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Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 18, 2004, 04:22:04 PM I've been playing mostly to gain experience and get free signup bonuses lately. I played on EmpirePoker for about 8 hours total a couple weeks ago, ended up forty dollars, plus a hundred-dollar signup bonus, and cashed out all my chips including my winnings.
Now, I get a message in my e-mail offering me a second "upload bonus" of 25% if I come back and put more money into the site. Up until this point, I'd seen plenty of sign-up bonuses, but never a re-upload bonus. Is it common for online poker sites to offer re-upload bonuses, and if so, is there a specifically good way to get the site to offer it to you? With so many experienced online players in the WT -- or now F13? :) --community, I figure you guys would be a good source of knowledge on this. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: schild on March 18, 2004, 04:23:51 PM Here's a link to the original thread.
http://waterthread.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=23 Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 18, 2004, 04:32:48 PM Party/Empire seems to offer them every couple of months or so. Pokerstars rarely does. Check link->bonuswhores (http://www.bonuswhores.com/) <-link for a fairly comprehensive list.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 19, 2004, 09:04:01 PM Whee...this hand made my night. Also, fuck all you bastards who made me sign up and buy into Poker Stars.
PokerStars Game #343893640: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:38:50 (ET) Table 'Drakonia' Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: Lion6869 ($53 in chips) Seat 2: JackPlaya ($156.80 in chips) Seat 3: Rodderz ($237.80 in chips) Seat 4: Pryde ($139.70 in chips) Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($113.90 in chips) Seat 6: mark65 ($100 in chips) Seat 7: AAORBUST ($253 in chips) Seat 8: Frozzor ($654.80 in chips) Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($268.30 in chips) Frozzor: posts small blind $1 UsedCarGuy!: posts big blind $2 mark65: posts big blind $2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to TheMadMadman [3s 3d] Lion6869: folds JackPlaya: folds Rodderz: folds Pryde: folds TheMadMadman: calls $2 mark65: checks AAORBUST: calls $2 Frozzor: calls $1 UsedCarGuy!: checks *** FLOP *** [Qs 3h Qh] Frozzor: checks UsedCarGuy!: checks TheMadMadman: bets $2 mark65: folds AAORBUST: folds Frozzor: raises $2 to $4 UsedCarGuy!: folds TheMadMadman: raises $28 to $32 Frozzor: raises $620.80 to $652.80 and is all-in TheMadMadman: calls $79.90 and is all-in *** TURN *** [Qs 3h Qh] [As] *** RIVER *** [Qs 3h Qh As] [2c] *** SHOW DOWN *** Frozzor: shows [Qc Ks] (three of a kind, Queens) TheMadMadman: shows [3s 3d] (a full house, Threes full of Queens) TheMadMadman collected $230.80 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $233.80 | Rake $3 Board [Qs 3h Qh As 2c] Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: JackPlaya folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: Pryde folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: TheMadMadman showed [3s 3d] and won ($230.80) with a full house, Threes full of Queens Seat 6: mark65 folded on the Flop Seat 7: AAORBUST (button) folded on the Flop Seat 8: Frozzor (small blind) showed [Qc Ks] and lost with three of a kind, Queens Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! (big blind) folded on the Flop Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 19, 2004, 10:25:07 PM Nice pot, Madman. LOVE flopping sets (err, make that boats) and getting action =)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 19, 2004, 10:55:16 PM Yeah, I almost folded out when he re-raised off my fairly big (for a $1/$2 table), thinking that however unlikely he had either Q's full of 3's or 4 Q's, but I decided to just say fuck it and see what he had. Needless to say, my heart was beating a little bit fast as the turn and river came out.
Here are a couple more hands, played about 6 hands after that boat. I will paste them in order played. The first hand shown, I have lost 4 bucks since the boat (payed to see a flop and a big blind). Yes its long, I am lazy, so I am just cut and pasting the whole thing. *********** # 8 ************** PokerStars Game #343908097: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:46:40 (ET) Table 'Drakonia' Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: Lion6869 ($50 in chips) Seat 2: JackPlaya ($144.80 in chips) Seat 3: Rodderz ($234.80 in chips) Seat 4: Pryde ($169.70 in chips) Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($226.80 in chips) Seat 6: mark65 ($82 in chips) Seat 7: AAORBUST ($275.85 in chips) Seat 8: Frozzor ($514.90 in chips) Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($264.95 in chips) TheMadMadman: posts small blind $1 mark65: posts big blind $2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to TheMadMadman [Ts Ks] AAORBUST: calls $2 Frozzor: folds UsedCarGuy!: calls $2 Lion6869: folds JackPlaya: calls $2 Rodderz: folds Pryde: folds TheMadMadman: calls $1 mark65: checks *** FLOP *** [Kd Ad Th] TheMadMadman: bets $2 mark65: calls $2 AAORBUST: folds UsedCarGuy!: calls $2 JackPlaya: calls $2 *** TURN *** [Kd Ad Th] [7s] TheMadMadman: bets $10 mark65: folds UsedCarGuy!: calls $10 JackPlaya: calls $10 *** RIVER *** [Kd Ad Th 7s] [2c] TheMadMadman: bets $10 Pryde said, "2 pair, middle pair, whatever" UsedCarGuy!: calls $10 JackPlaya: folds *** SHOW DOWN *** TheMadMadman: shows [Ts Ks] (two pair, Kings and Tens) UsedCarGuy!: shows [7c Ac] (two pair, Aces and Sevens) UsedCarGuy! collected $65 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $68 | Rake $3 Board [Kd Ad Th 7s 2c] Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: JackPlaya folded on the River Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: Pryde (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: TheMadMadman (small blind) showed [Ts Ks] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens Seat 6: mark65 (big blind) folded on the Turn Seat 7: AAORBUST folded on the Flop Seat 8: Frozzor folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! showed [7c Ac] and won ($65) with two pair, Aces and Sevens *********** # 7 ************** PokerStars Game #343910263: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/19 - 23:47:50 (ET) Table 'Drakonia' Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: Lion6869 ($50 in chips) Seat 2: JackPlaya ($130.80 in chips) Seat 3: Rodderz ($234.80 in chips) Seat 4: Pryde ($169.70 in chips) Seat 5: TheMadMadman ($202.80 in chips) Seat 6: mark65 ($78 in chips) Seat 7: AAORBUST ($273.85 in chips) Seat 8: Frozzor ($514.90 in chips) Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! ($305.95 in chips) mark65: posts small blind $1 AAORBUST: posts big blind $2 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to TheMadMadman [9h 9c] Frozzor: folds UsedCarGuy!: calls $2 Lion6869: folds JackPlaya: folds Rodderz: folds Pryde: folds TheMadMadman: raises $8 to $10 mark65: folds AAORBUST: calls $8 UsedCarGuy!: calls $8 *** FLOP *** [4c Jh 2c] AAORBUST: checks UsedCarGuy!: checks TheMadMadman: bets $10 AAORBUST: calls $10 UsedCarGuy!: folds *** TURN *** [4c Jh 2c] [Jd] AAORBUST: checks TheMadMadman: bets $10 AAORBUST: calls $10 *** RIVER *** [4c Jh 2c Jd] [Ts] AAORBUST: bets $42 TheMadMadman: calls $42 *** SHOW DOWN *** AAORBUST: shows [4h 8h] (two pair, Jacks and Fours) TheMadMadman: shows [9h 9c] (two pair, Jacks and Nines) TheMadMadman collected $152 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $155 | Rake $3 Board [4c Jh 2c Jd Ts] Seat 1: Lion6869 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: JackPlaya folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Rodderz folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: Pryde folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: TheMadMadman (button) showed [9h 9c] and won ($152) with two pair, Jacks and Nines Seat 6: mark65 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 7: AAORBUST (big blind) showed [4h 8h] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fours Seat 8: Frozzor folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: UsedCarGuy! folded on the Flop Poker Stars counts up from the last hand, so that is why the hand numbers are backwards. The first hand I was betting semi-hard on the K/T pairs and UsedCarGuy just followed my lead and took me. The second hand the guy tried to buy me out on the river, but I wasn't falling for it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 20, 2004, 02:40:17 PM IMO, on that last hand AAORBUST made some critical mistakes -- should have check-raised when the second jack hit and you came out betting.
Anyone else agree or disagree with that? Of course, grats on the money wins. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 20, 2004, 04:04:51 PM Here is the hand that pissed me off today. I don't think it needs any explination.
Code: PokerStars Game #344646185: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/20 - 12:56:23 Shit I didn't even realize I had the flush. I thought I just had the A high straight on the turn. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 20, 2004, 05:37:10 PM But this hand later in the day made up for that crappy hand earlier:
Code: PokerStars Game #345298578: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/03/20 - 19:54:11 You gotta like that and with the couple small wins I had after that hand it means I am up 259.15 (a total of 359.15) from when I bought into Poker Stars a couple of days ago. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 20, 2004, 05:57:47 PM I can't believe people are bluff raising for 50 bucks against a flush board. Those games look totally crazy.
I'd get pretty mad if someone was calling out hands like that one guy while action was still pending. BTW, playing Q3d against a pre-flop raise isn't a very good play. Seriously -EV. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 20, 2004, 06:19:06 PM The guy was talking about the hand before I believe, I know it wasn't about the hand being played. Yeah, the guy who bluff raised is the same one I took for a bunch of money the other night with a flopped boat, that you can see that hand a bit earlier in this thread.
And yeah, normally I wouldn't call a pre-flop raise with the Q3d, but I since I was already in for 2 bucks I figure I might as well be in for 4 more. I consistently see about 50% of the flops as long as I have something semi-decent and nobody has raised pre-flop, at least on a small table. I am sure if I was on a higher blind table, I wouldn't see so many flops. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 20, 2004, 06:31:34 PM Gotcha. It looked like he was talking about what you may have as you had middle two pair.
Q3s is not a very good hand even for one bet because it is dominated, makes lots of second best hands and you will get trapped for raises with it. I would only play it in very late position after at least 4 limpers. Even then I would probably muck it. It is a trash hand. If you are seeing the flop 50% of the time, you are playing way too loose. I drool over people that have stats like that in my pokertracker DB. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 20, 2004, 06:38:48 PM Quote from: Mediocre IMO, on that last hand AAORBUST made some critical mistakes -- should have check-raised when the second jack hit and you came out betting. AAORBUST misplayed every street. Should have folded pre-flop. Folded on the flop. Folded on the turn and, if still around, check-folded on the river. It looks like Gus Hansen disease has infected these games. I may have to go over there and check it out. PS isn't my favorite site, but if these hands are representative, it is a fish pond. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Murgos on March 20, 2004, 07:13:26 PM Quote from: Madman And yeah, normally I wouldn't call a pre-flop raise with the Q3d... http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 20, 2004, 07:36:03 PM Well, I have been sitting at the $1/$2 NL tables, so for me if nobody has raised preflop then I will throw in my 2 bucks if I have something interesting. And if I have already put bet the two bucks and someone raises after that then chances are I will fold unless I am holding something decent. I just decided to go with the Q3d after the raise because there had been a few pre-flop raises that ended up not having shit and folding somewhere down the line at that table. It's the same reason I didn't fold out when Frozzor came out raising hard on the river, I had watched him bluff a few times.
Also, just because I pay 2 bucks to see the flop doesn't mean I will go any farther unless everyone checks, I don't go chasing the turn or river. My thinking is that you can't win if you don't play and I think of the 2 bucks as basically an ante. It is called gambling for a reason. In fact, here is my current stats from poker stars: 402 hands played and saw flop: - 37 times out of 55 while in small blind (67%) - 44 times out of 53 while in big blind (83%) - 97 times out of 294 in other positions (32%) - a total of 178 times out of 402 (44%) Pots won at showdown - 30 out of 53 (56%) Pots won without showdown - 33 So it's a bit under 50% for seeing the flop, but I think I have a pretty good percentage heading into a showdown. I will also freely admit that my showdown percentage is dragged down a little bit from a few cheap 'keep you honest' bets. Overall, I don't think I am doing too bad, although I am sure I could be a bit better too. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 20, 2004, 08:49:30 PM It is called gambling for a reason
I'm not trying to bust on you man, just talking. But, if you think playing poker is gambling, you have a long way to go to be a good player. Gambling has nothing to do with poker. I still think you are playing way too loose, but if that is your style and you don't chase, you can play that way if you do it right. Your variance will be huge though. I'm not all that familiar with him, but from reading that site Abdul's hand rankings are looser than Sklansky (which is fine) but are quite dependent upon position and type of game. I will ocasionally (although very rarely) call with Q3s late after many limpers because of the implied odds, but it is still a garbage hand. You will just make lots of second best hands (outkicked on pairs, second or third best flushes, etc) which are very expensive. Go to twodimes.net and play around with scenarios and you will see how few times it wins against various hands. Qxs isn't even ranked in Sklasky and Malmouth's rankings in HPFAP. Q8s (as it still has straight possibilities) is a category 7 (second lowest) hand in HPFAP and the lowest they go on a suited card to play with a Q. 402 hands is a tiny, tiny sample. It looks like you are only VIPing (voluntary putting money in pot) around 35-38 percent (when you include the SB), which is still pretty loose, but much better than 50%. My VIP is 21.55 percent after 20,262 hands. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 20, 2004, 09:20:57 PM I know you aren't busting my chops. I also realize that poker is a bit more than gambling, but you no matter how well you play you are always taking a chance (although sometimes a small chance) and thus it gambling. And especially for me as I consider it mostly entertainment, I don't plan on trying to make a living off of it (although winning just over 250 bucks in 2 days (or about 5-6 hours of gaming) is pretty nice.
I realize that the amount of hands I have played is relatively minor and yeah I did forget that I tend to see a lot of the flops when I am either the big or small blind. So that does inflate the total percentage a bit. I do tend to play the small blind a bit more than I probably should as long as there isn't a raise, again my thinking is I am already in for $1 so I might as well put in the other $1 to see the flop. I am sure that as long as I stay on low stakes tables, I will always play a bit loose. Hell, I am sure that I would still play a little loose on higher stakes tables, although probably not as loose as a low stakes table. It's just the way I play and yeah I know it will cost me occasionally. I just have to make sure it doesn't cost me all that often. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 20, 2004, 11:17:59 PM Madman: If you're serious about playing to win money, I would strongly suggest that you switch to limit hold'em. No-limit online play can have swings that are literally insane -- even in limit, a swing of 50-100BB's ain't too uncommon for a highly experienced player.
The fact that you've made money, thus far, on no limit is all well and good -- but you must realize, you're on the upside of a trend channel that, over time, you will end up inside of. Your best bet is to stop playing no-limit now and not look back. IMO, the best way to make money at low-limit hold'em (.50/1 or 1/2) is to play a very high number of tables at once -- sometimes as many as four or six tables -- and play with only your most premium hands -- maybe adding in low pairs and Axs to mix things up from time to time if your current load isn't too high. Even playing six tables, sometimes you'll be twiddling your thumbs for a bit, and it's rare you'll be playing more than one or two tables at once. Tight, aggressive play like this will win you significant sums of money in the long term. Will you lose a few value bets here and there since you're not watching any individual table quite as closely? Sure. There are times when you could have stolen the blinds or wish you had been watching a bit closer to know an individual opponent's style. But on the whole, these slight negatives are outweighed by the positives of playing many tables tightly and aggressively at once. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 22, 2004, 12:32:50 AM This is half right. You will experience huge swings playing NL, but at the same time it is the quickest way to make money if you are significantly better than your opponents.
I played some NL briefly but it was above my bankroll. I got someone all in with AK and I had KK when the flop was K rag rag, then lost to running clubs for a flush. (The AK wasn't even suited) Lost $30 on that hand. In the long run plays like that would make me ton of money, you just have to have the bankroll to cover it. I didn't. (I mean, I could cover the $30, but it was a signficant part of my bankroll) Quote from: Mediocre Madman: If you're serious about playing to win money, I would strongly suggest that you switch to limit hold'em. No-limit online play can have swings that are literally insane -- even in limit, a swing of 50-100BB's ain't too uncommon for a highly experienced player. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 22, 2004, 09:47:18 AM Quote a total of 178 times out of 402 (44%) Pots won at showdown - 30 out of 53 (56%) Those numbers scare me. I try to keep my flops seen % between 20-27% (it can run into the low 30s for a session if I catch a lot of cards). IMHO 44% is WAY too loose. 56% of showdowns won is too low as well...you are paying people off all the way to the river 44% of the time! You obviously shouldn't have 100% (since you would only be playing the mortal nuts, and miss getting paid with a lot of hands that were good), but it should be far above 56%- say 75% or more. I think you would see a decent upswing in your variance and your overall bankroll if you tightened up preflop- this would reduce your flop seen % (obviously), and would likely also raise your showdowns won %- if you quit seeing flops with hands that are likely to be 2nd best when they hit (like Q3s), then you won't be around to pay the guys who are playing AQ or AXs off on the river with your bad kicker or 3rd best flush. As for Sklansky v Abdul- I think Sklansky is much better for inexperienced players. It is better to start a little too tight, and learn to loosen up with experience than to go the other way around. I don't strictly play Sklansky's hand groupings any longer because I have a solid understanding of what I can play and when I can play it (and can adjust to the current table mood on the fly). I tend to play a bit tighter than Abdul likes, but I am definitely looser than Sklansky (more because of online game conditions than anything). If you don't have it yet, download the demo for Poker Tracker (www.pokertracker.com). I finally broke down and paid for the full version, and just finished importing about 20k hands. I can already see that I am a bit less aggressive preflop than I should be, and can see what sort of hands get me in trouble (I must overplay KK, for example, since it is a loser for me overall-this SHOULD change as I get more hands into the tracker). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 22, 2004, 11:08:02 AM Quote Those numbers scare me. I try to keep my flops seen % between 20-27% (it can run into the low 30s for a session if I catch a lot of cards). IMHO 44% is WAY too loose. 56% of showdowns won is too low as well...you are paying people off all the way to the river 44% of the time! You obviously shouldn't have 100% (since you would only be playing the mortal nuts, and miss getting paid with a lot of hands that were good), but it should be far above 56%- say 75% or more. The numbers in general also depend on how often you are playing shorthanded. I usually play the 6-man tables and my flop % is usually around 35%. I'm usually winning decently if my win % is 60% or better and winning a lot if my win % is 75%+. My win % tends to go down since I find that I'm losing around 10% of my showdowns on rag hands from the BB where I never put in another $. I guess I should bet at the river more often on these once it's checked down to the end to try and take it uncontested by I have a hard time betting on a 27o or similar crap. I need to get around to registering Poker Tracker myself. I filled up the 1000 hands pretty quickly. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 22, 2004, 11:44:23 AM Quote The numbers in general also depend on how often you are playing shorthanded. I usually play the 6-man tables and my flop % is usually around 35%. Good point- I normally play full (9-10 player) tables. Shorthanded, the value of hands go up, so seeing the flop more often is a good plan. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 22, 2004, 11:53:45 AM A note about my pot at showdowns. That number is a little low because I have called a few cheap bets (and probably a few I shouldn't have called) on people who had been bluffing on the table a bit. Yeah, it's probably something I should control a bit more. It is also low from fuckers chasing the river and popping their straight, flush, 2nd pair, etc. Of course that is probably a bit my fault, since I should have either A) bet more on the flop/turn or B) done something else different (although I am not sure what).
Also Way, as Abagadro pointed out (and it was something I didn't even think about), my VIP percentage is more like 35% or so. As my stats point out, I rarely fold preflop if I am the big or small blind if there hasn't been a raise. Obviously I am much more likely to fold preflop as the small blind, especially if there has been a raise. But a lot of times if I am the small blind and nobody has raised the big blind, then I will just toss in the other $1 to see the flop and consider it an ante (probably not a good way to think, but screw it it's fun). After all even the low percentage hands can get a nice set on the flop occasionally. I realize that isn't a good way to play, but as I said I am not really trying to make money off of it, I am just having fun with it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 22, 2004, 02:01:31 PM I received a good education on why mediocre hands are costly this weekend. I was on a very bad runs of cards in a B&M game and was getting really bored (which is a leak of mine) so I started playing hands I would never think of playing most of the time. Qxs, Axo, low two-gappers, etc.
The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds. What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great. My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds. Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc. If I was disciplined I probably could have gotten away from these hands, but the very factors that led to me PLAYING these hands led me to stick around. Not good poker at all. This plus getting my floped set of jacks beaten by a flopped set of As made it a bad session. Luckily I made it all up when I switched to Omaha-8 Hi/Lo which is my new favorite game as many people have no clue how to play it, but do anyways. Plus the bad beat on it was $40,000 which I missed by ONE FREAKING CARD when my quad tens beat a guy's broadway straight with 4 cards to the royal with the Q of diamonds on the board instead of a Q of hearts. 20k didn't fall into my pocket because it was the wrong red queen. Grrrr. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 22, 2004, 02:14:46 PM Quote The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds. What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great. My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds. Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc. Bingo- EXACTLY what I was trying to impart to Madman earlier. Quote This plus getting my floped set of jacks beaten by a flopped set of As made it a bad session. Arrgh! I hate that. I lost a monster pot earlier this week with KK (capped preflop). Made Ks full of Tens on the turn; river was an A to make my opponent As full. I nearly vomited. I have never played O/8 live- I do like it, though. The first 'real' 0/8 tourney I ever played I placed 3rd out of 60 or so, and have been in love ever since =) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 22, 2004, 02:46:48 PM Sets over sets are very expensive as you just have to go to war with them becuase sets are so dominant most of the time. Luckily after the guy went 4 bets with me on the flop I was confident I knew what he had and check-called the turn and river (in a spread game, so they weren't even BBs). I told him only one hand could beat me after putting in my last bet, but I thought he had it. He did. I just couldn't bring myself to fold it, but at least minimized the damage.
O-8 players lin B&M seem terrible IMO. They don't look at the starting hands right, put in lots of bets with non-nut draws, especially on the low side, and half the time don't even read the board right or think you can use one card to make a hand. Plus, they think that any hand with A2 is the greatest thing ever and never even consider the possibility of being quartered. Easy to feast on if you know what you are doing. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 22, 2004, 05:03:36 PM Quote from: WayAbvPar Quote The problem isn't calling pre-flop and then totally missing your hand and folding (which is costly, but not that big of deal with low blinds/no raises) or when you hit your monster or a good draw to the monster with the right odds. What cost me money was making hands that were good, but not great. My top pair would come with no kicker, gut-shot straights would appear and entice me onward with potential implied odds. Bottom or middle pair would hit and I would convince myself that others were playing overcards, etc. Bingo- EXACTLY what I was trying to impart to Madman earlier. Yeah, I got that Way. If I play those good but not great hands, I try to keep it as cheap as possible and usually check bet as much as I can. Part of the reason my showdown percentage is low as a couple of them have gone to the showdown. I try not to get overconfident in those situations, but occasionally it has gotten the best of me. Again it is something I have to work on if I plan on playing a lot more. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 22, 2004, 05:24:50 PM Anyone want to give us the basics of Omaha, for us hold'em players that want to meet a lot of fish? :)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on March 22, 2004, 06:07:36 PM Omaha confuses me, I tried playing it but I just couldn't figure out what was a good starting hand and what wasn't. Any help or reading material you could throw my way would be appreciated.
After I am done with work this week I plan on getting back into Hold 'Em full swing. Going to rebuy into Party for much more than I normally do and try to legitamately turn this into a nice second income. We'll see how it goes. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 22, 2004, 09:02:45 PM Here is a real basic overview.
There are different versions of Omaha, but the main ones are straight high and Omaha 8 Hi-Lo split (usually called Omaha 8). Betting and the progression of cards is exactly like Hold 'Em, i.e. pre-flop, flop, turn, river. The big difference is you get 4 cards pre-flop instead of two. You also HAVE TO USE TWO AND ONLY TWO OF YOUR CARDS in making your best hand. This is where people get tripped up. You can't fit one card into a coordinated board to make a hand, also can't play the board. You must use two cards to make a hand. Omaha high is pretty straight forward. High hand wins using two of your cards. High-low split you can use two separate sets of two cards in your hand (can use same card for both) and the low must qualify by having 5 different cards 8 or under. Wheels count both ways and are great hands (A-5 straight). High and low hands in O-8 split the pot. You try to play hands that play well both ways, i.e. a draw to good high hands and low. People play too many middle pairs which are nearly worthless in O-8. Best starter in O-8 is AA23 with only two suits. The best thing to go for is the "scoop" where you have the high and the low or at least a high and a share of the low. If you play just to the low, you often get "quartered" where the high takes 1/2 the pot and two people split the low. This is a way to lose lots of money. You often also get counterfeited. Say you are holding an A2TT and the board is 3 6 7 K. You are holding the nut low and are feeling pretty good. A 2 or ace hits the river and your low hand is counterfeited. If a 2 hits, the nut low is now A4. If an A hits, the nut low is now 2-4. (7632A vs. 7432A). O-8 is a nut game if it is loose. You need the nuts or a draw to the nuts or you should fold. Tighter games play different. For reading, I suggest Ray Zee's High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players (2+2 publishing) after you get the basics of play. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 23, 2004, 07:01:45 AM Damn I wrote up a good Omaha guide last night, then hit some random key on my keyboard switched screens...
Anyway, the difficult thing for a Holdem player is that in Omaha tons of starting hands look good. You will see a lot of pocket pairs, even pocket trips, that sort of thing. There are a huge number of potential hands you can have, evaluating them is not quite as simple as Holdem. AA23 double suited is a good hand. AA24, AA34, etc are also good if you can flop your key card. Don't overplay A2, that is the #1 way people lose money, getting quatered or counterfeited playing A2. High pairs are good starting hands. Trips and quads are TERRIBLE starting hands. Remember you have to play EXACTLY 2 of your hole cards, so AA is worse than AA. (No way you can hit trips) As Abagadro said, in loose Omaha games you will see a ton of nut hands, 4 of a kind, etc. In tighter games....it's tough, you really need experience, because the range of hands people could have is so wide. My best advice when you look at your hands is to forget Holdem and ask yourself "in the range of all starting 4 cards hands, is this a good one?" Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 23, 2004, 08:03:01 AM Quote Sets over sets are very expensive as you just have to go to war with them becuase sets are so dominant most of the time. I had a crushing hand that stopped me from playing for a few days last week. It was a horrible end to a session where I just couldn't get going. I had already played for 3 hours and was dead even and then this hand: I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop. Flop comes a beautiful 4h-8s-Qd rainbow. I check, it checks around, button raises, I reraise, all fold to the button who calls. Turn comes a blank Jd. I bet out, reraise, reraise, cap. I figure at this point I have the ideal situation, either a 2-pair or a lower set. River comes a 2d putting the 3-flush on the board. Given the beats I have taken at this table warning bells start going off, all night I've been getting beaten by flushes because these are all any-2-sooted type players. I bet out and get raised. At this point I just call with a bad feeling. Sure enough he shows 4d8d for the flopped 2 pair and the backdoor flush and takes down the pot. I just didn't know what to do about this hand. It was the end of a series of beats like this and I just had to take a break which turned into a 3 day poker hiatus. The worst part was there was no one to blame for this other than really bad luck. He was right in betting hard w/ the 2 pair and the backdoor flush. No way I can not cap the (current) nuts on the turn fearing a backdoor flush. I could have raised pre-flop but that would not have gotten rid of this player, I'm 100% sure of that. Poker is just so frustrating when you can play things just right and still lose a big pot. Any thoughts on whether or not I could have gotten away from this hand earlier or if I should have slowed earlier than I did? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 23, 2004, 08:20:47 AM That is indeed a beat. I think you played it fine after the flop and I would have played it the same way. But I don't like this thinking:
Quote I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop. If you want to vary play because of certain factors or try to trap, fine (these opportunities are few and far between in normal LL play however). You don't want to raise here to get people out. You want to raise because you have the best hand. It may not have gotten him out, but it may have. It may have convinced him you had the set when you went to war on the flop & turn. Who knows. But that isn't really the issue. You want people calling bets when they don't have the odds, basically making mistakes, which calling a raise pre-flop with 84s would certainly be. Even someone holding a K or A is a 4-1 dog on the flop to hit the overcard. If more than one person is holding one, the odds for you are even better for you. It seems to me that most bad players in LL think every time you raise you have AK so you might as well raise other stuff like high pairs as you often get paid off when you hit over-pairs and sets when no A or K is on the board. It likely wouldn't have mattered on this hand, but in general I think your reasonsing pre-flop is incorrect. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 23, 2004, 09:06:33 AM You're probably right about the pre-flop. I've become very weak-tight pre-flop lately then change gears post flop and become tight-aggressive. Lately the only time I've been raising pre-flop is either when I'm opening or when I'm holding a tier 1 hand (AA, KK, AKs).
I think this changed because of my limited stats in poker tracker. In my 1000 hands (I need to register) it showed I was winning a good bit on pocket K's, pocket A's, losing a good bit on Q's & J's, and winning a lot or losing a little on the rest (10's - 2's). My other reasoning is that even holding AKo the games are so passive that I can't be sure I'm holding the best hand. Likely somone else is limping a pocket pair of some sort. It's not neccessarily scared money since I've dropped back down to .50/1 since I wasn't comfortable with the bankroll swings at 1/2 even though I was winning a little. I'll move back up once I get $600 back into my account. It's more just trying to figure out which plays are +EV. It just seemed like I was folding too many of the AKo, AQo, Q's, J's type hands after the flopped missed me or brought overcards to my pairs. I have about 3000 more hands stored to import into poker tracker so once I get that registered hopefully I'll know more.... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 23, 2004, 09:12:44 AM Quote Yeah, I got that Way. I wasn't trying to pick on ya- Abagadro just happened to make a lot more sense saying the same thing that I did, so I wanted to make sure everyone reading knew THAT was what I was talking about =) Quote I get dealt QQ in the BB. 3 limpers to me so I just check knowing a raise gets no one to fold and I'm beat by any K or A on the flop. As mentioned, you aren't going to raise this to chase folks out necessarily- it is likely the best hand preflop, and being such, you need to bet it...raises destroy the odds for people playing draw hands (I guess 4d8d falls in that category, but I wouldn't play that anywhere outside of a blind). If you make them pay preflop, they have a decision to make if the flop doesn't make their hand right away. In your particular case, a preflop raise MIGHT have made him lay it down. After the flop, there is no way you are chasing him away (and rightly so- he had every reason to think he had the best hand all the way, since you didn't raise preflop). Flopping top set and getting outdrawn (especially by runner runner non-nut flushes) just fucking sucks all the way around. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 23, 2004, 09:16:41 AM Just FYI, QQ and JJ are both category 1 hands in HPFAP.
I think QQ loses more money after the flop when you fall in love with it against heavy action or an overcard and don't dump it. Registration is well worth it for pokertracker. Both because it is nice to have the big db and because it is a good product with good support so I feel good about paying for it. Checking my stats, I raise 94% with QQ and have a 48% win rate on it. It's my fifth best starter. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 23, 2004, 09:31:10 AM Forgot to mention this in my previous post- my buddy and I stole the idea of an Open Internet Challenge, and started last night. See below-
Quote OIC Structure (for the uninitiated) Start at .50/1 with $50 and play until you have $100. Move to 1/2 and play until you have $200, it you bankroll falls to $50 you MUST drop down to .50/1 and work your way back up. Move to 2/4 and play until you have $300, if you fall to $100 drop to 1/2. Move to 3/6 and play until you have $500, if you fall to $150 drop to 2/4. Move to 5/10 and play until you have $1000, if you fall to $250 drop to 3/6. Move to 10/20 and play until you have $1500, if you fall to $500 drop to 5/10. Move to 15/30 and play until you have $2000, if you fall to $750 move 10/20. Anyone else care to join us? More an exercise in intellectual masturbation than anything else, but it might be fun. I started last night before I had to take off, and worked my way up to $76. $1/$2 is in my sights! =) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 23, 2004, 09:40:54 AM I've been tempted to try something like that just for a goof, but I'm worried the focus on bankroll would alter my playing (for the worse). Who knows, maybe it would improve it.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 23, 2004, 09:51:40 AM Quote OIC Structure (for the uninitiated) Start at .50/1 with $50 and play until you have $100. Move to 1/2 and play until you have $200, it you bankroll falls to $50 you MUST drop down to .50/1 and work your way back up. Move to 2/4 and play until you have $300, if you fall to $100 drop to 1/2. Move to 3/6 and play until you have $500, if you fall to $150 drop to 2/4. Move to 5/10 and play until you have $1000, if you fall to $250 drop to 3/6. Move to 10/20 and play until you have $1500, if you fall to $500 drop to 5/10. Move to 15/30 and play until you have $2000, if you fall to $750 move 10/20. Sounds fun but too aggressive. Moving up with a bankroll of only 50x BB is a bit too risky for me. I could probably handle it up till about 2/4 but then dropping $300 playing way over my bankroll would just feel like too much of a failure for me. I'll stick with my current safe plan: Quote Start at .50/1 with $150 and play until you have $300. Withdraw initial $150. Stay at .50/1 and play until you have $600, it you bankroll falls to $0 you MUST suck so quit playing. Move to 1/2 and play until you have $1200, if you fall to $400 drop to .5/1. Move to 2/4 and play until you have $1800, if you fall to $1000 drop to 1/2. Move to 3/6 and play until you have $3000, if you fall to $1500 drop to 2/4. Move to 5/10 and play until you have $6000, if you fall to $2500 drop to 3/6. Withdraw $1500 and repeat previous step. I settled into this gameplan about 2 months ago after dabbling around for a few months playing too many different games and formats. I've finally got a decent grip on playing Limit Hold-Em and plan to stick with it. I'm currently at step 3 w/ $480. I got antsy and jumped up to $1/$2 at $400, ran up to $550, then back down to $450 before settling back down at .50/1. Hopefully in the future I can avoid that early step up and stick w/ the gameplan. This is my gameplan on Poker Stars at least. I have some money on GamingClub that I use whenever I get a tournament itch and some money on Party Poker that I use to play Sit & Go's or just to dabble when I get bored. I got seriously lucky with free money on both of those sites so I've never actually made a deposit on either. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 23, 2004, 10:26:45 AM Quote from: Abagadro I've been tempted to try something like that just for a goof, but I'm worried the focus on bankroll would alter my playing (for the worse). Who knows, maybe it would improve it. See, that is why I think this will be fun- I think of it as a $50 investment (like a tourney fee), and I will keep it separate (on paper) from my actual bankroll. Treating it more like tourney money than anything. Of course, if I run it up to a couple of grand, I will probably jerk 90% of it out and pay some bills, but that is a ways down the road. In other news- got a call from a buddy a few minutes ago. He may have a seat for me in a home tournament tonight. He (in like his 2nd or third tourney ever) took 2nd last time, so I am hoping I can bring some of my experience to bear and mop up. The more likely result is wash out first, and have to reevaluate how I see myself as a player! Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 23, 2004, 10:51:02 AM Quote He (in like his 2nd or third tourney ever) took 2nd last time, so I am hoping I can bring some of my experience to bear and mop up. The more likely result is wash out first, and have to reevaluate how I see myself as a player! More likely the opposite unless they are some serious poker players. My friends and I play every other thursday. There is usually 6-8 of us and we play 3 $10 Sit&Go NLHE tournies. After the first night when I took 1st, 2nd, and 1st I started playing down a level to make the games more fun. Since it's amongst good friends it's more about having fun than it is winning money and having me winning 2/3 wouldn't be much fun for anyone else. My friends all watch the WSOP and WPT and got their lessons from the 1% of hands they actually show on the broadcasts. Just wait for your premiums and bleed them. It's best to not go all-in since that usually scared them off, just make pot sized bets each street and you'll have them all-in by the river. If you don't get premiums just fold, fold, fold and you'll eventually find yourself heads up since these tourny's are usually over long before the rising blinds put a dent in your stack. Also, if they are inexperienced players watch for the obvious tells. The most obvious is leaning forward or back as they think about what to do or between actions. Forward they are excited about having a good hand, backward they are nervous about what everyone else is doing. Also watch for the glance to the chips after the flop. That usually means they are thinking about how much to bet since they caught at least part of the flop. I should note that all of the above is based on small home tournies and won't apply if you're playing with 20+ people. If that's the case then pretend I'm not here since I've had horrible results in larger tournies. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 23, 2004, 01:25:40 PM You have to raise with QQ preflop. Raise when you have the best hand. 95% of the time when you have QQ you have the best preflop hand.
After the flop if you see an A or a K slow down. Get your money in when you have the best of it. Sure, an A or a K might come down. Then again, if you have AA the flop might come 3 of a suit you don't have. Last night I sat a table for 45 minutes without winning, picked up QQ, raised preflop and was reraised, capped, flop came down with a Q and no A or K, kept betting, won, and finished up for the night on that ONE hand. No matter what you hold, there is a decent chance you will end up losing. If you won't raise with QQ, what will you raise with? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 23, 2004, 01:43:16 PM Quote If you won't raise with QQ, what will you raise with? Like I said, lately I've been playing very weak-tight pre-flop. I've only been raising when first in or with K's or A's. Raising QQ from the BB with 3 limpers already in and knowing you won't get any of the 3 to fold just didn't seem to feel right. Looking back it would have been the right play since I was certainly ahead at the time. In the long run though it would have just cost me an additional small bet. I do need to get out of the weak-tight mode though since after thinking about it I was definately running better 2 weeks ago when I was coming in with a raise on most hands. The last week has been barely break even poker. I think it was the result of moving up in limits and also taking a number of bad beats like the set of Q's. IE... the other hand where I lost a set of J's to a guy who played his 3h6h flush draw to the river and hit it. I got used to taking those beats at .50/1 but moving up to 1/2 when the pots are twice as big ($20+) put me into a mode I didn't want to be. Good thing I made that post since it helped me look at my play a little more. Sorry for sharing the bad beat but thanks for the advice... I think we need a poker forum here... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 23, 2004, 01:47:35 PM Quote Good thing I made that post since it helped me look at my play a little more. Sorry for sharing the bad beat but thanks for the advice... Discussing and dissecting play afterwards is a great way to sharpen your game. I have learned a ton from discussions here and on other sites. Well worth the 'I hate the way you played that hand!' posts- a small shot to the ego helps open your eyes to a possible leak (at least, that is how it works for me). Obviously playing like a robot will only get you so far, but it is best to be well versed in the basics before playing like Gus Hansen (who would drive me CRAZY if I had to play against him). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 23, 2004, 01:49:16 PM Even though I don't have much experience, I would have to agree with everyone saying you should have raised preflop with QQ. I know for a fact that if I had the 84d hand, I definately would have stayed in on a BB preflop bet, but I would have folded out if anyone had raised.
I would also have to say that the 84d guy was probably a little nuts, because he should have been able to tell you had the 3 of a kind with all the reraising you were doing although you don't say the amounts. I had something similiar happen to me the other day and I haven't played since either. I had 99 in the hole, raised preflop (raised too little, but its a low pair), was reraised (someone going all in for about 7-8 bucks) and called with one other guy still in, so it's me and two others. Flop came down as 8s 9c Ks, so I am sitting on the 3 of a kind, it checks to me and I come out betting but betting fairly cheap (5 bucks) the guy not all in called and turn came out 7c, the guy bets the 5 bucks and I call. The river comes up Qs and the guy bets 21 bucks right off the bat. I hadn't actually realized there was a possible flush sitting on the board off the river, so I called right away and got busted by the flush. The guy who won didn't even have a pair on the board, he was holding an A3s. The guy who went all in was going for the flush but he was looking for hearts and ended up having a pair of kings. The moral of the story for me is that I should have been betting much more on the flop and turn to try and push the guy out before he made his river flush. Edit - I will also agree with Way about discussing and dissecting your play after the fact. It has helped me realize a few things that I should either be doing or not be doing. But of course I am a still rather inexperienced when it comes to playing holdem for money, but it's all fun. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 23, 2004, 02:00:11 PM I bought in for some to PokerStars. At first I started on the SNGs, as they seemed like a good way to learn. One thing I've picked up though in 18 player SNGs is they teach a style that's so aggressive you'll lose in the long run during regular play. It seems that everyone's racing to get a big pot heading into the final table where the blinds just start getting silly.
Then I started playing .25/50 limit and .50/1 limit. I did better at these tables and actually made some money back that I had lost in the SNGs (only placed in one that I tried). Then, I got stupid and played some no limit at the .5/1 table. I lost 2 big pots to river chasers. It was really hard to swallow and I've seemily been playing on tilt since. I'm still having problems laying down good hands when I get that feeling that perhaps my 3 queens are beaten by the one king that's showing and the guy that's betting like the word's about to end. There's also the problem that at the low dollar tables, seemily everyone limps into the pot and won't hestiate to call the raise. Then you get some jackass that has his low cards hit a favorable flop effectively killing your legitly good preflop hand. I dunno, I like Hold'Em so far. I'm not particularly good at it yet. I still see too many flops, hold my cards too long when I've got shit, and can't back down even though part of my brain is yelling "GET OUT". I have gotten better though: I pretty much consistantly am near the money on SNGs where before it'd be 50/50 chance that I'd even make the final table. I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but I'm perhaps thinking tennis or xbox might be more economical in my future. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 23, 2004, 02:09:52 PM Although I have only played the .50/1 NL table once, but I don't particularly like that table much because people seem much more willing to chase to the river unless you are betting really big. I much prefer the 1/2 NL tables because people seem to play a little tighter (which sometimes helps my slightly loose play) and are generally unwilling to chase to the river unless it's for low stakes.
Plus, I find myself playing even looser at the .50/1 table because I keep thinking 'Hey its only a buck or two on that preflop raise), instead of thinking 'Hey that is 4 bucks on the preflop raise, I better get out,' at the 1/2 buck tables. I also agree with Way when he said he actually prefers the NL tables because he can bust people who are playing bad hands to the river. Plus I feel that with my play style I would be much more tempted to chase to the river if there was a limit on the bets. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on March 23, 2004, 05:47:41 PM I have a question about how much time you guys spend playing each session. Do you have a set limit where you say, "If I make this much, I will stop", or do you set aside a certain amount of time?
I seem to mix and match a bit, but if I find I am down when I am ready to stop playing I try desperately to at least get back to even, which usually ends up with the result of me losing more money. Take this morning for example, I deposited $300 into Party. This is the money I am making my "run" with (I love huge tax returns), I sat down at the $25 buy in No Limit table and promptly lost my buy in in like 15 minutes. Then I decided to play some $1/$2 to catch up a bit. Where I lost another $25. Then I decided to play a $10 SnG and finished 4th, about 15 chips out of the money. Just a terrible run and now I am considerably behind. These are games I play often, none of them are new to me, I was just playing like shit. I know I should have stopped after the NL table because I could just feel the tilt writhing in me. But I am retarded. I did win back about $15 this afternoon before work started, which puts me down a total of around $45. So, when do YOU say when? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 23, 2004, 06:59:19 PM Ok Wayabvpar. I took up the challenge and am taking a beating at .5/1. Usually goes something like this. I have KK, raise, cold call from 5 people. I bet raise it all the way against a non-scary board and someone who called all the way with bottom pair hits their trips on the river.
EDIT: Okay, I have bailed on the challenge in a record 1 day. Micro drives me nuts and it's not worth the aggravation. :) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on March 23, 2004, 08:56:01 PM Typical suckout at low limits. Just suck it up and win it all back, it can't happen everytime he calls with crap. When he is down to the felt it will feel that much better.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 24, 2004, 12:08:19 AM Very important point: Don't raise to get people to fold, RAISE FOR VALUE.
Poker, especially non-tournament limit poker, is NOT about winning pots. It's about return on investment. (Unless you have a very low bankroll and will die to any variance) Say you have AA and all 8 people call. You should cap the betting pre-flop if you can, even knowing that you will probably lose. Why? Because when you DO win you win huge, and you will win more than your fair share of times. You are getting 8 to 1 on your money, but have a much better than 1/8 shot of winning. If I have QQ against 5 callers I will cap the betting, knowing I will probaby lose. Because I will win more than 1/5 times and am getting 5:1 on my money. With QQ against 5 callers I can probably win 1/3 of the time or more. Raising to get people out makes sense in a tourney or against people who play tight and will fold hands that had a decent chance of turning into winners. If you are ahead raising to get people out doesn't make sense. You WANT the people who are behind to call. That's more money for you. Don't worry about winning or losing pots. Return on investment is what matters. In the long run, raising when you have the best of it (or when you have a good shot of ending up with the best of it) is how to make money. ---- As far as winning at low limits, my advice is the same. If you are ahead, bet. If you are behind, fold. If you have AQ, raise. If you miss the flop, fold. The most important thing is don't bet unless you hit the flop hard, don't call unless you have tons of outs. (Because you are behind and plenty of other people have outs as well - what happens when you make your straight and that same card is the third of a suit?) Making money at low limits is easy. And the nice thing is, for that money you can experiment and figure out what works. If you play low limits like a NL tournament you will lose money hand over fist. Just wait till you are head and go crazy. Not many fancy plays, not many bluffs or traps, no betting to intimidate. Just wait till you hit something good then bet like a maniac and hope for the best. ---- How long to play: If you feel frustrated or on tilt, stop immediately. Other than that as long as you like. The second you find yourself thinking "oh, fuck it I'll just call" you should quit. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 24, 2004, 06:56:33 AM Ok. I have new question after last night. I worked on getting back into tight-aggressive mode pre and post-flop again. For the most part it was ok but I was getting horrible cards and a lot of suckouts. So, for 4 hours at the .50/1 tables I lost $18. I played 2 hours at Stars 6 man tables which was a $25 loss and 2 hours at Party 10 man tables for a $7 win.
My question is when you're drawing to the nuts. Is it right to bet out and/or raise/re-raise when you are getting good odds on your money. Example, you are playing Axs from the button and limp in. Flop comes with 2 of your suit on a non-paired board. So, you are now drawing to the nut flush. There are 5 people in the pot, UTG bets out and it's called around to you. Should you call or raise in this situation knowing that it's 90% that all 5 will call your bet? Your odds are 2:1 against hitting the flush but you're getting 5:1 on your money. I've been pushing the pot whenever this situation comes up but last night it cost me money as very few of my draws ever made it there. It was far less than the expected 1 out of 3 that should make. Should I back off on trying to maximize the pot when I am drawing to the nuts w/ good odds or should I keep pushing knowing the probability should come through and bring things back around eventually? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 24, 2004, 08:23:05 AM Quote from: UD_Delt Your odds are 2:1 against hitting the flush but you're getting 5:1 on your money. You answered your own question. If you can get 5 people to call 2 bets on a check raise, you should do it. It is also a bit dependent upon position. You can raise to try to get a free (really 1/2 priced) card if you are in late position. If you check raise the flop, you might get many to fold which hurts your implied odds or they may fold on the turn when you do hit, therefore reducing your win when you could have potentially check raised the turn for multiple BBs. They may also fold to a turn bet if you don't hit, which is good, because you are likely getting better hands to fold. As always, depends on the players and type of table you are playing on. My default policy is not to check raise draws like that, but just to bet out with them if I am in early position and raise them if I am in late position and there are enough people who will call the raise to meet my odds of hitting. Maybe not optimum play or varied enough, but at LL you really don't need to do much of that. You will go through LONG, excrutiating runs where your flopped four flushes and open-enders will not hit. Expensive yes, but you still have to play to the odds. To follow up on my OIC debacle of last night, I have officially foresworn micro limit poker. I could adjust my play style to fit it, but what's the point as I can win more in one hand at higher limits than an entire week of micro. I should play down there just to get my steaming under control as the beats are constant, but I would rather run over the O-8 games (which I did last night while grinding in the .5/1 game). Playing O-8 and HE at the same time is an interesting mental exercise. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 24, 2004, 09:52:13 AM Quote EDIT: Okay, I have bailed on the challenge in a record 1 day. Micro drives me nuts and it's not worth the aggravation. :) Chicken! =P Grinding through the first couple levels might be annoying, but I think the entire exercise is interesting. I guess you could start at $2/$4 or so and work up from there; I just like the small investment of $50 to start. Quote Playing O-8 and HE at the same time is an interesting mental exercise. LOL- Agreed. The first time I ever did that I nearly broke my head. Another fun one is Omaha High and 0/8 at the same time...watching all your nut low draws get there on the high board will drive ya batty! Re- Nut flush draws- I may occasionally bet out with them from early position (rare), but I almost never raise them unless there are only 1 or 2 folks left (who I may be able to drive out with a river bet). Draw hands thrive on implied odds, and betting extra before the hand is made cripples the implied odds (it is a nice change up play, however). Played in the home tourney to which I was invited last night. Only 7 starters @ $25 a head, so the money wasn't too big. Played tight for the first few rounds until I got a feel for the table, then kicked into normal tourney mode. My early tight play made it simple for me to steal quite a few pots with small holdings and keep my stack afloat. First turning point was against the buddy I came with- Held QTo on the button- I make it $300 to go (3XBB), my buddy in the small blind bumps it to $600, and BB folds. I have known this guy since high school, and he isn't above running a bluff at me (although I found out later that he rarely plays a hand against me any more without cards, since he is now intimidated by all my recent poker experience! LOL), so I call. Flop comes Q high rainbow. He bets $300. I like my hand, but am not thrilled with my kicker, so I call him. Next card is a blank. He bets out $500, and I call (I have top pair, and he isn't betting hard enough when compared to the pot to scare me away). River is a blank, and we both check. He rolls over AK, and I take down a decent sized pot (we started with 2k in chips, so this was a good pot). Biggest hand of the night- I get QQ in the bb, and raise it the minimum after two limpers (since I am getting very little action on my bigger raises, and I want to get paid); both limpers call. Flop comes Q2J, and I am reasonably content with my hand =). I check it. Bet is $500 (about 2/3 the pot). Other limper folds, and I hesitate for a few seconds and reluctantly call (I would like to thank the Academy...). Turn card is another duck, giving me a boat and putting a flush draw on the board. I quickly check. He goes all in, and I call before he can get his money in the pot. My buddy says "Wow, that was quick" (about my call of a scary all in bet), as I roll over my ladies. Monster pot, and I get the chip leader. We eventually bust my buddy, and it is heads up. (tourney pays 2 spots, + a $15 bounty on the first elimination). We duel for a bit, and I steal 3 or 4 pots in a row with preflop raises (I have about a 2-1 chip lead). Last hand- I am dealt KdQd, and I raise it to $600 (3xbb). He calls, and we see a flop- AJ5 rainbow. He bets $500, which is less than 1/2 the pot. I figure he isn't overly impressed with his hand (I think he would have either checked raised or bet out bigger with an A), so I call him, hoping to spike a T and end this. Next card is a 7 (completing the rainbow). He bets the same $500, and I think about it for a few seconds and call- the pot is getting big enough that I really want to see if I can river him, with the added bonus that I MIGHT have the best hand. River is a Q. He shoves the rest of his stack in ($1600+). Bugger...did that help him more than it helped me? Is he playing QJ? AQ? KT? I ponder the possibilities for a good minute or two...the pot is huge, and a fold gives him the chip lead. I finally decide to call him. He rolls over J8, and I win the tourney. BIG exhalation of relief. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 24, 2004, 12:10:25 PM Quote My question is when you're drawing to the nuts. Is it right to bet out and/or raise/re-raise when you are getting good odds on your money. If you REALLY are getting good odds. Important things to remember are the "nuts" might not be the nuts. What if the third suited card you need also pairs the board? If you have an Ace high flush going and two overcards I would bet for sure. If you have the ace as an overcard I would most likely also bet, but I might probably would not reraise for fear that some people would fold. On a hand like that you either want everyone to fold or you want everyone to call. A big mistake people make is they bet hoping for their key card, hit it and still lose. For example a straight beaten by a higher straight. But in general if there are a lot of callers and you are 4 to a nut flush I would bet, if you miss you got unlucky. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 24, 2004, 01:04:21 PM You will also trip a lot of people up betting with a draw and so many people play weak-tight that they can't even conceive of doing it. I have been paid off a lot when I bet the draw and then keep on betting when it hits. You often get raised and get a 3-bet in against someone bluffing or playing a baby-flush. Check-calling a four-flush board, check-calling a four-flush turn and then betting out on the river when the flush hits screams FLUSH and you won't get much action. If you go for the CR you will often get checked through at the LL.
My favorite is when I was playing at the Mandalay. I flopped a nut flush draw. Bet the flop. Call, call. Bet the turn with no flush. Call Call. Flush comes on the river. Bet. Guy looks at me and flat out asks: "You bet the flop and turn right?" I say "Ya". Okay "I'll raise". 3-bet. Call. Stack chips. I know that is what a lot of people think in these situations, but they rarely do it out loud. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 25, 2004, 06:55:48 AM Man I had another horrible night. That's about a 6 sessions in a row that haven't posted a decent win.
I was the king of getting sucked out last night. Lost on 2 sets, one to a backdoor flush and the other to a straight. Lost every top pair I played on the river it seemed. Lost most of my pocket pairs to garbage hands, ie... KK loses to a J high flop when other guy rivers another J. Lost AQ with an A on the flop to a passive AK. And on and on.... The hands I lost while putting money in behind the whole time are the following. Again, if you have the time or inclination let me know what you think. I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush. I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off. The other two were while I was playing AQ and KQ flopped an A and a K respectively. I bet out and lead the betting every street with my top pair second kicker and never get raised. At showdown someone pulls out AK to beat my kicker. I don't think those I could have played any differently. At the worst if raised I probably would have just lost more money so I should be thankful they were so passive. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 25, 2004, 07:28:47 AM Quote from: UD_Delt I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush. I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off. I think you just got suckered on the first hand there. When you raised on the button, the BB probably figures you are holding Ax, he checks the nut flop to keep you in the game and when the A comes on the turn he knows he has you set. He bets (you should figure he has an A now), you raise (thinking you have the high pair), he calls. With the heart coming down on the river he check bets you knowing that he still has the A high flush, so the only thing that can beat him is a boat, four of a kind or a straight flush. You don't mention that there are any pairs on the board, so he probably knows he has the winning hand, he checks to you, you bet and he raises then you call and lose. I am just guessing here, but I think your agressiveness preflop gave the game away and when the A comes on the turn he plays into your agressiveness and lets you build the pot for him. Bah - I am an idiot. I think you just got overconfident on the second hand. You figured that the 7's full of 8's would win the pot. You don't mention your the amount of your bets, so I have to assume they aren't all that big which keeps UTG in the game after the flop with his two pair. When his boat comes in on the turn he lets you lead the way and then takes you. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 25, 2004, 07:34:49 AM For the second hand after the turn the board was 8778. So, my 7 gave me 7's full. His 8 gave him 8's full. We both only played a single card on the board...
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: shiznitz on March 25, 2004, 07:35:24 AM Quote from: Madman Quote from: UD_Delt I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off. As for the second hand, I think you might have written it up wrong. I don't see how you managed to lose with a full house against a 10-8 off unless the river was a 10 and he pulled the higher boat. Unless I am reading it wrong. Delt had 7s over 8s while the other guy had 8s over 7s. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 25, 2004, 07:41:36 AM Yeah yeah, I realized that about 5 minutes after I wrote it. I edited my previous post to make it clear that I am an idiot.
Edit - My analysis of those two hands may very well be incorrect, so take it with a grain of salt. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: ArtificialKid on March 25, 2004, 08:55:19 AM Hey, so in a brilliant move Antigua challenged the U.S. restrictions against online gambling in WTO court, which ruled the restrictions unfair:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/36518.html Should have interesting results if upheld. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 25, 2004, 09:21:31 AM Thanks for the link, AK. Hopefully it leads to some relief down the road. Legalize it and skim a little off the top, Uncle Sam.
Quote I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush. That is tough. I like your raise on the turn- it gives you some good information, namely, that he isn't overly concerned with the flush on the board. This should set warning bells off in your head, and send you into check/call mode at the very least. I am not a fan of the river raise, since there are 4 cards that beat your flush, and all of them are in the 'playable' range. Tread carefully. Quote I'm in the BB and dealt 72o, ready to fold to any bet. UTG limps, 1 other limper + SB completes. Flop comes 877. Lucky flop for the worst hand. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, Fold, SB Folds. It's now heads up. Turn brings another 8. UTG will almost always call the small bet if he has over cards to the board so I think I'm still good. I bet, he again calls. Turn is a low blank. I bet, he raises, I call. He shows 10-8 off. That is just a bad suckout...it happens to everyone (especially ME!). If you happened to catch last night's WPT broadcast, there was a godawful suckout that looked really familiar to me- A7 suited goes all in, and is called by AA. 7 on the flop, 7 on the river, and the bullets get cracked. It was just like watching myself play online (when seeing wired aces, I immediately start guessing how I will get sucked out on...it is kind of a mini-game). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 25, 2004, 09:27:29 AM First hand. My question focuses mostly on what you put him on that you could push your marginal hand so hard. First, I think you are overvaluing A10o a bit here. It is a dominated hands in most circumstances, although short-handed it plays ok. The button raise pre-flop is ok for nothing else but to steal the blings or get heads up. When the flop comes down all one suit and the guy checks, this should be a major warning sign. Most people will take a shot with a bet regardless of what they have to try to steal it right there against a scary board like that. When the A comes and he bets, what did you put him on? I think you have to assume he has at least an A to make a turn bet like that. There is a 1 in 3 shot it is the Ah first of all, so he has the redraw also even if you have him outkicked. You are behind a made flush and also behind to AKo, AQo, AJo, Ax for two pair, etc. You are only ahead of about 5 or 6 hands of Ax wihtout the two pair. I think the raise is too aggressive. A call might be worth it, but there are only 2 1/2 BB in the whole pot (3 with his bet). Those aren't good enough odds for me and I fold.
The river brings the four flush and you only have a 10. You are thefore behind 4 higher hearts. He has shown he has at least an A or a made flush. Made flush would have re-raised you on the turn, so you have to figure you are either WAY ahead or WAY behind. If I'm still around I check the river through for the freebie showdown instead of walking into the CR. I wouldn't call the raise either. You walked into a monster, but there were many, many other hands that had you beat. What did you put him on that justified your play? Second Hand: Thats just an unfortunate trap hand that happens out of the blinds. Once the second 8 hits and someone stays around, you have to slow down at a minimum instead of assuming they have overcards. Other than that, played it fine. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 25, 2004, 09:48:30 AM Well, I've been trying the .5/1 limit with a 50 dollar buy in and so far it was going fine. Yesterday I ended 15 bucks up and by the next day at lunch I was 25 up total.
Then it was last night. It started off OK, I went a little down as I lost hands, mostly to my cards not hitting at all on the turn and losing my blinds and preflop calls. Then I got on a good role, I had won all 6 of the showdowns I had been involved in, but I just couldn't get anyone to fold with even very agressive betting and them having SHIT for cards. Then, a low point hit, I lost a hand I was pretty sure I was going to win because a river chaser hit his card when I went in with AA. Then it was tilt time and for the next 10 minutes I couldn't hit any cards, was making really bad calls, and eventually quit out at 10 bucks down from my previous balance (still 15 up). I'm getting frustrated with low limit because BAD POKER WINS. People clinging on to their low pair praying for the turn or river seems to pan out more times than not to people carrying actually legit cards. Overall, I do see myself playing better. For once I was actually bowing out of the small blind when I had jack for cards instead of buying in. I'd actually fold the big blind on raises when I had nothing. Baby steps, but I can see myself getting better even if I can't work on reading people because these low limit bastard river runners are impossible to interpret (I swear, they either have really good cards or are just praying for the river. They don't play you as a person at all. ). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 25, 2004, 09:48:58 AM To put the first hand in context, which I should have done to begin with, it was at a $1/$2 6 max table. At the time I think we were playing 5 handed. I had just come off a big pot ,my single big win last night, that I won on Pocket A's. The BB seemed like a decent player other than he fervently defended the blinds. If he was the BB he was going to play the hand regardless of who raised or how many raises were coming. He also made a lot of feeler bets where he would bet out and fold to a raise or check the next street if called.
The raise pre-flop I knew I wouldn't steal with but it would let him know I had big cards and if the flop came high I thought I'd be able to take it right there. With his turn bet on the A I figured him for a small pair and thought it was a feeler bet. I also didn't figure him for a heart as I thought he would bet the draw on the flop. After he called my raise I figured him for having played Ax where his x was the small pair and he had 2 pair but only called since he was worried about the 4 flush hitting and not having a heart. Once the 4 flush hit I thought I would have had it with any heart. Once he raised me I knew I had totally screwed up the hand but I called anyway. That was my thought process as I played it out and as you can see it was totally and completely wrong. I just assumed from the start that he didn't have a hand and was just defending his blind. I was wrong... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 25, 2004, 09:53:47 AM Quote I swear, they either have really good cards or are just praying for the river. They don't play you as a person at all. You are dead on here. I still make the mistake of thinking I'm building a table image so my raises will get respected. It never works. On the flip side it pays to be a rock because people don't pay attention any way and will still pay you off even if you only play monsters. Of course you have to get the starting cards and they have to hold up to be able to get that to work. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 25, 2004, 10:08:28 AM Quote I'm getting frustrated with low limit because BAD POKER WINS. People clinging on to their low pair praying for the turn or river seems to pan out more times than not to people carrying actually legit cards. Bad poker might win some pots, but good poker wins money. The important thing to remember is that it isn't who wins the most pots; it is all about winning the money. If you play tight aggressive poker, you will lose some small pots to crazy suckouts . However, when your big hands DO stand up, the pots are huge because you are jamming away with your monster hand and they chase everything to the river. As an example- I was grinding away at my OIC in the .5/1 tables. I lost pot after pot after pot to crappy suckouts, and finished down $20 (20 big bets!) $1 or $2 at a time. Bad run of cards combined with some bad luck. The good news is I will be back again to play the same good poker, and it will only take me 2 or 3 decent pots to be back to snuff and headed north again. An example of a HUGE pot (to which I was only a witness)- betting capped on every street- a flush and a straight are possible. 2 maniacs go to showdown for a $35 pot (35 BIG bets in a pot!)- one shows a straight, the other shows 2 PAIR! How this chimp could cap the betting all the way to the river when any straight, flush or set beats him is beyond me. However, he and his ilk are the ones who make this little game profitable for us. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 25, 2004, 10:21:49 AM Yah, it's funny what people will take to river when it's a flush board and you've flopped an ace high flush. I generally can get one or two people to tag along for the ride. I'll only really bow out if I know I'm holding a low flush (but I really don't call the blinds with shitty suited stuff like most do).
I'll probably keep ending up on the positive side as long as I stop making calls when I know in my gut I shouldn't. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 25, 2004, 10:29:08 AM Quote I'll probably keep ending up on the positive side as long as I stop making calls when I know in my gut I shouldn't. That's one of my leaks right now. I call too often on the river to see who sucked out on me and what they had. It's always so obvious too. I lead the betting each round with my TPTK, two pair, set or whatever and then the flush or straight draw hits on the river and someone comes to life and starts betting/raising. I could probably save at least 10BB a night if I could just fold there knowing I was beat but instead I have to pay to see it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 25, 2004, 01:39:55 PM Quote from: UD_Delt I'm dealt As10h and it folds around to me on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB calls. Flop comes all low hearts. BB checks, I check. Turn brings an A. BB bets, I raise, BB calls. River brings a 4th heart to give me the 10 high flush. BB checks, I bet, he raises, I call. He shows AhKh for the flopped nut flush. BB called your raise. An ace hits and you have an OK kicker that you raise with...why? You have top pair with mediocre kicker and could already be drawing dead. This is a check-call all the way. --- Bad poker does not win. End of discussion. Come sit at table with me sometime and I'll show you how to beat bad players. I people played high limits the way they play low limits I'd be rich. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 25, 2004, 02:46:42 PM Quote Bad poker does not win. My position on micro/low limit: This is 100% true. It is, however, often frustrating to play against. I will take a table full of calling station fish any day of the week over a tough game. However, if I am going to absorb horrendous beats so I can ultimately average 3BB/100 hands (my current win rate), I want those big bets to at least be worth the time/aggravation/blood pressure spikes. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 25, 2004, 03:06:18 PM Quote from: Margalis Bad poker does not win. End of discussion. Come sit at table with me sometime and I'll show you how to beat bad players. I people played high limits the way they play low limits I'd be rich. OK, I'll concede that point. But it's hard to lose to suckouts like that and believe. It really bothers me when people keep ride something to the river when all they had was a couple of low suited cards or a low pair and people are betting/raising all over the place. I guess that's a good thing, I'm starting to notice people that are playing really bad poker and know who to milk for money when I'm holding an ace high flush and there's no sign of a full house on the board. It's made me really tight too with my bets. I did something I thought I'd never do, ever. I folded a set of Jacks due to the presence of a king and queen on the board and some very agressive betting between 2 others playing the hand. I felt somewhat good about laying down and somewhat sickened by it at the same time. I probably should have ridden it out, but for once I followed my gut and folded. I can't even remember how the hand ended I was so frazzled at what I had done (I really should find that hand in my history and check it out). I just wish I could play these people at higher limits. They'd seriously pay for part of a home loan with the way they constantly throw their money around. Of course, they'd probably do a lot more folding. A pair of pocket 9's looks OK when you've only got to bet 50 cents or a dollar, but it looks like dog shit when you're having to call 10 bucks. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 25, 2004, 04:20:31 PM Quote I did something I thought I'd never do, ever. I folded a set of Jacks due to the presence of a king and queen on the board and some very agressive betting between 2 others playing the hand. I felt somewhat good about laying down and somewhat sickened by it at the same time. I probably should have ridden it out, but for once I followed my gut and folded. I can't even remember how the hand ended I was so frazzled at what I had done (I really should find that hand in my history and check it out). If you are pretty sure you are beat, don't feel bad about laying them down. With two other players going to war in the hand, chances are that at least one of them has you beat. I know how you feel about laying down big hands- I had to dump AA in a tourney a couple of weeks ago when the turn put a 4 card straight on the board and my opponent was betting back at my on the flop AND the straight. He may have put a move on me, but under those circumstances I can't afford to find out. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 26, 2004, 12:09:09 AM If there was aggressive betting with QK on the board, my best guess would be that one guy had AK, one guy had KQ, and your set of jacks was the winning hand.
Pot odds with two very aggressive betters would have led me to call bets to the river against the raisers who are probably capping every street anyways. So, IMO, folding the set of jacks may not have been the best thing to do. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 26, 2004, 08:04:41 AM If I can find the hand in my history, I'll post it here. I may be remember all of the details wrong, but it just screamed "GET THE FUCK OUT". It was pretty much a straight board also. There were just too many ways I could have gone down.
Last night I played for about 50 minutes with a much more focused mindset. Won $15 bucks and I only put money voluntarily into the pot like 20% of the time on around 60 hands. I only went to 5 showdowns, which I won all of them. I didn't win much without a showdown, but I did have a couple people that only folded when I check/raised on the river (about 4 total wins without showdown). It also helped that most of the time there was another guy there that was pretty damn good. It was fun to play against him and watch him gut the river runners when I wasn't. Here's some stats: Hold'em (Real Money): 100 hands played and saw flop: - 9 times out of 19 while in small blind (47%) - 14 times out of 17 while in big blind (82%) - 16 times out of 64 in other positions (25%) - a total of 39 times out of 100 (39%) Pots won at showdown - 8 out of 12 (66%) Pots won without showdown - 5 Here was my favorite hand of the night, even though I tied: *********** # 30 ************** PokerStars Game #354366684: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/03/26 - 01:18:48 (ET) Table 'Antares' Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: BlindDuff ($5.25 in chips) Seat 3: dawgstud ($41 in chips) Seat 4: PeteyBalls ($11 in chips) Seat 5: RiverRipper ($13 in chips) Seat 6: thomase12 ($72.25 in chips) RiverRipper: posts small blind $0.25 thomase12: posts big blind $0.50 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [Ac 9c] BlindDuff: calls $0.50 dawgstud: calls $0.50 PeteyBalls: folds RiverRipper: raises $0.50 to $1 thomase12: calls $0.50 Parsec joins the table at seat #2 BlindDuff: calls $0.50 dawgstud: calls $0.50 *** FLOP *** [Qs Ks Jc] RiverRipper: bets $0.50 thomase12: calls $0.50 BlindDuff: calls $0.50 dawgstud: calls $0.50 *** TURN *** [Qs Ks Jc] [Td] RiverRipper: bets $1 thomase12: raises $1 to $2 BlindDuff: calls $2 dawgstud: raises $1 to $3 RiverRipper: calls $2 thomase12: raises $1 to $4 Betting is capped BlindDuff: calls $1.75 and is all-in dawgstud: calls $1 RiverRipper: calls $1 *** RIVER *** [Qs Ks Jc Td] [6d] RiverRipper: bets $1 thomase12: calls $1 dawgstud: raises $1 to $2 RiverRipper: calls $1 thomase12: calls $1 *** SHOW DOWN *** dawgstud: shows [Ad 5s] (a straight, Ten to Ace) RiverRipper: mucks hand thomase12: shows [Ac 9c] (a straight, Ten to Ace) thomase12 collected $3.50 from side pot dawgstud collected $3.25 from side pot BlindDuff: mucks hand thomase12 collected $10 from main pot dawgstud collected $10 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $27.75 Main pot $20. Side pot $6.75. | Rake $1 Board [Qs Ks Jc Td 6d] Seat 1: BlindDuff mucked [Tc Jd] - two pair, Jacks and Tens Seat 3: dawgstud showed [Ad 5s] and won ($13.25) with a straight, Ten to Ace Seat 4: PeteyBalls (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: RiverRipper (small blind) mucked [Ts Qd] - two pair, Queens and Tens Seat 6: thomase12 (big blind) showed [Ac 9c] and won ($13.50) with a straight, Ten to Ace dawgstud was the good player I was referring to. I knew he had the ace but the others had shit. That guy RiverRipper chased just about every river ironically and would bet heavily agressive all of the time. I probably should have reraised on the river, just to see if we could have gotten any more cash out of RR. It's been fun. It's a lot more fun when you feel like you're playing decent. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 26, 2004, 09:14:04 AM If only all nights could be like last night. We had our weekly homegame. A bunch of people bailed on us last minute so we only ended up playing with 4. We played 3 $10 tourneys (payed $30, $10) and 1 $5 ($15,$5) tourney. I took 3rd, 1st, 1st in the $10's and second in the $5.
Not a huge money win but everything seemed so easy last night. My only stupid play was in getting picked off in a semi-bluff in the first tourney for all my chips but it turned out ok because in the next game I was getting paid off on all my good hands. The second place finish in the final tourney was just my luck running out and being too drunk and tired to care anymore. I went in that time with the chip lead but after two coin flips where I was the slight favorite, 1010 vs KQ and A9 vs K4, I lost both and that was the end. Now hopefully I can carry this over into my online play this weekend. I finally got Poker Tracker registered and went over a lot of my hands. I did find quite a few leaks such as chasing baby flushes from the BB, I lost a number of hands flush to flush because of that. Also, KQo seems to be a bad hand for me, I'm losing a decent bit when I hit a K or Q and I'm either outkicked or beaten by two pair. In general I seem to be losing money whenever I'm holding one pair so I must be playing that too aggressively. I should have realized by now that in no-foldem it's not often that one pair holds up. Any suggestions on how to play top pair in no-foldem micro limit games? Should I switch from betting out to check-calling w/ good kicker and check-folding w/ low kicker? That just seems to passive to me but maybe that's what needs to be done? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 26, 2004, 09:26:04 AM Quote from: UD_Delt In general I seem to be losing money whenever I'm holding one pair so I must be playing that too aggressively. I should have realized by now that in no-foldem it's not often that one pair holds up. Any suggestions on how to play top pair in no-foldem micro limit games? Should I switch from betting out to check-calling w/ good kicker and check-folding w/ low kicker? That just seems to passive to me but maybe that's what needs to be done? Playing a single pair is often tricky for me in low limit. If I have the top pair out there and nobody really went to town on the preflop betting, I'll bet. This is really only 50 cents, so you're not losing much if it doesn't pay out. If I'm raised, depending on my kicker, I'll fold. A call at this point doesn't mean much and more often that not you'll get the limpers to fold with a simple 50c bet. Then I'll check/call the rest of the way down the board. Sometimes if the board is something like Q 7 5 10 and I'm holding QA or QK, I'll lead off with bets. Raises and I'll likely fold. If a pair shows up on the boad, I'll fold. If it's a straight or flush board, I'll fold. If the betting gets to aggressive and you're not sure your stuff is going to hold up, fold. Pairs aren't usually big paydays anyhow. Overall, I tend to find that playing pairs very conservatively is the way to go in low limit holdem. But then again, I'm naturally a very tight player (compared to what I've seen). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 26, 2004, 09:45:04 AM I've actually been check-raising my TP/Decent Kicker from early position (which is where you will get TP the most) in LL against a lot of players a lot more lately and it is working out well. Usually goes something like this. 5 limpers and I'm on the button with something like K10. Flop comes down 10 7 2 or some other crap. If I bet, all the overcards and even someone with a 7 will call (i.e. almost everyone). If I check, it will likely be checked a ways before someone bets, then you raise it and make it two bets for the rest of the folk. I get more folds that way which is what I want with a vulnerable hand like that against a big field.
Doesn't always work, but been having some success with it lately. I disagree with you that if a pair comes on the board, it automatically hurts you and its a no-brainer fold. I find it helps me more than not because it has counterfeited someone holding a crapy middle two pair against my overpair or top pair. I'll almost always raise at that point and see what happens. If I get heavy action back, I know they hit their trips. However, you still have a tiny draw to the boat and by that point the odds usually justify pealing off one card. If bet into after you don't hit, you can fold pretty easy. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 26, 2004, 10:19:58 AM Quote from: Abagadro I disagree with you that if a pair comes on the board, it automatically hurts you and its a no-brainer fold. I find it helps me more than not because it has counterfeited someone holding a crapy middle two pair against my overpair or top pair. I'll almost always raise at that point and see what happens. If I get heavy action back, I know they hit their trips. However, you still have a tiny draw to the boat and by that point the odds usually justify pealing off one card. If bet into after you don't hit, you can fold pretty easy. I didn't mean to speak in too much absolutes. I'll usually feel out that pair on the board with the betting. If someone's throwing down cash like they just can't lose, I'll hastily retreat. Good idea on the checking and then raising in the overcard pair situation. I'll have to try that out. As you can see, I'm still very new at this. But these conversations help a lot as evident last night, I tightened up a bit and overall played much better. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 26, 2004, 10:39:08 AM Top pair will stand up more often than you think, but it isn't a license to bet your ass off by any stretch. If there was no preflop raises (other than a cutoff or button raise, which are likely to be positional), I bet out almost any pair if it is checked to me. If there is a bet in front of me, I will call with most pairs. On the turn, I will bet out (if in early position) with top pair, or raise (in late position) to see how my opponents like their hands. If I get callers or get raised, I slow down in a hurry. If the river doesn't help me, I will check/call or check/fold, depending on my read of the opponent.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 26, 2004, 11:38:39 AM Quote Top pair will stand up more often than you think, but it isn't a license to bet your ass off by any stretch. If there was no preflop raises (other than a cutoff or button raise, which are likely to be positional), I bet out almost any pair if it is checked to me. If there is a bet in front of me, I will call with most pairs. On the turn, I will bet out (if in early position) with top pair, or raise (in late position) to see how my opponents like their hands. If I get callers or get raised, I slow down in a hurry. If the river doesn't help me, I will check/call or check/fold, depending on my read of the opponent. I play them the same way. At least I like to think I do. But like I said according to Poker Tracker I'm overall a loser on playing pairs. I'll have to try and look a little deeper and see if maybe I'm losing too often on second pair. I wouldn't think so since I pretty much always fold second pair unless I have a good draw to go along with it. My results right now could just be an anomoly though considering I only have 3000 some hands loaded. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 26, 2004, 12:22:15 PM I am hosting a home game tomorrow night, and have been doing some research (it beats the shit out working!). I found a great page (here (http://www.pokermike.com/poker/)) for some basic rules and variants. Any one have any additional games they play in home games that aren't listed here?
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 26, 2004, 12:28:48 PM If you play hold-em or like tournament style this site is good and what I used as a reference for our home games.
http://www.homepokertourney.com/ Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 26, 2004, 12:47:57 PM Heh- I think I linked there on the old WT thread...great site. The fun thing about poker on TV is that more and more 'regular' players want to try playing tournaments. Since my game is more tuned to tournaments than to ring games, this is a +EV move for me =)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 26, 2004, 12:52:17 PM Quote from: WayAbvPar I am hosting a home game tomorrow night, and have been doing some research (it beats the shit out working!). I found a great page (here (http://www.pokermike.com/poker/)) for some basic rules and variants. Any one have any additional games they play in home games that aren't listed here? Well I didn't think they had Between the Sheets listed there, but they call it In Between (Acey Duecy). That is by far one of the best games to play, it's fast, it's dirty and only one person comes away happy. I always like to play it double on the posts. There really is nothing like watching a friend have something like 2 K, bet the pot and then manage to ring the post and double that pot. Yes, it has happened to me and it really hurt to toss like 40 bucks into the pot. Usually when I play various home games it's usually a 7 card stud variant. I like No Peek (Blind) Baseball, Chase the Queen (or Ace[not the game - the Ace preceeds the wildcard]), Black Mariah, or Hi(or low) Chicago. I also like 5 card Progression. Guts is also a good game to play with friends. Most of the other ones on that site I haven't played before. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 26, 2004, 01:18:31 PM WayAbvPar: Some tips on the difference between tournaments and ring games?
Before I played tourneys online, all I played was NL Hold'em home tournaments, 10-man. But that's not a whole lot of XP, even though I was a decent winner overall. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 26, 2004, 01:29:18 PM Back in high school our favorites were Acey-Ducey, Guts, 7Stud-Low Hole + Follow the Queen, and Benny.
Benny is a Guts variation where you deal 3 cards, your lowest card is wild. You then hold the chip and drop just like guts. If you stayed in you get 2 more cards, you then deal "Benny" which is a phantom 5 card hand. If you beat everyone who stayed in and "Benny" you scoop the pot. If you stayed in and lose to either a player or to Benny you match the pot. With a $1 ante and 6-7 people we often had over $100 pots playing this game. Our Acey-Ducey pots used to get out of control too. We had some friends who just loved to throw money into the pot. Any 5 card gap was good enough for them to give it a shot. If you have friends who really like to gamble games with match the pot rules get exciting fast. I also used to deal a lot of Black Jack during study halls and such. Nothing worse than getting busted by a prick teacher who would just nab all the money on the table rather than pass out the detentions. All worth while though when I would clear $25 or so each study hall. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 26, 2004, 01:42:40 PM Quote from: Mediocre WayAbvPar: Some tips on the difference between tournaments and ring games? Before I played tourneys online, all I played was NL Hold'em home tournaments, 10-man. But that's not a whole lot of XP, even though I was a decent winner overall. The biggest difference (obviously) is that when you go broke, you are done (you can't reach into your pocket and buy more chips). I try to avoid coinflip situations or worse for a lot of chips- I build my stack slowly but surely. Since most people understand that keeping their chips is the only way to stay in the tournament, you can get away with a LOT more blind stealing and reraises with crap...as long as YOU are the aggressor. You should rarely limp into a pot...open raising will oftentimes net you the blinds and/or antes. Sklansky has a theory called 'The Gap Concept'. Briefly- this means that there is a gap between the quality of hands that you would open raise with and the quality hands that you would call a raise with (you would need a much better hand to call a raise than in a ring game, since you can't afford to bleed too many chips). I also LOVE playing shorthanded (especially head to head)- I get to switch into hyperaggressive mode and really put the pressure on my opponent. I have had relatively few opponents (at least at the lower limits) that I feel are as good or better than I am heads up; thus I have many more 1st place finishes in tournaments than 2nds (I will have to check pokertracker to be sure, but my gut tells me this is the case). Most players don't realize HOW aggressive you have to be in order to have success shorthanded (provided that the stack sizes are relatively equal). There is a definite flow to tourneys that you don't get in ring games (which eventually get boring, playing ABC poker). I feel like I get more opportunities to outplay my opponents in tournaments, instead of always having to show down the best hand. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 26, 2004, 01:59:06 PM Quote from: WayAbvPar I also LOVE playing shorthanded (especially head to head)- I get to switch into hyperaggressive mode and really put the pressure on my opponent. I love shorthanded, tourney or not. I get to play more hands by % and quicker as well. In a tourney situation if I get heads up unless I am outchipped more than 2:1 I feel like I have a great chance. One thing about tournaments is position really matters. Being in late position is a huge help, you can buy a lot of pots. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 26, 2004, 05:01:14 PM Quote from: UD_Delt Back in high school our favorites were Acey-Ducey, Guts, 7Stud-Low Hole + Follow the Queen, and Benny. Benny is a Guts variation where you deal 3 cards, your lowest card is wild. You then hold the chip and drop just like guts. If you stayed in you get 2 more cards, you then deal "Benny" which is a phantom 5 card hand. If you beat everyone who stayed in and "Benny" you scoop the pot. If you stayed in and lose to either a player or to Benny you match the pot. With a $1 ante and 6-7 people we often had over $100 pots playing this game. Our Acey-Ducey pots used to get out of control too. We had some friends who just loved to throw money into the pot. Any 5 card gap was good enough for them to give it a shot. If you have friends who really like to gamble games with match the pot rules get exciting fast. I also used to deal a lot of Black Jack during study halls and such. Nothing worse than getting busted by a prick teacher who would just nab all the money on the table rather than pass out the detentions. All worth while though when I would clear $25 or so each study hall. You played hundred-dollars-in-a-single-pot games in High School? What Bus of Incredibly Fucking Rich Young People did you fall off of? :) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 26, 2004, 05:08:00 PM Quote from: WayAbvPar Quote from: Mediocre WayAbvPar: Some tips on the difference between tournaments and ring games? Before I played tourneys online, all I played was NL Hold'em home tournaments, 10-man. But that's not a whole lot of XP, even though I was a decent winner overall. The biggest difference (obviously) is that when you go broke, you are done (you can't reach into your pocket and buy more chips). I try to avoid coinflip situations or worse for a lot of chips- I build my stack slowly but surely. Since most people understand that keeping their chips is the only way to stay in the tournament, you can get away with a LOT more blind stealing and reraises with crap...as long as YOU are the aggressor. You should rarely limp into a pot...open raising will oftentimes net you the blinds and/or antes. Sklansky has a theory called 'The Gap Concept'. Briefly- this means that there is a gap between the quality of hands that you would open raise with and the quality hands that you would call a raise with (you would need a much better hand to call a raise than in a ring game, since you can't afford to bleed too many chips). I also LOVE playing shorthanded (especially head to head)- I get to switch into hyperaggressive mode and really put the pressure on my opponent. I have had relatively few opponents (at least at the lower limits) that I feel are as good or better than I am heads up; thus I have many more 1st place finishes in tournaments than 2nds (I will have to check pokertracker to be sure, but my gut tells me this is the case). Most players don't realize HOW aggressive you have to be in order to have success shorthanded (provided that the stack sizes are relatively equal). There is a definite flow to tourneys that you don't get in ring games (which eventually get boring, playing ABC poker). I feel like I get more opportunities to outplay my opponents in tournaments, instead of always having to show down the best hand. I'd heard the Gap Concept mentioned before, which is why I went to Barnes and Noble, flipped to that chapter of Sklansky's book, read it and understood it, and put it back on the shelf. (He already has $60 of my money from TOP and HPFAP so I don't feel too bad for him) What I tend to do is run a coinflip situation all-in at the beginning of the game if I can. If the other guy folds, I'm up a decent amount of chips from whatever significant raise I made before I put him all-in. If he calls, I have a 50/50 shot at doubling up and being the chip leader for the majority of the game -- at $10 with a shot to win $50 if I'm the tournament winner, with a 50/50 chance of becoming the chip leader and usually propelling me straight into the money, I find it's a winning proposition for me to take those 50/50 situations early on. Mid-game, I play extremely tight. My raises get respected, which is very important going into short-handed; also, the minor pots I steal/make keep me above the rising blinds (in our tournaments, with eight people, blinds double every time someone goes out. We start with $10 in chips, blinds at .5/.10, then at 4 people it's gone up to .80/1.60 -- very important to play aggressive.) The problem is, I always end up splitting with second. If it's 50/20 for first and second, I usually go 35/35. Because, quite frankly, the guy I usually end up heads-up with is a maniac. He's been known, in tournaments, to do things like show everyone he has a two-seven offsuit, flip over his cards, and go all in. And then get a flop that comes 277. Luckiest bastard ever -- and in a ring game I could punish him easily, but in heads-up NL tournament play it scares the shit out of me. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 26, 2004, 09:48:32 PM Quote You played hundred-dollars-in-a-single-pot games in High School? What Bus of Incredibly Fucking Rich Young People did you fall off of? :) Yeah, I went to a rich kids school. Porche's in the parking lot and all... Unfortunately I was the poor kid at the rich school. My first 40 hour a week 8-5 job was working at the school over the summer buffing and waxing floors, cleaning lockers out and whatnot. It was legal since I didn't actually get paid it just all went toward tuition. Following that I always worked somewhere after school and during the summer so I always had money to spend or gamble once I covered 50% of my tuition. The only other option was public high school which had 1000 people per class... Most of the rest of my friends were just wealthy. To give you an idea, one of my friends' mothers moved to Florida to live with her boyfriend and just left him with a $250,000 house and money to pay the bills. It's nice being a senior in HS and having your own quarter mil private house with no parental supervision. Lots of gambling, drinking, and debauchery was done in that house.... Seeing as money actually mattered to me and not them it was usually easy to win a few dollars in those games because they were all so willing to throw money around... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 27, 2004, 01:35:42 AM I go to a public high school in Orange County, CA with plenty of richy-rich kids... but nobody I know plays for those sort of stakes, heh.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Kairos on March 28, 2004, 02:41:10 AM I recently started on PokerStars after having played on TruePoker for a couple weeks (and having gotten sick of the crappy interface). Tripled my starting bankroll in a couple hours, though I've just been playing with play money so far.
Which leads me to my question: do the people in the low limit real money games play significantly differently (read: better) from the ones in the play money games? I've been thinking of putting some cash into it and giving it a shot. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 28, 2004, 02:51:30 AM Quote from: Kairos Which leads me to my question: do the people in the low limit real money games play significantly differently (read: better) from the ones in the play money games? I've been thinking of putting some cash into it and giving it a shot. No, they don't. Give it a shot. Start at .05/.1 holdem or .04/.08 stud. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 28, 2004, 10:51:58 AM EmpirePoker is sending out special re-upload bonus codes.. check your e-mail :)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on March 28, 2004, 02:49:04 PM Can you have accounts at both Empire and Party?
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 28, 2004, 08:05:02 PM I do.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 29, 2004, 06:39:51 AM Quote Can you have accounts at both Empire and Party? You can but I don't think they really want you to because of bonus whoring. That said, all you have to do is sign up for the other account using a different PC or a different IP address and then you can play both accounts on the same PC. You can't sit at the same table as yourself though since they do still check for that... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on March 29, 2004, 01:23:14 PM I think I may have to accept Way's Challenge, and start tonight (er, now). I've been playing with play money on PokerStars, and have been itching to try the real thing. However, since I have a pretty firm understanding of just how un-awesome I am, I think I'll start at the Fixed .25/.50 games. I'm hesitant to lose all my money in one session.
My confidence is a little rattled, since I encountered my Online Poker Nemesis last night. It was more than a little demoralizing, so much so, that it was almost funny. I thought I was doing pretty well, after 100 or so hands, I was seeing the flop maybe 30% of the time, and had won every showdown I saw. This all came crashing down as my sinister rival revealed himself for what he was. Suddenly, my OPN was beating everything I'd play, and beating it badly. This one person began consistently beating everything I played to the River. For example, I'm dealt KK. Flop comes something like J69. Turn is a 3. Only OPN and I are left, and I'm feeling pretty good, raising away, as I seriously doubt he's holding AA. River comes up a 4. "Awesome" thinks I, and then get beat by two-pair, 9's and 4's. I cannot overstate how often this person beat me just like that last night. Ok, ok. I'm buying in right now before I dwell on this any longer and lose my nerve. If I lose all my money, I blame this thread (and all its previous incarnations). Side note: I seem to get heckled for my username (Anger) every other play session or so, normally by the creative genius behind such names as X Ray Eye, and baseballguy6574. The emotional trauma is crippling. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on March 29, 2004, 05:07:06 PM I started doing Way's challenge last week too. Goddamn but I hate $.50/$1. I get beat by complete and utter shit like 72o on the river more times than I can count. I've been up to as much as $62 but I am back down to $45. I suck...shoot me.
When not doing the whole OIC thing however I've been doing rather nicely. I am completely hooked on Sit n Gos. I started out at the $10 ones at Party but I was consistently finishing fourth, which is most assuredly not spectacular for one's bankroll. So I moved down the $5 SnGs and finished in the money 3 out of 4 times, with 2 1st place finishes. Also doing quite well at $2/$4 and $3/$6 limit games. It certainly helps that I actually have money in my bankroll to cover the swings, I don't feel skiddish about betting for value, or for information. I am currently down a total of about $50 but I can feel the wins starting to come again so I think I am going to do well. See you at the tables. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on March 29, 2004, 10:37:00 PM Day one was pretty ugly for me. I'm down about $17. I'm thinking long and hard about dropping to the manly .05/.10 tables for a while. Problem is, at those stakes, betting feels so trivial... It's hard to decide if I really just suck, or have had a run of bad luck. Probably the former, with a side-order of bad luck.
I know that once I was down $10 or so, I chased a few hands that I knew I shouldn't have. I'd see the big pot, and have pretty good cards, just not the nuts. I'd talk myself into calling. Painful, every time. I notice that I'm also more apt to stay in on the hand immediately after I win one, like fortune is going to smile on me yet again. I think I'm ok on pre-flop play, but after that things get a little dicey. I have to say that playing even for such low stakes feels completely different than playing for play money. I like it! I just really, really need to improve. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on March 30, 2004, 12:20:07 AM I also have taken up the .5/1 challenge.
I was at one point up 27 then went all the way back to 5 under (in one sitting, God it was aweful), and now I've been around 20-30 up for the past 2-4 days (should be around 79-80 bucks atm). I was up to 92 a day ago w hen I landed a table full of fish. I've never managed to get people in .5/1 dollars games absolutely fear my betting due to the trivial nature of the cash involved, but I had these people shitless. It was lot of fun (too bad I had to pull myself away to finish some homework). I like to play in 30min-1hr chunks a couple times a day and with my fiance out of town it's more (she still has no idea I'm doing this even with a nice POKERSTARS icon on my desktop, she's somewhat anti gambling and very anti-internet gambling). I find that I play good one sitting, and one of my sittings always ends up whiping out about 10 bucks of winnings. I think I need to start cutting my sessions short where I don't feel like I'm playing well at all. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 30, 2004, 06:45:24 AM For those of you just starting out read this article and print out the chart in it to keep next to your computer.
http://66.209.66.200/?sec=afeature&art_id=13913 This will help immensely with your post-flop play which is where you are going to win or lose most of your money. Just remember to only count a card as an out if you are 99% sure it will give you the win. I will admit I'm a bit tighter than the chart when it comes to drawing to odds and I usually make sure the pot is paying proper odds + some. I'm not sure how poor of play it is but it feels safer to me. Also, Rasix, I personally don't like the short sessions. I finally had a decent night last night since I was able to put in a good 3 hour session. I find if I'm there for more than an hour some people will start to pick up on your play style, even at low limits. If you are playing tight they'll start to fold to you more often. In the second and third hour I was able to steal a few pots and my hands also held up a lot better because people were respecting my bets and raises and folding their crap hands rather than playing their crap hands that hit the turn and river and then bust me. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 30, 2004, 09:12:43 AM I am glad I have company in my struggles at .5/1 tables! My OIC is taking much longer than I had hoped to get to the higher levels. My first night, I went from $50 to $76. The next session, I went from $76 to $59. Next- $59 to $68, back to $60. ARRRGH! If I can just break loose and get to the $1/$2, I think I will be fine.
It is taking so long that I have taken to playing a SnG or multi while I am slaving away at the .5/1 tables. Thankfully I am playing decently in these, so my bankroll is still headed north. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 30, 2004, 10:15:28 AM Quote I am glad I have company in my struggles at .5/1 tables! Welcome to my nightmare. It's nice to have company. I've been playing at these levels for about 4 months now. I started there when my bankroll was at $200 and decided I wouldn't move up until I hit $600. In the first month I got my bankroll to $400. The next month I got it to $550. The month after it went back down to $450. I'm currently sitting at about $490. I was so close when my bankroll hit $550 that I could taste it. Then I got cold decked and hit nothing but second best hands and my hopes were shattered. It seems like I've been spinning my wheels now in the $450 - $500 range and just can't seem to get over the hump. You've only been at these levels for what a few days now? Try playing at them for 4 months and come back and let me know how it feels... So, what exactly do I have to look forward to at the $1/$2 level? Will people finally start to think for one second about what I might actually have rather than call down on every bottom pair (that of course turn into 2 pair on the river)? I dream of the days when a pre-flop raise might actually steal some blinds.... Title: A hint Post by: Mediocre on March 30, 2004, 04:01:07 PM I've found the promised land, guys.
Two websites -- William Hill and TotalBet. Players are COMPLETE MORONS. Minimum tables are $1/$2, and EVERYONE PLAYS LOOSE WEAK. PEOPLE WILL GO IN ON 2-4 OFFSUIT AND SEE YOU OFF TO THE LAST CARD WITH BOTTOM PAIR. Oh, and each website pays you $9 per hour to play there, 5 hours per month. If you hurry, you can finish March in time to get April's bonus as well as March's. Best part? They're on the same network and you can play on both sites at the same time -- perfectly allowed. So, I'm collecting $18 an hour to play against the WORLD'S SHITTIEST PLAYERS. Thank you, bonuswhores.com. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 30, 2004, 04:51:24 PM I just made 100 dollars, counting $20 bonuses, in my first hour playing $1/2 at Totalbet and William Hill combined.
Guess what I found out, that made me $50BB? There's no limit on the number of raises. I had pocket aces, spade ace on the board, pair of 9's on the board -- a guy has a king high flush at 5th street, and I have the nut full house. Only thing he can beat me with is quads, and he was playing K3spades -- the players here aren't the best ever. You'll see hands like 27o going in all the time, often to 5th street. We literally raised back and forth over 45BB before he finally decided to call, after taunting me in chat that he'd "taken enough from me" because "he has the best flush lol". Seeing $60 slide towards my table in one hand at $1/$2 was priceless. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 30, 2004, 05:47:43 PM I am doing the ultimate challenge. I started with $4. Yes, FOUR DOLLARS. Currently I am at $20, playing .04/.08 stud, .05/.1 holdem fixed and .02 NL holdem.
This is a great learning experience, which is why I am doing this. I am going to take my 4 bucks and turn it into thousands...eventually. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on March 30, 2004, 07:31:08 PM Ok. Well Hold em has been giving me a beating lately so I decided to give Omaha a try which I haven't played more than a few times. How poorly did I play this hand? I'm pretty sure my starting requirements are off but after that....
PokerStars Game #362605535: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2004/03/30 - 22:22:16 (ET) Table 'Chara' Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: dr shock ($8.95 in chips) Seat 2: UD_Delt ($23.70 in chips) Seat 3: xrtracer ($22.85 in chips) Seat 4: nsamarkos ($10.75 in chips) Seat 5: LOSERx3 ($27 in chips) Seat 6: TON80 ($16.05 in chips) Seat 7: dartagnan ($9.60 in chips) Seat 8: bob james ($10.05 in chips) Seat 9: Dogbreath ($28.25 in chips) xrtracer: posts small blind $0.10 nsamarkos: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to UD_Delt [4d Ad Ts Jh] LOSERx3: folds TON80: folds dartagnan: calls $0.25 bob james: folds Dogbreath: folds dr shock: calls $0.25 UD_Delt: calls $0.25 xrtracer: folds nsamarkos: checks *** FLOP *** [5d 6d Qs] nsamarkos: bets $0.25 dartagnan: folds dr shock: calls $0.25 UD_Delt: calls $0.25 *** TURN *** [5d 6d Qs] [Td] nsamarkos: bets $0.50 dr shock: raises $0.75 to $1.25 UD_Delt: raises $4.80 to $6.05 nsamarkos: folds dr shock: calls $4.80 *** RIVER *** [5d 6d Qs Td] [6c] dr shock: bets $2.40 and is all-in UD_Delt: calls $2.40 *** SHOW DOWN *** dr shock: shows [Qd 4c 9d Qh] (HI: a full house, Queens full of Sixes) UD_Delt: mucks hand dr shock collected $18.35 from pot No low hand qualified *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $19.25 | Rake $0.90 Board [5d 6d Qs Td 6c] Seat 1: dr shock showed [Qd 4c 9d Qh] and won ($18.35) with HI: a full house, Queens full of Sixes Seat 2: UD_Delt (button) mucked [4d Ad Ts Jh] - HI: a flush, Ace high Seat 3: xrtracer (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: nsamarkos (big blind) folded on the Turn Seat 5: LOSERx3 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: TON80 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: dartagnan folded on the Flop Seat 8: bob james folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: Dogbreath folded before Flop (didn't bet) Thanks. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on March 30, 2004, 07:49:20 PM I don't really play Omaha hold em, so I don't know how good my advice is. I don't think you played the hand badly, you just got busted on a bad river draw. He was betting on his flush during the turn and you had the high flush.
I don't know if you should have stayed preflop, but like I said I don't know Omaha that well, so I can't tell you if you had good preflop cards. I am sure someone will correct me. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on March 30, 2004, 10:25:56 PM Consider this a small cry for help, have I played these two hands correctly? They leave a bad taste in my mouth:
Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Anger [Kh Ad] jerry-777: folds Bert23x: folds Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50 BILLIE: folds Bunny91169: folds joshuaa02: folds Centuryguy: folds river_hoes: folds Kenny Oz: calls $0.40 kt10k: calls $0.25 *** FLOP *** [Ac 5h Js] Kenny Oz: checks kt10k: checks Anger: bets $0.25 Kenny Oz: calls $0.25 kt10k: folds *** TURN *** [Ac 5h Js] [8d] Kenny Oz: checks Anger: bets $0.50 Kenny Oz: calls $0.50 *** RIVER *** [Ac 5h Js 8d] [Qh] Kenny Oz: checks Anger: bets $0.50 Kenny Oz: raises $0.50 to $1 Anger: calls $0.50 *** SHOW DOWN *** Kenny Oz: shows [9h Th] (a straight, Eight to Queen) Anger: mucks hand Kenny Oz collected $4.75 from pot I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that? This next one is pretty simple, but I wasn't sure what to do on the flop here, so I folded. I figure it's better to err on the side of caution. Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Anger [Ac Kd] BILLIE: folds Q-Tip69: folds joshuaa02: folds Centuryguy: folds river_hoes: folds Kenny Oz: folds kt10k: checks jerry-777: folds Bert23x: calls $0.15 Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50 kt10k: calls $0.25 Bert23x: calls $0.25 *** FLOP *** [6s 4s 8s] Bert23x: bets $0.25 Anger: folds kt10k: calls $0.25 *** TURN *** [6s 4s 8s] [Kc] Bert23x: bets $0.50 kt10k: calls $0.50 *** RIVER *** [6s 4s 8s Kc] [Jd] Bert23x: bets $0.50 kt10k: calls $0.50 *** SHOW DOWN *** Bert23x: shows [Qc 9s] (high card King) kt10k: shows [Qs Kh] (a pair of Kings) kt10k collected $4 from pot Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on March 30, 2004, 10:31:49 PM I think your play on the flop on the last hand was essentially correct. As far as the straight, I would have done what you did.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 31, 2004, 10:08:04 AM Quote from: UD_Delt Ok. Well Hold em has been giving me a beating lately so I decided to give Omaha a try which I haven't played more than a few times. How poorly did I play this hand? I'm pretty sure my starting requirements are off but after that.... A4TJ is a pretty bad hand...to get the low you need a 2 and 3 to come down, and the TJ by themselves are almost useless. Basically you are hoping for diamonds, a 2 & 3, or a K & Q. After that though not much you could do. You had to call the bet at the river for that much money in the pot, although in Omaha chances are pretty good when the board pairs someone has at least a full house. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 31, 2004, 02:12:47 PM Anger, both hands look fine. Big Slick is a tough hand at low limit, you almost need two pair or a broadway with it to feel comfortable.
Ud-Delt. I think it is a serious mistake to play Pot-Limit Omaha when you aren't familiar with the game. Find a low limit one to get the feel of it. That starting hand is pretty lousy. If it were a very tight game with few people seeing the flop, I may play it in late position. It just doesn't play that well with only one flush draw, a non-suited broadway draw and 4th nut low starter. Would be a very loose call even in the situation I mentioned. You got lucky on the flop/turn with basically your only decent hand and had the nuts, plus a decent low draw heads up. However, Omaha is a river game far more than hold em. When it pairs and someone has stayed around that long, a FH is almost guaranteed. The small turn raise with a flush board screams set. He knows you have the nuts when you pot-bet raise him, yet he bets into you on the river when the board pairs. I would have folded to the river bet. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 31, 2004, 11:10:53 PM Quote from: Anger Consider this a small cry for help, have I played these two hands correctly? They leave a bad taste in my mouth: *** RIVER *** [Ac 5h Js 8d] [Qh] Kenny Oz: checks Anger: bets $0.50 Kenny Oz: raises $0.50 to $1 Anger: calls $0.50 This is a mistake. I think I said this in this thread before...betting the river is the easiest thing to get wrong. When you bet the river you are hoping for 2 things: 1: They will call with a worse hand. 2: They will fold a better hand. If he was on a draw and missed it he won't call a bet, so betting does nothing. If he was on a draw and made it you don't have a great hand. What would he call your bet with and lose with? A + worse kicker? If he had AJ or AQ you are in trouble though. Whenever you bet the river you have to ask youself what will he call with, what will he fold with? In this case, the only thing he might call and lose with is A + lower kicker, but he could also have 2 pair or a straight a couple different ways. I would just check here. *** SHOW DOWN *** Kenny Oz: shows [9h Th] (a straight, Eight to Queen) Anger: mucks hand Kenny Oz collected $4.75 from pot[/quote] I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that? Quote This next one is pretty simple, but I wasn't sure what to do on the flop here, so I folded. You had AK suited and the flop came three low cards all of another suit. What are you not sure about? You have nothing and little chance to improve. An A or a K could give you a pair, but if that A or K is of the same suit as the other 3 you are probably dead. (If you aren't already) You could already be drawing dead. You have no draw and tons of danger cards. You have 4 outs tops. The suited A or K will kill you, so that leaves 2 other aces and 2 other kings. And you could already be dead. And someone is betting from first position. Folding is the right play here 99% of the time. This time it turns out you would have won...it happens. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 01, 2004, 07:01:59 AM Quote I have to say I didn't really expect the straight at all, mainly because...why would anyone stay in with that? You must not play much at the low limits. :) To give you an idea of what you lose with... I lost AA after raising pre-flop to someone playing Q8o who hit Q's & 8's. I lost w/ a 9-7 from the BB to a 10-7o played from UTG on a 77x flop. My favorite: Playing short handed w/ only 3 people. I'm dealt AhJh on the button. I raise, SB folds, BB raises, I reraise, he caps. Flop KhQd10d. Nice broadway straight for me. We again cap the pot. Turn Ks. Now I'm a little worried he was playing KQ or some such. He bets, I call. River 10c. Now I know I'm screwed. He bets, I make a crying call because I have to know how beat I was. He turns over Kd3s. That was the hand he capped preflop... I managed to lose 40BB in a little over an hour yesterday. 60% of which I was leading at the turn and lost on the river. The other 20% were hands that hit me hard out of the BB when I had crap cards but someone else called in playing equally crappy cards that were just slightly better than mine. 20% were legitimate losses where I put money in while behind with a worse kicker or when the flop hit me but hit someone else harder. IE... Flop: A-10-2. I have AK he has A-10, Flop: undercards me: QQ him: AA, etc... Sorry once again for bitching but I can't help it given my current 150BB downswing. Any samaritan's out there willing to go over some hand histories of mine and help me figure out where I'm going wrong? Alternately, someone needs to tell me to shut the hell up and I'll stop with the bad beat stories... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 01, 2004, 07:51:40 AM I disagree with not betting the river with the A and top kicker. At low limit you will get called down with all sorts of crap. Any A will call you at those limits and middle pair will call you 50% of the time. You unfortunately got sucked out on and it cost you an extra BB, but checking the river would be seriously weak-tight IMO. You may want to consider folding to the raise however depending upon the player.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 01, 2004, 09:09:05 AM Quote from: Abagadro I disagree with not betting the river with the A and top kicker. At low limit you will get called down with all sorts of crap. Any A will call you at those limits and middle pair will call you 50% of the time. You unfortunately got sucked out on and it cost you an extra BB, but checking the river would be seriously weak-tight IMO. You may want to consider folding to the raise however depending upon the player. People will call with middle pair if the flop is something like 3 7 T. Most people won't call with middle pair if an ace is out, unless they have pockets they don't want to give up on. People play aces. Chances are if an ace is out there, someone has it. On the river there were 3 cards he didn't want to see. T, K and Q. One of those 3 hit. Kenny Oz checked the flop when he was first to act and just called the preflop raise. That's an obvious draw. There is no point betting the river against draws. The best hope was he had something like KQ, hit the Q and would feel compelled to call. I wouldn't check top pair top kicker in every situation. Just this one. Chances are either you lost or he'll fold to a bet. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 01, 2004, 09:41:33 AM We'll just have to disagree. His opponent played that hand like he had A with a weak kicker. People check-call this hand all the time at those limits. There is a good reason to bet a draw on the river. It is an equity bet. People call down all sorts of dog shit. They hit their lousy second pair and figure hey its one more bet and I want to see what he has, keep him honest, yada yada yada.
What is the point of checking? If he bets, you are compelled to call. So you have put in one bet. If he checks through, you likely have the winner and don't have the possibility of collecting the extra bet. Just bet and then fold to a river raise. Cost you the same as check-calling and you can be almost guaranteed you are beat. Very few people bluff river-raise in low limit in my experience. Even if you get raised, you are only giving up one extra bet in the unlikely event that the runner-runner monster got there or someone hit their 3 outter on a second pair. I believe you will get called with crap many more times than raised on the river by the suck-out that got there. If you are checked to, by all means check it through if you don't feel good about you hands and fear a CR. But just check-calling the river heads up with TP/TK is bad poker if you ask me. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 01, 2004, 11:01:37 AM I am in the midst of the most hideous run of big time beats that I can remember. The following 3 hands happened in a 15 minute span a couple of days ago (I have edited out some of the extraneous lines to avoid having a mile long quote)-
Quote Dealt to wayabvpar [Ah Ac] wayabvpar: raises 40 to 60 heyrocker: calls 50 *** FLOP *** [7c 9h 3h] heyrocker: checks wayabvpar: bets 80 heyrocker: raises 120 to 200 wayabvpar: calls 120 *** TURN *** [7c 9h 3h] [9c] heyrocker: checks wayabvpar: bets 360 heyrocker: raises 860 to 1220 and is all-in wayabvpar said, "gonna be a short one I guess" wayabvpar: calls 840 and is all-in *** RIVER *** [7c 9h 3h 9c] [3d] wayabvpar said, "yep" Ruddiger said, "wow" *** SHOW DOWN *** heyrocker: shows [9d 9s] (four of a kind, Nines) wayabvpar: shows [Ah Ac] (two pair, Aces and Nines) heyrocker collected 2940 from pot I KNEW I was beat on the turn, but I was so pissed that AA got cracked AGAIN that I was morbidly curious as to what did me in this time. In this case, he had a solid hand and played it perfectly (this was a 2+2 SnG, so I knew these were solid players). This one is my fault all the way...I could have lost half my stack instead of the whole thing. In these next 2, I started as the chip leader early in a $10 SnG. Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to wayabvpar [Ks Kc] wayabvpar: calls 30 BluesLady: folds Lynn1024: raises 180 to 210 Choocher: folds holec85: folds wyldbabs: folds capricorne1: folds burghguy: folds goldhawk: folds wayabvpar: raises 1780 to 1990 and is all-in Lynn1024: calls 1470 and is all-in *** FLOP *** [As Th Ad] goldhawk said, "wow" wayabvpar said, "of course" *** TURN *** [As Th Ad] [Ts] *** RIVER *** [As Th Ad Ts] [3h] *** SHOW DOWN *** wayabvpar: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Aces and Kings) Lynn1024: shows [Kd Ah] (a full house, Aces full of Tens) Lynn1024 collected 3405 from pot Again, can't really fault my opponent here, although there is no way I call a limp-reraise all in with AK...this is a dead giveaway for AA or KK, both of which are big favorites over AK. The funny thing is I didn't mean to limp- I was playing another screen and came back when the timer went off and I clicked too fast. Ok, down to 280 chips now...extremely shortstacked. Next playable hand, I am all in...and it came quite soon. Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to wayabvpar [As Tc] Lynn1024: calls 30 Choocher: folds capricorne1 said, "funny" holec85: calls 30 wyldbabs: folds capricorne1: folds burghguy: folds goldhawk: folds wayabvpar: raises 250 to 280 and is all-in BluesLady: folds Lynn1024: folds holec85: calls 250 *** FLOP *** [Jc 7h 2d] *** TURN *** [Jc 7h 2d] [Th] *** RIVER *** [Jc 7h 2d Th] [3h] *** SHOW DOWN *** wayabvpar: shows [As Tc] (a pair of Tens) holec85: shows [Qh 2h] (a flush, Queen high) holec85 collected 620 from pot goldhawk said, "unreal" To compound matters, I was in the $11 rebuy tournament later (don't have the HH available). Got AA UTG, and raised to 60 (10/20 blinds), praying that some cowboy will snap me off with a big reraise (which is incredibly common in rebuy games). I get 2 (!!!) all ins, and I call them- JJ and AK. I am a big favorite over both of these hands, so it looks like I will get a quick triple up and be set for the foreseeable future. Flop is rags, J on turn, rag on river, and I get to rebuy instead of tripling up. Again, my opponents didn't play their hands THAT badly...the luck fairy just decided this is the week to kick me in the junk repeatedly. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 01, 2004, 11:02:46 AM Quote Any samaritan's out there willing to go over some hand histories of mine and help me figure out where I'm going wrong? Feel free to post some hands...I am no expert, but I would be happy to give you my analysis. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 01, 2004, 11:06:16 AM Quote from: Abagadro There is a good reason to bet a draw on the river. It is an equity bet. People call down all sorts of dog shit. This is where we disagree. Obviously it does depend on your opponent, but in general I find people won't call with low pairs with an Ace on board, because so many people play aces. If you have a pair in looser games ace is the one card you really don't want to see. Quote What is the point of checking? To save 50 cents. Quote I believe you will get called with crap many more times than raised on the river by the suck-out that got there. Again, Q was a bad card. If you pot your opponent on a draw or any two face cards Q was a very bad card. Q,K and to lesser extent T are the three cards you really don't want to see here. If the final card was I rag I would say bet away. Either way the main problem was the opponent hit their draw. But they had an open straight...it happens. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 01, 2004, 12:13:46 PM I just don't fear runner-runner staights and 3 out two-pairs enough to give up the +EV of betting on the river which TP/TK when no one has shown strength the entire hand. If you play like that you will begin to see monster hands all over the board and give up way too many bets that would be called by worse hands. I think check-calling is the single worst way to play poker in general.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 01, 2004, 01:06:07 PM Had another up and down couple of days. Can't seem to break my current status of 30 up. Got as high as 40 up but then I lost some and played a sit-n-go where I made a REALLY STUPID ALL IN. You know, the ones where you bet heavy, gett reraised for all in, are looking a straight board, get a funny feeling in the back of your stomach, and then instead of doing the smart thing you go all in. I swear, some of it was the table, it was some of the worst poker I've seen in a long time but just couldn't get the cards to do anything about it. In one hand alone, 4 people went all-in in one of the worst poker displays in recorded history (gotta find that hand).
Does anyone have recommendations for good pokers sites or boards with some decent hand analysis? I've been looking at the way I'm playing some of my hands and just can't help but think it's wrong but I don't know what I can do better. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 01, 2004, 01:08:46 PM Maybe someone should try and convince Joe/Schild to open up a poker forum for us here so we can branch out a bit from a single thread into other topics. Then we can get into the hand histories a bit more without feeling bad about cluttering up a single thread with a bunch of quotes.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 01, 2004, 01:14:06 PM www.twoplustwo.com
Those are the best poker forums around. DO NOT go in there and post your latest bad beat as you will just get yelled at. No one is interested over there about talking about those. Post some interesting hands/decisions and you will get good feedback. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 02, 2004, 12:13:35 AM Quote from: Abagadro I just don't fear runner-runner staights and 3 out two-pairs enough to give up the +EV of betting on the river which TP/TK when no one has shown strength the entire hand. If you play like that you will begin to see monster hands all over the board and give up way too many bets that would be called by worse hands. I think check-calling is the single worst way to play poker in general. You are totally missing the point. You shouldn't fear runner-runner straights or 3 out 2 pairs UNLESS by the river there is a good chance your opponent made them. That's why you bet the flop and the turn. When your opponent is on the draw, you should bet. When they have MADE the draw, you should check. Betting on the river is not +EV if your opponent is on a draw and missed it, or on a draw and hit it. One way it's a fold, another way it's a raise. Here is a question, given the 4 cards on the board, what is the one card you MOST don't want to see? Probably queen. Fills in a high straight, fills in a low straight, 2 pairs AQ and QJ. Nobody (at least not me) is advocating check-calling every time you have top pair top kicker. Just this time, on the river, when a danger card hit and the opponent was likely on a draw. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 02, 2004, 12:37:00 AM Quote from: Rasix Does anyone have recommendations for good pokers sites or boards with some decent hand analysis? I've been looking at the way I'm playing some of my hands and just can't help but think it's wrong but I don't know what I can do better. Two plus two is ok, if you can deal with the fact that the poker experts on it are hardly experts. If you go to rec.gambling.poker (newsgroup) you can get some good feedback but there is also a LOT of noise. Some really cool people post some interesting things sometimes. (More on that below) In the end though, you learn by doing. If you are playing cheap tournies and/or low limits thats a good time to experiment. An important thing is not confuse bad plays with beats. In the hand Abagadro and I are arguing about, the real problem was someone hit an unlikely draw. The tough thing about learning poker is you can do the wrong thing 5 times in a row and it may work out great, or you can do the right thing 5 times in a row and it works out lousy. You have to ask yourself how you could have played differently. The other thing, and this can NEVER be said enough times, is that your read on the players is super important and hand histories don't have that. Lots of starting players think that tells are really important. They have their place, but that isn't the same as having a read on a player. I am reading a book by Cloutier and McEvoy right now, and in basically EVERY real-life example he says something like "I knew XXX was a great player, so it was easy for me to lay down my KK overpair when he reraised the flop." You also hear people talk about what a player is "capable of." Chan checked the straight to Seidel on every card, because he knew Seidel was capable of a big bluff raise. Should you check the nut straight on the flop and the turn? Not against every player, but against a player who will bluff big on scare cards? Sure. That's my problem with hand histories, and my problem with Sklansky and his lame thought experiments that "assume typical players." You should be paying attention to the players. Even at low limits there are people who will play 27s, and people who will play any face card suited. Those are two different behaviors. Both stupid, but different. There are people who will bluff bet if you check the river and people who won't. It's stupid to "assume typical players" because you shouldn't have to make that assumption in real life. If you post hand histories, it would be great to say what your read on the players was. If you didn't have a read, that was one of your problems. --- You see that in the dicussion Abagadro and I are having. Would this player call with middle pair with an ace on the board? Who knows? But if you are at the table with them, it's your job to find out. Especially in NL or PL, if you make the right call you can double up or go home. I find a lot of the time how well I do in NL or PL is largely the base on 2 or 3 key decisions I made. There are very few plays in poker that are always correct or always incorrect. Edit: The first chapter of "Championship No-Limit and Pot-Limit Holdem" is all about reading your opponents and nothing about actual cards or strategy. Limit does tend to be a lot more mechanical, but reading opponents still matters quite a bit. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 02, 2004, 05:14:54 PM Ah, the joys of William Hill and TotalBet:
Getting paid 18 dollars per hour to play for 5 hours a month is priceless. Up 170 dollars in two hours at $1/$2. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 02, 2004, 05:59:21 PM The only hand that I had where it was somewhat questionable as to how to play today was a really fun one: I got the nut straight on the flop. The question was how to extract the most money out of it. Tell me if I got as much as I could have, and what I should have done differently:
Quote ------HAND 61------ Game #111921482: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/04/03 - 00:45:53 (GMT) Table "Amethysts" Seat 3 is the button. Seat 1: Ivie0408 ($25.25 in chips) Seat 2: Cafc100 ($30 in chips) Seat 3: Prot ($38.50 in chips) Seat 4: Rusac ($78.75 in chips) Seat 5: crowe ($40.75 in chips) Seat 6: HyuStride ($123.25 in chips) Seat 7: Howawoh sits out Seat 8: skolem ($117.50 in chips) Seat 9: Tiang2110 ($28 in chips) Seat 10: smracine ($131 in chips) Rusac: posts small blind $0.50 crowe: posts big blind $1 Tiang2110: posts big blind $1 ----- HOLE CARDS ----- dealt to HyuStride [Kh Jd] HyuStride: calls $1 skolem: raises $2 Tiang2110: calls $1 smracine: folds Ivie0408: folds Cafc100: folds Prot: calls $2 Rusac: folds crowe: calls $1 HyuStride: calls $1 ----- FLOP ----- [9c Qh Td] crowe: checks HyuStride: checks skolem: bets $1 Tiang2110: calls $1 Prot: calls $1 crowe: calls $1 HyuStride: calls $1 ----- TURN ----- [9c Qh Td][2d] crowe: checks HyuStride: checks skolem: checks Tiang2110: checks Prot: bets $2 crowe: folds HyuStride: raises $4 skolem: folds Tiang2110: folds Prot: calls $2 ----- RIVER ----- [9c Qh Td 2d][6h] HyuStride: bets $2 Prot: calls $2 ----- SHOW DOWN ----- HyuStride: shows [Kh Jd] (A Straight, King high) Prot: mucks hand HyuStride collected $26.25 from Main pot ----- SUMMARY ----- Total pot $27.50 Main pot $26.25 | Rake $1.25 Board [9c Qh Td 2d 6h] Seat 1: Ivie0408 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: Cafc100 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Prot (button) mucked Seat 4: Rusac (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: crowe (big blind) folded on the Turn Seat 6: HyuStride showed [Kh Jd] and won ($26.25) with A Straight, King high Seat 8: skolem folded on the Turn Seat 9: Tiang2110 (big blind) folded on the Turn Seat 10: smracine folded before Flop (didn't bet) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 02, 2004, 06:45:15 PM My 2 cents:
Preflop if the player raising is good I would throw this hand away a lot of the time, it's a trap hand. Obviously you aren't going to reraise. OK. Flop: Skolem raised before the flop, it's reasonable to think he will bet on the flop as well, or at least that SOMEONE will bet on the flop. With 4 other people in and one pre-flop raiser you are almost sure someone will bet. Skolem goes immediately after you. If you raise and he re-raises others might fold. Even if he just calls now everyone else is facing an early position flop bettor AND a guy who raised pre flop, two people who probably both have good hands. So if you bet and Skolem just calls they may still fold. Also if Skolem bets they may put him on something like AK semi-bluff. A lot of times if someone bets preflop they bet postflop regardless of how hard they hit it. Should you reraise him? That's the key question. The danger is you give away your monster and people fold, or else become check/folders on the turn. Turn: The turn is another totally safe card, your monster is still way ahead. I like the check still. Now prot bets and crowe folds. I would most likely still just call here. If Skolem has AK or AJ, 2 diamonds or something like that he may call one bet but not two. I would call and hope that on the river someone picks up some help. When you raise you get 2 extra out of prot, but you maybe lose 2 from skolem and another 2 from Tiang. With the second diamond out that may not be a terrible play though. However I would probably just call and hope for another call or two behind me. River: The river probably didn't help anyone, unless they have 66 or something like Q6 suited. I would bet here, because while opponent may not have gotten help the river was not a scare card either. You can't check here after your raise on the turn because he will most likely check as well. --- In limit in general you don't want to give away a big hand until the turn or river, because that's when the bets double. When you do decide to pop them with a reraise you want to sandwhich them so that a bunch of people call the raise, then feel compelled to call the reraise as well. Those two ideas conflict here, because the flop was the perfect time to sandwhich people with a reraise. Imagine if on the turn Skolem had bet again. That would be much better for you. Skolem calls, he gets a couple callers behind him, then you reraise. At this point it's one more bet to call, so they might call. When you reraised nobody had called the original raise yet, making it easy for them to fold rather than call 2 bets. --- What you could have done differently: #1: Check-raise the flop. You are in the perfect position to check raise here. Skolem bets, everyone calls, finally you raise. Everyone will feel compelled to call again. So you may well be +$4 at this point. If Skolem raises again you will probably lose everyone else, but you have more of his money and might be able to get more action from him on the turn or river. But on the turn what do you do? If you bet again the 2 probably didn't help anyone, so they may fold. If you check people may well check behind you, expecting you to check raise again. Then on the river the 6 probably doesn't help anyone either. If Skolem had reraised you and you called what do you do on the turn. The 2 almost certainly didn't help him. He will probably call a bet but you probably won't see a lot more action from him unless he is a loose player. If you have been a bit loose and people have soon you represent strong flops and then lose, a check-raise on the flop might work well. Then on the turn if you check people may put you on a straight draw and bet behind you. Then on the river you can just bet out. #2: Call until the river. With a flop like that I would guess a couple people are on draws, but you currently have the high straight. You want them to stick in. On the turn now someone may be on a flush draw. In limit you also want them to stick in. Someone on a draw may call one bet but they may not call 2. The worst situation is you check raise the flop, Skolem reraises, everyone folds, and then Skolem won't give you any more action. So the key question is will Skolem cap the betting on the flop? If so will he keep betting? Do people really respect your raises? If Skolem is the type of player who will go beserk on 2 pair or a set I like the flop check raise. It's win win. If Skolem just calls your raise everyone else will call as well. If Skolem reraises you you can get action from him on the turn and the river. If Skolem is the type of player who will bet hard on a draw with 2 cards to go but not 1 I don't like checkraising the flop. He may reraise and scare others out, but then not give you action on the turn or river. So the best case scenario is Skolem is the type of player who will only reraise your check raise with a made hand. In that case if he has a made hand you can get action from him, and if not and he calls everyone else calls as well. If people are really respecting your raises I would call all the way, or if I though Skolem could check-raise then go dead. Otherwise I might check-raise the flop just because the position is so good, everyone else will be almost compelled to call. And the more they call, they more they feel compelled to call later. If you check raise the flop and get some callers, when the second diamond comes down they may stay in because the pot is big. If they have a gutshot they may stay in. If they have a pair they may stay in hoping for trips or two pair. The pot may be too big for them to lay down those hands. So they may at least call the turn. --- So, the more I think about it the more I like check-raising the flop. If you acted immediately *after* skolem instead of before I would say check until he stops betting. This is pretty similar to H/L games when you have the low hand and somebody else has the high. You want to trap the other players into calling as many raises as possible without scaring them. A player will call 1 bet twice much more often than 2 bets together, because their pot odds and pot committment increases after the first call. The flop was the perfect position to do this in. The bet on the turn shut out everyone. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 03, 2004, 10:15:52 AM Quote #1: Check-raise the flop. You are in the perfect position to check raise here. Skolem bets, everyone calls, finally you raise. Everyone will feel compelled to call again. So you may well be +$4 at this point. If Skolem raises again you will probably lose everyone else, but you have more of his money and might be able to get more action from him on the turn or river. But on the turn what do you do? If you bet again the 2 probably didn't help anyone, so they may fold. If you check people may well check behind you, expecting you to check raise again. Then on the river the 6 probably doesn't help anyone either. If Skolem had reraised you and you called what do you do on the turn. The 2 almost certainly didn't help him. He will probably call a bet but you probably won't see a lot more action from him unless he is a loose player. If you have been a bit loose and people have soon you represent strong flops and then lose, a check-raise on the flop might work well. Then on the turn if you check people may put you on a straight draw and bet behind you. Then on the river you can just bet out. I thought about this, actually -- probably not as much as I should have, because in hindsight it seems like the right thing to do. :) However, I had been playing tight enough the entire night that I never lost a single showdown at that table (I lost maybe one or two at another table). My raises were getting a lot of respect, and with the rainbow non-threatening board I was worried that if I reraised I wouldn't get anyone for double bets. In hindsight, though, the check-raise was the correct play. I didn't think enough about the time between position of myself vis a vis the bettor. Quote #2: Call until the river. With a flop like that I would guess a couple people are on draws, but you currently have the high straight. You want them to stick in. On the turn now someone may be on a flush draw. In limit you also want them to stick in. Someone on a draw may call one bet but they may not call 2. The worst situation is you check raise the flop, Skolem reraises, everyone folds, and then Skolem won't give you any more action. So the key question is will Skolem cap the betting on the flop? If so will he keep betting? Do people really respect your raises? I don't think Skolem would have reraised on the flop, though it's quite possible. My raises were getting high respect, though. On 4th street, that second diamond had me worried. I know odds are in my favor vs a flush draw, but I'm not playing enough hands at this website (just taking advantage of the 5 hours) that I wanted to bet and destroy their pot odds to call with a flush draw. I know I sacrificed a bit of profit, but I wanted to pretty much guarantee I won the pot. Another thing I was scared of by 4th street was a fill-in card; a K or a J on the river which would possibly make me split the pot -- or, even worse, a J on board would have me lose to AK, a hand people at this table seemed to overplay. I like your idea of the check-raise on the flop, but on the turn I was playing with a bit of fear on my side, attempting to guarantee myself the pot with the early raise. Quote If Skolem is the type of player who will go beserk on 2 pair or a set I like the flop check raise. It's win win. If Skolem just calls your raise everyone else will call as well. If Skolem reraises you you can get action from him on the turn and the river. If Skolem is the type of player who will bet hard on a draw with 2 cards to go but not 1 I don't like checkraising the flop. He may reraise and scare others out, but then not give you action on the turn or river. So the best case scenario is Skolem is the type of player who will only reraise your check raise with a made hand. In that case if he has a made hand you can get action from him, and if not and he calls everyone else calls as well. If people are really respecting your raises I would call all the way, or if I though Skolem could check-raise then go dead. Otherwise I might check-raise the flop just because the position is so good, everyone else will be almost compelled to call. And the more they call, they more they feel compelled to call later. If you check raise the flop and get some callers, when the second diamond comes down they may stay in because the pot is big. If they have a gutshot they may stay in. If they have a pair they may stay in hoping for trips or two pair. The pot may be too big for them to lay down those hands. So they may at least call the turn. --- So, the more I think about it the more I like check-raising the flop. If you acted immediately *after* skolem instead of before I would say check until he stops betting. This is pretty similar to H/L games when you have the low hand and somebody else has the high. You want to trap the other players into calling as many raises as possible without scaring them. A player will call 1 bet twice much more often than 2 bets together, because their pot odds and pot committment increases after the first call. The flop was the perfect position to do this in. The bet on the turn shut out everyone. Speaking of H/L, that's what's so fun about playing Anaconda with my RL friends. They simply cap the betting every round (.50 cent raises, max of $2 bet per round). I only stick in if I've got A2345/6, sometimes will fold the 6 early on, and maybe go with Kings or higher full houses. And it's consistent free money. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 04, 2004, 01:18:54 PM I'm not missing the point. I disagree with your premise.
Quote When they have MADE the draw, you should check. I'm sorry, this makes no sense. You don't know they made the draw. You have to put them on a range of hands. Frankly, if you play like this, every river card will make some "monster under the bed" that you have to fear and you will give up way, way too much equity from people who will call you down with worse hands. You don't fear the Q because the player would be an idiot to call the whole time for a runner-runner straight. Was he an idiot here and got lucky making his runner-runner? Yes. Should you always fear every draw that gets there? No. You have to put people on a range of hands. A crappy ace is much more likely there. Do you check every river where a 3 flush hits the board? Same concept and bad poker. Heck, if a big draw gets there, a bet may make a better hand (like someone holding a crap two pair in the example we are talking about) fold. If I have a good hand, I am betting every street until I get resistance. You are going to call one bet on the river anyway if you check-call, so just bet it and fold to a raise if you believe he got there on his draw. If you get sucked out on, so be it, but playing like a scared bunny is not winning poker. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 04, 2004, 08:54:02 PM Quote from: Abagadro You have to put them on a range of hands. Frankly, if you play like this, every river card will make some "monster under the bed" that you have to fear and you will give up way, way too much equity from people who will call you down with worse hands. You don't fear the Q because the player would be an idiot to call the whole time for a runner-runner straight. A queen doesn't complete just a runner runner straight. Did you even read the hand history? It happened to complete a runner-runner in THIS case, but there are other straights it completes as well. Would they have to be an idiot to stay in with AQ? With KT? You can call my play weak-tight, but your advice of betting then folding to a reraise is the definition of weak tight. What you meant to say is this: "Bet and fold to a reraise, and hope nobody was paying attention." Next time I'm in a pot with you, I'm on a draw and I miss what do think I'll do at the river? Answer: Bet with nothing and win the pot. I repeat: that is the DEFINITION of weak tight. With my strategy you can end up MAYBE losing one bet. With your strategy you lose the entire pot to absolutely nothing. Folding to a raise on the river is a bad play almost all the time. (Maybe if there was no action and you checked the entire way it would be ok) Not only could you be throwing away the best hand, but you're advertising your "scared bunny" mentality. I'd rather possibly lose one bet than the whole pot. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 04, 2004, 09:06:45 PM Quote from: Abagadro A crappy ace is much more likely there. Do you check every river where a 3 flush hits the board? Same concept and bad poker. Poker is situational. If 6 other people are in, I have top pair, and a 3 flush hits I DO check. Even if the 3 flush does NOT hit I still probably check the river. Top pair with 6 other people in is not going to win very often. Do you fold to every reraise? If so that's the ultimate in losing poker. Beating you is as easy as clicking bet. A monkey could win all your money. That's the problem with this always/never philosophy. Don't put words in my mouth. If we are going to take specific advice and generalize it, your "fold to any raise" advice is far far worse. So let's not be idiots and claim I suggest you check EVERY river and EVERY scare card, or else we should also claim you suggest we fold to every raise. And out of those two moronic strategies yours is far more moronic. This is a stupid argument. If you are interested in arguing with the words you put in my mouth, I'll just argue with the ones you put in mine. Abagadro sez: "Always fold to a raise!" Nice strategy. See you at the final table. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 04, 2004, 09:13:21 PM You seemed to have missed the part where I said to fold to the raise IF YOU BELIEVE THE PLAYER MADE THE HAND. And yes, drawing to a gutshot in that situation with K10 is idiotic. Just calling AQ in that situation is idiotic. So you can't just assume the Q makes some moron's hand. You can't think every scare card makes a monster or you will be playing reactive, not agressive, which will kill you. You don't ram and jam with oblivion, but you have to put people on hands other than ones that beat you (just like you can't put people automatically on hands you beat).
Most times I will call the raise anyways because you will win far more bets than you will give up doing this and you can just shake your head about giving up the extra bet to the goof who sucked out on you. Frankly, watching the river get checked through when you know the dope would have donated one more bet to you is far worse if you ask me. Maximizing wins will pay off more than minimizing losses because you should be playing tighter than the average player and will, on average, win more hands you take to the showdown than lose. So the one bet you win more often will ultimately make more money than the one extra bet you give up on ocaision to the suck-out. It also player dependant. Do they play any ace? Are the addicted to any-suited cards? If you have a read and think the player made the hand, you can fold to a raise (or check-call, it's not an absolutely no play, if there were 5 other people in the hand calling to the river and a flush comes, I'm checking it faster than I can say it, but not on that hand). Folding to a raise when you know you are beat is not weak-tight, it is smart poker. It will also let you 3-bet when you have a real good hand/nuts hand and someone takes a shot at you or makes a good second-bet hand. Checking the river any time an even remotely scary card hits is seriously weak tight and will cost you lots of money. EDIT: I was composing this between your first and second posts and I believe I addressed the issue of multiple players in the hand. In the hand posted, this was not the case and the river card was not particuarly scary, so I believe your advice was wrong. Its just my opinion, which I don't claim to be sacrosanct. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 04, 2004, 09:22:39 PM Anyway...enough retarded flaming with Abagadro...
To Mediocre: If your table image was what you say, only bets sure things, check-calling the flop may have been alright. If you expect most people to fold there is no point in betting. At some tables you can play only sure things for a long time and people won't catch on. But if people were generally respecting you checking there was probably ok. It all depends on how likely they are to fold. So, the answer is, if they will fold, check. If they will call, bet :) If I had just sat down at the table and that was my first hand, and I had no reputation and didn't recognize any players, I would check-raise the flop. But again, that's not how poker is played. At low limits you can often make money playing a purely formulaic, mechanical style. But that won't maximize your money. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on April 04, 2004, 10:34:25 PM Think I could have gotten more out of this one? Giant was playing a pretty tight game, mike and Higs would call with just about anything.
Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Anger [Ad As] mike3x: calls $0.25 yugor: calls $0.25 Giant1: calls $0.25 mavvy: folds ZenKoan: folds RiverArt: folds Anger: calls $0.25 MrNoName: folds Higs: checks *** FLOP *** [9c 9h 9d] Higs: checks mike3x: checks yugor: checks Giant1: bets $0.25 Anger: raises $0.25 to $0.50 Higs: calls $0.50 mike3x: calls $0.50 yugor: folds Giant1: raises $0.25 to $0.75 Anger: raises $0.25 to $1 Betting is capped aF_iLuSHa is connected Higs: folds mike3x: folds aF_iLuSHa has returned Giant1: calls $0.25 *** TURN *** [9c 9h 9d] [Qh] Giant1: checks Anger: bets $0.50 Giant1: calls $0.50 *** RIVER *** [9c 9h 9d Qh] [8s] Giant1: checks Anger: bets $0.50 Giant1: calls $0.50 *** SHOW DOWN *** Anger: shows [Ad As] (a full house, Nines full of Aces) Giant1: mucks hand Anger collected $6.10 from pot I figured most of them would stay in with that flop, so went ahead and raised. When Giant reraised, I thought for a split second "Shit, does he have the last nine?". Then I figured he was either trying to get me to think exactly that, or that he was also holding a pocket pair. Wasn't much left for me to do after that but bet and be called. I wonder though, if I should have simply called on the flop and then raised on the Turn/River once bets had doubled. *Edited to remove stupid statement. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 05, 2004, 08:56:33 AM Would have probably raised pre-flop. I'm not a big fan of limping with aces. Most people at low limit automatically put you on AK when you raise, so you can get some good equity by raising pre-flop, especially where no A or K hits the board and people think you missed. Limping trying to trap people doesn't really appeal to me in that situation and those limits.
Would have maybe waited for the turn to start raising, but that is a thin difference and you got the equivalence of 2BB from the calling stations on the flop by taking it up 1. I probably would not have capped the flop as I would be hoping to bring along the calling stations for some more bets and also let the 3 bettor lead out on the turn where I could raise hime there as it looks like he was going to the river no matter what and was being agressive. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 05, 2004, 09:41:14 AM Mediocre-
I like the way you played the hand. Calling the flop is the right play IMHO, since you can check-raise the turn for twice the equity (since the bets double); it also disguises your hand well. Also a good time to check raise the turn, since the turn put a second flush card on the board, and you want to charge anyone on a flush draw maximum price for chasing. Betting out on the river after having 'outed' your hand is correct has well- no chance for him to check behind you and cost you a bet. Anger- I don't like the preflop limp with AA. You have the best hand- get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. I don't think I cap the betting on the flop either- with that many people in a previously unraised pot, it is not TOO unlikely that one of them is sitting on the case 9. I like the raise, but I think calling the reraise (instead of capping) is more prudent here. If you had raised preflop, I would be less afraid of the last 9 (since sane players would fold most hands that involve a 9 to a preflop raise). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 05, 2004, 10:10:55 AM Quote from: WayAbvPar Anger- I don't like the preflop limp with AA. You have the best hand- get the money in the pot when you have the best of it. I don't think I cap the betting on the flop either- with that many people in a previously unraised pot, it is not TOO unlikely that one of them is sitting on the case 9. I like the raise, but I think calling the reraise (instead of capping) is more prudent here. If you had raised preflop, I would be less afraid of the last 9 (since sane players would fold most hands that involve a 9 to a preflop raise). In THIS case I think just calling with AA helped him a lot. What do you think the other guy had? I would guess a mid pocket pair. The fact that Anger didn't raise probably caused him to overvalue his hand. That said, just limping with AA is a bad idea. The only time I will limp with AA is if I am in early position and am 95% sure someone will raise behind me, or if I am in a tournament heads-up and have been playing very aggressively. (Give the player a chance to trap themselves) I also would not cap with 3 9s out there. In this case it was the right play. Against me he would have lost to 4 nines though. The opponent was pretty tight we are told. So he had? KK or JJ but didn't raise pre-flop? Something like 77? Who knows...maybe he also just limped with KK...of course once he slowed down on the turn it was obvious he didn't have a 9. Personally I won't cap the betting unless I have the nuts or unless I think the other player is a weak/loose one. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 05, 2004, 11:21:38 AM I wouldn't fear the 9 there from the flop raiser. That big of a monster is almost always slowplayed. If he was tight as you say, he probably had a middle pair and was trying to bet people off overcards so his canoe would hold up. That's why I'd smooth call the 3-bet and raise him on the turn and hope to get action from him and someone holding the Q. If anything, I'd be worried about the smooth callers having it and even then not too worried about it. What was he holding or does pokerstars HH not show mucked showdown hands?
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 05, 2004, 12:31:07 PM Quote I've found the promised land, guys. Two websites -- William Hill and TotalBet. William Hill cash out troubles. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=614222&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1) One of the reasons I don't play at the smaller sites...I like to stick to Party, PS, UB, or Paradise- they have proven track records. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 05, 2004, 02:57:30 PM From my experience, William Hill and totalbet's 24/7 free phone help has been of great assistance, and I never had any problems. Neither have the people on BonusWhores who are very much into Cryptologic sites.
Perhaps they have higher security requirements if you win 4,500 dollars playing 1/2? Perhaps they suspected collusion. I had to go through a lot to cash out from Party/EmpirePoker; they held my cashout without telling me they hold it, and a month later with still no check (I selected the 7-20 business days option) I called them up, and after several hours on the phone, got it resolved. Turns out it was because I knew a couple guys IRL who had had their partypoker accounts suspended for being vile fuckers in the cardrooms. Y'never know. William Hill actually has much BETTER rules than EmpirePoker and PartyPoker for these situations; at Empire and Party they can (and I've seen it happen) take all your money, winnings and initial deposit, and claim it as theirs entirely at their discretion. In the William Hill agreement, they can only take your winnings if they suspect you're fucking with them. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 07, 2004, 05:04:26 PM damn PartyPoker .5/1 to hell. I played it again because they gave me a 20 dollar bonus to come back... lost with AK to A6 when he should have folded but capped preflop.
Damn them all. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 07, 2004, 06:00:17 PM $.50/$1 is far and away the most frustrating Poker you will ever play.
I have been playing $3/$6 lately, its actually been going fairly well. The players there are still terrible, but the suckouts and utter retardation are far less frequent. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 07, 2004, 06:39:07 PM Terrible play at 3/6? Really?
I'm doing a $10+1 tournament at PartyPoker now. Got BB on first hand, went into chip lead with a lucky two pair. We'll see how it goes. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 07, 2004, 07:43:18 PM My understanding is that $10/$20 is the first decent change in table behavior.
I like playing micro-limits because it teaches me to deal with the suckouts. In micro limits you can make tons of money (relative to the bets at least) if you have patience and a high tolerance for temporary frustration. I find that same mindset helps a lot in tournaments as well. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 07, 2004, 07:59:14 PM I've kinda given up on low limit for the time being as the stress with my upcoming graduation/wedding/new job makes the suckouts really piss me off.
I have, however, had a lot of fun playing in the $5 + .5 sit-n-go's. I've really started to play very good poker at least initially during the tournaments. I'm almost always the early chip leader and quite often the midway chip leader. However, I just can't finish it out. I think mostly it's just the time of night I play at. Sometimes I'll start tournies at 11:30 when I should be in bed in an hour. They run past that when the final 5 people start playing really tight, aggressive fearing losing to atrophy (big blinds can sap you later on). I start getting really impatient and annoyed especially since I just can't seem to catch cards later on. Perhaps I should just play when I know I can finish out the tournament and not feel cranky/pressed for time because it's getting late. It's awefully hard thought when you've got a fiance (wife in 2 weeks) that really doesn't approve of gambling. I'm just amazed though at how better I can play in a tournament setting when people aren't river running with extreme crap because it's only costing them a couple bucks. Anyhow, I'll post a couple interesting hands later that I thought were kinda fun. But for now I must deal with Wendy's giving me severe stomach problems.. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 07, 2004, 09:40:13 PM Here's a hand I just completely misplayed (I'm thomase12):
Quote PokerStars Game #374846712: Tournament #1355911, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2004/04/07 - 03:24:13 (ET) Table '1355911 1' Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: clubbenz (1470 in chips) Seat 3: goatse.cx (2170 in chips) Seat 4: suga (3215 in chips) Seat 7: afuhr (3250 in chips) Seat 8: thomase12 (3395 in chips) thomase12: posts small blind 75 clubbenz: posts big blind 150 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [As Ks] goatse.cx: calls 150 suga: folds afuhr: folds thomase12: calls 75 clubbenz: checks *** FLOP *** [2h Tc 4c] thomase12: bets 150 clubbenz: calls 150 goatse.cx: calls 150 *** TURN *** [2h Tc 4c] [Ah] thomase12: bets 150 clubbenz: calls 150 goatse.cx: calls 150 *** RIVER *** [2h Tc 4c Ah] [3s] thomase12: bets 150 clubbenz: folds goatse.cx: raises 1570 to 1720 and is all-in thomase12: calls 1570 *** SHOW DOWN *** goatse.cx: shows [3h 3d] (three of a kind, Threes) thomase12: shows [As Ks] (a pair of Aces) goatse.cx collected 4790 from pot thomase12 said, "ahh sunuva" *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 4790 | Rake 0 Board [2h Tc 4c Ah 3s] Seat 1: clubbenz (big blind) folded on the River Seat 3: goatse.cx showed [3h 3d] and won (4790) with three of a kind, Threes Seat 4: suga folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: afuhr (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: thomase12 (small blind) showed [As Ks] and lost with a pair of Aces I really should have either beg bigger on the turn or folded after that all in on the river. The problem is that goatse (god, that name was distracting to play with) had been betting big on the river a lot and often getting called and having shit. That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight. When I saw the set of 3s, I was just pissed. I pretty much gave up on the tourney after that. It was getting late. Still, I'm not sure in his position I would have chased a pair of pocket 3's to the river. Even he in discussion later thought his play was kind of odd, but hell, that's poker. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 07, 2004, 10:24:44 PM Typical River Rat behavior. You should have pushed all in on the Turn IMHO.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 07, 2004, 10:31:58 PM Yes, I find people's behavior between the turn and river varies extraordinarily in terms of what they'll bluff.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 07, 2004, 11:55:13 PM No raise pre-flop?
I would play this hand in one of two ways. You are out of position, that is important. #1: Just call, if I don't hit the flop give up. #2: Raise big preflop, then make another stab at it post-flop depending on how many people are still in. I don't think you bet enough preflop obviously. Post flop you were essentially on a bluff, and again didn't bet enough. The problem is, it's hard to bluff effectively if you didn't raise pre-flop. If you wanted to bluff, you have to bet more than 150. That's the minimum bet with 2 other people already in. The best hand you could possibly have is T with a mediocre kicker. Basically you don't have much and you aren't representing much either. Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn? You can call goat a river rat, but he was ahead of you on the flop. It wouldn't surprise me if you were behind the other caller as well. No pairs with 2 other people in the pot is a pure bluff. "That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight." So why did you call? According to Cloutier, your first instinct is right 95% of the time. (Or should be) You say the "problem" was that he was betting on the river and getting paid off? How is that a problem? You know he bets big on the river if he thinks he's ahead. He doesn't mess around with a value bet. He bets big, you have a pair. Easy fold. It would be a problem if he had been bluffing a lot on the river. It doesn't matter if he had 2 3s or a straight. You though he had the better hand and you were right. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 08, 2004, 12:45:51 AM Quote from: Margalis No raise pre-flop? I've been getting burned pretty bad on big slick lately. So often I just limp in with it. I also tend to do this if there are one or more callers before me. Probably bad play and most likely pyschological, I just can't seem to hit flops at all mid to late game. Quote #1: Just call, if I don't hit the flop give up. #2: Raise big preflop, then make another stab at it post-flop depending on how many people are still in. I don't think you bet enough preflop obviously. Post flop you were essentially on a bluff, and again didn't bet enough. The problem is, it's hard to bluff effectively if you didn't raise pre-flop. If you wanted to bluff, you have to bet more than 150. That's the minimum bet with 2 other people already in. The best hand you could possibly have is T with a mediocre kicker. Basically you don't have much and you aren't representing much either. Yep, I wasn't trying hard enough to get the others out of the hand early on. But I didn't feel that confident bluffing with that board out. Quote Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn? I really wasn't. I thought I had the best hand with the best kicker. Like I said before, I really misplayed it and should have bet stongly and no doubt the pocket 3's would have melted away. Quote "That all in on the river though set off alarm bells, I was pretty sure the river had given him a straight." So why did you call? Brain fart. Really, when I throw cash into a pot sometimes I have a problem listening to my oh so insightful innards. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 08, 2004, 12:53:54 AM And what do ya know, I win my first sit n go. Never went counter instinct and got some amazing draws in the end (well, when I had a 5 to 1 chip lead). Despite some blind stealing time at the end I was pretty much wire to wire first.
Took forever too. Had some bad connection problems(another guy had worse) and almost got dropped completely a couple times. You finished in 1st place (eliminated at hand #376459326). 135 hands played and saw flop: - 16 times out of 31 while in small blind (51%) - 24 times out of 29 while in big blind (82%) - 21 times out of 75 in other positions (28%) - a total of 61 times out of 135 (45%) Pots won at showdown - 8 out of 14 (57%) Pots won without showdown - 24 Showdown percentage is pretty low for me. But I lost a few check/check crap hand races. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 08, 2004, 02:08:25 AM I've had some pretty good luck at the $5 + $1 Sit n Gos at Party. The players are fairly terrible, and even if I lose I am not out much at all.
The $10 ones I very consistently finish in 4th, which is always amazingly frustrating. I've been trying desperately to try and play better when I am on the bubble, as those $10 tournies can make a hefty profit. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 08, 2004, 07:50:30 AM I've gotten back into the Stars Sit&Go's ($5.50) recently as well. I was on a terrible slide in my limit game (.50/1) down 150BB so I decided I needed a change. I'm glad I did as playing some No Limit opened my eyes to how passive I had gotten in the limit game. I had become the worst kind of calling station and didn't even realize it during my slide. After taking a series of bad beats I got so afraid of what kind of hidden hands everyone else was holding I was too scared to bet or raise on anything but the nuts. That's terrible play in these games when you're calling/folding to maniacs that will bet bottom pair to the river. No wonder I was losing so much...
Quote 135 hands played and saw flop: - 16 times out of 31 while in small blind (51%) - 24 times out of 29 while in big blind (82%) - 21 times out of 75 in other positions (28%) - a total of 61 times out of 135 (45%) Your %'s seem really high to me. So far in the 9 I've played in my return to NL I've hit money in 4 (1-1st, 2-2cd, 1-3rd), I've gone out in 4th 3 times and the other two around 6th or 7th. Not a great showing so far but I like the fact that I'm making or almost making the money in 7 of 9. My strategy is to play incredibly tight until the blinds reach the $100/$200 level. During that time my flop % is usually around 10-15%. This serves two purposes: 1.) You're only playing premiums pre-flop and raise 3-4xBB and if you hit the flop hard (TPTK or better) you move all in and either take down an average pot or double up. With the loose play in the $5.50's you'll often double up. 2.) By the time you start playing for real most of the maniacs are out of the game and at least some of the remaining players will recognize how tight you play. This gives you a great table image coming into the time when you start stealing blinds. Once the blinds reach the $100/$200 level I start playing my real game and slowly loosening up as more people drop out. Once your down to 4 if you have the chip lead it's time to turn up the heat A LOT. People usually tighten up considerably to make the money and as long as you have the lead by a decent margin you should raise any marginal hand you hold. DO NOT DOUBLE ANYONE UP THOUGH. If you hit resistance fold. You can take the occasional hit because you'll be stealing a lot of blinds. I find it's best to attack the 2 in between stacks since the short stack is usually desperate and would be more likely to call you. The two middle stacks will be trying to make the money without taking chances of going out on the bubble. Alternately as the short stack, which is often in this strategy if you don't hit any premiums in the opening rounds, you are looking to double up once it's down to 4. You can't play tight here since the other stacks will be just biding their time until you blind out. Your goal is to steal blinds and pick off limpers with well timed move-all-ins. Again attack the middle stacks since they'll be less likely to call than the big stack. This is a difficult situation to be in and it takes a bit of luck, hence the 3/9 times I've gone out on the bubble. By the end of the game if I make it to the final 2 my flop % will usually be around 30-35%. You do have to be a decent heads up player since you'll often find yourself outstacked going into heads up. Most of the people in these $5.50's though are terrible at heads up and you just have to make less mistakes than them and you'll be fine. Comments? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 08, 2004, 09:09:19 AM Last night I struck a blow for equality- I cracked AA no less than 4 times (3 in one multitable, 1 in a 2/4 ring game). In all but one case, the player with AA tried to get cute and slowplay it, and got burned every time. Let this be a lesson to you young'uns...
I washed out of the multi just short of the money (it was only a $3 buy in, so I didn't miss much), but I kicked total ass at my 2/4 table. The deck was hitting me in the face for much of the night; by the time I cooled down, the table was scared to death to play with me and I stole several pots. Ended up winning 26 BBs for the night, which got my BR a bit healthier than it has been the past week or two. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 08, 2004, 09:57:57 AM Quote from: UD_Delt stuff I think my percentages are high for a couple reasons. If you look at the numbers though, I'm only voluntarily putting money in the pot about 27.5% of the time (may be a tad higher due to pre-flop raises). 1. I play a lot of hands early on. For a 20 chip call, I'll limp in. If someone makes a strong raise, I'm out and all I've lost is 20 chips. I've caught sets, straights, and otherwise doing this. 2. I look for an opportunity to take someone fairly early. If I've got a set that really can't be beat with the cards that are out there, I'll usually be able to trap someone. Yesterday, on the big blind, I checked in with a 98o and flopped a full house. I got a AQs guy to go all in after check/calling the flop, and reraising over the top on the turn. Last 3-4 tournaments I've been the person that's knocking everyone off the table. A lot of players will not simply look at the board and fathom that their cards aren't going to hold up. Thus they'll call the 500 bet on the flop, and then get super aggressive turn/river and not realize they're drawing dead. 3. This usually leads to an early chip lead in which I can see a lot more flops and don't have to play really tight. I do, however, tighten up some as I won't be playing J6o on a 200 chip BB most of the time. I don't really switch modes in these tournaments. I pick my spots, and look for players to take out. You can pick up how players are betting towards the end and use this to your advantage to steal a lot of blinds and induce a lot of folds when you're just not holding the cards. I try to make my bets look somewhat arbitrary toward the end also, I don't necessarily push all in when I've got the nuts, sometimes a good 1k bet will tempt them to call, then you can milk for more instead of inducing a fold. I'm not sure how I'd classify my play, but I'm not as tight seeminly as the people I've been playing with. Nothing really annoys me more than when there's still 7 people in when the blinds hit 100 or 5 people left when they're hitting 200 + ante (usually means the tourny is dragging on and I just can't catch cards to do anything about it). Anyhow, I've been having a lot of fun lately, which is a shame too because I need to finish my master's project. Last couple of tables I've been in have been really talkative (in a good way) and overall it's been more fun when that's the case. A little back and forth is a great thing to cool the nerves and loosen up when you're trying to bludgeon each other off the table. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 08, 2004, 10:33:08 AM Rasix:
If you're strategy works for you then by all means continue it. I don't use that strategy because of my inability to get away from hands that are really good but not the nuts. When you're limping into pots with 6-8 callers, as is usually the case in the early rounds, unless you have the absolute nuts you could end up bleeding off a lot of chips. If you're limping in with 98o what happens when a flop comes 7-10-j two suited. You flopped the nut straight but even an all-in bet often won't get rid of anyone holding 2 pair, a set, QK, or a flush draw. Depending on how many callers your get you may still have less than a 50% chance of winning with your straight. But it's also a hand thats going to be near impossible to get away from. In a tournament situation where you can't reload those are tricky situations to be in. Flopping a fullhouse from the big blind in an unraised pot happens whether you are playing tight or loose. It's also a hand that you're not going to loose very often. The problems come when you hit your sucker straights, non-nut flushes, trips w/ no kicker, etc... I prefer to build a good table image early on and get into the final 5-6 with 1200-1600 in chips. At that point you should have respect on your raises and still enough chips to mix it up in a few hands at the 50/100 & 100/200 levels. You also have taken the time to study the other playes and you know who you are going to be able to push off of hands and who is going to call you on anything. There's usually that one lucky fool who sucked out on 3 people and is sitting on a stack of $5000 in chips who is more than willing to give some of them to you. It makes it easier to pick and choose who and when to bluff and who to milk when you have good hands. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 08, 2004, 11:08:57 AM Quote from: UD_Delt Rasix: If you're strategy works for you then by all means continue it. I don't use that strategy because of my inability to get away from hands that are really good but not the nuts. When you're limping into pots with 6-8 callers, as is usually the case in the early rounds, unless you have the absolute nuts you could end up bleeding off a lot of chips. I just watch the betting. Anything too strong and I'm gone. 20 chips to see a flop is one thing. 60-100 chips chasing the river is just pure stupidity and will bleed you badly. Quote If you're limping in with 98o what happens when a flop comes 7-10-j two suited. You flopped the nut straight but even an all-in bet often won't get rid of anyone holding 2 pair, a set, QK, or a flush draw. Depending on how many callers your get you may still have less than a 50% chance of winning with your straight. But it's also a hand thats going to be near impossible to get away from. In a tournament situation where you can't reload those are tricky situations to be in. In that situation I use a nice sized bet. A 200-300 chip bet will get rid of any pretenders, most chasers, and sometimes will be called. Someone going over the top could result in a fold on my part. You can't be afraid of what people might have when you're holding a the best hand out there. You just have to let them know you have that hand with your betting. Listen to your gut when it tells you to fold. Quote Flopping a fullhouse from the big blind in an unraised pot happens whether you are playing tight or loose. It's also a hand that you're not going to loose very often. The problems come when you hit your sucker straights, non-nut flushes, trips w/ no kicker, etc... The thing is, you can't be afraid to play these hands aggressively. Watch the board, watch the betting, if there's the possibility that you can be beat and someone's betting like they're going to beat you, it's not a bad play to just lay down the hand. I've seen people check/checking with trips when it was obvious the other person didn't have anything to write home about. If you can't be agressive playing a set when the person is just looking like a river-rat, what can you be agressive with? Quote I prefer to build a good table image early on and get into the final 5-6 with 1200-1600 in chips. At that point you should have respect on your raises and still enough chips to mix it up in a few hands at the 50/100 & 100/200 levels. You also have taken the time to study the other playes and you know who you are going to be able to push off of hands and who is going to call you on anything. There's usually that one lucky fool who sucked out on 3 people and is sitting on a stack of $5000 in chips who is more than willing to give some of them to you. It makes it easier to pick and choose who and when to bluff and who to milk when you have good hands. I'm not really happy unless I'm sitting at about 2500-3k at that point. I don't get there by suckouts because I really don't put a lot of chips on the board in a tentative position early in the game. And I heard this nugget of wisdom and have taken it to heart "never go all in on a draw". You can usually tell who the chimps are at that time. The guys that raise, reraise back and forth and then end up winning with a pair of 10's at the river. And somehow they're still in it. Of course, 5 people left and a chip lead is usually where I fall apart (50% of the time). I usually just have to stick to my plan, play my game, and make one or two good laydowns and I'll hit the final 3. Of course, I'll still fairly new to all of this, but I feel myself getting better and playing better. People are tending to respect my play at the tables now and I often get a lot of compliments for it. The hardest part for me is just following my intuition, especially about laydowns. My intuition is often shit in other parts of my life, but it seems to be dead on with poker. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 08, 2004, 01:57:18 PM "Maybe the problem is you don't think you were bluffing the turn? "
Damn it, I mean the flop here. What I wrote originally makes no sense. I meant when you had AK on the flop your bet was a bluff bet, you had nothing with 2 cards to go. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 09, 2004, 11:26:23 AM Woo. Last night brougth me back down to earth. Nothing quite like not hitting any cards all night. I think the highest cards I got all night was a set of 10's.
I still finished just one place out of money on my first tourney (was too pissed to really play good on my second one). Of course, at the end of the first someone did something that pissed me off so bad I could hardly breathe. He didn't merely hint his hand, he flat out said it. "Nut straight". So I figure, he's full of shit and push all in (I was on a really short stack and having horrible luck). And low and behold, there's mr. nut straight staring back at me. Missed a flush by a card too. Isn't this considered inappropriate tournament ettiquete? Sometimes it's just amazing at how shitty you can play when you're physically and mentally exhausted (ya I know, why the fuck did I even try) and the cards just won't hit no matter what. I broke so many of my own rules it took me an hour to fall asleep later I was so baffled by my own crappy play. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 09, 2004, 11:31:37 AM I have finally gotten into a bit of a warm streak recently- won a $10 SnG last night, then wrecked the 2/4 table for another $50-$60 in about an hour. The cards are coming, I am hitting my draws, and even when they don't, I am playing with confidence (which is worth a couple of pots an hour).
Unfortunately, I can't take advantage of my streak, due to MSN's shocking incompetence (http://f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=234). Not that I am bitter. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 09, 2004, 11:36:07 AM That really sucks. Losing internet service is never fun. Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to get really good at Links 2004.
I just couldn't hit anything. Anytime I flopped the top pair someone slow played a low set or a two pair. Or if we both had the ace I never had the kicker. It was just brutal. It was like God kicking me in the balls and chuckling the whole time. Edit: Just an indication of how bad it was: I got 72o 2 times in a row and about 6-7 times the entire night. 3 times on big blinds. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 09, 2004, 12:05:29 PM I know how you feel Rasix. Last night in our home game I got completely cold decked. We played 3 $10 8-man tournies and I went out 4th, on the bubble, in all 3. I just caught no cards at all and eventually the blind-bleeding forced my to play hands I normally wouldn't and I lost them all. Every time I tried a bluff or semi-bluff I'd get picked off and the very few times I actually got my money in while ahead I got burnt on the river.
I think the only hand I won other than a few steals was when I was finally forced all in on a blind with A5 and I beat AK when 55x flopped. But hey, that's poker. :) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 09, 2004, 12:25:59 PM My worst was I entered two tournaments in a row, lasted more than an hour in each, and never won a single hand in either, not even a blind steal.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 09, 2004, 12:30:27 PM Keep your chin up Rasix. Keep playing good cards, and stay aggressive when you have big hands. DON'T chase thin draws and 2nd best hands just because you are 'due'. If you keep playing your normal good game, things will swing around again.
I went through a low spot a couple of weeks ago- BR was under $200. I have almost tripled it in the past 2 nights, so things can change in a big hurry. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 09, 2004, 08:19:39 PM Another fun hand from .50/1 no-foldem hold-em:
Quote POKERSTARS GAME #379256188: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/04/09 - 22:58:45 (ET) Table 'Thusnelda' Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: joe333 ($12.25 in chips) Seat 2: forlucas ($12.75 in chips) Seat 3: UD_Delt ($21 in chips) Seat 4: plasman ($7.25 in chips) Seat 5: tedh ($4.75 in chips) Seat 6: BWare720 ($11.25 in chips) BWare720: posts small blind $0.25 joe333: posts big blind $0.50 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to UD_Delt [Ks Qh] forlucas: calls $0.50 UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1 plasman: calls $1 tedh: raises $0.50 to $1.50 BWare720: folds joe333: calls $1 forlucas: calls $1 UD_Delt: calls $0.50 plasman: calls $0.50 *** FLOP *** [5c Kh 4h] joe333: bets $0.50 forlucas: calls $0.50 UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1 plasman: folds tedh: calls $1 joe333: calls $0.50 forlucas: calls $0.50 *** TURN *** [5c Kh 4h] [6s] joe333: checks forlucas: checks UD_Delt: bets $1 tedh: calls $1 joe333: folds forlucas: calls $1 *** RIVER *** [5c Kh 4h 6s] [6c] forlucas: bets $1 UD_Delt: calls $1 tedh: folds *** SHOW DOWN *** forlucas: shows [6d 2d] (three of a kind, Sixes) UD_Delt: mucks hand forlucas collected $16 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $16.75 | Rake $0.75 Board [5c Kh 4h 6s 6c] Seat 1: joe333 (big blind) folded on the Turn Seat 2: forlucas showed [6d 2d] and won ($16) with three of a kind, Sixes Seat 3: UD_Delt mucked [Ks Qh] - two pair, Kings and Sixes Seat 4: plasman folded on the Flop Seat 5: tedh (button) folded on the River Seat 6: BWare720 (small blind) folded before Flop Any way to get away from hands like these? Quote POKERSTARS GAME #379220101: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2004/04/09 - 22:38:28 (ET) Table 'Tergeste' Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: AZN12 ($24.75 in chips) Seat 2: Annex ($6 in chips) Seat 3: 3 buggy tops ($15.50 in chips) Seat 4: UD_Delt ($39.25 in chips) Seat 5: Bones54 ($8 in chips) Annex: posts small blind $0.25 3 buggy tops: posts big blind $0.50 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to UD_Delt [Qh Ah] UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1 Bones54: folds AZN12: calls $1 Annex: folds 3 buggy tops: folds *** FLOP *** [Ks As 8s] UD_Delt: bets $0.50 AZN12: raises $0.50 to $1 UD_Delt: calls $0.50 *** TURN *** [Ks As 8s] [2c] PINOY_RANK#1 joins the table at seat #6 UD_Delt: checks AZN12: bets $1 UD_Delt: calls $1 *** RIVER *** [Ks As 8s 2c] [6d] UD_Delt: checks AZN12: bets $1 UD_Delt: calls $1 *** SHOW DOWN *** AZN12: shows [Ac Kh] (two pair, Aces and Kings) UD_Delt: mucks hand AZN12 collected $8.50 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $8.75 | Rake $0.25 Board [Ks As 8s 2c 6d] Seat 1: AZN12 (button) showed [Ac Kh] and won ($8.50) with two pair, Aces and Kings Seat 2: Annex (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: 3 buggy tops (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: UD_Delt mucked [Qh Ah] - a pair of Aces Seat 5: Bones54 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 09, 2004, 09:33:48 PM Well, I just discovered the fun that is a sit and go tourney. It has been a while since I have played poker and I think I ended up doing pretty good today. I played in 3 sit and go's tonight and finished fourth, second and first respectively.
The first tourney, I was second in chips quite early (between 2500-3000 chips) and then ended up playing a bit too loose. I slid down a bit to around 1k chips, then made it back up to 2k or so chips, and then got busted by this hand: Code: *********** # 48 ************** I was left with 80 chips after this hand and surprisingly I managed to make my way back up to around 1500, I managed to win a few small all in bets and then this hand came up: Code: *********** # 61 ************** After that the ante plus blinds started to wear me down although I managed to hold off long enough to place 4th. Of course that is because one guy went all in and lost, but those are the breaks. I probably could have tried to hold out a little longer since I went all in with about 450 in chips and the guy who was sitting in 3rd had about 550 chips. But again those are the breaks and I probably wouldn't have been able to hold off that long with the 200 dollar big blinds. This post has gotten pretty long, so I will leave it here for now. The second and third tourney I played went much better. I will have to go through the hand histories to look for good or bad hands. The third tourney was fun because I knocked out like 3 people (on seperate hands) pretty early in the game, so I ended up getting alot of respect and was able to bluff out a few extra hands. Edit - Yeah UD_Delt, the way to get away from those hands is to stop playing at the .50/1 tables. Although I think you just got busted on a good hand with the second one. After my last adventures with .50/1 NL tables, I decided not to play them ever again. In fact those tables are why I took such a long break from playing. Now that I have played a few sit and go's, I think I will be playing those more often. I was playing 10+1 tables, and usually playing for an hour. If I lose, then it's only 11 bucks, if place third or better than at least I have won some money. Some people chase on the sit and go's but those people usually end up out of the tourney fairly fast. Granted my knowledge about those tourneys isn't extensive, but I feel the people who went out really fast just aren't good players anyway. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 10, 2004, 03:26:44 AM Quote from: UD_Delt Another fun hand from .50/1 no-foldem hold-em: Dealt to UD_Delt [Ks Qh] forlucas: calls $0.50 UD_Delt: raises $0.50 to $1 Huh? An early position raise with KQo? I might limp if I thought nobody behind me would raise. KQ is a sucker hand. A hand like KQ you are playing for 2 pair or a straight. Raising in early position with KQ is a great way to set yourself up to be outkicked. --- The second one is much more player dependent. I would raise at a small table with AQs from just about any position. And the guy just called, so knows what he has. The only choice you really had was to fold to his reraise on the flop. It's either that or commit yourself to calling all the way. Depending on what you think of him folding might not have been a bad idea. The fact that with AK he only called your raise would make me think you should honor his reraises. If I raise in early position and a loose player has AK I expect them to reraise me. Don't know if you could have had that read at that point. You have to keep in mind that he reraised knowing you raised preflop. So you could have AA, KK, AK, AJ, KQ, QQ, etc. Obviously he thinks his hand will beat most of those. If someone raised preflop and then an ace and a king come on the flop, my expectation is that they had a pretty good chance of hitting something. So a bluff reraise there doesn't seem likely. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 10, 2004, 03:39:40 AM Quote from: Madman Dealt to TheMadMadman [7s 7c] TheMadMadman: raises 300 to 400 P Fresh: folds decoys: folds mehdipak: calls 350 Carbok: raises 1740 to 2140 and is all-in TheMadMadman: calls 1740 This is some great advice I heard once - if you are willing to call an all-in, you should have been the one raising all-in to begin with. At least then he might throw away the 8s. I don't like this call at all with 77. There are very few hands you are a clear favorite over. 22-66 are the only hands you are in good shape against. (Barring total bluffs like J4 or something...) You are in terrible shape against 88-AA, and basically even to any two overcards. In 1st position with 4 people to act behind me I wouldn't raise that much, if at all. I'drather limp and hope to catch someone with a set. The problem with a hand like 77 is on the flop if you miss a 7 there almost certainly will be overcards, and then what? on the button or small blind I might make this raise, not from first position though. Any reraise behind me will be even or better against me. A raise in first position usually indicates something strong. That means anyone raising behind you likely has you beat. If you folded to the all-in you would still have 1800 or so and the blinds were 50-100, plenty of time. Maybe you felt compelled to call because of your initial 400 investment? Basically, you were hoping to get lucky. If you felt your 400 investment meant you had to call anything after you should have raised all in to begin with. Better to put your money in first. There is a real chance he could have thrown away the 88. Anytime you feel you are compelled to call any raise, you should be the one raising. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 10, 2004, 04:59:12 AM I think it depends a lot on the table and the players. At that particular table there were a lot of big raises on lower pocket pairs. As well as a lot of big raises/all in's on Ax, Kx, Qx, etc both suited and off suited. And a good part of the time they wouldn't hit a flop at all. So I think that it was a fairly good call on my part, although I probably should have folded. I really wasn't trying to protect the 400 chip raise I made earlier, it was just I had seen a lot of big raises off fairly crappy cards without the person making their set on the flop and all the way down to the river.
I mostly posted that hand because it was the first time I had ever seen a 4 of kind come up on the board before. I think that I just have a different style of play than you. You can say that I don't know the proper plays, which hands to hold and which to fold preflop, but it really doesn't matter to me. I said it earlier in this thread, I am really just playing for fun. I am not trying to make a living off of it. I am still currently about 100 bucks up from my original deposit, so I still feel pretty good about my play. You will also notice that even though I lost that 77 hand, I still managed to almost win money. I probably could have if I had been a little more patient at towards the end. Granted some of that was luck with an couple of all in bets, especially since at least once was a big blind. You would probably like my play in the second tourney I played today even less, I ended up going down to around 400-500 chips quite quickly but I managed to make my money back and ended up finishing second. My third tourney today was my best, I don't know if I was just getting great cards or if the players were really bad (a couple of them were), but by the 25th hand of that tourney 6 people had been knocked out and I caused 5 of them. I finished first in that one, but that isn't hard to do when you have over 10k in chips on the 26th hand and only 3 people are left in the game. I played 4 (I think) more sit and go's tonight, but I didn't so as well as the first 3. I finished all of those in 5th or 6th place. I was a bit tired though and played a little too loose. I also got busted a few times with good preflop or flop bets that got busted on the river, which is never a good thing. I am sure I could play better, but I am also sure that I could play a lot worse. I think it is a matter of style and of course playing against the other people on the table. Sometimes it's just a matter of gut calling a 92o preflop and watching your boat come in. Sometimes it's a matter of folding that 92o and cringing when your boat comes in. Alright, I think I am getting too Zen here or something, so I am gonna shut up. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 10, 2004, 01:19:02 PM I'm not making a stand with 77 in EP with 22 times the BB in front of me ever. Doesn't matter what the table is like. As well stated above, you are either a slight favorite or a big dog. Not worth it. Middle and low pocket pairs are WAY overvalued in tourney play.
I wouldn't even limp with it. Muck it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 10, 2004, 02:25:24 PM God, some people in these tournaments are beyond repair. I'm in a tourney right now where someone just thought it was a great idea that another player called an AKs all in with pocket 3's. I swear, too many people are learning poker from Gus Hansen. I've seen some stupid loose play lately especially going for broke with low pocket pairs (no offense Madman).
I played better last night finished 4th in my first sit'n'go with a couple of really bad beats. Finished 2nd in the second tournie with having a short stack most of the time. Couldn't really pull off the head 2 head as he had a nice 6 to 1 chip lead going in. Still haven't been catching cards lately and have been mostly weaseling my way to the end. At least it's teaching me how to survive short stacked... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 10, 2004, 04:12:27 PM None taken Rasix.
As I said, I tend to play the table a bit more, 9 times out of 10 I will limp in on the 77 and fold if there is a big raise. But the way the table was playing, I went ahead and took the chance. It just didn't pay off that time and that's the way it goes sometimes. I tend to play a little loose and sometimes it bites me in the ass. Sometimes it pays off big. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 10, 2004, 04:33:15 PM Funny enough, today during one where I finished fourth right and left people were calling all-ins with low pairs, and winning. And of course, I lost to pocket 4's with AQs when the guy drew a A-5 straight.
And again, like yesterday, I finish 2nd in my follow up tourney and have really no shot at winning due to the other guy (at heads up) having an overwhelming chip lead. The guy was playing good and his collossal chip count allowed him to bully me and others around some. It's hard to call with Q5o when the guy's betting 4x BB about every other hand. The other guy(who finished 3rd) in the last 3 was just a crazy man. He was down to 60 chips early on but a ton of all in lucky draws and blind stealing and he made it back. He went all in often on just draws and just about every time he made a play at stealing the blinds. He was a fucking yo-yo. My last 4 tournie histories for some analysis: Quote You finished in 2nd place (eliminated at hand #380570624). 129 hands played and saw flop: - 6 times out of 29 while in small blind (20%) - 19 times out of 29 while in big blind (65%) - 12 times out of 71 in other positions (16%) - a total of 37 times out of 129 (28%) Pots won at showdown - 3 out of 7 (42%) Pots won without showdown - 19 You finished in 4th place (eliminated at hand #380456045). 90 hands played and saw flop: - 7 times out of 15 while in small blind (46%) - 8 times out of 16 while in big blind (50%) - 7 times out of 59 in other positions (11%) - a total of 22 times out of 90 (24%) Pots won at showdown - 4 out of 5 (80%) Pots won without showdown - 8 You finished in 2nd place (eliminated at hand #379710647). 114 hands played and saw flop: - 13 times out of 29 while in small blind (44%) - 13 times out of 28 while in big blind (46%) - 15 times out of 57 in other positions (26%) - a total of 41 times out of 114 (35%) Pots won at showdown - 7 out of 9 (77%) Pots won without showdown - 18 You finished in 4th place (eliminated at hand #379628099). 76 hands played and saw flop: - 5 times out of 15 while in small blind (33%) - 8 times out of 14 while in big blind (57%) - 15 times out of 47 in other positions (31%) - a total of 28 times out of 76 (36%) Pots won at showdown - 1 out of 2 (50%) Pots won without showdown - 11 It's been weird, I'm either playing really tight (for me)or I'm just not really catching the cards. It's been working, I haven't been blowing people out lately, but I've been staying in the tournaments longer and making correct decisions more times than not. Perhaps it's a bit tigher too, I'm not limping in with cards like J6o often and not at all later in the game. Too often you catch the lower pair and lose money feeling out the hands of others. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 11, 2004, 12:59:35 AM I can't seem to get away from this pattern: first tourney is just out of money, second is in money.
I think I've done this now 5 times in a row. It's like it takes one game to hone my concentration and then the second it' just comes all together. This last one I went into heads up about 2 to one chips down and just mopped up. Playing short stacked is an absolute blast (especially if your opponent is a die hard ABC poker player). Ok, I guess this comes to my actual point. At what point does the difficulty (quality of players) increase? And what's a good formula for buyin to bankroll for determining what you can play? I want more competiton, but I'm not too down with tossing cash around halfhazardly (fiance is actually cool with the low limit and 5 dollar sitngos). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Murgos on April 11, 2004, 07:43:51 AM I think the quality of players is almost always random, but the higher you go in limits the more you can count on one or two good players to be at any given table.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 11, 2004, 05:48:11 PM These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight:
Code: *********** # 10 ************** I probably should have stayed in regardless of the raise, but I was trying to play tighter than I normally do. A few hands after that I lost a bunch of chips to a late pair that was higher than mine. I had to play short stacked for quite a bit of the game and ended up coming in 3rd. Here are the stats for that sit and go: 111 hands played and saw flop: - 9 times out of 25 while in small blind (36%) - 12 times out of 25 while in big blind (48%) - 20 times out of 61 in other positions (32%) - a total of 41 times out of 111 (36%) Pots won at showdown - 8 out of 13 (61%) Pots won without showdown - 20 Here is an strangely interesting hand that I had in a different tourney: Code: *********** # 19 ************** I ended up losing 180 chips on that play, but Abrego tripled his money. Overall I just couldn't get any cards today, and when I did have something good, someone else had something better. Although I did manage to hit a couple of rivers that broke people, but that was late in the day just before I stopped playing. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 11, 2004, 08:17:39 PM Quote from: Madman These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight. I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it. I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house. I've folded AQo when someone went all in, and the flop landed a nut straight. You can't think of those as lost opportunities or a mistake on your part, they're just a hand you didn't feel was strong enough to begin with. In other situations you might think differently, but apparently not in that situation. Every once in a while I'll play a hand I normally won't. But really, you stray too far from what you're comfortable with and you just won't win. That J2s I might have played early on if I had already won a bit, but in your position, at that time in the game, I likely would have folded. As for your second hand, AQo isn't something I'd go for broke like that on. I guess you felt compelled to call with the raise, but I don't know, all depends on the situation. There were still 9 people left and it seemed like a lot of poker was due to be played. Betting on draws early on can get you out of a tourney when you've still got a lot left to offer. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 11, 2004, 08:48:17 PM Quote from: Rasix Quote from: Madman These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight. I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it. I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house. I've folded 27o when it would have given me a full house...and? Why would you EVER play J6o? What are you hoping for? JJ6? J66? 266? Heads up I might raise with J6o, 3 way action I might call from the small blind...that's pretty much it. J6o is essentially 27o. You will win if you get lucky..that's it. J6 is hand that will win on a miracle flop... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 11, 2004, 10:13:55 PM Quote from: Margalis Quote from: Rasix Quote from: Madman These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight. I'd kill that way of thinking before I got too engrossed in it. I've folded J6o when someone made a raise (probably wouldn't play it anyways) and the flop would have given me a full house. I've folded 27o when it would have given me a full house...and? Why would you EVER play J6o? What are you hoping for? JJ6? J66? 266? Heads up I might raise with J6o, 3 way action I might call from the small blind...that's pretty much it. J6o is essentially 27o. You will win if you get lucky..that's it. J6 is hand that will win on a miracle flop... And that was exactly my point. It's a crap hand. I folded it. Flop would have given me a great hand. Doesn't change the the fact that I'd fold it 95% of the time. IE, no use even thinking about changing your play over what "might have been". Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 12, 2004, 06:23:32 AM Quote from: Rasix Quote from: Madman These are the kinds of hands I miss when I try to play too tight. Every once in a while I'll play a hand I normally won't. But really, you stray too far from what you're comfortable with and you just won't win. That J2s I might have played early on if I had already won a bit, but in your position, at that time in the game, I likely would have folded. See that is the thing, I was playing that game much tighter than I normally do. If I had been playing my normal style, I would have called in for 60 chips on that J2s hand. I realize that is still a risky play, but I generally feel comfortable doing it. If the nut flush had come in I probably would have sat on it and folded if anyone bet big, since QKA could beat me. I wouldn't think twice about folding J2o, but if its suited then I will usually play as long as I feel it is fairly cheap. To me 60 chips to see that flop would be cheap, if someone had raised 200+, then I would have folded. As for the AQo, yeah that was a risky bet that I got away with. Normally, I wouldn't call all in on something like that, but at that point I was kind of trying to protect my original bet. I am actually glad that Chorizoeggs made the big raise and I called it. I was planning on just calling the 100 chip raise from Abrego and if I did then I would have been down a lot more then I ended up. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 12, 2004, 07:06:03 AM Quote Ok, I guess this comes to my actual point. At what point does the difficulty (quality of players) increase? I played 2 sit&go's at the same time last night to test this for myself. One was a $5.50 and one was a $10+$1. The $5 jumped out to the quick lead with 2 players dropping in the first round of blinds. The $10 took until the second level then it caught up. After that they stayed about even with the $5 losing a player first then the $10 catching up. Once it was down to the final 4 thought the difference was a bit more noticable. The $10 was much tougher than the $5. There was a lot more raising and reraising both pre and post-flop on the $10 table. The $5 table was very tight going into the money and it was easy to steal blinds. On both tables I went into the final 5 with the chip lead after oddly enough hitting sets with low pocket pairs simultaneously on both tables. The $5 table I won after getting into heads up outstacked 3:1. The $10 I of course went out 4th after falling victim to a combination of FPS (fancy play syndrome) and stupidity. $75/$150 level and I'm dealt Q4 in the BB. 4/5 call in to a flop of Q7x. SB checks, I figure with my horrible kicker I'll try and take it down with a smallish bet or to see where I am so I bet $300 (half the pot). First 2 fold and the SB calls. Not exactly what I wanted to see since he can now have just about anything out of the SB. Turn brings an A. I'm positive he doesn't have AQ as I know he would have raised pre-flop. A7 or A8 is possible though but I want to find out so when he bets out another $300 I raise to $600 figuring if he doesn't have the A I might get a fold. He reraises another $300 and this is where the stupidity kicks in. Instead of taking the information he provided and folding I instead call. River bring a blank and he bets another $900. With stupidity fully kicking in I convince myself that he's missed a draw and is making a play and I call his bet after using up half my time bank. He shows Q7 for the flopped 2 pair. I would say the $10 is only marginally tougher. If in a $5 table you run into 2-3 people who have heard of Sklansky at a $10 table you might run into 3-4. Quote And what's a good formula for buyin to bankroll for determining what you can play? I know in the past I've gone about 8 in a row without making the money and normally I have around a 45% in the money rate. I would say to have at the very least a bankroll of 10x the buy-in + fee. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2004, 09:39:25 AM The only time I would ever play J2s is from the big blind in an unraised pot. It is complete trash- even if you get a miracle flop and hit your flush, there are still 3 flushes that beat you out there. Don't fall into the trap of playing hands just because they are suited.
Quote can't seem to get away from this pattern: first tourney is just out of money, second is in money. Are you playing single table (9 player) tournies? If so, give the 2 tables a try. They pay 4 places, and you get a better return on your money. If you have any kind of a clue how to play (which you obviously do), the extra money and extra paid spot should trump the fact that you have to beat 9 additional players. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 12, 2004, 10:20:43 AM Anyone want to offer up some book reports?
Me and 2 friends at work are each planning on buying a book on poker then trading them around as we finish them. All 3 of us are low-limit holdem players. One of my friends already picked up Winning Low Limit Hold-Em by Lee Jones. I plan on getting Theory of Poker by Sklansky. Any suggestions on what the third book should be? I was thinking Sklansky's book on tournament poker but I'm not sure the other 2 are much into the tournaments. Super/System was my other though but I read that an updated version will be coming out in October so we should probably hold off on that one. Any other thoughts? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2004, 10:43:20 AM Theory of Poker is a must read. I would suggest Sklansky's Hold 'Em books as well- the first is pretty elementary, but has good building blocks. HPFAP is much more in depth and advanced...I need to go read it again after having played for several months; I am sure I will get a lot more out of it.
Sklansky's tournament book is decent, but there is nothing earthshattering in it. If you play a lot of tournaments, most of it is stuff you will figure out on your own. Not a bad way to see it all together in print to reinforce things though. One thing about Sklansky- if you follow his teachings to the letter, you will be TIGHT, almost to a fault. It is a good way to learn the game though, since you can loosen up under certain game conditions once you learn to recognize what those conditions are. I haven't read Lee Jones, but I hear mostly good things about it. Maybe I will break down and use some FPPs and buy it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 12, 2004, 11:07:29 AM Why would you buy a tournament book from someone who sucks at tournaments?
If you are a low-limit holdem player I suggest the book by Gary Carson. (I forget the name) I think it is the best low-limit hold'em book, at least that I've read. (Better than Lee Jones book IMO) If you are looking for tournament advice I suggest the Pot-Limit/No-Limit book by Cloutier and McEvoy. (90% Cloutier) The book is a bit disorganized but it has useful strategy from someone who actually is good at tournaments. There were a lot of parts (especially the "Practice Hands" section) where I was like "WTF!" It wasn't obvious at all. I would also point out the the thing it stresses most is reading opponents, something Sklanksy doesn't really care about. Super System covers a wide variety of games, it would be nice if you are looking to expand your horizons. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2004, 11:22:22 AM I would be more inclined to read Carson if he wasn't such an asshole.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 12, 2004, 11:29:27 AM This carson book?
The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker: A Comprehensive Guide to Playing and Winning And I have to agree with WayAbvPar after reading some of his posts on RGP but then again if he has good advice I'll leach off of anyone if it'll make me some extra money. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 12, 2004, 11:41:10 AM Quote from: WayAbvPar Are you playing single table (9 player) tournies? If so, give the 2 tables a try. They pay 4 places, and you get a better return on your money. If you have any kind of a clue how to play (which you obviously do), the extra money and extra paid spot should trump the fact that you have to beat 9 additional players. Yah, I should probably play the 18's when I have the time to. I mostly play the 9's because at most they usually run an hour thirty. I think an 18 might fit my style a little better. I played one 9 last night that was beyond frustrating. I should have made the money but one guy tried bluffing the short stack with a 84s. I really don't even know why the fucker even played the pot. It really reeked of collusion. This guy had no business even making it that far, but him and another would go wire to wire with big bets all to the river and the guy with more chips would fold to a $100 bet, it made no fucking sense. Getting cold decked later on didn't help much. And here's the kicker, I had top pair 2 times and then get beat each time with someone slow playing AA. One time I beat AA when I was all in when a lucky river gave me a set of Q. I've gotta get better at smelling the traps. I'm hemoraging chips badly to people slow playing AA, KK, etc when the board is all lower cards. That was a funny tournament though. This one player was just fucking terrible. He went out when he called an all in on the river with absolutely nothing. I guess the guy thought he had a straight, but his high card 4 didn't hold up. I had to play Splinter Cell after that and club some terrorists. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2004, 11:44:58 AM Quote I've gotta get better at smelling the traps. That just comes with experience more than anything. I was watching a hand a few days a go (after I had folded preflop). The way it was played, I would have bet my house that the lead bettor had AA or possibly KK (he showed AA and took down a huge pot). He played it quite well, but with enough experience in that situation you learn to look for it. Of course, it probably helped that I was out of the hand and thus my judgment was not clouded by my own cards. Quote I had to play Splinter Cell after that and club some terrorists. My choice is Raven Shield, but otherwise that is exactly how I vent my frustrations! LOL Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 12, 2004, 03:14:40 PM I am going to let this hand speak for the way the last couple of days have been going for me...
***** Hand History for Game 521171324 ***** 3/6 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Apr 12 17:57:37 EDT 2004 Table Table 12164 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button Total number of players : 10 Seat 1: mb1944 ( $194.18) Seat 2: Goezi ( $84) Seat 3: seatrain ( $157) Seat 4: xavjane ( $31.18) Seat 5: laceratedsky ( $100) Seat 6: nstabile ( $84) Seat 7: RAPOS ( $42.25) Seat 8: ixion ( $131) Seat 9: Drennie ( $202) Seat 10: vakil ( $167.50) xavjane posts small blind (1) laceratedsky posts big blind (3) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to laceratedsky [ 9s, 5s ] nstabile folds. RAPOS calls (3) ixion calls (3) Drennie folds. vakil calls (3) mb1944 folds. Goezi folds. seatrain folds. xavjane calls (2) laceratedsky checks. ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, Jd, 9c ] xavjane checks. laceratedsky bets (3) RAPOS calls (3) ixion raises (6) to 6 vakil calls (6) xavjane folds. laceratedsky raises (6) to 9 RAPOS calls (6) ixion calls (3) vakil calls (3) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Td ] laceratedsky checks. RAPOS checks. ixion bets (6) vakil raises (12) to 12 laceratedsky calls (12) RAPOS calls (12) ixion calls (6) ** Dealing River ** : [ 9h ] laceratedsky bets (6) RAPOS calls (6) ixion folds. vakil raises (12) to 12 laceratedsky raises (12) to 18 RAPOS folds. vakil raises (12) to 24 laceratedsky calls (6) ** Summary ** Main Pot: $150 | Rake: $3 Board: [ 5h Jd 9c Td 9h ] mb1944 balance $194.18, didn't bet (folded) Goezi balance $84, didn't bet (folded) seatrain balance $157, didn't bet (folded) xavjane balance $28.18, lost $3 (folded) laceratedsky balance $52, lost $48 [ 9s 5s ] [ a full house, Nines full of fives -- 9s,9c,9h,5s,5h ] nstabile balance $84, didn't bet (folded) RAPOS balance $12.25, lost $30 (folded) ixion balance $107, lost $24 (folded) Drennie balance $202, didn't bet (folded) vakil balance $269.50, bet $48, collected $150, net +$102 [ 9d Tc ] [ a full house, Nines full of tens -- Tc,Td,9d,9c,9h ] Kill me now please... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 12, 2004, 03:28:25 PM Wow- that is prison rape level brutal. Not that 95 is a monster, but when you lose boat to boat...owwie.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on April 12, 2004, 03:39:57 PM Losing full houses is just the most dreadful experience. I am not sure if I agree with cold calling 2 bets on the turn with low 2 pair after showing strength on the flop, though.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 12, 2004, 05:43:12 PM It has certainly been an interesting weekend. Last night I played for 4 hours at one table, we had a complete maniac there. I could not get cards to save my life, and when I did she would crack them every single time. Just to give you an idea...
I had KK 3 times and lost all 3 times I had AA 2 times and lost 1 time I had AK 4 times and lost 3 times The list goes on and on... Just beat after hideous beat...It was unbelievable. I just could not take advantage of this person who would cap the preflop raising with any 2 suited cards. I was up to $388 on Saturday...I am now down to about $150. Time to move down limits...I'll probably play $1/$2 to try and catch up, and participate in more of the low end Sit n Gos as I seem to do okay at those. I am feeling violated, and I am deathly afraid it is going to affect my play when I get back to it. Luckily I work for the next 3 days so I likely won't be playing much. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 13, 2004, 11:09:45 PM 8-man tournament tonight, 5 dollar buy-in.
Finished 4th. Was at 2nd chip-stack, I bet 2 dollars on flop (out of 7 dollars in my stack), short stack moves all-in. Two more for me to call. 2 4 10 on the board, I have a 6 10 in hand. I put him on a 10-big, and folded. He had ace 7, so I kinda kicked myself on not reading him right. Flash forward a few rounds, and everyone is in the pot for a dollar. With 5 dollars in my entire stack, I feel I have good equity with my AJ to move all-in preflop. They could all fold (indeed, 2 of them did, and the third almost did), and the odds that I was dominated were very low. The guy with the same number of chips as me flips over 33 and thinks about what to do for about 5 minutes. He doesn't see my cards, but he knows I either have him dominated with a bigger pair or it's a relatively even shot with overcards vs the pair. After a lot of thought-wracking, he calls. The board is turned up rags, and I'm out. I kinda fault myself for not using my talking game to make him think I had a big pocket pair. Especially when it's all people you know, the psychology of talking it out is important -- maybe if I had talked it right, I could have folded him. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 14, 2004, 09:56:49 AM From the WTF file- Sometimes you just gotta love total dumbasses.
Quote *********** # 7 ************** PokerStars Game #386319408: Tournament #1404736, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/04/14 - 00:51:17 (ET) Table '1404736 2' Seat #3 is the button Seat 1: talisa (1500 in chips) Seat 2: RopeADope1 (1480 in chips) Seat 3: wayabvpar (2040 in chips) Seat 4: udontknowJD (1420 in chips) Seat 5: kenrock (1500 in chips) Seat 6: allin212 (1500 in chips) Seat 7: elenano (1500 in chips) Seat 8: Pfirsheezy (1140 in chips) Seat 9: Bluewave (1420 in chips) udontknowJD: posts small blind 10 kenrock: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to wayabvpar [Ac As] allin212: folds elenano: folds Pfirsheezy: calls 20 Bluewave: folds talisa: folds RopeADope1: calls 20 wayabvpar: raises 60 to 80 udontknowJD: folds kenrock: calls 60 Pfirsheezy: calls 60 RopeADope1: calls 60 *** FLOP *** [2s 8c 3c] kenrock: checks Pfirsheezy: bets 400 RopeADope1: folds wayabvpar: calls 400 kenrock: folds *** TURN *** [2s 8c 3c] [Jh] Pfirsheezy: bets 400 wayabvpar: raises 560 to 960 Pfirsheezy: calls 260 and is all-in *** RIVER *** [2s 8c 3c Jh] [5c] *** SHOW DOWN *** Pfirsheezy: shows [Qh 9c] (high card Queen) wayabvpar: shows [Ac As] (a pair of Aces) wayabvpar collected 2450 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 2450 | Rake 0 Board [2s 8c 3c Jh 5c] Seat 1: talisa folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: RopeADope1 folded on the Flop Seat 3: wayabvpar (button) showed [Ac As] and won (2450) with a pair of Aces Seat 4: udontknowJD (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: kenrock (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 6: allin212 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: elenano folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: Pfirsheezy showed [Qh 9c] and lost with high card Queen Seat 9: Bluewave folded before Flop (didn't bet) He limps from EP with Q9o (mistake #1), then calls a preflop raise (#2). He then bets into the preflop raiser with a Q high and is called (a bluff, but ill-timed- mistake #3). The turn card does not help him, so he bets out again, and then calls all in with a Q high (mistakes 4 and 5). I would love to just ask him exactly WTF he was thinking, or if perhaps his pet monkey wrestled the mouse out of his hands... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 14, 2004, 10:24:35 AM Even I wonder what the fuck he was thinking. The only thing I can think of is that he was chasing the straight. Although you have to wonder at the mentality of someone who tries to bluff out a straight/two pair to a preflop raiser. Especially when the board doesn't really turn up a good straight on the flop.
I would probably still see the flop, even knowing that you probably have a pocket pair or AK with the raise, but I admittedly play fairly loose. However, even I wouldn't try to bluff bet on that crappy flop. And if you did anything other than check I would fold. The only way I take that hand to the river is if you decide to check every bet. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 14, 2004, 10:46:45 AM Assuming for a second he wasn't just a clueless idiot, my guess is he fell victim to a combination of Tilt and FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome).
First of all he's down to 1140 in chips and it looks like it's only 3-4 hands into the Sit&Go. That means he's lost a couple of hands or a decent sized pot already. He sees Q9 and decides to give it a go and limps. After your raise there's already one caller of the raise and one other limper yet to act. He calls the raise assuming the other limper will also call so there will be $320 in the pot for his $60 call. Not a call I would make but not entirely horrible after making the mistake of trying to limp Q9. Rag-flop: At this point he's putting you mistakenly on overs rather than a pp. So, he makes his bluff, overbetting the pot as if he hit a set and is trying to move the flush draw off it. You call and now he's thinking you have either overs or a high pocket pair. Turn - 5c: This brings the 3 flush out. Now he's thinking that maybe he can bully you off the pot by making you think he's either hit a set, flush or straight so he bets out again. It's another semi-bluff on his part as he does still have overcard, gutshot, and flush draws. You reraise him all-in, at this point he only has 260 left, into a huge pot that he thinks is giving him a lot of outs. It was just a bad read putting you on overcards and a badly timed bluff that got him trapped into being pot commited. Still a horrible play but at least I can understand it. Edit: Then again now you can all understand why I fall victim to FPS myself when I'm thinking that anyone in low-limit S&Go's actually thinks like this. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 14, 2004, 11:51:15 AM I have a question that's been bugging me for a little bit now involving the value of unsuited connectors. I finally have about 6000 hands in poker tracker (PT) and I'm seeing that a much higher percentage of my wins are coming from flushes as opposed to straights.
This is most likely because I will usually play Axs from mid-late position if I can limp in with a low chance of being raised. Looking in PT I am an overall winner on most of the Axs hands with I think one or two being a small loss. On the other hand I hardly ever play unsuited connectors less than QK which is the reason I'm seeing less straights than flushes. The only time I will play these hands is from the BB or occasionaly from the SB if it will only cost half a SB to see the flop. Should I add more unsuited connectors to my play from late position similar to how I'm playing Axs or would this overall be a -ev play? My thinking of late is that the low connectors would be easier to get away from since there is really no way you play on even if you hit a pair since there is usually going to be overcards to your pair out there. The reason the lower Axs cost me money is the occasional A on the flop when I have no kicker. Any thoughts? Edit: I want to add that I do play suited connectors the same way as Axs, my question is only related to unsuited connectors and whether or not they have value in late position. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 14, 2004, 11:52:20 AM Quote Turn - 5c: This brings the 3 flush out. Now he's thinking that maybe he can bully you off the pot by making you think he's either hit a set, flush or straight so he bets out again. It's another semi-bluff on his part as he does still have overcard, gutshot, and flush draws. You reraise him all-in, at this point he only has 260 left, into a huge pot that he thinks is giving him a lot of outs. Actually, the 3rd club hit on the river (which is why I put him all in on the turn- if he was on a flush draw, I wanted to charge him for it). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 14, 2004, 11:54:42 AM Woops, you're right. I missed that. Nevermind then his turn play was atrocious.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 14, 2004, 12:03:34 PM Re- unsuited connectors-
Depending on how aggressive/wild the table is, I will play things like T9 or even 87 from the cutoff or button, and almost anything connected from my small blind (for 1/2 a bet). I won't call raises, but if I can get in cheap to see a flop I am all over it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 15, 2004, 07:07:48 PM AbsolutePoker freeroll -- I finish in dead last place!
We start with 1500 in chips. After blinds and random seeing the flop, I'm at 1200. I get KQ on the button, hand four or so. I bet 500. Two other guys call. The pot is now huge. Flop comes 6 Q 7. I go all-in for 700. Everyone folds except one other guy, who calls (it's basically his all-in too). Turns out he has pocket 10's. The turn comes a Q. The river comes a 10. And out I go! Glad it was a freeroll. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 15, 2004, 11:58:35 PM Don't go broke on a hand like KQ!
500 sounds like a huge bet with KQ if it was near the start of the tournament with T1500 starting. What were the blinds at that point. I hate making raises with hands like KQ because anyone who calls likely has you beat. The bigger the bet, the more true this is. Same with an early position raise with AJ or AT....anyone who calls is probably ahead of you. KQ isn't even ace high...there is no way I'm betting almost half my stack preflop when I'm an underdog to A2. I would either limp with KQ or make a standard raise, (3x or 4x blind) but if that is almost half my stack I'll just fold and wait for something better. KQ is the type of hand you can get into a lot of trouble with. Quote from: Mediocre I get KQ on the button, hand four or so. I bet 500. Two other guys call. The pot is now huge. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 16, 2004, 07:05:53 AM For a freeroll I would do the same. There is no point in playing those if you can't at least triple up in the first 10 minutes. There are usually 1000+ people in those and only the top few places pay anything worth while.
First couple good hands you get move all-in. You will get called as most people play them the same way. Hope to double up and then do it again. Either you'll be out in 10 minutes or you'll be moving forward with a healthy stack. Trying to play a freeroll conservatively is just an excersize in frustration unless you are doing it only for the sake of practice and are not interested in winning anything. When I first started playing the freerolls and the $1 buy-in tournaments I tried to take them seriously but after playing so many of them for 2-3 hours and getting nothing I changed my attitude. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 16, 2004, 09:06:07 AM I don't play freerolls any longer, mostly because I can't take them seriously. Even the $1-$3 multis are hard-pressed to keep me playing my best poker- I can play there for 4 hours, make the final table, and win $100, or I can go play a couple of SnGs or a ring game and make at least that much in 1/2 the time.
I would caution against playing differently just because it is a freeroll- it lets bad habits seep into your game. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 16, 2004, 09:56:00 AM WayAbvPar:
This link is for you given your avatar: http://cardsspeak.servebeer.com/ The Big Lebowski broken down into poker analogies... Brilliant. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 16, 2004, 10:16:59 AM Heh- that was fun! I gotta watch TBL when I get home now =)
My fav- Quote The Dude: Walter, I love you, but sooner or later, you're going to have to realize the fact that you're a god damn moron. This one goes to Phil Hellmuth. Nuff said. ROFL! Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Mediocre on April 16, 2004, 12:29:13 PM Delt hit it on the head as far as how freerolls go.
My friends were standing around me though, chanting "WORST POKER PLAYER EVER." Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 16, 2004, 03:46:14 PM Finally won a SnG again. I think I am playing a bit tighter lately and I have noticed it has helped me a bit. I still make some bad bets, but they feel right at the time. Some were actually good bets that got busted on the river, and some were just dumb bets. I am also getting used to playing short stacked because of a few of those bad bets and because I have been playing tighter I have been able to stay in the games. Although I still have trouble getting into the money when I end up short stacked early in the game, but I usually end up like 4th or 5th.
Here are my stats from the tourney: You finished in 1st place (eliminated at hand #390308064). 110 hands played and saw flop: - 15 times out of 30 while in small blind (50%) - 16 times out of 29 while in big blind (55%) - 13 times out of 51 in other positions (25%) - a total of 44 times out of 110 (40%) Pots won at showdown - 15 out of 19 (78%) Pots won without showdown - 23 About 60 of those hands were played between the final 3 people. Fortunately I didn't have to play this tourney short stacked because of this hand: Code: *********** # 9 ************** When DW first raised I figured he had something like Ax or KQ, but when he reraised my raise, I figured he had a good pocket pair. Although I wasn't expecting the AA because I would have raised more if I had AA. If anything other than the T had come down on the flop, I would have folded on the first bet. What I can't figure out is why he chased me all the way to the showdown. I suppose he just figured I was in on a pocket pair and was betting heavy to try and buy the pot. After that I pretty much stayed in first or second in chips even when I got busted by this hand: Code: *********** # 48 ************** I made a mistake here, I checked on the turn after I picked up my 3 of a kind. I was looking for a bet so I could raise, but instead I should have just bet out hard. My next mistake came because I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been and didn't realize a possible straight came down on the river. Three hands later WIZARD37 went out and the chip total looked like this: Seat 1: TheMadMadman (3760 in chips) Seat 3: Defensor (1395 in chips) Seat 8: BNYLVR (8345 in chips) From there on BNYLVR went steadily down, and Defensor and I pretty much went steadily up. Finally, I managed to break BNYLVR on this hand: Code: *********** # 101 ************** I suppose that play was perhaps a bit risky, but it certainly felt like the right thing to do at the time and it paid off. The best thing about it was just after that hand this was said: BNYLVR [observer] said, "you play tight not good". My response was: TheMadMadman said, "heh...tight can be good" About 9 hands later I managed to pull a KK as the big blind and Defensor went all in on a KT suited. That was all she wrote. That tourney was probably my best played tourney since I started playing them. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 17, 2004, 12:04:54 AM Did my first real live sit n go at my bachelor's party. I didn't win, we ended up only doing top 2 in cash after one guy had to leave early and cash out after he was up a lot (didn't feel like making it an issue that he BOUGHT in and there wasn't a cash out).
What bothered me is that my friend won playing horrid poker. And he was trying to give others poker advice like, "it's not how you play the flop, it's what cards you get afterwards". He basically saw every flop. Anytime he had anything, he'd go to the river. In a flop I raised 5x the big blind he called with 7 3o and flopped a straight. At least my cousin who finished second would actually fold cards once in a while(you can tell he played some). Now my friend who I only get to see a couple time a year it seems now will get to hold this over my head. I just hope this guy doesn't buy in to an online casino. I introduced this guy to Everquest and he's been hooked on MMORPGs since (4-5 hours a night for at least 5 years now). I don't want to be responsible for fucking up his life twice. It was really odd playing with people who don't play. They see a shit ton of flops. It was like playing on a .5/1 table where everyone river runs but there's not a betting limit. I found myself playing hole cards I'd never touch regularly. Anyhow (god I'm long winded on poker), time to get married, enjoy my honeymoon and hope when I start playing again I stop getting fucking cold decked. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 17, 2004, 02:30:06 AM My random comments:
Quote from: Madman Dealt to TheMadMadman [Th Ts] ch1naboy: folds D.W. Jarrett: raises 20 to 40 WIZARD37: folds BNYLVR said, "ty" BNYLVR: folds TheMadMadman: raises 60 to 100 Sweetness23: calls 90 Defensor: folds D.W. Jarrett: raises 60 to 160 TheMadMadman: calls 60 Sweetness23: calls 60 This was a horrible play by DW! He should have raised way more than 60. I would probably raise by 200-300 or so here. Quote *** FLOP *** [3s Tc 4h] Sweetness23: checks D.W. Jarrett: bets 100 TheMadMadman: raises 400 to 500 Sweetness23: folds D.W. Jarrett: calls 400 This was also a bad play by DW. A bet of 100? Quote *** FLOP *** [As Ks 5d] BNYLVR: checks TheMadMadman: checks Defensor: bets 300 BNYLVR: calls 300 TheMadMadman: calls 300 This is an automatic fold to me. You have second pair with the worst possible kicker, there are few ways your hand can improve, and the higher pair corresponds to the card that everyone plays. So many people will play a wide variety of Aces, when an Ace comes on the flop chances are pretty damn good someone has one. Quote *** TURN *** [As Ks 5d] [Kh] BNYLVR: checks TheMadMadman: checks Defensor: checks I would bet here for sure. A check-raise seems unlikely to work. You both called the original bet, so chances are pretty good one of you has a king. Defensor is unlikely to bet here. I tend to avoid fancy plays unless I know my opponents reasonably well. You hit the best possible card for you, bet. Quote *** RIVER *** [As Ks 5d Kh] [Tc] BNYLVR: checks TheMadMadman: bets 1500 Defensor: folds BNYLVR: calls 1500 You broke my rule of river betting: don't make a bet where the only way they will call is if they have you beat. What hand will call you here? I probably would bet here, but I would make a small value bet. Both players checked the turn. To me that says they may have been on draws....but he did check the river. I would be wary of a trap here. On the turn you got a card that helped you a lot and you didn't bet...on the river you got a card that could hurt you and you bet huge. I might have thought he was on a spade draw, but if so he missed and won't call your river bet. I think it was reasonable to believe you had the best hand, so make a bet you think they will call with a worse hand, not a bet they can only call with a better hand. Quote Code: *********** # 101 ************** I suppose that play was perhaps a bit risky, but it certainly felt like the right thing to do at the time and it paid off. That was the right play. I like that size raise. If everyone folds that's fine. If BNYLVR just calls you can apply pressure again on the flop. It also invites BN to come over the top with a variety of hands that are even at best. BNYVLR is likely to go all-in on mid-size pocket pair and lot of Aces. You are only badly beaten by two hands. Chances are good that if he goes all in you will be about even at worst. If he just calls, I would bet the flop no matter what it came down as. Give him a chance to fold. With that much of his money invested, if you check the flop he might bluff raise all-in anyway, so might as well give him the chance to fold. The most you could lose was 1745, and you had a good chance of winning the pre-flop pot, getting called then winning post-flop on a bluff, or showing down the best hand. The only real risk was that Defensor would reraise, in which case you can throw your hand away. BN...not sure about his play. His raise all-in was essentially a call, because there was no way you would fold anything but a pure bluff to him. You were comitted at that point. I don't want to be calling off all my money with AQ. I might bet it all off, but not call it all off. In this case his bet was essentially a call. It depends on how often others were raising. If they were raising a lot I would have gone all-in. If not so much I would have thrown it away, and maybe gone all-in on a worse hand. I'd rather put my money in first with say A9 than call off my money with AQ. If you truly were playing tight (which BN seemed to think) he probably should have folded. When a tight player raises in front of you and baits you to go all in AQ isn't a great hand. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 17, 2004, 03:16:16 AM I pretty much agree with you comments Margalis. If DW had raised more than 60 pre-flop, chances are I would have folded. It was still pretty early in the game and although I was up a little bit, I wouldn't have risked a good sized bet. It wouldn't have mattered what he threw down after the flop because I was gonna ride the set of 10's. There is nothing he could have done to scare me off right after the flop came down. I did get a little worried when I saw the possible straight, but figured he wouldn't have reraised preflop on A2. I was a little more worried when the J hit the turn. After all that might have been his pocket pair, but I still decided to go for it. I had been betting heavy already, so I felt I should keep betting heavy.
The next hand, I know I screwed it up. The call on the flop was a gut call, I didn't feel that anyone had an A in the hole because by that time 9 out of 10 A's got raised preflop. I completely agree that I should have bet big when I got the set of K's, although I am not sure it would have done any good because I think BN would have probably have called most bets, he just seemed to play that way. As for the river, I admit to not paying attention. I totally missed the fact that there was a possible straight on the board. I basically jumped the gun, if I had looked at the board closer then I most likely would have checked. At that point I was really thinking about my three of a kind and that was it. As for the last hand I posted, I thought I played it pretty well too. At that point we were down to 3 people left and I had the big stack. You are right, my thinking was if I lose it then I am not hurting all that much. If I lose it then I just play tighter until I get something great in the hole. But I felt pretty confident with the AKo, so I decided to call him. When the flop came down, I couldn't help but smile because I knew I had him beat. I was kind of surprised when he reraised me preflop. You are right - at that point, I had to call him because I had a bit invested in the pot. If he had just called preflop, then I certainly would have bet the house with that flop. I would have been sitting on two pair with an A kicker. I think I was playing that game pretty tight. I was folding a lot of hands that I used to play. I am going to look over the hand history a little closer eventually, just to see how tight I played. There were various hands that I was playing aggressively, but overall I think it was pretty tight (especially for me). I seem to remember folding things like Axo on semi-small preflop raises, as well as folding various K/Qxs stuff and middle suited connectors. Like I said it was probably my best played tourney ever. Thanks for the comments. They are always welcome, especially since I think I am getting better and better at playing. I think it is partially because I am playing more and therefore seeing more, but it is also partially due to the various comments here. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on April 17, 2004, 10:17:13 AM yeah with AK on the board and 2 people putting 300 in on it, I think you have to fold K2. Maybe one was on a spade draw, but is hard to imagine a scenario where at least one of them didn't have an ace or a king with a better kicker, leaving you without much in the way of outs unless a 2 hit. Then again, I am a pussy =)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 17, 2004, 08:18:51 PM Btw, I hate you bastards. All of you A) got me started playing online poker and B) made me get and register Poker Tracker.
I got it a little while ago and I am still getting used to it, but I can certainly see how it can help me play better. I originally bought into Poker Stars for $100, I won around $250 fairly quickly on normal tables and then ended up losing around $200 or so on those tables. I ended up taking a break for a while and when I came back I have been exclusively playing in SnG tourneys. I know I can win money faster on normal tables, but I can also lose money faster there too. I think the SnG's are better for honing skills since you can see a lot more hands for a lot less money. I am have lost a total of $37 since I started playing the tourneys, but I feel that I am a better player overall. I mostly play in in the 5+.50 or 10+1 SnG's, although I have played in a few 15+1 tourneys. I am thinking about starting a new database once I either lose my original buy in or double it (and get my original buy-in out) because I realize now that my play when I first started was fairly erratic. I think that after I either lose or double my buy-in, I will consider myself a respectable player and I would like to get pure stats starting from that period. I am sure I will still make mistakes even then, but you can't completely avoid mistakes. I would still keep the old database and import all hands into that as well as the new one, just to see how much my erratic play at first affects my stats. Of course I am pretty lazy so I probably won't do that at all. I like looking over the stats and noticing which hands have played well for me and which hands I lose on. It is pretty interesting to see things like I have had 96o a total of 22 times, but of the 6 times I have had it on the big blind I have won 4 times. Once I folded to a preflop raise and once I folded after checking all the way to the river. Or the fact that KK is the hand I have won the most money on, followed by AKo, QQ and then that 96o. AA doesn't do much for me because I have only been called on it once of the 7 times I have had it. The one time it got called, I was short stacked and could only raise 45 chips on my big blind and I ended up losing that hand to a flush. These kind of stats are very interesting. On another note, today I was dealt KK three straight times. The first time I won pretty big after someone went all in on a pretty ragged flop and the turn produced a the lowest pair on the board. I almost didn't call him, but figured I still had him beat. The second time nobody called my preflop raise. The last time I ended up losing to someone who slowplayed AA, I should have been worried when he checked and then called my 300 chip bet after the flop, and again when he checked and then called my 300 on the turn. I did stay smart enough to check the river though, so although I lost more than I should have it could have been a lot worse. Alright, I am gonna stop babbling now. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 18, 2004, 11:44:25 AM Hmmm...I seem to have lost some data in the Poker Tracker. I had 7 AA hands yesterday and today I only have 5. I am missing the two hands I ended up losing. It is the one I lost to the flush. I think I am missing another hand too.
I have saved all my hand histories and tournament histories and tried to import them all again, but it didn't import anything since it said everything was there. Has anyone else had this problem? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 19, 2004, 06:32:00 AM First make sure you're looking at the first tab otherwise you'll only be looking at session stats. Second, make sure you don't have any filters turned on. Third, make sure it is defaulted to your username. Fourth, if you play on multiple systems (Party, Stars, UB, etc...) make sure your aliases are still setup.
And finally, it is an open SQL database so if you have a way to do so you could try manually querying the DB to see if your hands are still in there. Other than that nothing is coming to me right now that would explain hands dissappearing. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 19, 2004, 06:51:33 AM Quote from: UD_Delt First make sure you're looking at the first tab otherwise you'll only be looking at session stats. Second, make sure you don't have any filters turned on. Third, make sure it is defaulted to your username. Fourth, if you play on multiple systems (Party, Stars, UB, etc...) make sure your aliases are still setup. And finally, it is an open SQL database so if you have a way to do so you could try manually querying the DB to see if your hands are still in there. Other than that nothing is coming to me right now that would explain hands dissappearing. First, I am looking at the first tab with the 'show all hands regardless of blinds' applied. Second, I don't have any filters on. Third, it is defaulted to my name. And fourth I don't play anywhere but Poker Stars. I don't think I have a way to pull it up through a SQL database, I don't even have Microsoft Office set up on this computer. Maybe I will create a new database and import all my histories into that to see what happens and compare the two. I am not all that upset about it, it just kind caught me by surprise. I am now wondering if there are other hands that disappeared. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 19, 2004, 09:54:53 AM Quote Btw, I hate you bastards. All of you A) got me started playing online poker and B) made me get and register Poker Tracker. I am still learning how to really use Pokertracker to its utmost, but it has already paid off...I have histories with A LOT of the folks I play with now, and have started noticing a pattern in how some of them play. The combo of online poker and Pokertracker might just bump you into a higher tax bracket, so I can see why you are pissed =) Edit- I just had a thought- most (or all) of us have accounts at Stars. Anyone interested in getting together for a cheap SnG some time? We could set up a time, and then all jump into the first EMPTY NLHE SnG (probably just a one table, to make sure there are as few outsiders as possible). We do it at 2+2, and it seems to work pretty well (although you have to be right on top of things or the table will fill up). I am available weekday nights other than Monday from 6 PM PDT to about 11 PDT. Post times you are available, and we'll see if we can get some sort of event set up. Think of the shittalking possibilities! Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 19, 2004, 11:10:37 AM Haha, you know I was thinking a couple of days ago that I am not sure if I would want to play with everyone here or not. I mean after all I have shared quite a few hand histories and my thought processes about certain hands. So maybe you all have an unfair insight into me. But then again it would be fun to play for bragging rights.
I work midnight shifts, but I am pretty much available between like 6PM-10PM CDT (4pm-8pm PDT), although I can usually make that longer on Friday and Saturday night since I don't work those nights. I would also need at least a day notice, maybe two, so that I could adjust my sleep schedule a little bit. As for Poker Tracker, I only have about 2,200 hands in there from tourneys. And only about 300 or so from ring games (I haven't played them since I switched over to SnG's). I can see how it can be very useful, although I have only played about 5 or 6 people more than once. For now it is good to see that I have tightened up my game a bit (my VIP total is around 35% now I believe), and am I learning which hands are the best ones, and which ones pay out the best for me. Soon I will deal with other players histories and stuff, but for now I am still exploring it a bit. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 19, 2004, 11:41:18 AM I'm down for hopping into a cheap ($5.50 or $11) Sit&Go with you all. I can be available any weeknight after about 6:00 EST and up till around midnight.
I can make times other than that with a day or two notice. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 19, 2004, 11:42:49 AM A Stars SnG would be cool, I am usually free late, like 9 PM EST onward.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 19, 2004, 03:39:51 PM I'd play, but don't play on Stars. If you wanted to get a Party one going. I'm up for it.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 20, 2004, 06:50:41 AM I now have accounts on most of the majors and I'm not opposed to opening other accounts on other systems assuming I can bonus whore on those sites. So I can do party or stars for the S&G.
Speaking of bonus whoring that's something else we could work out with each other. Try and refer each other to any sites that offer good bonuses so we can all cash in a little extra money. I'm currently members of the following: Poker Stars Party Poker GamingClub Poker - Prima network Ultimate Bet If anyone has a bonus referral to any other sites feel free to PM me and I'll sign up through you since I currently have no active bonuses to work off. Alternately, if anyone wants to join any of those to PM me and I'll set up an affiliate code. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 22, 2004, 09:22:32 AM So- I was feeling my oats and decided to move up to the $3/$6 tables (when you keep your bankroll as low as I keep mine, this is a big move). My first hand I had AJ, and lost to AK when KJ came on the flop (of course). I drug a small pot, so was only down a few bucks for a while.
Then this hand came up- Quote POKERSTARS GAME #399076703: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2004/04/21 - 23:27:03 (ET) Table 'Nihal' Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: Lever11 ($48 in chips) Seat 3: 1cigarfan ($99 in chips) Seat 5: wayabvpar ($112 in chips) Seat 6: CWayne ($63 in chips) Seat 7: tomnshell ($150 in chips) Seat 8: Anchorman ($139 in chips) Seat 10: doctorevill ($100 in chips) abel will be allowed to play after the button 1cigarfan: posts small blind $1 Fox 002: is sitting out wayabvpar: posts big blind $3 doctorevill: posts big blind $3 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to wayabvpar [Js 8d] CWayne: folds tomnshell: folds Anchorman: calls $3 doctorevill: checks Lever11: folds 1cigarfan: calls $2 wayabvpar: checks *** FLOP *** [8h Jc Jd] 1cigarfan: checks wayabvpar: checks Anchorman: checks doctorevill: checks *** TURN *** [8h Jc Jd] [Td] 1cigarfan: checks wayabvpar: checks Anchorman: checks doctorevill: bets $6 1cigarfan: folds wayabvpar: calls $6 Anchorman: calls $6 *** RIVER *** [8h Jc Jd Td] [7c] wayabvpar: bets $6 Anchorman: raises $6 to $12 doctorevill: calls $12 wayabvpar: raises $6 to $18 Anchorman: raises $6 to $24 Betting is capped doctorevill: calls $12 wayabvpar: calls $6 *** SHOW DOWN *** Anchorman: shows [Tc Jh] (a full house, Jacks full of Tens) doctorevill: mucks hand wayabvpar: mucks hand Anchorman collected $99 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $102 | Rake $3 Board [8h Jc Jd Td 7c] Seat 1: Lever11 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: 1cigarfan (small blind) folded on the Turn Seat 5: wayabvpar (big blind) mucked [Js 8d] - a full house, Jacks full of Eights Seat 6: CWayne folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: tomnshell folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: Anchorman showed [Tc Jh] and won ($99) with a full house, Jacks full of Tens Seat 10: doctorevill mucked [9s 5c] - a straight, Seven to Jack Owwie. Any thoughts on how I played this? I will explain my thought process later. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 22, 2004, 01:04:15 PM I am not sure you can do anything about that hand Way, except get spooked with all the raising and get out. If you had bet on the flop, anchorman would have stayed in anyway. He would probably be guessing you were holding a set of J's too. Possibly a big enough bet would have told everyone you flopped the boat, but then you would have only picked up the blind bets. That is the only thing I can think of.
Here are my two favorite hands of the day, both in the same SnG. Code: *********** # 12 ************** I was kind of shocked when he stuck after the big raise. I really wasn't expecting him to have an 8, but I knew I was pretty set with the Q kicker. I loved it when we both flipped up after the flop and he showed a 6 kicker. I really loved it when the Q came down on the turn. Two hands later I get this: Code: *********** # 14 ************** Man do I love Kings in the hole! I just can't seem to lose with them. According to Poker Tracker, I win 80% of the time with them and I have won more in SnG's with KK than any other hand. Just to prove that I can't lose with KK, here is a hand from later in the day from a different SnG. Code: *********** # 33 ************** I am getting much better at getting into the money, but I still have trouble coming in first. I usually end up going all in on a pretty good hand (usually preflop or right after the flop) and end up getting beat by a slightly better hand. That is kind of frustrating, but I suppose it will get better. Plus I am happy to be in the money in the first place. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 24, 2004, 01:34:08 AM ***** THIS POST IS VERY LONG AND CONTAINS SEVERAL HAND HISTORIES!!! *****
Well, UD_Delt got to see me play tonight. He came in during a showdown at a $15+1 Turbo SnG. I won that tourney, which helped my bankroll alot. Of course it's not too hard to get in the money when you are the chip leader (or second in chips for a few brief hands) from the 3rd hand on. I went up and down and up before I hit a really good run of hands starting at the 22nd hand: Code: *********** # 22 ************** I am not sure why he was going all in on K9s, but I was willing to take it. Two hands later I get this: Code: *********** # 24 ************** I can possibly see dmartinez staying for the flop, I can't figure out why he would raise me after the flop. Again I was happy to take his money. Three hands later and this comes up: Code: *********** # 27 ************** Again I can't quit figure out the thinking behind Card Thief's betting. I wasn't really paying attention to how much he had left, otherwise I would have taken him out. As it was, he ended up with 80 chips left and went out on the next hand. Four hands later and I get another killer hand: Code: *********** # 31 ************** After this hand I am sitting with 9430 in chips and none of the other 3 people at the table have more than 1500. Needless to say I was pretty comfortable from that point on and I just had to play smart. Three hands later I kick another person off the table with this: Code: *********** # 34 ************** Now I am at almost 11k in chips, more than 8k over the second highest player at the table. After that it took about 25 more hands before I could get everyone else out. James went out on the 51st hand and I just under 10k in chips. I went down to a little under 8k on a couple of bad hands, one I made a big preflop raise on AQs, the flop came down 2 clubs and a spade, I bet big on it and j.j raised me 2k and went all in. I decided to fold out right then and there. The next hand I had A4o and j.j had a pair of 2's in the hole, he bet the minimum every round and I stuck with him and nothing came up for me. I probably should have raised at some point, but that might have costs me more money. I made most of those losses back the next couple of hands by betting aggressively with pairs. Then this hand came up: Code: *********** # 57 ************** I got beat there, but I thought it was a pretty good bet. I had the high pair on the board, plus I was trying to bluff him into thinking I had the flush. He made a good call and beat me. For the first time in a long time during that game I was actually behind someone. I ended up getting ahead of him on the very next hand though. It all ended on the 60th hand: Code: *********** # 60 ************** I am kind of surprised he went all in on a pair of 6's after I raised him. Of course I called his all in with just the flush draw, so I am not sure who made the bad move there. Thankfully the river actually came down in my favor this time. I am really learning that the river on Poker Stars is a fickle bitch and she generally doesn't like me. I am just going to start a new post to describe the next tourney. UD_Delt and I played in that one and there are a couple of hands I want to share from it, but this post is already quite long. Here are the stats from this tourney: 60 hands played and saw flop: - 8 times out of 14 while in small blind (57%) - 10 times out of 16 while in big blind (62%) - 10 times out of 30 in other positions (33%) - a total of 28 times out of 60 (46%) Pots won at showdown - 9 out of 12 (75%) Pots won without showdown - 12 I still tend to see alot of flops, although I think I am getting much better. Plus I think those stats are a bit inflated because once I get into a 3 or 4 way, I tend to see the flop a lot more than I do for a full table. Often I will pay for junk in a 3 way as the small blind, especially if I am up in chips. According to Poker Tracker my VIP is 36.58% (1,238 out of 3,384 hands) , my Saw Flop all Hands is 39.21% (1,327 out of 3,384 hands) and my Saw Flop not A Blind is 27.70% (534 out of 1,928 hands). I have gone to the SD 31.73% (421 out of 1,327 hands) and I have Won $ at SD 47.98% (202 out of 421 hands) and I win $ when I see the flop 39.04% (518 out of 1,327 hands). I am pretty passive pre-flop but very aggressive after the flop, my total aggression is 0.73, so I end up just over passive overall. I really like looking at all these Poker Tracker stats, and I think it is helping me play better. Alright that is enough babble for this post, see below for my greatest hand of the night. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 24, 2004, 03:12:04 AM ***** WARNING! ANOTHER LONG POST WITH SEVERAL HAND HISTORIES! *****
Alright now for the tourney that UD_Delt and I played together. I had a lot of trouble at the beginning of the tourney. I couldn't get a good flop when I saw it and if it helped me it ended up helping someone else more. And naturally I ended up folding a couple of hands preflop that would have ended up winning. I ended up down quite early in the tourney, then I got this hand: Code: *********** # 11 ************** I really really wanted him to show his cards or at least tell me what he had. But he never did, but I had him pegged on the straight, although it could have been the flush. I probably should have bet right after the flop although that probably would have cost me more, since I am sure he would have stayed in even if I had gone all-in. UD_Delt said later that he had the other king on that hand, but I didn't know that until well after the hand. UD_Delt got beat on a bad hand a few hands later and took over the low chip position and ended up going out with one other person a few hands after that to someone who flopped a straight. I will leave it up to him to post his hands if he wants. A couple hands after he went out, I was in last position again. LOVINLF went out at the 21st hand and 5 people (including myself) were left. I only had 760 chips when LOVINLF went out and was down by 500 chips from the next person. Thankfully, NITROX101 had a complete lapse of judgement and lost his 1260 chips on the 22nd hand. Now it's down to 4 people, I still have 760 chips and am I down by about 1200 chips from the next person. Then comes the 23rd hand: Code: *********** # 23 ************** That hand certainly helped me out. I moved into the 3rd position with just over 1500 in chips and felt a little more comfortable. Tertracay went out on the 37th hand when his pocket Q's got busted by an A on the river. Meanwhile, I slid down to around 1200, went back up to around 1900, dropped back down to around 1000 and clawed back to about 1300 when this hand came up (which was my favorite hand of the night): Code: *********** # 44 ************** I almost freaked out when I saw that flop. I had almost folded preflop and the only reason I stayed in was because it was a weak raise, I was suited and I was already in for the big blind. I didn't want to go all in right off the bat but when rl reraised me I knew I had him. It is probably a good thing that nobody could see my face, I am not sure I would have been able to hold in the giant shit eating grin when I saw the flop. After that hand I kind of hovered between 2500-3500 chips, I would go down a little then get someone to fold out after putting in some extra money into the pot. 51 hands later I managed to break rl with this: Code: *********** # 95 ************** Now I was only about 1k chips behind R-R, but got busted 3 hands by this hand: Code: *********** # 98 ************** I can only say bravo to R-R for that hand, I never would have suspected him of holding the flush. He had been doing the 200 bets after the flop a lot, so I didn't think anything of it. I probably should have been more careful when he raised me on the turn, but I figured he only had 2 pair. Well that is about it for my adventurous night of poker. I think I played pretty damn good tonight, which thankfully made up for the completely shitty hands I had earlier that afternoon. I am constantly amazed at some of the hands people call in on, especially if there has been a preflop raise. Even at my loosest, before I started concentrating more and playing better, I wouldn't call half the crap I see people play. Of course it is even more amazing that a lot of times that crap they play ends up paying off that time. I guess that is a good thing since it makes them play that crap more often and eventually it will catch up with them. I mean who in the hell plays something like 84o after a 150-300 preflop raise? I can possibly see limping in on that, but I wouldn't do it very often and I certainly wouldn't call a preflop raise, even if it was only 20 chips. Hell I fold stuff like K3o and 78o, even when there isn't a preflop raise, but maybe I am just playing too passively preflop. So UD_Delt, how do you think I did? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 24, 2004, 10:10:44 AM ***** WARNING! YET ANOTHER LONG POST WITH HAND HISTORIES! ******
Muhahahaha! I decided to play a $2+0 (rebuys and one add-on) WSOP satellite for a shot at a seat at the $30+3 (rebuys and one add-on) WSOP qualifier. After registration the top 51 people out of 267 entries got to go to the $33 table. I bought in for the 2 bucks and then immediately got a rebuy. I swear I got almost nothing but junk in the hole for pretty much the whole tournament, maybe I was playing too tight preflop. On the 19th hand, about 10 minutes before the break I got this hand: Code: *********** # 19 ************** I figured I had to take the chance there. I was mostly playing for fun, so if I had gone out that hand I wouldn't have bothered to rebuy and just moved on. Thankfully that gamble paid off and I was set for a while. I ended up buying the add-on of 1500 more chips at the first break and was sitting on just under 7k in chips after the break. I lost 1k when I made a big preflop raise that didn't pan out for me. I made that back when I ended up with a higher kicker a few hands later and then another 1k or so when I landed a flop on the turn and nobody went after it. There were a few hands I probably should have played, including an A7d that I folded after someone raised about 3k preflop. I thought it was over when I got sucked out on this hand: Code: *********** # 47 ************** I was left with about 2500 in chips after that hand and we were on $50 antes and 400/800 blinds. I had to make a call soon, I passed up a couple of suited hands that people made raises on preflop before it got to me. Finally I ended up as the big blind and decided to just go for it on this hand: Code: *********** # 54 ************** I couldn't believe I won that hand, it gave me about 6600 in chips. I normally wouldn't have bet that hand, but since I was already in for 1200 big blind and the small blind would be hitting me next, I decided to go all in. Two hands later and this came up, I did NOT mean to fold on it, but I hit accidently tapped my mouse as it was over the fold box and it checked it: Code: *********** # 56 ************** I really was going to play that hand, although I had been folding similiar hands before. I had decided to just play the first semi-decent hand I got and hope for the best. I really wish I hadn't accidently checked the fold box because I would have made a killing. I got another semi-decent hand 5 hands later: Code: *********** # 61 ************** I was all excited when I saw the flop, after all I had gotten a pair. Then Vahrus bet big after the flop and when Tzitzifies folded, I figured it was over since Vahrus was showing a pair of Jacks. I couldn't believe it when the other 7 came down on the turn. After that hand there was probably about 20 or so open spots before we got into the qualifier. So all I had to do was just cruise from there and I would be set. I lost a little because of the 6k blinds, but then I managed to win about 15k when someone with 1k left didn't want to go out because there was only about 2 or 3 spots left to go. I ended the tournament with a little under 25k in chips and a seat at the $33 dollar table. I am currently thinking about whether I should do a rebuy and an add on during the $33 tourney. I do have the money from my winnings while playing SnG's, I think I would still be a little over my original $100 deposit if I did one rebuy and one add on, so I probably will do it just for fun. And if I play well, hell I might go to the WSOP! (keep dreaming buddy!) You can tell I was getting crap in the hole and that I was playing really tight by looking at the stats for the tournament: 75 hands played and saw flop: - 4 times out of 10 while in small blind (40%) - 4 times out of 9 while in big blind (44%) - 8 times out of 56 in other positions (14%) - a total of 16 times out of 75 (21%) Pots won at showdown - 6 out of 8 (75%) Pots won without showdown - 2 I really couldn't believe I how much crap I was getting. A lot of it was stuff I would normally limp in with, but people kept raising like mad preflop so I would end up folding it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 24, 2004, 12:47:00 PM Bah! I went out quickly. I really hate people who win playing bad poker, well I suppose one of them was a good call, but I honestly don't know what some of these fuckers are playing on.
I don't know what the fuck I have to do to tell these assholes I have a pocket pair. Check out the two hands that busted me: Code: *********** # 8 ************** Thats the first one, I can't fucking believe he went all in on a pair of 6's, and I really can't fucking believe that another 6 came down on the turn. Normally pocket kings are gold for me. That hand caused me to rebuy, which I had planned on doing anyway. Then a few hands later, I get this: Code: *********** # 29 ************** Now I suppose that was a good bet by barnsey, but could the flop come down any worse for me. It's almost amazing, whenever I bet hard people stay in, even with crap and end up beating me. However, whenever someone else bets hard they fold like a cheap fucking suit. I went out of the tourney at 244 out of 281, but I should have been sitting on a comfortable amount of chips. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 24, 2004, 08:29:29 PM Nice hands there. I'll comment in general on a couple of them.
A bit ago I was watching the 2003 WSOP when they decided to feature the table with Moneymaker and Chan at it. They made the comment "never go all in on a draw" or maybe it was "never call all-in on a draw". Sound advice either way. Chan didn't think so and went all in on the last hand of the day on a flush draw and got booted. Unless you really have a metric shitton of outs, it's just bad odds and bad poker IMO. Gus Hansen would disagree I'm sure, but I think he plays bad poker. On the last hand, I really don't understand betting that agressively with a low pair. You're just beat by so much. It just seems like you're putting a down payment on flopping a set. I mean really, you're a slight statistical favorite, but that's about it. I've seen this work for some people and other people just end up with egg on their face. It's funny when someone goes banzai with their pocket 7's and the person calling them was holding a pair of kings. Anyhow, you look like a solid player and one that'd probably beat me pretty badly heads up. You just seem to make some iffy calls on draws and put too much stock in low pairs. I can't wait till mid May when I can finally start playing again. Getting married plus finishing out my degree is really giving me no time to play. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 25, 2004, 12:00:09 AM I'll agree with you on the last hand, that was me trying to be aggressive. I was trying to double up with a pocket pair, if there had been less people on the table I probably wouldn't have gone for it. But you don't know how many times I have seen lower pocket pairs survive something like AK,AQ,KQ, etc. Sometimes I think the cards are out to get me because it will let players I consider bad to win those low pocket pairs, but generally when I try it the cards shoot me down hard.
I'd think I agree with you that I am a solid player, so thanks. I will also agree with you that I still tend to make some iffy calls and I do like low pocket pairs a little too much. I just have to remember to think before I make bets and play smart, when I do that then I usually end up doing a good job. When I try to be too agreessive I end up getting burned most of the time. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 25, 2004, 02:52:43 AM Good grief yesterday was a rollercoaster.
I started out the day really well, placing first in 2 $5+$1 Sit N Gos. Then played excellent at my 2 $.50/$1 tables to bring myself up to $400 total bankroll(I started out with $300). I decided to take a break and watch some TV for a bit. I went out with some friends and came back just in time to enter a $20 + $2 multi table tourney. I got destroyed, then attempted to make up for the lost entry fee by playing $.50/$1 upon which I ended at $342 total bankroll. I was mighty pissed, I had top pair Ace kicker hands beaten by 52o twice in 5 minutes. I was on tilt like you wouldn't believe. I decided to watch a movie and come back to it, played in one $5 + $1 Sit N Go which I by all rights should have won, but, finished third in. That put me at $352 total. Then it was bedtime. I had some amazing swings yesterday. I hope like hell that I can control my emotions while I am at the tables in Vegas this summer. There were a few times when I would have been thrown out of any casino for the shit I was screaming at my monitor. Pocket 8s are my new favorite hand, on my 2nd Sit N Go yesterday, in the first hand, I got pocket 8s, and I raised preflop, the flop came 10 10 8. There is nothing quite like flopping a boat. I bet out about 200 chips, and some guy raises it to 500 so I pushed all in and I get him and one more to call! My boat ended up being good against K 10o and 45d??? Tripled up on the first hand, not too shabby. I am trying like hell to do this the right way, which is work my way up from $.50/$1 to $1/$2 by winning the extra $300 I need to have a 300x BB bankroll. My goal is to have a sufficent $3/$6 bankroll by the time I go to Vegas in July. Wish me luck. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 25, 2004, 11:25:50 AM I'd rather block that tourney we played together out of my head...
I only played 3 hands before going out. The first hand I missed the flop. Second hand I played Q10s, flop came down Q4x rainbow. Turn was another 4, river was a 10. I mistakenly figured no one for a 4 and that my two pair would be good. Got shown Q4 for the full house. After that I was left with only about 350 in chips and said screw it and went all-in with K10s. I got 4 callers and figured I was screwed. Flop came 6-9-K or something similar and there was some hope. Turned a 10 and had more hope but sure enough someone was playing a 7-8. So, two hands that I bet hard and lost on two pair both times... I then played a $11 S&G and made another mistake playing AQs early on. I flopped a Q, raised an EP better, he reraised me all-in and like a fool I called. He of course had KK. I should have stopped earlier that night. I had a nice little $50 profit after about 3 hours of play. Of course I played another 3 hours after that and gave it all back. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 26, 2004, 11:19:19 AM Haha! There is now a way to rank your bad beats. I found it one of SA's poker threads.
http://www.pokersavvy.com/article/badbeat.html# According to that calculator, that KK pocket pair that got busted by a set of sixes was soulcrushing with a score of 8293. That is a pretty damn bad beat. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 26, 2004, 11:54:15 AM I am running BAD right now. I don't think I am playing too badly; it is just bad beat after bad beat combined with NONE of my draws coming through. Had the following hand yesterday morning as I was waiting for the CoH servers to come up-
I am in the BB with AA (FINALLY), with $1490 after posting the $50 blind. UTG limps, all fold to cutoff, who makes it 300 to go. Button calls $300, small blind folds. With $700 in the pot already, I want to win it right now, so I shove the rest of my stack in. Cutoff calls, and so does the button. I am PRAYING they both have pocket pairs, since I am a big favorite over any PP. Cutoff turns over QQ, and the button? 55. He called two HUGE raises with 55. To reward his mindbogglingly bad play, a 5 came on the flop and knocked me down to like $200. There truly is no justice. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 26, 2004, 12:07:08 PM Quote from: Madman *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to TheMadMadman [Kd Kh] Dirt McGirt: folds Grasshopper1: calls 20 bobblehead: folds wez99: folds ury_ace: folds Belhodgio: folds barnsey: folds Pirum: raises 120 to 140 TheMadMadman: raises 220 to 360 Grasshopper1: folds Pirum: calls 220 *** FLOP *** [6c Qd 2d] Pirum: checks TheMadMadman: bets 200 Pirum: raises 2420 to 2620 and is all-in TheMadMadman: calls 2420 My rule again: (I didn't invent it, but whatever) If you are willing to call all-in, you should have gone all-in. (Unless you were trapping with the nuts or close to it) I would not have made this call unless I knew my opponent was a total idiot. He could easily have a set or 2 pair. Calling off all your money with an overpair...I wouldn't do it. If you were willing to call all-in you should have bet all-in instead. But...in the end you got unlucky. Against idiots you have to protect your chips. EV isn't as important in tourneys. If you get unlucky once you could be out, but in a cash game you can always grab more chips. I try to avoid all-in situations unless I am the one doing the betting, and I am pretty damn sure I have the best hand or am desperate. Quote *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to TheMadMadman [9c 9d] wez99: folds ury_ace: folds Belhodgio: folds barnsey: raises 180 to 210 Pirum: folds TheMadMadman: raises 240 to 450 Dirt McGirt: folds Grasshopper1: folds bobblehead: folds barnsey: raises 1045 to 1495 and is all-in TheMadMadman: calls 940 and is all-in Again, I don't like the call. You are probably a coin-flip at best. (As it turns out, you were) BETTING on a coin flip is a lot different than calling one. If you bet a flip and they fold, great. If not you are still 50/50. If you call it, you are just 50/50. I would have folded or raised all in. That way you can also isolate. With 99 you don't want multiple callers. In 3 way action you will probably have to flop a 9 to win. Again, if you are willing to call all-in just bet all in. Make *him* call on the coin flip. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 26, 2004, 01:21:47 PM Meh, I think the KK call was a good bet. After all he went all in on a pair of 6's. With his preflop raise I had him at a mid pair, Ax or garbage like QJ, when he called all in, I was waiting to see the Q pair. I realize he could have had 2 pair, but I didn't think he had it since who the hell raises with Q6? When I saw the pair of 6's I was even happier, that is until the turn when his 3rd 6 came down.
As for the second hand, I was short stacked and had been getting horrible cards, so I decided to go for it. I figured he had Ax and was willing to take the chance on his all in bet. It was a move that could very well have paid off if the flop had come down with rags. That hand I wasn't really upset about except for the fact that it seems like every time I don't want to see cards on the flop those are the exact fucking cards that come up. I have been totally cold decked the few tourneys and I keep getting the second best hand. And of course when I have the best hand preflop, someone chases their card to the river and manages to pull it off. I went through a run of about 70 hands without getting an ace the hole and only one pocket pair which were 8's that I was forced to fold after the flop. And of course whenever I called in a garbage hand, someone else had a slightly better garbage hand. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 26, 2004, 03:22:36 PM I think I just broke my cold deck spell. I decided to play one more tourney after I wrote that last post, and for kicks I made it a $10+1 SnG. I ended up coming in first, which I really needed after losing the past four or five $5+.50 SnG's. I am back up to around 50 bucks over my original deposit. Which isn't too bad considering I just keep playing the $5+.50 SnG's for experience.
This $10+1 SnG, I barely ever missed a flop and I played smart and folded early when I hit it with the second best hand. I avoided chasing draws unless it was checked or the occasional smaller bet. There were a few hands I could have played better of course, but overall I think it was one of my better tourneys. Of course it is a whole lot easier when you catch your flop. It is also easier when the river doesn't screw you 7 out of 10 times (at least thats what it seemed like when I was cold). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 26, 2004, 04:37:13 PM Got AA cracked in a Sit N Go by a set of 9s that came on the river yesterday. I was insanely pissed off, as there were 2 callers and I would have tripled up. As someone else said, there is no justice.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 27, 2004, 08:12:54 AM Fuck have I become a fish. I have read quite a bit now and have a fair understanding of the game but lately it seems like as soon as I sit down it all flies out of my head and I play like a fucking idiot. I either need to quit or figure out how to apply what I know to my game a lot better....
Examples: Hand #1 $1/$2 - I'm dealt AA on the button. It's capped before ever getting to me w. 6 people in ($24 pot). Flop comes Q-10-6 rainbow. Check, Check, Bet, Raise, Re-Raise, I cap, Fold, Fold, First Bettor Folds, Call, Call. ($37 pot) Turn Q At this point I should accept that I'm now beaten and get out. Instead I think I'll give it a shot and rep the Q (I know wtf am I thinking). So I bet. Raise, Re-Raise. $4 more back to me. Now I can fold right? Nope, like an idiot now I have to call in case I can hit my 2 outer but of course given all the preflop raising the chances of any A left in the deck is slim to none. Other player calls. River is a blank. First player bets and we both call, with over $60 in the pot why not throw away another $2. First player has pocket 10's for the boat, other player has AQ for the trip Q's and I of course am in last place with my fucking A's. Fuck am I an idiot. Hand #2 I'm dealt QQ in late position. It folds around to me and I raise. SB and BB both call. Flop comes all unders w/ two diamonds. It checks around to me and I bet. SB calls, BB raises. Hmm... I should recognize the free card/forcing the odds play here since I use it myself but of course I'm a fucking idiot. I just call. Turn is a blank. Check, Check, and I Check. What in the fuck am I doing giving away a free card. Fuck, Fuck, Fuck... Maybe I should just let my cat play with the mouse, she'd probably play better than I can. River is an offsuit A. SB checks, BB bets, I call, SB calls. BB has Ax of diamonds and wins. Damn do I suck at playing poker. It seems like the more I read the worse I do. When I first started the only knowledge I had was a rank of starting cards I found online. Somehow with that knowledge I ran my bankroll up to $1200 in profit. Since, then I've read extensively online, gotten poker tracker, and read Lee Jones & Gary Carson's books and I've lost $300. I apologize for the long self-loathing rant but I just needed to vent... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Murgos on April 27, 2004, 09:01:35 AM My best advice for you afer those two hand histories?
It costs nothing to fold. You can do it at anytime and it's free. Money already in the pot is not yours, you gave it up when you put it in there, don't chase it. AA is great but your still only going to win with it slightly more than 1/3rd of the time. The skill comes from knowing when it's not that time and saving as much of whats left of your cash as you can. Also, either raise or fold (and again, folding is free), if it's good enough to call with it's probably good enough to bet with. If you wouldn't bet with it you probably shouldn't still be in the pot. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 27, 2004, 11:40:52 AM I've been playing like complete ass since I took about a 2 week break to deal with school issues and get married. I've been making some very dumb calls and sometimes just spacing out (this might be due to me mostly playing late at night). For instance I hit a straight on a river and merely just checked not seeing I had the straight. The hand was pretty much a check fest as we both had crap, but still, I might have gotten a little more off that hand.
As bad as I've been playing, I'm still in my out of money, in money pattern. One I've yet to break in my last 20 or so sit n gos. It's just fucking wierd, first tourney is always out of money and second is always in no matter how bad I play it seems. I know I can play better than I have, I'm getting better at springing traps but I'm still shit at sniffing them out. People slow playing the nuts has just been murder on me lately. Anyhow, first tourney last night I was playing short stacked through most of it and went out on a dumb call. Second tournament I wanted to play with a chip lead and I got my chance on a really really funny hand (first hand of the tournment). Play close attention to the smack talk. Quote *********** # 95 ************** PokerStars Game #407548171: Tournament #1494895, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2004/04/27 - 02:31:45 (ET) Table '1494895 1' Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: locstabrandt (1500 in chips) Seat 2: whatupdoyle (1500 in chips) Seat 3: thomase12 (1500 in chips) Seat 4: map1 (1500 in chips) Seat 5: ninfzkillah (1500 in chips) Seat 6: tumbleweed (1500 in chips) Seat 7: stillfloats (1500 in chips) Seat 8: WITCH2 (1500 in chips) Seat 9: looterman (1500 in chips) whatupdoyle: posts small blind 10 thomase12: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [Kc Ks] map1: folds ninfzkillah: folds tumbleweed: calls 20 stillfloats: raises 40 to 60 WITCH2: folds looterman: calls 60 stillfloats said, "hi" locstabrandt: folds whatupdoyle: folds stillfloats said, "i'm here to take your money" thomase12: raises 140 to 200 tumbleweed: folds stillfloats said, "think of me like the whammy" stillfloats: raises 220 to 420 WITCH2 said, "be my guest... ;o)" looterman: folds thomase12: raises 1080 to 1500 and is all-in stillfloats: calls 1080 and is all-in *** FLOP *** [5c 3h 7h] stillfloats said, "chit" *** TURN *** [5c 3h 7h] [4d] *** RIVER *** [5c 3h 7h 4d] [Jd] looterman said, "whammy huh?" ninfzkillah said, "LOL" *** SHOW DOWN *** thomase12: shows [Kc Ks] (a pair of Kings) stillfloats: shows [Qc Qd] (a pair of Queens) thomase12 collected 3090 from pot ninfzkillah said, "peaace whammy" thomase12 said, "no whammies" *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3090 | Rake 0 Board [5c 3h 7h 4d Jd] Seat 1: locstabrandt (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: whatupdoyle (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 3: thomase12 (big blind) showed [Kc Ks] and won (3090) with a pair of Kings Seat 4: map1 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: ninfzkillah folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: tumbleweed folded before Flop Seat 7: stillfloats showed [Qc Qd] and lost with a pair of Queens Seat 8: WITCH2 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: looterman folded before Flop stillfloats [observer] said, "that wasn't quite how i pictured it" In the back of my mind, I just wanted to goad someone into all in to practice playing ahead. With the way the guy was talking I knew if he had AA he would have bet a little stronger or immediately went all in the second I raised. I played pretty decent throughout but played this next hand very badly, probably because sometimes I space out and forget how flushes are rated. Quote PokerStars Game #407601283: Tournament #1494895, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2004/04/27 - 03:23:48 (ET) Table '1494895 1' Seat #2 is the button Seat 2: whatupdoyle (2930 in chips) Seat 3: thomase12 (6220 in chips) Seat 8: WITCH2 (4350 in chips) thomase12: posts small blind 100 WITCH2: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [8c 6c] whatupdoyle: folds thomase12: calls 100 WITCH2: checks *** FLOP *** [Js Tc Ts] thomase12: checks WITCH2: checks *** TURN *** [Js Tc Ts] [5c] thomase12: checks WITCH2: checks *** RIVER *** [Js Tc Ts 5c] [Ac] thomase12: bets 200 WITCH2: raises 400 to 600 thomase12: raises 4400 to 5000 WITCH2: calls 3550 and is all-in *** SHOW DOWN *** thomase12: shows [8c 6c] (a flush, Ace high) WITCH2: shows [9c 2c] (a flush, Ace high - Nine higher) WITCH2 collected 8700 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 8700 | Rake 0 Board [Js Tc Ts 5c Ac] Seat 2: whatupdoyle (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: thomase12 (small blind) showed [8c 6c] and lost with a flush, Ace high Seat 8: WITCH2 (big blind) showed [9c 2c] and won (8700) with a flush, Ace high All I saw was Ace high flush. I didn't really think that his 9 would be a difference splitter. Bad play I think on both our parts and I guess ignorance on mine (anyone mind lowering themselves and explaining the flush rankings to me here). That last hand pretty much killed me for that tournament, althought honestly I think I should have and could have won. Both witch and doyle went all in a lot of times and got some lucky draws. I think at one point witch went all in 3 times in a row vs. doyle and won each time. A last parting observation, sometimes I really hate playing late at night. You're almost assured you get one person that wants to go to sleep and decides to go all in on crap and dump their chips on someone. This really fucks up a tournment and screwed things up royally for me 2 nights ago when the recipient of the chip gift was pretty good and it was hard to make up the ground. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 27, 2004, 12:25:54 PM Quote anyone mind lowering themselves and explaining the flush rankings to me here Goes by the single highest card to the flush in your hand vs. the single highest card to the flush in your opponents hand. Examples: --------------------------------------------- P1: Ac2c P2: Kc3c Board: QcJc8cxx P1 wins with the A high flush. --------------------------------------------- P1: 8c9c P2: 6c7c Board: AcKc2cxx P1 wins again with AcKc9c8c2c P2 has AcKc7c6c2c It goes to the highest of the first non-shared cards. --------------------------------------------- P1: 10c9h P2: Jc10h Board: AcKcQc3cX P2 wins with AcKcQcJc3c P1 has AcKcQc10c3c --------------------------------------------- P1: x2c P2: x3c Board: AcKc10c8c4c Split because the board plays as neither has a club higher than the 4c so all cards are shared. --------------------------------------------- Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on April 27, 2004, 05:52:29 PM I'm thinking it's about time I went out and picked up a new/different poker book. I've currently got Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'Em and also Ken Warren Teaches Texas Hold'Em, so I need suggestions on my next book. Should it be The Theory of Poker or....
What books have helped you guys the most? Also, I seem to continually read that Party Poker has "easier" games than say, PokerStars...but I happen to be a big fan of the PokerStars client, and so choose to play there. Is this Party Poker thing Fact or Myth? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 27, 2004, 09:28:54 PM Well I had yet another horrible night. I again posted a pretty big loss but I think I played much better. Please take a look and critique these hands and see if I there is somewhere I can improve.
Quote ***** Hand History for Game 557946883 ***** 1/2 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (LIMIT) - TUE APR 27 21:39:44 EDT 2004 Table Table 10721 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 1: UD_Delt ( $63.75) Seat 2: Orsino ( $100) Seat 3: miles123 ( $73) Seat 4: khaithedog ( $34.50) Seat 5: johnnyO819 ( $97.75) Seat 6: Foreseen80 ( $13.50) khaithedog posts small blind (0.50) johnnyO819 posts big blind (1) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to UD_Delt [ Td, Tc ] Foreseen80 calls (1) UD_Delt calls (1) Orsino folds. miles123 folds. khaithedog folds. johnnyO819 raises (1) to 2 Foreseen80 calls (1) UD_Delt calls (1) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ad, Ts, 8d ] johnnyO819 checks. Foreseen80 checks. UD_Delt bets (1) johnnyO819 calls (1) Foreseen80 folds. ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qh ] johnnyO819 checks. UD_Delt bets (2) johnnyO819 raises (4) to 4 UD_Delt raises (4) to 6 johnnyO819 calls (2) ** Dealing River ** : [ 8h ] johnnyO819 checks. UD_Delt bets (2) johnnyO819 raises (4) to 4 UD_Delt raises (4) to 6 johnnyO819 raises (4) to 8 UD_Delt calls (2) ** Summary ** Main Pot: $35.50 | Rake: $1 Board: [ Ad Ts 8d Qh 8h ] UD_Delt balance $46.75, lost $17 [ Td Tc ] [ a full house, Tens full of eights -- Td,Tc,Ts,8d,8h ] Orsino balance $100, didn't bet (folded) miles123 balance $73, didn't bet (folded) khaithedog balance $34, lost $0.50 (folded) johnnyO819 balance $116.25, bet $17, collected $35.50, net +$18.50 [ As Ah ] [ a full house, Aces full of eights -- As,Ah,Ad,8d,8h ] Foreseen80 balance $11.50, lost $2 (folded) Is there any way to not lose your ass when you have a hidden fullhouse? Quote ***** Hand History for Game 558108564 ***** 1/2 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (LIMIT) - TUE APR 27 22:34:01 EDT 2004 Table Table 11306 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 1: coaskis ( $157.50) Seat 2: UD_Delt ( $49.38) Seat 3: kodjac ( $7.50) Seat 4: playerjim ( $10.87) Seat 5: diana51 ( $24.75) Seat 6: crp112 ( $29.75) UD_Delt posts small blind (0.50) kodjac posts big blind (1) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to UD_Delt [ 5h, 5c ] playerjim calls (1) diana51 calls (1) crp112 folds. coaskis folds. UD_Delt calls (0.50) kodjac raises (1) to 2 playerjim calls (1) diana51 calls (1) UD_Delt calls (1) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2h, 5d, 7d ] UD_Delt bets (1) kodjac raises (2) to 2 playerjim calls (2) diana51 folds. UD_Delt raises (2) to 3 kodjac calls (1) playerjim calls (1) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 8s ] UD_Delt bets (2) kodjac calls (2) playerjim calls (2) ** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ] UD_Delt bets (2) kodjac calls (0.50) kodjac is all-In. playerjim raises (3.87) to 3.87 playerjim is all-In. UD_Delt calls (1.87) Creating Main Pot with $23.50 with kodjac Creating Side Pot 1 with $6.74 with playerjim ** Summary ** Main Pot: $23.50 | Side Pot 1: $6.74 | | Rake: $1 Board: [ 2h 5d 7d 8s 3d ] coaskis balance $157.50, didn't bet (folded) UD_Delt balance $38.51, lost $10.87 [ 5h 5c ] [ three of a kind, fives -- 8s,7d,5h,5c,5d ] kodjac balance $0, lost $7.50 [ As Td ] [ high card ace -- As,Td,8s,7d,5d ] playerjim balance $30.24, bet $10.87, collected $30.24, net +$19.37 [ 8d Kd ] [ a flush, king high -- Kd,8d,7d,5d,3d ] diana51 balance $22.75, lost $2 (folded) crp112 balance $29.75, didn't bet (folded) Again not sure how you can avoid losing on a set when a flush gets filled... It really sucks that it was PlayerJim that pulled it out too. I was thinking the whole time I was going to finally get a piece of him. Check out this hand for amusements sake, I lost a bit but I think I made the right move... Quote ***** Hand History for Game 558178038 ***** 1/2 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (LIMIT) - TUE APR 27 22:56:44 EDT 2004 Table Table 11306 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 1: coaskis ( $153.75) Seat 2: UD_Delt ( $71.76) Seat 3: Woofdog ( $50) Seat 4: playerjim ( $30.36) Seat 5: diana51 ( $16.75) Seat 6: crp112 ( $43) UD_Delt posts small blind (0.50) Woofdog posts big blind (1) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to UD_Delt [ Th, 7h ] playerjim calls (1) diana51 calls (1) crp112 calls (1) coaskis folds. UD_Delt calls (0.50) Woofdog raises (1) to 2 playerjim calls (1) diana51 calls (1) crp112 calls (1) UD_Delt calls (1) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Tc, Qs, 7c ] UD_Delt bets (1) Woofdog raises (2) to 2 playerjim calls (2) diana51 calls (2) crp112 calls (2) UD_Delt raises (2) to 3 Woofdog raises (2) to 4 playerjim calls (2) diana51 calls (2) crp112 calls (2) UD_Delt calls (1) ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9s ] UD_Delt checks. Woofdog bets (2) playerjim calls (2) diana51 calls (2) crp112 raises (4) to 4 UD_Delt folds. Woofdog calls (2) playerjim calls (2) diana51 calls (2) ** Dealing River ** : [ 5c ] Woofdog bets (2) playerjim calls (2) diana51 folds. crp112 calls (2) ** Summary ** Main Pot: $51 | Rake: $1 Board: [ Tc Qs 7c 9s 5c ] coaskis balance $153.75, didn't bet (folded) UD_Delt balance $65.76, lost $6 (folded) Woofdog balance $89, bet $12, collected $51, net +$39 [ 3c Qc ] [ a flush, queen high -- Qc,Tc,7c,5c,3c ] playerjim balance $18.36, lost $12 [ 9d 6d ] [ a pair of nines -- Qs,Tc,9d,9s,7c ] diana51 balance $6.75, lost $10 (folded) crp112 balance $31, lost $12 [ Jc Ks ] [ a straight, nine to king -- Ks,Qs,Jc,Tc,9s ] My other big loss came from a different maniac. This guy had $80 when I say down and left once he got down to the felt. Of course he took my money and redistributed it to the rest of the table. I need to constantly repeat to myself, "even a maniac can catch cards" when I'm up against these guys. Quote ***** Hand History for Game 557776893 ***** 1/2 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (LIMIT) - TUE APR 27 20:38:13 EDT 2004 Table Table 11324 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 1: Foreseen80 ( $25.75) Seat 2: LuckyRuss ( $67.75) Seat 3: kickrkevin ( $112) Seat 4: zubiac ( $40) Seat 5: Fooksie ( $109) Seat 6: UD_Delt ( $29.50) Fooksie posts small blind (0.50) UD_Delt posts big blind (1) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to UD_Delt [ Kc, Jd ] Foreseen80 folds. LuckyRuss calls (1) kickrkevin folds. zubiac folds. Fooksie calls (0.50) UD_Delt checks. ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7s, 7c, 2d ] Fooksie checks. UD_Delt bets (1) LuckyRuss calls (1) Fooksie folds. ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jh ] UD_Delt bets (2) LuckyRuss raises (4) to 4 UD_Delt raises (4) to 6 LuckyRuss raises (4) to 8 UD_Delt calls (2) ** Dealing River ** : [ 6c ] UD_Delt checks. LuckyRuss bets (2) UD_Delt calls (2) ** Summary ** Main Pot: $24 | Rake: $1 Board: [ 7s 7c 2d Jh 6c ] Foreseen80 balance $25.75, didn't bet (folded) LuckyRuss balance $79.75, bet $12, collected $24, net +$12 [ Qh 7d ] [ three of a kind, sevens -- Qh,Jh,7d,7s,7c ] kickrkevin balance $112, didn't bet (folded) zubiac balance $40, didn't bet (folded) Fooksie balance $108, lost $1 (folded) UD_Delt balance $17.50, lost $12 [ Kc Jd ] [ two pairs, jacks and sevens -- Kc,Jd,Jh,7s,7c ] Well I think that's enough for tonight... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 28, 2004, 08:29:41 AM The last one I don't get. The board comes paired, you bet, you are raised...and you reraise? Why? You have top pair second kicker on a paired board.
Other than that things seemed ok. If a flush fills in and you lose you lose. If you lose to an AA that just calls preflop...you lose. The thing about playing maniacs, as you say, is that just because they bet garbage and play garbage doesn't mean they always have garbage. IMO it's bad strategy to gun for one player at a table. If you have the right position with the right cards go for it, but don't get caught playing dumb just because you think they are playing dumb as well. Sometimes you are at a table with a guy playing garbage and losing all his money, but he keeps beating you. The other day I had a guy hit 3 runner runner straights in a row on me...just wait till you have the best hand. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 28, 2004, 09:13:15 AM One the first hand, I personally would have folded on the turn. Johnny raised you as the big blind, so you should know he probably has something decent. He checks the A to see who plays, he knows he has the top set now and he pretty much knows a flush isn't gonna come down on that board. When he sees the turn, he knows for sure nobody can beat him with a flush, although there is a possible straight on the board. He checks again, you bet, he raises and that is when I would fold, figuring him for either top set or the straight. It sucks to fold a set, but sometimes you have to do it.
Second hand, you should have checked on the river with the intention of folding. The flush is up on the board and someone probably has it. I am not sure what the hell kodjak was still doing in that hand, he should have folded out on the turn and maybe post flop after your reraise. When you saw that third diamond you should realize you had the second best hand. Third hand, you got out at the right time. You were leading after the flop, but when the turn came down now you have two possible flushes up as well as the straight and you are sitting on the second best two pair. Fold and watch the action with a smile on your face knowing you didn't lose much. Fourth hand, I would have folded again on the turn. Either after his first raise, or after his reraise, I would have gotten spooked about the set. The other possible action is to check on the jack and see if you can't get a free card. If luckyruss bets on the jack, fold out believing he has AJ in the hole. I don't think there is any way I would have stuck around for the showdown in any of those hands. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 28, 2004, 09:46:27 AM Well, I managed to scrape and claw my way to a money finish in a tournament (my first positive experience in about a week). Unfortunately, it ended prematurely due to an unholy suckout. To wit-
Quote ********** # 1 ************** > PokerStars Game #409123373: Tournament #1500862, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2004/04/28 - 02:10:21 (ET) > Table '1500862 2' Seat #1 is the button > Seat 1: wayabvpar (2900 in chips) > Seat 2: HotRod777 (15500 in chips) > Seat 4: jessicak911 (4580 in chips) > Seat 6: ephraim (4020 in chips) > wayabvpar: posts the ante 50 > HotRod777: posts the ante 50 > jessicak911: posts the ante 50 > ephraim: posts the ante 50 > HotRod777: posts small blind 300 > jessicak911: posts big blind 600 > *** HOLE CARDS *** > Dealt to wayabvpar [Kd Ks] > ephraim said, "congrats jess, you're in the money" > ephraim: folds > ephraim said, "yep" > wayabvpar: raises 1200 to 1800 > ephraim said, "haha" > HotRod777: calls 1500 > ephraim said, "great minds think alike eh?" > jessicak911: folds > *** FLOP *** [Jd 6s 4c] > HotRod777: checks > wayabvpar: bets 1050 and is all-in > HotRod777: calls 1050 > *** TURN *** [Jd 6s 4c] [Kc] > *** RIVER *** [Jd 6s 4c Kc] [Qh] > ephraim said, "oops" > *** SHOW DOWN *** > HotRod777: shows [Tc Ad] (a straight, Ten to Ace) > wayabvpar: shows [Kd Ks] (three of a kind, Kings) > ephraim said, "wow" > j0hnnyv [observer] said, "wow" > HotRod777 collected 6500 from pot > ephraim said, "wow" > jessicak911 said, "doh" > ephraim said, "nh hotrod" > j0hnnyv [observer] said, "riverstars!" > *** SUMMARY *** > Total pot 6500 | Rake 0 > Board [Jd 6s 4c Kc Qh] > Seat 1: wayabvpar (button) showed [Kd Ks] and lost with three of a > kind, Kings > Seat 2: HotRod777 (small blind) showed [Tc Ad] and won (6500) with a straight, Ten to Ace > Seat 4: jessicak911 (big blind) folded before Flop > Seat 6: ephraim folded before Flop (didn't bet) My buddy and I were chatting via Messenger, and he was watching me play. Our conversation during the final hand- Me- cowboys Him- KKKKKKKK Him- KKKKKK! Him- fuck that! Me- OH MY FUCKING GOD Him- I will quit if you do! Me- I am THIS close to putting my foot through my fucking monitor I am just so fucking sick of outplaying dimwits (this whole tournament was infested with total fucktards) only to get kicked in the cock for my trouble. I may need a poker hiatus. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 28, 2004, 12:28:45 PM j0hnnyv [observer] said, "riverstars!"
That is really the only thing to be said. I have said that several times myself, including when I watch some guy in a just plain normal SnG, come back from having about 300 chips. He went all in about 5 times over the course of 7-8 hands, got called 3 times and caught the river each and every time. Edit - In other news, I am back to being cold decked and unable to pull a flop if my life depended on it. I end up with crap like 92o, T3o, A2o. I can't remember when the last time I got two face cards on the button was (Hah!l I just got it while making this post) and I can't remember the last time I had a strong A hand or decent suited connectors. It gets frustrating when you know you always have the second best hand and you are forced to fold on the turn or river after putting in money. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 28, 2004, 02:43:53 PM Yup. It is still offical, I am still cold decked. It is also offical that my most hated hand is the flush draw. I can't pick up a flush to save my life, but when someone else looks for their flush draw against me, they always hit it. I think I am just going to start folding whenever I see two of a suit on the board. The way my luck with flushes runs, I wouldn't be suprised if one day I bet all in on a boat and watch someone pick up a straight flush on the river with 4 cards from the board.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 28, 2004, 04:35:10 PM Blah, suck out city here I am. It's funny, you guys mention the river crap on Pokerstars and I drown.
Quote *********** # 10 ************** PokerStars Game #409949204: Tournament #1504590, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2004/04/28 - 19:13:47 (ET) Table '1504590 1' Seat #5 is the button Seat 2: JOHNWHIT (5365 in chips) Seat 5: Flashyhand (2275 in chips) Seat 6: thomase12 (3485 in chips) Seat 7: edjmac (2375 in chips) thomase12: posts small blind 75 edjmac: posts big blind 150 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [7c 7h] JOHNWHIT: folds Flashyhand: folds thomase12: raises 150 to 300 edjmac: calls 150 *** FLOP *** [Jc 4s 7s] thomase12: bets 300 edjmac: raises 300 to 600 thomase12: raises 2585 to 3185 and is all-in edjmac: calls 1475 and is all-in *** TURN *** [Jc 4s 7s] [As] *** RIVER *** [Jc 4s 7s As] [9s] *** SHOW DOWN *** thomase12: shows [7c 7h] (three of a kind, Sevens) edjmac: shows [Qd Qs] (a flush, Ace high) edjmac collected 4750 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 4750 | Rake 0 Board [Jc 4s 7s As 9s] Seat 2: JOHNWHIT folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Flashyhand (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: thomase12 (small blind) showed [7c 7h] and lost with three of a kind, Sevens Seat 7: edjmac (big blind) showed [Qd Qs] and won (4750) with a flush, Ace high 10 hands later I go all in with a pair. It holds up until again someone draws 4 suits off the board. Sometime this whole luck stuff really sucks. Had a lot of interesting hands that tournament. I trippled up here. I was pretty damn sure all of them were on draws: Quote *********** # 32 ************** PokerStars Game #409927302: Tournament #1504590, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2004/04/28 - 18:58:53 (ET) Table '1504590 1' Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: nessieboo (2005 in chips) Seat 2: JOHNWHIT (2585 in chips) Seat 3: Chas36 (970 in chips) Seat 5: Flashyhand (3175 in chips) Seat 6: thomase12 (1010 in chips) Seat 7: edjmac (1980 in chips) Seat 8: createlement (1000 in chips) Seat 9: karen19 (775 in chips) createlement: posts small blind 50 karen19: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [Jc Jd] nessieboo: calls 100 JOHNWHIT: folds Chas36: folds Flashyhand: calls 100 thomase12: calls 100 edjmac: folds createlement: calls 50 karen19: checks *** FLOP *** [8c 3d 7h] createlement: bets 100 karen19: calls 100 nessieboo: folds Flashyhand: calls 100 thomase12: raises 810 to 910 and is all-in createlement: calls 800 and is all-in karen19: calls 575 and is all-in Flashyhand: folds *** TURN *** [8c 3d 7h] [7c] *** RIVER *** [8c 3d 7h 7c] [8s] *** SHOW DOWN *** createlement: shows [2d 3h] (two pair, Eights and Sevens) thomase12: shows [Jc Jd] (two pair, Jacks and Eights) thomase12 collected 450 from side pot karen19: shows [4d 6s] (two pair, Eights and Sevens) thomase12 collected 2625 from main pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3075 Main pot 2625. Side pot 450. | Rake 0 Board [8c 3d 7h 7c 8s] Seat 1: nessieboo folded on the Flop Seat 2: JOHNWHIT folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Chas36 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Flashyhand folded on the Flop Seat 6: thomase12 showed [Jc Jd] and won (3075) with two pair, Jacks and Eights Seat 7: edjmac (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: createlement (small blind) showed [2d 3h] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sevens Seat 9: karen19 (big blind) showed [4d 6s] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sevens So, I guess the draws catch up to you. I don't think I'm playing bad per se, I just feel a tad off center and have been getting a lot of bad beats. Anyhow, losing to two draws killed my desire to play for the rest of the day. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 28, 2004, 05:01:35 PM By not raising your Jacks before the flop, you are pricing the draws into the pot. Throw a raise in there and destroy their odds (and value bet your hand at the same time, since it is likely the best preflop). After innumerable suckouts, I am inclined to try to win pots early rather than build them. The only slow playing I do now is when I flop a MONSTER (like top set with no straight or flush draws at the very minimum).
The crappy players will chase you down if you don't bet them out. In the long run, you will win more often than they do, but as when there are 4-5 chasers, odds are one of them will run you down. Punish them. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 28, 2004, 05:22:17 PM Well, I organized that post a bit wierd, but I did win with my jacks. And yah, I probably should have bet a bit more agressively preflop. However, everytime I bet heavy with JJ, KK, QQ, an ace shows up on the flop. Everytime.
However, I did notice a few times when I let people string along for too long and should have forced them out before the turn or river. Problem, when I try that, someone calls and catches 2 runners and offs me. It's like clockwork. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 28, 2004, 08:24:45 PM In NL it's usually best just to take the pot down when you can. If you do the math you quickly realize that taking the pot down is usually better than sticking around, even if you are ahead by quite a bit.
In tournaments I prefer to avoid all-in situations even when I have the best hand. I also tend to avoid big stacks in general. If you play against smaller stacks you can put pressure on them with your chips and the damage you can be dealt is limited, a suck-out isn't going to kill you. To win a tournment you HAVE to get lucky at some key moments. I don't let the random suckouts bother me. I once had a streak where I was all-in 8 times as the favorite and lost all 8 times. (AA vs J3, opponent flops JJ3 was one of them) The more chips you put on the line on any hand, the more you are letting luck and variance disrupt your tournament performance. In a cash game you can buy back in forever. The law of averages doesn't really work for tournaments. I'd rather sacrifice some expected value overall for more consistency, especially against a field that is weak. The weaker you think the players are, the less you should give them a chance to get lucky on you. Don't build your chips - just protect them and wait for them to make mistakes. Don't allow luck to become an equalizer. If you are truly better than the field, you build chips naturally unless you are cold-decked. The stronger you are the more risk-averse you should be. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on April 29, 2004, 03:08:31 AM Just wanted to let you guys know that I've started a Poker Blog so I can keep track of my winnings on my newfound quest to become a solid poker player.
Visit it at http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=laceratedsky Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 29, 2004, 07:04:49 AM Well last night I actually stuck to my plan of only playing Stars NL S&go's since that's the only place I'm showing a profit lately and I finally had a good night.
Interesting thing about the first $5 Sit&Go was that I managed to fold my way into second place. I think the whole tourney I had about 3 decent starters and all 3 missed the flop. By the time it got down to 5 way I was low man around $1100 and my stats were showing 6% of flops seen. At that point there was one major chip leader with the rest spread out between $1100 - $2000. I then just started stealing blinds on complete bluffs as I had no other choice and it seems like everyone else gave up on trying to take down the chip leader and was content to try and limp into the money so it worked. Once we got to 3-way I was around $2000, other guy had about $2400, and the chip lead was around $9000. Other guy screwed up and I limped into second place and stood no chance as the blinds were too high and I only got to see 3 hands. At the end of the tourney my stats showed 9% flops seen and 2 for 6 at showdowns. Pretty damn awful for taking 2nd place... I then played an $11 S&G and it played out exactly the same except this time I ended up as the chip leader. When we hit 3-way I was at $11000 with both of them around $1000. Makes it really easy to steal blinds when both are just fighting for second place and unwilling to play anything. Heads up got interesting as he managed to double through twice on crap hands but I got him the third time for the win. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Arthur_Parker on April 29, 2004, 11:57:59 AM Well these threads actually got me interested in hold em for the first time, being Northern Irish I started playing 5 card Poker for money when I was about 4. Not that that means I'm any good.
I like hold em a lot, I do have a bad habit of gambling too much when playing online, going all in before the flop etc not by chasing the river. I just get bored waiting for a good hand and my do some people play slow. I figure the smart play backed up from quick glances through a couple of books I have bought is sticking strictly to the odds. Was wondering if anyone had ever heard of any macro programs for playing poker online? Given the number of bad players (like me) out there I would imagine it could be quite a money spinner if programed correctly. I prefer playing poker in person as it's much easier to predict what people will do, online playing I would be happier to put on auto. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 29, 2004, 12:10:11 PM Man, I am totally sick of being cold decked. I can't fucking buy a good starting hand. All I get lately is basically pure crap and I end up playing it just because its the only thing I get. I am sick of seeing Q3o, J5o, 95o, etc. When I play low connecters, a high straight hits the board. When I play a high connecters, a low straight hits the board. When I play something suited, the exact opposite suit comes up on the board. It is really ticking me off. When I actually do get a good starting hand, someone pulls something better on the river.
Here is an example: Code: *********** # 8 ************** I suppose its an ok call by jed, but jesus what the fuck do I have to do to not get beaten by a flush? Here is another example from my very next SnG: Code: *********** # 2 ************** This time my flopped set gets beat by a straight. These are the kinds of hands I have been getting lately. When I have the best hand on the flop and bet aggresively someone sticks and gets something on the turn or river. I don't know what the fuck I can do. And of course it happens one more time in that final SnG: Code: *********** # 12 ************** I actually fucking flop a straight and look what happens, he fucking nails the boat. I knew he had a pair in the hole and I was guessing he flopped the set on the flop, but I had the nuts after the flop and still couldn't win. It really is getting disgusting. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on April 29, 2004, 12:48:14 PM Eh, on the first hand, jed made a bad call and caught a card. I still think calling an all-in on a draw is shitty play. You got fucking hosed, plain and simple.
On a personal note, I've been playing rotten poker lately. I'm not even really getting cold decked per se. I'm getting some good starting hands, just nothing ever hits on the flop or what hits is second best. My last tourney, I hit some hands, but that didn't stop the crappy play in subsequent hands just giving the chips back. I notice that the players I'm up against aren't very good and that I should be able to beat them. However, for some reason my brain isn't following my gut again and I'm making dumb fucking calls constantly. It doesn't help when I actually get a hand it usually ends up being second best to some ungodly flop. Playing this bad along with some school work I really need to get done has put me on self imposed poker exile. I'm not touching this shit for 3 weeks. Edit: For the first time I broke my not money then in money streak. I've gotten booted from my last 3 in a row. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 30, 2004, 08:32:57 AM All I can say about those hands MadMan is they are hands I would fold in the first few rounds. With the KdJd with 2 raises coming back I would have folded assuming I was dominated. It would have been a mistake since you actually were in the lead but it would have saved you chips in the long run. Playing pocket pairs lower than J's in the first few rounds is praying for a set. The raise in that hand killed your pot odds for the set so it should have been a fold. And 10Jo is just not a good hand at any level. You tried to limp which is an excusable mistake but then facing a large raise you call instead of fold which is a definate mistake. You were dominated pre-flop, you sucked out on the flop, and then he repayed the favor by hitting a 7 outer on the turn. If he missed the turn he still would have had a 10 outer on the river.
I'm still a big fan of playing extremely tight in those Sit&Go's. The only hands you're going to play are Tier 1 hands in the first level, Expand to tier 2 in the second level. Then around the fourth level you start playing to steal blinds very selectively, loosening up as more and more people drop out. In the first few rounds always come in for a big raise of around 5x the BB. Usually you will get one or two callers. Then if you hit the flop you most likely have the best hand since you're only playing the premiums so give another pot size bet. That should usually take it down. If someone raises at that point then you have to make your own decision. I now have records in poker tracker for about 30 of the $5.50 Sit & Go's and I'm around 58% in the money playing that way, with more firsts and seconds than thirds. So far I've only played about 7 of the $11 one's and I've take 2 thirds and a first with my style. Not enough of the $11's to figure out if it will work yet or not. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 30, 2004, 11:45:42 AM I don't know Delt, according to Skalnsky, I made the proper call in each of those hands at least preflop. In fact I probably should have raised on that first hand. Yes, it was early in the game, but I had a group 3 hand, was in an early position and I was the second person into the pot. I think if I had raised, jed might have folded out preflop. I think I probably should have also bet after the flop, but I wanted to check raise. I figured RealDeal had something semi decent, but I didn't figure it to be as good as my hand. I am personally suprised that jed stuck in for the large amount on a flush draw, and then called my reraise. I guess he felt like he was trapped and had to protect him money.
The second hand I am in the middle position with a Group 3 medium pair and a very small raise that would drive someone out of the game if I win. I had to call it, in fact I probably should have raised it. I am not exactly upset with this hand since I didn't lose a large amount of money. In fact my post flop raise was made to drive the people behind me out. I was mostly just using it as an example of how cold decked I was. As for the 3rd hand, I was again in an early/middle position and I had a group 5 hand, so it was marginally worth the original call. I probably should have folded when he made the raise, but I was short stacked and figured I might as well take the chance. If my flop doesn't come in, then I fold, if it does come in then I try to double up my money. He was on the big blind, so he could have could have had anything. I did however put him on a pair, and when the flop came down and he checked, I also correctly figured he had flopped his set. However, I had flopped the straight, so I felt I should double up my extremely short stack when I could. He had 7 outs and he caught one of them, which just proves how my luck had been running. In other news, since I am only 2.80 up from my original buy-in a little over a month ago, I am going to 'restart' on May 1st (and not play today). I am going to look back on this past month as a learning experience, read my books as I play and actually try to make it a profitable hobby. I don't expect to win a lot of money, but I believe I can hold my head well above water. I am not sure if I will head back to the ring games right away, or just stick with the SnG's. I do like the SnG's because there isn't nearly as much risk involved and I believe I was getting better at them (except for being cold decked and losing the last 8 of 10 tourneys). Sure I can't win nearly as much money, but I would still like to get more experience before heading back to the ring games. I am going to start up a clean database (I will keep the old one), set up a new email folder to store histories and try to remember to take notes on the people I play with. Wish me luck. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 30, 2004, 12:34:40 PM I actually haven't read Sklansky other than other authors references to his books. It is on my list of books to read but I'm not sure how much it will help at low limits since from what I've read in reviews Skalsnky somewhat expects the other players to be playing semi-properly.
FYI... Here's an example of an interesting article relating to Sklansky's book... http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/ Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 30, 2004, 12:58:04 PM Surprisingly, in each of those cases the people playing pretty much DID play properly preflop. The only real exceptions are RealFish making a raise from the first position with a group 6 hand (excusable because he was really short stacked I suppose) and me calling the raise with a group 5 hand on the third hand from an early position. Also as I said, I probably should have raised preflop in the first hand with the group 3 hand. The only real mistake after the flop that I can think of is jed calling all in on a flush draw, unfortunately it paid off for him.
Yes, from what I have read of Skalnsky so far (Hold 'Em Poker and working on both Hold 'Em for Advanced Players and Theory of Poker), he does expect you to be playing against normal players. However, from what I have seen, his play would still work pretty well at low limit tables even with all the river rats. Sure you are gonna get burned by those river rats occasionally, but most of the time you will end up getting even more money than you would against a normal player. I haven't gotten through all the books yet, so if someone who has read them all wants to correct me then feel free. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 30, 2004, 01:42:56 PM IIRC, Sklansky's hand groupings are designed for Limit games. NL games would have a different set (or at least have some hands in different groups).
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on April 30, 2004, 09:25:34 PM Yeah that is true Way, but I still feel I played all those hands correctly preflop, with the possible exception of calling the raise on the third hand. However I explained my rational for that. I knew that I would most likely be going out early in that tourney, so I felt it was worth the chance.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on May 01, 2004, 01:53:20 AM Ok, I broke my promise to myself and played again. I had some time before going to bed and couldn't think of anything better to do (had just done a lot of project work and COHing).
Well, it turned out to be worth it. Not only did I finish second (went all in on AK at the end about 2:1 chips down and lost to A3 suited hitting the flush), but I got some awesome hilarity out of it. Now, let me just premise these hands with a decription of this guy's avatar. It's a very fierce looking Jason Priestly face. Yes, I said fierce and Jason Priestly in the same sentence. Now as much as a menacing Brandon from 90210 or Billy the gay cowbow intimidates me, it also got a chuckle out of me the first time I saw it. What's even better, is I could imagine what this angsty fellow said during the tournament coming out of the Jason Priestly avatar. Quote *********** # 38 ************** PokerStars Game #413738192: Tournament #1520860, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2004/05/01 - 04:12:08 (ET) Table '1520860 1' Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: thomase12 (1425 in chips) Seat 2: Kdogg7 (7260 in chips) Seat 5: dbl_ac3s (2095 in chips) Seat 7: divefire (2720 in chips) Kdogg7: posts small blind 75 dbl_ac3s: posts big blind 150 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [Ad Qd] divefire: calls 150 thomase12: raises 1275 to 1425 and is all-in Kdogg7: folds dbl_ac3s: folds divefire: calls 1275 *** FLOP *** [2d 9s Td] *** TURN *** [2d 9s Td] [5s] *** RIVER *** [2d 9s Td 5s] [3d] *** SHOW DOWN *** divefire: shows [Qc As] (high card Ace) thomase12: shows [Ad Qd] (a flush, Ace high) divefire said, "b" thomase12 collected 3075 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 3075 | Rake 0 Board [2d 9s Td 5s 3d] Seat 1: thomase12 (button) showed [Ad Qd] and won (3075) with a flush, Ace high Seat 2: Kdogg7 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: dbl_ac3s (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 7: divefire showed [Qc As] and lost with high card Ace I got lucky there, but what's funny is how angry he got after losing. Spoutted a double bs, and vowed "it aint over yet" after I said "I'll take it". This is funny because he'd been complementing everyone else for catching absolute bullshit on the river (mostly everyone with a hot chick avatar). Now it was really fun busting him with this hand: Quote *********** # 22 ************** PokerStars Game #413743218: Tournament #1520860, Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2004/05/01 - 04:19:34 (ET) Table '1520860 1' Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: thomase12 (3000 in chips) Seat 2: Kdogg7 (8210 in chips) Seat 7: divefire (2290 in chips) divefire: posts small blind 100 thomase12: posts big blind 200 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to thomase12 [As Ks] Kdogg7: folds divefire: calls 100 thomase12: raises 200 to 400 divefire: calls 200 *** FLOP *** [Kd Kc 3d] divefire: checks thomase12: bets 200 divefire: calls 200 *** TURN *** [Kd Kc 3d] [Kh] divefire: checks thomase12: bets 200 divefire: raises 1490 to 1690 and is all-in thomase12: calls 1490 *** RIVER *** [Kd Kc 3d Kh] [9c] divefire said, "nh" thomase12 said, "night" *** SHOW DOWN *** divefire: shows [Js Qh] (three of a kind, Kings) thomase12: shows [As Ks] (four of a kind, Kings) thomase12 collected 4580 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 4580 | Rake 0 Board [Kd Kc 3d Kh 9c] Seat 1: thomase12 (big blind) showed [As Ks] and won (4580) with four of a kind, Kings Seat 2: Kdogg7 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: divefire (small blind) showed [Js Qh] and lost with three of a kind, Kings divefire [observer] said, " * * for being ****y" thomase12 said, "no problem" thomase12 said, "good night" Really, that made my day. I'm usually a fairly chatty player considering the level of talk on Pokerstars (mostly nill), but it's pretty fun when you can sublty get under someone's skin. The avatar just topped it off. Really, usually I block annoying avatars, but it was hard when it describes a player too accurately. Well anyhow, fun tournament. Humorous results and I played well. Played much tighter that I normally did, but it paid off. No limping in with crap like A3o and J10s and even folding some low pocket pairs when having to act early. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on May 02, 2004, 12:49:01 PM Sklansky is not a good tournament player. So why take his advice?
The idea of simulating hands is total bs. What hands win at a showdown is irrelevant in NL poker. Unless you are all-in preflop, your hand's chances in a showdown don't matter very much. Sklansky is not a good NL player or a good tournament player. The only major tournament he ever won (IIRC) was some triple-draw lowball thing with a couple hundred entrants, or something like that. So Sklanksy doesn't have much success taking his own advice - why will you? I'd much rather take some less analytical advice from someone who wins, vs some number-crunching from someone who doesn't. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on May 02, 2004, 04:35:56 PM Ah yes, the joys of No-Limit.
I played in two pretty big multi-table tourneys on Party this weekend. On friday it was the daily 10:30am $5+$1 multi-table. There were over 1000 entries, so the prize pool was faily large. They paid the top 110 finishers. After the second break I was in the CO and got dealt KK. The blinds were 300/600. 2 callers to me and I raise to 1200. SB folds, BB folds, EP caller calls, MP caller folds. Flop comes Axx. I bet out 300, he calls. Turn is a blank, and I bet 1200, he calls. River is another blank, he checks to me and I check it through fearing the worst. Sure enough he has A9o for the Aces over my Kings, and I lose over half my stack. Very next hand I am deal A10o and I push all in preflop. I get called by AJo and a Jack comes on the flop with no 10s in sight. I was in 114th place. Next tournament I played in was this morning. It was a $10 + $1 multi table with about 600 entries. Top 60 are in the money. After the second break I have about 4k chips, I lose 2800 of them due to an unimproved AK not holding up. I got beat by a pair of 4s. Then I am dealt JJ UTG. I have about 1200 chips so I push all in. The big blind decides to call me with 9 10s. Sure enough the flop is 9 10 x and I go down in flames. I was in 72nd place. I am starting to lose my fucking mind at the amount of good starting hands that get cracked on a regular basis by some jackass who decides he'll gamble with Ax or some other ridiculous hand. I know I am playing better, or I wouldn't be making it as far as I have been in these tournaments lately. But I just can't seem to make to it to the money due to suckouts near the moment of truth. Ah well, that's poker. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 02, 2004, 07:46:10 PM Blah, my May has not begun very well. Well it started ok, the second SnG I played I won. But then I lost 8 straight after that, and I didn't finish above 6th in any of them. Then I finished in the money in 4 straight and now I am bouncing back and forth. Money in one SnG, lose next two, money in next two SnG's, lose one, etc. Right now I am sitting about 8 bucks down from when I started May. Some of it has been bad plays by me, some of it has been getting screwed on the river and being cold decked. Part of my problem is that I sometimes take a gamble early in the SnG that doesn't pay off and so I end up short stacked through most of the tourney. Sometimes I get a big chip lead and then let people chip away at it or end up playing a little looser than I should.
I am very passive preflop and there are times where I won't raise a good hand in any position. I think that is because I have been burned by the flop too much. I have been trying to play with mostly good hands, but occasionally I still call crap either in the blind or to keep people off balance. I should probably still try to be a little more aggressive preflop though, but not much. I don't know if it is because I am passive preflop or just because I am playing good hands, but after the flop I tend to be very aggressive. I need to bet more on the river though, instead of the checking I am doing. Here is one of my favorite hands from one of the past few SnG's: Code: *********** # 16 ************** I was a little worried when the A popped because someone could have had KJ, but figured it was worth the shot. I really didn't think the KJ was likely, I figured they both had the A with another pair when they came out betting heavy on the turn. The funny thing is I probably shouldn't have even been in on the hand, since I normally tend to fold stuff like J8o. I bet Capt was drooling when he saw me reraise his top two pair, but he should have expected the straight. My most hated beat is still the flush. I fucking hate the flush. I can't ever buy a damn flush, my flush percentage is right around 4% for May and it was more like 2% for April. Meanwhile it seems like everyone else I play with can flop a flush just about every damn time they play suited cards. Although surprisingly I have won the most money so far from the flush in May. I also gotta stop thinking that a pair is going to hold up, I don't know why it seems like it holds up for everyone else, but I can only win with a pair around 30% of the time. Maybe that is the norm though, I just don't know. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on May 02, 2004, 08:18:01 PM He should have expected the straight? Are you fucking kidding me? You called a Preflop raise with J8o. Horrible, horrible, horrible play by you, you just happened to get very damn lucky this time around. If I was him I'd be more concerned you had QQ or 99.
You should be ashamed. Playing hands like this could definitely be a huge clue as to why you're not a winning player. Winning once out of 20 times with crap hands that happen to flop the nuts is not good for the longterm size of your bankroll. Let the other retards play these hands and win occasionally while you win it all back and more by playing smart. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 02, 2004, 08:47:03 PM Meh, J8o is alright to limp in with on occasion in my opinion. Had the preflop raise come before I already bet, then I am sure I would have folded, I also would have folded if the preflop raise had been bigger. As it was, I decided it was worth an extra bet to take a look at the flop. Had the flop not come down in my favor then it's an easy fold. Any way you look at it, he still should have been wary of the straight on that board as KJ could have easily played too.
I have no reason to be ashamed of my call there. If the flop doesn't come down for me then I get out early and lose a whole 60 chips which is not that big of a deal early in the game. If you had actually read what I wrote you would have noticed that I said I normally fold stuff like J8o, I just happened to play it this time. In fact looking back over my stats from this month and last, that is only the 2nd time I have played J8o out of 14 times I have had the hand (once was in the big blind with no preflop raises). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on May 03, 2004, 06:50:58 AM Quote He should have expected the straight? Are you fucking kidding me? He probably should have expected a straight since KJ on that flop also completes and KJs is a very possible hand even KJo is played by most people in the $5's from any position. Actually that hand was pretty bad all around... You limp with J8o and then call a raise with it. Then you only worry about KJ after the turn even though KJ already had you beat on the flop. You call all-in after a pot sized bet on the turn with second best current hand and a draw to a flush on the board. At that point you were gambling and hoping your hand was the best. You got lucky that there were only 5 outs against you rather than the 11 or more possible outs that cost you the pot (8 flush, 3 straight) with an additional 3 outs that cost you a split, not to mention the 5 existing outs. That's a hell of a lot of possible outs to be calling all-in with a second best hand. Edit: Oh yeah in case anyone missed it Stars is offering a reload bonus ending today for 20% of deposit up to $120. You have to play enough to earn FPP equal to the amount you deposit and you can't withdraw money before working off the bonus. Party Poker is also offering a 20% reload bonus (up to $100) using the "APRRELEASE" code through the middle of May. I love when all the sites start competing for my cash and offering nice incentives. In the last month I've gotten 2 reload bonuses for Party, one for UB, a 100% bonus up to $100 for first deposit at Royal Vegas, and now the Poker Stars bonus. Too bad I only have enough money online to take advantage of a few of them. I'll probably have time to do the 2 at Party and the one at Stars and I'll probably get the Royal Vegas one started. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 03, 2004, 09:21:15 AM Quote You have to play enough to earn FPP equal to the amount you deposit and you can't withdraw money before working off the bonus. Are you sure? In the past, you could withdraw 48 hours after your qualifying deposit. You can't withdraw PRIOR to making a qualifying deposit (they want 'new' money), but AFAIK you can withdraw your deposit after 48 hours and still earn the bonus. Quote I have no reason to be ashamed of my call there. If the flop doesn't come down for me then I get out early and lose a whole 60 chips which is not that big of a deal early in the game. This is a dangerous path. Do you think that losing players see the crap they play any differently? Tournament poker is all about stack conservation. The vast majority of the time playing J8o for a raise will result in you losing chips (and thus having a smaller stack). The few times it does it you can make some money with it, but the same could be said for 52 or 63. Calling a raise and begging for the perfect flop is a losing strategy long term. What happens if the flop comes J high? You have top pair with a terrible kicker. How can you play that with any confidence? Even J9 and JT have you beat. In other news, the deposit bonus spurred me out of the doldrums and got my bankroll headed the right direction. After depositing $200 on Friday to qualify for the bonus, I went on to KILL the 2/4 game, and even won a SnG. $157 in about 2 hours...good work if you can get it (and keep it!). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 03, 2004, 09:33:20 AM As I said, I wasn't really worried about KJ, I didn't figure either of them had it, but it was in the back of my head as I went all in. I had the SB on an A when he made the raise preflop, but again I felt since I was in for one I might as well be in for two, sometimes you just take the chance and let it ride. If he had made any sort of bigger raise (even 60 chips) I would have folded out preflop. When he came out betting big on the turn, I knew he had paired the A's and figured he had something else, just like I knew the second guy was also betting on the A pair.
You are right about one thing, and that was that I didn't think about the flush. I always forget about the flush and that is why I get burned by it a lot. My thinking at the time was that I had them on the hook and wanted to make them pay for it right now. I felt pretty strongly that I had the best hand on the turn and that the only thing that could beat me was a boat, so I went with it. If one of them had KJ or popped a flush I would have tipped my hat and moved on. Although I would have been slightly more ticked about the flush just because I hate getting beat by a flush. I don't feel lucky on that hand at all, I think I played it fairly well. I felt I had correctly predicted their hands and I wanted to make them pay. As I said, a bigger preflop raise would have driven me out, just like I wouldn't have chased anything past the flop if I didn't catch my hand. I doubt I would have gone to the turn even if I had ended up with an opened ended straight draw unless it was checked around. As for my calling the preflop raise, again I felt it was worth the extra bet. It is no worse than calling it with a middle pocket pair and then folding when when the flop shows all over cards. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 03, 2004, 09:47:05 AM Quote from: WayAbvPar This is a dangerous path. Do you think that losing players see the crap they play any differently? Tournament poker is all about stack conservation. The vast majority of the time playing J8o for a raise will result in you losing chips (and thus having a smaller stack). The few times it does it you can make some money with it, but the same could be said for 52 or 63. Calling a raise and begging for the perfect flop is a losing strategy long term. What happens if the flop comes J high? You have top pair with a terrible kicker. How can you play that with any confidence? Even J9 and JT have you beat. See my post above (edit - on the last page), I doubt I would have played it at all if anything but that flop came down or possibly two pair. If the board had come down J high then I would have checked and probably folded if anyone had bet. I have also said I don't normally play crap like J8o (and even J8s), but just decided on to take a chance on it this time. If the flop doesn't come down for me, I lose 60 chips and move on to the next hand. I don't see that call any different that say raising preflop with something like KQs (or calling a smaller preflop raise with a middle pair), and then having to fold when the flop comes down rags in the opposite suit or all overcards. Sure those two hands have much better odds but in the end you still lose your preflop bet. I don't sit there and call every crap hand I get, in fact I tend to fold stuff like suited connecters like T9s, 98s even when I could just limp in. For this month, I see the flop less than 30% of the time when I am not in the blind, so I think I am doing alright. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on May 03, 2004, 09:57:37 AM Quote I don't see that call any different that say raising preflop with something like KQs (or calling a smaller preflop raise with a middle pair), and then having to fold when the flop comes down rags in the opposite suit or all overcards. The difference is in how dominated the hand is. If you pair the J's you have an 8 kicker which is about worthless. If you pair either card of KQ you have a kicker which is second best. Also a connector plays much better than a 2-gapper for obvious reasons. W/ a 2 gapper you are very rarely even making the best straight when you do hit. Otherwise you are correct in that any two cards can win. Playing J8o is the same as playing 74o. You are hoping to connect with a miracle flop, either a straight and pray it's best, trips, or two pair. Hell any two cards can make a Full House too. FYI... I've also started a blog to use as a poker journal. If anyone is exceptionally bored and needs something to read: http://uddelt.blogspot.com/ Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on May 03, 2004, 02:07:17 PM I'd rather call a raise with 23 than J8. That way if the flop is all rags I could likely have the best hand, and nobody would put me on it. If the flop comes down with 2 3's nobody is going suspect I have a 3.
There is also less chance I am going to have a dominated hand. If I play J8 is a raised pot if I flop a Jack I could easily be behind AJ, JJ, AA, KK, QQ, AJ or any better kicker with the Jack. Even if I flop 2 J's I could still be outkicked. The player "Premier" on Stars uses this kind of strategy to good effect. For NL it makes some sense. (Makes no sense in limit) You won't win that often with a hand like 23, but when you do win you can win a lot because people will think "there is no way he has 23." In a raised pot I don't want to be playing dominated hands like J8, JT, etc. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on May 06, 2004, 10:44:54 AM Heh, decided to buy in for a little more and play the 10 dollars tables. A much more enjoyable experience IMO, although I'm basing this on not may played at the moment. So far there are less assholes and some people are actually making intelligent plays. However, riverstars is alive and well at this level also.
I played a tournament last night and for the first part of it I was just on fire. I was hitting the nuts and getting good value out of it constantly. I was smelling out traps and making the tought laydowns when I had to. I guess we all seem to play like gods when we're catching cards. Usually I can't get good value out of these types of hands, but I've learned some methods for getting people to pot commit or just call along thinking you're bluffing. Here are the stats for the tournament: 126 hands played and saw flop: - 21 times out of 37 while in small blind (56%) - 11 times out of 37 while in big blind (29%) - 19 times out of 52 in other positions (36%) - a total of 51 times out of 126 (40%) Pots won at showdown - 12 out of 15 (80%) Pots won without showdown - 29 Flops seen is a tad high (ok, pretty damn high for my standards as of late), but I was really hitting a lot of cards and heads up went on for a bit. I think at one point I had two face cards about 7 times in a row. I actually wasn't hitting a lot of flops, but gathering a decent sized stack I was able to push the smaller stacks away towards the end. Of the 3 hands I lost, one was a collossal suckout; the guy caught 2 runners for a flush. The other two I misplayed, the final hand being making a semi bluff(had top pair) all in and getting caught by AA. I finished second, but the other guy was a much better heads-up player than and had about 3k chips on me heading in. I still stink heads up, the only people I beat heads up I've noticed are pretty bad ABC poker players. Ohh, and I've started playing the low buy in daily large tournaments when I can (the $1 + 0 and so on) to get a feel for large tournment play. I'm getting a bit better each time, improving my end position by a couple hundred positions (700 to 450ish to under 200). I've just been having trouble building stacks and eventually get chip whipped out of the tournament. I've noticed I'm not at my best when it's a 9 man table, I'm more comfortable when it's down to about 5-6. I'm open for any ideas on how to improve my 9 man table play or large tourney play. PS. I'm just getting sick of people that cry when they get beat on the river or go out on a bad break. Really, it's STILL gambling and luck does play a roll. I want to reach out through the computer, slap them, and yell really loudly in their face "QUIT BEING SUCH A PUSSY. IT'S POKER. MOVE ON!". Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on May 06, 2004, 11:39:09 AM Had a guy in a big multi table tournament that lost his damn mind because he went out on the first hand.
Basically went like this, guy raises to about 250 preflop, other guy raises to 400, and first raiser pushes all in and the other guy calls. Initial raiser has QQ and the Caller has AKs. Flop comes Axx and that's all she wrote. Or so you think. The guy who lost with QQ procedes to verbally berate the guy who beat him about how AK isn't the nuts, and that he is a terrible player etc etc. I'm used to that sort of thing, however this guy stuck around for over two hours verbally abusing this other guy everytime he either won or lost a hand. He'd say things like "AWESOME HAND" when another person at the table would beat the guy. It was retardation at it's finest, and when I told him to shut the hell up he accused me of collusion with the guy who beat him in the first hand. Some people just should not play Poker. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 06, 2004, 11:43:05 AM I love it when I knock people like that out.
"What the hell are you doing playing shit like that???" "Stacking your chips, what does it look like I am doing?" That usually elicits a torrent of profanity from the jackass and a hearty chuckle from the rest of the players. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on May 06, 2004, 01:49:28 PM Anyone else going to be in Vegas around World Series time? I am not playing, but may go hang out with a buddy who is. Hopefully, I can do well in the ring games on the strip while the good players are playing/watching at the 'shoe =)
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 06, 2004, 01:57:36 PM Hard to say- either there will be a ton of good players in town, or a ton of tourists. I would say both, and it will take some looking to find the really soft games.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 07, 2004, 03:58:08 PM Wow...today was odd to say the least. I lost the first 5 $5 SnG's I played today. It was a combination of a cold deck and some bad plays on my part. I haven't been doing as well I as I should be the past day or so and I have been hovering right around my original buy in.
I started today just above my $100 buy in and after losing those 5 $5 SnG's, I decided to say screw it and played a $10 SnG. I ended up going out on the bubble in that one and was down about $40 bucks for the day. However, in the sense of a true optimistic gambler I said, "I can make it back! All I have to do is win a $10 SnG and I will be back over my original buy in!". So of course I started another one and although I didn't get first, I did manage to get 3rd. That just whet my appetite and I said "Well, that went well, I can play one more now!" So I join another one and ended up playing pretty well, although I think I got called a fish because I folded a couple of times to reraises when there was a flush on the board. Of course I wasn't holding anything of that suit, although once I did have top pair, but a crappy kicker. The justice came when the guy who called me a fish went out on the bubble. I had gone up several hundred chips early and ended up losing some of it when I couldn't get a flop to hit me. By the 32nd hand, it was into the 4 way and I was had the small stack at just under the original 1500 chips. I was getting bled and so I decided to either go out or get lucky on this hand: Code: *********** # 36 ************** As you can tell, I got lucky. I felt a little more comfortable after I had some extra chips behind me. Zelik (the guy who called me a fish) went out on the 38th hand when he gambled on a pair of J's with a king kicker. Too bad nutflushdraw had J's and 9's when he tried it. It didn't help when another J hit on the turn. So I was in the money again, but I was still short stacked compared to nutflushdraw. I went through a rough batch of cards and nutflush and voodoo tried to bleed me off by stealing my blinds. I got lucky again on this hand: Code: *********** # 58 ************** I felt kind of bad after getting lucky like that, but I also felt alot more comfortable with about 3500 in chips. I felt like I could be a little more aggressive then and pulled a set on the river 10 hands later. That gave me just over 5k in chips and I was finally the chip leader. From there, I went down a little, then made it back up, went down a little, made it back up and just sort of hovered between 3.5-5k chips for the most part. The around the 93rd hand, I started to hit some flops and they kept calling me. By the 97th hand I was up over 8k in chips and the two left were starting to respect my bets a little more. I got a couple of folds on weak middle pairs or pure bluffs, in fact I bluffed one of them out of the blinds on the river with 32o. I really wanted to show him those cards, but I resisted. On the 114th hand I was over 10k in chips and then got sucked out of about 2k in chips by betting into Voodoo who had a set of T's on the flop while I was betting on two pair - 9's and 10's. On the 115th hand nutflush went out when his ATo didn't catch anything on the board and my A3s hit a 3 on the flop. Two hands later this went down: Code: *********** # 117 ************** I went all in praying he also had the flush, which I sort of had him on when he stayed with 3 hearts on the board even though it was a small bet. I actually had to look twice at the my hand to make sure I had the straight flush. It is only the second time I have had a straight flush. With this win, I actually ended the day up slightly, which I really needed. I am tempted to just play the $10 SnG's because I seem to do much better there. I am not sure if it is because I concentrate more with an extra $5 on the line or if it is just the fact that the people on those tables tend to play a little more 'normally'. I don't know why but I don't really deal with maniacs very well. I also think I need to work on my hand readings a bit more. I guess I am a weak tight player, I know there are some places where I should raise or reraise, but I don't as well as places where I should call a bet or raise and don't. I guess that is something that will come with more experience. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 07, 2004, 05:00:01 PM If your bankroll can handle it, the $10 SnGs aren't much different from the $5 (at least on Stars).
Quote *** FLOP *** [8h 3h 5h] nutflushdraw: bets 700 TheMadMadman: raises 700 to 1400 nutflushdraw: raises 700 to 2100 TheMadMadman: calls 240 and is all-in This is just a terrible play that got paid off on the river. Don't let the results fool you. Not only are you almost assuredly outkicked if he is playing top pair, but both a straight and a flush are possible. If you are going to play this hand, don't just min raise him- shove the stack in and be done with it. You are going to end up all in anyway, but if you are the aggressor, you might get him to lay down a hand that has you beat (which in this case, is almost anything!). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 08, 2004, 12:33:30 AM Oh yeah, I knew it was a bad play when I made it. I was trying to buy the pot, betting that he didn't have an 8 or that he would think I hit the flush. I was surprised when he turned over K8 in the pocket as I kind of thought he was trying to buy the pot. I know I got real lucky on that hand on the turn. At the time I felt I was backed into a corner and I had to try to make a move. I was in the money, so I wouldn't have really been upset if it hadn't paid off, but I am glad it did.
One of the things that these hand histories don't show is the time taken before bets. On that particular hand, I just jumped right on the raise button hoping that a quick raise would drive him out. He did hesitate for a while before he tried to shove me out. Normally I wouldn't play that hand, even in a loose 3 way. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 24, 2004, 09:38:10 AM Just a heads up for everyone- the World Series of Poker main event started over the weekend. Some big names that have bit the dust thus far-
Danny Negreanu Chris Moneymaker Antonio Esfandiari TJ Cloutier Sammy Farha Men Nguyen John Bonetti Phil Ivey Scotty Nguyen (unconfirmed) Should be interesting. 2400 starters (with 200 alternates), first prize is $5,000,000+. Wow. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Anger on May 24, 2004, 11:40:54 PM So, no-limit Hold 'Em, in a live game setting, may be my new favorite game of all time. I've played it twice now, twice in about for day's time. Saturday I played for several hours in a multi-table tournament, and tonight (Monday) I played for a few hours at a short table (5 guys, including myself).
I was seriously terrified about playing no-limit before these few days, but now I am absolutely all for it. All for it. Don't get me wrong, I'm no superhero at the table, but the game is completely different from playing limit, especially limit online. I remember winning a pot and having my hands shake for a good few minutes afterwards. Saturday I played in a multi-table dealio, it was 18 people. We started with three tables of 6, when each table got down to 3 players we had something to eat and then put the last nine at a single table to shoot it out. I remember the first hand I got was QQ, and I won, not a huge pot, but it was ok. Time went by and I won a few more, but had to fold on good hands where I knew I was beat, so my stack was dwindling. I got QQ again. Now, these were the best cards I'd seen all night, as I was getting garbage. I swear to you I saw 8c4d five seperate times within an hour or two, and they kept coming like that. So I bet my QQ pretty strongly, and won. About half an hour later the chip leader at my table has a sizeable lead, but I'm doing ok...not great, but ok. I get QQ AGAIN, and I'm thinking "Fuckit, I feel I've gotten my money's worth already, and this is just too crazy NOT to bet on." So I go all-in and get two, TWO callers pre-flop, and the Queens hold up against 57s and some other garbage (half the table was playing trash consistently). So I make it to the final table, I want to make a point that I had seen a single straight, and no flushes, from anyone, at the previous table. The strippers are about to show up (don't ask), and everyone's getting antsy (well, almost everyone). Dude goes all in pre-flop, and he hasn't proven to be that strong a player, everyone folds and I've got A6s, I think "Fuck it." and call, as I have YET to see a friggin' flush. He's got KQo, and we see the flop. 78J, with no flush anywhere to be seen for anyone, turn comes A, and River is garbage. Two other guys go out, one by me I think, there are five of us left and they all want to split, but I've got a mountain of chips. I offer that anyone can leave with their buy-in if they want, everyone thinks this is fair and two people leave, the three of us left then decide to split. I probably could have beaten them both, one of them for sure, but was happy to be out ahead. Tonight with the table of five I had some serious high's and low's. I limped to the River one hand with pocket 7's, and the River card was 7. The board was something like ?QJ?7 rainbow. All I remember is no straights or flushes possible, and dude goes All-In. At this point I'm freaking out, because I'm positive I have the best of it, but he just went all-in. I call, mainly because A) I'm almost postiive I have him beat, and B) This is my first time playing with these guys, if I lose, there's a better chance they call me to play again. He's got nothing, and I basically double up. He gets me back about half an hour later with a straight flush against my AAJJ. He called all-in, and I looked at him, and there was that goddamn feeling, that You're-Beat bullshit that I listen to less than I should, and I call him. His body-position is more upright, and he's more active tan when he tried buying the pot from me, and I call him anyway. Live and learn I guess. He takes all my cash, and I sit there a bit talking to these guys...there are only three of us left. I buy $10 more in chips (original buy-in was $20), and go agressive, in the half hour we played with just three of us, I end up making most of my cash back. I think I ended up $3.50 down for the night, but took home $25 since they had no small bills. Confident that I'll be invited back, I wouldn't care if I lost all $30. So, we'll see how it goes. Does anyone use Turbo Texas Hold 'Em from Wilson Software, been thinking of buying it, but can't get past the hefty pricetag. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 25, 2004, 09:20:33 AM I have used Turbo Texas Hold 'Em in the past. It is pretty amazing for software, but real experience is a better teacher. I would suggest spending the money on a couple of poker books and some micro limit stuff online if you are in the mood to learn. If you want to tinker, run simulations, etc, then TTH is great for that sort of thing.
As for NL games- I RARELY play any other kind of tournament. Cash games, however, are a different story. In a tournament, my finanacial liability is limited to the buy in. In a ring game, I can lose my whole roll in a NL game if I catch a hideous beat. I just can't handle the variance in NL cash play- I prefer to grind out 3-4 BB/100 hands at the 2/4 or 3/6 tables. I win 4 sessions out of 5, so my bankroll keeps growing, and I can eventually work my way up to some real limits. Live games are quite different though- I would feel much more comfortable in a live NL game than online. With poker's wild popularity, there are tons of godawful players trying it out for the first time. I am pretty sure I am a hell of a lot better than most of them, so my EV is definitely positive in any game format against all the n00bs. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on May 27, 2004, 09:22:05 AM Goddamn it, my post got eaten. Let me try to recreate it, since I know you all care.
This is how my night went- cold, dead cards, interspersed with busted draws and a few tough beats (AQ, flop is AQx, turn K, river J, opponent has KK...that kind of thing). My original buy in for the table was $80, and I was down to $5.50 when this hand happened- Quote > PokerStars Game #454559068: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2004/05/27 - > 01:03:35 (ET) > Table 'Denebola' Seat #2 is the button > Seat 1: crazy razer ($103 in chips) > Seat 2: letitride10 ($76 in chips) > Seat 3: gmoney04 ($116.50 in chips) > Seat 4: Chisness ($119 in chips) > Seat 5: nfinity711 ($129.50 in chips) > Seat 6: bobcat ($17 in chips) > Seat 7: wayabvpar ($5.50 in chips) > Seat 8: wheresmykeys ($76 in chips) > Seat 9: sluttyh ($267.50 in chips) > Seat 10: Unbearable ($93.50 in chips) > gmoney04: posts small blind $1 > Chisness: posts big blind $2 > *** HOLE CARDS *** > Dealt to wayabvpar [Jc Ac] > nfinity711: folds > bobcat: folds > wayabvpar: raises $2 to $4 > wheresmykeys: folds > sluttyh: folds > Unbearable: folds > crazy razer: folds > letitride10: raises $2 to $6 > gmoney04: folds > Chisness: folds > wayabvpar: calls $1.50 and is all-in > *** FLOP *** [Kc 2c Qc] > *** TURN *** [Kc 2c Qc] [Tc] > *** RIVER *** [Kc 2c Qc Tc] [Ad] > *** SHOW DOWN *** > wayabvpar: shows [Jc Ac] (a Royal Flush) > letitride10: mucks hand > wheresmykeys said, "nh" > wayabvpar collected $14 from pot > Chisness said, "wow" > *** SUMMARY *** > Total pot $14 | Rake $0 > Board [Kc 2c Qc Tc Ad] > Seat 1: crazy razer folded before Flop (didn't bet) > Seat 2: letitride10 (button) mucked [Js Ah] - a straight, Ten to Ace > Seat 3: gmoney04 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: Chisness > (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 5: nfinity711 folded before Flop > (didn't bet) Seat 6: bobcat folded before Flop (didn't bet) > Seat 7: wayabvpar showed [Jc Ac] and won ($14) with a Royal Flush > Seat 8: wheresmykeys folded before Flop (didn't bet) > Seat 9: sluttyh folded before Flop (didn't bet) > Seat 10: Unbearable folded before Flop (didn't bet) FUCK!!!! Why can't I catch hands like this with a decent stack? My opponent made a straight on the turn, and I KNOW I could have extracted a few more bets. Such is life. It was damned pretty at least. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 30, 2004, 01:42:51 PM Well, I just finished a Poker Stars freeroll at 560/6000. I should have finished higher but I got a horrible beat by the luckiest chipleader in history. It was the 8th level 25a 200/400 and I am in the middle of the pack with about 9k or so in chips. I get AdJd and go all in, the chip leader at the table goes and calls me with K4o, the flop comes down 44x with 2 diamonds. He catches a K on the turn and I am all done.
I guess it was just karma for the hand I tripled up on early in the freeroll. I had TT and went all in, get two callers. One has AA, one has KK. I say to myself 'shit, I guess I am going out early'. The flop comes down with a T and I go on to a higher table. I haven't really been playing much poker for money in the past 2-3 weeks as I have been a bit too busy. I just decided to play this tourny on a whim and I am glad that my skills still seem to be there. I didn't make too man bad moves and I made quite a few good ones. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on May 30, 2004, 11:41:48 PM Man, I know it's a freeroll, but... why go all in with AJ suited when you're still sitting pretty good with chips? A lot of poker is still to be played.
Anyhow, I'm pretty much out of playing online poker. The wife just isn't comfortable with it and I don't feel like making it an issue. (Just bought a house too, so she's kinda freaked about cash) I've got plenty of other interests to keep me busy. Ones that don't slowly lose me money. I'm good enough to make 50 bucks carry me a while, but it's just a matter of attrition. I don't like playing ring games and you've got to play a little better than I do to make money in the sit n go's. Placing just about every other time loses you money at a trickle rate. I'll still be watching the hell out of the WPT. Some interesting results this year, although I don't particularly like watching Gus Hansen win, the lucky fucker. Hopefully, somewhere down the line, I can get in a live game. Small sit n go's with friends is hard to beat. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on May 31, 2004, 05:44:54 AM Yeah, I probably should have just made a decent sized raise and played it out. Depending on how the other guy bet, I probably would have folded on the turn. If it wasn't a freeroll, I probably wouldn't have gone all in unless I was in the money.
It was really too bad he didn't call my all in a few hands earlier when I had AA. I had gone through a bad run of cards (about 20 hands) and then got AA, junk, junk, AJs fairly fast, so I felt it was a good chance to double up. It just didn't pay off that time. Oh and Rasix, you should keep playing those $5 SnG's if you can afford it. You will probably slowly bleed money, but it isn't a lot and you can keep your skills sharp. Plus you will slowly start to get in the money more often and should end up being able to keep your head above water. Sure you aren't going to win a lot of money, but you aren't going to lose a lot either. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 08, 2004, 07:48:53 PM I have started playing a bit more poker lately just because I have been a bit bored and I think I have actually been playing a bit better. I have only really been playing premium hands and it has been paying off. I have also tried to be a bit more aggressive when I do play a hand. Bluff betting the flop or turn instead of checking when I am in late position, a bit more check raising, reraising possible bluff bets, limping in with big hands preflop when in early position (depends on the table), etc.
I am starting to really like limping in early position with group one hands, especially with AA. I had two hands today where I got AA in the early position (once in the big blind) here are the results: Code: *********** # 29 ************** That was probably my favorite move and I almost raised preflop. I decided to limp in and see what happened. When he raised I almost shot out of my seat and went all in to see if he would follow. The other time was the same guy and I was in the big blind: Code: *********** # 53 ************** I am not sure and I am too lazy to scroll through the history right now, but I believe those were the only two times I went all-in preflop at least until I was in the money. I really enjoy heads up and three way play and I know that if I can get to the money then I have a good chance of winning it all outright. I feel my heads up/three way play is pretty good because even though I will see a lot more flops than I normally would, I feel like I know how to actually play the hands. I still probably see the flop more than I should, but I feel more comfortable playing that way. If I try to play too tight and only see ~20-25% of the flops, then I end up losing. If I try to play too loose and see ~45-50% of the flops then I usually end up losing. But if I play my normal game and see between 30-35% of the flops then I end up doing much better. Those percentages are before I get into the money because once I am in the money I tend to see a few more flops than I normally would. Going all the way to when I started using Poker Tracker, I have played 10.799 hands (single table SnG hands) and I have a VIP of surprisingly high 37.86%. My saw flop not on a blind is 29.17% and saw flop all hands is 40.72. Those numbers are admittedly high, but remember a lot of those hands were played before I really knew how to play Hold 'Em. According to those same numbers, I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are. Alright, I have babbled enough, so let me just say I am enjoying playing poker again. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on June 09, 2004, 08:19:03 AM I am a ring game guy, not a tourney guy, but I cannot imagine calling all in with an A-2 offsuit.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on June 09, 2004, 09:31:09 AM Quote I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are. Gone to showdown is about right, but W$SD is too low. It should be between 52 and 58% ideally. Any higher and you are probably folding some winners; lower and you are showing down too many losing hands. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on June 09, 2004, 10:21:00 AM Sub 50% on a showdowns seems awefully low. I remember being somewhere in the 60-70% range. (probably would be higher, but I tend to lose the check-checkathons when no one has any sort of hand) But, I tend to make a lot of laydowns if I believe I'm beat. I tend to go on gut and when I don't pay attention to the warning bells, bad things happen.
Of course, like Way pointed out, I probably folded a decent amount of winners. But take anything I say with a grain of salt, I'm not playing anymore and probably won't for a long time. (still wish there was a live game near me) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 09, 2004, 11:00:07 AM Quote from: WayAbvPar Quote I have gone to the showdown 33.80% of the time and won money at the showdown 48.45% of the time, but I am not sure how good or bad those numbers are. Gone to showdown is about right, but W$SD is too low. It should be between 52 and 58% ideally. Any higher and you are probably folding some winners; lower and you are showing down too many losing hands. Yeah, I figured it was a bit low, but remember a bunch of those hands were from when I didn't fully understand the game, plus I end up losing a lot check-a-thons. According to the stats from May on, when I started to take the game a bit more seriously, my W$SD is still a bit low at just over 50%, but much better. Of course my Gone to Showdown numbers are a little higher too at just over 34%. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 09, 2004, 12:28:48 PM Can someone smarter than me tell me if this guy was making correct calls? It just doesn't seem like it to me. I probably would have folded out on the turn at the latest.
Code: *********** # 4 ************** This hand really pissed me off and put way down in the tournament and I ended up going out 5 hands later. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on June 09, 2004, 01:35:11 PM I can see the logic behind it. Personally, I would want a couple more folks along for the ride preflop so I can get paid if my ideal flop comes, but he likely would have raised with his hand, so calling your raise isn't horrible (not the greatest play either)
. On the flop, he raised you to gather information; you had raised before the flop, then made a weak bet on the flop. Your reraise was small enough to price him in (which is one of the main reasons I never min raise- if I am going to raise, I want people to know I like my hand). On the turn, he picked up his flush draw. Your bet was not even a third of the pot; his odds of hitting his draws (he has a straight draw, a flush draw, and his overcards may be good for outs) make it right to call. If you want to push him out of the pot, make a pot sized bet here. On the river, one of his draws hit. If he put you on hand that paired the board, he thinks he is ahead here (which he announces by min raising...god I hate that play). Were I to play your hand, I would A) probably muck preflop (too early position for ATo unless the table is very passive). If I decided to play, I would raise preflop (as you did). On the flop, I would make a pot-sized bet- I have TPTK, and someone needs to convince me I don't have the best hand. This also puts the screws to anyone who flopped a straight draw with the 8 and T; the odds are higher than the 2-1 the pot is laying him. If he still hangs around, I make another pot-sized bet on the turn; until I get raised, I feel like I probably have the best hand. A call here makes me put on the brakes for the river though, fearing my opponent has been passively playing an overpair. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 09, 2004, 01:55:54 PM OK, I can understand how he played it. Thanks Way.
It was a little early to tell if the table was passive since it was only the 4th hand that this happened. That is why I made a fairly small raise preflop, had there been any reraises behind me I didn't want to be in for too much and most likely would have folded. I did miss his flush draw, so I was thinking he was drawing for the gutshot straight or the overpair which is why it didn't make sense to me. Now that I see he had the flush draw too, his call on the turn makes much more sense even if it is a semi-small bet. You are right, I should have either raised more on preflop, or reraised harder post flop. I was thinking about betting harder pre and post flop, but it was early in the tourney so I didn't want to get too behind. Too bad that didn't work out as planned. Oh well, those are the breaks. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Kairos on June 09, 2004, 05:09:29 PM Quote from: El Gallo I am a ring game guy, not a tourney guy, but I cannot imagine calling all in with an A-2 offsuit. Depending on the circumstances, ace high with a shitty kicker is often a good enough hand to go all-in with in a tourney. But under the circumstances of that hand, I would say not. He still had more than enough chips to do some damage. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 10, 2004, 07:46:46 AM Well, after following this thread I finally succumbed to the pressure and registered for Pokerstars. I started with $100 and i'm up $25 at a .50/1 table last night, and I'm trying out the method of moving up limits that was posted way back on page two. $25 more and I'll move up to the next tier. So far, it's a lot of fun.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 10, 2004, 09:22:53 AM Paelos:
Be warned that that is a very agressive scale and odds are you will often go broke and have to drop down multiple times at any given level. If you are certain you have the discipline to always drop down in time or if you are willing to add more money then it's not a bad scale. Otherwise, if you want to make your initial $100 last as long as possible and build up slowly with low variance I would follow the general rule of thumb of playing within a 300x BB bankroll. This also gives you time to play at each level so you have the confidence that you actually beat that level and didn't just get lucky. Start at .50/1 and move up to 1/2 when you have $600. 2/4 at $1200 and so on. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on June 10, 2004, 09:38:48 AM Another option- if you like tournament play, there a tons of cheap ($10 or under) multitable tournaments every week. Also, you can play one or two table Sit and Gos (sponataneous tournaments that start as soon as they fill) starting at $5.50. Lots of bang for your buck at the low levels.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 10, 2004, 09:49:35 AM I've looked at the tournaments, and I played in a NL $3 last night, which I got waxed in, but I was playing with my winnings from the .10/.25 table as the entry, so no loss there. The problem is that the tourneys I like go on while I'm at work, so I have trouble getting into them. I'm not ready for the big dog $20 ones that seem to go on during my primetime of 7-11 EST.
Any thoughts on the best tournament to focus on for starters and some possible strategies? Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 10, 2004, 10:00:50 AM For experience start playing as many of the 9 man NL $5.50 Sit & Go's as you can. If you play extremely tight (Tier 1 & 2 hands) it should get you into the money about 40% of the time which will be a little better than break even.
Once you get used to the flow of the game for the single table tourneys try the 2 table (18 man) tournies. From there you can either focus on moving up in limits at the single and 2-table tournies or you can work on expanding what you know into the larger field tournies. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on June 10, 2004, 10:06:35 AM Quote from: Kairos Depending on the circumstances, ace high with a shitty kicker is often a good enough hand to go all-in with in a tourney. But under the circumstances of that hand, I would say not. He still had more than enough chips to do some damage. I could see going all in with Ax would be the right thing to do in some situations, but calling all in with it? I guess maybe if you were about to get driven out of the game with the blind costs maybe. Like I said, I know jack about proper tournament play. I catass ring games for the win :) Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 10, 2004, 10:10:05 AM I've seen you throw around the term of tiers a lot, exactly what hands constitute Tier 1 hands and Tier 2 hands? I'm guessing Tier one is AA, KK, AK. Is tier 2 KQ, QQ, QJ? If so how does AJ, KJ, AQ fall into the spectrum?
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on June 10, 2004, 10:16:16 AM Ok sanity check. Calling an all in with A 2o when you've still got plenty of chips is stupid and bad play. All you're doing is hoping for an ace and praying your oponent doesn't have one either. I can see going all in with in if you're short stacked, but otherwise, it's not that good of a hand and often unless it's down to a few people I'd outright fold it. Of course, Phil Gordon won in the WPT event I saw last night by calling 2 all-ins with an A7 (can't remember if it was suited, stronger hand than A2), caught the ace and knocked out Masoud(10 6s, wtf) and Moneymaker (JJ) at the same time.
Personally, I can't stand ring games. I prefer the tournament settings. But you can and do make more money more steadily at the ring games if you play smart. Just can't beat the tension and drama in a tournament (can't beat the horrendous suckouts either, uggg). Edit: For recommendations, I'd go for the $5.50 sit n go's. You'll get a good sense of tournament play and you'll sometimes even get to play a good player. Just a bit of warning, it won't take you long at this level to realize why they dub Pokerstars "Riverstars". You'll take some horrendously bad beats but take the high road and don't cry about them (god I hate that). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on June 10, 2004, 11:22:12 AM Quote from: Paelos I've seen you throw around the term of tiers a lot, exactly what hands constitute Tier 1 hands and Tier 2 hands? I'm guessing Tier one is AA, KK, AK. Is tier 2 KQ, QQ, QJ? If so how does AJ, KJ, AQ fall into the spectrum? Some links- Sklansky Hand Groupings (http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/texas-holdem-hand-groupings.htm) Adbul's Hand Groupings (http://posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html) Alternative Groupings (http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_starting_hands.html) For a new player, I would recommend Sklansky; his are pretty tight, so they will keep you out of trouble. As you gain experience, you can tinker and play different strategies (as you learn to recognize opponent types). Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 10, 2004, 11:43:03 AM WayAbvPar gave you some good links.
If you want another read here's another theory of starting hands using Sklanskys as a base: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/ If you want the short version: (s means suited, no s means offsuit) Tier 1: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs Tier 2: TT, AQs, AJs, KQs, AK Tier 3: 99, JTs, QJs, KJs, ATs, AQ Tier 4: T9s, KQ, 88, QTs, 98s, J9s, AJ, KTs Tier 5: 77, 87s, Q9s, T8s, KJ, QJ, JT, 76s, 97s, A9s - A2s, 65s Tier 6: 66, AT, 55, 86s, KT, QT, 54s, K9s, J8s Tier 7: 44, J9, 43s, 75s, T9, 33, 98, 64s, 22, K8s - K2s, Q8s Tier 8: 87, 53s, A9, Q9, 76, 42s, 32s, 96s, 85s, J8, J7s, 65, 54, 74s, K9, T8 Until you understand more about position and how to interpret the action around the table stick to the Tier 1 & 2 hands. Tier 3 & 4 can be played (carefully) on the cheap if you start to get bored. Until you have more experience and can recognize dominated hands it's better to just stay away from anything lower than that as those hands can be big trouble for a new player. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Nebu on June 10, 2004, 11:43:17 AM Nice links... Thanks!
The copyright info on the Slansky method page was pretty interesting too. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on June 10, 2004, 01:53:10 PM I'd much rather have AQ than AJs in a tight game that does't get tons of callers.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 10, 2004, 08:19:34 PM Haha...I got called a tight player today. I took it as a compliment even though he meant it as an insult. It happened because I told him he made a bad call by calling T5o from the small blind. I was holding A4o at the time and I made the mistake of checking from the big blind instead of raising. The flop came down A24 rainbow, and we both checked (another mistake on my part). The turn was a Q, he checked and I made a pot sized bet which he called. The river came down a 3 and he bet out, I raised, he calls and walks away with my money with his rivered straight.
He then claimed that luck and smarts wins tournaments, not playing tight. I responded by saying maybe smarts will win because smart people generally play tight. He thought his point about luck was proved when he made a marginal call and managed to hit two pair on the flop. The blinds were 100/200 and he limped in and I raised 400 from the small blind with A7o, big blind folded and he called with 56s. The flop came down 5A6 and I bet out, he raised, I went all in, he called and I went out on the bubble. It is people like this that I both love and hate. I love them because 8 times out of 10 they will give you money. I hate them because they like to gloat when they actually win money. This guy made so many bad calls it was amazing he won the tournament. Like calling my all in preflop raise with K7o when I was holding pocket 10's or when he reraised an already big raise with his 8's against the other guys K's and he manages to hit his set on the turn. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 11, 2004, 06:32:17 AM I took the advice of playing in a one table sit and go last night as my first tournament experience. I picked a $10+1 entry because it was the one that was readily available. I played it tight, and made them pay when I had solid hands. After 20 minutes, I found myself 2nd in chips with 3 of 9 already eliminated. At that point, I started to play more aggressively, and almost lost, but I was saved by sucking out a straight on the river when i was holding QJo. In the end, I made it into the money and finished third, which paid $18.
So far, so good. I'm up $40 now after two nights and following the advice of the thread. I'm amazed at how many times people in tournaments get what I call "happy feet" and start making big raises when they have low pocket pairs. I burned two guys doing that last night for big pots. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 11, 2004, 07:30:54 AM When a few people get eliminated try not to play too aggressively. It is ok to be a little more aggressive, but try to keep playing nice and tight until you get to the money. Then you can play even more aggressively than normal.
Remember you want to play to get first place, but you will settle for second or third. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 11, 2004, 07:51:25 AM Yes, I noticed that when we got to 4 players, things got ugly fast. Often people would raise just so the BB wouldn't limp in, even though they had nothing. At three players, when I had the BB, more often than not they folded before the flop. I think more experience will tell me how to deal with the later game because its a lot different than the opening game. I have a feeling that a lot more hands become acceptable plays, but I'm not sure what floats in that scenario just yet.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 11, 2004, 08:07:20 AM 4 handed play usually goes as follows:
Big Stack raises on any marginal hand trying to steal blinds. Middle 2 Stacks will try to avoid the big stack, raise each other and the short stack only when the big stack is not involved. Short Stack is getting attacked by everyone and is usually moving all-in on any hand they decide to play looking to double through. Playing as the big stack and the short stack is easy. Playing a middle stack is tougher as you have to pick your spots more carefully. Attacking the short stack is dangerous knowing they'll move all-in on you and usually have enough chips to put a hurt on you. You also have to go over the top of the big stacks raises often enough where they don't run over you. All of this while also trying to manage your chips so you don't end up out on the bubble. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 11, 2004, 09:06:59 AM Yeah, UD_Delt hit it pretty much right on the nose about 4 handed play. Which is the reason why I love it. I feel very confident going into the final 4 of a table. I do not mind sitting on the short stack at the point and I will often try to push people off their blinds, including the big stack.
In fact if I am the short stack, then alot of times I will directly attack the big stack just because they don't seem to expect it. Plus if the final people at the table know that you normally only play the top hands then they almost always fold when you push all in as the short stack just because they don't want to let you double up. In fact just the other day I went from the short stack during 4 handed play to the winner because I was able to push the middle stacks and the big stacks off the blinds by going all in. Thankfully I was doing it on mostly good hands, but I did bluff them out a few times. And when I finally got called, I had the much better hand. I ended up fairly even with the big stack and then just wore him down. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 11, 2004, 06:50:02 PM Well, today was the worst day ever. I went on tilt on my very first game after my flopped set got busted by rivered flush. Then I couldn't stop myself, I knew I should have stopped playing, but I just couldn't bring myself do to it. I lost just under $200 playing basically nothing but SnGs with $30 going to a large multitable tourney. I ended up losing 13 straight SnG's and never finished higher than 5th.
Some of it was bad plays by me, some of it was being cold decked. The truth of the matter was that I just couldn't catch any cards. I would see the flop with the best hand and have to fold when I didn't hit anything and knew someone else did. I could barely catch a flush or straight draw, but everyone else would hit them with shocking regularity. I think I won maybe 2 or 3 coinflips all day. If I went in with A8 as a short stack, someone would call me with A6 and pull a 6 on the flop (in fact that happened at least 3 times that I remember). It was totally awful, people were calling me with crap and pulling out miracles. I lost sets to a rivered straight at least 5 times, flushes to rivered boats, two pair to rivered straights. If I had AK, I would lose to a small pocket pair. If I had a small pocket pair, I would lose to someone who had AK and flopped an A or K. If I had a better pocket pair, they would catch their set. I really couldn't believe it. I know that I made some bad moves as well, but I honestly don't think I made all that many of them. I wasn't playing too loose or too tight, in fact for the most part I was playing my normal game. I am going to take a break from poker for a little while because of this day. I am sure I will eventually deposit another $100 (haha, probably by the end of the weekend) into stars and try again, but right now I am really frustrated. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on June 12, 2004, 03:17:03 AM I just had a big assraping happen to me on Stars:
PokerStars Game #482659380: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2004/06/12 - 05:48:12 (ET) Table 'Jessonda' Seat #9 is the button Seat 1: elrond1234 ($4.15 in chips) Seat 2: buddah8161 ($25 in chips) Seat 3: SLAMMONE ($5 in chips) Seat 4: pwillc ($11.45 in chips) Seat 5: laceratedsky ($24.75 in chips) Seat 6: skinney ($38 in chips) Seat 7: Hustler Sigs ($18.95 in chips) Seat 8: BiggieBig ($9.25 in chips) Seat 9: orion2527 ($1.50 in chips) elrond1234: posts small blind $0.10 buddah8161: posts big blind $0.25 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to laceratedsky [Qc Qs] SLAMMONE: folds pwillc: folds laceratedsky: raises $1.25 to $1.50 skinney: folds Hustler Sigs: folds BiggieBig: folds orion2527: folds elrond1234: folds buddah8161: raises $1.25 to $2.75 laceratedsky: calls $1.25 *** FLOP *** [Jd 8d Th] buddah8161: bets $5 laceratedsky: calls $5 *** TURN *** [Jd 8d Th] [Jh] buddah8161: bets $5 laceratedsky: calls $5 *** RIVER *** [Jd 8d Th Jh] [Jc] buddah8161: bets $12 laceratedsky: calls $12 and is all-in *** SHOW DOWN *** buddah8161: shows [Ks Kd] (a full house, Jacks full of Kings) laceratedsky: mucks hand buddah8161 collected $47.20 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot $49.60 | Rake $2.40 Board [Jd 8d Th Jh Jc] Seat 1: elrond1234 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 2: buddah8161 (big blind) showed [Ks Kd] and won ($47.20) with a full house, Jacks full of Kings Seat 3: SLAMMONE folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: pwillc folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: laceratedsky mucked [Qc Qs] - a full house, Jacks full of Queens Seat 6: skinney folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: Hustler Sigs folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: BiggieBig folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: orion2527 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Oh the pain. The bloody pain. I should have gotten away from this hand on the Flop, I just couldn't make myself do it. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 14, 2004, 06:29:58 AM That's a hard hand to fold on that flop. I probably would have folded when the second Jack hit on the turn though.
A better player than I would probably fold on the flop given the following reasoning: Assuming the guy played a semi-normal game his pre-flop reraise tells you he has a big hand. After the pot-sized bet on the flop I would narrow his hand down to either A's, K's, the other 2 Q's, J's, 10's or AKd. There's only one hand in that grouping that you are currently beating and one hand that you are tied with. The odds in this case say to fold. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 14, 2004, 06:38:21 AM I learned a $100 lesson this weekend. Don't play while you have been drinking/drunk. I got on tilt and lost my original entry. Lesson learned though, because I ended up placed 2nd and 1st in the next two sit and go's, but I'm still way down. I just have to suck it up and play the way I know I'm supposed to instead of doing stupid things and not walking away. I was first out in one tournament by going all in with suited AK and getting beat by a guy with pocket aces. That's when I went to bed. It was like a kick to the groin with a golf shoe.
Anyhow, sounds like this weekend was a little painful for a couple of us. The Stars must have been lined up wrong. I'm chalking the original $100 up to newbie jitters and playing from ground zero again to keep my sanity in check. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Madman on June 14, 2004, 08:53:19 AM Yeah, never play drunk. I just can't play cards while drunk and it doesn't matter if it is blackjack at the casinos, hold em on the net or just a friendly mixed house game. I just can't concentrate on the cards and end up doing stupid things.
I did find out a little over a week ago that I both can and can't play while stoned. It was weird, one day I was stoned and I couldn't play, the next day I was stoned and I was in the money in like 5-6 straight SnG's. Maybe it just depends on how stoned I feel and what I feel like doing. Maybe I just couldn't get any cards on the day I didn't play well, but I think that I mainly couldn't concentrate enough to make the right moves. The next day when I got stoned, I couldn't do anything BUT concentrate on the cards and I was making all sorts of correct moves. Plus I was really really relaxed that day so I didn't get upset if I got pushed off a good hand or got sucked out, I just rolled with it and moved to the next hand. As for my major tilt, it was awful and I still haven't bought back in yet. Just as an example of both my tilt and the fact that I couldn't catch any cards, I will tell you what happened in one of the SnG's. It was already pretty late in my bad run and by this point I had decided that I was either going to get back to my original buy in or lose it all, so I wasn't completely concerned if I made the correct move. Anyway, it was the first hand of an SnG and I am on the button, I pick up AKo and everyone folds around to me. Now I am thinking to myself 'I am in the midst of a bad run, I don't really care what happens and I want to see just how bad my luck really is today', so I push all in. I figured that both blinds would fold seeing as it is the first hand of the SnG and if one of them didn't then I would either quickly double up, or more than likely prove my luck was horrible that day. Sure enough the small blind folds, then the big blind sits there and thinks about it for a little bit and then he calls me. He flips over a pair of 5's and the flop comes down with a blank and a pair of 4's, the turn and river don't help me at all and I go out on the very first hand. That is pretty much how every coinflip went for me that day. And before anyone starts in on how it was stupid to go all in on the first hand, I already know that. I didn't care at that point whether it was stupid or not, I just wanted to see what would happen. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on June 14, 2004, 02:13:57 PM Pig,
That is indeed a tough beat, but if you are tied to your queens, you need to at least raise him on that flop (if not push) as you have the draw to the straight and your queens may in fact be good (I could put him on AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ, JJ, half of which you are beating and all of them you have outs against). You will also get that overpair to fold a good chunk of the time if he doesn't have a diamond. Just calling down is no good. I'd raise it another 5, fold to a reraise and if called either bet big on the turn or go for the free river depending upon the player, the turn card and his action. Calling it down all the way is way too weak. (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know). BTW, I'm pretty much exclusively playing 1-table SnGs at Party these days (20 & 30) as doing very well. Up over $1200 in the last week and a half. I play under AleHonde if you see me there say hello. Seems like many of you play at Stars. I transferred over some of my roll to try it out because of the big 25% bonus they advertised and couldn't win to save my life. Not a huge sample, but I got frustrated and am back at Party now. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on June 14, 2004, 05:20:07 PM For me Stars is just a micro limit heaven for learning new games. Omaha 8 and Stud 8. I much prefer their Tournament structure, and really dig their low buy in 2 table Sit n Gos. Party is where the money is, Stars is where you improve your tournament game.
Ab, you need to give me some Sit N Go lessons. For whatever reason, I cannot seem to win consistently even at the $5 + $1 level at Party. I'll definitely be looking for you in the next couple of weeks so I can observe your play a bit. In other news, I have been cleaning up in the $25 buy in NL Ring Games at Party. I usually only play one table because I feel I need to concentrate more with No Limit. I won $60 at one table yesterday in about 90 minutes. I know it won't last, but I am in desperation mode to increase my bankroll before Vegas. As always you can check my progres at my blog, http://www.wtfman.com/poker Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on June 14, 2004, 07:47:20 PM Just put AleHonde on your buddy list and search for me. I'd be happy to talk to you about my play. I'm no expert, but I've been doing pretty well, at least at the Party SnG tables. I'm in the money around 43 percent with a pretty good percentage of firsts.
The 1-table touney forum on twoplustwo.com is pretty good too. Search for a couple of posts called "winning the 10+1 at Party." Has some golden info in there that should be applicable to PStars as well. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on June 14, 2004, 09:21:28 PM This game is funny. Here are two consecutive hands in a $20 SnG with 4 players remaining:
***** Hand History for Game 675870760 ***** Doc finished in fifth place. 200/400 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4197121) - Tue Jun 15 00:08:39 EDT 2004 Table Table 14009 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button Total number of players : 4 Seat 4: monmouth (505) Seat 6: snapj (1970) Seat 8: arodsgay (4513) Seat 9: AleHonde (1012) monmouth posts small blind (100) snapj posts big blind (200) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to AleHonde [ Th, Td ] arodsgay folds. AleHonde: nh arodsgay: ty AleHonde raises (1012) to 1012 AleHonde is all-In. monmouth calls (405) monmouth is all-In. snapj folds. ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jh, Js, Kc ] ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kh ] ** Dealing River ** : [ Ad ] Creating Main Pot with $1210 with monmouth Creating Side Pot 1 with $507 with AleHonde ** Summary ** Main Pot: 1210 | Side Pot 1: 507 Board: [ Jh Js Kc Kh Ad ] monmouth balance 605, bet 505, collected 605, net +100 [ 8c 8d ] [ two pairs, kings and jacks -- Ad,Kc,Kh,Jh,Js ] snapj balance 1770, lost 200 (folded) arodsgay balance 4513, didn't bet (folded) AleHonde balance 1112, bet 1012, collected 1112, net +100 [ Th Td ] [ two pairs, kings and jacks -- Ad,Kc,Kh,Jh,Js ] ***** Hand History for Game 675872120 ***** AleHonde: gah 200/400 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 4197121) - Tue Jun 15 00:09:07 EDT 2004 Table Table 14009 (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button Total number of players : 4 Seat 4: monmouth (605) Seat 6: snapj (1770) Seat 8: arodsgay (4513) Seat 9: AleHonde (1112) snapj posts small blind (100) arodsgay posts big blind (200) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to AleHonde [ As, Ac ] AleHonde raises (1112) to 1112 AleHonde is all-In. monmouth folds. snapj folds. arodsgay calls (912) ** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, Jd, Tc ] ** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3c ] ** Dealing River ** : [ 6d ] AleHonde: bah Creating Main Pot with $2324 with AleHonde ** Summary ** Main Pot: 2324 | Board: [ 8c Jd Tc 3c 6d ] monmouth balance 605, didn't bet (folded) snapj balance 1670, lost 100 (folded) arodsgay balance 5725, bet 1112, collected 2324, net +1212 [ Ts Th ] [ three of a kind, tens -- Jd,Ts,Th,Tc,8c ] AleHonde balance 0, lost 1112 [ As Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- As,Ac,Jd,Tc,8c ] Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on June 14, 2004, 11:44:09 PM Actually, that post you mentioned on 2+2 I have marked as a favorite. I've only played a couple Sit N Gos since reading it, but I did finish second in one.
I get on the bubble all the time, but it always seems like I do it with a short stack, and miss opportunities to double up, so I am blinded off like a chump :( It seems as though most of my bigger wins in tournament play come from playing a BB hand cheaply and catching the flop. Also, in the mail today I got Super System and Championship No-Limit and Pot-Limit Hold 'em. Hopefully they will help me out a bit. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on June 15, 2004, 06:40:11 AM I also have a problem with Party's format for single table S&Go's but I do really well with them at Stars. I think at Party I was only around 35% in the money and at Stars I'm around 48% in the money at the $5.50's and 43% in the money at the $10+1's. I still need to play more of the $11's though as my sample size is still pretty small (around 25). I've played over 100 of the $5.50's though so I'm pretty confident with those results.
I play them both about the same but with how fast the blinds increase at Party and the shorter stacks you have no room to maneuver at the higher levels. I typically only play Tier 1 & 2 hands until the 4th level (50/100) but when I get those hands I play them very aggressively. Most of the time that usually means I fold my way into the 4th level. At Stars that leaves me with about $1200-$1300 in chips which is more than enough to start stealing blinds and moving people off of hands. By this time I've also established a very tight image. I can usually manage to work my stack up regardless of what cards I get by picking the right times to make large bluffs and push people off their hands. At Party you are usually left with $500-$600 which means you are going to get called down by the bigger stacks much more often. With that short of a stack, image really doesn't matter because most of the time they're getting the right odds to call the short stack anyway. This means you have to catch cards in the later levels in order to make it into the money. If you don't get any of your hands to hold up you're out before the money. I have noticed that the players at Party are much worse than Stars but I still haven't figured out how to beat them consistently which is just sad.... Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on June 15, 2004, 07:20:33 AM I've found that playing stack size at Party is the key. You almost don't need to look at your cards sometimes. Use the first 3 levels to really focus in on your opponants' tendencies and pound premium hands. Hopefully you will have a medium/large stack when the blinds go up because of morons calling you with crap, but even with a small stack, you can really do damage if you have identified tendencies and can bet accordingly. I make most of my money in these games stealing/pushing people around, even with a smallish to medium stack. Bubble play is the key and being ultra agressive will usually get you in the money. You bust out 4th a lot, but if you don't, you take control of the table and finish first a good chunk of the time.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on June 15, 2004, 12:04:59 PM I've decided that I'm going to keep a much more controlled focus on my sit n' go play, so I've started keeping a journal now on my take, playstyle, and general demeanor. I also keep tabs of big hands and key players so that I know how to get away with more and play better. It's helping me a lot. I finished 1, 2, 4, 4, and 5 in my last 5 tourneys, which netted me a $10 up for the night. I find that keeping tabs helps keep me focused on improving my game instead of just half-assing it.
Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on June 15, 2004, 04:32:21 PM Started readin Super System yesterday. Doyle, ever so eloquently, convinced me that I am a big pussy. So I got aggressive today, betting out pot sized bets instead of min raising, taking stabs at pots when I think no one has anything. It went pretty well. I placed 1st and 3rd out of 4 Sit n Gos I played today. Which netted me about $13 in winnings today.
I played 2 $5 + $1 Sit n Gos on Party and 2 $5 + $.50 Sit n Gos on Stars. I did terribly on Stars, one of the tournies was a 2 table SnG and I busted out in 15th on a terrible beat. The other one I got pot comitted when I essentially had nothing and got beat. Party players are just plain terrible, I think it's easier to push them around due to the small stack sizes. When 150 Pot bet is 1/8th of your stack people think twice about calling and you can pick up some pretty decent pots just by being aggressive. It's amazing. Of course this play can also backfire and put you in an inescapable hole. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on June 16, 2004, 12:30:02 AM The advice in Championship Pot-Limit and No-Limit is basically bet at least the pot or don't bother.
I don't get when people make minimum bets into a large pot. There are usually three possibilities: 1. They have nothing, and hope you will fold. But the bet is too small to fold to. 2. They have something and are "suckering" you...but for a bet that small being "suckered" by it barely matters. 3. They are faking weakness so you will re-raise them. The third is pretty rare. After the flop if I am going to bet I basically always bet about the pot. On the turn and river I may slow down though. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on June 16, 2004, 09:28:23 AM Quote So I got aggressive today, betting out pot sized bets instead of min raising, taking stabs at pots when I think no one has anything. Haven't read Super/System yet (just got my autographed copy of WLLH from PokerStars last night...woohoo!). but somewhere along the line I developed this playstyle. A friend of mine who was reading S/S a couple of weeks ago paid me a compliment by saying that I played A LOT like Doyle espouses. Unfortunately, it only works against decent players (good players will occasionally reraise you back to see how you react), or bad weak-tight players. The average jackass at Party will call you down with their 3rd pair, bad kicker and beat your bluff a lot. I have found that it is better to value bet your good hands at Party to the max and to only bluff at pots when you have a good read on the table and realize that the pot is there for the taking. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on June 16, 2004, 10:58:41 AM Quote I have found that it is better to value bet your good hands at Party to the max and to only bluff at pots when you have a good read on the table and realize that the pot is there for the taking. This is very good advice. To bluff you need few players, a relatively small pot, be first in and bet at least the pot. (This doesn't apply once you get down to the bubble as you need to do it a lot more). Value betting will get you much further against the dopes than bluffing. Title: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Pig Destroyer on June 30, 2004, 06:59:24 PM Just wanted to let you guys know, there is a Poker Forum on http://www.wtfman.com now. Figured there would be some interest as we've had this thread running off and on for about a year.
The forums are at http://forums.wtfman.com. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on February 21, 2005, 09:53:56 AM Necro post alert! Just wanted to see who was still playing, and how things are going. We really should set up a time for us all to sit down in a low buy in SnG on Pokerstars one of these days.
I also wanted to pass along the following hand for sheer amazement. Early in a $5.50 SnG- I have won several small pots, so am sitting at about t2750 with the blinds at 15/30. It is folded to me in middle position. I have Ad Td, so I raise it to 90, and get 2 callers (button and BB). Flop is 7d 8d 9d. As I try to figure out how to play it to get the most cash, BB goes all in for 560 ahead of me. I hem and haw for a minute (praying I can get the button to come along), and reluctantly call. BB turns over Tc 7c for bottom pair! Turn Th. River Ts, and I lose a big pot. Just for edification- I ran this through twodimes.net, and I am should win this hand 97.58% of the time. For the record, I ended up in a tailspin and was the first to wash out of the final table (2 table SnG). Bugger me with a fish fork. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on February 21, 2005, 12:56:38 PM I'm currently in the middle of an experiment - grinding my way up from $1. Right now I have about $30. It's tedious as hell but good for solidifying my game.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on February 21, 2005, 01:13:35 PM I've pretty much given up online play after a series of ups and downs. In reality the game takes a lot more effort and time than I'm willing to put into it. I still play live games for fun, but not for money anymore.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 21, 2005, 01:21:18 PM I'm still at it. After an amazing December (top 25 MTT player on Empire for the month, inluding coming within one hand of a WSOP seat) and absolutely horrible January (1 cash) I have quit playing multi-table tourneys. The all or nothing deal was too frustrating.
I've worked my bankroll up to where I am now 3 or 4 tabling 10/20 full ring games. If I can hack it up here for another month I am going to jump up to the 15/30 games which is where the real money is. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on February 21, 2005, 01:57:45 PM Why is 15/30 a big step up from 10/20. Different breed of player?
I almost won a place at the WPT Aruba at PokerStars. Man it sucks to get that far and then miss. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 21, 2005, 02:05:27 PM It's not a big step, but I'm very conservative with my bankroll requirements because I want to avoid risk of ruin. I'm currently playing with a 650BB bankroll and still don't feel all that comfortable. I've also found that agression goes up more than proportionally to the limits (i.e. 10/20 is about 3x as agressive as 5/10) so I want to get my uber-agressive game into shape. You really don't have the 7 fish seeing the flop for 1 bet and calling down with crap type games up there like you do in the lower limits. I'm currently pulling 1.7BB/100 hands in the 10/20. If I can get that up to at least 2 I will feel better about moving up.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on February 21, 2005, 02:11:55 PM At what level did you start your bankroll? Have you worked it up from penny ante stuff, or did you dump a couple grand in to start?
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 21, 2005, 02:17:31 PM Built it. I started out with 500 bucks, playing mostly 2/4. When I built that up to around 1500 I chashed out the original 500 and been building up the rest since then. Played about 35k hands at 2/4, 35k hands at 3/6, 20k hands at 5/10 (didn't like that level) and am at around 15k so far in 10/20. So my bankroll is all winnings from ring games (my MTT money about broke even), plus bonuses and rakeback. If you don't have a rakeback deal, you are really hurting yourself.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Jamiko on February 21, 2005, 07:08:51 PM I tried reading the whole thread but I may have missed a few posts. Is there somewhere in here that has a recommended start for a new person?
I've been interested in playing for a while but I need to start from the beginning. A book or some software to start with perhaps? I need something to get my feet wet and not make a fool of myself right off the bat. I watch the TV shows off and on but assume we are missing a good portion of the games. A lot of the stuff you guys are talking about are terms I am not used to hearing so I'm not sure where to begin. Any help is appreciated. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 21, 2005, 07:40:48 PM As far as books, I would start with Sklansky and Malmuth's Theory of Poker and then Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold 'Em.
You can also get your feet wet by reading the boards over at www.twoplustwo.com. EDIT: Actually Sklasky's Hold 'Em Poker is probably a better start than Theory of Poker which should come later. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: DarkDryad on February 22, 2005, 07:49:59 AM So what did we decide on about getting together an F13 tourney? I have to find some way to get cash into my account as my credit card wont do it anymore.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on February 22, 2005, 09:18:05 AM As for beginner books- I would suggest Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker and maybe Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em (it is pretty weak tight, but beginners are better off playing as tight as possible). Once you have handle on the concepts of those books, move on to Sklansky's Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players and Theory of Poker. I would save Ed Miller's book (Small Stakes Hold 'Em) for last- it deals with a lot of aggressive postflop tactics that will get a new player KILLED if they misapply them. However, once you have the technical skills to really understand it, it is a GOLDMINE.
I play exclusively at Pokerstars (Party Poker's CS pissed me off and will never see another dime of my money), so any tournament we play needs to be there if I am to participate. I am available most evening at or around 6pm PST. The closer to 6 the better- the later it gets, the higher the likelihood that I get sucked into WoW for the night :-P For funding accounts- I recommend using Neteller (http://www.neteller.com/ab/). Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on February 22, 2005, 01:00:06 PM I agree with Way's book advice. I'd study Jones and play poker until you can apply it in your sleep. Once you can really explain to yourself why you make every decision in Jones' terms, then it's time to read Sklansky's Advanced Players book and Ed Miller's low limit book. Jumping right to Sklansky will probably overwhelm you, and jumping right to Miller will probably reinforce all sorts of bad instincts most new players have.
I play at PP sometimes, but I get bored playing online. I also play worse online, probably because of #1. I play live every chance I get though, which is about once a month. I am, at best, a very average player. But that's all you need to be in a room full of utter morons. And just about every poker room right now is. The quality of play has taken a nosedive in the 5 or so years I have been playing. I thank ESPN for that :) Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on February 22, 2005, 01:41:10 PM If you want to get good, and I mean really good, you have to invest in books that will teach you where your leaks are and software that will let you analyze hands you fucked up. Also, analyze what games you did well in and why. Was it strategy? Was it the players? Was it luck? Also, remember that hold'em requires a lot of study to become great at it, and you will lose money learning while you do that. If you expect quick returns, don't bother.
I really couldn't hack it anymore in the online games because I too got really bored, but there is a lot of money there for the taking. If you put some time into it you'll realize within a few months if you are any good. However, if you aren't, and you don't have the analytical mind for it, walk away. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on February 22, 2005, 01:46:14 PM Quote software that will let you analyze hands you fucked up. PokerTracker (http://www.pokertracker.com/). If you play online Hold 'Em and don't use this, you are not playing optimally. It is a fantastic tool for organizing all your hand histories so you can analyze your own play, and is even more useful in reminding you how your opponents play. Knowing whether that UTG raiser plays 50% of pots of 10% of pots is quite useful when you are trying to figure out whether to fold or reraise (coldcalling is usually the worst option). Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2005, 08:34:12 PM Well, here's a fun story.
I was left with $37.50 in my partypoker account. So I took all of it over into a 3-table NL SnG looking for a big score. It was going to be a win or go home kind of affair. I started the game at 9. Two hours and thirty minutes later I bust out to a river suckout in 3rd place out of 30 people. It was a $180 payoff, which is nice. So, I guess I'm semi-back in the game. Really, the reason I did so well was that I rode out the early rounds playing almost nothing. I only won two hands in the first hour, but they were both huge. One was a rockets all-in that busted out a guy and doubled me up basically. The other was another all-in A9 v. AT post flop when A98 rainbow was already on the board. So, I played them well. I lost with a hand of 88 vs. A7o when he caught an ace on the river. My luck ran out. So be it, I'll take my 6x winnings and enjoy it :) Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on February 28, 2005, 10:09:47 AM Quote Really, the reason I did so well was that I rode out the early rounds playing almost nothing. That is the way to do well in most SnGs. Don't get overly involved in any pots unless you have a HUGE hand early- some jackass will always call a 4bb bet with 74o and catch two pair to beat your TPTK and cost you a good bit of your stack before you figure out you are in trouble. I had a good weekend overall- picked up about 60bbs playing 1/2, and won a $5 SnG. Got to heads up about even, and played for like 30 minutes. I have never been in a heads up battle anywhere near that long. He was easy to read; I just couldn't pick up any hands when he was in the pot (he wouldn't bet without at least a pair-until the last hand!). Finally was dealt T6s in my bb- opponent limped, I checked, and we saw the flop. Txx 2 of my suit. Opponent shoves, I call, he is bluffing with K7o. I dodge the turn and river and finally get out of there with first place. Exhausting, and it was for peanuts! Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Rasix on February 28, 2005, 10:12:55 AM Well, I'm going to be in Vegas on Friday. I haven't played in a long while. I'm going to get mauled.
This will be very fun. Hopefully I can find some tournies that have buyins under a hundred because I really blow chunks at ring games. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 28, 2005, 05:11:34 PM I had a fun weekend dropping 3 grand. Weeeeeeeeee!
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: schild on February 28, 2005, 06:20:32 PM I had a fun weekend dropping 3 grand. Weeeeeeeeee! Well, cough up. How'd it go? I don't post in this thread but I love reading about it.Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 28, 2005, 06:35:25 PM Just a real shitty run of suckouts combined with me trying to ramp up my aggression, plus a bit of tilt/steaming combined for the worst stretch of my poker career. I've dropped back down to 5/10 to try to evaluate my game and get my head back together.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on February 28, 2005, 09:18:55 PM I found that a good break away from the tables helped me really reevaluate the way I play the game, Ab. I'm certainly not on the stakes you are, and I generally prefer a $30 buy-in MT SnG, but I found that taking a few weeks off was good. I spent one week entirely without. One week on just reading. And then the third week I played every other day. It helped me settle down my aggressiveness that was killing my game. And by that I mean being aggressive in the wrong places at the wrong positions.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 28, 2005, 09:29:11 PM I'm confident enough in my game that I won't need that kind of break. Just need to get back to some basics. I think the jump up to 10/20 and my initial very good success there went to my head a bit and I thought I was "KING OF THE WORLD" and could push people around. I got read as overly agressive and got the crap checkraised out of me if they had the goods and folded to if they didn't. This equaled small pots I won and large pots I lost. Not a good combo.
I'm up 50BB at the 5/10 for yesterday and today (which is a hot streak, but I'll take it). Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on February 28, 2005, 09:31:25 PM Well if $3k doesn't discourage you, you're a better man than I. Have fun with it man, and if you make it to the WSOP, make sure you let us know.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on February 28, 2005, 09:34:28 PM 3k is a downswing, but it's not that far outside the standard deviation for those limits on multiple tables even if I wasn't playing bad (which I was for part of it, although probably 85% of it was good play/bad results).
I wanted to mention that there is a great, free add-on to pokertracker called Gametime which displays people's stats right under their names as well as table averages. On party skins, you can set it up so PT imports your stats every 2 minutes and you basically have real time data on people's play. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on February 28, 2005, 11:04:30 PM I try not to rely on computerized notes of other players, because I want to build up my memory so I can play live games. I think the best strategy for that is just remember 1 or 2 hands that each player played that epitomizes them.
--- I find it's important to understand what a table thinks of you and act accordingly. Sometimes I might be on a streak where I raise pre-flop with a good hand, then end up folding. Do that a few times in a row and people starting thinking I'm raising with nothing. What you are seeing from your own play may be very different than what other people see you doing. Usually if you do that sort of thing players will assume you are raising with nothing and a weak-tight player and start trying to steal from you, which is great if you really are raising with good hands. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 01, 2005, 09:07:41 AM Quote I try not to rely on computerized notes of other players, because I want to build up my memory so I can play live games. I think the best strategy for that is just remember 1 or 2 hands that each player played that epitomizes them. IMHO that is not an optimal strategy. Players come and go so often on online tables that it is almost impossible to come up with any read on them without copious notes. If the information is there, not using it seems counterproductive to me. Playing live is MUCH different- you get to see faces, the pace is MUCH slower, and the players don't change nearly as often. After an hour at a B&M table (30-40 hands), I usually have a pretty good handle on how everyone plays. 30-40 hands happens in about 30 minutes online, and the you might get 3 new players to the table in that time. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 01, 2005, 10:00:13 AM Have you tried Gametime Way?
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 01, 2005, 10:13:45 AM Not yet...I just read about it last week. I didn't realize it was a PT addon. I might have to give it a try. How does it work with Pokerstars? Is it tweakable for each site?
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on March 01, 2005, 11:38:53 AM I keep notes on online players, because you are right they do turn over too fast and you can't see faces at all. But I don't use any 3rd party stuff that does stat tracking on other people. To me that's giong to far down that road and I don't want to develop a crutch.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 01, 2005, 04:26:11 PM I believe it works on pokerstars but I haven't tried it there. Check out the pockertracker forums. There is a sticky thread there that will direct you to the Gametime download and forums.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 09, 2005, 12:53:33 PM I have been using Gametime for about a week now. At first I hated the cluttered look of the screen, but I love it now- I can play 4 tables without having to poke around for PT windows for each table. My usual setup is 3 tables- 2 ring games, a SnG, and 1/4 of my screen for browsing, IMs, iTunes, etc. Works quite well.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on March 14, 2005, 11:42:52 AM I've been playing in weekly live games with a pretty stable group over the last year.
It started out pretty easy for me, but over time the other players have learned my tendencies. It has gotten tough to consistently win because to do so requires constant shifting of strategies and aggression levels. It's really addictive, and I've had to do a lot of studying and soul-searching to get better. There's nothing like that drive home at 2 am on a work night after busting out to really make you think. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on March 14, 2005, 01:57:33 PM Has anyone here used Poker Office? I downloaded the trial and it seems pretty nice. I don't really play online often enough to justify buying it. Though I probably will anyway :-o
I just wish DC, MD or VA would legalize this before the fad passes and all the players worse than me stop playing. I do so very love playing live. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 15, 2005, 10:10:28 AM Just wanted to mention- if anyone is in the mood to play on Pokerstars, they are running a deposit bonus through St. Patrick's Day. 20% addon to your deposit up to $120 (for a $600 deposit). Details are here (http://www.pokerstars.com/depositbonus20.html).
The best part about Stars bonuses is that they do not expire- once you qualify, you can take your sweet time earning the FPP required. Well worth it if you are interested in the best tourney site on the 'net. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 15, 2005, 12:46:33 PM I'm about to quit for a while. I keep having these 150 BB downswings, followed by 150 BB upswings. I don't know if it is my game or what but it is highly annoying.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Bunk on March 18, 2005, 10:35:08 AM Just got back from a week in Vegas on business, so I thought I'd share my poker experiences.
Played a couple nights of 2-4 holdem just to pass some time. Hit a hot streak the first night, was up $140 after hitting a set three times in six hands. Next night I was just playing to drink cheap and dropped $60 of that. No biggie, I'm enjoying myself. So the last free night I have comes around, its about 11:00 and I start looking for a poker room around Ceaser's. They don't have one, so I head across the street to the Flamingo. I was hoping to play 4-8 or even 6-12, so as to get a little skill involved as opposed to the 2-4 family pots I'd been playing. The only thing they have above 2-4 available is no limit... I figured they would want some huge buyin, but they didn't. Minimum was only $40. So I figured, I can blow $100 and still be about even for the trip, so I buy $100 in chips and sit down. Went up and down for an hour and a half, almost walked away up $80, but kept going. At two hours I was sitting around $120 when I was dealt pocket Queens. Wish I could remember exactly what possition I was in, but the hand went something like this: Five players stayed in pre flop, at about $10 each. Flop comes up 8 8 4 rainbow. There was a bit of betting around, and the pot got up over $100, so I got brave and tried chasing some people off with a raise to $50. In hindsite it seemed a foolish bet, but oh well. Two people called the bet. Turn hits a Queen, giving me Qs over 8s. Im fighting back the urge to start drooling. Both people in front of me go all in... I shove all my chips in in a heartbeat. First guy turns over A A, second person turns over an 8 and something. River didn't hit anyone. Pot was $390. All total, I finished up $350 for the weekend. Not big money for some of you Lawyer types, but that was by far the most I've ever walked away with playing Poker. Bonus story: I put $20 in a video poker machine at the airport waiting for my flight home. Played $.50 per spin for about 15 minutes until I was down to $1.50. Hit max bet then (5 quarters) and hit nothing. So I bet the last quarter in the machine and hit a pair of twos. This was one of those machines that pays extra for low four of a kinds, so I held the twos and hit drwa. Hit four 2s... Payout was 160 to 1, or $40. Would have been $200 if I'd hit it the spin before, but I'm not complaining. Oh and I got to see Seinfeld do standup for free as well through work. Was a good week in Vegas. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: schild on March 18, 2005, 10:35:49 AM Oh and I got to see Seinfeld do standup for free as well through work. Your week was better than mine. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 18, 2005, 10:55:01 AM Quote Pot was $390. All total, I finished up $350 for the weekend. Not big money for some of you Lawyer types, but that was by far the most I've ever walked away with playing Poker. Nice pot! That is bigger than any cash pot I have ever won (won a few tourneys that pay more, but those are a different animal). Best night I ever had live was playing 4/8- walked out with +$476. The deck hit me in the face all damned night; 'twas a beautiful thing. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on March 29, 2005, 11:12:03 PM Just bumping this as 2+2 seem to be coming out with a new begginers' book called "Getting Started In Hold'Em" by Ed Miller which should hit shelves soon since some have asked for books for people just getting started.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on March 30, 2005, 09:21:07 AM I put in a pre-order. Never hurts to read more poker books, and I really like the way Ed Miller thinks.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 01, 2005, 09:56:53 AM Any more thought into getting together for a cheap SnG? If we pick a time, we can all jump into the next available one and play together. Any/all of you who play at Pokerstars let me know and we can get something set up. Should be fun!
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 07, 2005, 12:12:04 PM FYI... If anyone has an Empire Poker account there is a 25% up to $150 deposit bonus going on. 7x bonus playthrough to clear.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: El Gallo on April 07, 2005, 05:49:03 PM Any more thought into getting together for a cheap SnG? If we pick a time, we can all jump into the next available one and play together. Any/all of you who play at Pokerstars let me know and we can get something set up. Should be fun! I'd play if you got a group together. I have only ever played at Party, so I'd have to get an account over there. I also suck no limit play, so I should be some nice dead money for ya! Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: FMR on April 08, 2005, 12:39:08 AM Way,
You know I'm game, anything to take a break from WOW, while also losing $$...sounds ideal. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 08, 2005, 09:23:23 AM Ok I love Party and skins...
Playing last night on Empire (.50/1 limit) to try and clear out the raked hands and had the following hand come up. I'm in the BB w/ Jh8s. 3 callers and I check. 4 to the flop of Qh 10h 9h I flop a straight as well as a straigh flush draw. Betting comes out heavy with 2 bets when it gets to me. I'm thinking I probably have the best hand at the moment but am slightly afraid of the made flush. I call the 2 cold but it's reraised and eventually capped which I call. We lose one player so 3 of us to the turn. Turn is the Kh filling my straight flush. I call all turn bets afraid to scare anyone off and the betting is capped anyway. Finally on the river I throw out a raise and betting is capped again. One guy has the Ah and the other has 8h. Never once did either of them consider slowing down... The guy with Ah leaves immedialy but the 8h guy stats and is playing like an absolute maniac. He is catching amazingly as he's running over the table and turns his remaining $8 into over $50. Fortunately he paid me off a few more times as he couldn't figure out when to slow down and I managed to win around 45BB in 30 minutes. Fortunately that more than covered my other table where everyone was taking turns cracking my high pocket pairs... Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on April 18, 2005, 10:39:55 PM I have to post this hand that came in a $10 sit and go. I'm Hurtbig. I've never seen a hand like this on the flop.
***** Hand History for Game 1917105899 ***** 50/100 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 11429533) - Tue Apr 19 01:21:14 EDT 2005 Table Table 11587 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button Total number of players : 6 Seat 5: Djnomis (330) Seat 6: BadGolfer105 (2645) Seat 7: Hurtbig (1805) Seat 8: SNOWY222 (2030) Seat 9: pingpongclay (775) Seat 10: rherr (415) Djnomis posts small blind (25) BadGolfer105 posts big blind (50) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to Hurtbig [ 6d, Ad ] SNOWY222: ehhhh Hurtbig calls (50) SNOWY222: lol SNOWY222 folds. pingpongclay calls (50) rherr folds. BadGolfer105: u scared me Djnomis calls (25) BadGolfer105 checks. ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ah, As, Ac ] Djnomis checks. BadGolfer105 checks. SNOWY222: i had better hand...sort a Hurtbig checks. BadGolfer105: u did pingpongclay checks. ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ] Djnomis checks. BadGolfer105 checks. Hurtbig checks. pingpongclay bets (85) SNOWY222: just couldnt pull Djnomis folds. BadGolfer105 folds. Hurtbig calls (85) ** Dealing River ** : [ 5c ] BadGolfer105: story of my poker life lol Hurtbig bets (1670) Hurtbig is all-In. SNOWY222: u too? pingpongclay calls (640) pingpongclay is all-In. Creating Main Pot with $1650 with pingpongclay Creating Side Pot 1 with $1030 with Hurtbig ** Summary ** Main Pot: 1650 | Side Pot 1: 1030 Board: [ Ah As Ac Ks 5c ] Djnomis balance 280, lost 50 (folded) BadGolfer105 balance 2595, lost 50 (folded) Hurtbig balance 2680, bet 1805, collected 2680, net +875 [ 6d Ad ] [ four of a kind, aces -- Ad,Ah,As,Ac,Ks ] SNOWY222 balance 2030, didn't bet (folded) pingpongclay balance 0, lost 775 [ Js Kc ] [ a full house, Aces full of kings -- Ah,As,Ac,Kc,Ks ] rherr balance 415, didn't bet (folded) Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 18, 2005, 10:43:12 PM Nice hand. Fold preflop.
I'm currently on poker hiatus for 30 days as I had a bad run and got real tilty, so I'm not playing until after finals. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on April 18, 2005, 11:12:52 PM It's probably not good in the long run to play A6s, but I like playing Ax when they are suited. It's probably a drain, but I usually take a look at the flop (if cheap) to see if i can pick up the nut flush. I feel like the implied odds are pretty good. If I have a small chance of picking up the Ace flush X a big payoff, then it helps me stick around.
I usually quickly fold post flop, even if I hit the ace, when someone comes out betting. That kicker is a killer. I can only imagine how sick i would feel if I threw that hand away and missed 4 aces. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 18, 2005, 11:41:07 PM That hand played UTG with a limp in a tourney (even a SnG) is a recipe for disaster. Only time I am playing it is a free flop from the blind or when folded to on the button durring the bubble (in which case I am likely pushing). Just too many ways to make second best hand or a monster draw and convince youself to put all your chips out there. Also a high chance of being raised after the limp that you can't call, thereby pissing away chips.
EDIT: BTW, your odds of flopping the nut flush are 118-1 and making one by river are 15-1. It's unlikey you will ever get pot odds to match that. You could possibly get correct odds if you flop a 4-flush and someone goes all-in before you and someone calls, however, it isn't too wise to bet your tourney life on a draw that may not even be the nuts as flop all-ins may include hands drawing to the boat. Overall, not a good hand until very late in the tourney and under very limited circumstances. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on April 19, 2005, 08:01:19 AM And that's why poker is hard. Sometimes your best played hands have the worst results and vice versa.
Thanks for the pointers. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 20, 2005, 07:28:56 AM I disagree slightly with Abagadro. It all depends on the texture of the table you're at. If it's a very limpy table in general and there aren't too many pre-flop raises then I think it's just fine to limp in from anywhere with a lot of speculative hands like suited A's, suited connectors, and small pocket pairs. In the $10 sit-and-go's the implied odds of those hands are huge if you make your hand. They are also fairly easy hands to play post flop. You either make your hand or a draw or fold. You just have to be able to get away from the top pair, no-kicker hands with the suited A's. Those hands can definately be trouble.
And of course it all holds true whenever you have the "should I play this hand from this position" question... The answer is always "it depends". Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on April 20, 2005, 09:48:45 AM Couple of hand histories with lessons behind them-
Lesson #1- slowplaying often backfires- Quote PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter UTG (t8665) Button (t5380) Hero (t8135) BB (t4820) Preflop: Hero is SB with Kh, Jh. 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks. Flop: (t375) Kc, 4h, 3h (2 players) Hero checks, BB bets t400, Hero calls t400. Turn: (t1175) 9h (2 players) Hero checks, BB bets t400, Hero calls t400. River: (t1975) 3d (2 players) Hero bets t1000, BB raises to t2200, Hero calls t1200. Final Pot: t6375 Results below: Hero has Kh Jh (flush, king high). BB has 3c 9s (full house, threes full of nines). Outcome: BB wins t6375. Lesson 2- Sometimes your opponent is a dumbass and will call a big bet with a 2 out draw. And hit it. Quote PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (7 handed) converter SB (t5935) Hero (t2150) UTG (t5285) MP1 (t3340) MP2 (t4375) CO (t2905) Button (t3010) Preflop: Hero is BB with Th, Kd. 5 folds, SB completes, Hero checks. Flop: (t400) 2c, 6d, Kh (2 players) SB checks, Hero bets t400, SB calls t400. Turn: (t1200) 6c (2 players) SB bets t200, Hero raises to t800, SB calls t600. River: (t2800) 2d (2 players) SB bets t800, Hero calls t750 (All-In). Final Pot: t4350 Results below: SB has 4d 2h (full house, twos full of sixes). Hero has Th Kd (two pair, kings and sixes). Outcome: SB wins t4350. Life is fair. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on April 20, 2005, 09:55:26 AM I disagree slightly with Abagadro. It all depends on the texture of the table you're at. If it's a very limpy table in general and there aren't too many pre-flop raises then I think it's just fine to limp in from anywhere with a lot of speculative hands like suited A's, suited connectors, and small pocket pairs. In the $10 sit-and-go's the implied odds of those hands are huge if you make your hand. They are also fairly easy hands to play post flop. You either make your hand or a draw or fold. You just have to be able to get away from the top pair, no-kicker hands with the suited A's. Those hands can definately be trouble. And of course it all holds true whenever you have the "should I play this hand from this position" question... The answer is always "it depends". I would agree with all of this if it were a limit game. No limit I think you are incorrect because the odds are huge to flop the flush (and if you do you will get no action) and if you flop a draw you are likely going to have to pay big to draw to it, a recipe for busting in NL. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on April 20, 2005, 10:05:34 AM You may be right as I have been mostly playing limit lately. Also, the last couple of Sit & Go's I've played have been incredibly passive which is probably skewing my perception.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on April 20, 2005, 06:43:23 PM It's very hard to chase in NL against reasonable players. In a limit game you often have 3 or 4 guys in the pot each making relatively small bets relative to pot size, in NL you might has 1 or 2 guys in with you making fairly large bets and push you off any draw, especially an obvious draw like a flush.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on May 13, 2005, 09:26:48 AM Ok I have a question for you all...
I've recently switched over to try some NL ring games. I'm playing the $25 buy-in tables (.10/.25 blinds). I'm doing ok and have a small win rate going but I would be doing A LOT better if I could get away from certain hands. Top pair top kicker is costing me a fortune as of late and I'm not sure if it's short term variance or poor play on my part. Specifically AK is driving me crazy. I'm going to run down 3 hands from last night from memory. Please disect and bash at will. #1 I have AdQd from under the gun. I raise to $1. MP calls and one other caller. Roughly $3 pot. Flop comes with an Ace and two diamonds. I bet out about the size of the pot and get min-raised by MP. Other player drops. I call. Turn is a blank (about $15 in the pot), he bets $5. I call. River is a blank. He bets another $5 and I call. I lose to AK. I figure I played this one just fine but it still was one of the larger losses of the night. #2 I have AKo on the button, it's raised before to .5 and reraise to 1. 4 of us go to the flop (around $5 pot.) which is ragged with an Ace. First to act bets out about half the pot(2.50). Everyone folds and I min raise and he shoves for an additional $8. I call and he turns over a set of sevens. Should I have folded TPTK when he shoved at least saving the extra $8? #3 I lose AK (TPTK) to a flopped A-rag two pair again doubling the guy up when he reraised all-in on the flop. It seems like I'm paying off too many all-ins with just TPTK. Should I be folding this down as soon as I get a lot of pressure back or will it eventually start to hold up against the maniacs and I'm just seeing short term variance? I've only played about 400 hands so far and at the highest I've been +75bb. Currently I'm at +11bb which is still over 2bb/hour but it could be a lot more if I could have gotten away from those 3 hands. Is this just part of the normal variance of no limit? I know my sample size is ridiculously small but I figure it's better to look for feedback earlier rather than later. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Paelos on May 13, 2005, 10:11:51 AM Ring NL is all about seeing cheap flops with pocket pairs. That's where you get most people by the nuts and take all their money. If I'm playing AKo, and A73 comes up on a flop, I'm going to be wary of the dude who goes in with $10, especially if two of the flop are suited. Reason being is that more likely than not, he's hit his set of 7s, but he's afraid of the flush draw call, so he's making your pay to see cards. Either that, or he's hit two pair because he's holding A3s or something. Believe me i've had AK or AQ cracked many times by a guy catching his weaker kicker on the flop.
If they are playing shitty hands like that, they aren't going to bet subtley. Don't be afraid to fold something like that away if you know that you are playing with bad players. That's simply a tell. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on May 13, 2005, 12:38:34 PM Seeing flops cheap with pocket pairs is nice, if the table will let you do that.
In NL calling is almost always a mistake. I think that's the problem here. If you raise you give yourself two chances to win. (Fold or actually have the better hand) In a 4-way pot if I flop top-pair top-kicker if someone re-raises me I'm folding almost for sure unless I know a lot about that player. Top pair top kicker is still just a pair. I would rarely call any all-in with a pair unless I set it up. (Like, I bet the flop and turn, they are low on money, then check the river and they bet all-in after me in desparation) Quote I have AKo on the button, it's raised before to .5 and reraise to 1. 4 of us go to the flop (around $5 pot.) which is ragged with an Ace. First to act bets out about half the pot(2.50). Everyone folds and I min raise and he shoves for an additional $8. I call and he turns over a set of sevens. Should I have folded TPTK when he shoved at least saving the extra $8? The initial round of bets is wrong here. In a tight game I'll bet 3 or 4x the blind, in a loose game 5-6x the blind. You want people to make mistakes. Calling a 6x blind raise with 33 is often a mistake, calling a 2x blind raise with 33 isn't. The point of poker is to force mistakes and get opponents to put in more money than they should. If I have AK on the button and it's raised to .50 cents when it gets to me I'm raising a lot more than another 50 cents. Raise at least 1.50 there. Then on the flop he bets half the pot and you min-raise. This is a value raise? When he goes all-in I'm folding there for sure. He has at least two pair. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on May 13, 2005, 12:51:48 PM stuff What he said. If you are going to play high unsuited cards, you either need to get heads up or close to it and create "fold equity." Raise more pre-flop, fold more post-flop against heavy action if only have TP/TK and you don't have a redraw (i.e. I see no problem with the AdQd hand except I may have actually come over the top on the turn to try to get him to fold depending on stack size and that river call would not be a crying call, it would be a sobbing call). I had a real head scratcher in a tourney last night. Live 100 buy in NL freeze-out tourney. Started with 108 and it is down to 6. I am in the money, but the money goes WAY up at 5th place. I am short stacked and in the BB. BB is 1200 and I have 1300 after posting. Folded to the button who raises it to 3600. SB (who is a crafty player), goes all in and has the button covered. This is a truly brilliant bet. If I call, the button can't call because he risks being taken out in 6th (which is sort of a mini-bubble) with a real short stack likely to go out soon. If I fold, the button can't call for the same reason. The problem I had was that if the button had a real hand (which was a possibility), I would be all-in against a good hand and a semi-decent hand. I would have trippled up if I own it though. I ended up folding my K5o, but I think that was a mistake. Button folded. Based upon watching the SB after the hand, I think he had jack-sqaut. Great play. I busted out the next hand. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on May 13, 2005, 03:59:41 PM I was just reading about how non-paired high starting hands like AKo, etc. dramatically lose value as more players enter the pot. High pocket pairs hold up much better.
The advice was bet to push people out when sitting on AKo etc. Bet for value with high pocket pairs. Of course, this all depends on the table you are playing. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on May 13, 2005, 08:11:32 PM The key with a hand like AK is that you are rarely a huge underdog, but you are also are often behind at least a bit, so giving people a chance to fold is critical. A lot of people like to push all-in with AK because it assures they will see 5 cards. If you have AK your chance of hitting an A or K by the river is pretty good, but not so good on the flop. It's the same logic with pushing all in one a flush draw on the flop. Give the other guys a chance to fold and give yourself 2 shots at making the flush.
That's different from a hand like 55 because even though a hand like 55 beats AK heads up, there are a lot of hands 55 is a huge underdog to. AK is only a huge underdog to AA and KK, and if you have an A and a K in your hand the chance of someone else having those aren't so great. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on May 14, 2005, 07:56:55 PM AK is my new favorite hand.
I won about $120 in two hands in a cash game last night. I was on the button twice when I was dealt AK. Both times, someone ahead of me pushed all in. I called and won both. I played super-tight preflop because I've gotten really sick of making 2nd best hands and chasing draws all day long. It worked out really well. The best hand I made all night was 2 pair, yet I walked away with 6 times my $20 buy in for the game. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on May 14, 2005, 09:38:59 PM Calling an all-in with AK is not as good as pushing with AK because you have no fold equity and are usually at best a coin-flip to win unless you know the person will push with things like AQ or AJ. Depends on stack size though.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on May 14, 2005, 10:05:59 PM Calling pre-flop all-ins with AK is a recipe for large long-term losses unless you are playing with some pretty bad players. But enjoy your money!
Edit: Last night I entered a $1 NL Holdem tourney that had 2000 entrants, I finished about 100. (Not great, not awful) But, I only won 3 hands at showdown the whole tournament. I usually win more pots without showdown than with but that's just absurd. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Toast on May 15, 2005, 04:31:02 PM The other players in my cash game are maniacs who like to push all in with crap. They bluff way too much , so it's a really easy call.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: UD_Delt on May 16, 2005, 06:47:46 AM Good advice from all.
I managed to put it to work Friday night. A combination of decent play, great cards, and folding mediocre hands (tptk) to lots of aggression resulted in a +$96 night at the $25 NL tables. I managed to clear the recent empire $100 bonus while up +$109 from play. $209 payday for about 1300 hands or so (1000 raked). I'm also thinking I'm going to enjoy absolute poker. Their software is horrendously bad but they offer a shit-ton of bonuses AND bonuses stack with rakeback. Bonuses clear at about 10x and clearing $80 in bonus money resulted in $50 rakeback deposited in my account a couple days ago. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 03, 2006, 02:24:00 PM Major Necro-post, but why start a new thread when this one works?
I just moved A LOT closer to the local res casino, so I can play with the fishies far more often now. Took the opportunity to play last night; played some $3/$6 while waiting for my $4/$8 seat (that is how balla I am!). They open a new $4/$8 game, and this hand comes up- 4/8 live last night. Very first hand at a new table. Hero is in the BB with 4c 2d. 3 limpers, SB completes, and Hero checks. Flop- 5d 3d 3h SB checks, Hero checks, EP checks, MP bets, MP2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, EP calls. 4 players to the turn. Turn- 6h SB checks, Hero checks, EP checks, MP bets, SB calls, Hero raises, EP folds, MP calls, SB calls. River 5c SB checks, Hero ? Curious how you folks would play it, and why. I will tell you what I did a bit later... Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 03, 2006, 10:54:07 PM I would bet and call one raise. If I end up getting in the middle of a raising war between SB and MP I am folding because at least one of them has a 5.
My expectation would be that MP has an overpair (77, 88 or 99) and that SB was on a diamond or heart draw and will fold at this point. I'd put that at about 70%. Other thought is a 5 or 3 in the SB rather than the MP in which case you can call his raise and MP will likely just call or fold. I just don't see MP playing that way with a 5 based on his lead out on the turn. Since you are posting this I think one of them called you down with a 5 and you got sucked into going a few bets, but that is just a guess. As for the earlier play, I think I may have actually check-raised the flop or even led out actually hoping to make a re-raise. With two diamonds on the board and bottom trips I may want to get it down to heads up or just take it. At a minimum I want to charge the draws a price. I will usually only go for the turn check-raise with a more disguised hand like a flopped set or two pair on a very uncoordianted board. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on November 04, 2006, 12:36:00 AM The question here is, if you bet, can you force out any hands that actually have you beat? Probably not. Any hands that have you beat will likely raise a bet, or at least call.
If you bet, can you induce a call out of a hand you can beat? Maybe an overpair. If MP has an overpair he will probably bet again, but he probably won't raise a bet. Therefore you betting and him calling is basically the same as him betting and you calling. Either way you are getting one bet out of him. If you think he has a mid-pair the only reason to bet is if you think he won't bet, and given he bet on every other round I wouldn't assume that. If I bet here and someone raises me what do I do? I have to throw my hand away. And at a 4/8 table nobody would fold an A3 or A5, so someone could easily have that. I'm check-calling one bet and expecting to either beat a 99 or lose to an A5 or A3 from either player. Ab: On the flop he does not have bottom trips, he has an inside straight draw. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 04, 2006, 10:01:33 AM Woops. I totally misread the hand and pulled the 3 in the "3 limpers" into his holding.
Nevermind. (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/Abagadro/gilda_radner71.jpg) Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 04, 2006, 10:04:27 AM Ok, as to my advice now I agree a check-call for one bet is the way to go. You are either inducing a bluff that you can beat or minimizing the loss. I would actually expect a check-through from MP and losing to SB's full house and missed check-raise attempt.
EDIT: Oh, and I may have seriously considered folding on the flop. You only have 6 clean outs and it is a paired board against 3 other players. Even if no one has a flush draw you are drawing 5.5-1 and only getting pot odds of 8-1 on the flop bet with a chance of ending up drawing dead. If someone is indeed holding diamonds you are drawing about 7.5-1. It is a very thin equity call at best. You are also out of position. I lose lots of money in these situations where I am in the BB and flop a draw when I never would have played the hand to begin with. I think folding even if you have thin equity may be long term +EV (because of the somewhat reverse implied odds of later streets). If I have 5 or 6 coming along on the flop it is a different story as the pot odds will make up for the thin call. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on November 04, 2006, 03:00:08 PM Oops, I said he had in inside straight draw but he had an open-ended one, apparently neither of us can read. I'm an engineer, what's your excuse? :evil:
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 06, 2006, 09:31:43 AM Good to see some discussion!
I checked. MP bet, and SB called. Call, raise, or fold? Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 06, 2006, 09:58:15 AM I would just call. At low limit you have almost no river fold equity even when you should and here with two people in and a double paired board I see no reason to risk having to pay a 3-bet to get to showdown. The biggest pot I ever pulled in low limit was in a 4-8 res game with 6 people going to the river capped every street with a paired board so people will always pay you off with garbage but I don't think it is a huge equity play to raise here and folding would be stupid for one bet as you are getting 11-1 on your call.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: shiznitz on November 06, 2006, 11:16:16 AM I am not a poker player so maybe I ma getting this wrong:
Way = Hero and he has a straight on the Flop. The danger is that MP or SB pull a full house but can they really both have one? Flush looks unlikely. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 06, 2006, 11:53:15 AM I am not a poker player so maybe I ma getting this wrong: Way = Hero and he has a straight on the Flop. The danger is that MP or SB pull a full house but can they really both have one? Flush looks unlikely. I made a straight on the turn. Both flush draws missed, but two pair on the board makes it exceedingly likely that one or both of my opponents have some flavor of full house. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 06, 2006, 11:58:28 AM I suppose you could push a real dope off of a 3 and catch another dope overplaying a hand you beat, but that circumstance is so rare at that level I can't see a river check-raise being worthwhile.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 06, 2006, 12:21:37 PM If this hand had happened 30 minutes later, I call in an instant due to reads (SB was a calling station...god love him). I thought and thought about it, and I just couldn't conceive of a way I could have both players beat, so I folded my straight face up. MP showed 98s for a busted flush, and SB showed 76 for top pair. I then threw up in my lap.
I think I overestimated the quality of my opponents since it was not the lowest limit available (there were a bunch of 3/6 tables too). I re-learned the old lesson- if calling 1 bet on the river in a big pot is a mistake, it is a small one, while folding for 1 bet in a big pot is usually a big mistake, ESPECIALLY when your call closes the action!! I still ended up winning 20 big bets for the session, but this hand bugged me. I am out of practice and timid. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 06, 2006, 12:44:45 PM Quote I re-learned the old lesson- if calling 1 bet on the river in a big pot is a mistake, it is a small one, while folding for 1 bet in a big pot is usually a big mistake, ESPECIALLY when your call closes the action!! Yup. This is the single best thing I got out of Ed Miller's book. In low limit games I basically have a rule now that I will call 1 river bet to get to showdown unless I have missed a draw or I have a real good read that someone behind me has hit theirs. (The other key is not to go to the river very much in these games unless you have a strong hand or monster draw). The combination of clueless players who will bet/call down anything and idiots who think they are tricky and will bluff the river makes this strategy +EV in my opinion. The pot has to be at least over 5-6 BB though. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Margalis on November 06, 2006, 04:51:56 PM Yeah, pretty much...you folded?
In that case I'm calling and expecting to lose. But I'm calling. Low limit games are crazy. One thing to remember is that most low-limit players don't pay any attention to the board and what other people might have. By that I mean, people consider mid-set on a totally broken board the same strength as mid-set on 9TJQK with 3 hearts. They have a basic understanding of what hands are good, but not in context of the situation. There are some people who will bet a straight or 3 of a kind or whatever no matter what, no matter what the board reads. Checking and folding to a single river bet? In 10/20 I might consider doing it based on pot odds. Anything below that no way. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 07, 2006, 11:39:06 AM If SB hadn't called (or if I knew he was a retard before the hand), I would have called. I just couldn't see how I could beat 2 opponents on a double paiired board, but I didn't think about the odds I was getting before the fold, which was a rookie mistake.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 07, 2006, 11:57:03 PM I hate that feeling when you know you made a mistake that cost you a big pot. Focus on the bright side that you were able to recover and have a good session with is far more important than any given hand as no one plays perfect poker.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 08, 2006, 09:35:48 AM Very true. It was just so hard to not give those guys credit with no reads, and I should have just gone with the math and called.
I plan on playing a lot more often if I can...daddy has a new mortgage payment to make :-D Maybe the new majority will unfuck Internet gambling and get it regulated and legalized so I can go back to the money train. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Sky on November 15, 2006, 06:40:12 AM I'd like to ask a favor from the card sharks, especially the legal sharks in the crowd: Can I get a quick summary of the legality of US online gambling, especially in NY?
The librarians are having a meeting tomorrow and on the agenda is "Internet Gamling - Illegal - How do we enforce?" Iirc, certain money transactions are illegal, but gambling itself isn't. Not to mention enforcement is ludicrous, because you can have non-RMT card/casino games...just need some more meat to knock it off the agenda before they meet :) Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 15, 2006, 09:19:41 AM It varies from state to state. The Wire Act is a federal law, but that was aimed more at bookies (sports betting). Its relationship to online casinos is in a legal gray area, or so I have been told. Only one guy has been prosecuted in relation to online gambling, and he was running a sports betting site.
It sure would be nice if the 110th Congress pulled their heads out of their asses and legalized online gambling with some regulation and oversight (AND TAXES). There is SO much money to be made for both companies and the government. Not allowing it is nanny state bullshit. Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: Abagadro on November 15, 2006, 09:20:02 PM Interesting article on the ramifications of Frist's baby:
http://www.slate.com/id/2153352/ Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: bhodi on November 15, 2006, 11:40:15 PM Nothing gives me a shit-eating grin like my government shooting themselves in the foot after trying to prevent the populace from doing something that they want to do. Hell yeah. Go Antigua, fuck prohibition.
Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: WayAbvPar on November 16, 2006, 08:56:39 AM Interesting article on the ramifications of Frist's baby: http://www.slate.com/id/2153352/ Wow, that is interesting. I knew about the WTO situation, but I hadn't heard about what punishment could be meted out. If this whole thing ends up with legalized online gambling, how would the Washington state law prohibiting same stand? Does the WTO ruling affect states as well, or is it just worried about federal prohibitions? I can't explain how happy I would be to be able to play poker online again with a clear conscience and no threat of jail time (Class C felony...10 years in jail!!! Overreact much?). Title: Re: Continuing from WT: A question about online poker Post by: tazelbain on November 16, 2006, 09:05:53 AM When has the WTO ever helped us? It seems like a mainly tool to use against us. China continues to do what ever the fuck it wants. But we get hit on all sides by everyone else.
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