f13.net

Goddamn that is cool. I am jealous of these kids, and the ones after them who will have even cooler shit to make school more tolerable. And here I thought I had it good with the Atari 400 in the back of the classroom with "States and Capitals" on it in 1981.

Man, only 8 or so years ago I was carrying around a 500 pound backpack with every book for every class in it, and then some.  My school didn't have lockers.

He gives them his notes too; sweet!  I wouldn't  go to class and could still ace the tests!

Maybe kids eyes will adapt, too.

Screen resolution is still not improving to the point where it even semi-rivals print. I've been reading from computer displays for 20 years and still do not find it suitable for more than brief periods of time, for gathering brief "info-bits". When I need to grasp or understand something in-depth, and when doing so requires hours of reading, I find I have to have printed text.

I often wish display resolution followed Moore's Law the way CPU power has.

Every student got a laptop instead when I was in high school. A long with wireless internet access it was the pwn.

Damn spoiled kids.

They also didn't have buses when I went.  We had to walk.  And shoes hadn't been invented, so we were barefoot.  And global warming hadn't happened, so it was through the snow.  Uphill.  With a 300lb backpack.

I too perfer printed text for long periods of research reading.

These kids will be shocked when they get to college and have to actually carry something.

I can't believe the kid was crying about a 30lbs backpack. That was pretty standard for a lot of kids I knew in HS who were honors-types.

I was too lazy to be an honors student, so I left books in my locker and didn't care.

I can see long-term financial incentives for this: Fewer lost/stolen textbooks (assuming school districts buy copyright releases for the electronic form) and lower copying costs.  The problem I envision is that most school districts in this country cannot afford to maintain an appropriate number of updated computers to satisfy student demand.  This would also likely require schools to have someone on the payroll for maintenence and upkeep of the expanded number of terminals. 

On a lighter note: given the current administration, shouldn't we be preparing our children for learning in a post-apocalyptic world with only charcoal and bark as equipment?

I prefer books when it comes to studying anything. Down with technology! Burn the computers! Burn the admins!

Quickly Emile! Throw your sabots into the machinery! Eat the bourgois!

(http://users.info.unicaen.fr/~giguet/images/sabots.gif)

Yeah, being in college now and learning that law books get mighty hefty. 30 lbs? I can reach that just throwing my psych and english book in the same bag. Add in my law books and we're well over 80lbs. My poor feeble body  :heartbreak:

Thankfully, my books are pretty light this semester. One class has no book, one has a small leaflet-like paperback. The other three have a few paperbacks each.


Then again, I never have to carry all of my books around at once, or even all the books for a single class.

I cry more about book Prices than their Weight.

Monday is like a test for my course. 6 hours of law and that means all my law books come too. Not to mention I have to go to work right after school on mondays too.

Ah, poor baby.  A whole thirty pounds?  Is it now this country's goal to breed a generation of uber-pussies?

How about instead of all the fucking gadgets we instead focus on gutting the public schools root and branch, instituting vouchers so kids can get a real education from teachers who don't belong to a union that only encourages teacher apathy and laziness?  Great you've got your Flash drive, laptop and iPod; how's about we try actually teaching core curriculum like math, science, and history?

Book load is one of the big 'soccer mom' concerns of the last 2 years, Gulp.  Realize you don't have kids, but I figured you'd have seen a story on it on your local news sometime.  All sorts of talk about kids carrying too much weight on their backs, and improperly and developing back problems. (That's why backpacks come with wheels and a handle now) Never give a percentage of the kids, just that it's happened in the usual sensationalist news manner.

As for college.  What the fuck, the only class I ever had to carry a book for every day were my Literature and English courses.  The rest were lectures that were supplimental to the books.  Notepads, pens, maybe a handout package... that's all I carried to 90% of my classes.

I get really really tired of this whole phenomena of people in their McMansions living vicariously through their kids while chauffering them to karate, soccer, play dates, yadda yadda.  How about a little bit less indulgence here, folks?  The entire goal of having kids is to raise them to be self-sufficient members of society who can eventually move the fuck out of your house.  All this is other horseshit is just idiotic molly coddling.

I envy you. On top of having to bring books I have to bring binders to write notes in. A lot of my classes require the book as a means to give a more hands on feel so you can read, highlight and comprehend on your own time what the hell they're talking about.

Sometimes, some of my classes refer to the books, so I like having with me...just in case.

It's not like my books are exceedingly heavy or anything.



And I just seethe when I see people using rolling backpacks anywhere....lazy fucks.
Though it is different when its a professor carrying a shitton of stuff. Profs carry a lot of stuff sometimes.

Carrying books around are actually one of the reasons I stopped studying in high school and decided to just wing all the tests that came my way.

 And still none of the damn kids we hire can count fucking change back to the customer. Sky is blue, I know.

Hey, me too.  Except it wasn't about not carrying books, mostly just because I was lazy.  And because I aced the tests anyways.  And I found I actually retained the information better if I just concentrated on the lecture instead of worrying about copying everything down in time.

Pfft, I still do that. I only have 1 professor whose class I can actually do notes for.

That's because he kicks ass.

Perhaps I should note that I use the past tense strictly because I'm done with school.  I stuck with that practice up until I graduated and, if I ever go back for a Master's, will likely still take the absolute minimum notes.

I bought 5 [text]books total through my time at UMD. Mostly because I was a TA for 4 semesters. Keke? ^_^ I specify textbooks because I took some classes specifically for the books they were discussing, particularly the film ones.

Oddly enough, I agree wholeheartedly with Gulp.

Pussification of Kids is ruining them.

Really.

If we eliminate hardship from childrens lives, we refuse to teach them one of the most important of life's lessons.

Life IS pain.

(Everything said above stated entirely seriously.)

And like BG do you not have kids?

I was in an antique bookstore on vacation. They had a guide for boys, dating back over a hundred years. I saw sections like 'amateur taxidermy' and 'snowball warfare' and sighed for the old days when being a kid weeded out the weak or at least gave them coping skills. I didn't have an easy childhood, being something of a geek, but it did make me a wise and strong man. I see people who have had a fairly easy life and they have an almost complete lack of problem solving skills and crumble under adversity. I get a kick out of it, honestly.

I'm not like BG in that regard, no.

Nevertheless, I don't think you can disregard someone's opinion solely on that reason.  Looking around today I find far, far too many examples of spoiled children who are taking the lesson that they are special and can get away with anything.  This type of attitude breeds all sorts of additional problems, which I won't go into here for fear that I sound like I'm 90 or summat.

Hooray for technology and bringing kids into the new millenium and whatnot.  But if it were the case that the sole reason for doing it is to make life easier on little precious, well, I think we lost sight of what we should be trying to teach the children, as I stated.  Of course, here is not really the thread to thrash all this out, unless you want a major derail.

Man.

Is there anything the Dread Pirate Roberts DIDN'T know?

It's not that I disregard the opinions - I'm just better equipped to understand when outrage conflicts with reality.  The problem with sweeping statements is that while fun and breezy to toss them out if there's too much heat in an under-informed opinion the person just looks silly... ;)

Children whose skeletal/musculature are still forming don't need to carry thirty pound backpacks all day - when this happens in the third world we call it abuse.  "Forming character" takes a backseat to causing lifelong physical problems.  Not to mention the psychological damage caused be teaching kids contempt for their books & studies.  I don't coddle my children but I don't toss them in the deep end while invoking Darwin either.

Besides, listening to the kidless foam at the mouth about "bad parents" is on par with hearing virgins talk about how disgusting sex is... one just has to smile. :D

Sigh.

Dude, a greater percentage of parents these days are bad parents.

There's a generic statement which I welcome attacks on.  But those assholes that you went to school with ?  They're your age now and breeding.

Yeah, that's right.

Couple that with the 'protections' of the law and you have a situation where Gangs of Kids roam streets looking for people to stab.  Seriously.  Not, like, vandalise or abuse or Apple Scrump, but actively stab another human being.  Yeah, that's right.  Where I used to live SUCKED.

My Mother is a Head of Department in one of the larger Strathclyde schools.  The stories that come out about Parents AND children these days just simply cannot be borne.  It's fine for you (and maybe I) to shake our heads at those 'blaming the parents' and say 'Well, I'm doing a grand job with Jemimah' but it's different when big fucking jimmy breaks your kids kneecaps at school and his parents SIMPLY DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

It's just as bad to make sweeping statements as it is to think that because you're fine, everyone's fine.  I put it to you that you're no more equipped to understand when outrage conflicts with reality.  YOUR reality, maybe...

Anyway, "Children whose skeletal/musculature are still forming don't need to carry thirty pound backpacks all day - when this happens in the third world we call it abuse. "

Do we ?  I put it to you that we don't give a rats ass.  Further, if Children who are 'developing' are SERIOUSLY carting backpacks that weigh too much for a single school day, I put it to you that someone, somewhere, is a Goddamn Fucking Moron.

 :wink:

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here, but:

Your glass has no water in it at all, does it?

I don't even have a fucking glass anymore mate.

An empty glass is a tragic thing.

(http://www.smoking-pipes-manufacturers.com/gifs/glass-water.jpg)

Before I say anything else, I want to note that I embrace the use of technology in the classroom.  I teach with powerpoint slides, live demonstrations, and streaming video in my lectures.  I also have my notes on a centralized website for my students to access.  I hope that we'll invest enough in public education to make the use of technology in teaching more widespread.  Unfortunately, I think that this whole thing is doomed.  Why? I'll put this simply: The majority of K-12 teachers suck. (DISCLAIMER: For those that do a fine job (the top 10%), I salute you for working under shitty conditions for crap pay.)

Kids haul backpacks full of books because their teachers suck to the point that they are incapable of teaching without a cruch (i.e. directly from some book).  Couple to this the fact that the majority of textbooks that I've reviewed/edited are filled with GLARING ERRORS!  Books are resources meant to aid in education.  Let the kids refer to them as a supplement to their in-class activities.  Don't require them to read them along with you in class.  This is fine for literature, not for history, science, and math.

Being a parent, I also want to comment on how MONUMENTALLY FUCKING STUPID it is to give elementary school kids enormous amounts of homework.  They're kids... how about teaching them something to get them interested and then let them fucking enjoy being a kid.  A little at-home project is fine... having them do 2h worth of worksheets every night serves little more than making them hate school.

Note: this post contains about 95% of all of the profanity I've posted here over the years.  I'm infuriated by the state of public education in this country.  I would say that at least once a week I have to re-teach subjects to my daughter because one of her teachers didn't have a clue.  Though I do admit that some of my parent-teacher conferences have been entertaining.

It's not just THESE days.

Most people are fucking morons. Complete, clueless idiots who believe that no matter what evidence to the contrary, they are pursuing the right path in their lives. Or they are too busy reacting to actually think about the actions they are pursuing. Most people are not equipped to be the steward of a brick outhouse, much less the life/lives of another human being who will grow up to inflict their stupidity on the rest of the world. The trick is that governments, societies, and religions, as well as individuals, think that having children is imperative. Of course it is a genetic imperative, and societies and governments need ditches dug and religions need souls to save, so of course they would believe that. But the honest truth is that most people really aren't fit to be parents. EVER.

And that is the way it always has been and always will be.

The entirety of human technological advancement has been to ease the burden on man's proverbial back, and that includes lessening the weight of the backpack he carries in school. Now yes, I will agree that little Jimmy and Jane Rottencrotch are being coddled into complete pussification, taught that they are a unique snowflake who can never do any wrong and thus don't need to accept personal responsibility. But that's got a lot less to do with having to lug around 30 pound books and more to do with being taught that personal responsibility is for someone else to take.

Yeah, but population explosion and whatnot.  There are, in fact, more people these days.

Incidentally, why is this thread in the games section anyways ???

 I would agree with you on the 30 pounds thing Poco if perhaps we were talking about a second grader. But goddamn, these are ninth graders man. 15/16. If you can't handle thirty pounds by that age, you better have a head the size of a blue ribbon watermelon, because if thinking ain't your thing, you're fucked.

And with that, we can lock the politics and social part of the thread.  Well said.

My fault maybe - I'm referring to the entire trend for public schools over the last ten years.  But even at 15/16 I think we're missing the real point if all we do is focus on weight lifting.

As was said earlier, busy work is an excuse for poor teaching.  There is no reason why anyone should be lugging around that much to begin with.  How many of you are lugging 30lb briefcases to work everyday, and if you're not is it because your character is supreme and your physique near-Olympic quality?  Or is it because it's pointless and its easier to carry a notepad, flash drive, or just log into what you need from wherever you are.

Honestly I'd like to think our society has evolved beyond Malthus.

I work at a library and often carry books to work.

Ebooks suck ass.

As far as your suggestion Poco...notebooks and flash drives are expensive, books are free (from the library, anyway). And reading on a powered screen is total shit imo, give me the printed word any day.

I fought long and hard (and ironically, as the technical guy here) against buying ebooks for all the area libraries. They enjoyed an initial spike of curiosity, but they haven't circulated in a couple years now, because people like books.

Re: poor teaching. I turn around your claim of folks not being parents. You're not a teacher, are you?

If you're asking me, I am both a parent AND a teacher. 

 I dunno. I'd say when I was in ninth grade, I probably had around that poundage in books. But I was a reading weasel. I'd be about 3 or 4 chapters ahead of what we were on. (which fucked me on a lot of tests)
 I did know a lot of kids that just continually made the run between classes to their locker to exchange books though. It's not like there aren't options.

Ebooks and digital reading of large blocks of text have a long way to go. Desktops are just really not made for extended periods of reading, and neither are displays. Ebooks will catch on when a cheap (less than $50), lightweight, reloadable option the size of a paperback is available, and publishers start selling ebooks for cheaper than a paperback. But that's going to take more wireless connections (or Bluetooth on the reader) and of course, some form of managable (read: not total shit) DRM is working. The people who have the capability to put the money into researching that kind of stuff don't want to put the money into it, because they are making money the traditional way. Profit retards progress.

As for poor teachers, the teaching field is littered with them because the money isn't there to pay the ones we have, and the ones we do have are abdicated all the responsibility of turning out a mongrel generation of retards. Lots of lip service gets paid to education, but not a lot of action. Ever since I was a kid, I was pounded with learning that amounted to rote memorization skills over critical, creative thinking. Our educational system even today lacks imagination. It was more important that I learn how to add and subtract and memorize my times table than learn how to use a calculator and critical thinking to solve big problems. The maths and sciences I was taught were fucking nightmarish jokes, idiotic spewing of facts and figures that focused on nothing but regurgitation of those 30-lb textbooks as opposed to genuine thinking about the nature of the universe. History was all about dates and names, instead of personalities, motivations and the cause and effect of events. Our education system is and has been total shit for at least a generation, and it isn't just due to lazy, unimaginative teachers, though that is certainly a problem. The core of the problem has been a systemic failure of administration and curriculum, a focus on the wrong aspects of education. It hasn't been about education, it's been about training and discipline. It's been an industrial assembly line mentality, in a world where the assembly line is better handled by non-human hands.

Ok. How about free? Read my post, we have had them in our library system (serving 43 communities in central NY) for years now. Usage has dwindled to zero...after a huge spike of initial interest. People don't like them. I imagine they will gain a niche following, but they'll never replace printed books. Never. It's not like paper is some scarce resource, it's infinitely renewable, if produced properly (especially if hemp fiber were used, but that's another issue..).
And I agree with what you said. The value of textbooks isn't to be demeaned by shitty teachers who use it directly in place of their own coursework. I'd say the value is in expanding upon the information taught in the small window of time the teacher has with the kids, or preparing kids for discussion the next day. Errors in the text can be turned into a valuable lesson in critical reading, since even 'facts' in the books can be wrong, for instance: how much science from our days in high school is still accurate? There've been amazing advances, lots of solid facts when I was in school are now different. Such is the nature of science, in particular, but learning in general.

Hammy, it's not just throwing money at teachers, in my area teachers do extremely well (though not as good as coaches...another debate). I think one of the very worst things about our educational system is a lack of standards for teachers to adhere to, so they stay current with knowledge and methods..and most especially tenure. Tenure makes for lazy teachers who get arrogant because they are safe in their positions due to the tenure.

It's a complex issue, though. Other factors like "No Child Left Behind", standardization, norming tests, and the fact that is often ignored: some kids simply aren't going to ever get academics. I'd like to see more differentiation, so a kid that isn't interested in academics, but really digs cars, can get a solid technical education and maybe become a great mechanic, or perhaps even kindle an interest in engineering to design engines or something.

The best teacher I had wouldn't last long in the modern system. He had everyone take a battery of tests at the beginning of the year, and then broke the class into three groups: the advanced kids, the normal kids, and the attention kids. I was in the advanced group (thanks, brain), we were given the textbooks and sat in a circle. We'd read a chapter together and discuss it amongst ourselves, take our own self tests and grade each other. When we finished a chapter, we'd get a test from the teacher in the traditional sense.

The middle group got a normal classroom experience, and the lower group got the bulk of the teacher's time, because they needed things explained to them. The slower kids got the time with the teacher they needed, the coursework didn't leave them behind. The advanced kids didn't get held back as the teacher had to take time to explain every concept in detail, we could move ahead (indeed, we finished the whole curriculum with months to spare and he kept us going with more advanced stuff, including our own computer to work through resource management games).

That was fifth grade. I still remember it clearly as the best learning experience for all involved in my entire life, barring my time in music college.
But I fully agree with the Haemster here. My girlfriend was saying the same thing while we were on vacation and I was explaining the geology of Queechee Gorge to her in response to her simple inquiry of "Why is the water so murky?" I took her through all the layers exposed in the rock face, explaining the differing rock types and how time and pressure changed them, we even took some samples for the house. She said if she had learned geology like that, hands-on, she may have remembered it.

It's not the Ebooks, it's the reader. Sure, you can read Ebooks on your computer or your Palm, but it's uncomfortable for long periods. Ebooks will never replace paper, of course not. But they can be a viable form of media distribution, provided the reader isn't total shit for its purpose, which computers and current options are.

EDIT: Also, learning is a lifelong thing, and unfortunately, our educational system makes it seem like it should be a temporary thing that once passed, is never touched on again. It's administration, curriculum and attitude that has contributed to make our system what it is. Hell, our current political administration SCOFFS at academics, practically linking the word academic or academia with "atheist pinko commie bastard," merely because the politics of most academics don't jibe with their own. They treat science as a cudgel to be used when it fits their politics, and a dirty word when it disagrees with their view of the world. "No Child Gets Left Behind" got left behind when the issue of funding came up.

And yet I know so many people who swear by them and will pass over a publication until it's released electronically. YMMV?


Nope but I am the son of a teacher who taught in public schools for forty years.  I'm extremely sensitive to the sacrifices teachers make - my sister and I often took backseat.

All too often parents point their cannons at teachers when it fact it is the administration they should police. (not to mention their own voting habits, putting into office people who consistently slash school budgets so they can enrich themselves from corporate coffers - just get me started about tax abatements to corporations that tragically undermine local school funding)

My mom retired about the time teaching to the state test and cumbersome busy work began to be the norm.  She simply couldn't take the heartbreak anymore.

My mom is/was also a teacher, who is out of the classroom now and is in charge of curriculum and mostly the purchase and installation of computers and software for the entire school district. Parents love to abdicate their responsibility for good learning onto the teachers, since really, the attitude towards learning starts at home. It's the teachers' fault for not teaching well, not the parents for instilling a distaste of learning in the child.  

We tested a lot of readers and the one the system went with was the most ergonomic and book-like and sized about like a hardcover (not in thickness...it's a dedicated reader, not a PDA or whatever). Either way, as Poco said, ymmv. I hated the thing and we wasted a lot of money on them. Indeed, the demand was originally so high my library ordered another unit (three total) despite my protests...ah, well. Can't win 'em all, and satisfaction doesn't bring that money back.
Yep. Almost all I watch on my tv is educational stuff, almost all I read is informative or educational non-fic. I don't have enough years left to learn what I'd like to. That people waste so much time on drama tv and trash novels saddens me...it's also part of why gaming is receding in my life...just enough to get in a little entertainment between bouts of bettering myself. All work and no play and whatnot, but it seems a lot of people just want all play and no work.

I feel the same way.  I don't have many bigoted bones in my body but the one I do have is intellectualism.

Hey, I like my Drama on TNT.  :-P

Anyway, just to touch upon something....

If you are a teacher, and you are teaching History through memorization.....

Just Die.    Seriously.

This is why I laugh at non-majors and underclassmen in my classes. The minute the professors stop teaching out of a book and the tests require some sort of actual thought is when most of these types break down in my classes.

"Huh? What? I don't get it!  :cry:"

Unfortunatley, during my entire school and even college career, every teacher I can remember taught exactly like this. Memorize the dates, memorize the one or two line summary of the major events, move on. That was it. Unless the teacher was really interested in the period (like the coaches with war history), it was nothing but facts, names and dates, which are totally worthless.

Unfortunately, this is how all of my high school classes were. I also had a few 100-level courses that, while the professor didn't sit at the desk with the book open in front of them, were essentially taught like this. Fortunately, I found a few professors who actually Teach, and I've just kept taking them whenever possible.

If you're allowed to pick your classes down to the teacher, this site (http://www.ratemyprofessor.com/index.jsp) is a godsend. Based on that site I figured out I would be making a lot of my own notes out of the text for my Psych class. My teacher is interesting, but his teaching methods escape every class he teaches.

There's more to history than that?

If you are trying to learn history just be memorizing things, you will ultimately learn nothing.


Fortunately, I pretty much knew what I was getting into with my classes this semester, though reading the comments is amusing. People complaining about "vague essay tests" is just funny.

-Well, I guess I can see how a "vague" essay question Can suck....but usually, the people I take leave the questions open to interpretation on purpose; Answer the question however you like (well, within reason), as long as you can properly back it up.

I am a parent and I do not want my children to be pussies.

They will carry books and like it.

Kids are much too small and mostly sticky.  I don't even know what they're for.  I'm much rather have the bong.

This fact becomes more and more mystifying with every post in the Useless News subforum.

I am truly interested to see them as adults.  I think their undoubtedly warped senses of humor will bring them either great success or great ruin.

This is all intended complimentarily.  (MSWord says that's the right word.)

It's the right word, but it's insane. I expect within 4 years that Shockeye's children will actually eat him.

Seriously. For breakfast one day, they're going to have a bagel with shockeye shmear.

Oh, and the word "complimentarily" sucks balls. :roll:

They're kids and they have wee little attention spans.  If you mostly ignore them, eventually they'll get bored and wander off.  I know I did.