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Title: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on August 25, 2005, 08:42:49 PM
Got another email from BioWare today, pimping some new module they have for sale. I had always wanted to get into NWN....but I quit, having never finished the original campaign, and no friends to play with.

I see there are a lot of good-looking modules out now, and the Platinum DVD edition is at a good price now.

Just wondering if this is worth reinstalling.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 25, 2005, 09:12:08 PM
Not really, no.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on August 25, 2005, 09:15:41 PM
 :|


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on August 25, 2005, 09:21:16 PM
Not really, no.

I disagree.  If you have not finished the original game then I would try it out again.  The first expansion was meh, but I loved the second one.  Also I have heard good things about the player made content, but never bothered with it.




please do not ban me Schild I did not mean to commit insubordination sir.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on August 25, 2005, 09:29:39 PM
Anyone played the modules that came out for NWN, sans expansions? It might be worth reinstalling to play some of the modules that are available for the original version...but I'd rather not waste my time.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 25, 2005, 09:33:33 PM
I think that was my big problem with NWN. The writing wasn't near as good as the BIS/Bioware collaborative stuff, and the game just felt like a waste of time. Going through the motions and all that.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on August 25, 2005, 09:40:18 PM
I hate these new avatars for some reason.  They freak me out.  I will be back after 3 days, I am sure they will change by then.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 25, 2005, 09:40:55 PM
If it makes you feel better, mine has nothing to do with everyone elses old asian men. I don't know what's going on there.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on August 25, 2005, 09:50:55 PM
I had a lot of fun with NWN Gold + Horde of the Underdark.  Shadows of Undrentide wasn't that bad but HOU was really a lot of fun.  Showed off a lot of what can be done with the engine and scripting (made me really want to get into module build, but I lack initiative to learn it all) and best of all it gave you another henchman.  A team of two is just way too restrictive but with 3 it opens up quite a bit.  Plus, you get Deakin, which is just another memorable Bioware character. Much  :heart: for the little kobold.

Plus, I'm a sucker for lvl 10+ AD&D.  I just think it's loads of fun with what you can fight and the versatility that's available to you.

I didn't play the orginal campaign.  I played it a while ago (ARRRRRRRR!) and it wasn't very engaging.  Seemed rather poorly written and plot was a tad hackneyed.  Plus, two player lowbie AD&D isn't very eye popping.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fabricated on August 25, 2005, 10:47:55 PM
Horde of the Underdark is pretty cool since it goes into epic territory and has all the neat bell and whistles. The first expansion and the original game pretty much suck.

The user made modules however can be really fucking good. I recommend "Honour Amoung Thieves" if you want to see how open ended of a game you can make. "In the company of thieves" is another thief oriented module that's much more linear, but has pretty good writing and comedy.

And then there's the Eternum series, which is well, pretty fucking amazing. Custom music and everything. Elegia Eternum and Excrucio Eternum rank amoung the best DnD based games I've ever played. Right up there with Baldur's Gate 1/2.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Trippy on August 25, 2005, 10:53:18 PM
Horde of the Underdark is pretty cool since it goes into epic territory and has all the neat bell and whistles. The first expansion and the original game pretty much suck.
Yeah but the first expansion (Shadows of Undrentide) has Deekin in it as well. I agree that the original campaign sucked, I never finished it either.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Paelos on August 25, 2005, 11:27:02 PM
The original game sucked in ways that made me wonder if they threw darts at a dictionary to form a storyline.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Kail on August 26, 2005, 12:41:11 AM
I had a ton of fun with the game in multiplayer.  The game, especially the original campaign, is pretty horrible by yourself, because A) you only get one sidekick, and B) he's infuriatingly retarded (especially the mages and clerics).  With a multiplayer group, though, even a group of two, you can start to get that party dynamic going, and it's a lot of fun, in my opinion.  Second module is a bit better, and the third one is a bit better than that (though you have to be around level fifteen to start it, and the option to fast level your character always feels like cheating to me, so I generally suffer through the first two anyway). 

In terms of modules, I haven't found anything that's been impressive, but I haven't played the premium ones, either.  Except, there was one called... ugh, I forget... Witch's Wake, I think?  Witch something, anyway, that I played (probably a demo of, since I'm pretty sure I didn't pay for it), which I thought was pretty awful.  Mountains of very dry dialogue, very slow.  Not something I'd play for free.  Personally, I'd not put too much faith in these premium modules saving the day.  They're all (except one) written by "BioWare writers and designers," in whom I have increasingly little faith.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on August 26, 2005, 01:00:55 AM
I take it you didn't play Jade Empire?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Ironwood on August 26, 2005, 02:12:43 AM
Taking a character through SoU and HotU from lvl 1 to epic is a truly great journey that I reccomend to any die hard gamer.  I thought the two expansions were both really well done and proved what can be done with the toolset.  It almost made me forget the COMPLETE stinky-plop that was the original game.  Oh, my, God, was that bad.

Further, a couple of the fan made ones were good for playing with the wife/friends.  Also, Witches Wake was really nicely done.

However :

NWN is fatally, fatally flawed as a D&D product.  It just flat out doesn't work.  I could go into why, but I'm not going to.  We've done this one to death so many times.

If only someone would use the ToEE engine for, you know, a GOOD module.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 26, 2005, 02:15:15 AM
Taking a character through SoU and HotU from lvl 1 to epic is a truly great journey that I reccomend to any die hard gamer.  I thought the two expansions were both really well done and proved what can be done with the toolset.  It almost made me forget the COMPLETE stinky-plop that was the original game.  Oh, my, God, was that bad.

Wouldn't playing Planescape Torment or Icewind Dale 1+2 be more fulfilling? Really. I mean NWN is the weakest of the Bioware products imho, and I was lined up on day one to get it. Talk about being ticked off when I started playing. It felt bad from "new game."


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Tebonas on August 26, 2005, 02:59:16 AM
Yes, Playing Torment and Icewind Dale 1 and 2 are more fullfilling. But after you have done that a dozen times,you need something different. Some NWN modules are really worth installing the game. The expansions are far superior to the original plot (how many times do they want to play the fallen paladin shtick exactly), and so are fan-made modules.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 26, 2005, 03:33:08 AM
Icewind Dale and Torment were simply examples, there are loads of games that are worth going back to that are far more exciting than NWN. NWN was hampered by its boring gameplay - which was thankfully absent from Jade Empire (though that wasn't exactly a shining beacon of twitch combat). Essentially - sure, there's some neat NWN stuff, but you need to be really goddamn bored before you take that route to kill time. Go buy Bad Mojo Redux.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: stray on August 26, 2005, 03:40:40 AM
I've bought NWN a total of 3 times (yeah, 3) and given it away just as much (same goes for Morrowind, but that's another story). The first time I knew it was shitty, and tossed it. Then the hype suckered me in again...Then I tossed it. Then they made a shiny gold package with the expansions, and I thought "Hmm..Maybe I should give it another chance."

Tossed it.

[edit] With all of this talk going on about this and that module, I've gotta admit: It all sounds very tempting...

But damnit, you're not fooling me this time.  :x


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Soln on August 26, 2005, 06:17:00 AM
NWN was pretty disappointing, I'm a Bioware fan.  I don't remember if I finished it (probably).  I could never, ever get over the shitty camera angle and the lack of 1stperson view option.  WTF?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Dren on August 26, 2005, 06:18:02 AM
I thought the game out of the box was fine, but not great.  I really liked the mod tools myself.  Of course, when you've spent 10+ hours on a module and sit back to take a rest and figure out you haven't made more than 30 minutes of content you get the feeling of a stone in your stomach.  Then you think of the fame and fortune you'll have when you get maybe 15 hours of content in by spending 100+ hours on it...  Oh, well there isn't any of that other than having people review your module and tell you either how great you are or how craptastic you are.

/uninstall

P.S.  If somebody offered me cash/hour to make modules, I'd be a happy nerd.  I'm not nerd enough to do it "just for the love."


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Sky on August 26, 2005, 07:11:35 AM
I hated NWN, but I only tried the stuff that came with it. I actually bought the wordbuilder guide and worked on a module for a few weeks. It's such a limited and crappy editor that I may as well not even have bothered. It should say on the package you need 3DSMax experience (or whatever). Playing with set pieces is not playing with legos.

There are a slew of better games to play, though they aren't customizable player-driven experiences. I've found 'player-driven' usually equates to 'shitty'. If someone told me there was a diamond ring in an olympic-sized pool of shit, I'd not go looking for it. Same goes for NWN player-made content.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Calantus on August 26, 2005, 08:40:35 AM
I actually played through and enjoyed the original campaign in NWN. I also listened to techno and dance music the whole time and played it like a hyped up diablo clone, but yeah...


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fargull on August 26, 2005, 08:43:31 AM
I never played the one that came with it.  I just built modules and a group of friends played through them.  To be honest, it was damn fun, not quite Diablo fun, but close.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Soln on August 26, 2005, 09:10:10 AM
sorry, to clarify, because Im a Bioware fanboya... the modelling editor was neat, but for me there was too much scripting and I dont want to spend my free time scripting something that I remember was buggy and the documentation was weak (had to buy a Prima guide I remember).  Anyways, it was the actual RPG included in as "NWN" I think I remember -- there was more than just the editor and tiles right?  It included some small campaign?  I really hated the semi-fly by camera angle in it I couldnt adjust (always overhead, looking into corridors through ceilings, exposing other rooms ahead, etc.).   Ya ya whine, more I know. 


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Xilren's Twin on August 26, 2005, 09:12:18 AM
While I realize we've had this discussion before  :-D  I still have a warm spot in my heart for NWN and still play it occasionally.  It is the closest thing to the middle of the road between a true Single player deep CRPG and a MMORPG thats out there today.

Yes, the real timey feel of combat does not flow like people think a D&D game should.
Yes, adding true customizable content (like a new monster model) is practically not doable for the average game.
Yes, you are stuck with the D&D corer ruleset in the engine.

Still, even with those limits, there is a HELL of a lot you can do with the game.

I have played some great player made modules (insert caveat of 90% or more being utter crap here), had some good multipler games, even tried some of the persistant worlds out there, tried making my own modules of course but that's very time consuming; never hosted a server, but ALL of it is worth a look.

IMHO simply b/c there really is so MUCH to try give it a go, TRY it.  Getting NWN and playing through the included campagins, and stopping there, is really missing the boat.  If you have the cash, for Gygax's sake at least TRY it and as many forms as you can before you throw it out.  It's one of the few innovative and daring approaches at the computer RPG space we've ever seen.

Xilren
PS One of my favorite modules is called Bone Kenning, where you got to play a necromancer.  Someone went all out to design a method you could create your own undead pets with different combinations of bones and such and other very nice touches.  I think that module shows what a talented module designer can do.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on August 26, 2005, 09:56:59 AM

Wouldn't playing Planescape Torment or Icewind Dale 1+2 be more fulfilling? Really. I mean NWN is the weakest of the Bioware products imho, and I was lined up on day one to get it. Talk about being ticked off when I started playing. It felt bad from "new game."

Not IWD 2, ugg.  That game left me with a hollow feeling.  There was some good, difficult encounters like you'd expect in an Icewind Dale game, but it ended rather suddenly and the plot was worse than you'd expect. It just seemed like a giant rush job.  I replayed IWD 1 several times, but I think I broke the IWD2 CD over my knee when I finished.

And Soln, which Bioware games had a first person perspective? I'm at a loss to think of one.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Soln on August 26, 2005, 11:14:26 AM

Wouldn't playing Planescape Torment or Icewind Dale 1+2 be more fulfilling? Really. I mean NWN is the weakest of the Bioware products imho, and I was lined up on day one to get it. Talk about being ticked off when I started playing. It felt bad from "new game."

Not IWD 2, ugg.  That game left me with a hollow feeling.  There was some good, difficult encounters like you'd expect in an Icewind Dale game, but it ended rather suddenly and the plot was worse than you'd expect. It just seemed like a giant rush job.  I replayed IWD 1 several times, but I think I broke the IWD2 CD over my knee when I finished.

And Soln, which Bioware games had a first person perspective? I'm at a loss to think of one.

ya that's needs context -- none, you're correct.  My complaint was that I found it after awhile unplayable to have the new rendering engine require a flyover mode behind your toon at an angle that exposed tiles ahead.  Wouldve preferred a means to lower beneath the ceiling and maybe a first person view.  Stupid criticism, but broke the game for me.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Furiously on August 26, 2005, 11:15:06 AM
NWN's should be - by all accounts be the funnest game there ever was. Only - it's not.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: WayAbvPar on August 26, 2005, 11:21:03 AM
NWN's should be all accounts be the funnest game there ever was. Only - it's not.

Amen. Such a great idea, but it just flat missed as far as I am concerned. If they could have somehow made the combat turn-based like ToEE, it could have been fun as hell. As it was, it was just a rabid clickfest. It felt like a cheap Diablo knockoff.

The editor was another failure. Not everyone has the time to learn a fucking scripting language just to make their own modules.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: HaemishM on August 26, 2005, 11:32:07 AM
It needed turn-based action. It also needed an editor that wasn't so goddamn buggy. I swear I burned a good 20 hours trying to create a module, only to find it got corrupted because the fucking program felt like. And that was on top of the 50-bazillion lockup crashes the thing gave me. A more user-friendly scripting system would have been nice as well.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Furiously on August 26, 2005, 11:45:03 AM
and maybe models with more then 12 polys.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on August 26, 2005, 12:43:03 PM
and maybe models with more then 12 polys.

You mean like WoW? I kid, I kid. Well, no, I don't kid. The models in WoW have about 24. ^_^


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: shiznitz on August 26, 2005, 12:44:41 PM
My issue with NWN was that combat took 3 seconds to resolve so most of one's playing time was walking around the map.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on August 26, 2005, 12:45:46 PM
Knockdown ruined this game.  Otherwise I enjoyed it thoroughly; of course this was during Iraqi Freedom and I had limited entertainment at the time (Yay Sand!).  Yet I will always remember it fondly, even though I have never looked at it since.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Nija on August 26, 2005, 12:58:34 PM
Knockdown was pretty fun. I had a blackguard / some other crap template on the DSO pvp nwn server (which had like 40-45 people on it primetime - not bad) that had something retarded like a 35% chance to knockdown each swing. Like 3 attacks / 2 seconds, stuff was over pretty fast.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on August 26, 2005, 01:02:35 PM
Knockdown was pretty fun. I had a blackguard / some other crap template on the DSO pvp nwn server (which had like 40-45 people on it primetime - not bad) that had something retarded like a 35% chance to knockdown each swing. Like 3 attacks / 2 seconds, stuff was over pretty fast.


It was a horrible design idea and completely unbalanced the game.  Try playing as a none knock down template.  Then again it was kinda fun playing as God, able to take down anything that stood in ones way.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: shiznitz on August 26, 2005, 02:11:07 PM
You have reminded me of the knockdown-retardedness. That was stupid.

I loved ToEE's d20 combat interpretation, though.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Nija on August 26, 2005, 02:22:32 PM
It was a horrible design idea and completely unbalanced the game.  Try playing as a none knock down template.  Then again it was kinda fun playing as God, able to take down anything that stood in ones way.

Right, but then imagine doing it to other people, over and over and over again. See? FUN!

I could still be 2-3 shotted by casters, though.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Alkiera on August 26, 2005, 02:24:20 PM
My issue with NWN was that combat took 3 seconds to resolve so most of one's playing time was walking around the map.

Welcome to D&D.  Heck, most PnP games are like this...  The vast majority of gaming sessions are spent in combat situations, because instead of travel times, you just say 'I go to Calmalot', and the GM says, 'Ok, 3 days pass, and you arrive in Calmalot'... in the vast majority of computer games, that doesn't work.  Daggerfall gets props for that.  It's something they left out of Morrowind, mostly because Morrowind was so much smaller.  The teleport service did shorten travel times, but wasn't quite the same thing.

Because of this, games have tried to streamline combat, to make it not drag on so long... resulting in computers being able to resolve combat very very fast.

Alkiera


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Kail on August 26, 2005, 03:03:51 PM

Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on August 26, 2005, 03:04:27 PM

Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.

Ahem, I do believe I voiced my support for this.  Just sayin'.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Bunk on August 26, 2005, 03:19:41 PM
My issue with NWN was that combat took 3 seconds to resolve so most of one's playing time was walking around the map.

Welcome to D&D.  Heck, most PnP games are like this...  The vast majority of gaming sessions are spent in combat situations, because instead of travel times, you just say 'I go to Calmalot', and the GM says, 'Ok, 3 days pass, and you arrive in Calmalot'... in the vast majority of computer games, that doesn't work.  Daggerfall gets props for that.  It's something they left out of Morrowind, mostly because Morrowind was so much smaller.  The teleport service did shorten travel times, but wasn't quite the same thing.

Because of this, games have tried to streamline combat, to make it not drag on so long... resulting in computers being able to resolve combat very very fast.

Alkiera

If you play Hordes through, and don't use a munchkinized monk/rogue/shadowdancer type character, many of the fights can be quite challenging and drawn out. It can also get rediculous though - had a fight against a Death Slaad or some such thing that took literally 30 mins to beat - it couldn't hurt me, but I could only get past its damage reduction on crits, and it regenerated 5hps a round. Ended up killing it by emptying 2 magic missile wands in to it.

I still reinstall NWN once in a while to play Hordes or the odd custom module. As to the complaints against the combat pace - I just hit pause after every round and think about things. Works for me.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Trippy on August 27, 2005, 03:45:21 AM
Hmm, okay, so, I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed Neverwinter Nights, but absolutely hated Jade Empire?  Probably want to disregard my opinion, then.
Well I didn't hate Jade Empire but I did think it was disappointing in many ways. I thought the combat was crap, the NPCs weren't nearly as interesting as they were in KotOR, and the alignment system was still the cliched "good" vs "evil" instead of drawing from the Chinese concepts of harmony and balance (Yin and Yang).


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Wasted on August 28, 2005, 12:38:22 AM
I'm one of those few people that prefered NWN to the holy Baldur's gate games, so I guess my views are all backwards but for what its worth...
The original campaign wasnt the best for sure but I did actually finish it which is rare for me.  Shadows of Undrentide was genuinely pretty fun through out the majority of it, with the module getting better as you progress along.  By the time Hordes of the Underdark came out I was pretty much over the game and couldn't get into it, same reason I havent tried the premium modules.  I played online for a while and while some where fun on a solo level most of the worlds I tried had some exploitable parts of it that most of the players would just abuse rather than play as intended.  The witches wake modules where ok but not great, I would have tried more of the player made ones but I lack the patience to wade through all the crap to find the good ones.

There are lots of ways the game could have been better, but for what it is I think the game is worth giving a fair chance to, especially if you arent shy to try out the player made content.  Overall I am happy with the purchase, it was a lot more value for money than many games I have bought.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on August 28, 2005, 01:04:21 AM
I liked Neverwinter Nights, but was always somewhat irritated that it didn't take into account efforts to cheat all the NPCs and get away with the maximum amount.

For example, in the initial campaign there's a quest to collect these artifacts hidden throughout the city for a good aligned religion.  An evil aligned priest approaches you and offers you more gold for the items if you bring them to him instead.

Being a thief, I did exactly that.  However, I was a thief who generally had a pretty good heart and didn't much mind screwing over evil people, so as soon as I handed him the items and got the gold from him, I'd pickpocket the items right back.  I then took them to the good aligned priest to find... he wouldn't take them.  Wouldn't even acknowledge that I had them in my inventory.  Bah.  Why let me pickpocket the items back in the first place, then?

Same deal for Shadows of Undrentide.  In the little showdown between the witch chick and the dragon, my goal was to kill them both and take their treasure.  I did it, but the game never really gave any recognition that I did it. 


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fabricated on August 28, 2005, 01:25:12 AM
I liked Neverwinter Nights, but was always somewhat irritated that it didn't take into account efforts to cheat all the NPCs and get away with the maximum amount.

For example, in the initial campaign there's a quest to collect these artifacts hidden throughout the city for a good aligned religion. An evil aligned priest approaches you and offers you more gold for the items if you bring them to him instead.

Being a thief, I did exactly that. However, I was a thief who generally had a pretty good heart and didn't much mind screwing over evil people, so as soon as I handed him the items and got the gold from him, I'd pickpocket the items right back. I then took them to the good aligned priest to find... he wouldn't take them. Wouldn't even acknowledge that I had them in my inventory. Bah. Why let me pickpocket the items back in the first place, then?

Same deal for Shadows of Undrentide. In the little showdown between the witch chick and the dragon, my goal was to kill them both and take their treasure. I did it, but the game never really gave any recognition that I did it.
Play some of the user-made, thief-oriented modules. Seriously.

I gotta link to the vault since it's the only place to really get most modules, but trust me, they're good.

Honor Among Thieves: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=3627
Basically the most open-ended in terms of plot. You can be as dirty as you want. Being the light-hearted kleptomaniac or the filthy greedy murderous rogue is perfectly doable. Amazingly the author did all of the scripting 100% on his own, instead of slapping 500 haks together into a slow clusterfuck of a module. Tons of shit to do, a real emphasis on thief skills, and a neat plot to boot.

In the Company of Thieves 1 and 2:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1158
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1160
This is more for people who play the "good" rogues who prefer being Robin Hood type thieves that steal from the rich and give to themselves and have a good moral compass outside of the kleptomania.

Very comedic at times. Especially number 2, which has a great section with a busted carnival ride called "It's a small realm after all", complete with awful looping music.

Elegia and Excrucio Eternum:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=2863
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=2865

Elegia Eternum is pretty straightforward and focuses on story and combat over thief stuff, but its got honest-to-god voice acting (and it's not half bad either), a good plot, and helps explain part of the second module.

Excrucio Eternum is MUCH darker, and much more involved, allowing pretty much all classes to make use of their skills (the most creative and disgusting use of the Pick Pocket skill I have ever seen occurs in this module). More RPing in the way of choosing your alignment is allowed, and there are a fair amount of puzzles. Just a really cool module. Worth the price of NWN in my opinion.

Halo of Flies / Shadow from a Soul on Fire:
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=80
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=1927

Not really class oriented in any way, they're just both very good modules.

I played a character from level 1 up all the way through these modules. I played them through in such an order so that all of these could logically occur in the same timeline for my character (which makes my PC very fucking disaster prone), which I thought was pretty cool for some reason.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on August 28, 2005, 03:17:11 AM
Thanks for the tips, I'll pick them up sometime when I'm in a NWN mood.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Sky on August 28, 2005, 10:13:03 AM
Hey, thanks for the heads-up on those adventures, Fabricated! I might actually reinstall this game now.

 :rock:


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Pococurante on August 29, 2005, 09:22:01 AM
NWN is fatally, fatally flawed as a D&D product.  It just flat out doesn't work.  I could go into why, but I'm not going to.  We've done this one to death so many times.

And fatally flawed as a tool for a GM to manipulate real-time.  It's great if one likes the module/short story paradigm.


Title: Foreverwinter Nights
Post by: dusematic on September 03, 2005, 11:43:27 PM
I got the idea to play NWN from this board.  It seemed like a good idea.  $30 dollars for the Platinum Edition, and a chance to work a character up through Epic levels.  It'll be just like the wonderful PnP campaign I never had. 

I started a Ranger, and then realized how much of an asshole I was, and deleted him.  Then I started a somewhat less irritating Rogue named Crenshaw with a penchant for dual-wielding.  The tutorial was fun. 

The game lets you have henchmen.  I should rephrase.  The game lets you have a henchman.  Rogues in this game are all about sneak attacks (I know, it's crazy).  So what the hell, I'm basically forced to have a warrior henchman.  I need a shield to anchor the enemies on; or my thief is worthless.  Even so, landing sneak attacks every time, I'm not outdamaging my henchman, who ostensibly is wearing the same equipment he had at level 1 (and is always 1 level below you).  If, for some reason (like being effective) I decided to make a warrior, then I'd clearly need a rogue henchman.

I say clearly because everything is locked.  The doors are locked.  The chests are locked.  The wardrobes are locked.  The fucking desks are locked.  And they're all trapped.  There are at least 4 things to unlock and de-trap in each room.  This doesn't happen instantaneously, rather, it takes about 10 seconds.  That may not sound like a lot to you, 10 seconds, big deal. Wrong.  I thought Dundeon Siege was bad, clicking on 87 barrels every other screen.  Imagine if every barrel in Dungeon Siege took 10 seconds to break. 


I just don't see how it would be possible to make it through the game without a rogue.  You'd just be blundering along stumbling into traps and getting fucked up.  Even with my rogue in detect mode, I will occassionally not see a trap and pay the consequences.  Not that dying really matters, you lose 50 xp a level, and 10% of your gold.  And I'm not some crazed douche who likes to have the tender insides of his asshole branded as punishment for dying either.  But, at level 8 I have 22,000 gold.  Are you shitting me?  There's nothing to spend it on except for potions, and I rarely need to buy any, because I find them all the time.  I've been to every shop, I got all +1's baby.  50 XP a level?  That's like six extra zombies I have to kill.  You can save the game anywhere, so you only take the death penalty if you forgot.  The sweetest part is fighting a boss and then using your stone of recall midway through the fight to...make the game pointless?  After you're done shopping you can hop back into the fight fully healed. 

The alignment system?  I like it.  I like killing old men and robbing hookers.  We all do.  But my alignment is only going to shift -3 towards evil after I extort a nobleman on pain of death, and then kill him anyway?  Really?  I had always assumed it would be so much more than that.  I've killed children, robbed from beggars, pick pocketed women, and then killed them too.  Everytime I complete a quest, I greedily ask for more money and then whether they give it to me or not I scream "THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!"  Lady Aribeth speaks very highly of me.  It's ridiculous.

The combat is boring.  I have no abilities.  I just let my incredibly articulate half-orc friend (I'm not being sarcastic) wade into battle, and then I unleash my arsenal of sneak attacks.  Since those happen automatically, the game manages to be less involved than Dungeon Siege. Since it's late, and this post is already pathetic, I'll wrap this up. 

Story.  I don't know whether it was more improbable that I find a small boy running a huge shop in the bottom of a cultist's dungeon or that the illest boss I've fought so far "Desther" (under the color coding scheme, he was purple, which means he was at least 5 levels higher than me, under the category of impossible, and the description "death is guaranteed") GAVE UP after I got him down to the status of BARELY INJURED.  He just gave up, said "you win, I'll come with you now so that I can be executed by Lord Neverwinter" and then I watched a cinematic about it.  Myth had better cinematics.


I'm so pissed, and I'm holding those (you know who you are) that played decisive roles in portraying this game in a good light on these boards responsible for the 30 beans and the Saturday I'll never get back.



Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on September 03, 2005, 11:54:52 PM
Did you ignore the plethora of folks that said the included campaign is shit? Check. Did you ignore all of the talk that the combat isn't great? Check. Fuck, the writing was on the wall that NWN isn't a game for everyone and probably half of anyone that's played it (including the expansions) didn't like it.

This really didn't need to be it's own topic. I probably should have just chucked it in the den for the added joy of all of the fucked up italics scratching my cornea. 


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on September 04, 2005, 03:24:33 AM
And yes, the Barbarian henchman is completely fucking unbalanced.  He speaks decently because he was raised with humans, not orcs.

It's quite reasonable to get through the game without a rogue.  A monk or barbarian, for instance, can usually run right through those traps without flinching.  For locked stuff, nearly any spellcaster can get an unlocking spell, or at the very least one that blows shit up if you don't feel like bothering with the actual lock.  And 99% of the time, bothering with the locked stuff isn't really worth it unless you're an explorer type.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: dusematic on September 04, 2005, 08:24:11 AM
Did you ignore the plethora of folks that said the included campaign is shit? Check. Did you ignore all of the talk that the combat isn't great? Check. Fuck, the writing was on the wall that NWN isn't a game for everyone and probably half of anyone that's played it (including the expansions) didn't like it.

This really didn't need to be it's own topic. I probably should have just chucked it in the den for the added joy of all of the fucked up italics scratching my cornea. 



I thought this forum was the place to bitch about how much you hate games?  That said, I don't really care where you put my post; but I would like to point out that you said you "had a lot of fun with NWN Gold + Horde of the Underdark.  Shadows of Undrentide wasn't that bad but HOU was really a lot of fun"  Just saying.  That (and others) helped give me the impression the game was good.


Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on September 04, 2005, 08:56:53 AM

I thought this forum was the place to bitch about how much you hate games?  That said, I don't really care where you put my post; but I would like to point out that you said you "had a lot of fun with NWN Gold + Horde of the Underdark.  Shadows of Undrentide wasn't that bad but HOU was really a lot of fun"  Just saying.  That (and others) helped give me the impression the game was good.

I was being specific for a reason.  SOU was decent and HOU was fun as far as modules go.  The regular campaign was crap on a stick and it had hordes of balance problems.

FYI, no problem with the bitching, that's par for the course here.  Just didn't need its own thread, not a problem, I can and do fix that. 

Quote
Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

I played as a monk one time and a sorcerer the next.  Both characters made it through quite fine and a majority of the lockables were able to be opened with various means.  Of course, with SOU there's a cleric/rogue henchman you can use. Quite a handy character to have and by the time you're using HOU you can have 2 henchmen.  Still, not as good as a 5-6 person group for covering your bases, but it's sufficient.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 04, 2005, 09:56:01 AM
I'm still waiting for the next awesome game in the spirit of the Infinity Engine greats.

Dungeon Siege 2 has catassry built into it; you have to beat the game Twice to be able to use 6-person parties. Even in DS1 I could use 8 without beating the game.  I like the game, but it just doesn't scratch that itch for full party supremacy.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Stormwaltz on September 04, 2005, 10:41:38 AM
Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

I played through the OC with a rogue. But I'm well known for my tendency to play gimp characters.

I quit when I was somewhere over 10 rogue / 3 Shadowdancer (midway through chapter 4), and I was doing all right. You do need a meat shield, preferably the barbarian or monk, to grab aggro so you can swing around behind and get your sneak attack bonus damage. If you really want to solo, the Shadowdancer's "Hide in Plain Sight" feat lets you snipe, disappear right in front of the AI, snipe again, etc. The rogue, AFAIK, isn't supposed to be a powerplayer in D&D. You can certainly kill anything a fighter can, but you need a bit more patience and planning. Ah - and dont' forget to use traps if you've got them. Steath yourself and lay down a line of them, then grab aggro and lead the enemy over them. That's the only way I could get past the water elemental in Chapter 4 - the damned thing kept one-shot drowning me *and* my big burly half-orc henchman.

I have some beefs with the way the alignment system is utilized in the OC myself. The final straw was when I let an escaped felon go who had only killed people because they'd tortured and murdered his parents. I got hit with evil points instead of chaotic points. Swha?

Since coming to Bio, I've learned many things about the production of the game. I can't tell you any of them. I can say that when I mentioned I was playing through NWN, I was repeatedly told to skip the OC and play SoU - or better, HotU.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 04, 2005, 11:44:05 AM
So basically, Bioware said their own material was garbage?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Kail on September 04, 2005, 12:55:08 PM
I have some beefs with the way the alignment system is utilized in the OC myself. The final straw was when I let an escaped felon go who had only killed people because they'd tortured and murdered his parents. I got hit with evil points instead of chaotic points. Swha?

As far as I know, at no point in the original campaign is it possible to gain or loose points along the lawful/chaotic axis.  Which is... yeah, wierd.

As far as dusematic's post:

Rogues, in my opinion, are underpowered in the original single player campaign.  In multiplayer, if you've got a party, you can do some nice work supporting them (especially once you get those crazy high level sneak attack bonuses), but in single player, you've got trouble.  You do the same damage as any other melee class (minus the strength bonus, probably), but you can't wear better than leather armor.  You basically can't sneak at all, since your big ol' henchman will continue to trundle around behind you in plain sight (even if you take the thief henchman), and a lot of boss fights are initiated by scripted events that will break stealth.  As an aside, while a lot of stuff is locked, most henchmen have some way of dealing with it (the bard can pick locks, for example, even though that's not a class skill for bards), so you can cut down on cleanup time by ordering them to take care of half the traps while you do likewise.

A Rogue's strength is not really in his combat ability, it's more focused on his very high number of skill points per level.  Rogues can master a large array of skills that can help a party, but they aren't so hot on their own.  If you're looking for a class that can kick serious ass in melee combat, look at Fighters or Monks or Barbarians.  If you're looking for a class with a lot of options open to them, try one of the magic using classes (Mage, Sorcerer, Cleric maybe, Bard if you don't mind dying), which also have the advantage of AOE untrap/unlock spells.  Rogues are useful to have around, but if you're playing by yourself, you'd probably have more fun playing as a Barbarian or something and hiring the Rogue sidekick to do all the untrapping, rather than vice-versa.

Again, the game is a lot more fun, in my opinion, if you can get in a multiplayer game with a friend.  I played this game with someone I played PnP D&D with, and it's about ten times as interesting.  Since you can each take a sidekick, even one other person brings your party size up to four, which makes being a rogue (or a bard or whatever support class you want) a lot more workable.  Four people looting a room makes the whole thing over pretty quick.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on September 04, 2005, 03:03:24 PM
Llava, are you saying I picked the wrong class to play with?  I had a sneaking suspicion that may have been the case, but there's no way I'll ever know for sure.  As far as opening every chest, you're right, it's not worth it.  I guess I just feel desperate to justify picking a rogue.

Not at all.  I loved playing a Rogue in that game.  It's my favorite class.  Elven rogues are particularly effective because their "Detect Mode" is always on, and you can see those traps or secret passages from a mile away.  Plus what's a lot of fun is not just disarming the traps, but salvaging them and replacing them somewhere else, then luring enemies through them.  I killed more than a few very tough monsters by setting up a gauntlet of traps down a hallway, plinking them with an arrow, then leading them through.  "Huh?  Oh, I wasn't supposed to kill the ancient red dragon?  Oops."

But yes, it takes a while before your damage starts to ramp up.  Fighters and Barbarians start off much more effective, but there were a number of times that I'd have my henchman stay behind and I'd sneak up on an enemy and kill them with a single sneak attack.

Some of your complaints, though, sound like Rogue really isn't the class you want to play, it just seems like you feel obligated to play one because you "need" to be able to pick locks and disarm traps.  Not so.  Play what you want, with a little creativity I think you'll find the game actually does allow for a great deal of flexibility.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fabricated on September 04, 2005, 04:49:44 PM
So basically, Bioware said their own material was garbage?
I viewed the original game as a module kind of tacked on to say, "This is part of what you can do with the toolset."


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 04, 2005, 04:57:01 PM
I know that, but BioWare is usually not one to half-ass something.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Jain Zar on September 04, 2005, 07:19:34 PM
The only good real time combat in RPGs are the ones where I have DIRECT control over my character.  Otherwise make it turn based.  Especially in D20 D&D which is a wargame where (in tabletop land anyhow..)  roleplaying breaks out from time to time.

The Infinity Engine games would have been better with turn based combat, especially given how cheesy most of the BG2 and IWD2 fights were.  Basically designed as a "Dying every fight and reload knowing what to do) situation.

NWN's combat was similar, cept you had less to keep track of and could win most minor fights without trouble.  I tended to play fighter/thief, Bards, and I don't think I made it far in Underdark at all, but I think I was going Shapeshifter or Dragon D.

But don't give me radial shit menus either.  Temple of Elemental Evil was one colossal letdown.  Its clear the time they spent not dealing with bugs of making any meaningful questing in that game wasn't spent playing any console turn based strategy RPGs or I dunno, FUCKING X COM so its combat and roleplaying blew giant moose weenie.  Troika deserved to die, and I hope they burn in bad game design Hell.  Right next to Acclaim.

Shit, just have someone modernize the old Gold Box games.  Be the best damned D&D RPG out there.

What it would have:
MULTIPLE PARTY MEMBERS.  I hate solo quests.  Hell, any party smaller than 5 is dull.  I want giant street fights with party flexibility.  Yeah yeah.  We need the Fighter/MU/Cleric/Thief archetypes in the team.  I would also like other builds and to tweak things a bit.  Small parties don't allow this.

Isometric/3d turn based combat with either fast intuitive console tbsrpg menus or a streamlined easy to use X Com styled interface.
Especially in D20.  I don't feel like clicking EVERY TURN to make sure I have power attack, or charge, or whatever other tactic I want to use.  REMEMBER THE LAST TURN DEVELOPERS.  Destructible enviroments are a plus.  If a 386 can handle it there is NO reason modern games can't.

A decent story I can affect.  Don't give me uncontrollable linearity.  PLEASE.  I understand if there has to be some structure, but there can be a happy medium between aimless neverending sandbox and on rails might as well be Dragon's Lair!

NO ANIME BULLSHIT.  I do not wish to controll an orphaned teenaged boy swordsman who ends up with the demure teenaged girl with the personality of a 50's sitcom wife thank you.  And we don't always need to save the entire fucking planet either.  Why not just save Sheboygan or Uncle Fred's Liquor Store for a change?  And please let adults be worthwhile.  Most teenagers I have known are lucky they can wipe their own asses.  Being the shining bright hero?  Not so much.

NO CATASSING.  I should never see a pointless random combat, fetch quest, or have to replay things just to get it right or to buff up for the next fight.  I am happy to complete your tightly balanced campaign without having to do sidequests, or go to some level up dungeon or item world.  Leave these things available for me should my tactical skills be poor, or my mania for completing every sidequest be overwhelming, but don't force me into story destroying catassery just so I can beat the cheesy boss.

CHARACTER CREATION.  I like making my own dudes and dudettes.  Please let me do so.  It is fun.  Oh yeah, and let me dress them appropriately.  Stop designing combat clothing inspired by the Phantom Lady, FFX-2, and Clyde Caldwell.  Armor needs to actually COVER VITAL AREAS.  My mecha pilot with the glasses doesn't need to show off her midriff when she hops out of the 100 ton death beast to infiltrate the evil base.  Her belly button is cuter when it wouldn't be burned off via flamethrowers.  Kevlar with a heat resistant overcoat is much better thanks.

SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF.  I don't care how many hit points you have.  Some asshole with a gun is still deadly.  When the fucking N GAGE can make a strategy RPG work with realistic guns I am sure you megamillion dollar developers with years of experience can outdo a bunch of Finns (IIRC) who made a little mobile phone game.  Also see my mentions of retarded clothing, catassing, and anime teenage bullshit for other ideas.  Oh yeah, and if the king wants me to save his country?  Give me more than 5 bucks to do it.  You have a castle and a guard.  Requisition the shopkeeps to give me some REAL GEAR.  If this screws up your design, find a more realistic way to have a street bum save the planet.  Like he escaped from jail for a crime he didn't commit or something. 

I HAVE A LIFE.  100 hours is NOT a buying point for me.  Its the reason Dragon Warrior 7 bombed in the US.  Its the reason few people actually finished Morrowind (ok, I would give a few dozen other reasons why that game blew, but thats besides the point.), and many other games go uncompleted.  You spent money on that ending cinematic.  You want people to see it.  Don't be like the Ninja Gaiden and Ghosts & Goblins developers.  Make the difficulty reasonable and the timeframe to completion sane.  That other 50 hours?  Probably fat anyhow.  Cut the good parts into a same engine sequel for next year.  MONEY IN THE BANK. 



Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 04, 2005, 08:22:12 PM
Just for reference, most (if not all) Infinity Engines games had auto-pause options to automatically pause after each combat round. I personally never used that particular option, instead deigning to just pause whenever I felt I needed to.

Also, most of those games had a much lower time-to-completion if you did just the central story line....but who does that? BioWare sidequests are usually pretty good.

All this talk REALLY makes me want to go through the entire BG saga again, and whoop some ass in IWD 1 and 2.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Calantus on September 05, 2005, 12:19:26 AM
All this talk REALLY makes me want to go through the entire BG saga again, and whoop some ass in IWD 1 and 2.

The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 05, 2005, 12:21:09 AM
The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/

Blasphemy!

That's like saying a classic car "sucks" because it doesn't have EFI or airbags.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: stray on September 05, 2005, 01:34:31 AM
BG: DA. Now there's a Baldur's Gate that I can really enjoy (if only the overall game was as deep and long as the PC titles).

* Yeah, I know. It barely qualifies as "D&D" to a lot people's minds. Then again, most D&D crpg's, and many PC rpgs in general, barely qualify as "video games" in my mind.

Anyways, I agree with Jain on both points (even if Dark Alliance isn't what he was exactly talking about in terms of real time rpg combat).  Give me full control of my character, or just make it turn based. And by turn based, not ToEE either. X-Com is right on the money. Even though it's a strategy, that would probably translate the fun of pnp combat better than any other rpg out there.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on September 05, 2005, 01:41:30 AM
The problem with that is BG1 "sucks" after BG2. All the little things they did to make BG2 more user friendly really hit hom ewhne you go back. :/

Blasphemy!

That's like saying a classic car "sucks" because it doesn't hace EFI or airbags.

He's got a point though, BG2 improves on BG1 in every aspect.  There's not one thing BG1 does that BG2 doesn't blow out of the water. 

I've been playing a lot of old RPGs I've missed (some Japanese translations) and revisting some old favorites on an emulator.  There's just been a whole lot of improvements over time in the genre that make these games a lot more fun.  They're good games, but compared to modern day RPGs the experience can tend to "suck" a little.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Astorax on September 05, 2005, 01:48:47 AM
The real meat of NWN was in the toolset and the customizability of the game in general.

Granted, it isn't for the feint of heart, as it takes quite a bit of hackage to get things going...BUT, the ability to create total conversion games with it is fairly impressive.  I'm working on a turn based Bloodbowl game using the NWN engine and the toolset.  Also have the prelim ideas for turn based battletech in 3d with it as well...complete with hit locations...when I have the time.  Not sure where it's all gonna come from though.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 05, 2005, 01:00:25 PM
Speaking of which, I practically had to hack BG to get it installed, and the BG2 main menu freaks out, but once I get past the front page of it, it's fine.


Now I just need to find the time to start a character in BG, go through that entire game (Plus TotSC), and then import the toon in BG2 and go through SoA and ToB.

I really wanted to try an evil wizard -> Sorcorer.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: stray on September 05, 2005, 01:05:51 PM
I really wanted to try an evil wizard -> Sorcorer.

Hmm, bad choice. I suggest evil wizard -> Sorcerer if you really want to get anywhere.  :evil:


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on September 09, 2005, 08:14:18 PM
I've been going through BG1 again, and lemme tell you....

Low-end D&D is Tough. At least in IWD games I can make most of my characters start as fighters and than dual-class them into the class I really want.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Samprimary on September 10, 2005, 01:44:57 PM
I played through NWN as a 50/50 split between warrior and rogue. The combination was excellently complimentary and the capacities of both classes augmented each other significantly. This means I progressed in all skills every two levels as opposed to one (thankfully, you can save skill points between levels. I only ever bought one skill during the warrior level turns, this being Discipline).

By the end, I was dual-wielding Weapon Focus'd Weapon Specialization'd Improved Critical'd Improved Two Weapon Fighting'd bastard swords with 5d6 sneak attack damage who would sneak up right next to you and get X number of sneak attacks on a flatfooted opponent. This as a character with essentially maxed-out sneaking capacity, maxed out disable device, maxed out sensory capacities, maxed out lockpicking, etc. Warriors also benefit extraordinarily from improved reflex saves and Uncanny Dodge, to say nothing of Evasion (and eventually Improved Evasion)

I played without henchmen, and never really saw a need for having one. I figured it would just be overkill.

When I got the underdark expansion, I re-did this, but then did it again where I started the rogue/warrior progression upon reaching epic level.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: schild on September 10, 2005, 02:00:23 PM
Go go team munchkin.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fabricated on September 10, 2005, 02:39:57 PM
Jesus, the most I did was playing a Rogue specialized in Kukris. They start with an increased threat range to begin with, and with weapon focus/specialization, and eventually a keen Kukri, you crit nearly every hit.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Samprimary on September 10, 2005, 07:18:23 PM
Go go team munchkin.

Naah, munchkin would've been if I was a cleric, runnin' round casting Harm on anything that caused me problems.

... a dual-bastard-sword wielding cleric. Yeah.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on September 12, 2005, 03:27:37 AM
Jesus, the most I did was playing a Rogue specialized in Kukris. They start with an increased threat range to begin with, and with weapon focus/specialization, and eventually a keen Kukri, you crit nearly every hit.

Kukri rogues are fun, especially when you kill that one Kukri wielding rogue boss and pick up his two glowy Kukris- Hate and Strife.  I kept those weapons until the end of the game, just upgraded them in the underworld.  Tons of fun.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Ironwood on September 12, 2005, 04:24:17 AM
Dual Rapiers for Teh Win.

Oh, and Fighter/Rogue/Assasin for the double + Gud.

That was part of the problem of playing through the good campaign in NWN.  You loved the journey and the fun, but when you killed that last demon at the end (OMG SPOILERZZ) you looked at your character and his godlike abilities and powers and equipment and you thought :   "I am a huge munchkin Douche."

Still.  I have no shame.  I made the same guy for ToEE.  At least in that I got to flank the mofos.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Kail on September 12, 2005, 12:18:40 PM
Dual Rapiers for Teh Win.

Seriously?  About half of all my characters used rapiers, 'cause they're the strongest weapon you can use with weapon finesse (as far as I know) and I was always being outdamaged by the rest of my party.  I never got the funds to upgrade it to a plus ten or anything, but all the named rapiers I found were all cardboard pieces of crap, and I couldn't keep up with people using longswords (say nothing of the heavier stuff).  Was there some awesome one I missed, or something?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Samwise on September 12, 2005, 10:36:44 PM
Rapiers work better if you've got a few levels of rogue, since the extra sneak attack damage more than makes up for the lower base damage.  Weapon specialization also helps a lot, since you get that +2 damage with every attack, and if you've got Improved Two-Weapon Fighting that's two extra attacks per round on top of the four or however many you get normally.

My uber swashbuckler build, FWIW, was something like 11 fighter/5 rogue/4 ranger.  Rogue for evasion, sneak attack and uncanny dodge, ranger for two weapon fighting, and fighter for BAB, weapon specialization, and bonus feats.  When I started the build I expected to be pretty gimped compared to a straight-up fighter, since I'd never made a swashbuckler character work in D&D just using existing classes, but the combination worked really well.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Ironwood on September 13, 2005, 03:58:51 AM
Dual Rapiers for Teh Win.

Seriously?  About half of all my characters used rapiers, 'cause they're the strongest weapon you can use with weapon finesse (as far as I know) and I was always being outdamaged by the rest of my party.  I never got the funds to upgrade it to a plus ten or anything, but all the named rapiers I found were all cardboard pieces of crap, and I couldn't keep up with people using longswords (say nothing of the heavier stuff).  Was there some awesome one I missed, or something?

Yeah.  There were two exceptionally good rapiers in the game as far as I can remember.  I'll maybe reinstall and copy my character over to have a look.  Bear in mind also that Rapiers have a bigger threat (I think) and if you couple that with weapon finesse and Keen and improved crit, you're really steaming in there with 28-30 Dex.  Also, due to NWN and it's SHITTY SHITTY Sneak attack, you'd be regularly maiming on your first attack - which had about 19 strikes.  OK, maybe not that much, but it was a lot.

I took the fighter levels for the Dual weilding and cool combat feats, like combat reflexes and the like, the rogue levels for the skills and the sneakiness and the assasin levels because it was just going that way anyway.

To be honest with you, if you really want to talk about the effectiveness of the classes, you'd be better referencing ToEE.  It was the most faithful adaptation I've seen yet and the stuff my rogue could pull off at LEVEL SEVEN was totally Gud.  Tumble was in and worked - so you could just somersault over the fighter and combatants head, flank em and sneak their arse for ungodly threat.

So much geek, so little time....


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Alkiera on September 13, 2005, 05:29:07 AM
In my latest run, I'm playing as a half-elven paladin.  I'm just starting HotU, and even with the subpar equipment I've been able to pick up since I was robbed, my resists and AC are pretty high.  Crank up the Str and Cha, and I regularly just walk thru traps, because I save 95% of the time, and the damage is only so much against my fighter-class hp.  By the end of HotU, I exxpect to have something in the mid 40's for AC, and somewhere in the 30's for most of my resists.

Alkiera


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Llava on September 13, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
Yeah, by the end of HotU your character is a huge munchkin douche, sure, but you can enslave the demon to take over the world so at least they let you munchkin the right way.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Bunk on September 16, 2005, 12:26:14 PM
My HotU Munchkin was something along the lines of Ranger 1(for free dual wield) Rogue 9 and Shadowdancer 10. Dual weild rapiers that critted on 13 - 20, massive sneak attack damage, and the ultimate munchkiny skill of all: Hide in Plain Site. You sneak up, hit for a sneak attack crit, immediately hide before they hit back. Rinse an repeat. Add in a pack full of lev 9 mage scrolls that I could use as a rogue.

Good times.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on December 31, 2005, 11:56:03 AM
NECRO


Just picked up the Diamond compliation, which includes NWN, both expansions, Kingmaker, ShadowGuard, and Witch's Wake.

I know there's still at least one person around here who putzes around with this. Any suggestions on good modules, especially for 2 players? Got a buddy who I'd like to play this with, and I need good modules, dangit.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Fabricated on December 31, 2005, 03:24:12 PM
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=4562.msg112116#msg112116

Dunno how 2 player friendly they are overall, but those're my favorite modules.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on December 31, 2005, 06:24:11 PM
Ugh, I tried going through Kingmaker. Very early, towards the end of the first conversation you have inside the Keep walls, someone comes up to me to start a conversation after the 3 other people leave...and the programs just dumps me to the desktop.

These are supposed to be the "professional" modules...wtf is with the bug (and yes, I ran the update)?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: El Gallo on December 31, 2005, 08:37:50 PM
I just played the pirate module; it was pretty decent.  I didn't have any bugs when I played Kingmaker, so can't help you there except to say that the pirate one is better.



Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Kitsune on January 03, 2006, 01:14:15 AM
I'm probably gonna pick up the diamond version with all the expansions tomorrow, the shifter prestige class sings a siren song to me.  I played a friend's copy back at release and saw first hand just how shitty the original game's quest was, so I intend to play with the expansions and fan modules.  Does anyone have a recommendation of the best order to play them in for a decent level progression?  I wouldn't wanna be facing level 3 orcs with a level 23 angel of death, sorta spoils the challenge.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Alkiera on January 03, 2006, 07:23:51 AM
I'm probably gonna pick up the diamond version with all the expansions tomorrow, the shifter prestige class sings a siren song to me.  I played a friend's copy back at release and saw first hand just how shitty the original game's quest was, so I intend to play with the expansions and fan modules.  Does anyone have a recommendation of the best order to play them in for a decent level progression?  I wouldn't wanna be facing level 3 orcs with a level 23 angel of death, sorta spoils the challenge.

If you start in the first expansion(SoU), then move to the 2nd expansion(HotU), that should take you up to 22 or 24 or so.  As for those other modules, depends on what the level recommendations are for them.  If they are above level 1, the easiest way to do that would be to, when you go from one module to the next in the expansion compaign, export your character just after arriving in the next module, then go play the random module, export at the end, then restart the compaign module you'd exported from with the newest version of your character.  You generally can't start a campaign module in the middle until you've gotten to it normally, so you need to do that first export after the module switch(you can usually tell due to Bioware putting videos at the begining, among other hints).

Alkiera


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: pants on January 04, 2006, 02:22:22 AM
Ugh, I tried going through Kingmaker. Very early, towards the end of the first conversation you have inside the Keep walls, someone comes up to me to start a conversation after the 3 other people leave...and the programs just dumps me to the desktop.

These are supposed to be the "professional" modules...wtf is with the bug (and yes, I ran the update)?

I found similar problems after installing Diamond version.  A bit of forum digging found that the Diamond version has some new graphics shinies, and they can be cantankerous in particular on ATI systems.  So for a while my system was really instable - complete with a few hard crashes (ie reset button at front of pc).  After a lot of pissing around (including a new Win XP install, it was due for a refresh anyway), finally updating the chipset drivers on my motherboard (nForce 2 here) got it working fine, and has been rock solid ever since.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Strazos on January 04, 2006, 11:45:06 AM
Ah ha!

For the past few weeks I've had horrible XP desktop problems, hangs, etc. Oddly enough, even though the occurances are somewhat random, once I get a game to launch, the system still performs perfectly - it's only when I am playing with things on my desktop that things get wonky.

I already ran an extensive diagnostic on my RAM modules, and they check out. I have no viruses/spyware, and I even repaired my XP boot sector. I imagine any problems with the CPU itself would simply cause the system to not work.

Which nForce2 drivers would you suggest? I'm currently using a Asus A7N8X mobo.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: pants on January 04, 2006, 01:21:29 PM

Which nForce2 drivers would you suggest? I'm currently using a Asus A7N8X mobo.

I just did the boring newb thing and went to my MB manufacter's site, EpoX here in my case, and just downloaded the latest version of the drivers for my particular MB.  Installed em, rebooted, and its all sweet now.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Tebonas on January 04, 2006, 10:55:30 PM
Neverwinter Nights on my computers has a glitch that can detect the wrong amount of RAM on my ATI cards. If you change the amount in the ini per hand it runs rock solid and hasn't all those graphics glitches and freezes. Never found out if its the game or a particular set of mobo drivers. I edit it, it works (2 different Asus Moterboards and two different ATI cards, one AGP, one PCIe).


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: dusematic on November 08, 2006, 11:28:01 AM
Necro.  Hey I have a question about this game.  If you want to get a feat that requires a prerequisite of a minimum stat level, does that need to be the base stat or will magic items boosting the stat at the time of the level up allow you to select the feat?


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: geldonyetich on November 08, 2006, 11:29:23 AM
Base stats are all that apply to all aspects of advancement.  Otherwise we'd have people donning intelligence gear right before every level up in order to max out their skill points.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: dusematic on November 08, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
Shit.  So that mean I can never be a weaponmaster since I have 10 intelligence.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on November 08, 2006, 02:43:12 PM
Shit.  So that mean I can never be a weaponmaster since I have 10 intelligence.

I imagine there's a console cheat.

DING DING DING.  (http://www.consolecheatcodes.com/pc/neverwinternightscheats.html)


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on November 08, 2006, 02:44:43 PM
Let me see if I undersetand correctly; this is like NWN1, but with a better plot? 

Wrong thread, my bad.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Rasix on November 08, 2006, 02:45:20 PM
Let me see if I undersetand correctly; this is like NWN1, but with a better plot? 

Wrong thread.

BTW, CLOWNS SCARE ME.


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Cheddar on November 08, 2006, 02:46:31 PM
Let me see if I undersetand correctly; this is like NWN1, but with a better plot? 

Wrong thread.

BTW, CLOWNS SCARE ME.

Christ you greens are fucking FAST.  30 seconds; you are closing in on Schilds record!


Title: Re: Neverwinter Nights; Is it worth it?
Post by: Yegolev on November 10, 2006, 07:31:28 AM
When you turn green, you get a tub of lube as well.