f13.net

Here you go.  I'll post something when I get back from lunch.

So, post spoilers from any and every Harry Potter book at will.

OK, here are some of my spoilerific thoughts:

I didn't like the breakup scene with Ginny and Harry at the end.  It felt way too Spiderman-ish for me.   Plus, I was a bit confused, did she actually agree to it, because it didn't seem like she was.  It almost seemed as though she was comfortable resigning herself to share whatever fate Harry was destined toward.  I think I need to re-read that scene. 

Plus, it doesn't make much sense to do that.  Voldemort doesn't seem to single out people based on links of kinship and love.  He just kills whomever is in his way.   He woudn't think to kidnap or kill someone's love interest because he doesn't understand or care about such connections.  Of course, this wouldn't stop the Death Eaters from using such tactics as Lucious Malfoy had in the past.  And Harry ignores the one thing that Dumbledore impresses on him as his advantage over Voldemort: love.  Harry missing the point is par for the course, but what else can you expect from a 16 year old kid with raging hormones that has the entire fate of a people on his shoulders.  However, this year he did a better job of identifying his most immediate threat with Draco.

Snape as the Half-blood Prince was perfect.  A student that was brilliant with potions and had a huge curious streak when it came to the Dark Arts. At first reading it came down to only two choices for me, Voldemort or Snape and I thought they'd be going to the well a bit too often if it turned out to be Voldemort.  I didn't see Snape's betrayal coming though.  I'd wager though that it's a combination of different oaths that required that he do it.  I'm sure he's sworn something to Dumbledore that allowed what happened to happen.  I'm just amazed at how much of a bad ass he was at the end against Harry.  Another Death Eater probably would have gotten shitkicked by Harry.

Dumbledore though, I think is permanently dead.  Snape may be able to cast spells without speaking, but Dumbledore got hit full in the chest with a vocalized killing curse. The color of the spell was consistent and I'm not sure he could just fake an audible spell like that.

Ack.. meeting time.

I think that whole harry ginny thing is probably going to be more fully thought out in the next book. He is doing the standard wanting to protect the woman he loves thing but frankly she has ALREADY been targeted and hell even possessed by voldemort once already. I am thinking that combined with being a weasly is well more than enough to put her high on the smite list regardless of what harry wants.

Also she fought directly against the death eaters twice now I don't think harry pulling a spiderman is going to do much but again probably also one of those young dumb macho things that is probably in character for him. I am guessing she will pull the ya whatever I am going to follow my man anyway even if I have to be sneaky about it at first path with him.

After all that happened at the end of the book I am not surpised that their thoughts and feelings are a bit addled I would wait to see the next book for what they really do.

kaid

I don't dobut that Dumbledore is dead.  However, the Phoenix Harry saw at the funeral seems suspicious to me.  Also, Harry seemed much more resolved, and to buck-up much quicker than after previous deaths, despite this being the closest one to him.  I almost expect some kind of freaky memory/ talent transfer spell on Snape's part.

I also really think that Snape made some sort of Unbreakable Promise to Dumbledore, which is why he trusted himi despite all signs to the contrary.  As good-hearted as Dumbledore was, he was showing Harry that he wasn't foolish enogh to just blindly believe good in all people when sharing his own memories of Voldemort.

Ginny, I believe, is strong-willed enough to let Harry think they're split up, since that's what he needs to believe so that he won't be distracted as he does what he needs to do.  Rowling has the stupid sense of nobility of the average 16 year old pretty pegged here.  Ginny obviously doesn't think it's over, and you can bet she'll be in the next book, helping out but waiting for things to be done so she can pick-up with him again. (Something that will happen in the last few pages, along with Ron and Hermione finally admitting things to each other.)

Yup, I expect her to be working with Neville and Luna and somehow popping out of nowhere with them to save Harry's ass.

Dumbledore's funeral was a bit of a unique thing for Harry.  Actual closure with a body and a ceremony.   No death he's experienced thus far has had any such conclusion.

Speaking of Neville and Luna, I expect a hook-up there... just because it's the sappy sort of thing you expect in a series that's supposed to have a happy ending.  Two losers get comfortable with themselves and find they like each other and damn the world and what it thinks.

Completely agree with this, it was my first thought after reading the book.

I think the Draco substory is the most interesting minor plot arc in the series thus far.  The books have never had any characters really change...they are constantly being misunderstood (everyone mistakenly thinks Harry/Sirius/Dumbledore is evil, they are really good) but never change.  The insignia on the chest instantly tells you what kind of person they are, now and forever.  I'm torn between believing Draco's actions in this book (the apparent decision not to kill Dumbledore, the crying in the bathroom) might be signs of redemption, and just believing he is ratty chickenshit little soul who is still pure evil but just doesn't have the stones to do his killing in person.  After all, he DID send a bottle of poisoned wine willy-nilly into the school and apparently wasn't too concerned that a fellow student almost died from his necklace.  I hope Rowling does something with this, but complete redemption is probably too much to hope for in one book...the first or second chapter of 7 will probably have his corpse showing up on Narcissa's door to teach her a lesson.  Its probably too happy-endingy of me, but I'd also like to believe that at least Petunia out of the Dursleys might amount to something too.

My theory on Snape is that he is STILL undercover for Dumbledore, and that his Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore and Narcissa didn't necessarily conflict.  Finding 4 Horcruxes in one book is a hell of a lot of pages unless there is some Deus Ex Machina to deliver to Harry (or simply destroy) most of them.  We know Voldemort probably can't tell when a Horcrux is destroyed, so I wouldn't be surprised if Snape offs a few.  As to the final battle (Snape will be killed beforehand), Pettigrew obviously fills the Gollum role.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say Harry bites the dust at the end of the next one.  I think the Ginny breakup foreshadowed that...a steady girlfriend would make it much more likely to me that he comes out alive.  As it is, he's already cut the one possible romantic tie.  All I can think of with those two is that scene from book 1 as Ron and Harry leave on the Express for the First Time, and the nine year old Ginny runs behind them crying.  I think that, sadly, tells the tale.

EDIT: the entire Ginny romance, on first read, came out of left field.  Harry had exhibited exactly zero interest in her before this book.  But I think Rowling really hit something here: we all have those friends we assume we could always hook up with if we wanted, but if they show any initiative on their own it shocks us and reminds us they aren't reserved as our backup.  Good insight into the psyche there.    

My thoughts:

 - I like the way the Hermione/Ron bit is going.....  My biggest fear has been that Rowling will take the easy way out and hook up Harry with the main female lead.  They've both had other relationships now,  and they both have matured quite a bit.  Ron is starting to come into his own with his increased confidence,  being a Prefect,  and performance in Quiddich.

 - I liked Snape.  For the last six books,  we've had Snape be a complete pain in the ass,  with no real reason to believe he actually is on the side of Good.  He's been a two-dimensional character,  who could have been named "Harry's Faculty Foil" and no one would have known the difference.

  We not only see Snape as competant and taking sides,  we see him being subtle.  Obviously setting something up between the Dumbledore piece,  and his schooling Harry in what a real wizard looks like.

  I'd look for Snape to feed info to Harry/the Order.  I also wouldn't put it past Rowling to have Snape be the one to finish off Voldemort.  It would make a nice redemption cycle,  and come out of left field when EVERYONE assumes that Harry is going ot be the one to do it.

 - I think we have to assume RAB is Regulus Black.  I don't see any other possibilities,  and would be perfect to step into the tutoring role for Harry.  Especially if he brought a shit-load of knowledge about the Horcruxes.  It would also help to bring closure to Sirius' death.

 - The Ginny/Harry thing makes sense.  She's had a crush on him forever,  and she's been in the background for like 5 books now.  Besides,  she's competent with magic, brave,  and a good Quiddich player.

  Besides,  just from a plot standpoint she helps tie things off the best.  Something that Cho never did.  And I don't think Harry has expressed the least bit of interest in anyone else.

 - The Jesus Christ Pose (thanks Soundgarden...):  Yah, typical Christ metaphor.  Dumbledore sacrifices himself for others,  killed by maybe his foremost ally/disciple.  Helps fuel the idea that there was more going on there than just Snape offing Dumbledore.  It's the old "Judas betrayed Jesus because Jesus wanted him to" bit.

 - Political allegory:  I don't see the prisoner bit.  Stan is innocent,  and being held by the Ministry for political benefit.  Not sure how you can compare with the Guantanimo situation.  Those people aren't innocent,  it isn't generating good political benefit for Bush,  and the primary dilemma is they are being held without being charged with crimes in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

  The other obvious political message is Rowlings libertarianism.  She's being more Heinlein than Rand,  but still....  Politicians/government are generally buffons or crooked.  Her heroes are generally outsiders,  or those who refuse to dirty their hands in politics.  The big media is a laughingstock.  The main characters,  again and again,  push a message of personal responsiblity/personal morality.

  ALL of her heroes work outside the bounds of the legal system.

I'm not convinced Dumbledore won't turn up in the next book.  He knew Malfoy had been trying to kill him all year; I would bet he knew about Snape's Unbreakable Vow to take over if Draco failed as well. 

How to get around that?  Let Snape "kill" him; then Snape is in good with Voldemort and better able to play mole, and Dumbledore gets to look for Horcruxes without anyone dogging him.

The question to me is whether he returns from being dead/not-quite-dead, or they pulled a fast one and who/what got killed wasn't really Dumbledore.

Here's my own personal crackpot theory:

Dumbledore insisted he be the one to drink Voldemort's potion.  He also pointed out that it would most almost certainly not kill him, since V would want to question whoever broke in.

Thinking about Dumbledore's reaction to the potion ("I want to die!"), I wouldn't be surprised if it actually would not *let* him die (to prevent suicide from working, although I'm sure V would be happy to let him try), and hence provided some sort of protection from Snape's curse.

They returned to the school (Dumbledore saying he had returned "after a fashion" or some such) and D had Snape summoned to the top of the tower, knowing that the only way to get rid of Snape's Vow was to have Snape "kill" him.  Snape zaps him with the killing curse, vow is fulfilled, D is either dead-but-returning or not-quite-really-dead, and thanks to Voldemort's own magic and plotting, Snape is ingratiated to the Dark Lord and Dumbledore's free to work in peace (although book 7 may have Harry needing to revive the not-dead Dumbledore)

The irony all fits; remember D's lecture to Harry on how V is his own worst enemy, creating his own downfall by trying to prevent it by killing Harry.  Just interpret it as foreshadowing.

Yep, it looks pretty unavoidable from the prophecy stand point.  Also, it could a possibility that when Voldemort gave Harry the scar, both of them somehow became a Horcrux for the other.  That would support the "None can die while the other survives."

I think as others have pointed out here, the romantic tie will be renewed in the next book.  This isn't just a silly infatuation like he had with Cho, this appears to be the real deal (as real deal as it can get when you're 16, heh).   He'll need Ginny from multiple stand points just to be able to face Voldemort.  Sadly though, I don't think this will help him as he'll likely die in her arms.  Yah, it'll be cheesy and forumlaic, but it's probably necessary.


I think the romance was just wonderfully done.  Two people, best friends, common interests, one has had a crush on the other for forever and has dated people semi close to him to distract herself, the other had just gotten over a silly infatuation and learned a lot in the process.  Rowling built it up very well, showing just terrific insight to the mind of a teenager. Harry's asking about Ginny all of the time, Hermione knowing what's going on the entire time.  Ron being blissfully ignorant.  The post Quiddich match  kiss was just a priceless scene and the fact that it resulted in them dating instead of a stupid rift between him and Ron was superb.

I found it really amusing how much more mentally mature that Ginny was than Ron.  Her "snogging" tirade was priceless.  The whole Lavendar Brown relationship with Ron was just hillarius.   It'll be interesting to see where Ron and Hermione go from here. It looked like for a small while that it might have been Harry and Hermione, but thankfully they didn't go through with that.

This book has just made me very optimistic about book 7.  She's left it really wide open outside of one event that we all know must happen.  There's just so many possibilities for the characters, for the plot, and for the outcome that I can't imagine it being anything other than fantastic.  Of course, it'll likely disappoint some people given that we all probably have our view of what we'd like to happen.

http://pottercrash.ytmnd.com/

Language possibly NSFW

LE BRILLANT!

Eep.  The more I think about it, the more I think you might be right, at least as to Harry being a Horcrux for Voldemort.  That would explain the Parseltongue (Voldy's soul residing within him), and the prophecy.  That would be a helluva finish if Harry discovered he had to die in order for Voldemort to be killed.  The only thing that cautions me against this interpretation is that even if Harry had to die to get rid of the Horcrux, that means someone else still has to kill Voldemort in his physical body (which still has a piece of soul), and after all this buildup I just don't see someone else offing him while Harry's corpse cools nearby.

Of course, the treacly interpretation of the prophecy just involves interpreting "surviving" as leading a grim, obsessive existence (as both Harry and V do at this point) versus "living" (not being obsessed, smelling the roses, etc).   

I think schild would've done this if he could have. (http://gprime.net/video.php/pottercrash)

 :roffle:

That's just horrible.  That's why I'd never go to one of those things, too easy to grief. That and it's incredibly dorky.

Ack, I think this type of act will get really bad for the next one.  I think when the next book comes out I'll just read it straight without turning on the TV or my computer until I'm done.   (I probably won't leave the house either.  Well, I didn't for this one at least  :| )

Reminds me of the time I was reading a message board I used to frequent and someone posted the twist of Minority Report in the topic.  Not that I minded that much because I didn't care about the movie.  Still, I remember being somewhat incensed by the sheer assholishness of the act.

Wow, that guy exudes Internet cool, right down to the "I suck at driving my mom's minivan" comment.

Survey: Was anyone else completely and utterly not surprised by Dumbledore's death?  I mean, historically in any major series the mentor character that saves the protagonist's ass, and is as understanding and helpful as Dumbledore simply HAS to die or at least be serious removed from action to make the finally battle seem more inevitable and hopeless (despite the fact that the good guy always pulls it out in the end despite all odds).  Examples: Obi-Wan, Yoda from Star Wars and to a lesser extent Qui-Gon.  The season finale of Battlestar Gallactica.  And etc.

Also: take special note of the way the prophesy is phrase - "Neither may live while the other survives".  In conjunction with the shtick about choice, V being his own enemy, and Harry's spiel about guts and wits, and archtypal cliches about preserved innocence and etc., my guess is that Harry will NOT kill V directly, but will instead bring about his downfall indirectly.  Likely involving causing some grand scheme at world domination to backfire and Snape redeeming himself somehow by helping in a small but vital way.

I would have done that with more style and panache.

Like a megaphone. Lights. Smoke grenades. Things like that. It would've been a truly ninja-griefer moment. Then I would've stolen one of their phat loots. That's what you do when you ruin an epic encounter, rite? Any my family has never owned a minivan.

Yeah, I was looking for the megaphone as well...

Well here are my thoughts and feelings if anyone cares:

I liked the whole Ginny and Harry romance. For a long time I've wanted Harry with Ginny so was very happy when it finally happened. I also liked the writing of it, like Harry's jealousy and such.

I also am glad to see Ron and Hermione at least unofficially getting together at the end.

Now, about the next book, since we are all speculating:

I am thinking Dumbledore will come back somehow. I keep thinking back to the movie Dragonslayer where the hero had to revive his mentor towards the end. Remember how insistent Dumbledore was that Harry get Snape? He also froze Harry when I think it is very obvious Harry and Dumbledore together could take out Draco. His talk with Draco, besides trying to help him redeem himself, was also blatantly designed to stall him. My guess is he stalled so Snape could show up. His "begging" of Snape I think was very much akin to what he did with Harry. I think he was basically begging Snape to "kill" him. I will be very disappointed if Snape turns out to truly be evil at the end of book 7.

I think the next book will center around Harry and a trusted group made up of D.A. disciples. Harry's regulators if you will. My guess as to who they are:

Harry, Ron, Hermione, Ginny, Neville, Luna, Remus, Mad Eye, and maybe Fred and George.

I think in the end it will turn out that Harry is in fact one of Voldermot's Horcrux. I also fully expect the wording of the Prophecy to come into play "Neither may live while the other survives". 

I suspect Harry will die and my off the wall prediction is that it will be Neville who kills V.

And it is very much in Rowling's view of the world.  She's admitted in any number of interviews that she hasn't had much luck with men in her life and that all the evil in her books comes from When Men Don't Do What Good Men Should.

Also she's made it clear she wants the series done and behind her.  Expect totality that not even a Dallas "it was all a dream" plot device could fix.


I can't see Alan Rickman playing that kind of villain.  He's always been more the absurd mock villain, more camp than killer.

Are they really going to get to make all 7 books into films?  Those kids are aging fast, they better hurry up.

Pope shit in the woods?  They're a cash cow.   Anyhow, once they get past book 4 they can keep using whomever they have.  Hollywood has been turning 20-30yr olds into 15-16yr olds since the dawn of time.  The problems are in the current time frame when they're getting their growth spurts faster than normal.  Draco should be like 6'6" by the time the 5th book comes around.

The reason I'd be disappointed is on many levels.

1) Him being a traitor to me undermines Dumbledore and also undermines the whole "love conquers all" theme.
2) It doesn't fit other things he's done. Like saving Harry in Book 1.
3) I just kinda want Snape to be a good guy.

I am also holding out hope that Draco may make the right choice when the moment comes. Let's face it. He couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore. He's not beyond redemption yet.

what can I say? I like redemption stories.

Yea, Draco's partial change of heart was one of the best twists in HBP, and I look forward to seeing what she does with him in book 7.  Snape Junior, perhaps?

But as for the actors aging, bring it on.  I loves me the jailbait.  I just hope the direction is better in 4-7 than it was in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie.

I'd just like to say that I don't even read the books and I want Snape to be a goodguy.  Come on, the countercurse in the first one.  That was just classy.

Draco's too much of a little shit for me to like him.  If he didn't immediately start sniveling when he's in danger I'd probably be a big fan.

I always got the impression all the houses had to come together to face the greater threat.  Which means Draco joins the team, especially after the scene was set for him to resent his parents.

I don't see him joining the team. At best I see him shooting one of the Death Eaters in the back to give Harry that moment he needs in the final battle.

So you're think that whole Snape going mental when Harry kept calling him a coward was because he knows he's really being very brave carrying out the extremely dangerous triple agent plan and this idiot kid keeps threatening to muck it up?

Dunno; I still can't get a good feel for it but my gut says he'll pull a vader in the end; too many similarities not to suspect it though I have yet to see any reason Snape would have ever been interested in the good side at all.  He was a thoroughly miserable person with a miserable life and that doesnt appear to have changed since he was teen.  There had to have been a more compelling reason for him to leave the death eaters in the first place than "he felt bad b/c now V was going to murder two people he didnt like anyway"...  Course if Dumbledore is really dead, the only way to learn it would be if Snape reveals it.  Perhaps that whole "power of love" thing will be whether or not Harry can forgive/trust Snape in the end to be on side of the right considering he currently blames him for the death of both D and setting up his parents to get offed.  Maybe it's Draco that happens with.  But I do agree that Dumbledore's whole death scene does smell like a staged event; no reason to paralyze harry for that whole thing other than to keep him from interfering in the plan.

As to Harry breaking up with Ginny for her own good, considering Ron and Herm. are planning on tagging along is doesnt seem to hold much water.  I suspect she'll be around lots.

Makes me wonder if the author herself knows how the series will end yet.  I like the fact that I can't get a bead on Snape and introducing some questions about Draco was nice too.  Makes me want to read the last one, unlike some other long series that just meander aimlessly...

Xilren

*cough*Robert Jordan*cough*

Rowling strikes me as one of those authors with an outline.

Basically,  have a few major events that must happen at some point in the book,  and the rest of it is some kind of episodic story.  Things mesh together pretty well,  and there aren't a whole lot of inconsistencies.

I think Half-blood Prince is going to get knocked out of the Children's section though,  just for the Dumbledore stuff.

It's an interesting attempt to update and advance the target age group as the books move on.

It's a plan.  It's all planned.

I'm even starting to suspect that Draco himself is in on it.  I think Harry has more help than he realises;  Especially considering the last chapter.

(And, I now have to reread to find out about Regulus again.  Bollocks.  I don't even like these books...)


This one was miles better than the last, which was, to be fair, stinkyplop.

I don't think Draco is in on it. I'm also not totally convinced Dumbledore knew that Draco was the one trying to kill him. I think Draco just came face to face with a man and discovered that killing was alot harder than he thought it would be. Especially as Dumbledore is nothing but nice to everyone, including him.

I am totally convinced that Dumbledore knew.

What I'm not convinced about is Draco shedding any tears whatsoever over killing Harry or Dumbledore.  I think he was crying for other reasons.  After all, he was sharing with Myrtle.  I think the poor sod has had some change of heart.  Also, we never did get confirmation of a dark mark on him, did we ?

Oh yeah, one think I forgot to mention.  You remember that when Dumbledore was trying to reason with Draco he flat out told him he could make it appear that he, Draco, and his mother had both been killed in a way that would convince V they were truly dead and thus they could be protected...

Personally leaning towards Dumbledore and Snape having discovered how to thwart the killing curse and just made it look like a death.  Would tie in nicely to why everyone seems to want the Defense Against the Dark Arts job yet no one seems to know exactly why it.

Xilren

Yes I found dumbledores speach to malfoy where he told him he could make voldemort believe him and his mother were well and truly dead interesting. If he can do this for somebody else why not himself. Also I found it interesting that a dumbledores PHEONIX burnt himself up on dumbledores body and made a tomb for him.

I do not believe great and powerful wizards are dead until you kill them 6 or 7 times cut the head off burn the ashes and scatter them to the four corners of the world.

kaid

I totally agree. And to answer something you said in an earlier post about Snape being mad because he's risking himself and Harry keeps mucking it up etc..

I think one huge difference between Harry and Dumbledore is how they look at people. Dumbledore as was brought up repeatedly tends to see the best in people and gives them chances. Harry tends to instantly categorize people as good or evil and he never changes. Snape has been evil to him for years and he never trusted him.

Personally, ever since we saw Harry's father picking on Snape and being a bully along with Remus and Sirius I've felt alot more sympathy for him and hoped he gets his heroic moment. I was also proud that Harry was ashamed of his father's bullying.

Guess this is my long winded way of saying that I hope Snape turns out to be part of some plan of Dumbledore's. I think ole Rowling is showing us too many reasons he is evil, the unbreakable oath to Draco's mother, killing Dumbledore, etc. My gut says that something is up.

Someone has been reading Cook.....

I don't buy it - its too simple and too cheap:

Evil: Nobody survives my Ultimate Unsurvivable Attack!
Good: I always triumph in the end
Evil: Die like the wussy fighter you are *uses ultimate attack*
Good: ARG! I am greatly weakened, but neverthe less survived the Ultimate Unsurvivable Attack.
Evil: Inconcievable!
Good: Now to use my TradeMarked Attack and save the world in one hit, desipte being severly more beat up than Evil!

If there is one thing I have learned about Rowling its that she generally doesn't think in strait lines like most of the rest of us - the solution to the little mysteries in each book are hidden through-out the novel, but generally not apparent until they are revealed, and its never what you expect.  Posessed Quirrell in Book 1, The diary and basilisk in Book 2, the werewolf thing and time-machine dohickey in Book 3, etc., though to be honest HBP was a little lacking in this department.  However she draws this together in Book 7 it will likely look obvious in hindsight, but history says it will likely not be as obvious and cliche as bringing back the Mentor character to cheapen the Hero's Sacrifice.

Well, one person already survived that ultimately EVIIIIILLL Unsurvivable attack, so...

Who? I don't remember anyone surviving Avada Kedavra except for Harry, and that was extenuating circumstances.

Way to lawyer it.

Damn, I hate lawyers.

 :-D

That's classy.

Seriously.

I'm still only halfway through the book but Dumbledore is working Harry pretty hard on that issue.  The fact that Harry has to come to terms with Dad's/peergroup oppressive bullying has to be tied into that somehow.  The "sins of the father" thing, which Rowling is all over.

Old Dumby's picture is on the wall.  I think that means he's all done.

Snape also was overheard saying he didn't want to kill Dumby, and Dumpy said he had to do it.

This is the second meandering monstrosity she's written in a row that's 90% filler crap with some fireworks at the end.  Mediocre fireworks.

I suppose if you like reading about her little world and the whatever that goes on there, then it's great for you, but me personally, I wanna see some plot get developed dammit!

Bah!  Robert Jordan is probably green with envy.

I thought stuff that happened in the world WAS plot.  Or is that the other way around?

Congrats, you're the first negative review I've read about this book.

As has already been opined, I have a very hard time seeing Snape turn out to be ultimately evil (its Darth Vader all over again, except with a throne room scene that lasts seven books...).  An Unbreakable Vow on Snape is not something I would have thought was Dumbledore's style to use, until reading this book.  The fact he aquired one of the memories he showed Harry by slipping the 'donator' a Veritus potion suggests to me that Dumbledore doesn't entirely lean on his optimistic belief in humanity to win. 

I'd be very surprised to find out in book seven that neither of the following explanations of Snape's killing of Dumbledore is true: a) Dumbledore had an out or knew death was the best choice and opened his mind to Snape's mental probing so that Snape would know to kill him (thus the 'please' just before the killing), or b) Dumbledore and Snape planned this, including Snape's Unbreakable Vow, perhaps due to a prophecy, perhaps due to cagey thinking, and Harry was simply uninformed of this.

The irony of explanation 'b' is that Harry has spent six books not telling Dumbledore everything and not following the rules, yet Harry will be very angry when it turns out Dumbledore didn't tell Harry some important stuff... like Unbreakable Vows here and there or nifty death curse avoidance tricks.

Oh, and I'll be mad if Snape dies but Harry lives.  This series is actually about Snape's victory over himself, just told through Harry's perspective.

Dumbledore doesn't stick stock in prophecy.  That's what he spent the better part of the book and the end of the last one trying to get through to Harry. You make your own destiny, there IS free-will.  This will become very important in book 7, I would think, as Harry stumbles and trys to work towards what prophecy tells him he must do before finally learning what has been said plainly.




Hey cool, then we can have some Prequel books! Maybe show how Harry and Snape are from the same hometown.. and something about Snape falling in love and joining the death eaters to save the girl.. yeah that'd rock!  :-D

(http://www.unc.edu/~dewald/deadobiwan.jpg)

The plot that happens in the world is stuff???  Um, yeah, I guess so...  Don't get me wrong, I love the series, I'll buy book 7 on Launch Day and read it ASAP.

My point was that not very much of this book dealt with the central plot of the books, that of the struggle between voldy and potty.  Right from the beginning, Rowling rambled from tangent to meaningless tangent, either introducing new meaningless things(the Muggle Minister, Cormac Mclaggen, Slughorn, Bill and Fleur, etc) or rehashing old meaningless things like train rides, burrows, Dursleys, Quidditch, etc, things that are necessary for the potter eperience, but seemed awfully dragged out and not interesting the 6th time thru.

Here is a summary of the plot things I got from the books:

Snape killed Dumby because Dumby wanted him to?  To put the fire under Harry's ass?  (gah, like that hasn't been done a million other places).
Draco is evil?  or is he a scared little boy with a part to play for good?  (Moaning Myrtle?  wtf??)
Voldy is a power mad maniac with power mad maniac memories.  Duh.
Horcruxes.  Cool.  Do this on page 100, not 500!!!!
Regulus Black.  Why not him instead of Slugboy?  Would have been another cool Lupin like thing.  That was great in book 3.

I can't believe people in this forum are actually thinking this book accomplished much.  Seems to me she set herself up for a massive mess in book 7.  Will it be 1500 pages?  Or perhaps it will just suck.  What does Rowling do?  Does she read the forums and such and get mad because people are figuring stuff out?  Is that why she hardly went anywhere in the last 2 books?

Bah.  I'm going to go read book 3 again.  That's Harry Potter the way it should be.

grebo:

You are missing the point.

The point of the series isn't Vold vs Harry.  The point of the series is Harry & Friends,  growing and maturing,  with minor allegory about parental roles/duties and social mores, as well as choice and free will (Snape, Malfoy, Dumbledore, Harry and prophecy).

That's why the first couple books were simplistic, slightly fable-like,  moving to angst/rebellion, moving to mature themes and characters acceptance of actions and roles.

That's why we keep harping on the possible redemption stories,  like Snape or Malfoy, and on the relationships and friendships.

Jordan sucks because he stopped advancing both his plots and his characters 4 books ago.  We're left with a situation where the reader is following relationships that are bizarre and uninteresting with characters that don't grow or change.  And the plot has completely stalled out.

I simply don't think there is enough time to "redeem" Malfoy.  Snape, yes...this has been building.  But we didn't have a hint of the Malfoy business until this book.  I still say his corpse will be catapulted over the Hogwarts walls in chapter 2 or something as a lesson to Narcissa.

FINAL BOOK - SPECULATION ALERT

Ok I just got past where Harry rips Draco a new one in Marcy's bathroom.  And this thought occured to me thinking back to the converation between Harry and Dumbledore after Harry successfully shares Slugworth's memory and the two discuss Voldemort's seven-shriven soul.

Dumbledore is not truly dead.  Snape knows this.  Now whether Rowling has them plan them together or Snape takes an opportunistic chance and "kills" Dumbledore knowing he'll live I can't say.  But what Snape will know is that Dumbledore decided to take a page from Voldemort's strategy and split his soul, counting on Harry to make the difference.  Where did Dumbledore decide to esconce the fragment?

The ruby-encrusted sword of Gryffindor that hangs in a display in his office that Dumbledore makes a point of mentioning to Harry.

BTW I found Dumbledore's explanation/denunciation of prophecy rather circular.  No wonder Harry's not immediately convinced.  Just because someone works to self-fulfill prophecy doesn't mean there is no such thing in the book's universe.

EDIT: nevermind my brain must have escaped when I had this harebrained thought.  No way Dumbledore would kill to split his soul.  MINOR FLAW!!!

Sure there is: Rowling even set it up in this book, by having him come to Myrtle about his loneliness and fear, and having him not kill Dumbledore. The plot almost demands that he sacrifice himself to save someone in the next (last) book.

That's what I said too.  Though I don't think he's as bad as everyone makes out in this book.  I think he may even be part of THE PLAN.

All of this won't answer the question however, why Snape took the unbreakable vow in the first place. I don't think that he has done it purely for securing his cover as a death eater.

Malfoy has always been one of Snape's favourites since book one, but I wouldn't risk so much for the kid of a fellow death eater, whose father I don't even like very much.

I think Snape is probably more involved with the Malfoy family than he's let on until now. I can't get the suspicion out of my head that Snape might be Malfoy's father or an old lover of his mothers' or something like that. After rereading the scene were he takes the vow, I cannot help but think that he took the vow out of personal reasons and not to secure his cover.

What is strange though is the Malfoys' hatred for "mudbloods" given that we now know both Tom Riddle/Voldemort and Snape/The Half-Blood Prince are. I wonder if they know, and that there might be a showdown between the Malfoys and the other Death Eaters later on?

Mrs. Rowling, please to be writing book seven real fast, for the children and for great hustice.

Re: Voldemort being a mudblood, remember that Hitler and many of his top guys weren't blonde-haired-blue-eyed Aryans.

AUGH! You've killed the thread - Nazi's mentioned by page two!

(http://www.cinemacom.com/chaplin/great-dictator-3.jpg)

Don't be so ignorant.

Welcome to Humor.  You may not recognize with that 2x4 up your ass blocking your view.

It's not stick up the ass syndrome, it's knowing this community.  Godwin is full of shit.

Um, anyway, you two being WOMEN aside :

Look at Draco (the films give you the best view).  Look at Lucius.  Now look at Snape.

If she even tries to pretend that there's not a proper father son thing there and that Snape is the father, I'll throw my suspension of disbelief up.

Clones.

By immaculate conception, this child was made!

(http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/star.wars.anniversary/where.are.they/yoda.lg.jpg)

This is refuted by the First Law of the Universe: Hot women can do better than fugly. 

Voldemort and Snape aren't mudbloods, they're half-bloods.  A 'mudblood' is a wizard/witch born of parents who are both muggles.

I finally finished the book and read the above.  I agree with most.

One thing I didn't see anyone mention as a possibility (maybe it is there but I missed it,) is Snape's relationship with Harry's mother.  My thought is that he secretly loved her and was devastated when the information he passed to V was used to ultimately kill her.  He fled to Dumby to try and repair what he had done somehow or get revenge on V.  I'm not sure if Dumby would partake in an unbreakable oath or not, but I think this is a big part of why he is so sure of Snape's loyalty.

I do believe Snape did something with his curse or helped Dumby prior to cursing him to make it seem like Dumby is dead or at most dead, but able to be brought back.  Think about how Snape was able to actually create new spells, potions, etc.  He was doing it as a child in school.  Why wouldn't he have continued doing as an adult?  He's had many years to come up with tons of new things.  No other wizard is mentioned doing this kind of thing, not even V.  They just mention him finding new dark and powerful spells and artifacts and using them to his advantage.  He's just had the instinct and power to be able to pull off magic developed prior to him.  I only remember him finding out about the killing curse, not that he created it.  I'm making a wild grab that Snape might have actually created that one too.  If he did, who better to know how to manipulate it?

I could be wrong, but I came away from this book feeling like Snape is much smarter and powerful than V.  It is just that Snape hasn't been near as ruthless or interested in power as V, so he's stayed pretty much unnoticed throughout.  My other belief of his love for Lilly shows that he is capable of love, which V is not.

Just some ramblings to add to the wild storm of theories here.

A lightbulb just went off.

It's been mentioned many times that V is one of the most powerful wizards known for a long time, and I was going to rebut Dren with this and then point-out that Snape's talent is potions.   A-duh.. it hit me like a ton of bricks, Snape would have been the one to create the potion that Dumbledore drank.

   I wish I could remember any mention of V and how he did in potions when he was in school, but something tells me he wouldn't have cared much for it.  There's always comparisons being made between V and Harry, and Harry doesn't much care for potions, other than needing to know them.   Makes sense to me that V would have been the same way, so he would have turned to his master of potions, Snape, when he needed one for his Horcrux.  This fits-in with the whole 'Snape killed him, but did XYZ as well' theory pretty nicely as well.  It would also be another reason Dumbledore required it be Snape to help him, instead of being taken to the hospital.

Hm.  What happens if you try to take an Unbreakable Oath that conflicts with an Unbreakable Oath you took earlier, I wonder?  Does the second one silently fizzle out?  That'd certainly be convenient.

Just another variation on sneaking wishes out of djinni.  Early hero stories are full of variations on that theme.

Our peer group has decided on the "Snape is Malfoy's father while never getting over his unrequited love for Lily" bandwagon.  It explains why Snape would bother getting involved in any of these events and could walk the fine line.  Rowling must have a thing for nerdy geek goths.

Oh, and Dumbledore comes back.  That is all.

Very possible, but I'd like to point out that V was Head Boy, and I think there was some reference to his grades in some book as being stellar in a Hermione sort of way.  I doubt he was an incompetent at Potions, but you are still probably right- when you have the Man in that specialty, why not use him?

On the other hand, if Snape knew about the Horcruxes and was truly on the side of good, why didn't he ever tell Dumbledore?  The Horcrux thing was unknown even to him until book 6.

EDIT: Oh, and my gut is telling me the "Dumbledore comes back" stuff is just wishful thinking.  I know we all like Dumbledore, but do we really want a crappy War of the Worlds Robby is omgstillalive type of ending?  Give his sacrifice meaning and keep him dead.

It worked all right in Lord of the Rings.

Yeah, but that's different.  They didn't take the time to set up a big formal honking funeral and inform every other person on the planet like they did with Dumbledore, and Gandalf had the classic superhero/supervillain "death" anyways (they never found the body!).  It gets exponentially lamer when someone is clearly dead, buried, and they come back for no apparent reason. 

The only thing that makes me think I'm wrong is that Dumbledore didn't really "sacrifice" himself for  Harry, he was safe and invisible.  He died a lame death while tied up in his tower.  If this was a real death, it may have been more likely to happen during the Dumby/V duel in book 5. 

I'm still 85/15 for real death here though. 

Dumbledore is coming back as a blue glowie! Just accept that.

Okay.

Finsished the book yesterday.  Couple of thoughts beyond what has been posted.  I give Dumbeldore a 50/50 chance of coming back; although that raises if Snape really is helping.

I think the potion Dumbeldore drank was actually one of the Horcruxes and thus all the spew Dumbeldore was mouthing was taking on part of Vold's soul.  I also think he purposely had Snape kill him, thus lending the credibility that Snape will pull a Vader.

I liked the book.  Not as well as I liked book four, but so far it is my second favorite.  I agree that Ginny has not given up on the relationship and Potter will learn with an unwavering hand that she controls when the relationship stops or keeps going.

I am unsure if Harry's scar is a Horcurx or not, in someways it would make sense, but honestly I don't think JK will kill Potter.

Not that I believe in that particular part of the prediction, but it wouldn't be story breaking if there were certain things Snape could or couldn't say to either side.  They have used the spell that restrains people from saying specific things about places and people before and it could be used from both sides.

Even though Snape might be working for Dumbledor, you can't just assume Snape could leave a meeting with V and tell him everything in exacting detail.  In fact, he might not have been able to tell D exactly what V was planning with Malfoy, but might have given him hints and indirectly told him something was up.

I do believe Snape told D that he had to help Malfoy due to the unbreakable vow and that he wouldn't like the outcome of that.  Later the discussion between the two is overheard and I believe it was D telling Snape that he must do whatever he must to keep his cover and carry on, whatever the cost.  Whether D knew it was his own death or not is hard to tell yet.

Things are left pretty far open at this point.  JK could go a lot of different directions though.

One thing I thought of when Dumbledor's picture showed up at Hogwart's.  Why not go talk to him in the painting?  The other paintings seemed to know everything about their own past and could reveal lots of interesting tidbits in the past books....why not now?  In fact, Negelus (sp) Black talked about how children behaved when he was headmaster in this very book.

Of course he was sleeping in the picture.  Does that mean he's not really dead but somewhere in between life and death a la V in the first two books?  Hrm...

That's my take on it.  I can hardly believe Dumbledore would nap through Harry bringing McGonagall up to speed on things he learned from D a few hours before.  Not to mention the entire embassy zapping in any minute.

He's coming back.

I would like to think that Dumbledore is coming back, but who knows? I am still waiting for Moiraine to come back, and she disappeared in what, the 3rd book?

Apprently all of books 1-7 of mine disappeared.  I have my hardcover 8 and 9.   I'm trying to decide if this is a blessing or not considering I had an urge to reread them last week. 

I'm still about 50/50 on Dumbledore returning just based on the potion he had to swallow looking for that horcrux.  Snape is just that good at potions that this could be part of some gigantic scheme to lure Voldemort into complacency.  After all, just about the very first potion Snape ever mentioned was something that could induce a deep near death-like sleep.

Who knows, but apparently she does.  She had already written the last chapter of book 7 when they filmed a Biography special on her a couple weeks ago.

Don't be silly.  Of course he's coming back!

Boba Fett fanboi alert meter condition orange

(http://www.achewood.com/comic.php?date=08082005)

Hehehe, voodoolily is my favorite.

I can finally read this thread having slugged through the rather boring brick, were all discussing and having managed not to have the intarweb spoil the big surprise, that any intelligent person saw miles away.
After a 50 pages I put down the book and wrote:
"Dumbledore dies. Harry kisses Ginny."
And gave it to my wife, who finished the book two days after release.


I don't see this one working as a movie at all. The 4th will be bad, but doable, but this? Meandering with a final battle and a funeral to end it all on a happy note? Lucas Kasdan  pulled it off with Empire, but that started with a kickass battle and had action in between - the one important Quiddich match in the book takes place offscreen for gods sakes. O.k. book - sucky movie.

Dumbledore will be back in some form, Draco will redeem himself somewhat and Snape will turn out to be a good guy (of sorts). The final book will be 1000+ pages, Stephen King won't have lived in vain (there's another big ass series I need to finish), but it will be better than the two last ones because Potter will destroy 4 horticulturals (or whatever they're called) and confront Snape along the way.

The mysterious R.A.B. (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/regulus.html)

[EDIT] Fixed link

The link has an extra "L" in .html for those who wonder why it's not working.

I wonder who the 'well-placed source' that confirmed this 2 days ago was.

I've been wondering if Snape is one of Voldemorte's horcruxes, and not Harry.  He seems pretty adamant about not being a coward, and I haven't been taking that as simple lashing back at taunts of cowardice.

(http://www.achewood.com/comic.php?date=09012005)

I want to teach a course at "Talk Like A Dick" school.