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There were many children from many different countries at Legoland this past weekend. No matter what language they spoke they all understood one simple fact: whoever builds the biggest gun out of Legos wins. That's right. With all the wonderful things you can build with Legos, they only thing children want to build is guns.

Also, I counted at least 135151454164 children between the ages of 6 and 10 giving "the shocker" to the camera on rides.

That's purely b/c building a gun out of lego's is infinitely easier than a really cool spaceship, transforming robot, or dragon, and a lego sword is a flismy creation that breaks in 1 hit.  In terms of childhood competition, this is known as survival of the fittest.

Hell, most 4 year old knew this lesson with duplo blocks; where have you been?

Xilren

I know where I've been and where I will be. Not having children... ever.

My fiancee and I both agree on this. Waste of time, money and effort.

IMO. A lot of people will disagree and some will say that if I had a child I would understand. Well, the closest I came to that was dating a woman through the end of her pregnancy and beginnings of her newborn's life and I can honestly say, it didn't make me feel that emotion that is always described to me by parents. *shrug* Perhaps it's not so much a feeling as justification and denial when the parents realize how much of their lives they are about to throw away because of the little Lego gun building hairless ape spawn. ;)

I don't have any kids, but I strongly suspect that dating a parent is very different from being a parent.  It seems like you'd get most of the the hassle without any of the rewards.

Some people are not parent material, hell probably more than a fair share, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they don't become parents.  I never thought I would like being a parent, but I would not trade anything for my son.

As long as weapons and conflict are glorified in kids' programming, you can expect this behavior.  I'm not sure I'd say it's unhealthy.  It looks disturbing to see kids pretending to kill one another, but their minds just aren't developed enough to completely understand what they're doing.  To them, it's innocent fun and competition.  Plus it'll help keep the xXx franchise in business when they grow up.  I don't want to imagine what kind of world we'd be living in had xXx never seen the light of day.

I mean... the Vin Diesel site might not even have started.  <shudder>

Fine, then a semi-serious reply too. :)

Lego's are great fun and between my two boys plus the lego's my mother saved from when I was a child (bless her little packrat heart) I have approx 1 google's worth of lego block at home.  And they get used often.  When we build it's always some fantastical spaceship, dragster, robot, castle stuff because the rule of lego's is, you follow the included instructs to build the playset on the box one time, then it's a brick flying free for all of creation.  We even have the lego board game.

However, I have also had my kids a varous amusment park that have lego creation stations, and without fail, the kids there ARE doing what shockeye described.  I think it mainly has to do with time and oppotunity.  Most of these public lego stations just dont have enough worthwhile pieces to build neat stuff with (lucky if you can find enough wheels to make 1 car, let alone race more than one), plus building takes time. 

Building a lego gun can be done from almost any combination of pieces, and is very quick so it lets the kids get to playing with their friends they made 20 seconds ago.

It's sort of the equivalent of an "instant-action" button for legos.  I doubt it has much carry over b/c lets' face it, at home, probaly 90% of those kids have much cooler toy guns than ones you can make out of lego's anyway.  So, I wouldn't weep for humanity over this; I more impressed enough parents would take their kids to a legoland rather than dropping them off at the closest chuck-e-cheese asylum.

Xilren

You missed your own point.  If you have a child you'd understand.  Watching someone else have a child doesn't give near... well, any of the same effect. 


As opposed to throwing away their lives on message board posting or playing video games?  If you are an inheritly selfish person - and if you judge life's value in terms of money you might be - then no, children aren't worthwhile.  Between daycare, food, toys, utilities, etc you will spend as much as a house on each one.  Literally. 

If you're someone who cares about forming relationships with people for their sake, then nothing beats being a parent.  Nothing else will make your day as much as walking into a room and seeing your son or daughter smile when you enter.  Nothing else will be as deep a personal challenge as trying to set an example for them to follow. 

As far as making guns out of Legos - Legos are predominately played with by boys who love all things war.  If it's not guns, it's spaceships with lasercannons; if not that, it's tanks.  if not that, they're cars that habitually crash into one another.  Or if they're sissy, it's a Harry Potter wand to zap imaginary friends.  My step-father has told me about making models as a kid only to torch them with a magnifying glass or firecrackers.  If you get right down to it, team sports are ritualized warfare.  What's new here?

I'll agree with Roac on the 'if it ain't yours, you don't understand,' thing.  You had not connection to the kid, only to it's mother, Soyukan.

Kids are an effort, but one that's damn well worth it, imo.  If you can't see it and don't want it, I'm all for the government-funded (voluntary) sterilization of those who say they don't and won't ever want it.  I'll keep my opinion of them to myself, but if you really don't want parenthood, back it up with more than words.  The world has enough unwanted kids, so do your part to make sure you don't contribute.

To the dedicated non-parents, good on ya, it's your choice. Wether you think it's a 'waste' or you 'just hate kids,' I don't care.  Just stay the hell out of the 'family' restaurants, or quit yer bitchin' when you go there.  Nothing irks me more than hearing the stories from my sister the waitress about the prissy DINKs start looking down their noses at the parents dealing with kids at someplace whose ambiance is the level of Friday's or The Cooker.  Still worse are the ones brave enough to ask her to say something, but lacking the balls to do it themselves.  "Oh shit, kids. Wah."

While I'm ranting, fuck y'all who think you shouldn't have to pay school taxes because you don't have kids.  It's called socieital responsibility.  You'll bitch soon enough about the idocy of America, but you'll be damed if you have to tote any part of that burden.  Does that mean if I'm not a jackass and don't burn down my house, get the cops called on me, or get into an accident I don't have to pay for the Cops, Fire Department, or Hospitals? No, because I'm not a flaming douchebag.

I'm sure somewhere Chuck Heston is rubbing his hands with glee.

Why do children feel the need to connect with each other by pointing guns at them?

Heh, wait until she is around 33. She will sing a different tune. I guarantee it.

BTW, I was never in to the "having a kid thing" before I had mine, but it is pretty damn cool.

I respect folks' rights to have kids.  Respect my right to not have them nor to put up with them beyond basic understanding that kids are kids and good parents put much of their resources towards their wellbeing.  Hence the whole good parents thing.  Good parents might take their kids to a Pixar flick and hush them if they get too noisy.  Bad ones take them to a horror film and no nothing when they run up and down the aisle screaming bloody murder.

A kid throwing a ball through a department store that hits me in the head?  No big.  Ill probably even hand it back to the little tyke.  A kid throwing a giant wailing fit and the parent doing little more than blind screaming or ignoring their child?  AW HELL NAW!

Do you really need an answer to this?

In short: Children are not idealists. They're just....Human.

What was the first really active, non-sport game you played as a kid?  Mine was cowboys and indians, except on my side we pointed bows...  This was in the early seventies, I also remember the best birthday gift I got was a red rider bb gun and the use of which no eyes were shot out.  We are animals, rational thinking animals, but we are just a few short steps from the beast.

I think you're reading far too deeply into this. Bear in mind, dude, you more than likely played guns, too. You turned out fine.

Fact is, toy guns are just long range versions of tag for kids. As they grow up, it's up to the parents to teach them what guns really do, and why it's not ok to repeat what they see in movies and games.

Exactly.  My little brother and I used to run around department stores doing exactly this when we got dragged along.  We both loved it then, we both love violent games now, and both of us are (or in my case was now that I graduated) successful students with no behavoral problems beyond staying up past curfew.

Heh. I knew I'd stir up trouble with my sentiments.

Yes, you are right, Roac, posting on message boards (and playing games, which I haven't done for almost a year now and probably will never have time to do so again) is a waste of time. But I chose to reply to something for which I had an opinion, as you did. It's called choice. Not to mention that it didn't waste 18 years of my life. ;)

Yes, Roac, I am an inherently selfish person when it comes to whether I wish to share my time and life raising a child. As to the woman whom I dated whose child was not mine, I may not have shared the joy, but I was certainly getting up at all hours to help feed/change the diaper/entertain the child. I do realize now that the child must be your own to understand the "joy". Honestly the whole process just doesn't strike me as it does others. I do not find child development to be all that profound. And I don't measure life by a monetary value. When I walk into the room and see my fiancee smile at me, nothing feels better. I feel a love for her that is beyond description. I don't need a child to feel that. I am fulfilled. Ah, well. We're all entitled to feel how we wish about life.


Merusk, I may not understand because it wasn't my child, but I was helping out so I at least understand the work part of the early months of a baby's life. As to sterilization, the mother of six on welfare who cannot support even herself is more of a prime candidate for sterilization than someone like myself who is a responsible contributor to society. I'm all for paying school taxes in an effort to help educate children to not end up in the same situation as a parent who is living off the dole and running up medical bills for which they'll never be able to pay. But then again, I believe in responsibility and, the big one that people love to dodge in this country, accountability. There are a lot of members of our society who want to act irresponsibly and then not be held accountable, but who will shout out that it is our societal responsibility to support them. And don't suggest that people can't overcome adversity. We all make decisions and there are a lot of people who can overcome, but they need to put forth the effort to do so. I'm lucky to have had a good life thus far and am certainly blessed to have had the opportunities in my life and I only wish that others could have the same, but I also realize that my fiancee had things much, much harder and has overcome huge obstacles to surpass me and my accomplishments. I think that sometimes a life more challenged can make one more determined. But I digress... I don't bitch about children in "family" restaurants. I simply don't eat at them. I do tire of having to deal with children and their antics in situations where a baby-sitter would have been a more proper choice. Or discipline. The problem is that the parents never want to take the child out of a public area when they begin to misbehave because then the parents might have their experience disrupted.
How to clarify...

I'm at a performance at the park and a couple settles in next to us with their child.
After a short while, the child gets restless, starts to ask his parents when they can leave.
Parents respond, "In a little while."
Child accepts this and waits for another few minutes before asking again, this time adding that he is bored.
Parents offer yet another delay tactic.
Child begins to sing and attempts to entertain himself, beginning to disrupt those around him.
Parents blatantly ignore him.
This goes on for some time with the child getting more out of hand.
Etc. etc. etc.

I don't have to go on because I think you realize that at this point, responsible parents would leave and take their disruptive child with them. But no, instead, I had to move in order to continue hearing the performance without interruption. I'm not suggesting that adults don't interrupt either, but you see my point. A lot of parents that I encounter with children do not want to interrupt their own fun because their child is causing a stir. They refuse to be accountable for having a child and having to deal with the inevitable interruptions that come with it. I am not sympathetic to this behavior because I realize what having a child entails and I choose not to do so. It's called making a responsible and informed (if somewhat selfish, as well - but hey, I'm the one who won't have anyone to take care of me when I'm older ;) decision.


Abagadro, we're both in our late 20's now so 33 isn't all that far off, but with her, I can say with certainty that the tune will not change. She and I are very much in tune on the issue of children. If you do turn out to be right, I'll buy you a bottle of champagne (or another suitable substitute should bubbly not be your thing).

It seems to me that a lot of people here either have children or are planning on having them so I don't expect that many people will agree with me or even see my viewpoint on children very easily. I think children can be a wonderful thing for others and I love to see the joy that people experience with them. I apologize if my initial post came off as crass or uninformed, but the issue of having children is something that I have thought long and hard about for years.

[edit] Corrected the spelling of "new" to "knew"[/edit]

To the contrary, I think most people understand your view very well, at least and especially men.  No one I know anyway was ever interested in child development or being a parent - until they became one.  I'll second Ab's sentiment.  Being a parent is just one of those things I don't think you can get until you are one, and is sort of like trying to explain sex to a thirty year old virgin.  I don't think the annoying part is that you don't want children - if that's what you want, that's what you want, so have at it.  It's more like thing such as; The problem is that the parents never want to take the child out of a public area when they begin to misbehave...  Never?  Then followed with how the parents waste their time being such, and apparently yours as well.

Well, i can't quite interpret Roac's last sentance there, but I have to say my sentiments tend to echo Soukyan's.

I have a ton of respect for responsible parents. Unfortunately, many parents I know don't fall under that responsible category, but i don't really want to get in to that. Lets just say I'm not a supporter of the "Its my right to have children" stance.

I'm 34 and not currently involved with anyone. I really have no interest in having children at this point in my life, and considering my age, will likely never have them. My sister is younger than me, and I do hope she has kids some day. Why? Purely selfish reasons. I can honestly say that it would be great to have a nephew or niece to bond with, yet not have the majorly disrupting responsibility for.

Does this make me a bad person? I don't think so. I would personally never want to have a child unless I was in a position financially and emotionally to give that child a great life. I'm not there by my standards. It bothers me that many people have much lower standards for this.

I respect people who consciously make the decision not to have children just because they can. The last thing we need as a society are more people with children who really don't care if they have them or not. I intend on having kids, but I'm responsible enough now to know that right now is not the time to have them. I'm not ready, and doing so before I'm ready will cause myself and the child harm.

As for disruptive children, I've had my fill of them. When I worked in retail, I saw so many spoiled ass kids who got no discipline from their parents. Children writhing around on the floor with their mother standing over them, all because they didn't get the toy or book they wanted. That's irresponsible parenting. Tantrums will happen with children, but they quickly need to learn that not only will the tantrum not get them what they want, it will get them negative attention from the parent. The ones who just stand there and ignore it in the middle of the store? Fuck them. Pick your kid up, take him out of the store and either spank him or toss him in the car and let him screech his little head off away from the attention of others. Same goes for restaurants.

Movie theaters? There are parents in movie theaters I want to bludgeon to death with my rigid cock. I once saw a mother with 4 kids, not a goddamn one of those kids over the age of 10, in a movie. The movie? SEVEN. Yeah, THAT movie, with the gore and violence and twisted, fucked up shit. Sorry, if you can't get a babysitter, you don't need to see that movie. Not only were they disrupted, afterwards all of the kids walked out of the theater SCREECHING IN TERROR. I cannot imagine the thought process that arrived at Seven being a proper movie for kids that age to see. As a parent, if you bring your child to a movie, or performance, or just in public, you better be responsible for making sure he's not a disruption to everyone around him. No, the kid's not an adult and he will get bored with things easily; if that's the case, be responsible for making sure his boredom doesn't cause other people problems.

Kids aren't robots, and you shouldn't expect them to be, but in polite society, they'd better be taught to act politely, instead of like the douchebags some people insist on being.

Heh.  Stir up trouble? Yes and no; while I doubt you'll find another single subject that hits people hot buttom more quickly talking about parents and their children, no one is frothing at the mouth about it yet :)


The only point I want to add was right here, and a lot of this may sound like idealism (lord knows there are tons of bad parents and we get more daily).  I apoogize in advance for the length but it's a hard subject to put into words.  Warning warning, long rambling post ahead...

Having a child is profoundly different from loving your significant other in this way.  Good parenting is totally, and i mean totally, focused on another person, the child.  Marriage is not.  As much as I love my wife and enjoy being with her, I also know she's an adult who can take care of herself and she has never been (and barring some disaster) never will be, in the same position relative to me that our children are.

Raising a child is a far far different experience than loving another adult.  For the first years of a child life, they are basically helpless and totally dependent on you for everything.  So your actions, attitudes and worldview changes significantly.  You not longer approach decisions on what to do from a sense of enlightened self interest; you put anothers needs as the primary motivating factorfor everything you do.  That's why you get up 4 times a night for feedings and changing, that's why you pace the floor the first time your child is sick, that's why the first few night you have your first baby home from the hospital you wake up anytime the child even moves, coughs, makes a sound in their bassinet just to make sure they are ok.  You basically forget about yourself.  Why? Love of course.

That's the payoff and the joy; kids love YOU unconditionally.  The first ~4 years of childs life are a huge change in your lifestyle, but seeing you childs face light up when the simply hear your voice is amazing; your financee's smile is but a pale shadow of this though I know you wont believe me.  Watching a child learn and grow and experience all of life for the first time is amazing.  You discover alot about yourself too.  Children are in some ways an imperfect mirror of you and your wife; you get back from them what you put into them, but they also aren't little adults.

I know you know part of this b/c you helped do it for someone else child, but I think you missed out of the why of it. If you had stayed with that woman and her child, and you had wanted to, you could have had the childs love unconditionally, even if you didn;'t love the child.  I'm not saying you should have, but the child would have given it to you and that's a gift.

Don't take any of this personally, but I wonder, did you do those things you b/c you actually cared about the child, or simply b/c you cared about the mother?  Did you ever resent the impinging on your sleep time to care for this squalling lillte wizend human who's loud, smelly, doesn;t know night is for sleeping, and is generally not much fun to converse with yet?

There's nothing wrong with you deciding not to have kids; several couples I know have elected to do the same.  That's fine; when in doubt don't do it I'd say.  But I do wonder if they will every look back and regret that decision when they are in their 60s and 70s and realize all the family things they never got to experience because of that.  They are legion.

In some respects, parenting is actually a very specialized form of insanity: you know good and well you are doing something life changing, and may be full of heartache, headache and financial burden.  It really doesnt make sense until you are one, then you can't imagine not being one.  But for me, family is pretty much the why of my existance; why do I work when I could probably slack off and get by on part time junk; to provide a good home and living for THEM, not for me.  My wife does not and cannot give me what my kids do.

I know you love your finance and I wish you all the best.  You may think that the two of you couldn't be any closer than you are in your love right now.  IMHO, you are incorrect; creating a new life together and raising it up would make you closer in a way you aren't today and give you an entirely new set of shared experiences, but that not to say your love is incomplete b/c it isn't.

Having a person whom you love to share your life with is priceless.
Having kids with said is person is simply priceless++.

Xilren
PS One last thing on the "kids in public can be disruptive and their are lots of bad parents".  Yep, plenty of annoying things in their. I see it no different than yuppy "dinks" who think their business is so fricking important they can talk on cell phone anywhere, anytime or 20 something idiots who try to shatter your windows with their "my amps go to 11" pimped out rice burner cars. Public place are just that; you can't turn it off like local chat in an mmorpg.  Deal or stay in you house more. (actually, i suspect people staying at home more and more and a primary option for anything {shopping, movies, music, whatever} is a new prevaling trend but that's a whole nother thread...)

Same here.  Had I had my way my eldest would never have been born.  Now, I honestly cannot imagine my life without my three kids.  Good thing the Big Guy upstairs has such a sense of humor.  I've heard it said that a person never grows up and becomes comofrtable with themselves until they both have children and lose their parents.  Having been through both life events now I realize at a very deep level it is completely applicable to me.

That said I completely support Soukyan/SO's decision to never have kids.  Last thing society needs is another family that's not fully onboard the nurturing bandwagon.  It's a shitton of work and the biggest responsibility people can ever take on.  Taking stock of one's personal needs and abilities is absolutely mandatory.

That movie STILL upsets me. I wonder how much of it the kids really understood? No matters- that should constitute child abuse or neglect. Please tell me you tackled her in the parking lot and sterilized her for the good of mankind?

While I don't have any kids atm I plan on geting when I'm done with college and have a solid job. Even if I don't really know the feeling of having kids I belive it would add a lot of purpose to life, and something to be proud of when they grow up. It also feels like if you have a kid, a part of you lives on after you're dead.

I know my wife and I are really looking forward to having children.  She a lot more than I.  I still want to be selfish for a while and in a happier place with my job.  That and right now we simply can't afford it.  Buying an Acura probably set kids plans back at least half a year. 

We've been "training" for the past year by occasionally hosting my nephews for weekends. A 7 year old boy that is deviously smart and a 3 year old boy that only weighs like 10lbs less than his brother and is as willful as any child his age I've ever encountered.  It's very difficult for me to not consider them tiny adults, my wife has a much easier time connecting with them.  Still, we've made it through each weekend without having to fallback on calling their parents.  I usually sleep for a solid day afterwards. 

There is never a right time to have kids.  Seriously.  Besides it's the most wild ball of Unexpected you'll ever have - trying to overplan takes all the fun out the process and never does any good anyway.

I love watching young women go through it, starting the wicked control freak and finally tossing it out the window and just taking each day at a time.  Takes guys longer to get up to Acceptance that everything is different but once we get there we tend to get laidback much faster.  Well those of us whose idea of being a man evolved past age twelve... took me twenty more years to change my definition, as shown by my Hedonism score.  8-)

Xilren, et al.: Thanks for the great replies. I'm impressed at this community. Seriously. I was fearing the worst and 'lo and behold, nobody became terribly bent out of shape. Thanks for the understanding of my viewpoint and thanks for the honest feedback for those with the experience.

You are right, Xil. The baby girl I helped care for for that short time absolutely loved me. She would light up and reach out for me when I came in the room or when she heard my voice she would look around for me (when she was old enough to do so, of course). She didn't even do that for her father. I felt bad for him, but yes, it did feel great when that happened to me. Mind, it did not give me the fulfillment that you so adequately describe, but I certainly felt something. I think the reason that I did not feel that was because it was not my own child. And yes, once I had thought on it, I decided that having children was not for me. Will I miss out on a lot? Probably. Will I regret it? I certainly hope not. I don't regret things I have done in my life thus far and I hope to die with no regrets. I'm seeking different things in my life, and leftover cash is not one of them. The money that would have been spent on a child will most certainly be spent on other endeavours so it isn't like I'm tied to some green chain of evil. Thanks again everyone. Good discussion.

Yeah, because, you know, giving in to a three year old throwing a tantrum because it might inconvenience some random blowhard teaches SUCH a good life lesson to the kid.  :roll:

OTOH, that's just fucked up right there.

Heh, don't plan on getting to do that after having one of your own :)    You'll likely be praying for the tot to have a nap just so you can catch a few winks.

Mark me down in the selfish-bastard kid-hating category--until my daughter came along. 

Best. Thing. Ever.

Regarding other people with crying/obnoxious/irritating children, the wife and I have become much, much more tolerant and sympathetic now that we have a two-year old to ride herd on.

I think I can top that.  Three kids, none of them could have been older than 7 or 8, in the front section of seats for Hannibal.  One kid was wandering down the isles just wailling with tears streaming down his face towards the end.  It made me absolutely furious.  Not for interfering with my movie going experience though (the movie sucked), just for the blatant disregard for their child. 

Now to swing this in different direction:


Try telling that to my wife.  I try, I really do. She's even got the time frame down when she wants to be pregnant so the baby can have a nice birthday during the school year.  :roll: I think sooner or later her desire to have a child will just beat down her desire to control everything and be completely financially stable before diving in.   We cave easily.

This And Xilren's post says it all really.
I had no interest in kids. i knew it was sort of expected from marriage, but secretly I was looking for someone like your girlfriend (even though they don't exist... trudt me on this. Talk to me when you're both 33-35 - either you have kids, are desperately trying to have kids... or with other people. She with somebody willing to have kids and you with a 20-something, you think will be diffrent once she reaches 30+).
Then I met a girl. fell in love. After a while she talked about kids, Irealised that I wasn't ready, but at some point I'd either "give in" or loose her. I also knew I would probably be a pretty good father... even if I'd rather be something else, so I said what the heck. I loved her too much to risk loosing her. Now, since I'm not stupid like Haemeihm and lets my wife read this board, I can honestly say, that if the choice ever came between my wife or kids, I'd pick the kids.

The love you feel for a child wont compare to anything you have ever experienced before. Not the love of parents and not the love of a SO. It's something so pure and so primal that it is often scary. There's a pretty simple and depressing reason why the suicide rate for parents that loose their kids is very high.
Me, I totally lost the ability to enjoy shows like E.R., because they always have kids dying from cancer and whatnot... scary stuff, which only touched me in a remote way before but cuts straight to my heart now.

And another thing. babies aren't cute. This is where men and women differ. We just had our second, and all our female friends says stuff like, "remember to enjoy this special time, they grow up so quickly..." While men - in secret, the wives mustn't hear - say "You'll get through it and get to the fun part soon..."
You still love the babies like nothing else, but it's when they start communicating they become fun to be around, and it's ok to feel that way. But the first time your kid says "I love you dad" and you know it's the most true thing they have ever felt or expressed, you'll never feel the same again.
And being a parent is just full of those experiences. Just ask me how I felt, when I lost our 4 year old for an hour...

When it comes to children, they have a way of destroying any kind of control you thought you had.

Or, to sum up: My children conspire against me.

We tried to plan it around my carreer... and waited too long. The first one came pretty easy. The second took 3 years and a lot of frustration and money (and this in a country where healthcare picks up most of the tab). My one advice would be, don't wait and plan too long. Or aprents started having kids when they were 18-20 - we're not built to wait (and every generation is getting less fertile as well). Get cracking - for God and country.

I hope no one took my comments in a derogatory manner as they certainly weren't meant that way. If you aren't into kids, that's cool. I certainly wasn't. Just saying that now that I have one I am having a lot of fun (with the added ingrediant of terror!) being a dad. 

Soukyan. I will certainly take you up on your bubbly wager. I can hear the biological clock ticking from here. I prefer Krug Brut Vintage but will settle for some Krug Grand Cuvee.  :-D

A lot of great responses from parents in here. Chalk me up as another one who didn't want to have kids initially, didn't want the responsibility, didn't want to give up my freedom. Well, things certainly change. I can't imagine living without my kids now (5 year old daughter and 10 month old son). Yeah, they are a huge responsibility, yeah disciplining them is a huge challenge and test of patience, yeah you give up a lot of freedom (uh, when was the last time me and my wife had an actual night out? umm...) ... but the rewards children bring into your life are ... impossible to quantify. You really do not know how powerful a love can be until you experience the love you have for your child ... and the love they give back. And the fun, the sense of discovery, everything new to them .... kind of gives you your own second childhood. They are perfect to stir you out of a rut, keep you on your toes, keep you flexible, keep you laughing .... dirty diapers and spilled juice and temper tantrums are a small price to pay.

And for an opposing viewpoint (just kidding) it really is all right if you don't ever change your mind.  I'll be 38 in September, and I have no desire to have kids.  It's not just the fact that it's probably not medically possible for me to have children anymore (ectopic pregnancy tends to ruin that tube, and finding out the other is deformed was the icing), but that my husband and I really do not desire children.

It wasn't always that way.  We got married and talked about kids, and how we'd raise them, etc., but it just didn't happen.  I told my husband that we either had a kid by the time I was 32 at the latest, or it wasn't happening.  Well, that ectopic happened when I was 30, and we weren't even trying.  But I think back and figure that it probably was for the best, even though I had tons of friends tell me that I would have made a great mom.

I no longer have the patience that I did when I was in my 20s.  I definitely do not want to be an older parent and pushing 60 before the kid is out on their own.  My mom was 29 when she had her youngest, and there is 10 years between my oldest and youngest brothers.  My parents are barely into their 60s and they have all the freedom they can handle.  If I could have had that, I might have had kids, but it didn't happen, so I don't.

And I'm just fine with that decision.  Makes it much easier to plan when the husband and I want to head off somewhere to go diving.

Ah yes me and mine are chomping at the bit to get in some blue water again.  My eldest has asked we work something out with her younger sibs so we can get her certified and take a trip.  Unless one has a good support network it's pretty much impossible to get away.  Fortunately we do.

Yeah, public toilets are great.

Oh, right.  You meant diving.

But that's not really the same. That's you coming to terms with reality. Examining your possiblities and making sure you enjoy life with the man you love - which is really great, considering how many people ruin a good relationship trying desperately to have kids, when nature tells them it's not going to happen. You thought it through and decided what was best for you.

Our point was that we've all heard 20-somthings say they'd never have kids (or said it ourselves)  and just made our longwinded "uh uh... talk to us again when you're past 35"-replies.

Of course a life without kids is perfectly fine. And I have more respect for adults choosing not to for various reasons, than unfit parents doing it without a second thought - but that decision is just not carved in stone when youre in your twenties.

And kids did cut into my diving, but not totally, and whenever my 4-year old sees someone in a wetsuit, she says that's my daddy... and in 14-16 years time, I get to show her that wonderful world beneath the waves.

In my experience, kids are a pain in the ass. My cousin now has 2 children, WAY before she should have had any. My young cousin is a complete asstard, and her mother does nothing to curb her misbehavior. I saw tons of moronic parents and kids in retail.

I don't particularly want any.

Also, please keep in mind that I'm still in college, and will be in college/prepatory programs for the next 3-10 years. If all goes accordingly, my profession of choice won't really allow for childrearing.

Or a social life, for that matter...as if I had one now.  :-P

I see lots of people who shouldn't have kids. I know others who don't have kids, but would produce good children (not to be conceited, but myself included). I wish less people would have less kids...too many fucktards.

I think he wasn't calling for the parent to give in to the tantrum, but for them to either drag their kid out of there and handle the situation in a more appropriate environment, or to quickly and effectively shut the kid up and teach them the lesson.  The second one is nearly impossible, unless you count smacking the kid (which I'd say was a bad call on the part of the parent, but it's their call to make) so it'd be nice to have parents keeping an eye on nearby restrooms and such so they can discipline their kid accordingly in an environment without many spectators.

And on the subject of irresponsible parents:

My girlfriend is from a Mexican family.  Her immediate family is pretty decent, they escaped from the hellhole of southern Texas/northern Mexico.  But man, the stories I've heard.  Stupid, stupid fucking people in this world.

"Well sure I'm in debt and my kid could use some money to go to college and we really only have our heads above water because my brother generously sends us money every month but... LET'S BUY SOME NEW CARS!  $0 down=FREE!"

That is a fantastic sentiment, and I think I speak for all responsible parents when I say that that is the preferred method of dealing with kids who refuse to listen. In a restaurant and they are making a scene? Take them out to the car until they can handle the situation (of course, if you are the only parent, how do you pay for the check? Ah details). If you are in a store - again, car or the restroom until they can sort out their anger.

But here’s the thing. There will always be situations when the above simply cannot happen. For example: The checkout line at the register. With all of those lovely candies and pretty wrapped things just reachable by toddlers. Who will WANT THE DAMN CANDY RIGHT FUCKING NOW! And so, you can either give in and give them the damn candy so they'll stop bellowing because you said no, or, you deal with it and the inevitable glares from clueless fuckwads.

Sometimes kids throw temper tantrums because they don't know how to express their displeasure rationally yet. And sometimes, there is *nothing* the parent can do. And you, a fellow traveler of humanity, need to fucking deal - knowing full well that the parent probably wants out of there even more than you do.

Smack a kid in public these days and you face the very real threat of jail and even loss of custody.  And by "smack" I mean corporal punishment well within the bounds of acceptability.

Sucks but true.

If you discipline your child correctly at home, those tantrums in public? They can be dealt with without beating the shit out of them, giving in to them, or having to drag them away.

Discipline being the key word...something many parents lack nowadays.

It's easy to talk about if you've never had to do it.  Just saying, and it's something you can't really understand until you've been there.

Perhaps, but I think we can all agree that my statement still holds up.

Maybe, but your statement is like saying "I want an MMOG done right".  It may be a good goal, and maybe you can claim that most don't make the mark, but it's not really saying anything.  Wherever it is you set the bar, you say many don't make it.  Ok, but it says nothing about the bar, why you set it as you did, or why people didn't make it.

How about a little discipline on the part of non-parents?  As in, understanding that glaring and complaining at us when our child is having a discipline problem is not helping anyone or anything?  I wish they came with a magic dial I could switch to "always on best behavior", but...

My daughter will be two at the end of July.  The majority of the time she's happy, reasonably polite, helps pick up after herself, doesn't like messy clothes, listens to her mother and I, and is a joy to be around. 

She can also flip into a near-hysterical tantrum at the drop of a hat with no warning.  She's started testing her limits, she isn't old enough to really have any sense of empathy towards others, and she can't always articulate her problem, especially when she's highly worked up.  She had one for over an hour the other night, and for the life of us we *still* can't figure out what it was even about.

I'm with Abogadro; you don't fully comprehend the ability of the small child to generate an unwarranted, incomprehensible raging shitstorm until you've had one of your own.  And sorry, Haemish, but there's no magical discipline tool for a kid that age that doesn't primarily involve a lot of gritting your teeth and sucking it up...

So true. Small children can work themselves into hysterical states that only time will get them out of. There have definitely been times where the only solution was to put her in her room and let her scream herself out and just weather the storm. Thankfully most of her outbursts have not happened in public.

Did I say there was a magic discipline tool that you could use and suddenly, everything would be all right automagically? No. I said what is needed is fucking discipline.

It's a SIMPLE solution. Discipline. Just because it is simple does not mean it is EASY. Two entirely different concepts. I think that most people who are parents believe that it should be easy, when it is the hardest fucking thing in the world. First off, kids are incredibly fucking cute. Absolutely, pricelessly cute, even when and sometimes ESPECIALLY when they are being bad. My niece is a well-behaved child but she acts bad sometimes, and even when she does, she's still just so cute doing it. Like when a kid who knows he isn't supposed to reach in the cookie jar is caught with his hand in the cookie jar and just gives you that "I know I'm bad, but I don't REALLY know I'm bad, see cute eyes AWWWWWWW!" look. You can just melt, and you know that the child is being bad.

 How do I know this, even though I do not have children of my own? Because even my nieces and nephews, and my dog who is like a really retarded non-speaking child, have this effect on me. And I can only imagine that the love I feel for my niece and nephews is about one-billionith of the love I'll feel for my own child. And when I have to spank my dog, I feel like absolute shit sometimes, because even though I know she's been bad, I feel like a fucking heel. So I can well imagine how hard it will be to discipline a child on which the sun sets and rises, even when I know they are being bad.

But that doesn't change the fact that the key to having a child act right in public is discipline in private, teaching a child just how far they can push it. That's the simple solution, it just isn't easy. And I think far too many parents think that it'll be easy, or that someone who is saying exactly what I said is telling them that "the solution is easy and automagic and VOILA! Nice child." I'm not. Simple, not easy.

Most parents want things to be easy, and they will almost never be with a child. And yes, sometimes, even with the best discipline, a kid will still act out in public, just because they can or for no discernible reason.

Bwahahaha!  If you and the missus are planning on procreation, yer in for a surprise...

Anyway, you're half right, you're just not comprehending the magnitude of the situation.

Discipline isn't complicated.  Any guilt you feel about it is quickly outweighed by the toll the behavior takes on the parents, trust me--"I couldn't possibly hit my darling little scooter-pookums" turns into "Shit, I can't beat the little peckerhead; now what the hell am I going to do?"

What it IS, is horribly, dreadfully tedious.

It's not *BAM* "Settle down and fly right!" followed by model behavior.  It takes time.  Lots, and lots, and LOTS of fucking time.  Frankly, I'm not sure if it ends (Lord, I hope so)...but it does get better.  Eventually.  In the meantime, the shit will fly.  At home, in public, you name it.

Most of us are not looking for it to be easy.  Ok, well, we DO wish it were easier.  But it's not--for us or you.  My daughter's latest batch of tempermental behavior has been going off and on for oh, about a week now.  It could stop tonight, or it could drag on another week.  Who knows?  Kids don't work the same way adults do. 

We're working on it, bear with us.  People bitching about it doesn't help--it provides attention for the kid and pressure for the parents to give in just to quiet the child down, ensuring more shit later.  Suck it up and help us out, folks; even if you don't want kids of your own, you'll be happy to have someone around to provide your medicine and fix your toilets when you're a tottering geezer.

I think you stopped reading after the sentence quoted. SIMPLE NOT EASY.

It's hard. It takes a lot of time, patience, blood, sweat and tears. Just like anything worthwhile. I'm in for plenty of surprises, but the time requirement and patience required for discipline is not one of them.

My only complaint is people whose kids act out in public, who either scream at/beat the shit out of their kid while still in public, or try to reason with the kid in public. IMHO, the instant the kid gets out of line in public, he/she should be removed from the public instantly and disciplined accordingly. If that means that parents can't go certain places with certain ages of children, then so be it. Having children is a lifestyle choice; it doesn't need to intrude unduly on the lives of other adults who either left their kids at home or are childless.

While I agree that there are some places you don't need to take kids, I just thought it was funny to call having kids a "lifestyle choice."  Good thing people choose that lifestyle choice....or else we'd be pretty fucked as a species.

I'm sure raising kids is hard, and now that I'm an officially expecting dad, I'm in the "oh shit this is gonna be hard" phase.  While I'd never take a small child to a fancy restaurant for dinner, if I'm at the store with my kid and that kid acts out...how is that intruding unduly on the lives of other adults?  The store seems like a fair game place to bring your child, and really, I could give a rat's ass if your trip to the store is "sullied" by a crying child.  Get a grip, it's the friggin grocery store.  The stuff that truly pisses me off is when I see the parents reacting inappropriately to their kid's behavior.  Jerking them around like rag dolls/smacking the shit out of them is never appropriate, let alone in public.  I was spanked by my parents once.  Once.  They discovered that Catholic guilt worked a lot better.   

Now if my kid was to ever act up at Wrigley Field, that's a different story.  There's just some places that are sacred.

Reasoning with kids is a huge part of raising self-disciplined kids.  Parents who always drop the hammer often have some of the worse kids.  "Instantly" is nonsense and completely unrealistic.  Next time you're out in public think through how *you'd* make this work.

All society has some obligation to children regardless of their own lifestyle choices.  If *you* feel otherwise go live in an adult-only communities.  Freedom of association doesn't mean twisting society to put lint in your belly button.

I would handle it the same way I expect other parents to handle it- as soon as the kid is making enough of a fuss for EVERYONE IN THE FUCKING STORE to stop and stare, I would drag their little ass out to the car and discipline them. If the kid can't be trusted to act correctly in public, then they don't get to go out in public.

I realize it is a really tough job, but it is one that is worth doing correctly. I would be horrified if my kids had everyone in the store staring at me. It is the people who just ignore the tantrum and expect me and everyone else to ignore it that fucking piss me off.

I have said it a million times, so here is one more- it is criminal that people need a license to get married, but anyone with functioning genitalia can reproduce.

As for those who are going to tell me that I will feel differently when I have kids- every time I see a kid going ballistic, I am one step closer to getting snipped. So I suppose I should thank the irresponsible parents- they are probably going to end up saving me a ton of money, time, and aggravation.

For those of you who do it right (and there are tons of you out there)- I applaud you.

No, I read it.  You're correct in saying the kids/parents need discipline, but you provide no evidence that you really comprehend how to learn or apply it, and the time and tribulations involved.  Your grasp of the principles is ok, grasshopper, but your technique and application are non-existent.

WAP:  ...that last post was so full of bullshit I'm not sure where to start.  I recommend you go for the vasectomy now, since if you were applying for one of those hypothetical reproduction licenses you'd surely fail.

To all the experts: please let me know the concrete steps of the successful "discipline" of which you speak.   I don't want generalities. Tell me what to do.

How you do it is up to you. All I am asking is that you don't do it in public. Take them outside, or to the car, or into a bathroom, or whathaveyou.

Maybe that's the issue right there. Though my daughter is usually well behaved in public, if she has a fit because maybe she can't get a toy or something, I'm really not concerned what random people in the store think about it. Who gives a shit if someone stares at your crying kid? Likewise big deal if you're in a store and see little Billy throwing a tantrum. It's called being in public for a reason, you have to deal with other people, that's life. I also don't like it when old people take forever at the checkout, I'm not about to say learn to make a transaction quickly and efficiently or stay out of the fucking store!. Just one of many minor annoyances you may have to accept in a public place.

I think it was Dennis Miller, talking about waiting in line behind old people taking forever to get through a salad bar...

"What are those things...?"

"They're called carrots, Grandpa.  They're good for your eyes.  Take a bunch!"

Eh, maybe ya had to be there...

Yes, it is called being in public, and there is a decorum to be maintained. I don't go in the store in my boxers, or scream obscenities at random passersby, or soil myself just to see the reaction of other people. Kids don't understand most of this, so they depend on their parents to teach them what is appropriate and what is not in a public area. The onus is NOT on the public at large to deal with your children; it is your responsibility.

Kids making noise in stores bug me much less than old people taking forever in checkout lines, because I can ignore the kids but I can't shove the old people out of the way.  Which is why I'm going to celebrate my 50th birthday by giving myself a Viking funeral.

I believed you just proved my point. Thanks.

I didn't realize I was being asked for specific disciplinary actions. Since I don't have children, only the dog, I probably don't have anything specific to tell you. I was dealing in generalities.

But I suppose it starts by teaching the child the word "No." And then teaching that the word "No" coming from Mommy or Daddy has consequences behind it. Start small with removing rewards such as "a timeout." Nose in the corner, not being able to play with favorite toys, etc. If the child decides to escalate it into crying fits, let them cry it out for a minute or two without rewarding them. Keep in mind, this is in private before you are ever taking the child in public much, and after they start to understand language. Let them cry for hours at a time if they so wish. Eventually they'll get tired of it. If you feel they've reached the point where even letting them exhaust themselves won't teach them the lesson, a good spanking never hurt anyone. Note, I said spanking, not beating a child.

I've seen it work with kids who only need a stern word from their parents to calm the fuck down in a store. But not every parent can do it, or will do it. And I may not be able to do it either.

Two things to consider from some limited experience:

1) Kids are not miniature adults.  Logic, reason, cause/effect doesn't always work with them.

2) Kids don't run on scripts.  A "No" given certain circumstances might work some hour, the next hour the same "No" will trigger a nuclear meltdown of epic proportions.

Part of the fun of being a kid is you don't have to be a part of polite society, you can act like a little monkey on crack and get away with it to an extent. Whether you see some kid running around a cart in circles laughing or pounding on the ground crying, you're not really "dealing with it" in any other way than observing a spectacle ... which could even be considered amusing.

Anyway, I'm not defending kids acting like demons and parents doing nothing, I feel quite the opposite, you just come off a bit "judgemental old man" on the subject. Even kids with fairly strict parents doing their best are going to have their moments of insanity.

I am not talking about kids who are laughing and playing (I saw a couple of kids messing around with each other at Costco over the weekend and got a chuckle out of it). I am talking about the kids who SCREAM and cry and carry on for minutes at a time, while their parents do nothing to intervene. Or who run around and repeated knock into other people, or knock shit off the shelves. Or the toddlers who are allowed to wander aimlessly thoughout the store with no supervision.

I am not blaming the kids- they are just being kids and testing their boundaries. I blame the parents who decide that it is too much trouble to deal with it. That fucking pisses me off- it is a disservice to the kids, and a disservice to the rest of us who are being annoyed by it.

I look forward to being "That guy" up on the porch yelling at those damn kids to get off my lawn.

With kids, it actually starts with teaching them "Yes."  Yes to good behavior.  Doing something good like asking nicely, saying "please" and "thank you", or picking up their toys?  Hugs and support for it.

Step two is ignoring the bad (unless it's dangerous) as much as possible.  Behavior has a purpose; if the behavior doesn't achieve the purpose, it's less likely to be repeated.  If they're screaming to get their way, but the screaming has no apparent effect, they'll get the idea it's not working and try something else--hopefully one of those 'good behavior' things like asking nicely.

"No" is step three.  Some is easy, like "no, hot!"  My daughter understands that touching something hot hurts.  On the other hand, it's been a lot harder to teach her not to bite.  She thinks it's fun and enjoys getting a reaction from other people--and she bites HARD; I've gotten more than one bruise from it and I don't bruise easily.  She's developmentally too young to understand that *other* people have feelings.  Until that happens sometime in the next year or so, I doubt we'll totally get rid of it (but we've been mostly successful.)

Those kids that calm down with a stern word?  That's the result of years of ongoing work, not "Step 1: Discipline, Step 2: ? ? ?, Step 3: happy fun time."   Great when you get there.  Until then, it's a source of constant hair loss.

Regardless, discipline is not about jumping straight into the negative consequences.  And it's *not* something you get to only deal with at home.  It will pop up at the most inappropriate times and places, and unless you can afford 24/7 child care you will be taking your kid into public when they're not up to their best behavior--I guarantee it.

(Discipline for your dog works differently; they're pack animals and respond best to you when you establish yourself as the dominant "leader of the pack.")

Edit: WTF does three question marks produce a frowny face...?

I'm well aware of this. I think the source of most bad parenting comes from not understanding this concept at all.

But you don't understand that it's maybe not bad parenting at fault.  No matter how good your parenting,  getting from point "A" to "Z" is a long process through points "B-Y" that will result in irritation and inconvenience for third parties along the way.

Yeah, some of it is just bad parenting.  I've seen my share.  My wife has seen more than her share; I won't repeat tales of her childhood other than to say it wasn't so hot.

But some of it ain't.  So cut those parents some slack if you're in doubt instead of leaping to the 72-point bold red profanity-filled hate.

I can't speak for the others here, but when I'm saying "Get your kid out of there so I don't have to listen to it" I'm not talking about the checkout line, or even the grocery store for the most part.

Movie theater?  Get the kid out of there, I don't care if it's a Rated G movie.  You're the one who took the gamble bringing them in there, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences.  Pretty unfair to ruin the film for the rest of us because you brought your kid.  If the kid is well behaved, great.  No problem.

One thing that's really driving me nuts lately, probably because I just went to Disneyland a couple days ago, is the complete disregard some parents have for other people's personal space.  The kid doesn't get the concept, I know, I get it.  But you do.  Get your kid the hell off of me.  Don't just sit there and talk with your sister-in-law while your children are playing tag around my legs.  This is especially true if you're one of those fuckwads who drags their kid around on a leash- why are you even using that thing if you're not going to keep your kid from standing 1 millimeter behind me in line and bumping into the back of my thigh once every nanosecond?  And if you're not using the leash, pull the kid back a foot or two and say "It's not polite to touch strangers."

As a matter of fact, let's try to teach our kids some games to play when they're in a situation like standing in line that doesn't involve running around.  20 Questions, for example.  Kids don't really get the idea of limited space, they just see everyone else in the line as an obstacle course.  And if they're bored, they're going to want to do something.  But if you see them getting restless like this, suggest that they play something more localized please.  And if they still want to play tag anyways, stop them and tell them it's rude, and that they can play something else that isn't bothering everyone around them or nothing at all.

Most parents know this, but not nearly enough apparently.  This last Saturday at Disneyland, I saw so many kids just going nuts, running around, tripping people up, getting in the way, and all around just making everyone near them uncomfortable while their parents didn't do a damn thing but sit around and talk about the last Oprah.  It's already an overcrowded, uncomfortable place.  Let's try not to make it worse, okay?

(btw, the rebuilt Space Mountain kicks ass)

 :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

There's a reason rated G films are mostly kids movies and whatnot....

But those same movies can be very entertaining to adults also, for very different reasons.

Also, why ruin the movie for the other kids who are behaving? Saying "it's a G movie, DUH!" is a cop-out.

Certainly a movie theater or library is a different thing, these are places where people have a right to a quiet environment to enjoy themselves.


That is pretty extreme, honestly I rarely ever see such behavior in stores. But kids in movie theaters that start sounding off are my one pet peeve that I have encountered too many times. During Episode III a kid started wailing and the parent jumped up immediately and left with him - I almost wanted to stand up and applaud her. Too many people have this weird idea about bringing kids to totally inappropriate movies or letting noisy kids get away with it.

Disneyland ... well a young child at Disneyland may as well be mainlining high fructose corn syrup, their excitement is through the roof and even well mannered kids go a little fruity.

Out of control and noisy is one thing.  A kid who wants to sing along with a song in the movie is another.

That's cool.  Most people would think that's cute.

I know the kids are Disneyland are excited, and that's allowed.  All I'm asking is that their parents at least take reasonable steps to keep them from plowing into complete strangers every few seconds- at least while those strangers are standing still.  In the crowds, okay, I can deal with kids running around and being in the way.  Everyone's in the way in the crowds.  But when we're in line, I really don't want to spend the next 45 minute with your kid's forehead jammed against my right ass cheek.  If you don't do anything about it, expect that I will.  And if I'm forced to do something to get your kid under control with you standing RIGHT there doing nothing, I'd say you need to examine your parenting.

And hell, I'm an extremely tolerant person.  A couple bumps I can deal with.  No big deal, it's a kid.  But I'm talking repeated, obvious, irritating prodding and pushing from some kid for frequently more than a half hour at a time if I didn't do anything about it.

(I should point out that when I say "Do something" I don't mean smacking the kid or anything like that- I mean telling the kid to back off, or asking the parent to control their child. It would have to be really, really extreme to make me actually physically move the kid away from me, and the kid would basically have to be coming at me with a weapon for me to react with any sort of violence, as should be the case with any decent human being.)

People who doesn't discipline their children is doing them a huge disservice. I know this kid who have only 1 brother, which is like 20 years older than him. His mother spoiled him, his father spoiled him and his brother spoiled him. Total freedom and had pretty much everything he pointed at. When he came to the age where he had to go to school and be with other kids he really got problems. The other childrens didn't want to play him, he didn't get invited to the other childrens birthday partys etc. He'l probably learn to behave once he figures out why nobody wants to hang out with him, but if he wasn't so spoiled and always got his way he would've been way better off.

There's one that always bugs me.. If a kid is doing something that directly affects me - physically bumping in to me, touching my possesions, running circles around my legs, whatever - if the parent doesn't intervene, I will. And boy oh boy do most parents get pissed off about that.

A stranger doesn't have the right to discipline someone else's kids, but they do have a right to thier own space. If a child is invading my space, I'm going to say something about it. Note, I said say something, I'm not advocating touching someone else's kids.

If I'm at the movies, and some numbnuts brings a six year old to a 9:00pm showing - that kid sure as hell better not start kicking my seat.

I really wish I had a porch to sit on and yell at kids from.

Once again yo uare failing to address the reality of the world. How do I follow this advice while in the grocery check-out aisle? How do I follow this advice if I haven't received my check at Red Robin? I know it's nice to make blanket declarative statements so you can justify your opinions on how horrible it is that those damned parents are inconveniencing you. But that's not how the world works. And I am *NOT* going to lock myself or my generally well-behaved kids in our house because we might somehow inconvenience you.

Again. Wellcome to humanity. Now suck it up and deal with the fact that life is inconvenient..

(And I still say the parent who took her kids to Seven, or a gormet restaruant should be taken out and shot. But that's just me.)

Well said. I *loathe* parents who let their kids freak out in movies . 'he's just a baby!'

Gah. Die, Motherfucker. Die.

"Hey you Damn Kids, Get Off My Lawn!"

But seriously, I cannto stand the kids in my neighborhood now....They're stupid and disruptive. Nothing like what I was like when I was a kid. He just played video games, board games, sports in our closest cul-de-sac, and stuff in the woods. We were no trouble to anyone.

Now, we have kids playing sports in our circle, but they're stupid about it. They hit the tennis balls for baseball in the wrong direction, and don't care if we all have our cars parked there.

And yes, a tennis ball CAN dent a car.

After yelling at them to stop hitting towards my car, I stole their bat when they weren't looking.

So you guys obviously have misconceptions about the type of parenting I'm talking about. I'll go into anecdotes.

Worked at B. Dalton's bookstore, where the register was RIGHT BY THE KIDS DEPARTMENT. Ok, no problem, kids are cute. Some of them. Some of them are holy fucking terror shit machines with snot cannons for noses whose parents should be sterilized because they are not responsible enough to masturbate into a petri dish, much less nurture the next generation of douchebags. I expect kids to punch the buttons on the talking books over and over again. It's annoying, but temporary. No, I'm talking about the kids who want a book and will not accept no for an answer. The kind of kid who when told No by his parent, FALLS DIRECTLY ON THE FLOOR AND STARTS FLINGING HIS LIMBS ABOUT LIKE HE WA STRUCK BY A FAITH HEALER. I mean flailing, limbs going every which away, tossing anything in his hands, screeching at the top of his lungs, then getting up and running around to start tossing books off shelves.

Or the cunt whose child pissed directly on the floor. At least she told me about it, then left the store without bothering to apologize or clean it up. That ain't the kid's fault. Either the kid should have had a damn diaper or training pants on, because it was that age, or the parent should have paid enough attention to the kid to know he had to water the fucking lilies. On my store's floor.

I'm talking about the kids who take candy off the shelves and toss it around because their mom won't buy them a candy bar. Or who actually reach out and HIT their parents when the parents tell them no. And I mean they haul off and smack the mom's leg or something.

If you've got a kid acting out like that in public, and there isn't some form of mental retardation or actual physical malady that is causing it, you suck as a parent and I want to have you publicly flogged. It goes beyond just crying in the checkout lane or wailing at a restaurant. I'm talking about the kids who either really DO need ridalin prescribed (and I think that shit is used WAY TOO MUCH), or need a good ass-whooping.

Kids will throw tantrums. Kids will act out and cry. That's what they do, and as a child, they won't even know why sometimes. I accept that, sometimes it's even cute. But those aren't the kids I'm talking about.

The "peeing on the floor" thing was bad (although kids can untape their own diapers goddamned quick).  And yes, taking a noisy kid to (or keeping one who becomes so in) a restaurant or theatre or some such place where a quiet, relaxed atmosphere is expected is definitely being a jackass.  However, the grocery store (or any non-highbrow store for that matter) or Chuck E. Cheese or Disneyland is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

The tantruming?  Lemme try to do this simple:

Children have tantrums (bad)

Parents get kids to not have tantrums (good)

Agreed so far, are we?

Now, you're leaping to the conclusion that because a tantrum occured, the parenting is lacking. 

The problem with that:  instilling discipline in children is a drawn-out process.  During that process, tantrums will continue to occur, for whatever the fuck reason(s) the kid is doing it.  Good parenting will reduce and eventually eliminate those tantrums, but it might not do a whole hell of a lot for the one incident that's annoying YOU right now.

Eventually little Billy or Susie will be one of those kids that behave like y'all want,  but they (and their parents) go through a whole crapload of trial and error, learning curve, relapses, developmental changes, etc. to get there.

A child acting out is not bad parenting.  A child with a history of acting out (and no improvement), THAT'S bad parenting. 

If the tantruming involves tossing real shit about that is not the child's shit (such as candy bars, books, whatever) and the tantrum isn't immediately dealt with, THAT is the parent's fault. I had many tantrums as a kid; shit, I was known for having temper tantrums.

Had I ever went so far as to start tossing shit around like I've seen kids do, I wouldn't have seen light for a week, other than the red glow of pain radiating from my spanked-red ass.

If they're at risk of destroying something that doesn't belong to them, it's time to remove them; I'll go as far as agreeing on that.  Otherwise, I think we're just going to have to disagree--I'm off to get my stitches removed, and I'm pretty certain I won't be up to acting civilized myself for a while  :-P