f13.net

Trivial loot code - prevents players from getting lewts if they are too high level or are grouped with someone too high level, in killing the monster in question.

There really is none that I can see in WoW.  The rampant farming this leads to is going to put the economy in the toilet.  But I digress:

This leads to sloppy grouping.

The abundant solo content is great.  But I expect instances to be tough.  So far - not as much as I would expect.  The encounters are fine - but if the encounter is 18-28 range, and there is a 35 warlock in the group - things get easy - and we don't have to pay too close attention to our roles.

I would appreciate a trivial loot code in WoW.  This would discourage folks well otuside the level range of the instance from coming in for a cake walk.  Sure I can decline these groups - but I see high levels often like this.

I can barely understand you these days J.

Which part confused you?

Probably the "rambling drunk idiot" aspect of the post.

Quick, someone chime in with something long and heady before this get slapped into the Den.

Edit: Removed inflamatory material.

I like the fact that there isn't any trivial loot code. My WoW playing style causes me to outlevel some of the areas/instances by the time I get around to them and some of blue drops from the now grey boss mobs are still better than what some of my characters are carrying. Plus it would make enchanting much more painful if I couldn't farm greys for green and blue drops.

I fail to see the problem in this. If its too easy with the 35 warlock, group with a lower level warlock. They should change the system because you are incapable of saying "You are too high for this group"?

I like small and suboptimal groups (my main group is Druid, Shaman, Hunter), in these small groups you sometimes need some level advantage over the bosses, and its still tough. Meaning I have to wade through armies if grey nondroppers before I come to the level appropiate named at the end of the instance according to your plan.

I would understand if those higher levels take away from your gaming fun. But the whole point of instancing is that they ain't!

The problem is there's a whole group of complete cunts who are mad that this isn't EQ1 and don't like that people can use this method to get stuff - even though it has no effect on them whatsoever. Obviously the answer is to not group nwith people 20 levels above you if you don't want too, but that doesn't stop EVERYONE ELSE from doing it. Since they don't like it, it's wrong and you should be forced by the very game itself to play the way they want you too. No good items unless you're in big guilds doing constant raids.

They spent years pointing to EQ's success as a mandate that people want a painful assfucking when they play a game and the fact that WoW is the direct opposite and has suge numbers threatens their entire life style. It doesn't bother normal people, but for the lifeless, useless pieces of shit who thought EQ is fun the mandatory grouping and retarded, harsh social dynamics are required for them to have a social life, even though it's not in any way, shape, or form real.

If you want shitty EQ1 gameplay, GO THE FUCK BACK TO EQ1. You've already ruined your game, you won't ruin ours!

Don't worry, the honor system is doing that for us.

That's StGabe's position, I didn't think it was jpark's too.  Damnit now I need to review his posts to make sure I'm not losing my mind.

High-levels helping-out Low levels with quests is the socialization that so many detractors say WoW doesn't have.  It's helped the guilds I've been in get tighter and has let me meet some pretty cool people just because they were having a rough time and needed some help.

 "Sloppy Grouping" comes not from trivial encounters, but from just wanting to have fun and mess around or being an idiot in general. Nothing wrong with just messing around and having fun unless you're of the pure achiever mindset and then you're not optimiznig XP.  The general idiot will usually fuck up and piss off someone in the group enough that you'll dump him anyway. Even if you don't it's not a huge deal because you don't lose anything when you die besides a trivial amount of cash so you're not such an anal-retentive fucker when you do die.  

The uber raiding 40+ member raid for 5 lewtz isn't the only play style, it's just the only one that's been catered too for so long that it seems that's all designers can envision as the end of the treadmill.  It's like the designers themselves sometimes forget their project is just a GAME and stop asking, "is this fun?" and never ask, "who am I aiming this at?"   I've been 60 since late February and I haven't seen MC once, but don't suffer from the "OMG NOTHING 2 DOO" mindset the powergrinders have.  Alts, crafting, helping other folks and PvP defense have kept me more than entertained, along with the occasional high-level instance run.  The main thing is I don't obsess and play 8+ hours a day, every day, even though I could.   Just once I'd like to see a dev team say something along the lines of, "get the fuck off your ass and go outside."

Or, just once, I'd like to see a professional saying 'Please stop paying my mortgage'.

Don't be so fucking stupid.

TLC sucks.  I was once sympathetic to level-capping the instances, but with the fast levelling in the game pretty soon gimping instances will be the only way new players can experience them at all (since full groups at those loevel will be rare).

Since they added numeric caps to the instances, these morons are in for a rude awakening when they do content designed for level 60 characters, and can't go level up to 70 to make it easy. 

Yes. Don't be so fucking stupid. These games are about profits and player retention, not fun, you fucking moron. Now get your poopsock and shut the fuck up.


Trivial loot code is a stupid idea. If I want to escort a few friends through an instance, with them hardly getting any exp at all, so they can get some decent loot without wasting an entire day, that's my business as a paying customer. If you need your assfucking particularly bloody, there are games out there for that. Unfortunately someone saw fit to put some of that bullshit in WoW.
ALERT ALERT Players caught having fun in a non-approved manner, STOP NOW APPLY ASSFUCK

Someone needs a hug.  /hug.

I did like his point about removing farming though, at least from lower level mobs.  That would move farming back to a pve server only problem as farmer bots would have to go to high level areas where high level players could just massacre them.

Other then that I'm not sure what the big stir is, and the points about instances were just stupid, nobody is forcing you to do them w/ higher lvl characters.

I think his point was that it is hard to get a pick up group together to do instances when they aren't mind-numbingly trivial, because your average b.net motard will only run instances when they are mind-numbingly trivial.  I have heard people bitch about that before, and it might be worse now that there are not as many low-mid level characters around.  I know that I have heard many people say Scarlet Monestary is OMG IMPOSSIBLE!!!!111! without a level 42+ warrior and they would never attempt the instance without one, for example, which is preposterous (the thing was made in beta when the level cap was 39 and nobody had talents for Christ's sake).  It took a while for me to find a group that would do it at the appropriate level, and it might be even harder now.

I'm finding that I much prefer doing instance runs when the associated quests have turned green.  Wading through all the yard trash on the way to the boss only to wipe on the boss just isn't much fun.  I want to get all the quests I need a group for and do them all in one run.  Being overlevelled has no effect on my sense of completion at finishing them.   

Of course some instances (Uldaman/Zul'farrak even Gnomergon sort of) need some instance-external running back and forth or collection type tasks.  I find my wife and I (Paladin/Priest) can duo the majority of the green presteps/collection tasks then hit up a group for the big fight in the instance.  When they just start throwing numbers at you it's either a matter of being extremely overlevelled or having a group.  Duoing stuff is a lot more fun for me then trying to setup a group get together then do it.  I'm in a guild and get along with the people there so finding a group (like level even) isn't that difficult but prefer to just hit stuff duo if I can to avoid the inherent group forming overhead stuff.  Level caps would prevent the overlevelling necessary to do a lot of the instance stuff in a duo and piss me off. 

Speaking of which I just can't understand the necessity for instance player caps.  If people are happy to hit stuff with 40 people then by all means let them.  The hardcore can look down their noses at the deplorable "zerging", but the casual players get to see the content that they might not otherwise get to. 

Yeah, the bnet kiddies are a little ridiculous when it comes to doing instances when you're "supposed" to. I did VC in my twenties (granted, it took 4 tries because people are Teh Stoopid), but did a final run through it when my war was in her mid-30's to get 2 friends' alts through it. It was amusing.

I still hate the bnet kiddies who refuse to do stuff unless it's trivial. Stop being a wuss.

Yeah, saying "We don't intend for players to engage the game 23 hours of the day" is stupid.  How foolish of me. That's why the game has an hourly fee!

Trivial loot code is an artifact of a level system which really doesn't encourage grouping as it should. It's a bandaid to a much bigger problem.

Sigh.  They DID say that.  ALL GAMES COMPANIES SAY THAT.  It has about as much fucking effect as the little additions on drink advertising that say 'Drink Responsibly'.  Again, don't be so stupid.   And, asking you seriously, do you honestly think that if everyone was playing 23 hours a day that the hourly fee WOULDN'T be far around the corner ?  Again, who's being stupid ?

Look at the shit that SOE are pulling just now with the Ebaytastic nonsense.

And as for Sky's comment about "These games are about profits and player retention, not fun, you fucking moron".  Well, yeah.  Exactly.  I know you were being sarcastic, but if games companies didn't have marketing and PR departments, that's EXACTLY what they'd be saying.

I know that you guys are always looking at Blue Skies, but when you forget the harsh reality of life is PAIN, then you're missing a huge part of the point....


Maybe my wording was a little harsh, of course, but, well, fuck you.

There is always a shift in difficulty perception...

There is the time when the quest is first accomplished because the general player base on a server is leveling up and every "normal" player is trying to do the quest to advance. This is generally during beta or right after retail (or patch when the quest is introduced).

Then comes the time when the majority of the server has done the quest and there is no one to do it with you except for a few people. And those people ponder doing the quest with a *challenge* or call one high-level to pwn everything that comes close.

Of course, everyone you ask has memories of how it was easy to find a group of people looking for a challenge. And they argue and argue with the people that have recent experience on how nobody wants to do the quest unless a high-level is here.

Your memories of beta don't count towards the current game experience. Those that only play with friends / guild are in the same boat as not counting. It's supposed to be a MMO. You meet strangers online and do stuff with them. Playing only with a few select friends keeps you in a little bubble about the general attitude of other players.

The shift is currently happening on the Euro servers and it's not a pretty sight. All the people that had 2 braincells have outleveled the content I am trying to enjoy since I am very casual. I am left with all the kids that don't know how to type or don't follow any instructions. Their only reply is to get a high-level to "solve" the quest basically. Thing that some of their "friends" seem to be eager to do but you have to constantly *wow* at their uberness.

Not sure I'll reroll.

d

So let's reflect that in our games, yes? Can't, at some point, man rise above this petty greed? Can't a man decide that making $40,000 which requires him to sacrifice gameplay in order to 'cash in' and make that salary is not worth it and take $20,000 instead? Is man so based in greed and selfishness that he can no longer hold any ideal above it? Because that's exactly what I do (make half the salary I could if I compromised my ethics), and it makes me sad to see I'm the anomaly.

And please, don't tell me about harsh realities, motherfucker. Until you've walked in my shoes.

Game companies don't want everybody logged into their servers 23 hours a day.  It's a waste of resources, and the players get burned out faster.  They get more mileage out of a player than only plays for an hour or two.  I believe this is the main reason we have ZZZ xp, and I'm down wid it.

Oh My Good God.  Forget 'Blue Skies' - What colour is the sky on your planet ?

Bravo on having morality and ethics learned from a life of harsh self-flaggelation.  It relates to the discussion of the reality not one bit.

But this is meandering so far from topic it's not funny :  Topic; catasses are bad.

But they're always going to be in games like this due to the nature of people and companies are going to want to cater to them since they are the 'hardcore' that we always go on about.

Yes, I agree that companie NEED to do more to encourage the casual gamer - but not because it's the 'right' thing to do, simply because it improves the revenue.  Blizzard did a fantastic job of this with some of their WoW stuff, but they have started to shoot themselves in the foot by their recent changes which totally ignore that very source of revenue.  They are making, in my opinon, not simply a bad gaming decision, but a very bad business decision...

But I'm sure Haemish needs to pop in right now to tell us that this is entirely expected in the genre and that there's no escaping the collosal stupidity of Mmorg business decisions.

Would he be wrong?

No.

And that's the problem.

Yeah I know.  That was my point.  My other point being that H says my thoughts a lot better than me a lot more of the time !

 :-D

MMOG companies have and will show a staggering ignorance of the actual play style of the majority of their players, simply because those players "just play" the games. They don't scream and whine on message boards, they don't organize or participate in massive lag-inducing protests, and they rarely answer surveys even if you move their hand remotely like a ouija board. Hell, most MMOG developers don't even know how many ACTUAL people are playing their game, as opposed to how many accounts they open up.

Without that knowledge, they can only design by what they THINK people want. Which, in Blizzard's case, with a hiring filter that thinks Tigole and Furor are good hires, means they are going to cater to the uberest, hardcoring-est, catasshole they can.

Can we start finding old interview quotes from blizzard guys and pointing out how they were all lies yet?

I'm sure that I saw how they were going to cater to the casual player in almost every one.

Oh, I forgot to mention...

The next killer app in MMOG's is one that causes low-voltage, brain-altering shocks to be given to anyone that posts on the company's official boards. We should make those places the vestiges of the criminally-insane hardcore.

A lot of that is the problem of the purchasing community--how do you expect designers to be able to figure out how the "majority" of their players play if those players never tell anyone? You can't sit there for months and months watching players in a voyueristic manner trying to guess what they are doing...

Good idea.

Some good points have been made in this thread.  I don't know if you any of you were following the example of the "moderator" above - but can't guys express a point without throwing sand at each other?

We could throw poo, instead...

Part of the appeal of this community is that Sky can call me a jackmonkey catass who dreams of sucking Furor's cock on this subforum, but still give me helpful HDTV advice on the general subforum, because we all love each other deep down.  Fuckheads.

(http://sth.grassspider.com/images/sthtitle.jpg)

Stop it, your making Iron Eyes cry.

Oh wait, that's humanity. And I said jackass catmonkey, for the record ;)

I love you man.   :cry:  Now go flame my trollbait in the other thread.

Considering all the angsty posts against catass farmers we accumulate on a monthly basis I'm surprised there are not more TLC lovers.

I was a bit surprised when I first started playing WoW that there was no disincentive to farm greys.  So I do it.  I'm not wrapped about it but then I'm all for virtual asset sales as well.  I don't think they do anything to hurt the game that attentive CS can't deal with.

No such thing in MMOG's that cost less than $20 a month.

Because I'm also a soloer in a world of forced groupers.

I used to be a soloer in a world of willing groupies.

Word.

TLC would just punish those that farm for reasons other than selling items on Ebay or the like.  I can still play casually today.  TLC would ruin a big part of that.

TLC was one of the many reasons I left FFXI.  They had it, and it absolutely sucked for the casual player.

When I was still playing EQ, I jumped on their RP server (heh). Left soon after because it had TLC, I couldn't do a quest or some shit. Hey, at leaast in EQ you could lose enough experience to de-level and go back and do the quest, right?

Ahhhhh, damn it you reminded me of another little gem from FFXI.  De-leveling is Satan's tool in MMOGS!!!  I will never play a game that allows you to de-level ever again.  Exp debt is close, but acceptable....for awhile.  WoW's system is spot on for me.

Ah yes, gotta love the old EQ days where people would delevel themselves during Plane of Fear raids and not be able to get back in to get their corpses.

Heh, that's a good one.  Very sadistic.

FFXI was similar since you'd drop a lot of your newly aquired level appropriate items to your pack since you can no longer use them.  That also means you have to go to an easier zone to get back your level since you are now reduced to the power of new born baby and the smallest beach crab would pwn you in seconds.

Yep, death surely was painful back in the "good ole days."

I'll never go back.

At this time, having done a number of instances (WC, SFK, SM, Uldamen, RFD, RFK) repeatedly I gotta say:

Thanks.

The absence of a trivial loot code makes me appear to be a far more skilled player than any reputation I enjoyed before.  People are so goddamn used to Candy Runs, where they overpower the encounter with levels, they run away from anything in the appropriate level range and have never learned to play their class.

This means I have not only put together groups in the appropriate level range - but sometimes 3 man runs.  My bank is getting loaded with Blue items useful to me - when I eventually level enough so I can use them.

Blizzard might have to dumb down the 55+ instances (not there yet) since bringing a few 70's to make it a Candy Run won't be an option for the WoW community.

Realistically, just like in EQ, I can't see anything wrong with  adding a TLC server to the sever line-up.  Offer choice.

Putting together groups in the appropriate level range currently is not easy.  People for the most part are not used it, nor have developed the proper grouping skills / class skills for difficult combat.  Every time I have to coach them through it only after I have coaxed them to try it.

You know what, I typed up a whole bunch of stuff but I realized it comes down to once phrase a piece.

Will never happen.  (TLC server).

And who fucking cares. (Game changes at 60. No one's forcing you to do those instances not to mention trivialize them.)

One thing I've found is that if you just play the game in the normal manner, questing along and not grinding you actually skip over a lot of areas and their associated quests turn green or grey by the time you find them. Maybe this is because I played Beta for about a week before deciding I'd seen enough

While I have some alts I don't often play them, and really enjoy doing as many quests as I can with my main. Then there's also the challenge factor of doing a solo VC run just to see if you can..



Maybe you should STFU and let them play however they like? Unless of course you pay for their accounts.

As the other guy above said, wading through hours of elite yard trash is just not always a lot of fun..

Az

Myself and 2 60s helped a couple of our late starter 30ish guys through SM the other night. It was fun, and without us it wouldnt have been do-able. We'll repeat for all of their instances and elite quests they have, its all about having fun with your mates at the end of the day, levels are irrelevant.

It's nice to be able to do that and certainly that is fun.  But I am beginning to see a trade-off.

When the community at large becomes used to inviting higher levels to overpower the mission, it becomes difficult to find pick-up groups that are willing to do the scenario in the intended level range. 

The TLC server in EQ had some interesting dynamics.  Early in the game's history it was the least populated server.  In latter half of EQ's product time the server climbed dramatically in population as people looked for a different style of play from the community on that server as content became exhausted.