f13.net

You want news? I'll give you news

I have given up on this game, for a lot of reasons. I know a lot of people respect me, and my word carries a lot of weight. i can't support this game. I don't want to be the reason countless people buy the game

Let me be absolutely clear on a few points though. There is a game. It's not yet ready for release, but the devs are working their asses off because they want the game to succeed. This is not why I give up. In fact, the devs are the main reason I've stayed on for so long. Because I like them and trust them, and because I thought they deserved this chance.

But how can a game succeed when the US publisher is the biggest jerk on the face of the planet? A man who has no respect for rules, even when they're his own, and even less respect for his own customers, and less still for the people trying to work with him?

I've spent months now, trying to keep people from leaving the community in disgust every time that man opened his mouth. I can't keep up with this level of superhuman stupidity and incompetence.

As a community member, I have to deal with him pissing us all off with arrogant and offensive remarks. I have to deal with this kind of person being in charge of a game I'm interested in. I don't trust him to hire decent GM's. I don't trust him to buy decent servers. I don't trust him to fund the development long enough to get the game to a playable state.

As a beta tester, I'm still tied by the NDA, and I respect that, for the devs' sake. But I can say that you should all be glad you're not testers, because then you'd have to put up with even more of Dave's crap. You saw what happened with the videos. Some of us get permission to post screenshots and videos, and when we do, he insult us, and tell us not to post any more of either.

As a moderator? Well, don't even get me started. Again, I can't and won't give you any details, because unlike Dave, I have a minimum of respect for rules. But let's just say that if we could, and I speak for *every* mod here, and a few of the devs, we would have banned him countless times already.
And let's just say that you are extremely lucky you don't have to deal with him on the moderators board. We've always tried to compensate for his incompetence, apologize when he did something stupid, and in general, try to help people deal with the fact of having him in charge.
In return, we just have to put up with more crap. We have to put up with personal abuse, general insults, with the fact that the one person who most deserves a ban is outside the rules. We have to put up with him changing the rules on the forum with no prior notice to us. We have to put up with him randomly deleting threads he doesn't like. We have to put up with him making a new account every week. We have to put up with him deleting an entire subforum for no particular reason, and without ever giving an explanation. We have to deal with him banning people (and moderators), and occasionally even deleting their account completely. We have to put up with being told that we simply don't matter.
[edit]
After posting this, I noticed that he has now even deleted a thread on the moderators forum. We complained about his recent actions, and even there, he deletes threads.
[/edit]

A lot of you have asked why I haven't preordered. My answer has always been that I never preorder a MMO. That is true, but it's not the full story. The other part of it is that the way things are going now, it's not worth preordering. Not because the devs intend to s-c-a-m you, or because the game doesn't exist, or because the CC handling company is a registered spammer, or any of the other crazy conspiracy theories that are floating around. Simply because the man in chargeof the American release (which is the only one you can preorder) is the most incompetent publisher I've ever seen.

To summarize:
You probably all know how big a part of a MMO customer service and GM's play. And guess who's in charge of this. You also know how important it is that the devs are given time to develop the game. Guess who makes this decision as well.
You've seen the screenshots and the movies. Make up your own mind on what they show, what they don't show, how they show it, and what it means for the game.
You've seen their estimates on how many people to invite to beta, and how long it should run for. Compare that to how other games run their beta, and make up your own mind on what that means for the game.

So, in closing, I'll just ask you all to consider this game from an objective point of view. Forget the conspiracy theories. Forget the blind fanboy'ism and forget the people who just want to flame the game. Stick to what you know. Stick to the available screenshots and movies, the info available from devs, the way they keep their promises, the way the publisher acts, the way the community is treated.
Then ask yourself this: Is it worth waiting for? Is it worth preordering?

I know it's not worth it for me.
It sucks, because the devs are good people, and the ideas behind the game are good. But I don't believe they can pull it off while Dave is involved with the project.
And for that reason, they shouldn't count on my support any more. If, as Dave says, we moderators aren't important, then there's no harm in me telling everyone why I don't believe in the game. The man in charge has told me nothing I do matters.

I'm just sorry I led so many of you into giving this a second, third or twentieth chance when it clearly doesn't deserve it.
And I'm sorry for the devs who have their dream game tied up on a person like this.

Finally, I suppose I should just mention that I am completely serious in the above. I am not using all this as some kind of threat to get Admini to get his act together, because I don't believe for a second it will happen. I don't trust him to be able to do anything like that.
It is simply what it appears to be, a warning to the community. A warning from someone who's been here longer than most, and had to put up with more than most.

Important edit: (A bit of clarification)
All of this obviously only deals with the US publisher. I've heard lots of good things about Gamigo, the publisher in Europe/Canada. And as I said, the devs are great, the ideas behind the game are great. So with any luck, the game can get the success it deserves there.

One of my main reasons for all this is that I don't want to be the reason people follow the game. I don't want to be blamed for luring people into believing all is well. I have no wish to hurt the game or the devs. I know that is what I've done, but I never wanted to do so.

I'm not saying the game is doomed. I am saying that I believe it to be doomed, in the US, at least.
Not the "I believe" part. It's up to each of you to decide what you believe."

Enough of this!

All of you people had enough of this, and you should stop now, please.

This very forum is for game related discussions, not about spoon, me, ego, dave or whatever else this show was made from..

Enough harm was done already, I'm sick of it and don't want to see any more of this.

So, keep this forum clean please. Any subject related with the above mentioned problems in this forum and in any other of this board excepting the below mentioned one will lead to an instant ban in the following days.

And if for no matter what strange reason you can't let it go, please feel free to go and bang your head on the Black Hole Sun's forum walls.. you can do it in there!

David Jasinski

We didn't supported Spoonbender's public accusations, not even mutually. I stickied his (deleted) thread exactly because by deleting it and trying to hide it is not the way I believe these kinds of things must be handled, and also, because by deleting it it would have done much greater damage tyan was already done by Spoonbender's crash.

I didn't banned him, and not because what he did it was a good thing (in fact, was a pretty worng and most important, ugly one), but from respect for all the time, dedication and help Spoonbender provided us during his volunteer team time spent in here. That's the same reason he's still in our beta ,and not forever banned because of this story. And quite frankly, that's an even harder punishment than banning him, as he did realised (even if too late) that what he did as a moderator of this community was totally wrong and out of the line..

Also, you are all wrong when you are accusing Dave for everything what happened.

Yes, we had our rough times with our above mentioned publisher, and the older of you should know this. But that's a normal situation in any kind of relationship, specially in a business one. Sometimes there are good times, sometimes there are bad times. That's how life is and will ever be.

But Dave is far away from the bad image all are seeing in him right now. What you all should keep in mind when you're thinking/talking about this is to consider that Dave loves and believes in this very game as much as we and you do, and everything he ever did, he did thinking that's the best for the game.

He and his actions might be wrong sometimes, and some of them trully were, yet he NEVER did it with the intention to harm, but actually because he thought that would have helped. He was wrong, but he has man enough to admit it almost each time he did it, including this very special one.

Also, Mourning is what it is because the "criminal" Dave had a total faith and trust in the concept I put up for this game. If Mourning will ever be the game it should, is also due to this, that he, as publisher, never pressed us to change the game's concept, and totally support our ideas and believes.

Please think about this, and stop this "die Dave' madness! He's one of our team, and the game you'll gonna get (and maybe love, as some are already doing) is due to him too.

Dave, I sometimes hated your for the childish misteks you did on this very board, but that doesn't mean I love you the less!

Thank you!
Dan Antonescu
Mourning's Lead Designer, Community Liaison Manager and Public Realtions Manager

Mourning, publishers and investors

Well, this new thread tries to explain how the things stand here and what is the relationship between the 3 parties involved in this venture so far.

We have 3 companies:
1. Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC (LHE) which is the owner of the game
2. Newrosoft R&D which is one of the developers and is owned by me
3. Quad Software which is the other of the developers and is owned by Licuriceanu Adrian the current lead programmer.

So far LHE funded the game with around 95% of the money and the rest of 5% has been funded by me during time. Basically LHE can do whatever they want with the game, the code and everything. You must be aware of the fact the LHE is not a common publisher since they do not have any facilities to get the game in stores. In fact there are small chances that during the next 3 months to have the game on the shelves. But you must be aware that Dave ('the retard' 'moron' or whatever you want) spend an enormous amount of money from his own poket or from some other bussiness he may have to develop this game. I personally think that after he spent so much money he can be a little arogant.

I know that he is a pain in the ass sometimes and he pisses me off more often but in the end what it matters is that because of this man Mourning today is close to release. From what I know it is the only case in the industry when a MMO is financed by one person (since he is the only one in LHE) and it gets to the shelves. There is no group of investors, no one bought stocks into our company, we do not need to return no money to anybody, nobody can force us to develop the game as they want. All we need is to get the game in a playable state.

And now we move to the second component of this adventure. The developers. Both companies Quad and Newrosoft are located in Bucharest, Romania and they are owned by the Project Manager and the Lead programmer. Many people asked themselves why are 2 companeis developing a game since I think this is another singular case into the industry. The answer is simple: because Quad Software is developing the engine that is behind the game, called Abyssal Engine (now they are developing the third version of the engine) and Newrosoft is developing the actual game. SOmetimes our activities overlap but since we are in the same office we really work as a single entity.
Also you must be aware that both companies when we started making this game were a start-up and in 2001 we had exactly 2 eomployees beyond me and Adrian. Now we have a team of 20 people working full time at 'Mourning' and after launch we will increase it with at least 5-6 people to take care of the GM, heldesk and other aspects of the game.

The last component, meaning the game is in a good state. It does not have all the features we wanted to put in but it certainly is in a playable state. Each day we are closer to completion and we will launch the game as soon as it has no 'show-stoppers' meaning bugs that prevent you playing. The client is completed, we sent the CD to US and from one moment to another LHE will start printing the CDs.

Moving back to the mith of the publisher that cuts features and forces the poor developer to put features in or to change things at the games, in my entire experience in the game industry I never met this. My companies developed around 15 games until now and except some small games where the owner did not know what he wanted we had always freedom to do what considered best if we kept ourselves into the original concept document we received.

This game will be relased when we will consider that is in a good shape (and I belive this) and all that I want to say is that I am proud that I made it. I think myself as one guy that lived to see his dream come true (even if the dream I had was more a chimera than something that could get to reality) and for this I thank the comunity (meaning you - my reader) and I thank Dave that even if he pisses everybody off (including me) had the patient to wait 3.5 years.

I consider myslef an indie developer since we are a small company and I have no real publisher to back me up. When you judge a game you must think who made it and how it made it. We do not have the manpower and the proffesionals Blizzard for example has but we have the dedication to make a game we would want to play.
If we succeded to make a good game or not...you will find out somewhere next week.

Egomancer

Each day we are closer to completion and we will launch the game as soon as it has no 'show-stoppers' meaning bugs that prevent you playing. The client is completed, we sent the CD to US and from one moment to another LHE will start printing the CDs.

Jasinski deleted himself from the board

MMORPG.COM News : Mourning Removed
Date : Mar 21, 2005
Author : Craig McGregor
Today MMORPG.com has made the difficult decision to remove the game "Mourning" from our list of MMORPG's as well as shut down our Mourning specific forums.

We would like to clarify that this decision was not based on the actions of any community members at MMORPG.com - rather our core feelings about the company behind this project, and the way they treat us and their community.

As always, we would like to encourage our community to comment on this news post and let us know how you feel.

Thanks to all of our members you for your continued support of MMORPG.com.

What? Another lawsuit threat? In this day and age? Once again, Something Awful has fallen prey to yet another evil lawsuit threat of doom. Today's horrifying buzzbomb dives shrieking from the clouds courtesy of the developers at Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC., who are currently producing some game named "Mourning" about elves and fairies and orcs and shit. You know, because gamers have been demanding more games with that crap in them, and the market clearly does not have enough. "Won't somebody PLEASE make a game where I can stab elves with swords?" is one of the most popular complaints I hear every day, particularly before I wake up in the morning. Regardless, Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC. is making yet another crapfest snoozathon game about magic swords and hit points and junk, so Taylor "Psychosis" Bell made a little fun of them on his front page update. Now keep in mind Taylor admitted he never even played their game; it hasn't been released yet, so how could he? Unfortunately, this was not enough to appease the bloodthirsty psychic vampires at Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC, and they launched after us like a cruise missile once somebody literate read to them what we had to say about their game. Which we never played. Or want to.      

They fired off their legal salvo almost immediately, releasing this warhead of impending doom towards Something Awful Headquarters.
You'd think after running Something Awful for nearly six years, yes, I would understand what the terms "defamation of character, libel or slander" mean. We've never been sued once, so I guess I'm just getting lucky here or something. After receiving this letter, I approached our legal representative, Leonard "J." Crabs, and asked, "dear Leonard, what does 'libel or slander' mean?" He replied, "which one, libel or slander?" and I said, "libel or slander" and he repeated, "which one?" so I repeated, "like I said, I need to know what 'libel or slander' mean." Then he just got up and stormed out of the room, leaving me there to clean up all his used watermelon rinds and shotgun shells. I guess he left because he knew how much hot water we were in thanks to the astute legal professors making up the Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC staff!

Later that night I consulted with Leonard again, and through a series of comical flag waving and light show displays, he instructed me to send the following letter:
Leonard was very adamant about receiving his copy of "Big Tyme." The unicorn was more my idea because, really, who doesn't want a unicorn? Besides the communists, that is. I thought my reply would satiate the growing legal appetite of Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC., but it turns out I was wrong... DEAD WRONG. This legal boat was cruising down Pain Lane, and there was no way for me to get off! Wait, that sentence makes no sense. Forget I even wrote it.

Not only do we intend on fighting your lawsuit in court, we additionally plan on suing ourselves once your lawsuit is invariably thrown out on the grounds that you people are dangerously incompetent in virtually every aspect of life. We plan on suing ourselves for successfully not being successfully sued by you, therefore creating another grievous case of "defamation of character , libel or slander" since our upcoming legal victory over your company will create the public opinion that your company is completely staffed by subterranean mole people who know nothing about the law. You may consider yourself the "head subterranean mole person" if you so desire, or the CEO of Mole People if you're into brevity.

Dear Signe,

Congratulations!

Your Pre-Order for Mourning has been successfully charged, and
will be shipped shortly.  You will notice a charge of $29.95 on
your credit card statement as "Internet Services".

Your order will be shipped to:

<Secret Decoder Ring Information>
 

Or if you specified a separate shipping address it will be shipped to the proper address:

If you ordered multiple copies, you will receive the number you ordered.

If you have any questions, please contcat us at orders@realmsoftorment.net.

Best,

The Mourning Team
orders@realmsoftorment.net

Did someone  link to here from the Mourning forums?

Lydar Synn
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 5
   Wow, this is too much

Ive been following this game for a long while. I don't post much (obviously) as I usually find it hard to fairly comment on a game until Ive played it. However, the rancor on these boards and the seemingly endless problems have seriously turned me off to this game. Its a shame really because some of the concepts are very interesting. Oh well maybe things will get better- they don't seem like they could get any worse.

_______________
   
Jdodger
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 874
   

Ok.

__________________

   
Eynahsint
Junior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 20
   

with replies like that, no wonder you got 871 posts.

_______________
   
egomancer
Administrator

Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 521
   

Bump

_______________
   
Schloss
Junior Member

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 7
   

Wow. Developers start to bump threads now. Bored at work already?

_______________
   
egomancer
Administrator

Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 521
   

Not yet...but I thought that I should bring my ideas to this thread...

Egomancer

_______________
   
Gufnork
Member

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 60
   

Well "Bump" is a very good idea...

_______________
   
Jequan
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Innsbruck / Austria
Posts: 151
   

    quote:Originally posted by Gufnork
    Well "Bump" is a very good idea...


Actually the best idea i've seen lately.
Sorry i just can't help it.

__________________

Okay, NDA has been lifted so I will chime in with my views of the game.

Since getting into beta over a week ago I have been able to connect 3 times. The first time was for about 1 minute then it crashed. Last Sat. I was able to get in for an hour, tried to get on later but the servers were down. The third time was yesterday afternoon when I could get on the server but no NPCs were spawned, no health was regenerated and you couldn't see your fellow players. Here is my impression of the game from the brief experience I got to play it.

1. Guards don't work, you can PK another player in a city and they just stare at you.

2. No skill/spell descriptions in game. In the beta forums they were kind enough to give us a list of the spells but not a skill list yet.

3. Regeneration is very very very slow. You regenerate I believe it is 1 hp per second. At level 1 you have 270 hps, this means you're talking like 4.5 minutes to regenerate. You can buy health potions but it seems silly to have to chug those just to play the game. They are increasing this to 10hp per second though.

4. Very uninspired combat. From what I saw of the weapon skills everything was very plain. You basically hit autoattack and start swinging, doing a special attack causes a red streak to appear behind your sword while you swing it.

5. There is no indication on the NPCs as to who will talk to you and who won't. I basically wandered around clicking on every single NPC getting messages saying SoandSo doens't want to speak to you, eventually I found the trainers. I saw no way to tell them from the regular mobs.

6. Quests.... are there any?

Like most people here I want this game to succeed. But due to it's lack of server stability, so so gameplay and community relations I'm starting to have my doubts. It is in no way ready for retail and I would find it very difficult to recommend.

Hey, the year 2000 called, and it said EQ wanted its graphics back.

I can overlook graphics for good gameplay.

I don't care if it's a major title like Halo 2, try before you buy.

Most people did try the game before they bought it...by playing Halo.

Stop trying to teach me a lesson, Mace.  I am obviously beyond help.  :oops:

I can overlook graphics for good gameplay.  Heck, I still play text-based games.

much of that is in some strange Romanian broken English peppered with some of the most creative mispellings I've ever seen.  You don't have to dig far, either... it starts at login.

1. NDA will be lifted today.

2. Cancelled orders that have been billed need to be charged back (you need to discuss with the publisher and/or the company that took care of the preorders)

3. Regarding payed beta - we are still discussion solutions here . As soon as we reach a conclusion we will notice you.

4. CDs will be sent to people this week (this is why they have been preordered).

Egomancer

Because the whole scandal with the preorders charge we decided to change the billing compnaies.

As a developer I do not know who's fault is for people that have been charged twice when they should have been charged once and people that did not have been charged at all even if they preordered.

We will post more info on the new company (that will be a lot larger one) when we settle all the other information about this.


Egomancer

P.S. All the boxes for the preorders will be handled by the current one.

There are a few people here which I really respect. Since this game has been a small one from start we had a tight connection with our fans.And you KoldAleDrinker are one of those guys.

Again, I am telling you that I do not have any option. Really I do not have.

And yes, you will pay to play a game that still should be in an alpha/beta stage. It should never get to this but this was our limit of competence...

Egomancer

P.S. I will write a longer email later because I have something to do at the servers right now...

However, I never thought that we'd see a release that would out-crook, out-suck, and flat out out-stupid World War II Online's launch or Shadowbane's launch. I have been corrected.

Well, WW2 and SB were made by professionals. I've started to look at Mourning as a indie MMOG. It's made by people who want to create a good game, but, to be blunt, don't have the resources, discipline and experience of the pro's.
And that shows, I guess... :P

Well, WW2 and SB were made by professionals. I've started to look at Mourning as a indie MMOG. It's made by people who want to create a good game, but, to be blunt, don't have the resources, discipline and experience of the pro's.
And that shows, I guess... :P

I have no idea what the fuck you just said.

But my head hurts now.

This is no way how  to treat you fanbase, you have no pr, you have no updated webpage, you are romanians, you can't spell, your ideas don't prove things work, you're to small to survive anyway, pay-for-beta-to-help-bloody-industry-no-way etc.

So it seems everyone(many) cannot live without Sony, Microsoft, etc. Coz they got all the above. And people like it. Customer is king. And everyone just loves indie developers. They are so cute.

I don't even know what I want to say.

Viklas!!!!!!!! (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail43.html)

I can't tell you how many boards I've been banned from.  I nearly always know when I'm breaking the rules and if I get booted...  yay me.

Try harder.

I have no idea what the fuck you just said.

But my head hurts now.

At least 7 or 8, not counting my old usenet days.  These include twice at IGN, the UK Big Brother board, Christianforums.com, BOFH conference on CIX,  and some other useless places.  Oh, I'm ip banned from corpnews too, it sems.   This doesn't include my olden usenet days.

I've also been banned from The Realm, Helbreath, The Legend of Mir and dozens of MUDs.

This, I believe, is the fat lady warming up...

http://www.pcgamer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4521&highlight=julie+blue

Who would ban Schmoo from anything?  He's such a sweet old fart!  I only said anything because I don't want Shockeye to think I'm not trying.  I always pour my heart and soul into everything I do... unless I'm feeling lazy. 

As for this:


shadowbane???

Sorry to give you all the undigested stuff... Well I started to read the Mourning forums by mistake. What I cannot understand is how  come I got so addicted to reading them? I don't play MMORPGs (I am afraid to loose too much time). So maybe this is more or less usual :)

1)  I didn't say "don't blame the devs".  I think they never had any word (besides designing & implementing :)). And I think they will go forward with whatever the owner of  their code wants since they want their game out. (I don't even think they had a business plan)

2)  From what I read, the market for PvP is small and risky. So the big companies go for the safe stuff. So while they want to try out new  stuff, many pople still judge in the framework set up by the big publishers regarding many aspects.  (I'm not talking about the billing debacle here - it just shows even more that one has to be "non-reasonable" at least,  to put money in Mourning as an investor)

Maybe you just like watching a train wreck.  God knows I do.

In other words, the devs created this mess, are perpetuating this mess, and will support this mess down to the last scam.  Somebody else may have actually charged the cards, but without the devs playing along, for whatever reason, this mess would end right quickly.

Yeah, because look at games like the NFL and Soccer and Baseball and Poker, nobody rich invests in PvP, because the market is unproven.  Nobody much ever played Diablo 2, or Counterstrike.  Big companies would never take a chance on a PvP game, like Planetside, or Guild Wars, and Puzzle Pirates and Eve can't attract any following.  The history of PvP is just an endless litany of failure.  Oh, wait, its not an endless litany of failure, is it?

Maybe the problem isn't PvP.  Maybe the problem is being professional.

No, they really weren't. The Shadowbane team started up pretty similarly to the Mourning team from what I understand. They just happen to have come up during the Internet's Heyday of "We'll invest in anything with the word internet in it." Cornered Rat being professionals? Not knowing of their history before WWIIO, I'd be willing to say they MIGHT have been professionals. They just never acted or produced like it.

I was defending the people who were robbed to the fanboi base in that thread. Spoon didnt post in it at all other than to brag that he reported me and thus got me banned... so, I dont see any badge of honor in that deal. I see a once "important fanboi" who fell from grace

Greetings,

Due to restructuring and new investment deals; all current subscriptions to Mourning are scheduled to be terminated and the project will be placed back into closed development status.
All current active subscribers have been issued refunds. Refund types are dependant upon date of signup.
Refunds are provided at the sole discretion of Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC.
For more news regarding Mourning's development please visit the official site regularly!
Best Regards!

Limitless Horizons Entertainment LLC
http://www.realmsofkrel.com

    Listen, lad. I built this kingdom up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was swamp. Other kings said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show 'em. It sank into the swamp. So, I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So, I built a third one. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp, but the fourth one... stayed up! And that's what you're gonna get, lad: the strongest castle in these islands

      - Monty Python and the Holy Grail, Scene 14

Evidently, an email went out today to all those who subscribed to Mourning:


This is second-hand as I don't subscribe to this... umm... game?  Anyway, if you go to the website stated, it's not there. It seems to have been updating for a couple of days now.  Rumour has it that some Korean firm bought the publishing rights.  Some people just have more dollars than sense.

Prediction: Rubies of Eventide: Part Deux

I'd love to see a concise write-up on the fuckups of Mourning, complete with quotes and shit.

There's quite a lot of information at one's fingerprints to write the teutology of the game's failure, to doubtlessly be titled Harsh Light of Mourning, and what will also doubtlessly be a masterpiece.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm?load=forums&loadforum=51&loadthread=37720&setstart=1&loadclass=35&fp=1600,1200,464027593,20050713060257

http://www.corpnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1892&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=mourning&start=0

etc