f13.net

So after having to return home to regroup from some bad career decisions I'm attempting to relocate, get a job etc.  I'm focusing my efforts on the San Luis Obispo area of California.  It's a college town and there's a decent sized tech sector there - software companies and such - which fit my skillset (such as they are). 

A little embarrassed here - but my questions are related to the interview process.  I've been researching some of the companies I'm applying for, and they appear to be more progressive, relaxed, and...well hip I guess, with a younger employee base.  I'm in my early 40's but I'm wondering if the standards I used to use re: applying and interviewing are a bit dated.  I don't consider myself completely out of touch but I've become more conscious of my age in relation to the rest of the potential hires.   

Specifically - interview attire?  In this instance I'm not sure if suit and tie (or a tie at all) is going to throw a flag at a company where most of the employees are wearing sandals and flip flops to work each day and go to lunch at the beach a couple of miles away.  I don't want to show a lack of respect with my attire, but I'm trying to figure how to strike a balance between professional and appearing as a "good fit" for these types of companies.  Same principle goes for resume format and overall content really.  I don't want to come off as a poser basically.

Any input or experiences from you guys appreciated.           

What department are you interviewing with and who's making the hiring decision?  For myself (as an engineer) I instinctively distrust anyone in a suit and tie because I associate that with somebody who's trying to put one over on me.  I try to put that aside during an interview and focus on the content but I'd be lying if I said that all else being equal I wouldn't tend to be more favorably disposed toward a more casually dressed candidate.  I'd tend to say "business casual" conveys that you aren't a slob (it's certainly better dressed than I'd be while interviewing you) without putting on airs.

If you're interviewing with marketing, though, it's pretty much the exact opposite and they probably won't even consider you if you aren't dressed like a snake oil salesman.   :awesome_for_real:

Ah yeah should have mentioned - this is mid-level client services / product support / account management type stuff.  Customer facing, but over phone or email.

Customer-facing put on your best clothes as you're representing the company. If they don't want groomed folks representing them, fine, but they'd better have a damn fine product.  I'm also an old fart, however.

For account management you're more likely to be working with suits (and trying to razzle-dazzle them more than actually solving technical problems), so yeah, dress up a little more.

FWIW I've done a lot of in person customer facing stuff and never in a suit -- stuff like staffing booths at trade shows, giving talks at conferences, etc.  Clean/presentable casual (i.e. no holes or stains in your jeans and/or tshirt) or business casual tends to be the norm.  Might be a west coast thing.  But again, this is as an engineer who's generally talking to other engineers.

I'm younger than you by 10ish years but I've worn a suit to all my interviews despite having waist length hair & guitar playing fingernails.  I'm solely in engineering and never facing customers, plus most of the people I work with are never dressed nicely as I work with transformer oil regularly & wearing nice clothes to get ruined is dumb.  That said, if I interview someone not dressed in a suit or at least extremely nicely, I'd be reluctant to consider them unless their resume was completely stellar & they interviewed amazingly well.  There's just a certain "respect for the job" you're interviewing for that comes with putting your best foot forward including a decent suit.  Will some places refuse to hire you for wearing a nice suit to a job interview?  Sure.  But if they base their decision solely on "not wearing sandals to a job interview" decision, I'd question whether I'd want to work there anyways.  If they are a serious company they'll determine whether or not you'll fit in based on your skills & interview tactics.

If the interviewer says "feel free to ditch the tie/coat" during the interview as everyone is in sandals & shorts, take the hint ;-)

Times are changing but I don't think we're just there yet where you want to show up to a job interview not looking your best.  Doesn't mean crew cut & IBM suit but definitely a bit more than business casual.  Once you get the job you'll never have to look that good again most likely.

I've always worn a suit and tie to interviews as well, even when interviewing at places that didn't dress that way. Better to be overdressed than under.

My general recommendation is dress for the interview a step above what you expect normally wear to that job. E.g. if the job's attire is "business casual" then I would wear a jacket along with some nice pants and shirt but most likely no tie.

However, figuring out the dress code for the position you are interviewing for may be a bit tricky without actually visiting the place before hand. Generally, though, for your kind of position, if customers regularly visit the office and/or the company's customers pay a lot of money for support your position will probably be expected to dress nicer.

If you don't want to dress up, tell them you are coming straight from your current job so they'll understand you showing up with business casual.  I turned down the job though, never seen such rude/unprofessional management.

Just ask what the dress code is.

Never work at a software company in a tech-related position if you can't wear flip-flops to the interview. Any company that gives a shit about dress code isn't worth working at.

(i checked my privilege at the door with my coat and whiteness)

If I had worn something fancy or business-like for most of my interviews, not that I had many, I probably wouldn't have got the job.  Most of my work mates and clients had more metal than skin.  I had hate to dress up anyway.  If I had to dress up for work every day, I'd fall over and cry real tears.  My clothes are mostly strange and, like me, not fit for the corporate world.  I would take a part time job at an ice cream shop, though, and wear an apron.  It's my dream job.

Oh please. You might be able to wear flipflops after you get the job, but you sure as hell shouldn't be interviewing in them. It's called being respectful and showing that you are a serious candidate.

I've been spoiled by video games, where the dress code is usually limited to "Must dress sufficiently as to not be arrested for indecent exposure during business hours." As I recall from before that, generally how uptight the dress code for tech workers is depends on how small a part of that company's business it is, and the standards for the business in general. If it's purely a software company, it's rare for the dress code to go beyond 'appropriate casual dress' for the area (from jeans and polo/open collar in the northeast to flip-flops and cargo shorts with t-shirts in the Southwest). Generally, tech workers inside of larger companies can go a notch or two more towards casual than general employees (so programmers and IT nerds at a bank wear slacks and dress shirts without ties, when everyone who isn't in a full suit is wearing a tie).

As a general rule for interviewing blind, khakis and an open-collar dress shirt with black walking shoes generally won't be so far in either direction as to hurt you regardless of what the dress standard for that shop is.

--Dave

Break barriers. Hang in there. Cat.gif

Every interview I've been to where I got the job, I've been wearing flipflops. Every interview I didn't, I was dressed the part of "stodgy white butthead."

You should watch the latest episode of Silicon Valley.

I do like that show.  If I wasn't stuck here, I'd go just for the spectacle.  I love a good spectacle.

Regarding the flip-flops, I'm glad that's working out for you but I really can't pull that off in the arena I'm working in.  I'm wearing a suit tomorrow to interview at Equifax; showing up in flip-flops would be job-slot suicide.  I even wore a button-up and coat to interview at Fiserv, where despite being a financial institution, everyone wore street clothes and one dude was wearing a Harley Davidson tee shirt.  I didn't get that one... is it the shoes?  BOOM SHAKA LAKA

You have to know your audience.  SV tech companies... jeans and a (clean) t-shirt will likely be sufficient.  I've always worn closed shoes to interviews, but I wouldn't blink if someone I was interviewing was wearing sandals... flip-flops are a bit out there but still would have zero impact on my opinion of the candidate.  I find that most people do tend to dress a step above the expected day-to-day, which usually means something at the edge of business casual.  The only people I have every seen in suits are kids clearly fresh out of school (and often nervous as hell), but that doesn't count against you either, so no worries.

Financial or non-primarily-sw-shop, yeah, people probably expect folks to be in somewhat less casual wear.  East cost software shops, I gather, tend towards somewhat more formal than West coast ones.

Certainly if you're not sure there's zero harm in asking the recruiter or interview coordinator -- they're spending time (and maybe money) bringing you on-site, and their goal is to hire someone, so they have no incentive to needlessly make it harder for you to get the job due to some pointless non-technical issue like dress code.

I guess its worth noting I've only applied to real jobs in Phoenix and Austin.  :grin:

Maybe that's why Fiserv sucks so much.. :why_so_serious:

I'd immediately discount someone in flip-flops, but that's because I hate them.  Otherwise, if you're showered and clean looking with closed-toe shoes, I'd only consider your qualifications and not care what you're wearing.

I went to my job interview at my current job (the data center for a banking house) with suit and tie. The second person I saw wore a Cannibal Corpse T-Shirt and black shorts. Turns out that was the department head of the Infrastructure department. Last time I wore a tie at work except when dealing with outsiders.

Still got the job, so I presume being overdressed potentially hurts less than being underdressed. People assume you become more casual when you settle in, people seldom assume you up your game once you get the job if your first impression is that of a hobo.  :why_so_serious:

You guys over think everything. Simple collared polo and dockers, 'sensible' shoes. If they don't hire you based on your attire when you wear something utterly innocuous and inoffensive, then they are either pretentious as fuck or too stuffy for words and you should bolt.

But what about lifeguards!?!?   :why_so_serious:

It's pretty much this. We tend to frown on suits and ties, but sandals would be a bit too loose. We'd even be okay with dark jeans, too.

When we were acquired by our parent company from NY, the directors came in suits and our president told them to at least take off the ties. Otherwise they would seem to dominate and make the transition weird. Apparently, one of them threw a fit about not wearing a tie because it was 'unprofessional', but was told by the new COO to lose it or go home.

guys, I'm half-fucking with you

Dress how the oldest executive at any given company would expect an interviewee to dress. There's no hard rule. I just happen to wear flip-flops to the vast majority of tech interviews because I have the confidence of 10,000 lesser men - all of whom work at tech companies.

Show up to an interview in a suit. If it goes casual, take of the jacket.

There.

If you do want to wear a tie but you don't have any that are hipster enough there's a company now that solves that problem: http://www.skinnyfatties.com/

Ehhh, at my software company, experience was basically the same as Samwise.  Anybody who showed up to the interviews in a full suit set off a lot of warning bells to me and others I worked with.  Probably not fair, but the bias against them was there none the less.

I always forget yall work in a weird ass industry.

Sorry, but given the landscape of the future, accounting is the weird ass industry now.

K

I wore business casual to a skype interview (2nd phase of the interview process, first was a phone call, third would be in person interview) and the recruiter gave me feedback after I wasn't called back that I "wasn't dressed for an interview". It was an account manager type position.

I'm happy that I did, fuck working for a company like that anyway.

For any interview you do, wear a suit even if no one in the company ever wears them.

If it's the Midwest/ South, wear a goddamn tie you fucking hippies.

 :awesome_for_real:

Yeah, if he hadn't said the job was in California I wouldn't have even said anything.  I'm well aware of how weird the rest of the country is about what configuration of textiles is draped over you.

Heh, that's not why.

Yeah, this. The South is very much head up the ass, 20 years behind for job interviews. Even if you don't expect to be wearing a suit and tie, interviewing in the South requires a tie because most of the people in charge down here think suit = professional, and not suit = not professional. It's fuckstupid.

Ties are stupid.  And dangerous.  If you, by chance, run into a serial killer on the way to your interview, you've pretty much brought along the murder weapon.  People think!

I've considered wearing my seersucker trousers.  I don't have the full suit, however I've been to places in Georgia where that is considered more than acceptable.

Personally, I think if you can't be assed to dress up for a couple hours for one day, you probably can't be assed to do quite a number of other, more distasteful things.  Nevermind the respect and professionalism bits.  Of course, all of this is in deference to my primary tenet: If you want to play ball, you have to wear the uniform.

Along the lines of dressing up, you show quite a lot of professionalism (effort) by bringing a list of questions with you.  You should already be taking notes, and this is a natural extension of that.  This is where you show you are serious by asking questions like "Why is this position open?" and "What are your immediate expectations from someone entering this role?"

Using this in a recent interview, I made a note that they were looking at doing a lot of work with configuring a new Chef deployment.  When I got home, I looked up that stuff and I'm glad I did; I'm going to see about deploying it on a EC2 to fiddle with.  I might even send some suggestions to the hiring director so as to demonstrate my ability to learn new tech, as well as build goodwill.

Just got booked for my interviews for the new Manager position in my company. Monday, four meetings, stretching from 9:00 to 12:30. Then I have a Product meeting till 2:00.

I haven't had a job interview in 15 years, since I've been here that long.

Region really does matter. I went to a graduate school graduation ceremony in Oregon and not a single solitary person, from the dean of the college on down, wore a jacket, never mind a tie. I wore a tie out of respect and I felt a bit silly, but no one noticed anyway.

That's a good point. In my recent round of interviews, I always brought a list of questions and took notes during the interview. Forgot to mention that.

As an interviewer I always appreciate interviewees who have questions for me, because I kind of hate interviewing people and having the other person ask some questions gives me a break.

Asking no questions or shitty questions is a great way to not get a second interview.

Believe me, I'm trying.

I've been part of the interview process a few times in the past.

The main thing that I always looked out for was if a candidate knew what they were talking about. Bullshit is so, so easy to spot, especially when you're interviewing for a technical post of any kind. I was interviewing for molecular biology research positions, and there were few candidates who both knew a reasonable amount about the field they were supposed to be skilled in *and* were able to admit when they didn't know something. Nobody can know everything in that kind of field. Not bullshitting when you don't know something is a major plus point.

Also, make sure you don't smell. Like, wear clean clothes, have a shower in the morning and use deodorant. Never thought that'd be a problem when interviewing. How wrong I was.

That's really sad. I have my interview on Monday (an internal promotion, so they all know me anyways) and I'm going to go buy a new shirt and tie this weekend, just because I want to put the best impression forward.

I never interview in a full suit. However, I live in South Florida, and anyone wearing a full suit here gets looked at like they are crazy. I normally go with dress shirt, tie, nice slacks, and dress shoes. Generally lighter colors and materials because it's fucking hot here.

Does your shirt have flowers on it?

If jobs were based on cleanliness, I could be King of America.  Unfortunately, they seem to want skills.  Bleh.

Listen, strange women bathing in ponds is no basis for a system of government!

I totally disagree with this assessment.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sof/4982493312.html

Decorum on the part of the company is more important to me than what I or the interviewers wear. This reads like someone who just learned how to curse and thinks they're "funny."

But then, they play Werewolf. Which is just socially acceptable larping trash.

I work on the east coast for a Silicon Valley software company... my work is customer facing and often CxO level.  No one wears suits anymore.

The standard uniform is: Pressed Slacks, Matching open collared long-sleeve shirt (any matching color or pattern), Blazer/Sport Coat (matching).  I'd only avoid Tan slacks, white shirt and Blue blazer, as that is the universal uniform for boys.

The key is to look sharp, clean and put together - matching is important.  Pressed wool slacks (or warmer weather equivalent) and Pressed shirt... not dockers and tumble-dry.

If you get there and its more casual, the coat is easily slung over the shoulder and/or hung on the back of the chair.  If more formal the coat is on, collar is open, everyone is happy.

That's the right-down the middle play.  If you want to gamble on flip-flops, t-shirts, hemp belts or just a goat-skin thong you'd better know your audience or be so freakin' awesome that goat thongs will become a "thing" where you work after you are hired.

So you are saying they care about you wearing "higher end" shirts and slacks, yet no one wears a tie. How odd.

I did go out and buy a nice new shirt and tie for my interview. I knew the shirt was nice because there were at least ten push pins holding it together in its neatly folded bundle.  :awesome_for_real:

Then you put it on and found that eleventh pin, right?  :grin:

Well, "care" is an existential question... I'm not sure that they care about the actual cost, just that you are wearing clothes appropriate to the occasion and not your Saturday man-cave outfit.  I'm just passing along what the standard is for the typical hiring manager at an east coast IT shop would be.  Naturally there a lots of good reasons to dress differently than the "standard" (known corporate culture, what looks good on your body-type, your cultural background, your recruiter told you to wear xyz)... but if you can't give yourself those reasons, then don't.  I'd say that your clothes won't get you the job, but they might prevent you from getting the job.

The latest trend I've noticed for executive personal expression are wild socks.  Hot Pink, Lime Green, garish patterns, etc.  But always with the basic uniform of Pressed Slacks and Shirt.

I've seen the sock thing too. Especially on banking types.

That's just because they are repressed.

A pop of color in the socks was stolen from the gays and hipsters. Well, gay hipsters.

It's pretty standard in Austin. It's basically the universal symbol of "tryhard jackass."

I'll not have you slander my socks.  I was complimented by a pair of ladies on my colorful socks that happened to match my shirt.  If you're not going to wear a tie or a pocket square (and you probably should not), then it's fine to color up your ankles.  Depends on where you are, though.  When interviewing with someone who has been in the same company for 16 years, I chose to wear black socks and a suit+tie.  These guys were mostly scientists.

Did you wear garters for the socks?

--Dave (that reference is probably too much older than I am for anyone here to get it without googling)

We used reverse suspenders for our shirts when wearing dress blues in the Air Force. Those connected to your socks. Not sure if they still do, but it was standard issue 7-8 years ago. (damn I'm old)

Connecting my shirt to my socks?  Genius!

They had that in the Air Force.  Shirt stayed tight and looked great.

I mentioned this to my wife and she stated that I'd find and use anything which made me unattractive.  I don't understand women.

You own an orange suit.    :uhrr:

I wore it and don't regret a thing.  It was incredibly awesome.  You people, how do you live in your tiny grey worlds?

Apparently the detractor is elastic.  Any elastic removes sexy points.

She's not suppose to *see* them. Just the results.

Hey, you're posting to the wrong person here. :awesome_for_real:

She probably assumes you'd wear them on the outside.

For the most part: Interviews don't really get you in the door these days.  If you're relying upon an interview to get you in the door, you're going about it wrong.  Most of the interviews that happen today are perfunctory - they've already decided who they're hiring and they're just interviewing to meet quotas.  If you're not the one they've already decided to hire, you might make a good impression and they might think of you down the road the next time they're hiring... but that isn't what you want.  You want the people that are hiring to have decided to hire you before they meet with anyone else. 

Find the people that will be in or near the hiring process at the places you want to work and find ways to get to know some of them outside of work.  Professional organizations sometimes help, but you can make these contacts entirely outside the job world.  The best contact I ever made was at a gaming store.  I've put people's names forward after meeting them gaming, at a bar, and at continuing education events. 

Focus on being the person they want to have on their team.  There are usually a lot of people that can do the type of job you said you want - make sure you're the guy they want doing it in the cube next to them.  People focus too much on proving their qualifications and experience, but don't spend enough time showing that you can be part of the team.  Showing leadership potential is wonderful, but there are not many jobs where you'll get hired if they don't think you'll be a follower too ... and the places that hire people that don't fit in are not places you want to work. 

Finally, don't stop looking for your job once you find it.  Keep meeting people in the industry.  Keep building that network.  When you relocate, the first offer you get is often a necessity to take.  However, it isn't usually the best you can do.  If you spend the first 18 months building a network inside and outside the company, you can start to crack open doors and have people think of you when a better opportunity opens up.

Hmm my experience has not been what you describe above. Usually I send my resumes in later (3-4 weeks after job posting) and they interview me because all the other resumes they've gotten are mostly crap. The interview then locks in the deal. I've only been passed by on 1 job that I interviewed for (not counting another where they decided not to hire anyone and closed the position).

Edit to add: Your experience sounds like department changes/lateral moves within the same company vs other companies that have no idea who you are.

Yes jgsugden is full of shit. Ignore him.

The people I know who've had that attitude typically interview terribly, oversell their skills, or are nutters.

Not that contacts don't matter as they've gotten me my last 6 interviews. However, nothing was decided until I was in that room and sold myself to the guys across the table. I wasn't a fit for one studio at the current place, but they recommended me to another. This wouldn't have happened if I went in assuming I had the job because of my contacts and decided I didn't have to prove anything.

Nobody in my primary field cares if you're a fit on a team. They care if you know how to build a goddamn hotel, restaurant or tenant finish without getting the firm sued.  :awesome_for_real:

I'm an AVP at a large bank. I work in California and hold a position that sits between the front office, legal, compliance and operations. I've hired about 10 people in the last year.  Feel free to discard my advice.

That's nice. :roll:

Everyone is a VP at a bank. That aside, I would bet the folks you hired are mostly people who already worked at the bank, right?

I have absolutely no xp whatsoever in interviews.  Most of the jobs I've had involved wandering in some interesting looking place and asking if I can have a job.  In fact, there a new tattoo/piercing shop opening not far from here.  I'll be wandering in there at some point.  This is obviously not good advice for the sorts of jobs you guys want.  I have to admit that when I started working in artist management it was a definite plus having xp with Unix.  I got my first computer in 1977.  I had no choice but to learn it.  But, bragging a little, they didn't know that until after they hire me.  Personally, I think it was the T.S.O.L. t-shirt and the Pantera jean jacket I won from some radio station.  But all that is ancient history.  These days you have to wear a tie and have a smart phone.

In my experience both looking recently and in participating in interviewing contractors, I don't know anyone in their right mind who would continue interviews if they already decided on their candidate.  Of course, scheduled interviews aren't necessarily cancelled but the position is closed ASAP so that everyone can get back to doing something else.  No one likes the interview process.

I'm able to position myself as a team player with leadership skills.  People seem to like that.

My last three interview experiences.

1.  Interview in a town I hate and then see the shitpile of a building.  Go in anyway because I committed and it would be a good interview experience.  Fastest interview I've ever done.  She must have sensed my dismay at the place or she didn't want me either.
Lesson Learned:  Research the place, make sure it's a town and workplace you want to be at.

2.  Interview with a competitor (I have no non-compete).  Great location, new, state of the art building.  But they seemed suspicious and on edge, I think they thought I was a spy or something. Also, not my best interview, really liked the place and got nervous and had a couple of bad answers. I didn't get the job.
Lesson Learned:  Get your shit together and bring your A-game to every interview.  Set the interviewer at ease.

3.  Interview with a place two co-workers used to work at.  Ok location. But no one smiled there, everyone seemed tense, like rubber bands stretched too far. They were wanting me to work six days and (68hrs a week) 'for now'.  The manager and I did hit it off, and he all but offered the job right there, even suggesting nearby apartments where he lived to move to.  But another manager came in and berated him while I was still there interviewing.  Case closed. 
Lesson Learned:  Be willing to be flexible, but be willing to walk.  OK I'll work 68 hours 'for now' but a place that, quite frankly, seemed loaded with hostility?  I'm already taking a 'pay cut' per hour on my salary.

LOL never take a job that says you'll be working more "for now." Never take a job that promises a change in your status with no written guarantees. That's the hallmark of a company that is desperate and willing to take on anybody to bail out a bad situation.

Yes, #3 was desperate to find suckers to work there.

Research the company and I'd really suggest picking places based on if the company is good or crap.  Use Glassdoor, LinkedIn, or other contacts who know.

I've messed up interviews before, but the main way to avoid that is to be prepared.  You can anticipate at least some questions, so go ahead and write out a response and have it ready.  Don't read it during the interview, obviously, but you want to be able to pop off a story about how awesome you are at what they are asking about, and you want to be able to tell that story confidently and succinctly.

Another important thing is to ask questions yourself.  These should be written down in advance so you don't forget to ask something important, like one of my favorites: "Why is this position open?"  I think I listed some earlier in this thread, or maybe the job thread.

Some of it is out of your control as an interviewee, but any chance you can get to turn the interview into a back-and-forth discussion will usually work in your favor. I know there's exceptions to the rule, but for the most part it leaves a much better impression.

The trick to success then is not to use your rehearsed answers to answer expected questions, but try to relate your accomplishments to the conversation. It's harder, but has worked pretty well for me in the past.

This does not work well on tech screens, of course.

I like the question, but I'd probably phrase it like, "How did this opportunity open up?" The first option might seem more a skeptical interrogation phrasing.

Anyone able to confirm if this book is any good? 

Cracking the Coding Interview (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/098478280X)

Everyone important at my previous bank was a director. At this one, everyone (not necessarily important) is a VP.

It is used for tech screens in a few offices in Seattle, can confirm.

Is it good? Well it wasn't really a fun read, but our CTO straight up told me to buy a copy and study it because that's what he uses for interviews. He likes to ask algorithm questions, and he likes to put twists on the questions in the book to throw people off.

Right, you'll need to adjust for the mood of the conversation or how you want to present yourself.  I've been working on "pleasant guy who loves his work and expects excellence from his team" and I've had success with phrasing that question exactly as written.  If they don't like me asking this, then I'm already putting red marks on the position notes.