f13.net

This place has just the right blend of nerd, tech and strong opinion that I think it's worth asking here...

I'm looking to get an espresso machine for home. I have read the reviews, looked at the youtube videos, and am frankly bewildered.

I'm getting the impression that to get something worth having, I'm looking at at least a couple of hundred bucks for the machine, and another couple of hundred for a fancy grinder.

The lead contenders for now are the Gaggia Evolution paired with the Gaggia MDF grinder. These tip in at just about $400, and seem to be the lowest end of the serious machines.

So have at it, if any of you are into home coffee brewing, would love to hear your opinions.

Add my vote for the MDF. I've had one for years and it still works perfectly. Got it set to 2, which produces some very fine dust my machine can just barely handle.

I had to saw off that thing at the bottom though because mine wouldn't fit in there otherwise. (Phrasing!)

I had a cheaper (non-serious) one of these years ago and I think I wasn't serious enough for it because I ended up not using it at some point.  It made fine coffee.  I don't remember the brand but I know it didn't cost me $400.  So I suppose what I am thinking I might learn is what would one get from one of these $400 jobbers that you can't get from a cheaper one?

Also bean grinders, I had a shitty one which may have been my downfall.

I use a Breville 800ESXL, which I picked up about nine months ago.  It's a wonderful, solid machine, and apart from a La Pavoni PC-16, I can't think of anything I'd rather replace it with.

I was pretty fortunate while buying mine.  They sell for a little over $300 new on Amazon, but I was lucky enough to pick mine up barely used for $10 from an estate sale that didn't know what they were selling.  It replaced a De'Longhi that I had for two or so years, and the difference is remarkable.

For grinding I've used a Breville Smart Grind for a few years.  I picked it mostly out of brand loyalty because my wife liked her Breville Tea Maker, and I've been very happy with it.  It seems like I'm developing a theme with my appliances.

Odd this thread should appear :  work bought an Nespresso machine today.  God it's lovely.

Yegolev, the high-end espresso people pay literally thousands of dollars for their equipment. Does it make a difference that the rest of us can taste? Who knows. I think they're in the same class as people who will pay $1k for a graphics card. But yeah, there's definitely a huge difference from the sub-$100 machine to the $400 setup that anyone who is remotely serious about coffee will be able to taste.

Incidentally, just to prove that espresso fanaticism is its own world, you can check out the genre of youtube vids devoted to creamy espresso coffee oozing its way out of a filter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_9xHCh-qeI

Unless you're really snobby you don't need Crema

Get a Bialetti roughly around 3 ounces. (6 Oz if you make two cups. A shot is 1.5 so a 3 oz Moka Pot does a standard double espresso). Don't pay a lot for this the expensive ones aren't worth it.

Like so: http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/bialetti-moka-express-stovetop-espresso-coffee-maker

Buy a stovetop mil frother (either a proper steam generator or just a little pot with matching mesh attachment you can froth with (http://www.espressozone.com/frieling-stainless-steel-milk-frother-18-oz?gclid=CM6s1KqY-r0CFQmDfgodGRMAJA), steam generators are more expensive, the pot should not be so expensive as that link though)

Just about any Conical Burr Grinder which has varying grind sizes will do. This is what  I have (http://www.amazon.com/Breville-BCG450XL-Conical-Burr-Grinder/dp/B000MDHH0Q) but i got mine cheaper than that.

The grinder will be, by far the most expensive part of your setup if you're going for maximum quality/minimum price. Moka pots are just about as good as proper steam pulls so long as you make sure to tamp it down good (and don't care about crema)

edit: Alternately you can foam milk in your microwave with a mason jar/glass cup

http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-milk-foam-without-100716

Just get a Bosch Tassimo (from BBB) and call it a day; can make any cafe drink with it.  The money-saved buys you a lot of T-discs.  I got mine (after all the coupons and sales) for like $100.  And yes, it's a totally different coffee experience then the normal brewer.  If you dont like spending the extra on t-discs w/milk, then you can buy your own milk frother for like $79.

I know this is probably the exact opposite of what you are looking for, but I got a Keurig for my birthday and am now hooked on these.  They're better than any I've had at a good coffee shop.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Gevalia-Caramel-Macchiato-Espresso-Coffee-Cups-Froth-Packets-9-count/32636485

I have a "bean to cup" machine which includes its own automatic grinder. You stick beans in the top (you can put a week's worth in at one go), add water and then press the espresso button for espresso or the coffee button for a standard coffee. Wait 20 seconds while the machine makes grinding noises and then your coffee comes out.

There are settings to mess with if you want to, mainly to do with how fine the coffee beans are ground (a finer grind means stronger coffee apparently). And obviously you have the option of trying out different coffee beans.

Higher end versions will also include a container you can put milk in, allowing you to make cappuccinos or other drinks at the press of a button.

The downside is that these are more expensive than machines which use pods, although Nespressos (which I think are generally considered to be the best pod machines) get pretty expensive too at the top end.

Pod machines might also have a wide range of drinks to choose from, depending on which brand you get. Nespresso is probably top of the range for pods, and then you have Tassimo or Dolce Gusto, which would be joint second. I used to have a Dolce Gusto machine and the coffee was nice, although it wasn't always hot enough.

You can also get A Modo Mio pod machines, which are really specialist espresso machines so I guess they might suit you. I used to have one of these and the espresso was very good but to make a standard coffee you had to make an espresso (or a double) and then add hot water and it's easy to get the strength wrong.

I would include links but every time I try to look at a US site it automatically directs me to the UK one, which is probably no good to you.

For what it's worth, I have this: http://www.johnlewis.com/saeco-hd8763-18-minuto-bean-to-cup-coffee-machine/p795350 which is fantastic, although I can't compare it to other bean to cup machines as it's the first one I've owned.

That depends on your level of coffee fanaticism. We're heavy serious coffee drinkers, but we buy consumer grade beans (Stop & Shop's organic house brand) and we tend to brew a stronger more robust and less sharp brew than the coffee snobs prefer. We're perfectly happy without "don't buy one of these!!" Target cheapie steam pressure espresso machine and we use the same grinder as our regular coffee.

With all this food snob stuff (and I am one), there's a level where you get past the crap and into good stuff and then there's another level where you live in an ethereal world where you won't touch anything that doesn't need to be mail ordered from someone who rides their llama to town once a week. I think coffee sites are mostly dominated by the latter and have a real problem with the perfect being the enemy of the good.

I had a decent quality $300 machine I won as a spiff at work. Made very good espresso, though not coffee shop level quality. Probably mainly due to using a really cheap grinder. If I got the grid just right, it actually made a nice creamy espresso. Longer I had the machine, the lazier I got with it though. Went from using a chilled steel milk frother to just frothing it in my mug, to not bothering with milk at all pretty quickly. I also found that every home machine I ever used didn't make enough espresso per "pull" to make a reasonable sized drink. Kind of a pain having to run the thing through twice just to make a decent sized latte.

My machine broke down after about three years and I just never bothered fixing it. Went on a french press kick for a while, but I found I only really liked that when making cafe au lait.

Now I use a Keurig with Starbucks Pike. It takes under a minute to make a good cup of coffee, and I'm happy.

The biggest problem Tassimo has is their t-disc milk drinks are like $10 for 8.  It's cheaper then the cafe yes (and you'd need 100+ cups to make up the difference in cost of a separate frother), but damn.  A lot of people I know go through that much coffee in 2 days.  So I'd say if you're a high volume drinker (vs. the occasional 'treat') then definitely go for one of those bean-to-cup dealies w/built in frother.  Damn, I wish I had the money for one of those.

I am a pretty big coffee nerd.

The biggest taste difference you get in coffee comes from the grinder and the beans. Better to buy high quality beans (with the flavor profile you like, be it buttery, fruity, or bitter) than have anything else fancy. From there, not cooking the beans a second time as you grind(ideally right before you make the coffee) to the right coarseness is the second largest effect on flavor(so a conical burr grinder)

The difference in flavor between machines is pretty minimal with most differences being texture. A Moka Pot will not do crema since the pressure pushes the water up through the beans as steam instead of down through the beans though a press (the air leaves the steam as it condenses, but when you press the air enters the coffee at the bottom of the press) but the flavor will be mainly the same. Lack of crema means your foam won't mix as well and so its harder to get nice brown/white foam on top. It also means your coffee will be slightly less sweet because the air in the crema, like the air in foamed milk, will bring a bit of the flavor out and dilute the stronger flavors. Additionally regulating the pull length is based on how high you have the heat on your stove(this doesn't change the temperature of the water as it moves through but it does change the rate) so you cannot as effectively do long pulls

This is why I recommend the moka pot for people just starting. You can get a more expensive machine which will do proper crema later if you want to upgrade and the moka pot won't break the bank. Additionally they're easy to clean, store, use, and will give you a better understanding of the changes you can make to make your coffee taste different. You shouldn't ever get a steam espresso maker besides a moka pot. Only go better if its lever or pump operated(which are more to much more expensive)

I adore coffee.  The first thing I do when there's a storm coming is grind coffee beans.  My sister has a manual grinder for emergencies, too.  We have an old Italian cooker top drip coffee maker (it's at least 50 yeas old) and a gas stove, too.  I refuse to be without my coffee.  I used to make espresso with one of those old cooker top makers (also belonged to my grandmother).  It was really, really strong and you were supposed to drink it in demitasse cups but I'd use a big old mug.  I stopped doing that because afterwards I'd run around like an insane person doing all sorts of stuff but nothing would actually get done.  I've thought often about buying one of the one cup pod thingies but I'm just not sure.  The pods seem pricey, too.   

As an italian, coffee is my daily drug: between a creamy espresso in a bar and a homemade Moka at home, I'll always prefer the latter, though: with a moka (traditional metallic Bialetti is the best, IMO), you exploit 100% of the energy coffee can give you (but don't overdo it if you have heart/pressure problems), while also having a full and good taste in the mouth if the blend is good, of course.

My usual daily dose is 1 Cappuccino (the REAL italian one :D) + 2 moka coffee throughout the day.

While it doesn't make a 'real' espresso, I find that my Aeropress (http://www.amazon.com/Aeropress-Coffee-and-Espresso-Maker/dp/B0047BIWSK/) gets close enough (particularly for making a pretty tasty facsimile of a Long Black) for day to day use, especially when paired with one of the metal disc filters (http://www.amazon.com/Able-Brewing-DISK-AeroPress-Espresso/dp/B00E58P7ME) made for them.  No, it's not generating 9 bars and you only get a faint whiff of a crema, but it's only $25 (+$12 or so for the disc filter) and when paired with good temperature control of the water and a decent burr grinder, it's good enough for something that takes me 4 minutes to make (including cleanup).  In my experience, it's better (likely due to being more foolproof) than the stovetop brewers and faster to boot if you use the microwave to heat the water.

I LOVE my Aeropress.  But it's no espresso.

I agree - it's 'good enough' for 6AM and headed to work in the morning, though.  :)

Once we bought an Aeropress, we pitched our coffee maker and Nespresso.  Sure, it takes an extra step or two.  It's worth it though for coffee.

Invert it if you don't yet.

Yeah! I was pretty sure this would get a good conversation.

I’ve used Tassimo/Keurig (but never Nespresso.) They’re great for what they do, but part of the fun for me is trying out different coffees from small artisinal shops. And the cost is prohibitive. I’d easily be spending $100/month on the little coffee pods.

I just pulled the trigger on a Gaggia Evolution, refurbished, for $139. I’m pretty happy - it’s rated pretty decently, and is not so expensive that I will mind that much if it turns out to be a mistake.

Goumindong, you’re awesome, thanks for all the ideas.

Numtimi, I laughed. I’ve been obsessively reading the various coffee nerd forums, and you’ve got it right. My god, there are modding guides for practically every piece of equipment out there. I think there’s serious “sharp knees” syndrome as well around what I’m sure is perfectly good equipment for normal mortals.

I know.  Those pods just seem too expensive for what they give you and the sort of coffee you can get.  I love little cafes and bistros that roast their own.  I've found some awesome coffee from those sorts of places.  Speaking about artisinal shops, there is a place named Taste Artisinal Market not too far from here.  They have this marinated Asiago spread that is incredible.  I had some on a baguette with prosciutto last year.  I have to go there today, I think, because that's dinner.

And figs. 

For a while I used a Keurig and had a reusable K-cup for it.  You could grind coffee and load it with whatever you wanted as many times as you wanted.  I ended up spending less money on coffee by using it over a drip coffee maker because it was really efficient and you only made one cup at a time so there was less waste.  As good as my Keurig was though, my espresso machines have both been better by a mile.

That's actually really interesting - it might be a good solution for work. I'd been thinking of a Tassimo for work because I throw out an awfully lot of half-full pots of coffee and am annoyed by the waste.

I saw those when I was looking around after reading this thread.  Some of them have a permanent filter but you can get ones with little paper filters, too.  I'd go with paper.  Although I like very strong coffee, I don't like the sediment.  Another thing I find annoying is that some coffee makers just don't make the coffee hot enough.  I like my coffee McDonald's hot.   

If you're looking for the best drip coffee brewed at the highest possible temperature i would suggest one of these

http://www.technivorm.com/products/

They superheat the water a bit at a time and so it makes a full pot super fast (ours does 15 cups in 6 minutes) at condensing temperatures.

The only other way to ensure a proper temperature is to use a steam based coffee maker like a percolator or Moka pot. Moka pots won't have a proper long extraction time like drip ought to and percolators are prone to re-extraction so its better to use something like the above machines

You'd be better off with a Keurig Mini and a reusable K-cup, I think.  You can get both together for under $100, which is about what a Tassimo goes for, and you can brew whatever you want instead of using their pods.  The reusable K-Cups are like $8.

Downside of the Keurig is they brew weak-ass coffee in my mind.

So in case anyone cares...

I finally bought a Gaggia Evolution espresso machine. This is the very low end of the good machines. I got it refurb, at $139, which I was very happy about. I did not buy a fancy $300 grinder, as recommended by all the coffee fanatic websites. I'm using Illy pre-ground coffee.

The net result - I am brewing coffee that is far superior to pretty much every restaurant and coffee shop I visit. So for me, going higher end was not necessary, although I may still do so at some point.

A large part of the "far superior" thing is that I'm making coffee how I personally like it. Usually I find cappuccinos too foamy, latttes too weak and espressos too bitter when I buy them out.

Ant that's that.  :awesome_for_real:

Illy was a good choice (I use the Moka version because, like I said before, I vastly prefer Moka at home): it's considered among the best brands here in Italy too (and it's a bit more expensive compared to others).

Another one I suggest is Caffè Vergnano:

http://www.caffevergnano.com/eng/prodotti/casa.php

I usually go with the Antica Bottega.

Hello ! everyone thanks for this helpful information.

Have anyone used Gaggia espresso ? I am going to buy that for my home use .

need your  suggestions. 

We have a Gaggia Brera and we love it. My inlaws got it for us for xmas. They have had theirs for a year without issue and ours is working out fantastically. Seriously, if you like a good European style espresso shot, this is the thing. I know, technically starbucks' shots are meant to be just like the European ones, but just...no, somehow no. This machine is about as perfect as it gets, and is as good as any coffee I have had in Europe (with one exception being a shot I had at a cafe outside the Vatican which was just off the charts).

He's a spambot Engels.

He even bothered with a profile picture and everything? These bots are such hard workers these days, the poor dears.

Reading all this makes me pretty relieved I really, really prefer black drip coffee to pretty much any other kind. All I need is a decent burr grinder and a filter. Although it means getting really good, fresh beans becomes super important because there isn't much else apart from that and timing. Shit lot easier than all the crazy high end pressure altering espresso artistry though.

We switched recently to doing our coffee as French press using our big REI camping French press, after I decided our Cuisinart drip brew needed to be shot and buried. I think it's generally been much better coffee. I thought about a Technivorm but it just seemed too expensive for the results.

Three of us at the office shared a French Press when we finally got sick of the free "burn-roasted" coffee. While I agree the coffee was far superior, ultimately the damn thing proved to be too much of a pain in the ass to clean. We took a Keurig from the Hospitality group and buy boxes of Tim Horton's cups from Sams now.

That couldn't be further from espresso though.

We have a Nespresso machine in the office that's...ok? It's the Inissia, the cheaper one. It has a decent crema when it's done, the packaged stuff is fairly good. But it doesn't really wow me.

There's a Keurig over at another office where I go for meetings some days and I think that coffee kind of blows.

I knew my brother had finally full whitebread when he allowed his good lady wife to install a Keurig and all its accoutrements.  I've never believed that I have good "taste" (as in the physical faculty), but coffee from a Keurig is like drinking liquid... kitsch?

We have 3 different sized Bialettis and a basic drip for humdrum days.   Am on the lookout for something new.

Maybe try one of those self fill reusable cups? Might remove the feeling (and improve the coffee)

I've got a grinder and a cafatiere and always have a bag of fresh beans in the fridge. Makes great coffee and I really like the ritual of it, it's a big part of my morning waking-up routine.

Also, after trying many, many different brands of beans I've found that Tescos own brand Java beans are the ones I like the most. Plus they're really cheap.  :heart:

We have a Rancilio Grinder plus Silvia. I'm not much of a coffee geek but it seems good to me. Wife does care about coffee and swears the Silvia is one of mankind's greatest achievements.

I'm probably going to buy an espresso machine soonly. I dont drink coffee, so it would mainly be for guests. I'm looking at this de Longhi machine (http://www.delonghi.com/en-int/products/coffee/coffee-makers/pump-espresso/scultura-ecz-351bk-0132103102) at the moment which I can buy for about $200 here. I would probably have bought a capsule machine because I really liked my old Tchibo in Germany, but the only capsules you can buy here are Nespresso and I don't want to give Nescafé money if I can avoid it.

Anyone have any experience with that de Longhi?

It does. The Green Mountain/ cheap cups are all pretty terrible, IMO. It's all about finding a cup you like.

I'm not a fan of dark, dark coffees either, though. I only started drinking to get out of the three-soda-a-day calorie problem while maintaining my caffeine habit. I'd go with Tea but it's honestly a bigger pain in the ass than coffee.