f13.net

So I"m trying to get back into real PC gaming again.  Right now I only have a laptop that has some crappy intel card that chokes on some games released in 2005 (literally).  Unfortunately, the way my house is setup i don't have a good place to put a full fledged desktop setup (desk, monitors, etc...) without secluding myself to the very very corner of the house away from the tv and wife.

I've priced out a good gaming laptop for $1.2k (12gigs ram ($35 upgrade from 8gigs so why not), GTX 660M, 256gb SSD, etc..).  That seems to be able to play modern games (notably skyrim and  at really high settings at 1920x1080. 

However, now that we cut cable, our main 50" TV does not get much use anymore.  I'm toying with the idea of buying a small desktop I can place next to the TV, and game using the TV, wireless keyboard, and mouse over HDMI.  It looks like I cna probably get a good small gaming tower for $600-800

The main problem is I would need a good way to use a wireless keyboard and mouse on a couch (some kind of lap table thing I guess.  I've heard you can't play games at 1080p because of unreadable text, so it's best to play at 720p.

Does anyone have any experiences with this, is it worth it?

Have you met Sky's grief title?

He's a big proponent and can go over the drawbacks, tips and tricks he's learned over the last um.. 8 years of doing this.

Yeah Sky's the man to talk to about this.

I tried PC gaming on the TV for a while after doing my back in. Crucial difference being I was lying down on a futon mattress directly in front of the TV rather than sat back on a couch, so I was able to use a mouse on a mousemat the mattress beside me and a wireless keyboard on my lap. It was still uncomfortable - you have a lot less freedom of movement in such a situation than if you're sat at a desk and gaming quickly gets tiring.

1080p is indeed very hard to read game text at. Some games are worse than others - Skyrim for instance was completely unplayable because the text was crucial to read and it was far, far too small. Playing at 720p helps a bit, but depending on your TV might look a bit shit.

Getting a controller helped a lot, the wired Xbox 360 controller is awesome and cheap, but only for some games of course. Steam's Big Picture is very cool for PC TV gaming, but that's just the Steam interface, you're still at the mercy of the game itself after that in terms of controller & large text support.

If you build a small desktop PC and start off by playing via the TV and it doesn't work out you can always get a monitor later and work out some way of fitting it into your house. Wall mounted monitor, fold out keyboard stand, I don't know, there'll be a way somehow I'm sure!

The text is my no.1 complaint.  It's really difficult with most games.

I'd second the Xbox 360 controller.  You can get a wireless one (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Xbox-Wireless-Controller-Windows/dp/B004QRKWKQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1369060942&sr=8-4&keywords=xbox+360+controller+windows).  One of my favorite purchases for the PC as some games just play better with a controller.

But really, other than the text, it's awesome to kick back and play a game you just purchased off Steam for 50% less than its Xbox proice while remaining on your couch and having 60" of glory in front of you.

I have a wired xbox controller that I use with my laptop, but not sure that'll work with some games I intend to play, like X-Com and FPS.

That would be "Yea or nay?"

 :oh_i_see:

The recent XCom reboot? Works like a charm. Better than mouse & keyboard in some ways in fact.

10 years!

My setup is weird but it works for me.

Keyboard: I have a logitech wireless keyboard that I use on my lap, though I often prop my legs up on the coffee table (which apparently people don't have anymore!).

Mouse: I had used a wireless mouse for years but a couple years ago I got tired of spotty reception and now I use a wired mouse (I have a powered USB hub mounted under the coffee table, cable runner under the rug). The mouse setup is the weirdest piece of the puzzle, I have an old firm pillow that I lay on the sofa next to me and I use a thin hardcover book as a mouse pad on it. Very comfortable and works great.

Controller: Wireless 360 controller that's awesome. I use whatever input is appropriate for the game, there's no compromising, really. Love it for stuff like Saint's Row.

Video: HDMI just works. I use nvidia and they have a tool in their control panel to adjust for over/underscan if that's a thing. At native 1080p I have overscan, so it fakes in 1846x1024 or something, most games see it as desktop resolution, may not even be an issue depending on your monitor. I'm on my second 1080p set, I had previously used a 720p set. With 720p zoom mode, something like Marvel Heroes with tiny non-scalable text works fine. I play most stuff in 1080p as most developers allow you to scale the UI or it auto-scales. Planetside 2 is a main offender, almost unplayable with the miniscule icons, but it's maybe three or four games I've come across where it's been an issue. I put 40? 70? a lot of hours into Skyrim at 1080p without any issues. At any rate, tl;dr: 1080p is fine mostly, and 720p works when you need it to. My tv is my only monitor, so it's fine for web browsing, etc (though amazon is a bitch and doesn't let you watch HD movies over the browser).

Sound: I use an X-Fi with a breakout box for digital optical. But the onboard 5.1 over optical is fine, too; I just had the X-Fi from a previous build. I highly recommend using the optical connection to your home theater receiver and using 5.1 (or better if you have it). Again, most games just recognize this these days.

Steam: I don't use Big Picture, just regular old Steam.

It's really gotten to be a fairly mainstream thing. I don't hack .ini files or create custom .inf files or anything anymore. Other than adjusting the set for overscan (which may not be an issue depending on your set), it's plug and play. 

DISCLAIMER: My 720p set was 61" and my 1080p sets 65" and now 71". So take discussion of resolution accordingly. I think the 71" is just about perfect for 10' away at 1080p, I wouldn't want it any larger. Not sure how much that will play into your setup, since you're working with an existing set, but for any new installs I'd make sure to get a really big monitor, as it makes a difference (which is also why I favor DLP - go price a 70" flat screen vs DLP). Unfortunately, I'm probably on my last big screen gaming rig, as DLPs aren't going to be produced anymore and it's crazy expensive for flat screens of a decent size. Too bad, for all the hate on DLPs, I could buy 3 71" for the price of a single LCD 70" and still have enough money to build a gaming PC.

Thanks for the info!

I need to think this through.  Unfortunately, it appears that gaming desktops aren't *that* much cheaper than laptops (prebuilt, not sure if I want to deal with building it myself).  While the desktops are more powerful (at about $900 + cost of an SSD), the $1.2k laptops are more than capable for today's games it seems. 

Though it does seem like gaming from the tv is pretty viable.

Get a laptop with HDMI out and a USB port and you could do the same thing, though I don't think you can get good audio outs on a laptop. If your receiver does HDMI switching, you could run the laptop to it and then to the TV and be good.

Yeah I forgot to say, my TV is only a 40". I don't think I'd have any issues at all with 1080p text on a 70"  :awesome_for_real:

<jealous>

Regarding mouse & keyboard use on the couch -

My wife uses something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Bellagio-Italia-Lap-Desk-Hazelnut-Brown/dp/B003M6L81Y/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1369082296&sr=8-5&keywords=lap+table) for her laptop on the couch, but it would function just as well for a mouse/keyboard combo. The underside of it has a beanbag so it sits comfortably on your lap and can be positioned at different angles and whatnot.

Do keep in mind that laptops degrade much more quickly than desktops and are much less maintainable when they break or you want to upgrade. They have poor heat management and components typically start crapping out after a year or two of heavy use.

It's also generally easier to make PC's quieter than laptops. Acoustically dampened cases, large/slow case fans, passively-cooled graphics cards, SSDs etc. If you use the TV-connected PC as a media center (which I highly recommend) then it's nice to not have it be a whirring hovercraft kind of beast.

Talking of media center use, a semi-decent sound system for it is a good investment. I got a Sony 5.1 system for about £200 I think and I love it, both for watching stuff and gaming.

After more thinking and browsing it looks like I would need to build my own desktop, as most pre-built towers with a decent graphics card costs around $1k.  I'm probably not going to go wtih a laptop after all, as my current one does satisfy my portable coding needs better than a larger one that could game.  The faster degradation due to heat is a good point too.

Newegg seems to have decent DIY combos, such as this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1307802) and this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.1307678) that seems to be quite good for its price.

If I remember, there's been a huge push to miniaturize desktops for TV use as well.  You might take a look at smaller form factors if it bothers you?

I use a pretty big case. Hang a painting on it (seriously).

With big fans, it's barely audible. Best thing I did was add on aftermarket cooling (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186048) to my gpu. The Twin Frozr 2 card next to it is at least 4 times as loud...and it's considered one of the best and quietest factory installed coolers (or was at the time).

The p80 case had input from silentpc.com, you should probably check them out for recommendations for current stuff if sound levels are a concern (they are).

Those are decent bundles. The only thing I'd suggest is ripping out the Rosewill power supply and getting any other brand. I've had one bad experience with a Rosewill PSU that fried my motherboard and would never recommend one again.

The problem I've heard with Miro-ATX cases is that it's hard to cycle out heat as efficiently.  Since this thing will just sit next to my entertainment center I'm not too worried about size (that may change once I get it setup though).

I don't believe so. Computer components draw a lot less power these days and a well designed case with decent 120mm fans can move  more than enough air. My CPU is even passively cooled and never had a problem with it. A lot of the "heat" issues come from people doing competitive over-clocking or running multiple top graphics cards  but you are not going to be doing that in an HTPC.

I like Silverstone (http://www.silverstonetek.com/product_case.php?tno=1&area=en) cases because they've done a lot of work on small form factor, heat management and they look pretty good and are well made. Of course you pay for that.

HTPC != gaming PC.

okay, you're not going to be doing that in a SFF case then...

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=333&area=en

It can if you use high end gaming components in the build.

Just dropping in to say do not use Rosewill power supplies, or really anything else.  I guess their external sata docks are not terrible if you are looking for a positive.

Basically gaming rig is a bit more grunt and has a real video card and HTPC has a video capture card I assume? not so different.

Are there gaming mini-ITX motherboards now? I got the SG03 and a nice micro-ATX  board because I like having a small PC (which is also my TV replacement).


Silverstone also have some nice modular power supplies. I got one so I could get a short cable kit (http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?area=en&pid=219) which is a lot neater in a small case.

There's very little you need for a 'gaming' motherboard these days, assuming you aren't doing some ridiculous overclocked, multi-gpu, 3 monitor waste of money.

Integrated video capture cards for tv viewing are ancient history. I have had an HD Homerun Prime for a couple of years now.

http://www.silicondust.com (http://www.silicondust.com)

I do home automation professionally, I was so happy when integrated tuner cards died and we got nicer higher reliability network based devices instead. For a while there, specialty companies had the higher end HTPC market by the balls. Really shitty media center based builds were super expensive and the cards were unreliable as all hell. DRM bullshit basically fucked the TV viewing portion of the industry. Now there just isn't much interest anymore, which is why i went back to college.

Guess I can't use Newegg bundles, since almost all of their bundles contain a Roswell power supply.  Also, it's been too long since I built computers to even know what Watt power supply I'd even need for a decent gaming rig.

What I mean is, a gaming pc can be an htpc, but not the reverse.

Gaming pc needs better processor, more ram and the best gpu you can afford. Should also have decent input options, though a powered USB hub goes a long way for that. My old power pc & cooling 650W PSU is a total champ despite me having a case stuffed full of things running off it. (I also have 2 gpus and overclock so pfft).

Anyway, if you don't require a SFF, I'd stay away from it for a gaming rig. Too many heat issues and lots of component compromise due to size. Get a big roomy case and tons of big fans.

Oh, Yeah that is totally true.

If you have an unlimited budget get this computer to stick next to your TV:

http://www.falcon-nw.com/desktops/tiki

And don't forget the granite base!

What a tease, I thought it was a tiki form factor.

Because a tiki pc would be AWESOME.

Did my under the tv pc buildout using this case.
http://www.fractal-design.com/?view=product&prod=94

The pro's being:
- Small
- Was one of the few cases i could find without bullshit all over the front
- Full sized atx power supply
- Full sized video card (i have a 670 in mine)

The con's being
- Its cramped as fuck inside

That's nice. 10 x 8 x 15 is nice and tight.

Is it quiet?

This is going to be a terribly stupid question, but do CPUs come with a heatsink/fan or do you have to buy one separately? I ask because no bundles actually have one bundled, which seems odd.

*edit* and how easy is it to chip a CPU these days by putting on a heatsink/fan?  I remember doing that in high school and being pissed off.

They generally ship with a heatsink. But it's not that well respected generally for quality, cooling or noise (tends to use small size fans which can whine). For a silent or performance PC a after market replacement which can have a large cooling area and larger / slower fan is a worthwhile investment. And a pain to retrofit in most cases.


The SG03 I have has two 120mm fans going straight through the case. It's perfectly adequate for a grunt PC, and a small form factor fits neatly in a lot of environments. I'd only consider a big PC case if you are overclocking, running multiple top end video cards or a lot of disks.

With graphics cards don't be tempted by the top of the line. They're generally over-kill for a TV, which is relatively low res (and have nice soft pixels providing automatic anti-aliasing), and have a substantial premium. Even if you can afford it you'll generally get much better value with something a notch or two down the pecking order. They also tend to have the clocks wound down a bit and refined manufacturing which helps a lot with heat management. Also graphics cards are pretty easily upgradeable over the life of the machine.

This is making me so want to upgrade my own PC :/

1080p can still be a beast when running shadows and a lot of shaders with a large view distance. Although I'm still running dual 460 1GBs and mostly good.

I wouldn't be opposed to trying a SFF case at some point, though this is the second pc I've used my p80 for. But it absolutely has to fit the Accelero cooler, that puppy will be on every gpu I can fit it onto, it's an order of magnitude quieter than anything short of liquid.

Slightly off-topic, but for watching "television", look into a WDTV and a 1TB or so portable hard drive.

So, I've finally come up with the following build: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Zmof (http://pcpartpicker.com/p/Zmof).

I've pretty much completely blown my hopeful budget of $700 out of the water but oh well, it's still slightly less than I was expecting to pay for a gaming laptop.  I went for the water cooling (same kind my friend has so at least I know someone who uses it) because it was only $40 more than an aftermarket cooler, and since I will be using this to watch movies and such (since it's attached to my TV) I figured it would be best to have it as quiet as possible. 

I tossed in a closed loop watercooler for the CPU so its pretty quiet unless I'm gaming and the video card spins up.

How about something like this (http://www.asrock.com/nettop/index.asp)?

Since everyone else is commenting about the PC itself, and concentrating on the set up, I will attempt to answer a question that wasn't really addressed... The mouse and keyboard ones.

I turned my cable TV off over a year ago, and have a laptop to TV setup, and I use a Logitech K400 Wireless Keyboard with touch pad.

(http://i.imgur.com/pgnxeiJ.jpg)

It works reasonably well for almost everything, it has an almost full size keyboard, and it's lightweight. I also only had a few differing games or applications I needed a separate wireless mouse for. When using a wireless mouse with this keyboard I usually will use a book or TV tray for the mouse surface, but with optical mice they work almost anyplace.

That's a cool little keyboard.  seems like the perfect size too (especially if I need to play a game with another real mouse)

Well ordered everything with this final configuration (http://pcpartpicker.com/user/KallDrexx/saved/1DAE).  It actually came out to about $950 charged due to some Newegg deals going on (not counting the $40 in mail in rebates).  Seems like a pretty good deal.  I also did get that keyboard tao recommended.

Let's see how this goes, and hopefully I don't do what I did many eons ago and crack my CPU while installing the heatsink.

I'm guessing it was a pre-heat spreader cpu?

Socketted cpu's all come with an ihs now, so you'd have to tighten the heatsink bracket pretty tight to crack one now.

Yeah, it was an old AMD chip back probably 10-12 years ago.  They didn't have the metal plate that today's CPUs have (or at least intels).  So if you didn't apply pressure equally when attaching the heatsink you could chip a corner.

Holy crap man, that keyboard is extremely light.  I'm liking it, thanks for the tip!

Glad you like it. It's something I couldn't do without, having a media PC to TV.

Not only is it lightweight, but I'm still using the first batteries it came with more than a year later. The size is almost perfect (when you get used to the right shift being skewed slightly for the arrow keys. The touch pad mouse and additional mouse button in the upper left corner made it really easy (especially if you already are good at using a laptop touchpad). It works great for general browsing, and I've even done some gaming with it. Only fps games required a separate mouse (at least for me).

I'm assuming you're wanting to do more than just game on this tv.  One of the big problems I had was finding a remote setup for watching media.  I settled in on this device:
http://flirc.tv/

It's essentially a piece of hardware and software that let you point any remote at it and tell it what key / keys it needs to send when it sees that signal again.  Its basically the reverse of a universal remote for a computer.

Wow I'm outta touch. I love that site!

Lol right after I posted that I started noticing the out of place right shift key.  That is awkward, but I'll get used to it.


Neat thanks!.  Now that I got things setup (literally in the last few hours) I've been trying to figure out how to make it accessible for the wife.  I'll check this out.


I was bumbling around like an idiot trying to pick out parts before a friend told me about that site.

I think the biggest issue I'd run into is that my TV is only 46".  It's fine for watching some TV or a movie in my relatively small living room, but I sit about 13 feet away from it and I suspect I'd want a much larger TV to make text/icons/etc more comfortable.

Mine's only 49 or 50.  I have only played one game so far (Mark of the Ninja) but everything seems comfortable to read at 1366x768 (apparently thats one of the native resolutions of my tv)

That's way too small if you're 13' away ;) I'd recommend at least a 60" for that distance. It seems too big for about 5 minutes, and then everything else seems too tiny.

My fiancee is pretty pissed DLP production is over. She's a convert and now keeping up with the sizes we're used to just got 5x more expensive for lesser tech (imo...I was just watching my DLP from like 75-80 degrees off center and it was fully watchable).

I've found that unless I'm pretty close to my 60" I can't read the text on a 1080p.  Its not an issue when playing games or using big picture mode, but it makes using a web browser pretty bad.  Initially I tried adjusting the DPI setting in windows but I found that had problems with a few of the games I wanted to play so I turned it off.  I just use my iPad or laptop if I'm on the couch and want to do anything but play a game, watch some tv, or a movie.

crtl+

Yeah Sky, I was reading that thinking why doesn't he just zoom.

:ye_gods:

Guess it's totally possible people don't know about it... For old guys or like me on a 50" tv with media pc, Yes Ctrl +, or ctrl scroll wheel, but mostly I use the pinch gestures on my trusty mini keyboard (hint Kaldrexx lol).

Yeah, at first I was squinting at text while browsing sites to download everything and then I randomly tried ping-to-zoom.  It works pretty flawlessly on that keyboard, and makes it pretty easy to make web pages easily readable from the tv :D

I'm really happy with having ditched the TV and just making the computer the center of the room. A big table, his and hers computers, 30" monitor, comfy chair a couple of meters back. If there was any content on TV I cared about I'd get a TV card but that's moving to streaming anyway.

Really space efficient too, which maybe will become a factor if more people are living in smaller spaces and the "big-ass TV room" becomes a luxury.

Gods, statements like that make me wish my wife was a gamer.

But then, if I married a gamer with as little self moderation skills as I have, well, we'd probably both be on an episode of Hoarders or some shit.

My house is 950sq ft  :grin:

I'd need to check on width, but I fear a 60" TV would push my L/R speakers into the hallway and the path of the front door (my house is a little larger than Sky's at 1200ft^2, but the living room is not a very large room).

You people know big tvs are meant to be hung on articulating mounts bolted to a wall, right?

I have 5 doors (one an oversized double french set) and a large set of windows in my living room. It's a challenge to re-arrange for the winter to accomodate the wood heat, but the summer setup is perfect. It's roughly 16x16.

Finally got my gaming area setup.

Are the floor pillows (right side of the TV, directly next to the end of the couch/PC) for a pet bed? If so, I would consider possibly moving the PC. Pet hair is not something that is especially good for a PC to inhale and could lead to heat issues.

The left side of the entertainment unit, where there's nothing and then a (closet?) door would be just as good a place IMO, if it must be on the floor. Another benefit is it prevents sunlight hitting the PC.

Yeah, the pillows are for my dog.  I'm fully expecting to have to clean out the computer about once a month. 

I can't put it to the left side, mostly because my wife refuses to have the "copy machine" that out in the open (the wood on the left of the picture is the door to the hallway).

I have a 12' corded powered usb hub that I mounted under the coffee table that works great. My keyboard's rf receiver, wired mouse and card reader plugged in and still room for one more device. Good speeds, since the card reader is for pictures from my camera.