f13.net

The end of Season 6 has just wrapped up and I think it's maybe time to take a look at what we want to do for the future. Here are some questions that I'd like people to consider:

Are you up for a season 7?
Would you want future leagues to use the Chaos Edition rather than the LE (I'm assuming most of us already have CE anyway).
We didn't get 32 players last season and this caused some organisational headaches. Would you like to see us recruit players from other venues (such as Qt3 or Brokenforum) who might not be f13ers and might not want to participate in the forums otherwise?
What do you want to do regarding new teams, TV limits etc?

I'm absolutely not looking to start up a new league right away but I'd like to get opinions on what rules we should be using and whether the kind of leagues we ran before are still viable.

- I would be up for a season 7.  My Norse team just finished cutting it's teeth at the end of season 6, and never got to curb-stomp faces in the Failoffs.

- Since CE is reverse compatible with LE, I don't see why not.  More variety = good thing, IMO.

- I think branching out to other niche forums is a great idea, and the two you mentioned seem like-minded to us.  We also have the possibility of advertising applicants through our Steam Community group, if we really didn't care that much about just how cynically-minded the person is  :grin:

- For the rules, I think the current iteration works.  Maybe if we get a really active season 7 from branching out and have some more participation we may need to revisit them, but I'm cool with what we've got for now.

Definitely up for s7.

Adding extra people via another forum sounds good.

Current rules are fine. Relaxing the TV limit also fine.

Not planning to run a d&m or similar right now unless people shout that they want it. Seems like the break is doing good. Do plan to shout at the masters people to finish that off.

I am all over a season 7.  Even if the numbers are reduced, we're a great community, and there is absolutely no reason to stop.  Hell, season 1 only had around 12 or 14, I think.  I'm fine with a smaller group to destroy.

I'm all for advertising the league to bring in new people.  I also think the TV limit should be done away with.  We should also use the Chaos edition.  There is no reason not to.

We should be more strict on games not being played to keep things moving along though.  I also think that championship teams should be required to retire.

Can't wait for season 7.

One s6 innovation I think we should repeat is running the groups independent of the playoffs so we can accept any even number of players.

Qualification round is all well and good - but not as good as letting everyone play. If the groups have to be different sizes or playoffs need to be constructed separately in order to fit in all applicants then I give no fucks.

I'm chomping at the bit for the next season.

More people is better just not sure about forum logistics... but more blood bowlll

More strictness around game deadlines is good

No more TV limit's cool

Definitely Chaos Edition since it's backward compatible

I'm all for season 7 if someone will do the organizing (and keeping people within the time limit within which to get the games played)

I'm up for s7.

Count me in. I'm already looking forward to making a new team again, getting smashed again, and vowing never to stray from my lizards again, again.

No real preference on group size. A quiet mention on other fora couldn't hurt but I'd be cool with keeping it to just us as well.

I'm all for tight restrictions on feeder promotions, but that's because I almost never play feeder league games. I'd rather not have to grind out purples in battlegrounds before being competitive against the catasses in arenas.

Definitely in for next season. As far as the other changes go, the only one I'm truly unsure about, is the dropping of TV caps for Feeder League teams. It could lead to some, abuse, to be honest. Now I don't think that there would be a great deal of that sort of thing with our player base, but it does make me hesitate. There might be some sense in looking at Spiralling Expenses however, if enough people feel that high TV teams are an issue.

If we want to bring in other forums/communities into our league, I think that it would be fine, but we just have to be careful not to over-rely on outside players to make up the numbers. Partly I feel, this is because BB is an unforgiving game, and from what I've seen of some of the other forum leagues, well, to put it politely, I suspect that there may be a lot of tears if they end up being exposed to (just as an example purely) an equivalent of Ruvaldt's Chaos team. We can keep in mind that we don't absolutely have to go for 32 players again, and that we can do with lower numbers, should the case be such.

I'm game with all of that.

One caveat, which I found out the hard way running a league recently: not only do you need an even number of teams overall, but you need an even number of teams in each division. I can't remember if that was known or not, but we have 14 teams in two leagues of 7 and it is FUCKED. Everyone has a bye week, of course, but there are several people who play each other twice but other division members not at all. No bueno.

I won't be able to do it again. Partly it's because my schedule won't allow it in the winter and tax season. The other part is that things simply drug on far too long this time. One issue that we can't seem to resolve is that we're an incredibly international bunch, and while that's not a problem in the traditional sense, it did make scheduling a problem for many of my games.

I will say that I did get what I hoped to get out of it, a win, and a trip to the playoffs. It was fun.

Going with what Megrim said: I'm happier with fewer numbers if it means less drama from non-f13 people. I would be happy with an 8 or 12 person league really - I don't care overly how big it is.

I do hope we can get back to Falc like "9 days or it's a forfeit" scheduling, things dragging out can really kill momentum and enthusiasm.

7 day schedule!  It's certain to cause problems, but it would be consistent and keep things moving.

If anything I'd bump it to 10 or 11 days but make it stricter.

I guarantee I and others will go away somewhere and be inaccessible for over a week at some point. Only missing 1 game falls under 'shit happens' wheras having people who will unavoidably miss multiple games will encourage leniency.

I sat out S6 but I hope to return in S7, with a new chaos-y team (unless my superelf is still alive, I have forgotten).

I think a strict 8-days seems about right.  A full week plus a day of slop for administrative tasks.  Too long and you start to forget there's a season going on, and constantly slipping the days makes it hard to schedule the next week's games.

I would shoot for 10 or 11.  We have a pretty international crowd here and seven to nine days could make those games harder to get done.

I'm obviously one of the beneficiaries of that but 9 days worked pretty well before as well

I like 8-9. 10-11 just encourages our slowpokes.

If we combine with BF the biggest hurdle will be getting them on the same page re: a wide range of TVs in the league. They seem really concerned about having a wide difference in their own leagues.

Am in for season 7 and as has been said multiple times think we just need to get back to the strict deadlines and things will work out fine from there as I think the playoffs took almost as long as the regular season to get done and the less said about the fail offs this year the better. I don't mind if we have people from outside the f13 community joining in as long as they realise it is played by our rules and time schedules. I also now no longer see the point of limiting TV from feeder league teams, I'd rather face stronger starting teams and less inducement randomness tbh since I will be playing my Lizards for their 4th outing.

Suspect I'll get shouted down, but I don't even have a problem with pairings who worked out by day 2 of a fixture cycle that the first slot they can both play is day 11 of 9 at 1900 GMT or whatever. What we need zero tolerance on is nothing happening till day nine then a week of 'I'll look out for you on steam'.

So long as people arrange actual times I'm good.

My thoughts exactly.  The important thing is that a definite time has been arranged.  I'll wait a little longer as long as there is a plan.

Yeah, I think 9 was fine with 1-2 day extensions if and only if the coaches confirm that a specific game time has been scheduled.

Playing nurgle for season 7.  There, now we have a signup thread!

I'm happy to play again.  However, I will be moving to Poland around mid January, and then it might be awhile before I'm able to get internet setup at home.  So starting anytime before the end of January probably wont work out so great for me.

I'd be up for season 7, but I do have an issue with too tight a restriction of number of days for each game day. With all the varying international time zones we have, often weekends are the ONLY time I can get a game in with non-US players (especially those down under). As it stands, my weekends are split between my wife and my writing with football on Sundays. It's easier when the NFL isn't in season because Sundays are then mostly open, but if I have to play someone 14 hours ahead of me? I can't do that during the week.

I would say that we definitely need to set a time limit on game days that is hard, and those who don't schedule the games within like a 3-day grace period get forfeited. I just want the window to be wider than 10 days.

A couple of things.

Firstly as far as I'm concerned this is still Falc's gig and if he wants to step back in to take charge for S7 then that's his right. He's been pretty quiet recently for various reasons so I'm pre-empting him a little here but I'm not trying to steal his thunder.

Secondly if I do take the reigns again for S7 then we definitely won't kick off until we're well into the new year. I'm thinking mid February or so to give people time to get enthused again and for us to maybe recruit some new blood.

The points about deadlines are well made. I was far too lax in S6 but I'm conscious that some people do have legitimate scheduling issues and I generally come down on the side of not being a dick just for the sake of it. There will be less latitude given in S7 though. If games aren't at least scheduled by the deadline then they will be forfeited.

i'm down for another season.  CE for sure, and i'd be happy with whatever team arrangement feels the healthiest to the organizers.

i've been considering swapping out my trusty lizards for a couple seasons but given how entrenched some of the bigger TV teams are i feel anxious stepping in again from square one, handicaps notwithstanding --  my gaming time is a little constrained of late so i'm not certain i'd be able to put a team through its initial workouts in the feeder league to get things up to a competitive level. i'd prefer some way of gently easing some of the mega teams out to pasture but i can understand wanting to preserve monsters like ruvaldt's team if you're coaching them.  just scary for poor baby drogg's prospective new teams  :cry:

You should definitely play your lizards, Drogg.  I'd say you're one of the top three contenders to go all the way if you played them another season.  They're seriously scary in a way similar to my Presidents.

Championship teams should be forced to retire; that would fix some of that problem you mentioned.  It did this season with Andydavo's insanely good dark elves absent.  The Presidents won't be in next season as I'm choosing to abide by that sentiment voluntarily.  Instead you'll get to contend with their wives, The First Ladies.

Not really getting much games with my elves on Feeder league.
I've been trying out new teams n stuff, doubtful I'd end up with a 1200 TV even.
We'll see. I foresee great fails for the High Elves played like Dark Elves.

I'm kinda divided between playing feeder and non-feeder with my casual friends. If the latter team is allowed to join, I might just slot in my TV 1350 Humans on next season. If not, I'll just throw in the High Elves to the slaughter.
And fuck Pro-Elves. AV7 is a joke.

Feel free to hit me for feeder games whenever i'm on steam.
Fresh team into the season can be brutal especially if you go against a high-value bash team right at the start (my fresh TV1000 skaven team in season 6 taught me the error of my ways)

yea i was teaching my newbie friends how to play, so they end up taking a looong time per turn. it ate my BB time.
we started at 10 pm and finished at 11.30  :why_so_serious:

Now you've got me waffling about putting the dwarves on ice.  :why_so_serious:

The Mutiny is willing to make its glorious return, unless I suddenly have an urge to get my ass beat as The Fantasticks.

I'm definitely playing Chaos Dwarves

I'm definitely playing... something.

I've got choices of terrible-record Humans, unthemed High Elves, beat-to-shit Khemri, or something built-up in a jiffy from the feeder league.  Choices, choices.

I liked 9 days.  It seemed to often have two weekends in there but didn't extend to two whole weeks, if that makes sense.  Maybe it doesn't mathematically, I dunno, but it seemed like it! 

But yeah, more important than 'X number of days' we need a ruthless heartless dictator to move the day along.  My only nagging worry is two late-ish people both saying "I tried to schedule it with the other guy" and both failing and both blaming each other... I dunno, make it a tie in that situation?

Part of the game is knowing how to handle TV differential though. There is should be nothing wrong with playing a completely vanilla team throughout a season. This is especially true for some teams - elves for example pretty much gain spp for just walking onto the pitch.

By the way guys, the latest patch and server shuffle has actually introduced a 'Spectate' option under the Community tab. You can watch live, and recently played games through it.

Also, what is the end-consensus on how the next season is going to go?

Slowly, apparently.

A definitive statement from Falc on whether or not he wants to take back over would help, as Iain is waiting for that.

Pretty cool.

It would, but I don't think we should hold our breath.  

Putting a community on hold for a message that might never come risks letting people drift away and never return.  The last time Falc was a commissioner for a season was almost a year ago, and the main reason there was a big gap between seasons 5 and 6 was because we waited for him then, too.

I'd at least like to see a sign-up thread for season 7 by the end of January.

Yeah, let's shit or get off the pot on this. Falc, I love you, but it takes two minutes to post and I know you come by here from time to time because you played this past season.

I'd message him, tell him to post by Sunday, either way. Let's roll with this.

I've messaged him and asked him to post here. If he doesn't then I'll roll on at the end of Jan and post a signup thread. If he still wants to run it then that's fine with me.

I've been a jerk.

I mean it.

Now...

Ok, so. I've been a jerk to this fantastic community I contributed to found, and I can't even say why. Excuses, I got plenty. Reality is, I missed it and I am ready to play again, and all.
Do I feel like taking the Commissioner role again? Honestly, no. Even if it's not much, I'm entering a time of my life of great changes, and while I still have plenty of free time in my days, I have a number of growing anxieties due to "things I have to do before that deadline" that I simply can't put another one on top of those, no matter how sweet it is. I LOVED every second of my work on Blood Bowl, and I am terribly sorry for not having updated the Rankings (another thing I really loved to have). It's just all a consequence of what I mentioned. For these things, I am sorry. And maybe I apologise too much, but it's just the way I am. Acknoweldging things I could have done differently help me do them right the next time. I suppose.

I also think Iain did a fantastic job and I feel that he completely shares my feelings and vision of the League. Even if I wanted to take back my role, I wouldn't do it without him. Since I don't feel like doing so, it's all on you pal! And thank you so so much for doing this. If the whole thing died I would have not forgiven myself, you saved me from some more self-deprecation.

About the new season (and take these just as my "votes", not as my "rules"):

- I am OK with extending the invitation to new people from other commnities, as long as f13 remains the hub. Since it will still be called "f13 League", they have to come here. We don't go there.

- I think it's OK to extend the TV some more, if people are freaked out about the difference with seasoned teams, but I wouldn't go higher than 1400. And I still think that's too much. "Doctored" teams coming from the Feeder League are already very powerful, due to all the minmaxing. If you take the TV limit away you are gonna have frustrating monstruosities left and right. I'd vote against it.

- I would still make sure that no team that ever played outside the f13 cartel can sign up for the League. Either you are brand new or come from the feeder. No teams from other confederations. Maybe it's my little obsession, but I like it like that.

- Any edition you prefer is fine. No reasons not to switch to Chaos if it's compatible with the previous version for those who didn't want to upgrade.

- What else?

- Thank you for being patient, and for being still here after all this time.

 :heart:

I think maybe a way to split the difference would be to allow teams from similar private leagues to make the hop over, if one of us was around to testify that there weren't any roster shenanigans going on. The little side leagues that I've played in with all people who play here anyway, for example, or Iain's testimony about Qt3/BF league, etc.

I feel like with the step back we took in participation numbers last season we're probably better served setting the rules such that the fewest number of people find a reason to not play. If that means loosening the rules on TV/what team sources can join so there are fewer barriers, then I say do it. Or alternately if we figure out that a fresh TV 1000 across the board start is more comfortable for people, then go with that instead, whatever. It just plays so much better with the full 32 that I think it is probably ok to compromise our principles a little bit to get there.  :wink:

And Falc, I don't think you've been a jerk. Honestly it is pretty unusual for an endeavor like this to last 2 seasons, let alone 6 with the same guy running 5, so really, good job.

Yeah, I'm your fan, Falc. I don't think you're a jerk or anything. I just want things to move.

I don't think many people have multiple teams over 1300 TV who aren't already 100% in for next season. Raising the cap makes it harder for new coaches to be competitive, not easier.

Being more flexible with the cap might be nice. But I don't actually care that much, because I do not care enough to make the Perfect Feeder League Team should I tire of the Norse, and I think inducements do a good job of handicapping a match.

I also kinda understand Falc's fetish for Purity of the Teams to a degree, but ... it's also sort of a silly, random whim, and I think we'd have a much easier time reaching critical mass if that got relaxed for sure.

But ultimately, the only thing I really care about are the days getting advanced in a timely manner. :P

Raising the cap makes it easier for new coaches because they can build a better team in the feeder league and bring them into the regular season.  Instead of being forced to only have 1300 they can come in with 1500, etc.

I still vote to do away with the new team TV cap altogether, but I think I'm in the minority on that.

The reason the 2000TV teams win, is that they are piloted by people who are less bad at bloodbowl. The reason those people are less bad at bloodbowl is that they've played enough games to build 2000TV team(s).

Even with 1000TV teams all around, the same people would win.


I don't mind a few transfers from another league if people want to come from there. Other than that, suggest we stick to prior teams, new teams, or anything under nn00TV from the feeder.

Ok so here are my proposed rules for Season 7. Discuss them and I'll post the signup thread by the end of January.

Teams:
Teams from any previous f13 leagues are eligible to compete including gimmick leagues, D&M league, Masters and the feeder league.
Teams which played their most recent match in a regular season have no TV limit.
Teams which played their last game in any of the other f13 leagues have a TV limit of 1400 including cash and injured players. They must have at least 11 players on the roster (this can include injured players).
Teams from outside f13 league may join as long as they meet the TV limit for other f13 league teams as above. In addition I reserve the right to refuse entry to teams that appear to have been farmed.
Chaos Edition teams are allowed.

Coaches:
Competitors must have an f13 account and must join the f13 Bloodbowlers Steam group. They do not have to be active on the forums but are encouraged to post their match reports and join in the discussions.
Steam name and BB Coach name must be provided when signing up.

Timescale:
Each league day will last for 9 days. This should give coaches with widely separate timezones at least one weekend to organise their match.
At the time limit all games that have not yet been played will be forfeited as a 0-0 draw.
Extensions will only be allowed if a match has been definitely arranged and will take place within a day or two of the deadline. If the match does not go ahead as planned then it will be forfeited.

Matches must be uploaded to BBManager before they will be validated. This should be done by the winning coach or by either coach in the case of a draw.

The league structure will be decided once signups are final. It will take the form of a championship with a playoff and failoff post-season cup. Number of divisions and format of the playoffs etc will be determined by the number of teams.

List of coaches with teams over 1400 in the feeder league:
This is the same as the list of people who will benefit from raising the TV cap. Genuinely new coaches aren't going to sink the time into grooming a 1500-TV team for tournament play because they haven't even decided if they like the game yet - and if they do, they'll skill wrong, or suffer so many injuries in the process that their 1500-TV team will have the stats of a 1350-TV team. Experienced coaches will understand that TV differential isn't necessarily significant in the hands of an inexperienced coach and will probably prefer to play casual games within their own communities anyway.

I'm not arguing whether or not a cap raise is bad for the league, but it's silly to think that the change would directly benefit much of anyone but you.

I'm entering next season with a team that will either be brand new or pretty close to being new so it won't affect me much.  I won't be hitting the old or new cap, most likely.  I'm just saying that fewer restrictions lets coaches tailor a team that is more suitable to them, and thus enables them to perform more towards their maximum ability/confidence/fun factor.

Maybe I should rephrase what I mean by "new coach."  I'm not talking about brand new coaches who are new to the game.  They're going to lose anyway.   :grin:

I'm talking about coaches who are new to this league.  I want coaches who are new to the league to not feel overwhelmed by teams that have spent the last five seasons developing into perfect scoring/killing machines like many of ours have, and they should at least have an option to build up something that they are comfortable with.  I'm not saying it would even make them more competitive, necessarily, it would just make the game more fun for them, which is kind of the point.  

I agree with Eldaec.  Most good coaches are going to find a way to win, regardless of the TV of their current team, and thus I think that having a TV cap for new teams is meaningless.  All it does is set an artificial bar that doesn't help or hurt anyone's chances to win, and restricts one's ability to enter the season with a team that they find more fun/are more confident playing.

Plus, we're not just talking about the Feeder League right now since we are opening the possibility of people from other leagues coming in.

Discussion is not necessary. Where do I post for signup?

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/85841906/speedy.jpg)

Is that Cheddar Persille's Mexican cousin, Manchego Persille?

What this ignores is the possibility of coaches from other leagues (I'm thinking mainly of the BF/Qt3 people) who might have teams they could bring in that aren't strictly in that zone.

Also, it should be said, it is good for everyone if I bring in my feeder team that's over 1400, because it is my shitty Khemri.  :why_so_serious:

My orc team in feeder league is exactly 1400 so I'd only need to get rid of any money on it to play (a change from going into the season with a fresh skaven team)  :grin:

I'll have you know my feeder Skaven are 1430!  The MNG injuries are deceptive.   :grin:

Then I take it back - there are noobs who would benefit!

(I kid, I kid :heart:)


Good point; I hadn't thought about it in conjunction with relaxing the f13-only restrictions (because that's another change I'm not so hot on, but I digress).

Sounds good to me.

If anyone wants to talk to the guys on the other forums and find out if they want to play, I suggest we worry about any possible transfers if we  establish they actually want to merge.

I can't see many people bringing their other-forum team over unless there is a full merger, since if they join our league they won't be able to play in their own.

IainC list of propositions is fine by me. And I'll be playing with the usual crippled girls.

For S7, my Norse G6 crew will fly again.  I just got my heavy hitters the skills they need to be true heavy hitters, and they're ready to roll some heads down the pitch.

I'm switching to Chaos Dwarves and I'm staying at TV 1000. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h9pr4KOPQqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=h9pr4KOPQqI)  :why_so_serious:

Heh, Goblins.

One thing that I have thought of, which may warrant some discussion, is team editing pre/post game.

I play in another league (on fumbbl) and one of the mechanics that is part of standard operation is a 'Ready to Play" button, that locks your team until after the next game is finished. What this does, is prevent the minmaxing pre-game shenanigans of "oh I'll just fire a player here and a re-roll there to not let that guy have any inducements against me". There could be an issue here, because some teams have a tendency to stockpile cash, and can afford to juggle expenditure more easily than some others.

Now, while this is not a massive problem with the f13 league (and arguably, not a problem at all), this has been more or less standard practice for the top competing teams for some time now. Having realised, however, that other leagues lock this out raised a question about the practice in my mind.

As far as I know, there is not way to implement a lock in the Cyanide version, but perhaps a Gentleman's Agreement may be in order on this.

Thoughts?

At what point do they lock it out, I'm a little confused? Like, I fired my deathroller for the playoffs, would that be allowed/not allowed in FUMBBL?

I thought messing with your TV was part of the game.  Like I see my next match is against some hard team and I have a -130 TV differential and I have some slightly-banged up lineman I had sort of pondered dropping but hadn't yet - in that case I would see it would get me a wizard and fire his ass.   Or same lineman, if I see I am over the next team by 170 TV, I would fire him in that instance to deny a wizard.   All strategery, I don't see why it's abusive.  Either way I am out the lineman.

I don't see it as a problem tbh. Team rigging shenanigans are part of the game and entirely in keeping with the spirit of Bloodbowl.

In other news, the signup thread for Season 7 (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=22952.0) is now open.

You can fire your Deathroller, but once you do and lock the team in for the next game, you can't then go back (after seeing that your opponent has ALSO fired some players to regain a Wizard) and trim some more TV off.

As I said, I don't necessarily think this an issue, but I did think that this may warrant some discussion.

I had a thought. What do we think about allowing a provision in the future for teams to go back and forth from the main league to Masters or D&M tournaments without having to trim TV when going back to the main league?


So it's basically a 'both players hit pass' kind of thing, gotcha. I'm not sure I see a fair way to enforce it in Cyanide version even if we wanted to, in that case.

Question for everyone.

Since I was one of the people that caused the failloffs to fail, should I sign up for S7?
I am still yet to see Ironwood active on Steam, snooze sure but nothing better than that, though I stopped looking every time after the first month or so.

I've enjoyed playing with you all up to this point and am happy to bow out if you get too many, but I wanted to see what people think before signing up because of that last round.

I would say that as long as you are reasonably sure that you can commit to the new season, I'd give you a pass on the last one. Likewise for others who went AWOL towards the end of S6.

It just wouldn't be the same without your ogres, Reborne.

fffffffffuuuuuuuuuuu I don't know what to play this season

I demand you sign up, Reborne.  :heart:

Why do I get the feeling that my team has reached mascot status?  :awesome_for_real:

No retiring the ogres until I get a rotter named Sid Vicious!

I decided to play a match last night against the computer to remind myself how the game even works. I decided I hate myself, so I made a new pro elf team. First team the computer throws at me is a damn 1300 TV dwarf team, thanks game.

I won, though. Because the computer is terrible.

Tried spectating out - unfortunately if you join a match in progress it doesn't put you at the current state of the game, it makes you watch the replay from the start, with no way to speed up/fast forward/etc.