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That's right, Dayton 500 weekend. The beer-swillin', minority hatin', gun totin', sons of the south get a day to celebrate and today is that day.

I tried watching some of the race and I guess I'm not good ol' boy enough to enjoy cars turning left all the time.

Seems to me that when something happens they bring out that yellow flag, any laps run during that time should not be counted.

Also seems to me that there wasn't one person driving, in the pit crew, or on the television team that didn't have an accent that belonged south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Have I mentioned how glad I am that this is being called the new major american sport?

edit: Oops..

I never understood it. Lots of cars going very fast...in an oval...many many times.

Well, there is a thing called "drafting", which makes it interesting from time to time. But other than that, yeah, they're just driving left for a few hours.

Automotive catassing ;)

Driving race cars seems like something that would be incredibly fun and exciting to do...  But I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would want to sit there and watch them go around and around a track.

At least Jeff Gordon can enunciate.

Seriously watch it a few times. You will get hooked.  I enjoy it quite a bit.  It's hip to bash on it, but it's heading towards being the #2 sport in America for a reason.

Wait wait, isn't the Daytona 500 the most watched sporting event in North America? I _thought_ it was in the world, but the World Cup Finals trash it.

You listen to too much Foxworthy.

I've tried.  The crashes are fun.  That's it.

WRX is real racing, with a higher incidence of crashes.

The difference being that Nascar crashes are the result of aggressive tactics, not accidents.

Oh, and Japanese cars are for pussies.

*God, I can't believe I'm defending Nascar here*

Jeff Gordon is a wee little bitch to Michael Schumacher.

Good lord no!

If you want to watch auto-racing, watch F1. (Not Indy, F1) They have actual courses and stuff. Hairpins, zig-zags, etc. Not just ovals.

Racing in general is boring to me, because you don't see anything athletic. You can watch a guy or catch something and marvel and their physical ability. I'm not sure most Nascar racers have any sort of ability other than a willingness to be in Nascar.

Uh, come again?


I agree in principle...but not all the cars are Japanese....Audi would be in also, if they were not outlawed from it.

Also....there's nothing wrong with a Japanese car that also happens to have actual power and ability....it's just that most of them don't.

It's the wrestling of racing. You see, the crashes are not a result bad handling, breakdowns, or obstacles. They're the result of a crazy fucker like Dale Earnhardt pushing the other drivers off the track. Sometimes ending in tragic results.

And tragic as it is, that's why people like it.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something: You're talking about sport compact racing right? That's just drag racing from people dumb enough to do it in uncontrolled circumstances.

I'll admit though, that's pretty cool too. I just don't like the cars and the people who drive them (all the better when they crash, I guess  :wink:)

I only watch Nascar when there's no other motor racing on.  I enjoy racing... F1 is at the top of my list, of course.  CART and IRL are also great fun.  I thought calling Nascar the wrestling of Motorsport was a fair estimation.  Most of our spare time in Britain was spent at racing events or driving very fast to attend one.  I'm sure the first thing we'll do when we move back will be to sort out a proper ride.

F1 has got to be the most god-awful-boring racing ever. Wow, they have hairpin corners. Every race is a boat race with the current best team basically leading/winning every race (i.e. Schumacher the last 3 years, Villnueve before that) or conspiring to put people in 1-2 positions that best help championship points.  It all comes down to who pumps in the most money into the team.  Bleh. 

Give me some paint trading at 195 any day of the week.

It is now, Abagadro, but it didn't used to be.   It's nearly impossible to pass on most circuits anymore.   :?  We can mostly blame Max Mosely for that.  I've looked forward to Champ Car a bit more than F1 in the past few years. 

Schumacher has  won five championships in a row, seven in total, I think.  Ferrari has gone far in helping make F1 a bit boring. I think they cheat, too.  :-P  F1 has become somewhat tedious because of it's rules.

Wow, 5 seasons. It's worse than I thought.  It's too bad if it used to be good and now is what it is.

Abagadro: Villnouve wasn't champion before Schumachers latest world titles, Mika Häkkinen was.

Some people say it's boring, me I say it's fantastic. Schumacher has beaten every driver record there is to beat, watching him race is something racing fans will discuss for years and years to come. The only driver to have come close to his sucess was Fangio, and he raced in the 50's.

The upcomming season will be very interesting. McLaren/Mercedes have two great drivers now with Montoya and Raikkonen, if the new MP4-20 just gets some reliability they will deffinatly be able to pinch the title from Ferrari this year. Button showed that BAR is a team that's quickly becomming one of the dominant teams once they got rid of Villneuve, and Renault have a future world champion on their hands in the form of Fernando Alonso.

Edit: I don't see Williams/BMW as a real competitor this year with Nick Heidfeld and Mark Webber, they will deffinatly grab alot of points if Webber shows the reliable racing he did for Jaguar but I don't see them taking the constructor or driver championships. Wihtout a doubt a top 5 stable though.

Wow.  How many different ways can we spell Villeneuve?

I will say this those nascar drivers are freaking agressive. I saw some clips of the race and holy shit those guys were bouncing off eachother on purpose ALOT. Hell after the race was freaking over they were still doing it. Either that or most of the field is drunk off their asses which is also a possiblity.

Kaid

Though I'm sure NBA players and such would have a seriously hard time going that fast and making the corner. It does require skill, even if you'd like to deny it.

There is one reason that NASCAR is as popular as it is right now, and this was made clear by a guy on ESPNRadio the other day. NASCAR promotes the ever-living FUCK out of their drivers and sport. You may be like me, and not know dick about racing, but you know the name Jeff Gordon. You know some of the other names. And I haven't watched any kind of racing since I was a kid. You know those names. Fuck, I saw a commercial in front of Constantine, for pete's sake, that was a marketer's wet dream. It was all animated, and it had 4 NASCAR drivers racing through these situations, and there were fucking logos EVERYWHERE. Nextel, Interstate Batteries, etc. The ad was for Coke, and yet it was cross-promoting NASCAR and all these other corporate sponsors and it was a whoring dream.

The NHL could learn a thing or two about promoting their sport from NASCAR.

And I'm from the South, from one of those red states, and I fucking HATE NASCAR. My brother, however, loves it, goes to races, etc.

NASCAR is boring. F1 is boring.

Watch some World Rally Championship racing and you'll understand why.

NASCAR works as a video game (pretty colors, interesting tactics if you are participating), but it fails as a spectator sport. After spending a weekend in Phoenix while there was a NASCAR race in town, I am convinced that A) I am totally out of step with a vast number of mouth breathing Americans (see also: Novembers 2004), and B) I couldn't be happier to not be in their number. What a bunch of maroons.

Watch WRC *highlights* you mean. Its not really a brilliant spectator sport, and the events themselves are time trials over long distances. You dont get to see much if watching live. Rallycross on the other hand... hmmmm, especially back in the day of Group B.

The best track racing these days is champ kart, and some of the lower numbered forumula's

I've never been able to get into rally very much, although I watch it from time to time.  Open wheelracing is my passion, however.  Righ's too, which is nice.   :-)

OMG, I just realized I'm a NASCAR dad.   This does not bode well.

  I like watching open wheel, Signe, but my god...after racing just hobby stocks for a couple years, I had the pleasure of repairing some of my own boo-boos as well as my dads. The number of suspension parts those guys must go through, and the work to get everything back square, makes me howl in anguish.
  Many a night in high school was spent in the wee hours of the morning doing anything and everything to pick up that extra tenth for the next weekend.

To sum up, the time and money scares me.

Any competitive endeavor that is not purely luck-based requires skill. But I don't think it takes athletic ability. My point was that there's something primal about watching a guy and saying "damn that is strong and can run fast." That's very different than "wow, that guy can take that corner well!"

I would also point out that more basic sports are easier to evaluate talent in. There are very few "average joes" who are not in the NBA but could be. Because you can spot the traits of an NBA player pretty easily. Even if you rule out a display of basketball ability. I don't think there are a lot of people that could be good at pro basketball and just don't realize it.

But, I would bet there are plenty of people like that for Nascar. If you were cut out to be an NBA you'd probably give yourself away with some overall athletic ability, height, quickness, etc. If you were cut out to be in Nascar you would...what? Be middle aged in average physical condition.

I have a problem with a lot of competitive sports that have a small pool feeding them. Whitewater rafting is a good example. I mean, who the fuck knows if they are good at whitewater rafting or not?

Could I be an NBA player? Nope. Could I be a sprinter or long jumper? Nope. Could I be a NASCAR driver? Maybe. What are the qualifications again?

Everyone has played basketball at least a bit in their life, or had the opportunity to, or done something somewhat related involving catching, jumping, running, etc. There is a huge swath of the population that has no exposure to auto racing in any form other than watching it.

That's why I think it's kind of lame overall. It's not the best of the best. It's the best of the people that happen to be competing.

I hate to defend Nascar here (again), but damn. Will you get it out of your head that it's only about driving around in circles all day? There are other ways to win besides speed or mere driving skill. For each individual track (oval as they may be), there's always a good number of technical factors to take into account, whether that be in identifying shift points, fuel strategy, etc. This is always a team effort.

And like I said earlier, as far as driving skills are concerned, there's an intimidation factor. Do you honestly think you have the "skills" to not be scared shitless and out of control when some crazy fuck slams into you the wall at 180mph? Are you even in good enough physical shape to endure that kind of speed and work for hours on end (without power steering)? Do you have the skills to drive that fast with a half dozen cars surrounding you the whole time?

If you don't like it, fine. Just say that. I'm not the biggest fan either. But when you say it doesn't take skill, it just shows how little thought you've actually put into it.

Yes.



Again, I did NOT SAY it doesn't take skill. It DOES take skill. But it takes a very specific type of skill that prevents it from being a true test of the best of the best.

Look at it this way: How good are you at football. You have some idea, right? Can you run? Can you catch? Can you throw? Are you big and tough?

Now, how good are you at golf. Unless you've played gold, do you have any idea? Are you athletic? Well, a lot of golfers aren't. Can you catch something or run fast? Well that's irrelevant. The only way to know if you are good at golf is to play golf, and the only way to get better at it is very directly by practicing.

EVERY single kid who took gym class has some idea if they have what it takes to be a pro football or basketball player. That means the guys who really are playing in the pros are damn good. There aren't many guys in the US who could be NBA players but just never realized it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who could be NASCAR racers and don't know it. I'm strong enough to be a NASCAR racer, I have endurance, and I have some balls. Beyond that, I have no idea, because the skill in NASCAR is escoteric compared to basketball.

I think if you could magically gather up the very best basketball players in the US, potential-wise, you would have a group that overlapped pretty significantly with the actual NBA. I don't think that is true of NASCAR.

Let me put it another way: I know for a fact that I could practice all I want and totally suck next to Allen Iverson. I have no idea if I could practice at NASCAR and be as good as the best NASCAR drivers.

So you are basically discounting skill sports? Anything that doesn't require intense physical conditioning baffles you? Golf, Billiards, Bowling, Racing, are all sports and they all have a very defined skill set in my book. You ask if you might be good at any of these without trying and go pro? I assure you unless you are a total idiot savant you would get your socks rolled up and down by the guys on the dirt tracks racing for peanuts. Just because you are ignorant of the sport, don't assume that talent is so easily hidden.

First off fuck you for making it a southern thing. :-D In fact the majority of drivers and races are moving north.
I absolutly hate NASCAR as an organization and sport. I'm from one of the towns that NASCAR has a track in and I tell you I was glad when one of the races went north, well west.
Nascar didnt get big untill the northerners and west coast gang got involved so again bugger off. :-D

I think NASCAR is popular because they can hold races in places that are too small to support a major team sport franchise.  It also gets people to identify with the individual drivers.  I think tickets are petty cheap as well, but I am not sure about that.  Plus a lot of people just plain get off on their car, and cars in general.  Also, the summer sport competition -- baseball -- is becoming less and less popular.

I can appreciate the strategy involves, but I just don't enjoy watching it.  Watching indy/formula 1 cars is much more exciting to me than watching NASCAR, but I can still only watch it for about 15 minutes, even when the other choices are bowling, golf and pool.  Different strokes.



The Super Bowl is usually the most watched TV program, period, so I doubt it.  Some Googling of US figures indicated that the D-500 got a 10.6 rating, representing 33.5 million viewers.  The Super Bowl had over 130 million viewers.  The NFL conference championships almost tripled the d-500's ratings, and average Monday Night games beat out the d-500, as did the World Series, the ALCS, and the college basketball and football championships.  The d-500 fell within the same ballpark as the NBA finals games [which I found pretty suprising], the Belmont horse race, and the major golf events.  It could be that there are a crapload of Canadiens and Mexicans watching NASCAR, I guess.

So, while the rednecks are clearly on the march, they have not yet overrun the gates.  Demographics are clearly on their side, though.

 Let me boil it down for ya Margalis...you couldn't. There.

 Nothing personal, normally I enjoy your posting and usually agree with your opinion, but in this case you are just flat ass wrong. Sorry.

People actually watch other people bowl and play pool on TV?  I'm not entirely sure I believe you.

People watch CURLING on TV. Barely-evolved monkies with self-importance complexes will watch just about anything.

I used to get curling and hurling confused.  Boy... are they different, though.  Hurling must be one of the wildest, nastiest sports I've ever seen.  Curling, however, can be accomplished by any decent housewife.

Margalis, no offense but you are wildly underestimating how hard it is to drive these cars.  You are going 182-200 MPH on tires with no tread. There is a reason they don't just stick any schmo into a NASCAR. You have to work your way up from sprints. Heck most of these guys have been driving competetively since they were 8.   It is very difficult to do and is easily on par with having the talent to play any other major league sport in the compartive sense to the rest of the population. They don't pay them millions of dollars if anyone can do it.

While I don't agree with Margolis fully, the fact that the children of great NASCAR racers tend to be good NASCAR racers suggests that exposure at an early age and financial support are not unimportant factors at become good. How many NBA or MLB family dynasties are there? Don't come back with the Mannings. They are the same generation.

Bonds, as much as I hate that. The Mannings, Archie et all, not just the two bros. Hell, according to this article (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7428580) 146 players in the NFL have had fathers that played before in that league.

Racing is about as important to me as Tropical salt errosion.  Just have no understanding why anyone watches it...

Eh.  Same for me, but for ANY sport.  For any sport or play, it's not that hard to enumerate what the outcomes are (ie, x yards gained, fumble, interception, etc).  It's not like there is almost anything unexpected in sports, because you know the outcome is going to be one of a handful of options.  Something like once a year something absolutely crazy (fight on the field, etc) will happen, but it's outside the rules of the game anyway so not so much that you're watching (in this case) for the game, but for the break from the game.  I feel no affiliation with mebers of the NFL, just because they name their corporate entity after a city I live in, or live within a hundred miles of.  Nor do I feel any affiliation with college athletes whose motivations are largely for a cheaper ride through college and/or a shot at big money after they graduate.

That would be somewhat different if I knew (personally) anyone involved - say, if my son goes into athletics, and far different if I were playing the game myself.  But as far as watching sports for entertainment?  Far as I'm concerned, football, baseball, etc are all on the same level as NASCAR.  Whether you're driving in a circle or marching back and forth on a field, it's the same thing.  There isn't much novelty in it.

But for some reason millions of people love it all, NASCAR included.  Good for them.

OK, let me repeat myself one MORE time.

Yes, it takes skill. It takes an escoteric skill that most people have no idea if they actually have or not.

I KNOW FOR A FACT that I cannot jump very high, or run super fast. I don't know for a fact that I can't, WITH PRACTICE, race a car. ALL SPORTS that rely on out-of-the-way skills have a very self-selecting group of participants.

A guy in Africa who owns nothing and has no equipment has a pretty good idea how good a sprinter he can be. Sprinting is a universal sport. Auto racing is not. EVERYONE at some point in their life has tried to run fast. Not everyone has tried to race a car, or go whitewater rafting, or do synchronized swimming, or bowling, or whatever.

Bowling is the same. Does it take skill? Yes. Are there people out there who could be great bowlers but don't know it? Of course! So no, I don't really care about bowling or bowlers either. I think there are a lot of people on earth that could be great bowlers who either don't know it or don't care. It's not a universal sport to any degree.

I connect with sports that I either like to participate in, or that I think are true best of the best because they take some universal skills.

No need to get touchy.   :-P

I get what you are saying now.

I grew up a racing kid, I thought watching races from the pits and knowing all the drivers was normal. My dad did stock racing in some local circuits back in the 60s and 70s, had to sell his cars off, unfortunately. Never could afford a modified, but he was working toward getting into those divisions when he got out of it.

My favorite to watch were the dirt tracks, who cares what's racing on it. All I know is most of the mud flew the other way ;)

As I got older, and NASCAR grew in popularity, dad would take me to all these big races, and honestly, I thought it sucked compared to the small tracks and concentrated intensity of the small circuits. Went to the Daytona 500 several times through the 70s and 80s, hated it every time. Meeting folks in the pits was cool, but the constant oval crap just got old for me. I understand better than most the physical and mental rigors involved, just not my thing. Rally style, on the other hand, is really cool. For a while my dad lived out by Watkins Glen and we'd catch races out there.

The reason those guys in the small circuits drove so fast? Get the race over and get to the bar.

Turns out there are actually 2 roadraces on the NASCAR circuit: Infineon Raceway (http://www.nascar.com/races/tracks/spr/index.html) and Watkins Glen International (http://www.nascar.com/races/tracks/wgi/index.html). I think they should try to race on more raceway than the standard oval shape. I wonder how much trouble roadraces gives the drivers when they're so used to drving in a left turn oval all the time.

Although,I'm not a huge fan of Nascar, I love Watkins Glen and pretty much enjoy any race there.  I have to say, I've never been to a live Nascar race anywhere.

Watkins Glen isn't the best for spectating in person. My memories is sort of "beer, bbq, beer, ZOOM CARS GO BY, beer, bbq..." You only see a small section of track. And I was too young for beer.

Talladega (sp?) is fun. Get someone with an RV and a lot of lawn chairs. Sit on top and let the good times roll! I remember taking swigs of HOT DAMN with three biker chicks while chasing it with PBR. Just one of the oddest moments of my life.

Being too young for beer doesn't affect the fun factor if you're close enough to the action.  You can get high off the fumes.

Watkins Glen - It's racing, only twisted!

I live relatively near Watkins Glen...  I hear radio commercials for it alot.  The above is their tagline.
They ran a series once that was 'helpful hints for drivers new to Watkins Glen'.
Helpful Hint #1... 'The Right-hand Turn'.

The right hand turn is nothing to be afraid of.  It works just like the left hand turn, except you must turn the wheel in the opposite direction.

They were great.

Alkiera