f13.net

My little guy is six months old now and I have ran into a bit of a problem, not necessarily with the baby either. I know that infants need lots of love and attention and I like to think that when he is in my care alone that I give my son as much as I have to offer. The problem I run into is the differences in how my wife and I approach giving him attention and love. We both work for our selves so we juggle our schedules around to avoid the cost of day care, so our son ends up spending large chunks of time alone with us individually. When I am the one at home with our son, I manage to take care of the various house chores, cleaning and what not while keeping our son happy, or at the very least I believe that I accomplish all of that stuff. The problem is that sometimes I come home and my wife is a frazzled mess on a large portion of her days. Nothing is done and often she needs me to take him right away to have a break. After delicate observation I have noticed that even though he is only six months old our son will cry intensely and loudly when ever he wants something from her, I am talking screaming and crying and the full tear compliment. I honestly believe after hearing it, that it is an early version of a temper tantrum that he throws for her. He has a different cry and mannerisms entirely when he is truly distressed or is hungry or needs a change. I never get that type of behavior from him. If i put him in his swing, or jumper, so that I can do the dishes, or other household duties he very rarely gives me any trouble. I do however roll him around and keep him with me while i do stuff. Often talking to him or interacting with him during the process.

The problem is I am sure that my wife is over doing it with the physical contact, she feels the need to hold him constantly, she never puts him down for anything and I believe he has come to expect that behavior from her. First, I have no idea how to counteract this training he is receiving and second, I have no idea how to convey these observations to my wife. My wife is one of the most loving caring people i have ever met, and often melts under any sort of criticism or perceived criticism. I am unsure of how to approach the whole situation so that my son will behave the same way for her as he does for me. It is very tough coming home to a frazzled wife who needs a break, especially when I cant identify with her because my experiences are totally different.

Anyone have any legitimate advice or are in a similar situation? I am all ears here.

Edit: I don't want to come off sounding like I am perfect, because I do not think so, I am sure I have a great deal to learn from my wife, and i trust her instincts. I just foresee this issue turning into a bigger problem down the road.

Sounds to me like you and your wife need to talk things out rather than seeking parenting advice.  The toughest thing about marriage is realizing the differences in parenting and knowing that the 'best' result often lives somewhere between the ideals of both parents.  Your answers will come from discussions with your wife and perhaps some couples counselling.  Not from this place.

This is both my personal and professional opinion as someone trained in pediatrics.  Note that I am not a child psychologist nor am I any kind of authority on early childhood development.

While I am the very last person who can give any advice at all on this situation (given my lack of empathy for living things and my disdain for childkin), I can say this. You have done a huge step already in identifying differences in your kid's reaction to each of you. Knowing that and tracing down the factors to that like you are already doing is the bulk of the work. Kudos.

Perhaps you could say something along the lines of how you notice how frazzled she's been and you want to help then offer her suggestions of how you act with your kid during a normal day that she might want to try during her time.

Sometimes kids have to cry.  At that age, so long as they're fed, kept warm with clothes, and have a clean diaper, they shouldn't be crying that much.  They may want attention, but that doesn't mean you have to hold them the entire time.  Pick 'em up, pat them on the head/back a little bit, a few words of affection, and put 'em back down.  Even with that, they will cry.

My advice; find all the episodes of Supernanny and watch them.  Lots of good shit about what happens to kids who don't get broken of having helicopter parents (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyjuC2xXa8), and the hard time those parents have because of the situation they've created.

Welcome to the difference between men and women.  More importantly, fathers and mothers.

Your wife needs to knock it off now.  It'll only lead to worse situations of smothering.  You need to understand how impossibly hard this is for her.  Like, withstanding torture hard.

If you don't sort it now, welcome to the boy being in your bed at six years old and you on the sofa.

I am a huge fan of daycare.  Consistency is a must with kids and I simply am not regimented enough to keep that level of consistency up for an extra 10 hours a day.  Plus it also helps socialize your kid.

I have daycare twins that get sick a whole lot, though. And that can be pretty scary for a new parent, luckily for me it was kids 3 and 4. My first two stayed at home with my ex for 4 years. They are very social (9 y/o daughter is VP of student council and my 8 y/o son has lot of friends). You can be plenty social on weekends and not expose them to daycare.

Don't expect her to change too much. Just like accept that you will be doing the discipline. Explain to her your observations once, watch her irrationally defend herself, and move along. Or have her kinda hide out and observe one day.

Ironwood has a good point though, my daughter slept with us until 4 cause I didn't squash it early. My son slept in the crib basically as soon as he could after that.

Your kids will get sick a lot the first year or two in daycare.  After that, their immune systems will amaze you. 

My Mrs had postnatal depression, so I'd cut your wife as much slack as possible just to avoid making things worse, her hormones will be all over the place.  I don't think there's a right answer, yeah the kid is likely to end up in your bed for years, but I've been through that and there's worse things in the world.

The amount that my friend's kid gets sick at day care is amazing.  High fevers, croup, pink eye, etc.  Turns out the day care they were taking him too was really awful. They had a couple of ladies working there that were being semi-abusive and neglectful of the kids and not paying any attention to basic sanitation. 

Luckily there was a really good day care with an open spot when the pulled him out of there. 

I'm not a great parent.  So, I'd be hesitant to give any advice.  You'll each have different ways of dealing with the kid.  We're having a semi-rough time at the moment with our transition to a toddler bed.  My son's taken to waking up every night around 1am to 4am and trotting into our room.  At that time I just have no stamina to get him back into his bed since it'll take a while, and any stern resistance from dad gets escalated to wailing for mom.  Setting a bad precedent, but man, I've got to get some sleep or my day's wrecked.  This is coming form a kid that almost never would wake up at night, and even if he did, the crib meant he wasn't going anywhere.

Honestly, if you can live with what you've got going, not every thing has to be ideal.  Since my wife travels a bit for work, I take care of my son in the evenings a lot by myself.  With just me, he barely ever cries and really only for bonking his head on something, which they are prone to do.  If mama's around, he'll go for a second opinion on really trivial crap like "please don't throw that at the TV".

Yes, do bear in mind that your wife may be insane at the moment.  If she's having a rocky road after the pregnancy and delivery, things could be weighing more heavily on her than usual.  See what you can do to make life easier for her; I've heard tales of new mothers having pretty bad depression up to a year after their kid's born.

Give your wife some more lovin (yah, especially the physical kind) and she'll tone it down with your kid.  You're at the 6-month mark so intimacy has likely been an issue yes?
Note:  taking advice from Ghambit is likely a terribad idea, but I must give my 2 cents.

edit: just as I posted this, kitsune kinda hit it on the head in a gentler manner

If anything, get them into daycare early.  As mentioned, they will get sick, but they'll benefit in the long run.  My nephew was never exposed to other kids until he two years old.  When he finally did go to day care, the combination of having his mother's semi-weak immune system and his own never having actually done anything resulted in constant sickness for him, leading to having ear-tubes surgically installed so that all the muck buildup would drain out proper and stop the constant illness.

YMMV, of course, but still, this shit can happen.

Here is a firebomb: daycare is for selfish twits, especially at 6 months old.  I know people think it is economically necessary - but most people do not make enough money after tax to cover the costs of daycare.  I will get attacked for this mostly by people rationalizing, but by some who truly have no choice.  I admit I have the luxury of an income that let's my wife stay at home.

Your baby needs to bond with you and you with him.  Your baby will be in pre-school soon enough and will learn to work with other kids then.  Daycare workers are not parents.  They do not give any child the appropriate attention.

You and your wife are going to have different views. They will be hardwired in each of you, thus hard to change.  Your child has already noticed the difference and is acting as he has been trained.  He knows you won't cave to crying and he knows your wife will.

I would recommend you and your wife take as much time together with the baby as you can.  She will see how he interacts with you.  It might sink in.  It might not.  Do not ever get mad at your wife about holding the baby too much since she is only doing what her instincts tell her.  You will only cause her more stress and make her feel completely isolated in her own home.

I have 3 kids (9,8,6).  My wife was incredibly attentive of #1.  To the point she would literally sleep on the floor next to his crib with her hand in the crib.  It took 4 years to break that one because my son would go bat shit crazy if she left the room before he fell asleep.  When I put him to bed without her, he just went to sleep.

Babies are like puppies. You can train them to behave the way you want IF you behave consistently.  This is not easy, but it works.  Make sure you are each feeding him on the same schedule.  Leave notes for each other about when he napped/pooped/ate.  It can be frustrating to expect your baby to nap at 2pm and then learn that he screamed in his crib for an hour because he already had a nap.  Same for trying to feed him when he is not hungry.  

When a baby starts crying, try some food first, then diaper, then quiet time (this does not mean throw him in the crib/playpen and leave).  If none of those work, he probably has some gas and you just need to hold him and bounce him.

Most of all, though, since you love the little bugger more than your own life (although as the man you probably don't quite yet.  Ity tends to happen once they walk and talk more) your instincts will guide you reasonably well.

Also, when it's nap time, invest in a white noise machine.  That shit will cancel out the other noises from the other rooms you're in and keep 'em quiet.

We are definitely in the bracket of not being able to afford day care, my business is home automation currently, and my wife is a licensed massage therapist. The economy here has really hurt both of us, both of our businesses rely on our communities having disposable income, and people with disposable income are getting scarce. Daycare costs would cripple us.

My only goal with this thread was to fish for some ideas or possibly some sentiment that I have overlooked. All to often I am overly quick and cold with my emotions and resolutions to situations i am dealing with. I figured some discussion and possibly some other points of view would help me wrap my brain around my issue and possibly respond to it more thought out than I usually do. I love my wife and  care deeply about the outcome of this first little hurdle. I want to make sure i take into account everything, that way I don't create any permanent damage.

I have no kids, but my parents seemed to enjoy scotch whiskey as a way to resolve issues.

Toothache? Rub some of that on it.
Headache? Dad has a glass of single malt and tells you to settle down.
Tantrum? Mom and Dad both have highballs and watch the show.

That resonates.  But of course that's what it's like over here anyway.

"You get the behavior you reward."  If screaming and crying gets an infant attention, they'll eventually try screaming and crying just for the attention, and that sets up a nasty little feedback loop (as you're discovering).  You have to train them (yes, train, at that point their intelligence and psychology is about equal to a pet) to only cry when they have a physical need or discomfort.  So they cry, you check for fever, dirty diaper, etc., and then put them down *and leave them for at least 30 minutes*.  Then do it again.

It will feel horrible, your wife may be hard to convince to follow through with it, but it's the only thing that works.  And since the cycle seems to be well along, it may take days of near-constant screaming/crying before your son finally learns that strategy doesn't work anymore.

Otherwise: Put the kid into day care (a good one, be wary of anyplace that isn't willing to let you see everywhere at an arbitrary time outside of naptime).  They'll do the hard part for you, and at least your wife will get a break before she goes insane.

--Dave

EDIT: One quick shortcut for eliminating bad daycares, especially if your locality doesn't license all of them: Are they certified to care for children in Foster Care?  CPS tends to have pretty strict sanitation and staffing requirements.

On a completely unrelated note, the CBC recently did a special claiming it's safe to shake your baby. :why_so_serious:

My wife and I had disconnection issues for the first four years after the baby was born.  I don't think post-partum was to blame, but the added stress of the baby on top of her already busy schedule put a damper on things.  The best advice I can give is to talk it out, even if it ends up in argument.  Humans are simply social creatures and we require that interactivity, especially from the person that is supposed to be our best friend.  Also, as mentioned, be intimate.  That goes a long way to helping the situation. 

We ended up going through counselling in year three or four over the disconnection between us.  The counselor basically told us that while the kid is obviously really important, the kid joined our already established family.  Because of this, the kid must be treated as "one priority level down" from our marriage.  Once that sunk in for both of us (read: it took awhile), the whole dynamic changed in the house and things got a lot better.  We had been living our lives around our kid, instead we needed to live our lives with our kid around us. 

In year two we put the baby in daycare.  It was expensive, but it was overall extremely positive.  I'm a fairly anti-social person, so I found it hard to take the kid to the park and chat it up with the other parents.  Add to it the fact that 95% of the people at the park are women with kids, and they tend to look at a grown man in the park during the day as a sociopath.  Anyways, daycare took care of that issue - she got socialized early enough that she just fit right in when school started.  I'm a big advocate of letting other people watch your kids; especially after the first year.  Even if it is only one or two days a week.  We had friends that didn't do daycare and when their kids enter into the school system, it was for all four kids a much rougher transition than our kid had.  I realize that's not hard scientific fact, but it made us feel pretty good.  At that young of an age, its hard to over-socialize.

Mahrin, Nebu and Ironwood said what I had to. 

You both need to talk, you need to realize it will be hard for her to let go and your son will continue with whatever behaviors are rewarded.

My daughter doesn't listen to her mother at all. Not typical hyperbole about teenagers, I mean absolutely never unless I'm home.  Then she hops-to as soon as I give a look. This is engrained from when she was an infant. I stressed and stressed that letting the daughter have her own way was only going to lead to tears and frustration.  It has, a lot and often.  Much frustration here.

She might have depression issues that are contributing, but only you guys (and probably just her) know for sure. It's still worth discussing with a professional.

Also: in addition to the (ha) health benefits; IIRC studies have shown Kids in Prescool/ daycare are more socially functional (particularly if an only child) and better able to adapt to change.  Kids who don't have to deal with the roughhousing, talking and sharing involved with other children until they're 5 and start kindergarten have a rough go.

After I read this in Nebu's post, I didn't even bother reading the rest of the thread. This is the best answer you'll find anywhere on the internet.

This is pretty much how it works.  Eventually my wife had to cut it out because my son was driving her nuts... really she was doing it to herself, per your observation.  My advice is to take it easy, don't get worried, and see if they can work it out between themselves.  It's not necessarily something you need to fix!  Every dad I have ever spoken to has confirmed that boys cry more when mom is around; even older kids will get hurt on a sport field and act fine until Mom shows up, then suddenly he's covered with egregious boo-boos.  Hakuna matata.

Ctrl+F "Cheddar"

Where's that guy? He's raised like 18 kids.

There is a much different bond between children and mothers.  I don't know if your little guy is breastfeeding, but that is a game changer.  You might as well accept it for a while and understand things will get better in 6-12 months.  You're probably also going through a period where he isn't sleeping that well and needs mom at night.  Really tincture of time is all you can really do with this one.  

Addendum:  Most little guys go through a big growth spurt at this age, which makes them very needy.  I thin you'll find that things are a LOT better in just 2-3 months with your wife being frazzled.  

One last addendum:  There are lots of good books on this subject.  Coming here for help is sort of like going to a bar for help with your alcoholism. 

I'm more of the opinion if you think something is wrong, stop it now, because it will get worse.  I've been pretty lucky, the only time my son ever wanted to sleep with us was when the power went out.

Also. Parenting Magazine. It has good ideas for a lot of this stuff.

No.

Yes.   :oh_i_see:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/85916/release_the_hounds.jpg)

raised or sired?

Something else to look into depending on your area (and it was a life saver for us) - baby playdates & mommy groups.   You can look - http://www.themommiesnetwork.org/ to see if there is a local group, or check around the neighborhood/area mailing lists, etc.   At 6 months, the babies will mostly just sorta ignore each other, but that's not who the playdate actually is for - it's for the moms (or the occasional dad) to basically have a safe space to go out and share adult company with people that are going through the same thing.

As for the rest - with the house work, etc. . .   that's pretty much normal.   A lot of it comes to the little things - if I need to get something done, I've got no qualms in throwing the kids together into the playroom while taking care of it.  The wife on the other hand is more likely to try and consistently actively engage with them and do crafts and play.  Obviously, there's some overlap in the middle, but that's where our tendencies are.

As for being held - they can be super clingy at times (boys especially), and sometimes you do just need to let them fuss it out and ignore it.  Which is rough, but you're going to have to go through that anyhow with sleep training.

Yeah, get your wife into a circle of social woman ASAP if she doesn't have one already.

Talking with a group of mums and multiple mums is the best way to find shit out and get your head out of the 'omg I can't do this, I don't know how, panic, weep, wail, run to husband' cycle.

This is good advice.  It helps a new mom hear what other moms are going through.  It normalizes expectations.

That is a great idea.  Eventually you both will realize that no one knows what they are doing.  This is fine, since being worried in the first place means you are a good parent.

Indeed.

Though usually there is at least one mum out there who has had 6 or 7 and she can calm your wife the fuck down and tell her not to be so fucking stupid.

I'm given to understand.

I'm not able to comment on all that woman shit.  It does help, though.  Also, some other moms are young and have only had one.

Also, some other mums are young and hot and may be a nice substitute for your wife while she recovers.

This is absolutely not true.  Over worrying parents are some of the worst there are.

This seems to be my lot in life here at F13 ...
1) Find interesting thread that I may be able to contribute to
2) Read thread, realize Ironwood has already said what I was going to say (and likely said it better)
3) Go back to lurking

Worse than people that release their kids into the streets while they score crack? Perspective, man.

I'm trying to be reassuring, you cockstab.

This is how reality shows start...and other devious shit  :why_so_serious:

I can shut up if you'd like*


*This is not true.  I can't.  I've tried it.

That doesn't mean that its a good idea to be either way.

Some geek with a lot of kids and a degree in developmental psych needs to write "Babies: The Missing Manual".

--Dave

I cannot stress this enough. This thread is a good example of this. Child-rearing is the single place where people are most inclined to universalize circumstances which are intensely particular and individualistic. Especially when you invite them to give advice.

I'm not immune, so I'll tell you what I would universalize about what I've learned through raising a kid: that kids have very distinctive individual personalities pretty much from the day they pop out of the womb. Their personalities come from somewhere, e.g., they're not randomized. They have some relationship with what they inherit from parents and their wider kin network. But they're also a new RNG version of those inheritances. What you do or don't do has some meaningful effect on their personality, but it is a mistake to assume that you can just turn a switch this way or that and get a completely new person or behavior in the bargain. My brother was determined from day 1 that he was going to have a very disciplined approach to childrearing, that there would be rules, and so on. Well, problem #1 is that he's not very disciplined, so you can't teach a kid to do something that you don't do. Problem #2 is that he's not disciplined for some deep reasons, and neither am I, and that's fine--but odds were high that his kids would have some of the same affordances. Which they do. It's taken him a long time to abandon his fixations, which were not benefitting his kids or him.

You're probably right about what you're seeing in terms of different behavior in relation to different people and different styles. The mistake might be to think that there is anything but gentle modification you can do as far as that goes, because the reasons why there's different behavior might have nothing to do with the more obvious or conscious practices of your wife (or yourself)--there could be very deep, powerful cues involved that you and she are not really able to do much about, and even if you could, changing those cues might not have the results you believe that they would have.

People who think that they can make everything go the way they want with an infant or toddler and therefore produce exactly the human being they believe they should produce, particularly when the ideal is something that neither parent really exemplifies, are in for more than a few rude awakening. Raising a kid is like a long afternoon of surfing: you get some great cowabunga moments where the waves are beautiful and you hit them just right, some wipeouts, some long periods where nothing is breaking. No surfer would ever imagine that they can make the waves break just the way that they plan for them to break, or stop them from coming when you're not ready.

Six months old is probably a little early for childcare imo, but don't discount the value of just one day a week for a break and early social exposure for the kid.  Also I see no mention of the grandparents anywhere, they aren't available at all?  My wife had post-natal depression with our first and after the more intensive part of the treatment my step-mother took my son one afternoon a week which was a real help, and helped make him close to my parents as well..and a lot cheaper than childcare.

Elena is polite, generous and kind.

 :grin:

Yeah, yeah, I know;  She probably gets that from her Mum. 

To be fair, he's not asking for legal advice, and a number of people here have kids. I don't see it as so different to simply asking other parents you know for advice or reflection on their own experiences. Remember Tale's dating thread? He met a 45 year old "life coach" at a speed dating session. You don't need so-called "professionals" or counselling for everything.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Owners-Manual-Instructions-Trouble-shooting/dp/1931686238/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327752337&sr=8-1

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411ibgNREIL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg)

What about angry programmers and drunken Scots? 

I see no reason that being one thing precludes being a caring or good parent as another.

1 word: routine. Keep it and keep it consistent for your child. They need to sleep at fixed times, eat at fixed times and play at fixed times.

If you and your wife are doing things differently in that area, then it could be a reason for a number of issues.

Unsub has made an excellent point. One so basic I'd forgotten it myself.  (Hey, it's been 7 years) 

Shit, routine applies just as equally at seven years. Kids subconsciously want structure because until they hit double digits, parents are their baseline for How Stuff Works. 15 minute warnings, checklists, allowance, all that stuff. Obviously that kind of thing doesn't apply to a 6 month old. But some structure can start that early.

Anywho, only have two kids and they're still pre-tween, but the best advice is just a summary of this thread:

• Talk it out. And remind each other what you talked out. Because after after six months into sporadic cat naps through nights of incessant and random screaming, it's easy to forget.
  
• Be social, particularly with other new families, Your inlaws are loving having a baby toy they can put away when they're done, but they're way the hell out of practice and likely did things very different. Still love my Dad's offhand "why you worrying about bottles, that's her job" comment. Someone missed the millenium shift. At the same time, avoid people who are prone to getting all on up in your shit with their viewpoint too. You want advice, not edicts, particularly because the most hardened opinions are often whitewashing their own insecurities anyway.
  
• Routine. See above. Very important. And to not forget. If that means you're leaving the mall at 2pm to rush home for the scheduled nap, all jealous that "everyone elses' kids" are asleep in their strollers in the goddamned food court of all places, too bad. That's just another aspect of keeping up with the (always fake) Jones. Don't worry about what you see around you too much. Your second kid will be different. Which leads to:
  
• Your second kid will be different. Subtley or overtly, whatever you did the first time around isn't going to work the same way the second. Thumb sucking or pacifiers. Bottles types if bottle fed. Sleeps through the night or not. Awesome in cars or not. Loves animals or not. This all starts right away. For example, my wife knew within three weeks that our second was gonna have a bad temper while our first was (and still is largely) easy going. Six years later she was spot on.
  

Most importantnly, know your limits. Both of you. Don't feel like you're throwing in the towel if you go the daycare route. Villages and communites have contributed to raising kids since forever. This goes for breastfeeding vs bottle feeding. The former works for some. But when it doesn't, Babies R Us it.

I don't need no fucking degree.  Main problem is it would be more of a pamphlet.  And full of venom.

Second Kid.

Lol.

You laugh now...

I'd rather cut it off.  Like in Overfiend.

This reminds me that I need to be fixed.

Yeah, I get to explore that wonderful option here in about 2 months or so...2nd one is due March 8th and I can't live through a 3rd. Still not sure the 2nd one won't kill me, but that ship has sailed.

The wife and I were considering it, I just hate fully burning that bridge.  I've seen too many people change their minds and have reversals. 

If it helps, it can be done to make reversals easier or virtually impossible.  I will spare everyone the details of what is done differently.

After my third, I went for the latter.  No regrets after 6 years.  At 43, I cannot imagine going through the 0-12 month phase again.  There are enough families around us with that "surprise" baby that I am doubly happy I made the call.  I also did it despite the wife's reservations at the time.  Number 3 was 4 months old and in the car when the wife dropped me off at the urologist office, crying her eyes out and asking me to reconsider.

She is completely happy I did it now, though.

The whole thing is actually way less painful than you'd expect, too.

This thread has plunged into the

 :ye_gods: zone.

Dude, it's f13.  What did you expect?  It's actually been pretty tame, considering it isn't the politics board.

In my opinion, a second child right now would get more :ye_gods: on the :ye_gods: scale than having my balls detached.  I mean, not shooting sperm has no downside.

Unless you're trying to conceive and nature has decided it isn't in the cards for you ;-)

Minus the 3 locals. After that, it's nothing :P

Even those hurt a lot less than the locals for my toe surgery, honestly.

OK, no downside for me personally. :oh_i_see:

I would rather crawl six miles through broken glass and rusty razor blades to get to my appointment to get fixed with no anesthetic rather than have a second child....

The best part was watching smoke rising from the vicinity of my genitals when the doc cauterized.   :why_so_serious:

I'd have 10 more kids if I could, the Mrs isn't keen on a 2nd though.

I really want a third, but we're getting old and I'm not super hip on having a kid with Downs Syndrome or some other problem.  The kids we've got are healthy, so we're probably going to stop at 2.

Two is definitely enough for us, we went through Hell to have them and I'm not going to do that again. The strain that it put on my marriage might not ever be completely erased.

I have the same sort of issues with the twins, they'll cry and beg to be held and fuss and follow her around. I'll tell her to go out for coffee or go to the basement and read, they'll fuss for a bit and then just sit and play. It's causing a HUGE amount of strife in my household as we're not exactly seeing eye to eye.

I'm definitely no great example of parenting, but this one seems pretty obvious to me. Routine is everything.

No, there is actually no downside as you say since we no longer even NEED sperm to conceive.  You need DNA, and that's it.  Lesbian couples have been flirting with this tech for a while now actually.
Hell, we dont even need wombs nowadays either.   Viable artificial ones (rather the ones we hear about) have been around for over 10 yrs.  Bush doctrine made them illegal past 2 weeks though.

Think of it.  Most highly evolved organisms procreate externally, they dont inject eachother with liquid (risky), carry around a 12lb sac for 9 months (riskier), and then manually "birth" it (riskier still).  The smarter/safer way is building a human selectively and then letting the machine carry it to term... whilst you continue to work, drink lattes, and have sex w/o worry.

Which highly evolved organisms are those that typically reproduce externally?

Reptiles.

And insects, birds, most fish... and on and on.  The older the organism the higher the chance they use eggs and external fertilization (not so much the latter though).
Mammals and humans in particular are the new kids on the block.  Our method of reproduction is considered barbaric in the natural scheme of things.

Aside from that, our young are amongst the most helpless in nature.  It's amazing we're not extinct actually.

I imagine there are probably reasons why complex mammals with enlarged brains have fairly helpless children and don't leave them lying around in eggs everywhere. The fact that we have technology that can take care of our unborn speaks to our prowess, not the flaws of the birthing system (which undeniably has drawbacks).

Ah yes, the horrors of instinction.  :why_so_serious:

What were you tripping on when the lizard told you this?

Industrial boat cleaning products should not be ingested or inhaled.  Handle with care.  If you do happen to get them in your eyes or mouth, please, do not post on F13.

Yet currently most of the world is dominated (and significantly so) by the apparently less evolutionarily fit mammals of which you speak. 

And when the 'pocyclypse comes we'll be the first to go down.

Which is standard for more evolved complex beings. We can't all be viruses.

Yeah, sorry Ghambit.  Your suggestion doesn't make a lot of sense.  Cockroaches aren't "highly evolved".  In fact, I don't think we can think of anything as highly evolved until they at least achieve spaceflight.

How did this thread get full of "Things were better when I was a kid" but scaled to geologic time?  The fuck?

Seriously?  You're seriously asking that in a thread here on F13?  Please tell me that's rhetorical, at least.

I don't have a relevant picture, but if I shake the can I might get something I can post off of.

In the meantime:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/85916/wizard.GIF)

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7351206/evil-agent-smith.jpg)

THERE IT IS

Hugo Weaving has funny teeth. 

Well duh.  He's British, isn'the.   :oh_i_see:

Half-elven, I thought.

He's half elf, half British, half Australian.  Or something like that.

And I didn't say bad teeth.  I said funny teeth. 

This thread took quite a turn since the last time I looked at it!

Ghost couldn't resist talking about teeth.

I was mostly needling Yegolev.  The thread needed some more anger.

Man, you wish you were on my anger-radar.  We've mostly banned the real troublemakers.  Mostly.

[whistles innocently]

And I was just thinking it had been too long since I had been able to unload my bile.  You took all my sparring partners away, dammit.

--Dave

Since I never venture into Politics I always find the post-ban search for why very amusing.

I certainly find this place much more amusing since I've abandoned the Politics section.

I pop into Politics to lurk now and again. It's total  :popcorn: !

The Bene Tleilax disagree.  Turning the human into the tank is obviously the way to go.

They came at night, right ?

It's really not, unless you enjoy reading Morat's wall-of-text treatises on various, I mean all, subjects.   :awesome_for_real:

Next time I'm in Glasgow, you're explaining your jokes to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsx2vdn7gpY

You can turn your card in at the door.

Yeah, I seriously thought that's what you were angling for with that line.

South Park did an episode once that did that a lot.  It made me chuckle.

I have (had?) a copy of this. I wish I'd read it earlier as it's far more useful than I suspected.

Yep, I'm a doofus IRL.  I have the Alien nine-disc box and no excuses.

This, don't do this.

Edit by Trippy: for the love of...spoiler that next time

This is why the terrorists hate America (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABzMAuI1vj0)

I hate the fact I can recognize toddlers and tiaras (the wife does love herself a good train wreck)

 :ye_gods:

The sheer  :uhrr: of that picture actually summoned me to this thread. I've not read it since page 1.

Seriously, WTF have we done to the world to produce that? I.. I... I just... oh god, we're doomed as a species aren't we?

Exactly as doomed as we were when people said the same thing ~3,000 years ago in China.   :wink:

That's my state folks! YEEEEAH!

That woman's chins have chins. It's like Gabriel Iglesias put on makeup and a wig.

The danger of mainlining burgers.


Did you watch the video? It gets worse.

I'm not brave enough.  :sad:

There's no shame in not wanting to stare at a trainwreck

I am oddly conflicted, on the one hand I find the entire toddlers and tiaras concept completely revolting and yet on the other hand my 6 year old's princess makeover at the bippity boppity boutique was the high lite of our Disney World trip.  Maybe the saving grace here is that it wasn't a competition?

I am sure the saving grace here is that your daughter did not look like a harlot 5 seconds away from being butchered by Jack the Ripper in a dark alley ?

Did you force feed her a cocktail of Red Bull and Mountain Dew and then make her parade up and down in front of a panel of judges?

SPECIAL JUICE!

I am ashamed to admit there were abundant quantities of glitter and lip gloss (and a tiara).

It's WDW the sugar level was on insane and she did get paraded through the store in a fur cape.  She was also chosen to undergo her princess transformation in the super pimped out store front window display area.

Well, just so long as you don't make a habit of it. Also not berating the kid for not being good enough when they don't act up enough.

Also, say no to pageant crack kids.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/85916/killitwithfire.gif)

I watched it. I'm with Yegolev.

I assume she wanted to do this? And it's probably just a one-off thing? I wouldn't worry too much about it.

We gonna need a bigger fire...

(http://modernsurvivalonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/us_nuke.jpg)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ws-AiMI62cI/Tvdhorla6DI/AAAAAAAAA3Q/h3UQwDZ_mPQ/s1600/Alderaan+explosion.jpg)

There's nothing wrong with a little girl wanting to be a princess and desiring attention.

There's a lot wrong with pageants.

Yeah, most little girls goe through the princess stage where they dress in random accessories that don't go together. Tiara, feather boa, tutu and flip flops to go to the grocery store? You bet!

Pageants are just...if there isn't already a problem with the pageants, anybody who judges or attends one should be put on a federal watch list.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/85916/cool_guys_dont_look_at_explosions.jpg)

Warrior Princess is a personal favorite.

Who'd have thought that.  :grin:

Behold!  The return of Honey Boo Boo Child!

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/gotta-watch-wild-antics-on-toddlers-and-tiaras/?hpt=hp_c2

 :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods:

Oh Jesus...fuck...they...they're giving her her own FUCKING MINI-SERIES! (http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/honey-boo-boo-starring-in-toddlers--tiaras-spinoff-2012315)

 :uhrr: :ye_gods: :mob: :facepalm: :angryfist: :argh: :tantrum: :cry2:

(http://db.tt/DDirHkQL)

The highlight of the article was this:

This won't reflect well on my state.

Nor will the KKKs attempt to adopt a highway in N. Ga.

As long as they don't get to name said road, shouldn't be a big deal.  :why_so_serious:

White Trash picking up Trash? They should strike it down on cannibalism grounds.