f13.net

Also, thank god this patch was really small or done differently, no bittorrent.

Seal of the Crusader was fixed, and the whining has just begun. The paladin forum was locked or taken down temporarily from what I can tell.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=1408039&P=1

Best Quote, from an Orc Character:

This is not a content patch. Don't worry, you'll be using the bittorent ripoff again soon. ;)


As for Paladins... meh, just use righteusness with judged crusader and judge the righteousness when judgement cools down. Almost the same damage as pre-fixed SotC, but for far more mana. I also thought this change would suck the balls when I heard of it, but then I tried out the above combo on my new paladin (who is still too boring and thus on hold). All this did was make SotC largely useless. I like how the PVP crowd are crowing over this this fix despite the fact that most paladins rely on SoC for PVP.

"Soon" is such a relative word with Blizzard.  I'm not holding my breath on another big content update before Shadowbane has another expansion pack.

The Paladin "fix" was definitely more than I bargained for.  For the same mob I was fighting on Monday, I am now hitting it for 30 dmg less per swing.  At level 51, that's a ton more whacks I have to sit through to make it dead.  That requires me to now buff myself twice during a fight rather than once.  That requires that I use more mana, etc, etc.

Paladins are still hard to kill and will probably wear down any other class one on one at even level, but all this "fix" did for me is make combat that much more boring or more reliant on another class to help with the DPS because I certainly do not have it.  At 51 with all the best equipment that is sensibly obtained at my level I am only doing around 60 dps for even level mobs.

Perhaps other players with other classes can chime in on if that sounds low or not, but from what I've read it is.  It was taking me about 60 seconds to take down just one even level mob last night.  Just think about that....  Yes, I was not even close to dieing during all that, but with the number of kills that need to be racked up for quests and leveling, that is painfully slow.

Paladins are still uber, but I think you'll see less of them being played just from the extreme boredom.

That's pretty average for a warrior, FYI. Even moreso for a protection specced warrior like myself.

Interesting.  That kind of supports my thought that they should have gone after raising the DPS of the Warrior some way rather than decreasing the Paladin's.  Both classes lack range (moreso the Pally,) and the magic classes can bomb a much higher DPS than we can AFAIK.

Whatever, like I said even with the same DPS of the Warrior, we get to heal, cure, res, etc.  Pally's are still above the bottom of the barrel so it is probably all good.  I need to do some more experimenting to see the full extent of the "fix."

Paladins did to much damage, with way to much defence. It made them an unballanced class. Big time. Did this "fix" go to far? That remains to be seen, but something needed to be done.

On my server, probably 80% of human character where paladins. Most large pvp fights consisted of about 30-45% paladins. Ouch.

From a purely PvE advancement perspective, the slow kill rate of Paladins, Priests, Druids and Warriors slows them down, but the higher kill rate of Hunters and Warlocks is mitigated by their pets sapping xp from the kill. Rogues, Shamen and Mages level at an alarming rate however. Mages move insanely fast if you know the AoE places.

When and where? Any AoE I try at my current level gets me turned into a greasespot in a big hurry (or leaves me running away with my mana shield on, which is quite undigniified).

Heh, from my experience the hunters and warlocks still level up at quite a nice clip.  The first 60's on my server were exclusively hunters and warlocks.  Even if they do get a chunk tithed to their pet, having nice DPS and the ability to take multiple mobs ease seems to allow them to kill at a staggering rate.  I've seen hunters pull off some solo crap that I have no prayer of being able to do.

Shaman, is pretty damn easy to level though. We can take two mobs our level with ease.  We can heal, cure poison and disease, have a travel form at 20, tank well enough once you get chain, and have an entire talent tree that is  solo pve slanted.

I have no pitty for paladins.  If playing on GODMODE is boring, reroll to something with teeth and at least the possibility dieing when 8 players are beating on you at the same time. 

They don't need to wait for a group at any level, and are highly popular among catasses. Play one past newb levels. They level nowhere near as fast as rogues or mages. Not that I'm complaining. But feel free to call for hunter nerfs, I'm almost done, and will be playing rogue and mage more.

Where did I call for hunter nerfs? You're taking this all a bit personally (other topic  too).   Nerfing someone's soloing ability would seem rather pointless.  Hunters seem to fit in pretty well with the balance currently in the game. I hear they need some abilities fixed, but I wouldn't mind them staying about where they are on the power curve.   My friend has a hunter, it's 42 and he barely even plays the thing.  But, I'll have to ask him tonight how the hunter plays out leveling v. his shaman.

Edit: On the subject of "on the chopping block" classes, I play two that will probably get hit pretty hard: shaman and rogue.  Shaman I can see why people hate.  Nothing like a class that has an answer for anything.    Rogue though, I don't get the hate.  It seems like most competent players would have a way to be rogues.

AoE guide on the WoW forums. (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=48467&p=1&tmp=1#post48467)

My mage is now L36 with just over 2days played.  I have a bud that follows me around with his L44 druid and heals me while I pull entire camps of murloc's and AE them to death.

A good spot to start doing it at L29 is the Murloc Camps W of Southshore (in Hillsbrad).  Even though Hillsbrad is a heavy PvP zone, this area is left alone.  After that (L36) move yourself to the Mirkfin camps in Dustshallow Marsh.

Wow, nice link. I never thought about how to take advantage of the AE spells. I am only 24th level, so I don't have a lot of the stuff I will need to do it effectively, but now I know what to look for. Cool!

I think alot of the hate from rogues comes from stunlock strategies. Personally I don't give a toss because if you're stunning me you wont kill me before my brother rips you a new one, but it would be HIGHLY annoying if solo. I've seen gank videos where the rogue would attack people and they'd be at 1/3 of their life before they could do anything most of the time. The other times they either died or got lucky on resists. That's gotta suck bigtime. The other complaint is from fools who don't realise that Stam > All else on a PVP server regardless of class and almost go down in a single ambush. Or they get ambushed while fighting a mob and the "I lost to a rogue" event doesn't attach the fact that you would have died to anyone being so lame.

If I was blizz I'd nerf the stunlock strategy and then make it so that SS can actually fricken miss and leave rogues alone besides fixing bugs.

I'd be comfortable putting cheap shot and kidney shot on the same timer. That'd minimize a lot of the never-ending stream of stun. But really, stunlock isn't that hot, since you're wasting all your energy on stuns instead of damage. I can get people to 1/4 health in one round of combo point buildup... which is maybe 2-3 seconds (not exactly a lot of time to react to). Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike. That, I think, is why there's so much hate.

Yeah, by far the biggest annoyance with stunlock is the inability to do anything for a while. It really is something that should never be possible. As much as I like my druid's root I must say that it is also something that should have some kind of timer. Same with warlock fear and secude. I know these classes tend to rely on fear/root/seduce kiting, but it's something that should never be factored into their balance. Give them the occasional out on a timer, then give them the ability to win with THAT.

I don't have a lot of hate for Warlocks or Rogues, especially when it comes to PvP. Sure, they solo tons better than my Warrior, but I would expect that. In PvP though, things even out a lot. I would consistently rape Warlocks, especially after I got Intercept. Rogues were a bit more tricky and up to luck really. I could beat rogues, but it was tons more difficult. Basically, it came down to who got the jump on who, and if my/their specials land.

I had tons of hate for Paladins....more dmg, survivability, utility...

And hunters....besides their being FotM, I just thought they were a bit over-powered, especially the pets...I could still beat them handily in PvP usually, though kiting makes it a Lot harder.

How did you get past chain fear?

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see it's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

He is the Kwisatz Haderach?

Oh man, if that's what I have to do, I suppose I won't be defeating any warlocks.

I saw a lvl 52 paladin beat a lv 59 rogue last night in a duel.  As I suspected, the "fix" didn't really affect PvP much.  It just made PvE even slower.

I worked on my plagueland quests some and found that killing was slower, but it really came to needing to drink more often for mana than anything.

If you had hate for Paladins before, it won't go away with this patch.

Warriors have some immune fear abilites.  Berserker Rage is 10 sec immunity on a 30 sec timer.  Recklessness is 15 secs on a 30 minute timer.  And Death Wish is something like 30 secs on a 3 minute timer, but it's a talent deep in the fury tree and I've never had it. And if the warrior is undead, there's Will of the Forsaken too. Recklessness just destroys Warlocks in my experience (unless they recognize what's happening and successfully run away for its duration), but with it's super long timer they'll probably be back and fearing you again long before it returns.

You might be right, there. Because not only the victims hate it, but also the better rogues. Reminds me of UO bank thieves. I played a thief and despised the n00b bitches, along with everyone but the bank thief himself, and maybe his exploit partner.
One thing I think might need a nerf if it catches on is that engineering headpiece that has a 30 second sap on it. WoW needs a bit more rock/paper/scissor, it's kinda rock/rock/paper imo.

Help me out here. How does one get up to 5 combo points without some Sinister Strike mashing?

Does the stunlock hate mean that ambush/backstab are the only non-noob ways to go?

If you read the official rogue boards (class boards are tollerable for the most part), this is a hot topic for debate.   It's all about the combat rogues (combat/assn build and sword use(some dagger)) v. ambush rogues (subtl/assn and dagger).   Ambush rogues like to call the combat rogues lazy button mashers while the combat rogues like to call the ambush rogues one trick ponies.   Both builds rely on the use of cold blood while the ambush rogues are also likely to have preparation.  Honestly, whether you lead with cheap shot, hit SS, 3 times, and then cold blood/evis are you a worse person than the ambush, ss x 4 or circle/jump spin backstab x 4, cold blood/evis person?    Combat rogues say they never lose to ambush rogues, ambush rogues say they laugh anytime they see a combat rogue.  It's all kind of pathetic with neither side posting concrete numbers on DPS nor is there any sort of definitive view one way or another on their pvp viablility.

Ambush is heavily dependent on gear.  Unless you have a good and slow (this is important) dagger, you will not be very effective going down this path.  Finding a good dps dagger that isn't 1.5 speed isn't an easy task until you're around 60 and can solo brs bar area for the barman shanker.

Combat is a lot easier to play because you don't have to worry a lot about positioning. SS doesn't require any position to hit.  Most combat rogues also tend to use cheap shot which means you don't have to manuever to the back.  Combat is also probably more efficient for solo pve since you'll be increasing your non-burst DPS and overall survivability.  Plus, as a sword rogue there's some good options out there with the Thrash blade available in your early 50's. 

With my rogue I'll be more of a 3 tree hybrid until I get a decent main hand dagger.  Then I'll likely go to more of an ambush build but one with 8 points in the combat tree.  Having preparation and cold blood will be very nice.  Two garunteed crits, two uses of evasion/sprint/vanish, and two shots of thistle tea.  MMMMMM.   Of course, I may end up liking my hybrid enough to keep.  I'm somewhat of a lazy bastard and don't like to run around strafing like I fell down the rabbit hole on the way to FPSland.  I probably would have been better served to play more Dark Age where all melee seemed to be about positional strikes.

Now on stunlock... it's not a combat rogue exclusive.  Ambush rogues can do it if they want. Just that approach isn't very practical in group PVP.  You want to dish out fast damage, not engage an enemy for a long time.  It can be useful though if you can single out a caster or weaker enemy, but if someone else catches on, you likely won't have time to finish. 

Forgive me- it is early, and I am off caffeine for the time being. Can you remind me why the speed of the dagger matters? I know I have heard the explanation, but it escapes my foggy head at the present.

Not sure if this is what he means from a rogue perspective, but as a warrior, some of my abilities rely on weapon damage + (some bonus). This means that a slow weapon of the same DPS would have higher base damage, thus doing more damage.

You know the additional DPS you get for your attack power? That's added scaled to speed.  Say you get 50 extra DPS from your attack power and you've got 2 daggers with similar DSP but with differing swing speeds. 

If you have a 1.5 speed dagger, that's going to add 75 damage per swing.  If you have a 2.0 speed dagger, that additional damage is 100.  So, you slower dagger is going to end up having a larger damage range (you'll see this in your tool tip).   This damage range is used when calculating the damage for your ambush and backstab.  Since these abilities are not dependent on weapon speed (own timers) it's best to have a slower main hand weapon.  And also naturally, the slower weapon comes with a bigger damage range if the DPS is comparable.   But also, based on the above, a weapon that has the same damage range but a different DPS due to being slower, will stil be better for ambushes/backstabs.

It's still best to go pure DPS offhand. Speed preferrible so you can get more poison applications.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. TY for the explanations.

I'll come back to WoW when they nerf the holy hell out of all shaman melee buffs.  How you can get off saying that SoC was overpowering but Windfury/Flurry is just fine?

I've fought many shaman that outdamaged any warrior and were almost up there w/ rogues in melee alone and when you add in shocks or god forbid insta cast lightning jesus the burst dps is stupid.

*shrug* pld healing or melee needed a nerf, no doubt about it, but I'm still waiting for all the racials but undead to get a boost and those shaman nerfs, any year now.

Gouge adds combo points, stuns them and sets you up for a free backstab. So Ambush>Backstab>Gouge>Backstab, 4 or 5 combo points. No SS.

Rasix sums it up pretty well, actually. I lean towards the "sword rogues are lame" side of the argument, but it's really just playing style and preferences. Backstab builds load up tons of damage right away, and then you're kind of left hanging. Sword builds require a little less dexterity or quick-thinking during the fight IMO, and you get a higher sustainable DPS throughout. Like anything, there's a situation for everything. So I carry around both swords and daggers, and switch them around as needed. Daggers/ambush are my bread and butter though.

Weapon speed also helps with poisons. More hits, higher chance of them landing. Two daggers with deadly poison (the stackable DOT poison) are death.


That's exactly my build. Working my up to cold blood now... but it's tasty. Casters go down in like three good hits. Double vanish and evasion makes it a lot easier to destroy warriors and shamans.

I <3 Rogues

Ok... no more hijacking the thread about rogues. Back to your regularly scheduled paladin hate. I need to find some of the guys to duel. Looks like fun.

I try to do the same, but tend to lean towards using cheapshot -> slice 'n' dice -> SS's - > Eviserate. I have maces, swords and daggers all as close to maxxed for my level as possible, but again, tend to lean more to using maces/swords since, as a human, I have bonuses to them.

Also depends if I'm grouped and with whom for what strategy I use. I think that's why I like playing the rogue so much, there's a lot of ways to approach the different situations and if I get bored playing one way, I'll switch to something slightly different.

It might not be the best and fastest way to level, but I fuck around wasting time as it is so I'm not too worried about it (7 days /played, only lvl 38)

I disagree with a lot of the stuff you said there Ras. I myself am a combat rogue, with a 15/31/5 build, and I do pretty damn well in PVP/PVE. With lots of agi gear and the crit talant in assassination I have a 25% chance to crit. I do not have cold blood. I use blade fury and adrenaline rush from the combat tree along with ss and evis.

I would argue against splitting trees to much, there are some skills that are to good to pass up. If you are going to use a dagger, you need cold blood, casue crits are VERY important. Then you should also get improved sap, which is KEY for assassin rogues, casue you can sap some one from any side, and stay in stealth, that way while they are sapped, you can line up your ambush much easer. Also with assassin/sub spec you can some times hit ambush for 3 combo points, hit gouge for 1, then backstab for 1, then 5 point cold blood evis, all in about 4 seconds. its a REALLY nasty combo.

I have spent a LOT of time talking with rogues of different builds, and they all agree that if you split tress to much you will gimp yourself a little. I think my build is about as split as you ever want to go. I had a hybrid 3 tree build for a little while, it worked great up to about lvl 45 or so, but after that, the lack of high end talants starts to really hurt.

Combat rogues are much more geared to take out other melee classes, while assassin rogues are better at soft targets.

Feel free to PM me if you want to hop on my vent server and talk about rogue speccs some time.

You've got to be kidding me.  If I stand toe to toe with any warrior or rogue or fuck, even a paladin, I'll get my ass handed to me in short order as long as they're not a complete fucking moron.  I only charge either of them for melee when I'm part of a larger attacking force. 

Any shaman that's building himself up flurry/windfurry is still going to get his ass kicked in melee and is going to be gimping himself when it comes to fighting casters or actually trying to be competitive with pure meleers or druids.   Instacast lightning is coming from nature's swiftness and that's 21 points in restoration (which they should get anyways) and it's going to be on a 3 minute timer.  Also any shaman that goes for a shock/ns/cl combo is going to be blowing his mana wad and get destroyed by the next person that engages.   Windfurry is just so highly sporadic that it's not something you overly rely on, but when it hits the results can be fantastic.   

I'm not sure what you can really nerf on a shaman.  I suppose you could take it to task with the melee buffs, but we're not strong enough casters to make up for it (lowering mana costs would help, it'd make it more of a rebalance than a nerf).   You can nerf some totems, but I'm not sure what you can do more to them (they're 5 hitpoints, ladies).  You can nerf damage on shocks but they're already some of the most mana inefficient spells we have.   Something sensible might be to lower the snare time on frostshock to something less than the cooldown time.

I dunno, I don't find myself overly powerful.  The class just feels.. right.   A well played anyone can take me down from experience, but a bad player is just going to get humiliated in short order against a shaman.

Well, what I was posting was mostly to illustrate the two main rogue camp's debate.  I don't think they're the only way to go as you're showing that the a more combat oriented rogue without heavy assassination is also viable.  I don't think I'd ever pass up cold blood though.  A crit shot eviscerate is just fucking nasty damage.  It would be nice to have that my disposal whenever I wanted.  Of course, I have no actual experience (pvp) with this, this is all what I've read and played out in my mind.  Like playing my shaman, I could end up coming to a different conclusion.  Early with my shaman I was more of a melee shaman then realize that would just be a nice way to get mauled later on.


My build is going to be based upon getting 2 abilities, preparation and cold blood.  8 points in the middle for improved gouge, backstab and improved SS.  There's some wiggle room in this build.  I'll have to think more about how I want to adjust it based on actual experience with it.  Right now it's a 22/8/21 (well, when I get there).  I don't like really one tree heavy specs in any character I've played.  Being more balanced has really worked out well for my shaman (rest/ele with 10 in enhance).

Anyhow, here's what my current planned ambush build is. I like it because it's flexible and there's some points to play around with in subtlety.  I think assassination and combat are really where I like them.

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception   Rank 5
Camouflage   Rank 5
Opportunity   Rank 5
Initiative   Rank 5
Improved Ambush   Rank 1
Preparation   Rank 1
Subtlety Total:   22
Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge   Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Improved Backstab   Rank 3
Combat Total:   8
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 1
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:


With mine I want to be able to take down the soft targets fast but also have some added flexibility.    Maybe I'll hop on the vent server, but again, must of my speculation is merely that.  I'm primarily a shaman and have pvp'd with that character exclusively.   Not sure what I have practically to add to the conversation.

Sorry for geeking out a tad too much in this thread. Pallies suck.

Rasix I can only speak from my experiences which involve wearing cloth...

But let me tell you, calling Windfury + Flurry sporadic is just horseshit imo, thats the excuse all shaman give me for the rediculous dmg output I can post ss after ss of.   Now I might be bitter because purge > priests and I was uber rigged vrs any other class (pld included) in a 1v1 fight.  But I'm going to keep bitching because its fun and it makes me feel good.  I'd like to meet a mana efficient class in WoW untill the current spirit mana regen rule is re-worked EVERYONE runs out of mp its just a question of how fast and what can you do when its gone?

Aimed shots critting for 1600+ = rare
Cold Blood evis critting for 900+ = automatic almost
WF + Flurry shaman dealing great melee dmg comprable to a warrrior if not a rogue (oh and did I mention shock spells are incredible?) = 50/50 AT WORST, I refuse to give you less then that, and frankly on Archimonde it was more like 75/25 from my experiences.

Now any time your not setting out to test this sort of thing my speculation is worth about as much as a Blizzard rep saying "information has been forwarded to the dev team" but I still find it rediculous that people act like the Palladin melee damage was so unheard of when Shaman most definately do just as much and it comes in burst form which is 20 times more usefull then sustained dps in pvp.

Now nobody likes the class that is the "paper" to their "rock" but I have seen shaman put some rediculous freaking numbers on me.  Of course I'm off the opinion the weakness of blizzard's class balance comes from the fact that crits are like EVERYTHING in pvp... 

I'm done w/ my rant, just come on, next your going to tell me that healing wave is useless, I'll trade you heal or great heal for it...    :roll:

Healing wave kinda sucks unless you have nature's swiftness. With it, it's an instant 1500 heal that crits for well over 2200. 

Lesser healing wave is golden though.  75% of not being interupted, 1.5 sec cast time and will crit for over 1500. 

And yah, Windfurry on a cloth caster is brutal.  I think somehow the crit rate on windfurry is a bit broken, because quite often I'll crit or double crit on it.  But even if not, the two attacks are coming in with some massive attack power added on.  Add on that I can interupt a caster with earth shock, absorb a spell with grounding totem, purge their buffs, etc.  A one on one situation is not something a cloth wearer generally wants to get in with me.

I'm beginning to feel that if DE's were able to become Paladins, Rasix would piss blood.

Nerf-retaliation threads do not really jibe with the spirit of this board and community. Paladins got what everyone knew was coming. I don't see how Shaman or rogue balancing entered the picture

It stings, yes, but resist the urge to lash out at other classes.

Toast is right. You don't want to be labeled fanbois? Do you?

HEAVEN FORBID

I've tried all sorts of different builds but found that:

Cold Blood:  Being able to control when to unleash 1500 damage is key to pvp.
Imp Sap:  Awesome skill for PvE.  Really helps out groups and lets you feel like something other than damagebotsupreme.  For PvP I've found the skill to be excellent to draw masses of people away from your retreating troops.  I like to imagine the chat window when the priest gets sapped and everyone runs back to find out what the hell is going on.
Preperation:  I was fine as a rogue when I didn't have it.  But this coupled with the skill that reduces your timers makes you much more versatile.

I mainly use cheapshot in group PvP because there's an element of lag that prevents me from landing ambushes reliably.  3 combo points from CB, ss, and drop a CB Evis and then vanish and repeat and you can kill anyone you want pretty quick.

Watch out for priests though, insta fear = death for a rogue.

This was the last time (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=425.msg7746#msg7746) fanbois invaded f13. I was but ONE of the people crucifying them. Sure, WoW is already out, but same story, blah blah blah.

Sweet baby Jesus, I had forgotten what a True Believer Preston sounded like. And then admits on the 2nd page that he has never played it. Heh.

Big nasty 2hders, Charge/Intercept, Beserk, and Shield Bash (using CosmosUI for quick gear swapping really helps). Also, I was an Arms warrior, with (I believe) maxed-out criticals and maxed-out Gouge (or whatever the warrior DoT was). Warlocks and Rogues have paltry  HP and AC.

You know, we could easily throw this back at everyone over the perenial hardon some of you have for CoH. 

Really, if you don't like the game, you don't have to read this forum.

It'd be terrible to have "fanbois" here (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=2033.0)

Arguing against a system that I've BOUGHT and beaten over 80% of it's releases is a little different. I've bought my right to bitch and moan. And if the PSP turns out to be total shite, I'll bitch and moan about that too. Probably even more considering it costs 65% more - for the system alone.

Que?

Puerdo ir al Bano, Por Favor?

Hey I liked WoW enough to level to 54 (I dont even play on weekends so thats an accomplishment in my book).  I haven't been able to stand a level based game enough to get past 40 prior (AO - played at release, was a pistol adv | EQ - played on e'ci 2 yrs in, played a shaman, Lake of Ill Omen = quit, DAOC - I played a blademaster, nuff said).

So yeah I like WoW, the way they tricked me (because I wanted to believe) into thinking they would have a true pvp system has hurt my feelings. But I'll get over it and go back eventually for sure.

I just get confused when people say "oh yeah, pld's now there was a class that needed a nerf" and yet shaman run around critting me 4 times in 3 weapon swings and casting the best insta nukes in the game.  I saw the pld nerf as blizzard saying hybrid classes should do less melee dmg, we're not going to touch their spells or their armor but they are all going to do more druid level damage in melee.  Then I looked at my ss's of WF+Flurry pain, then I thought about it, then I said "wtf" and posted.

I not fanboi or anti w/ WoW to my understanding of the terms.  I accept the reality that its the most well made persistent world, but it only does well the things they bothered to try. In that department Blizzard failed to take even a tiny step outside the box.  If anything they did things the american way and just made the EQ clone even more idiot proof...

The Paladin nerf (if it was a nerf, they say it's a bug fix but I don't care enough to decide what I think) wasn't an indication that they want hybrids to do less damage. Paladins are the defencive hybrid, shamans are the offencive hybrid. Druids are the middle-of-the-road hybrid I guess.

Also, don't ever base nerf calls on 1v1 battles. The classes are horribly, horribly imbalanced in 1v1 PVP and Blizzard knows it. This is why they supposedly have a policy that they will not balance for 1v1 PVP which is a damn good idea IMO because it's just too hard to balance 1v1 PVP and not fuck with group-based PvE in a big way. Shamans for instance are very close to an anti-caster, priests in particular have alot of trouble with them. Alot of Paladin nerfs came from warriors, rogues, and healers. The fact is that Paladins are basically melee killers. You can beat them, but they really have the advantage. As for healers they bitch because paladins last forever and can't finish the fight either so the fights last forever. Then the whole free horse and everybody-else-is-doing-it sets their mind afire for nerf calls.

Personally the only way I've found to beat Paladins is to fear them out of the arena. In reality they have no real way to combat it. I've yet to meet a paladin that can kill me fast enough, and if they stay in the middle I just MC them closer to me as I stand at the edge. All it takes is a few attempts and eventually they "run" from me. Many a paladin has blown up in anger when I do this to them, but it's their fault for starting one of the most boring-ass duels in WoW. I guess it might be possible to kill a paladin, but I'll be damned if I'm going to try for 10-15 minutes like other healers supposedly do.

Also, duels are a stupid diversion. If you like them that's fine, but people take them way too seriously and think that the whole game should be rebalanced so they can duel anyone and have at least a 50% chance to win against an equally skilled opponent.

One of my characters is a Paladin and I will tell you right now:

Unless you play a warrior or rogue you will not lose to a Paladin if you're a smart player. Period. If you play any other class and you lose to a Paladin, pre or post nerf you will be laughed at by competent players. So stop the whining about God mode and all that bullshit. Paladins are awesome in PvE, (Though mindnumbingly slow) but they are horrible in PvP. All they can do is try to outlast their opponents. Warriors are gimped so we can beat them. Rogues are soft so we can beat them. Any class with range can beat a Paladin down without breaking a sweat if the player has a single brain cell. Even Priests. (Actually, alot of paladins I know live in fear of priests in PvP.)

I have exactly 0 talents in doing shadow damage (I specced shadow for silence), which means that while I may be able to eventually win I will not be doing so any time soon and I really cbf'd trying. Really it's the same for any healer/healer hybrid. If they aren't a retard the fight is gonna last a while and I just don't have the patience. The Paladin is especially bad because it's practically impossible for me to screw up and get myself killed. Hence the fear tactic.

I've also had a Paladin so don't think I don't know how it is. I do however hate the shield. I'd rather have an ability like sprint to get away from bad PVE battles as then I'd have something that could get me away from PVP, or get me to the enemy. I'd rather have something like nature's swiftness for the ability to instantly heal. I'd rather have some more variety in offencive abilities and some appreciable burst DPS. As an opponent to a Paladin I'd rather they just fricking die so I'm not stuck in the damn fight for so long. All round it's an ugly, ugly ability for anything other than group PVP and there I think I'd still prefer NS.

My rogue alt is 16 at the moment, and I'm really glad I got my warrior to 60 before I started it. The rogue class is active, deadly and the talent system is packed full of goodness begging to be a part of some synergistic combo of doom. And they're actually pretty resilient too, as a warrior I've been lugging around boots with +1 dodge. Having a class with a 26% base dodge and lots of ways to pump it up is delightftul. I feel powerful.

Paladins did need a fix, some of the DPS numbers I've seen posted for SotC are just way out of wack with what a tank class should be doing. Especially a tank class with substantial group utility outside of melee tanking. However I understand it must be a terrible shock for them to drop down to where a lot of warriors have been since release. A relatively passive class that feels slow and sluggish as a soloist.

To me the real test will be the next "real" patch (www.patchtimer.org). That will be the one that might give an insight into what their class balancing strategy will e like.

I hate it when people say they are fixing bugs. Or as Blizzard says "blah was not working as intended."

Intentions are meaningless. Once you release it, you are changing the behavior. Whether or not that is a fix of a technical bug, or a logical problem, or whatever, it doesn't really matter.

That isn't just true of game software. At my company we've gotten into trouble once or twice by doing things we thought were CLEARLY bug fixes and then having customers tell us they relied upon or like the old behavior.

Once it's in the hands of the customers, it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

I would also say that most MMORPG have as many logical bugs as technical bugs anyway.

Except the DPS numbers were bugged. Especially if you were getting them from that POS Cosmos. There were large threads with comprehensive testing done that showed the actual damage wasn't what the DPS numbers showed but was below it. These were ignored of course. I don't much care. I just switched to Seal of Command. I just get tired of the whining and blatant lies put forth by those wishing to nerf Paladins.

I don't understand the paladin hate, ive played both horde and alliance to fairly high levels and i never thought they where all that powerfull.  If there is a class with godmode in this game its shamans closely followed by shadow priests.  I would put paladins fourth after those two classes and rogues in the pvp power scale.  A class with no range attack or snare is a class you don't ever have to worry about losing too.

I think they're talking about the shield + insta full health thing when they mention GODMODE.  You know, having 8 people beat on you in pvp, hitting an instant ability and PRESTO: out of trouble and full health.  It's quite the bitch in large scale pvp, to the point that I have to casually remind people to let the paladin and his pathetic damage output wait until more of the soft targets are down.  I can imagine it's pretty much equates to near invincibility in pve, although at a rather boring clip.  I never found paladins overly powerful, just overly fucking annoying. 

Shaman, godmode? HAH.  I'd have to HAH at shadow priests only (due to shredding some in pvp).  I lose my fair share in PVP (people need to learn how to play their damn classes though, jesus) and quite frankly in some of the higher level instance situations I'm finding myself less than optimal.  Try solo healing Iron Highway in BRD as a shaman. LOTS OF FUN.  Just pray you don't have an idiot in your group, you'll be wiping on every other dwarf pull.

EDIT: I think we need to give the game a bit more time to mature before we start with the PVP/PVE nerfs/rebalance.  First they need to fix the bugs with the classes (some have serveral).  Let people play for a while so player skill somewhat matures.  Maybe even introduce the battlegrounds. Then start the rebalancing act.  A lot of the gripes I see are just people not knowing how to play their class (here's a hint asswipes, don't fight me like a mob) or obvious bugs that still haven't been fixed (Seal Fate bug with rogues, this seal snafu with paladins). I'm just eagerly awaiting nerfs to the two classes I play based on knee jerk reactions based upon a facet of the game that just hasn't fully matured yet.

I don't think shamans are meant to be main healers any more than paladins are, it sure helps to have one backing a druid or priest though.  I don't see why anyone would bother with the iron highway in brd after their first time there, that fire guy has shitty loot and thats the most annoying part of the zone before the lycaeum.  I see what you meant about godmode though, i still think shamans and priests and rogues where more powerfull in pvp than paladins pre nerf(fix).  I play a rogue and while i don't feel overpowered i can admit im in the top 3 pvp classes.

Yah, I know that about BRD. I tried to explain it to the group but they got a tad pig headed over it.  For me though, it was just an illustration of the limits of my class. Where a priest or perhaps druid could solo it even with a few hiccups, but a shaman's just on the razor's edge the entire time.

Shaman, played by a competent player is probably the best class in PVP.  Hands down.  Solo, it can come down to serveral factors (many classes can beat us), but in a large or group situation they can just destroy.  Paladins just raw survivability though is unmatched and unfettered by anything anyone can do (outside of just ignoring the paladins and saving them for mop up time).  It'll probably get looked at some point or another, which will be unfortunate. Who knows, with this current fix maybe they're right at where they're supposed to be in the eyes of Blizzard. 

Yeah I hate the nerf calls because people suck too. I have not lost a single duel to anyone but my brother (and only him now that he has anti-fear abilities) and a number of times I just know that I would have lost if my opponent had the skill required. Infact, I'd go so far as to say we've never lost an even battle and have won a number of uneven ones as well. It just pisses me off sometimes, I like PVP for the thrill of beating something smarter than a mob and instead get to beat up on people who don't know shit about how to PVP despite being on a PVP server. Then I think how they're the ones who try to call nerfs and it just makes me mad.

See this is what pisses me off so badly about the Paladin haters. Most of them when they are being honest don't say Paladins destroy them. Or that Paladins own in PvP. What they say is Paladins are annoying because they are hard to kill. Here's a hint, when you leave a class to kill last because it's just an annoyance, it's not over powered and it sure as  hell doesn't have a Godmode.

Before I quit, I was in the process of making a Holy/Protection paladin, knowing retribution would be nerfed sooner or later. Is there anything in the patches from Jan-Feb that would ruin of my chances of that working OK (sorry if it's been asked before, I haven't kept up)? I liked priests, but a near indestructible healer is much more appealing, regardless if his heals are weaker or not :-)

On a sidenote, such a character is pretty useless without a dependable guild or group for PvP, and definitely no fun xping alone with. Who's playing Alliance characters these days (on a PvP server)?

It was a fix until some paladin actually shows some parsing indicating otherwise. The intent was +40% haste balanced against less damage per swing with any overall DPS bonus coming from the ATK boost. It's roughly equivalent to the warrior skill of battle shout but a lot less annoying to keep up. However blizzard stated it was adding +40% haste and a damage bonus per attack.

The godmode thing is blizzard screwing up their PvP/PvE balance. In PvE I don't see it as an issue because the paladin will, I assume, lose aggro if they shield which acts as a dis-incentive to use it since they're one of the more durable classes. Of course in PvP where aggro is irrelevant and focused range fire is the primary danger it's massively powerful. Even the few battles I've observed it's been obvious how much freedom it gives the paladins to be agressive with pushing the enemy, unlike warriors where doing an aggressive push recreates something a lot like a light cavalry charge into entrenched machine guns. Nor do I see some simple way for blizzard to balance it so that it is useful but not overpowering in both modes.

The patch will be intriguing.... eventually.

I believe this to be true, as the functionality that they have in PvP as part of groups is insane.

The two buttons that get the most action out of me in group PvP are the eversnare (L1 Frost Shock) and purge.

And Chain Lightning has a sinister side: one night we joined five shaman in a group at a huge battle at Tarren Mill just because we wanted to have fun with all five of us hitting the same target with Chain Lightning at once, and see how cool it looked with five arcs spreading inside the enemy lines. It turned out to be way more devestating than one would expect. Five strikes in, the Alliance group which outnumbered and outleveled us found itself getting routed.

And any alliance rout finds itself accompanied by frost shock. Plus, purge is ever-helpful as a 30yd instacast that brings a target back into combat mode and prevents mounting, as well as being capable of purging all but ONE of the Paladin's invul. shields.

I'm playing with a group of friends on Sargeras Alliance. Bonus: if you join us, at some point you may be killed by Morphiend (Horde on the same server).

PM me if you are interested in joining our merry band.

Heh, I had (have) characters on Sargeras that were in Morphiend's guild. You sure you'd want to accept a traitor?  :wink:

Seriously though, I didn't stay on Sargeras long, but I think it was one of the only servers that I had Horde characters. I might as well keep 'em there. Thanks for the offer though.

EDIT: Anyways, how common are Holy disc Paladins these days? I figured a backlines healer like that would be the shit. Is there something I'm missing?

I don't see much lower down in the Holy tree that has a lot to do with healing. Other than Spiritual focus, Improved Holy Light, Illumination, and Divine Favor most of the rest of the tree is pretty damn useless IMO. I put points in improved Flash of Light but will probably respec out of it because I've yet to find a time when that spell is useful. Heal 350hp at L59? That's a tiny drop in the bucket. Right now I keep 2 Holy Lights loaded, the current level and one 2 levels lower for top up heals which still heals 650 hp and is way more useful than flash of light. I think the paladin makes a good backup healer but there's not much higher up in the tree to make it worth being heavy in holy. I went for most of the defensive skills from the other talent trees in my build with the points saved from not spending them in holy. I don't get up to blessing of kings sadly but my build is very survivable. At 60 I'm going to work a bit more on getting my int up so I can cast more than 5 or 6 heals before being oom. Unfortunately most of the drops and quest gear I've gotten has been more sta/str than sta/int.

And regarding the original thread topic. I had a tauran warrior I got up to 35. He was a bit twinked and I duoed him with a rl friend who played a druid so I built him to do damage as well as tank. At 35, according to the much maligned dps meter in cosmos, which however inaccurate, I would assume is at least consistant, the warrior was doing more damage than the "pre fixed" paladin. According to cosmos the warrior clocked out around 75-80 dps with a good blue 2h I bought in the  auction house, then with the cyclone sword from the warrior quest he was up around 80-90 dps. In comparison, the paladin with his blue 2h polearm at 35 was around 50-60 dps, even with the "bugged" crusader.

I hope the cosmos dps meter is bugged because according to the tooltip on my character sheet I should be getting 110 dps from my current weapon yet the highest I've hit with it is around 75. That's judging crusader then using seal of light. My judged seal of light hits for about 110 right now. I theorized that a fast 1 hand weapon would do quite decent dps with it but it seems I still do more damage with a 2 hander than a 1 hander. I guess they restrict the procs per minute same as eq did with their proc weapons.

Anyway, point is, you don't have to go holy spec to be a back line healer. Seventeen points is all I see needed to beef up your healing power as good as it can get.

The big thing about a heavy investment into Holy is you get access to Holy Shock. It's quite crappy really when you consider it has a 30 second cooldown and the damage:mana ratio isn't even 1:1 but it's ranged and it's instant. One of the more popular duelist builds relies on a big 2-hander with judged SotC and SoC, then you slam down a holy shock for a surprisingly large amount of burst damage. It's also great for killing runners... and I assume good for adding to focus fire kills (was on a PVE server with my paladin).

Outside of PVP it's just WAY to mana inefficient to be worth it though.

That;s what I said. That there was parsing. At least on the scale of the parsing that I've seen saying warriors aren't getting all their HPs each level.

We have a few paladins in our guild. Only 1 of them is Holy/Prot specced and he is talking about respeccing. His healing is still not very good and he kills things so slow, especially after the Seal of Crusader nerf that the extra protection doesn't feel that useful to him. Essentially as it stands, about the only viable Paladin build uses alot of the Retribution tree.

Hmm, I wonder if it's as bad as he says, or that he just has envy from all the Retribution Paladins. I could care less about damage for Paladins. I just wanted a decent healer who could also keep himself alive more often.

Well, the biggest problem he has is that he finds soloing to be even more painfully slow than a retribution paladin does, and he still doesn't feel like he competes with a good priest or druid in healing. As well he doesn't think Holy Shock is as useful as he'd hoped.

Well yeah, Holy Shock is mighty disappointing if you expect it to be good in a vaccuum. In any case, tell him to try using seal of righteousness as his main seal. The way it works is you seal up with SotC, judge that, then use seal of righteousness and judge that when judgement becomes available and renew it. It's pretty decent damage at not too much mana expendidure, but it's really the only way to go as a holy/X paladin for solo damage IMO. Also, if you're on a PVE server then Holy Shield is a much much better source of additional holy damage. Unfortunately he wont have enough talents to try Holy Shield without respec, but he'll have the talents to try righteousness. Personally I think he'd be served by trying it before he respecs and thus have to pay if he gets curious later.

I've always argued that a int gear pally would be the most powerful support pvp character in the game.

There are a few counters I've heard:
-blue plate never has int

Ok make that one counter I didn't think was bullshit.  The heal is 2.5sec, its 70% non interrupt from damage and its sizable enough to make a difference in pvp.  Think of it as a Crusader that isn't broken w/ an aoe.

New patch today -


Anyone played yet? Did this bust all the UI mods again? I keep holding off on using any of the addons because I don't want to fight with them every time there is a patch.

When I was playing there was an ability to turn off blizzard's checking of the UI version, it was buried somewhere in the options.  Unless they changed that you can just check that box and not have to worry about the UI's version number.

Edit: It is in the character selection screen, Add ons button.

Complete agreement. Paladins fall under "don't bother" in my pvp lexicon. The time it takes to finally wear one down is better spent killing several non-paladin alliance. Or dying. Or doing anything besides watching "Immune" and the palladin's health bar fill back up....again...

It's a bit shortsighted to think people won't be upset when you have a way to become totally immune to damage for a while and nobody else does (and nobody at all on the horde side). Kinda like having an alliance-only racial invisibility or something.

Playing Horde with the current imbalance is griefing yourself anyhow. I was a little shocked when I discovered that there are a pair of "Frostsaber Trainers" in Winterspring that give a faction-based quest series, all three of which need to be repeated 62 times. Complete the 186 quests, and you have the opportunity to purchase a pretty exclusive elite mount. Yes, a dwarven paladin can ride a lavender tiger. It turns out that the Horde equivalent is the "Ravasaur Trainers" in Un'Goro Crater. I've seen both of them, but they never wanted to talk. However, I hadn't tried at level 60. So I took the long trip over there to talk to the trainers. Nothing.

I sent an in-game petition regarding the quest giver, and asking when it was likely that these quests would be available. I got a reply back by email saying, and I fucking quote verbatim... "The situation you reported is a not a bug, and should be functioning normally.  If this is in regards to a quest, please read the quest description in its entirety."

The point here is that there isn't a quest description. The wanker in the crater won't give a quest.

It's as bad as the lack of any drops in Silithus. My theory there is that because the "key" item to open the instance in the south is a random zone drop, and they haven't finished coding the instance (which is one of the toughest raid instances they have planned), so they just stopped mobs in the zone dropping anything. For a laugh, try skinning one. You get the skinning animation and timer, followed by "there was no drop to get". Needless to say, this is also "working as intended".

Awesome.

Horde and the last-minute, still-buggy hunter class, to boot!

Hell, it was so nice last night to play a mage newbie (on one of the new rp servers) and be able to actually hit all mobs no matter how far away they were (the hunter's well-exploited zone of helplessness between melee and ranged). The rather huge Aspect of the Hawk bug, too. Pretty buggy class. Better nerf paladins.

http://wow.ogaming.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4569

Seems that you're right.

Yes, I suppose, but I can't attack you while invulnerable from one power and the other makes me hit at 1/2 speed.  You might as well take that time to heal yourself too (bandages, potions, powers, etc.)  We won't be damaging you except for maybe engineering skills or consecration (relatively low damage AOE.)

All our invulnerability powers do is delay the outcome of a fight if we fight anyone that can play their character well.  Most, though, see "Immune" and start to panic.

Several higher level Bosses have this ability and people seem to get by it.  We typically use that time to buff and heal up.

/shrug

By the way, we aren't the only ones.  Priests have Power Word: Shield.  It doesn't delay your attacks at all and can be cast on other players.  I play a priest too.  That power is uber.

Only a paladin could compare his powers to 'Higher level Bosses' and fail to understand why people think they are overpowered.

Hah! I was thinking the same thing. Hey, lots of npcs have invisibility, why should we bitch that Night Elves get it and no other player race?
Which is the point. Of course I heal up while a paladin is immune. It prolongs the battle to annoying lengths, two to three times as long as fighting any other class. Now I use the time to mount up and go somewhere less annoying, or lure him into an ambush so we can get it over faster.

I got bored effing around with a level 60 paladin 1v1 last night. He couldn't get near me, even had trouble putting enough hurt on my dog, and I couldn't do enough damage between his invulns and heals (how was that ever a 5 minute cooldown, the timer's broken). It's a waste of time and arrows. Call in a mage and find something more fun to kill.

Yeah, you can make anything sounds that way when taken out of context.  You ignored my point and focused on my comparing a power to a mob's?  Plus, I meant higher level meaning around 24 elite (Scarlet Monastery anyone?)  Yeah, that's totally uber!  That's a nice way to end a meaningful argument, with a statement that means nothing and seems more like a personal attack.  Thanks.

Sky, are you saying that all classes should have the powers of the others?  Stealthing for all?  What's your point?

My point?  Yeah, Pally's have some uber powers, but if you play your class right, you can beat them or leave em.  You can continue to make snide remarks about them having some power you don't, but that doesn't solve anything. 

Or you can continue to focus on a few powers OTHER classes have and h8.  Whatever.

Meanwhile, I've moved from my Paladin to a Priest.  I'm blazing through levels much faster with him.

It certainly wasn't meant to be a personal attack, maybe I should have added a winky smile or something. It was just a free shot at paladins in general. They are just very aggravating to fight, sort of like mobs in EQ who would complete heal themselves. If you made a horde priest you might one day begin to understand why paladins are so reviled.

I've sworn off PvP now that I've resubscribed so I don't really care if they nerf paladins. In general I'm against nerfs as they start a never-ending cycle.

Google, the translator of, he say:

USA'S Computer the Games magazine issued some new WOW information. Includes several transcriptions some news which soon opens. Included 5 person of transcriptions, the RAID transcription, the epic poem duty correlation transcription. Natural, but also has the Austria 特兰特 mountain, first battlefield transcription.

QUOTE
Dire Maul


This ever great metropolis now already was everywhere the ruins. Eldre' thalas one is in the original Kalimdor mainland the biggest dark night of demon city, the upper classes of society lives together, Austria technique research center. But destroys after in the original Kalimdor mainland big collapse, these have the noble blood relationship the evil spirit masters are cursed forever pace back and forth in this ruins. This city was lost abandons becomes hundred over a thousand year, occupied here king Gordok until food person evil spirit. Now, eats the person evil spirits firmly controls this city, attempts to obtain the Austria technique evil spirit method from these evil spirits master spirit secret. Some rumors said, one group of satyr also dives into and hides inside the ruins, for realize their plot explores this antiquity city loses the mark.

Dire maul is one units place to 法拉斯 47-56 level of transcriptions. Same like the scarlet monastery, this transcription also divides into several independent parts.

QUOTE
Blackwing Lair


In above the black pinnacle burning crest, is situated the dangerous black wing lair. There originally is the black iron fort one part, recently actually appropriates to oneself by ominous wicked black dragon Nefarian. Organization's lackey protects by the frantic dragon person and Black the Flight. The black wing lair is entire Chinese mugwort Ze in the Russ world one most dangerous place. In order to protect its dirty collar and the dark sacrificial altar, Nefarian all cannot be softhearted to any intruder. Only has the person which these bravely treads the nightfall wing lair, only then some possibilities discover Black Dragonflight the astonishing secret, opens them re- rules the world the true plan!

The black wing lair is locates upside the black pinnacle one RAID transcription, is suitable for 40 goes against the level plays the family challenges.

QUOTE
Zul' Gurub


Zul' Gurub was already the Gurubashi empire capital which collapsed. This empire once ruled the thorn valley land and South China Sea's massive islands. Zul' Gurub now still and they " sacred " the Hakkari pastor guarded for these food person's great evil spirit. Some people think these evil pastors want to cause their ancient 嗜血 god Hakkar to seize the work rebirth. Very has the possibility Hakkar rebirth the secret hides in this great evil spirit city loses inside the mark. However, any has not trod that stretch of barbaric land the person, can live comes back confirms these rumors.

Zul' gurub is locates the thorn valley 55-60 level of transcriptions. Suits 5 people plays the family troop challenge.

QUOTE
Ahn' Quiraj


About ancient Ahn' The Quiraj kingdom, we know really few. Only concerns to its inventor's fragmentary fable - riddle general Quiraji master. In the dark night of demon fable, Quiraji is called Silithid with that kind between the insect same fearful race has close contacting. Some one point was now already Ming Le Di: In the bleak desert, after their kingdom giant city wall, the Quiraji activity started to enliven again again. The Sillithid influence also starts in the south Kalimdor various regions to grow. Nobody knows if Ahn' The Quiraj front door the speech which opens, how can have the evil thing gushes out from the center.

Ahn' Gate the Quiraj only can play the family duty by way of one the stimulation opens. Once that leafed door is opened, after in the server all plays the families all may explore the gate land, that is one perfect RAID region, suits 40 goes against the level plays the family challenges. On the open desert, in the profound lair, waits for you are the various strange bitter experience.

QUOTE
Karazhan Tower


In the valley, the Karazhan tower is against the wind orphaned toweringly bank to the steep mountain peak, as if related it former days the honor. There once was the protection Mai Di Wen homeland and the saint institute, but today Karazhan tower the village all completely turned the bleak ruins with it periphery. Now, this tower became the rest death biology homeland. Some rumors said Mai Di Wen in the laboratory and the library hides to the distortion void channel key. The person comes back which from that dark tower said, the tower upper formation loafs the terror devil. Although does not know who the now is truly controls this tower, but definitely had certain evil forces enlightens in the tower in this wheat which the article stayed behind grips the root.

The Karazhan tower is for goes against the level 5 people plays the family troop designs. The entire tower divides into several independent parts, each part all may regard as one independent underground city. Each such part all has at least 3 different entrances.