f13.net

Does anyone have experience with University of Phoenix online?  If so, would you mind posting your experience and overall opinion, even if it's only from a hiring perspective?  I'm concerned a bit with their accreditation and whether my time/money is well spent there.  We've got so many tech people from all areas, I figure a few of the folks here have an opinion on the matter.

I did about 2/3 of a degree in Philosophy at Ohio State and stopped going when we had the baby to stay home with her (wife is our breadwinner).  Now our daughter is headed into first grade in the fall and I need to be getting on with my life a bit.  I'm looking to switch into Programming/Web Development and that's almost like starting over at OSU because they consider that a hard science degree. 

University of Phoenix is willing to bring in 60 of my OSU credits towards a 120 credit Software Programming BS degree with them.  It's pretty expensive, but after looking at OSU, they're actually priced pretty equivalently when all is done.  I also like the fact that the residency is portable, as we plan to move from Ohio to Seattle area sometime next year. 

My best friend is in the development industry and he seems to feel that a degree from any 4yr combined with being able to show experience should net a decent starting job, provided the need for programmers is there in two years. 

Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

If you already have a position with a company that you wish to stay with, ask your employer if they value an online degree. 

If you're planning to retool to search for a position in these tough economic times, it always pays to have your degree from the most reputable institution possible.  Ohio State will offer you the ability to conduct research and pursue internships at companies willing to offer you a job if you bust ass for them.  Online education can't touch this. 

Disclaimer: I am a professor at a state university.  I have a bias toward traditional education.

I thought you just send them a check for a little extra and they will send you the diploma up front.  Saves time for everyone so you don't use up valuable resources attending classes.

I do not have a job at this time.  I have worked on and off after leaving OSU in 2005, but nothing important because my main concern was taking care of my daughter.  I'm a stay-at-home dad, for lack of a better term.  So I'm not really looking to re-tool, rather at age 35 I'm looking to settle into a career in the next few years. 

I'm not looking for research or internships.  I never really fit in at a university, being a home owner with a family and (then) job.  OSU was all about the 20yr old partyers, I'm just too far past that.  And again, going to OSU would be FULLY starting over.  As in, a full four years because of how they separate Arts degrees from Science degrees (my Philosophy degree was arts, CS at OSU is science only). 

I can completely appreciate your bias, but its just not for everyone.  Seriously, if I'm looking at going back for four+ years I'll likely just go blue collar.  All that is left for me to take at University of Phoenix is the computer related classes, the Java, .NET, the architecture... all the history and humanities transferred. 

No, actually.

My wife is attending. The course work can be tough as it's a daily thing with little time for breaks. I couldn't tell you about the computer courses, as that's not her degree field.

From several second-hand accounts from people in the programs, they're one of the more successful degree mills for undergrad and MBA stuff.  They slam you with the coursework like Haemish said, but very few people seem to fail the classes.

I've also heard of many companies not accepting their degrees anymore, especially at the MBA level.  Again, second-hand information, YMMV.

You'll do a lot of "group class" things, which, depending on your group mates, you might discover to be a infuriating experience.

Last I checked UoP degrees were acceptable to teach school with.  If it is good enough for our public schools then it is good enough for me.  Also once yer old and experienced not very many people ask where or when you got your degree.

I would avoid a for-profit online university, personally. Mainly because the prices are ridiculous (usually more expensive than an Ivy League school). A lot of the big traditional universities have online degree programs now as well.

There is a very interesting Frontline piece about for-profit colleges called College, Inc. (it is on their website if you can get the damn player to work, might even be on Netflix by now).

If you want to be taken seriously in the business community or ever get beyond an entry level position, dont do it.
It might be okay for a non-traditional student with vast working knowledge/experience who simply wants to check the "college grad" box, but for someone with no experience who is primarily relying on their degree to get hired its a bad situation.

Are there perhaps other universities in the area you could transfer to?

1.  Prices at UoPhoenix and Ohio State are nigh-similar.  I'll need $35,000 to finish from either in 2-ish years.  The difference being at Phoenix I'd leave with a BS in Programming, and at OSU I would leave with a liberal arts degree. 
2.  Ohio State (my closest logical choice) does not offer any form of online degrees, though Franklin University (local) does, though they're only regionally accredited and more expensive than both. 
3.  Again, part of the draw to an online degree is that it does not tie me down physically, as we will likely move next year out of state.  It would be silly for me to head back to OSU only to move before I'm finished with the degree. 
4.  Thank you for the College, Inc find.  I'm going to peruse their piece this weekend, there's lots of good opinion there. 

As much as I'd love to go the traditional route, I'm beyond that at this point.  I've even questioned some programmers about forgoing the degree and self-teaching, but that was not recommended, as most places want to check that "has degree" box off in an interview. 

Thanks again for all the info and opinions, all.  Keep them coming. 

The degree is bullshit if you want to work at real companies, in real cities, that do meaningful shit. You'd be better off moving up in your career.

Also, I don't even put school info on my resume anymore when looking for a job. If they REQUIRE it, I will then put it on there.

PS Bachelor degrees in general mean fuckall except you were able to finish school.

I don't have a career.  Literally.  There's nowhere to move up to, being a stay at home dad. 

What I'm hoping is that I'll get a bachelor's to satisfy that requirement of an employer, along with getting a few years experience with tools to get my foot in the door somewhere.  From there, it's up to me to keep myself relevant to prospective employers.  As has been mentioned here a few times, after a certain point it becomes less about education and more about how much is brought to the table.  If I understand correctly, at least.  It's not like I want to be a CEO.  I just want to be able to get in somewhere and work my way up, see where it takes me.  Which is how most people do it, I think. 

I slept my way to the top, personally.

Have you looked into local community colleges or technical schools (if tech schools do programming/web)?  They'll probably be a tenth of the price, and you may be able to transfer credit after you move.

I would also strongly advise talking to the types of companies you're planning on applying to after completing your degree.  Ask them their opinions on programs like UoP, and how they would react to seeing it on a resume.  It might take a couple calls or emails but I'm sure you can find an HR guy who'll give you an idea if you'd be throwing your money away or not.

Sounds like you've already talked yourself into University of Phoenix.  So, not too sure why you're asking.  I'm also not sure why the only choice is between OSU and UoP.  OSU credits should transfer anywhere, and most universities and junior colleges have night/online programs.  

Also, do you already know how to program your ass off?  If not, do you really think a fly-by-night UoP degree is going to set the world on fire as you enter the labor market in your mid-to-late thirties as a newb?  Let me tell you something that you already know but don't want to hear:  nobody respects a University of Phoenix degree.  Nobody.

Now, if you already know what the fuck you're doing (as someone suggested) and just need a pedigree so to speak, then maybe it's worth it in your circumstances.  You can probably waltz into an interview and impress upon someone that you know what the fuck you're talking about.  

But if you're a newbie looking to change careers then I'd much rather have a local junior college degree.  It doesn't scream "fraudulent loser" and it's cheaper.

Ditto my wife for an associates in medical admin.  No time or resources for her to do a traditional degree and the online one lets her get an associates while working.


Indeed. Constant bitching from the wife her first 6 months (before the usual freshman attrition) as the idiots she was in class with treated the online class forums like the Vault, spelling and grammar included.



ALL universities are For-Profit.  ALL OF THEM.  Nebu has bitched about this before.  It's also why they'll lie to your damn face about credits transferring from whatever school you're at then tell you, "oh, actually 2/3 of them have to be retaken," after you've matriculated.


All depends on the field, but for what most people get them in, yeah,  I'd agree completely.

Let me propose an alternative way to start a career in Web programming.

Build for yourself a database-backed Web site, preferably based on something you have a personal interest in (to better motivate you to finish it). It doesn't have to be an original idea -- in fact it'll be a lot of easier if you can "borrow" ideas from existing sites that do similar things to what you are trying to do.

Use this opportunity to learn programming, SQL, HTML, CSS and JavaScript. Make sure you study some of the fundamentals of CS while you are at it (algorithms, etc.).

You might need some help on the graphics and look and feel of the site but don't worry too much about that stuff assuming you are more interested in programming than in doing graphic design.

Once it's done make it publicly accessible. Better yet put the code for your site on Github and make it publicaly readable so people can actually see how well you write code (or not if you think it sucks).

After the site is done start looking for contract work doing the same sort of thing using your site as your "portfolio/reference". Once you do some of those and can establish some references from those jobs you can look for a more permanent job. Or you might like just doing the freelance thing as you'll have a lot of more flexibility over your time and working environment.

Take this with a grain of salt, given that I'm in brick-and-mortar, but...no. I've actually looked into and even gotten access to a U. of Phoenix class. First off, most of the for-profits are absolutely brutally sucking off federal dollars via Pell Grants--that's their main racket, in fact. What they give in return is often terrible, low-grade, indifferent education. Phoenix is a bit better than some, and in a few cases, as ok as online ed is going to get. But in some lines, really not much better than reading Wikipedia, only it's going to cost you a shitload. I'm not saying that brick-and-mortar is always better, and in fact, in the less selective domains, often costs as much as U. Phoenix and delivers equally indifferent goods.  The difference is that still, for the most part, employers and others will value a brick-and-mortar degree more (I've heard from plenty of people who've said that for-profit online degrees they have done have opened zero doors for them) and that it's a bit easier, if you're a savvy student, to find the best professors in a shitty institution if it's a flesh-and-blood setup than it is in online for-profit. The reason is that online for-profits conceal almost all info from you about who teaches--you can't shop around, find the diamond in the rough, etc.--you often can't find out anything at all about who is teaching in advance of paying. Search their sites and you'll see that most faculty info is cloaked and some of it stays cloaked even when you've paid your money.

Lots of great ideas here, much appreciated.  I'm going to open a line of communications at a local non-profit university that offers online degrees to see what credits transfer.  Specifically, this degree:  http://www.franklin.edu/degree-programs/undergraduate-majors/web-development/web-development-bachelor-s-degree-requirements.html

I've already talked with them about residency and they're okay if I move out of state, it won't change pricing.  What they were unable to tell me is what credits transfer.  So we'll see.  After reviewing tuition, they seem a bit cheaper than Phoenix, unless they don't take many of my credit from OSU. 

I will say this about Phoenix:  The whole process of talking with them has been too easy; something feels amiss. That was part of why I asked here.

Trippy:  I really thought about doing exactly that, but I'm really concerned about not having the degree.  Plus, I know myself and know that I would thrive with set goals, and I would worry that I'd miss something by myself that I would learn in a class. 

Thanks again, all. 

Of course it is easy, they are trying to sell you a product that you will apply for Federal Student Loans to pay for which means they get their money pretty much right away. (From the taxpayers who could possibly never get paid back if you default).

I think I can sum this up:

< 1% of all PhD's have the credentials to get a tenure track faculty position at Ohio State University. 

99 - 100% of all PhD's have the credentials to get a position at University of Phoenix.

If you want to get an education from an institution that houses the top minds in their respective fields, all working at the leading edge of their discipline, then Ohio State is a superior value. If you just want a piece of paper that will satisfy a minimum requirement, the University of Phoenix will work. 

You'll never regret getting a degree from Ohio State.  Should your goals change in 10 years (like most people's do), your degree from Ohio State will provide far more opportunities both domestically and globally.  I can't honestly say that about the U of Phoenix.

And that's about all that a bachelor's degree of any kind is worth to an interviewer.

As stated above, that is HIGHLY field dependent.  The more science/technical the job is, the more important the granting institution is to the potential employer.   I consider computer scientists to be akin to engineers.

Now, your educational background matters less as you gain experience.  You still need to land that first good job.

As someone without a degree, being unable to check that box in an interview means not getting a lot of interviews, even with 11 years experience.

Once I wrap up this cert, I've been looking at both the local community college (for my AS) and university (SU for BS) online courses. They've traditionally worked well together since it's a common path for the locals to take. Getting a degree not only opens a ton of doors, I would really like to learn a lot of the stuff they're offering now since it interests me. Having to fill in the non-computer courses could be a drag because I'm not getting any younger.

Do you have any certs? Might be another way to go, split is about 50/50 with stuff I've been looking at for certs and degrees, though the cert reqs do tend to want some experience (which is why I'm grabbing the low-hanging fruit first).

As Nebu already said that is highly field dependent. But even then, when its the sole thing you are relying on to get your foot in the door, because you have little or no experience in your chosen field it becomes much more important.

To support what Nebu said, you don't see a lot of diploma mill grads where I work.  However, my employer can afford to be incredibly selective for even the most menial positions.  I'd say 75% of what we hire are computer science, computer/electrical engineering, or MIS/IS degreees.

Once you're in, it doesn't that much matter anymore, but it does help a bit with internal movement.

If the online degree can offer some sort of internship / co-op opportunity, then that might help.  Getting one of those positions before you graduate aids greatly in landing a full time position.

Also bear in mind that there's a significant prejudice and uncensored loathing of UoP among actual accredited institutions. Getting a job at one of those might be problematic if they see UoP on the resume.

This. Also consider what you're getting your degree in. I noted that you mentioned degrees like "Web Programming" - these are most likely useless at best and actively detrimental at worst. A good traditional education grounded in science or engineering will open a lot of doors because the degree is (a) well understood but also (b) is expected to ground you in the principles underpinning your field.

An applied degree like "Web Programming" or "Software Development" is worthless because it's probably just a puffed-up technical-college certification - if you use the tools but don't understand how and why they work, then your skills will be obsolete as soon as the tools change. Worse, such a degree may leave you unequipped when it comes to designing solutions rather than just implementing someone else's design or copy-pasting/tweaking something that already works.

When I sift resumes, it's incredibly easy to circular-file the degree-mill grads and the for-pay non-degree people because I see plenty of resumes from high-quality schools with proper fundamental-science-oriented degrees. The few that slip through tend to have either interesting experience or a good portfolio of side projects.

So yeah, take the advice here, suck it up and finish school traditionally. In the long run, it's a better choice.

Not that I'm considering this because I don't have that kind of money, but how are technical degrees from Devry considered?  They're big here in Columbus and all four people I know that graduated from there have gone on to successful careers.  Just wondering if they carry the same stigma that other 'degree mills' do. 

Again, much appreciated on the comments. 

I think this answers your Devry question well.

When unemployment is high, it's an employers market.  Employers set the standard.  The more you stand out in a stack of resumes, the better the chance of an on-site interview.  It's always best to do everything you have in your power to stack the odds in your favor.  Often, this requires sacrifice. 

I'd recommend a local community college over a private for-profit college.  Community college math and CS courses are as good as anywhere often for the first 1-3 years from what I've seen and heard.  You will save a lot of money and you will pre-requisites to enter a university degree later if you want.

Have you thought about finishing your Philosophy degree and getting a C.S. minor (at OSU of course)?

I know at Illinois they have 2 tracks of C.S. degrees, one is part of the Liberal Arts and Sciences college and one is the College of Engineering. (Mainly to allow the people in the hard sciences to double major or minor in computer science I'd imagine)

That's a good idea.  We had a Science option and a business option, too.

If you know you're going to Oregon in a few years, you should talk to them about what credits might transfer, too.

A "BS in Programming" has no value. A "BS in Computer Science" (or Computer Engineering, or EECS) may have value, depending on where it's from. For software-oriented companies, a UoP "Programming" degree is probably irrelevant at best. What's the full curriculum for the "BS in Programming" at UoP?


Pretty much everyone you'd be competing with for software development jobs (at software-oriented companies) will either have a degree, considerable industry experience, or both. "Entry level" positions at non-software companies are among the easiest to outsource, so you'd be competing with people with at least undergrad degrees from one of the many many many Indian or Chinese (etc) schools, some of which are quite strong by US standards.

If you're going to be moving to Seattle, what about one of the University of Washington campuses? They have quite a few programs for "non-traditional" students. They have a fair number of online-only offerings, mostly for professional/ongoing education (but not undergrad degrees AFAIK).

Another option might be to get any undergrad degree you can from OSU, and then take CS-focused coursework elsewhere. For some employers, any degree plus relevant certs or ongoing education credits may be enough to get past resume screening.

I've considered much of the ideas presented in the last few posts, though some aren't feasible.  Lots of reasons, though a big one is that I don't have a lot of financial aid left, so we're paying out of pocket for a lot of this.  I'd also considered holding off and going to University of Washington to finish, but our move is a year off and I'd need a year to establish residency so I wouldn't have to pay astronomical tuition.  In that two years of waiting, I could have an online degree finished at UoP.  I'm waiting to hear from Franklin's online program about transfer credit.  If Franklin can get me close to being done in 2-3 years, I'm going that route.  It's ultimately cheaper and they're non-profit, private.  I just get the impression locally that they're more respected.  That could work against me out in Seattle, as Franklin is not going to be known out there, but it hasn't stopped a few people I know from being successful.   

Here's the Software Engineering degree at UoP:  http://www.phoenix.edu/programs/degree-programs/technology/bachelors/bsit-se/v006.html
Here's the Computer Science degree from Franklin, most of the humanities and general classes I should have as transfer:  http://www.franklin.edu/degree-programs/undergraduate-majors/computer-science/computer-science-bachelor-s-degree-requirements.html

I completely appreciate the advice here, thanks all.  I'm fairly certain that the traditional route is really not for me, as much as many of you are recommending.  We're an established family and I can't really justify going back to university and leaving the family behind.  I know what that is like; I've done it before and I know how hard it can be on a relationship.  Not to mention that I simply didn't feel my time at Ohio State was well used, it just never felt right there.  It really feels out of place to be in my mid-30s, surrounded by 18-22 year olds.  I can't say how many group projects I just simply did all by myself because I was working when the groups would meet, yet when I was free it was student party time (evenings, weekends).  That happened a LOT. 

That said, reviewing the College, Inc show and some of the general info here has me raising some pretty big red flags towards UoPhoenix.  It seems to be significantly more expensive than Franklin, for example, but I suspect Franklin will accept less transfer credit, so it will be a wash when all is done.  Again, lots of good info here and a truckload of food for thought.  I'm not writing anything in stone or putting anything out of the picture... yet. 

Get an AS in something somewhat related to programming, then go find an entry level web developer job and spend a few years digging around production source code.  I never bothered with a degree but did complete 50 or so units of programming and systems analysis classes, then again it was pretty easy to land gainful tech employment in the early 90's, companies were all but begging people to drop out and come work for them.

That's the point.  There are a lot of people that went to colleges I've never heard of.  But everyone's heard of UoP, and it ain't because they're the online Harvard.  You want to avoid going to schools that have a national reputation for being shit, or that are obvious degree mills.  If I were you I'd do community college and then transfer to a university and do the minimum amount of credits necessary to graduate with their degree.  And as others have suggested, get a legit computer science degree, not some watered-down bullshit.

This can't be stressed enough.  No one cares about what college you went to unless they know it via reputation.  In Texas if you went to Texas Tech, University of Texas, or A&M you will be known and people will judge you based on which of the 3 you went to and care less about any of the others unless they went there.  Leave Texas and no one has heard or gives a shit about any of them.  UoP has a reputation as a "buy a degree" place practically nationwide and while some of their programs might be worthwhile, the general reputation you get from people who aren't looking to justify having gone there is "you bought your degree!"  This is not something you want potential employers to be thinking of when they see your resume.

Hawkbit,

You may find most Computer Science classes at the UW in the non-degree program that are not affected by state residency

http://www.outreach.washington.edu/nondegree/ for the program page

Courses in computer science themselves for summer:

http://www.washington.edu/students/timeschd/SUM2011/cse.html

Also, there is a certificate program:

http://www.pce.uw.edu/finder.aspx

as mentioned before.

I didn't want to finish, or even start college myself, because a BA/BS didn't seem like enough. I tried to get into various trade programs in my late teens/early 20s but at that point (early 80s) they still weren't letting women in. I held out until age 31 and finally I said oh the hell with it and got a degree in English at a traditional school (University of Washington). Though I got a liberal arts degree, I ended up, somehow, in databases; now I'm a database analyst.

All that to say it doesn't matter so much what BA/BS you get. It's more about work experience and whether you can actually do whatever it is the job requires. I get teased about poetry, but I don't get paid less than the guys with BSes. I think your best choices are going to be either (1) finish your philosophy degree and get a trade certificate in your IT field, or (2) get a trade certificate in your IT field. Seriously, I think there's enough negativity about UoP that I wouldn't risk spending the money. Its reputation is unlikely to change for the better.

As Engels mentioned, the UW has some very good online certificate programs that aren't much more expensive than out-of-state tuition--or actually I think they might be cheaper than out-of-state tuition. I'm currently taking the Oracle Database Management certificate class, which costs $2460 including all fees or whatever, and it's online with no difference in tuition for out-of-staters. Plus, bonus, I didn't have to go back and take more math--they let me in based on how much I already know about computers.

The guy I hired to do entry level programming stuff is using Western Governor's University. He claims it's non profit and the courses also count as certifications. I watched the College, Inc. doc on Netflix too. Those medical students who used UoP got pretty screwed as far as I can tell.

On the other hand I don't have a degree and don't really care if the people I hire do either. So far I prefer them not to so I can train them on exactly what I want and they don't have to unlearn what they thought they knew. Trippy's suggestion on training yourself through real world projects is a good one.

I use Lynda.com (online video training) to train the people I hire on what I think they need to know.

My friend was just up in Seattle and claimed there were A LOT of tech jobs. Whether those require degrees or not I have no idea though.

The two year costs you're quoting that its going to cost you are the same two year costs you will pay at the U.W. for 1 year of out of state and 1 year of in state.

The U.W. is also a a pretty decent school*[top 50 national undergrad, not quite as good for what I want] and is better than Ohio State and much much better than UoP

Its well respected in the area. If you can get in , its a great place to be. I stress the second part because the U.W. has a 57% acceptance rate for undergrads. You probably have a bit of an advantage being a continuing student but it would still be tough.

*Better be, i am going back there in the fall.

Not to mention that the in-state acceptance hurdle is much higher than the out-of-state requirements. Its become a bit of a scandal here. 4.0s in-state don't get in, while 3.0s out of state do get in. For obvious monetary reasons, which creates outrage, but then again, Washingtonians constantly vote down taxation that would keep our educational institutions solvent. We're a closet red state, fiscally speaking.

There are.

If you can program well without a degree you are already working and your company is working to keep you and other are trying to get you to leave.

If you can program well and have a degree the same applies.

If you are average programmer with experience there is work but might be contract or start up.

The bar to get into Google, Microsoft and their spinoffs is pretty high.

We filter on education but interview on ability, which is easy to measure with a standard set of questions.

It is also very easy to get references on people as everyone has work at so many companies.

My UoP experiences (some have been said already):

- They're more expensive than other online courses.

- In every class, you get graded on several things:  forum participation (you have to answer and think of questions to ask the other students, which may be a pain), homework assignments which are due, and tests.  The workload for each class will keep you busy for at least 1-2 hrs every day.

- You have to deal with the way they use software for interacting with you - you can lose (grading) points for expressing something as 1/2 rather than 0.5, you have to use their browser addons (MathLab f.ex.) for the specific fonts and symbols in your answers (and they're not always intuitive or easy to use), and integration of addons into their class forums isn't all that great (their forums are standard plain forums - it's a pain, for example, to properly write a mathematical formula with fractions and radicals, and thus the "discussions with classmates" can be a pita).

- You have to deal with the teachers - for non-science stuff (a philosophy class for example) you could get good grades or bad grades based on the teacher's bias towards your (forum posting) tone or what they perceive as "how much effort you put in".  But I suppose this is true everywhere, not just online.  However, the "teachers" are actually more like forum moderators; you're expected to read the PDF of the current textbook chapter(s), figure stuff out mostly on your own, do the exercises mostly on your own, and submit the assignments and take the tests (assignments get graded by the teacher, tests get auto-graded by the computer). 

- You can find answers to tests or assignments via google, esp. for science classes.

So I did some more digging. If we can say that the general quality of education in the undergrad department will at least kind of mirror the graduate you really want to go to the U.W over UoP or Ohio State

The U.W. has a general raking of 7 for best grad schools for Computer Science (as well as high rankings in information systems). That means not as good as MIT or Standford. But better than Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, UCLA, CIT, etc.

A number of schools are moving many classes to an online format. You might want to check your local state and city schools -- you might be able to get away with taking the bulk of your classes online. Depending on where you live, you might also have a college with at least one campus geared heavily towards adults (hence a focus on late afternoon and evening classes, after work hours).

I got my BS by taking a bunch of CC classes to get the basics (cheap!), and then going to a school mostly focused for adults -- 90% of my classes were from 7:00 to 10:00 once a week or from 5:30 to 7:00 twice a week. My Master's was the same way, although I did have perhaps two classes in the 11:30 to 1:00 block, but I just took long lunchs twice a week. Most were in the late afternoons and evenings. I had two or three classes that were purely online. There WAS a class you could show up for, but it was basically just a study session with the prof in there to answer questions. Sorta like really extended office hours.

As long as the school is properly accredited, no one really cares. As far as most employees are concerned you're either "big-name" (MIT, Harvard, whatever) or "accredited".

Honestly, I think UoP probably falls in a new category below accreditted. From everything I've read, the Kaplan stuff isn't a good education to begin with, and definitely aimed at parting you from your cash.

I'm waiting to hear back on unofficial transfer credits from Franklin.edu.  They're a non-profit, private local college that has a full online program here in Columbus.  They're over 100 years old and are regionally accredited, so I feel a lot better about them overall.  As long as they'll take my first year of all the english/humanities credits, I'll likely go with them.  They've been pretty upfront about the fact that I can move anywhere and still work on my degree, without worrying about residency tuition changes.  And they're about 1/3 cheaper than UoP.  So we'll see this week, hopefully.  Just keeping my fingers crossed, hoping they take a bunch of credits.

I just luv all the bullshit that colleges can do to you.

Since I switched majors from nursing to public health for my bachelors of science, I got placed as a freshman, instead of a freshman 2nd degree, not a big deal until i went to register for classes, now I'm back at the bottom and the damn paper pushers are taking forever to remedy the problem!

My masters program made you register two semesters in advance to graduate. I raised my hand at orientation and said, "So if I'm full time and plan to finish this in a year, I should have registered to graduate before I got accepted?" They kind of stared at each other for a while, shuffled feet, and said that's not really the normal mode.

I didn't end up "graduating" until the year after I finished all my classes. Fucking paper pushers at colleges are idiots.

Being someone that works at a university, I agree 100%.  For example, my school lacks the ability to pay me my 9 month salary over a 12 month period.   

Hey, I am sort of a paper pusher at a university now!

Congo rats!

So you're only sort of an idiot!

 :grin:

I was going to point out something similar.  There are a lot of schools doing all online degrees now, you don't have to limit yourself to schools in your area.  My brother in law is getting a masters in electrical engineering online from NYU and he has never in set foot in New York.

My wife got two Master's fron Fontbonne, purely online -- even got an "in state" rate. I think the program she went through was the only purely on-line setup they had, though. And their Master's program via that path JUST got their accreditation (my wife's cohort was the last needed to finish the process).

First and foremost, you should be pursuing an education, not a degree.  If you're going to invest several years worth of after-tax income plus a couple more years without significant income on it then for god's sake get a GOOD education, not a joke degree.   Odds are, what you think you want to do now is not what you will actually end up doing in 5 or 10 years, so that good educational foundation will be critical to your continuing success. 

Too many of the lower quality degree programs in the IT field mostly just teach you how to use specific tools (usually whatever Microsoft or Oracle or IBM or whoever has donated to them), and next to nothing about the principles behind those tools and WHY they do what they do.  The most important thing an IT degree should teach you is not how to do some checklist of technical things but how to LEARN how to do just about any remotely relevant technical thing.  Because odds are the tools you use in class while learning will be obsolete by the time you enter the job market (if they aren't already), but if you know how to do the real stuff that the tools are just making easier for you, then it doesn't matter when the tools change, you just figure out how to do what you know needs to be done in the new environment and keep going. 

Look for courses that teach you theory, not just practical application.  For any software degree that should include courses on Data Structures, Software Testing, Design Patterns, Software Architecture and the like.  The more general and basic or foundational the topic, the more likely it will be useful to you your entire career.  And the more specific and "practical" the topic, the less likely it will actually end up being something you use in the real world.  Learn at least two different real-world programming languages, more if possible.  Learn formal object oriented programming, and learn how to hack stuff in VB Script or whatever.

Seriously.  Embarking on a career in IT, especially software development, is asking for a lifetime of constant learning.  You will never be able to coast on what you already know for very long.  So make sure you enjoy learning, get a good solid educational foundation, learn how to think to apply what you've learned to problems that bear little or no resemblance to anything you've seen before, and above all learn HOW to learn.

If you are interested in going into programming, read these:

http://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/five-essential-phone-screen-questions

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html

The degree might get you in the door, but you *have* to know your shit cold to get a good job.

Fucking regular expressions. (First link). I use them once in a blue moon. But hand to God, you give me a problem like "Find every phone number in 50,000 web pages we have in a file directory" and my answer would probably be "I'd write a script, probably PERL, and just use regular expressions."

If you wanted the actual regular expression, I'd flat out admit "I don't know. I don't use them often enough to have them memorized. I'd need 20 minutes and a web page on regular expressions to figure it out".

One reason I'm dreading my job hunt. I mean, shit, "write a function that determines of a character is an uppercase A to Z" -- I'd just look up the ASCII values as a double check and do a is A<=x <=Z.

I'm pretty sure that's not what that guy is after.

:drill:

Struggle with this on my Security+ exams. Answer: I'd google it or crack a reference book. Knowing what to look up and how to use it is the important thing imo.

My answer would be "look through my old CD-ROM's for the string library I cribbed from some "Learn C++ in 21 days" book 15 years ago and call "IsUpperCase" (returns true if it is, false if it isn't)."  Probably also not the answer he wants.

--Dave

I admit, I've done like four of these damn phone screenings and while I'm feeling I'm doing better with each (I hadn't interviewed in a decade!) I am pretty happy that the one that I got promoted to a in-person interview off of was with the actual manager/project lead I'd be working with.

They just keep touching on a lot of basics I don't really deal with. Like O-notation and stuff. I'd much prefer questions that test knowledge on that -- when would you use a linked list versus an array, or what are the pluses and minuses of a binary tree for a data structure, or better yet -- if I wanted to store this sort of data in memory, what data structure would you choose?

I can tell you that searching a linked list or unsorted array is pretty much linear, that it pretty much always takes the same time to locate something in a hash table no matter how big it is (there's a bit of fudge depending on collisions, but it's negligible) that a binary tree is fast to search (something like 1/2 N at most..maybe log O? Fuck if I can remember. Can you have an unordered binary tree? Don't think so), like binary searching a sorted array.

But ask me "if I did this, what's the O notation for it?" and you'd be lucky to get "Um, that'd be polynomial. Probably. Like N squared or something."

Our company was hiring new software engineers, and they decided to bring me in for the interview process (which is funny since i'm technically in the QA department, not engineering).  I was *amazed* at how bad people were at programming.  I didn't even have to do Big O notation (which I don't even know myself) or anything complicated.

All I had to ask candidates was to write pseudo-code to reverse a string, and after watching various flow charts (that took 15 minutes for them to come up with, literally) and other mind-boggling failures we ended up interviewing about 10 people, of which only 3 could actually write up the pseudo-code (one of which we figured out that the recruiter was telling them that we ask that and that's the only reason he could perform it).

Shit, I had a more intensive (programming related) interview to get in as a QA engineer than what these clowns went through for product engineering.  Before I went through those interviews I always thought I wouldn't be able cut it as a programmer since I graduated with an MIS degree and hadn't had a pure programming job (only programming as a part of the job).   My opinion has changed, since every one of those programmers graduated with a CS degree and (supposedly) had 3-5 years work experience as a programmer.

You mean like oldstring = "abcdefg" and reversing that?

Wouldn't
int y=0;
for(x=length of string; x>=0; x--) {
newstring[y] = oldstring [x ];
y++;
}

do the job? It's not terribly elegant, but it should work forward through newstring and back through oldstring. I mean, you have to be able to reduce a string to a character array, but the only thing even remotely tricky is to fill one string going forward as the other decrements. Or am I missing the actual hard part?

No you got it, there is no hard part to it.  That's exactly my point.  It doesn't require flow charts and should be easy to figure out by even non-programmers since all we were asking for was pseudo-code, not even real code.  It's really just a logic problem to make sure people can think problems through logically and can translate that to something resembling code.  People couldn't get past the first part though.

I always worry my basic math is off when I try stuff like that. Unless I've done it recently, I'm just not comfortable unless I have a sheet of scratch paper to fake-iterate it once and check the boundaries. Not that doing 20-x-1 is hard math. :) I just like seeing it written out.

I had an interviewer ask a pseudo-code question like that. I'm pretty sure I flubbed it, although I don't think that's terribly fair. He had an object that he was adding other objects to (a.append(b), a.append(b1) where a and b are objects) and asking how I'd structure a print method for A to print out whatever of B (included as a library) you had in there.

I told him string print() {
foreach B in List/Whatever
  output+= b.print() + "\n";

return output;
}

I'm not sure he wanted me to assume that B came with a string output method, whereas I'd personally get up and go smack whomever wrote B if they didn't include it.

Some interviewers can be vague about what they really want (either because they are stupid or because they are trying to stroke their ego and are being dicks).  Theoretically, most programming interviewers shouldn't have too much of an emphasis on actual code or math, as you don't have any of the tools at your disposal that you traditionally do while actually programming.  Most interviews should be about concepts and creating algorithms, but a lot of time that's not the case. 

And I don't blame you about wanting scratch paper, I don't even like explaining algorithms without paper.  Writing algorithms and math down makes it much easier to conceptualize what you are trying to accomplish.

The point is not necessarily the specific answer, it is the manner in which it is presented.  For example, Morat's answers above were perfectly good answers.  What an interviewer doesn't want to see is a candidate fall apart into a gooey mess of bumbling and straw-clutching, or worse yet outright bullshitting.  Candidates like this aren't going to be there to deliver quality results on schedule.  They just aren't.

90% of working in engineering is getting your ideas out, challenged, and persevering through reasoned argument (or at least that's what it *should* be at a good company).  You don't have to memorize standard O notation for every conceivable algorithm, but you should be able to figure out asymptotic complexity of new code mostly by inspection (non-binary recursion is one of the few exceptions, however that's why we have the Master Method!).  If a senior engineer inspects your code and says, "Did you check if your semaphores hold after your code is rescheduled on a different work loop?" and you stare blankly back because you don't know what a semaphore is and that different work loops exist in a modern OS, you are as good as out the door. 

And yes, you really need to know or at least be able to speak intelligently about these CS related subjects with confidence if you want to land a top position where you are doing real work for real money.  There's too many hack programmers out there and they really end up falling down on their faces right when you need to ship product or when the really nasty problems come up that nobody else can solve.

I've interviewed hundreds of people, and if you don't know your shit, you aren't going any further.  If you know your shit well, but can't communicate it effectively, then you aren't getting a call back.  I can't spend all day telling everyone else what I think you are doing.

If I asked the 'how would you reverse a string question', and they responded:

"I would step through it in reverse and copy it to a new string, because I know that works and I could get it working quickly.  If I were given the opportunity to optimize it without impacting the schedule, then I might think about doing it in-place to save the overhead.  I might also think about threading it if I didn't need the results immediately."

That person would go high on my list.

Someone who wrote up on the white board:

"void reverse_string(char *s){(*char)*p((*((*(***(*(++-0x4353334)--&0x24222343 >> 0x3F)))))"

Wouldn't be high on my list even if it magically worked, because that isn't maintainable by the next guy to come along.  However that answer wouldn't be low on my list either, because having a few people like that on the team *always* comes in handy.  :grin:

What's a work loop? (I know what a sempahore is. I don't use them in my current job, which means I haven't used them in like...5+ years...but I've had to play with pretty much every form of synchronization and locking issues in the past).

In the context you used, I'd imagine the actual gist of the question is "When you wrote your semaphores, did you stupidly make the assumption that all your processes and threads would be working at the same priority and not partially or totally interrupted by all the other zillion things the PC does?"

If someone said that to me on an interview alarm bells would be going off.  That kind of talk smells a lot like they are just reciting buzz words and have no knowledge of how to apply them to real world problems.  Threading is ridiculous for reversing a string and optimizing it by doing it in place isn't worth the work unless you are working in a memory constrained embedded application. 

The point isn't to show how technical and how many terms you recite off the top of your head.  The point is to show that you can take a problem, create an algorithm to solve that problem, and know real world uses for the concepts used in the problem.  Presenting a solution to a problem in a realistic way is a lot more meaningful than trying to present it in an overly-complicated way like your example, because usually when people try and over-complicate solutions where not needed you end up with shitty code that can't be maintained for no benefit.

A lot of what's a good idea is industry or doman specific. Modern computers, do you really need to screw around with short ints and risk overflow errors, or just make it long and ignore it?

Well yes and no. Are you bandwidth constrained? Are you working embedded? I'd probably go with short's and bounds checking if I was constantly sending them across a narrow channel.

One thing I hate is being asked questions that have a domain specific response without being given the relevant domain. "How would you do X?" Well, I'd do it Y. "Well didn't you consider that you'd be making a million requests every second?"

No, I didn't. Because you didn't say that. And because I have no idea what you actually do. I can think of systems where you'd be making small requests where'd you want to lock until you got a response. Others where you'd be making large ones, but bandwidth isn't really an issue.

I really hate getting asked questions that are very obviously "Here's a common problem/situation we encounter where we have a standard solution. Guess what it is without knowing what our actual requirements are like!"

Bottom line seems to be: know what you're doing. There are enough shops out there that you will eventually find one that matches your style. Even the most competent person won't fit every environment properly. Says as much about the interviewer and the corporate culture as the prospect.

One of my co-workers also enjoys asking people hard questions to see how they squirm. I think I've talked about this before, we call it "the gameshow".

My favorite example is "Please write a function for me on this whiteboard that, when passed an integer, will determine all prime numbers between 1 and that interger and return them in a list."

He has had people just stand up and walk out of the interview before. I really do think he's slightly sadistic, but the point isn't whether you get it right, it's how you react under pressure and to determine the depth of your knowledge on a subject.

Getting it right helps, of course.


Here are a few from the programming section (in C)

Shit, I doubt I could answer any of those. Well, other than fork. I know what fork does. Then again, I haven't used C in like ten years. Hell, I couldn't remember what "internal" was to C# and I last used that only two years ago. (Then again, assemblies and me never did get along).

As for a function doing primes. Shit. Psuedocode wise...Um, something like:

Create a return array.
For(x=1;x<=cap;x++)
{
  prime = true;  
  for(y=1;y<x;y++)
  {
    if(x mod y == 0) //not a prime
      prime = false;
    if(prime == false)
      return;
    }
   if(prime == true)
     addX to returnList
}

I think that would do it. Not in an elegant or particularly efficient way though. Shit, now I sorta want to code it up and see if it works. Offhand, that took about 5 minutes of futzing around and is probably wrong.

In case you're wondering, I made myself work that up because, you know, interviewing and I could use the practice. And when you guys point out how I fucked it up, I didn't just blow a potential job. I also can't remember how to return an array from a function in C. Probably by address, although IIRC C# allows arrays as a return type.

You're obviously looking for a different kind of candidate, which is fine.  Every company is different....also keep in mind that the stuff I posted earlier was for phone screening criterion, not necessarily what is asked in an in-person interview.

...but the fundamentals don't change.  That's the entire point.  You don't have a prayer of solving differential equations before you understand the rules of addition and subtraction.  You can't design a bridge before you understand how metals behave under stress. 


Do you understand why this algorithm (as written) is O(n^2) on input size?

Because any algorithm for finding primes is going to be n²?  If you get an applicant that has an algorithm that isn't, put them in for a Nobel and short the shit out of every company that makes money off of crypto.

--Dave

Yep. It's the nested loops. The outer one runs from 1 to N and the inner one runs from X to N, which means your order is n^2. For each iteration of the outer loop you have to run an inner loop from X to N. So for N = 1000, you run iteration one with 999 iterations in the inner loop, then iteration two with 998....so 1000^2 is roughly correct.

However, the best you can really do is emulate -- shit, maybe it's the seive method? -- in which case you can run your inner loop from X to (N/2)+1. Which is probably balanced out by doing more operations inside the inner loop.

Finding primes is algorithmically complex. As least it's not an NP problem.

Dave: I think that was a demonstrative follow-up question. And it's an important one. I doubt they'll care how efficient or order your off-the-cuff algorithms are, but they'll want to be sure you can explain it. I don't do much optimization work myself, but you'll want to make sure programmers can wander through code and spot the points where you program will be spending the most time.

Still have no idea what a work loop is. :)

This is why I never claimed to be more than a "competent" programmer.  I have no problem at all with brute-forcing my way past a problem, and then optimizing only if it turns out I actually need to.  For example, that algorithm would work just fine as you weren't running it on too large a number.  And if I needed to optimize it, I'd probably make a table with all the primes in the range I was going to encounter and just yank them out of there rather than mess around with trying to shave cycles off the loop.

I'm not a coder by nature, I learned to program because it was a useful set of tools, not because I enjoy thinking in computer logic.

--Dave

I'm so glad I dropped programming/CS while I was still in HS.  :oh_i_see:

lol. "Make a table" was my first thought too. We do a sort of agile process -- lots of rapid prototyping -- so we go with "what works easiest" so we have something that works to play with.

Then we go back and optimize. It's kind of a tough balance, because you have to make early design decisions with an eye towards flexibility and efficiency, because if you don't then all the "make it work right now, even if it's crude" shit builds up and you have to go back and redo everything.

OTOH, when you do have to go back and redo everything -- you generally know exactly how you want it to look and act, and you've had several iterations of customer feedback to make sure it's on point.

I'll be spending my upcoming week on night shift reading .NET in a nutshell so I can remember how the fuck .NET works. I got moved back to it after a two years of ColdFusion and I am abjectly confused again. Updating a mature product, so I'm just sort of thrown in the deep end again. Oh well, looks good on the resume and it'll be fresh if I'm asked about it.

It was, and you answered fine.  Based on some of your previous answers you have the basics down pretty well so I wouldn't sweat it too much.  You'll do fine.  :awesome_for_real:

A work-loop is kernel-speak for a thread which is doled out to device drivers for them to 'do stuff'....it carries with it the normal hazards of thread programming along with certain guarantees (at least in theory) about the state of memory (and the state of hardware) while the work-loop is running.  A lot of synchronization is required if multiple independent event-based kernel drivers try to talk to the same hardware at the same time (ostensibly because they are listening to the same hardware notifications), and work-loops provide some minimal guarantee's by convention.  They still are a real PITA in practice, just like threads are. :grin:

Been a few years since doing C professionally, but most of those are stuff any C programmer should be able to rattle off (even to my age addled brain, only a few might be fuzzy but I think I would be able to BS my way through/or come back to me if I gazed at some live (or dead) code).

It's been a 6+ years since interviewing for a dev spot, but are developer interviews still conducted like this? Even at the startups I worked for, the interviews were mere formalities to confirm I was not a raging A-hole or beset with any hideous abnormal behavioral pathologies… …the last 2 interviews, I was told late, that it was all "academic" after (a) wearing a polo shirt with a "#!" insignia and (b) detailed what work I did in "Korn shell"…

Back in mainframe days, remember some harrowing interviews where you got tag-teamed in a round-robin drilling, then were given code and asked to decipher and debug -- "interviews" that lasted 3-4 hours or more. In one, for a job that I turned down, one guy went at me in rapid fire fashion, peppering me with ABEND root-cause practices -- S0C4, S0C7, etc.… in which I answered but then retorted, "Wow, you guys sure have a lot of programs crashing here, what's going on with your development/support process?"…

A few months back, I was at a Ruby conference and one of the speakers gave a talk on their hiring practices at a Ruby on Rails company (Hashrocket, I believe it was) -- their "interview" sessions last an entire week, 40+ hours, where the candidate is required to take some vacation time (if he/she has another job already), pair up with a developer (they practice the "pair programming" discipline devotedly), and then do lunches & dinners with the rest of the company team. The "office" looks more like a house rented by college kids with ping pong/pool tables, karaoke & wii/xbox/ps3 and the speaker bragged about how they spend hundreds of dollars on groceries -- not that they require you to "eat in", just that they want to make it more convenient not to head out for lunch. Sounds a little too intimate for my liking, but I wonder if this type of practice will ever become more mainstream…

s/intimate/creepy

Here's another interview question I was told that I always liked (although I don't use it in screens or live interviews any longer):

How is the number 5 represented in base -1?

Base negative one? How do you have a number system based on a negative? How do you even HAVE a base 1 number system? I guess base 1 means all you have is 0, so five would have to be 00000, as you'd just count up the number of zeros.

I'm guessing I don't understand the question somehow.

Start with the definition of any number in any base, and the answer falls out.  How does base 10 work?  What does each digit represent?  What about base 2? 

That's my point -- the base system defines range of integers represented by one "place". So in binary you can represent two values -- 0 and 1. In Base 10, you can represent 10 values in a single slot -- 0 through 9. Base 16? Zero through F.

Base one would be that each slot is represented by a single value (0) thus 5 in Base 1 would be 00000.

I have no idea how one would represent a negative number of values in a single slot.

That reminds me not an of an interview question but a joke:

Why do "real" programmers sometimes get Christmas and Halloween confused?

Because OCT31 = DEC25 is a true statement

You have basically stated the idea of the answer, but you have to throw away your concepts for what the base representation of a number 'should be'.

I'll give the answer in a spoiler if you want to think about it some more: