f13.net

After recently considering a thread about tools and home improvement, I have have a small number of items come up which may make for interesting discussion and which are also unlikely to end in legal action.  This is the boring thread about normal home improvement.  It's all Squidward and no Spongebob in here.

Item one is regarding my plans to install a tankless water heater.  I had some plumbers come in and check out the situation yesterday and the verdict is that I would need a two-inch pipe from my LP tank in order to provide enough volume to operate the water heater.  Otherwise everything was fine.  They instead suggested a "cheaper" solution of installing a Marathon 85-gallon tank to solve both my quantity problem and my corrosion problem.  This would be $2110 for the complete replacement, although they also seem to want to replace my thermal expansion tank to bring me up to code.

Current plan on the water heater front is to call up my gas company and ask how much it will be to trench a new pipe.  I'm sure it will be expensive and also they get to dodge the new VDSL line I had trenched a few months back.  This route seems unlikely.

Item two is something I discovered while in the basement.  Recent heavy rain has forced a small leak into my basement.  After talking to my brother-in-law who had similar issues, I have decided that the immediate best course is to install a pipe to take away the water coming off the downspout directly above a gaping hole next to my foundation wall.  I might also stuff some dirt in there but I'm not sure yet.  Fact is that the ground slopes toward my house in that spot.  I'm thinking dirt-subtraction will be the best course, in addition to the pipe.

Item three is that I recently discovered that the fan is not turning in the outside component of my primary HVAC unit.  It was making a horrible racket, and so I pulled the breaker on it.  Some people think this is a terrible idea, but the house is still warm and I can sleep at night.  I am going to have to eventually call the HVAC repair guy yet again, since I expect this condition will have a very negative impact on the cooling of my house come summertime.

No. 1:  Ouch.  Tankless is nice, but not the end all be all.  IF POSSIBLE (and not knowing the layout of your house), I would put a whole house unit at the front of the house (dishwasher, washing machine, sink), with room/point of use units in the bathrooms.  But I would seriously only even think about getting tankless if you were planning on dying in that house (or were building new).  I just can't justify a short term cost benefit to it.

No. 2:  French drain away from the house?  Nevermind, just reread and my minds eye figured out the issue you were having

No. 3:  That shouldn't be that expensive.  

Item 1-  I really looked into getting a tankless heater.  Things that scared me off were the cost of the unit, cost of installation and modifications to my existing setup that would need to happen.  If your problem is volume is there a place you could install a second (or third) hot water heater?  If you want the instant on effect they sell circulator devices you could put in-line that will give you the same effect.  It will run your heater more than normal, but you can set it up to only work when you are likely to use the hot water, i.e. mornings.  

Here's (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm) a nice consumer reports writeup on tankless.  Read the part on "Tankless Units Need More Care".  

Item 2-  What about foundation damage, if this is new?  Would you need a sump pump?  

Item 3-  Sorry man, no help with HVAC.   :ye_gods:

Arg, LP tank. That takes me back. Is the trench near the foundation you need to re-grade? :) Excavation guys are highway robbers, you might be better off going with the tank, unfortunately.

You're on target with the downspout, that should be a good six feet away from the house, imo. And re-grade as best you can. When the guys installed new gutters on my place, I had them leave a trench for a buried downspout, I went back and filled it with proper stone/gravel/landscape fabric/gravel/dirt as an extra bit of drainage outside the pipe. Something similar might work for you, trench out under the new extended outflow starting about a foot from the end plus maybe another six feet, grading fairly steeply away from the house. Then layer in like I did, fill with dirt and replace the sod. That should help drain the water away from the house. I'm no contractor but something like that would be quick and easy.

Grading away from the house is one of my pet peeves with my house, because it's built on grade. When they put in the main portion between the slabs, they kept it on grade rather than make it two steps up to the basemented portions. Still considering raising that up (which would also make my basement huge).

When you say outside component, you mean the condenser? Does it do heat pump duty or just a/c? If it's just an a/c condenser and you have a furnace, don't sweat it until summer when you need a/c. You could also pop the cover and inspect the fan if you have the breaker off. Might just need some minor maintenance or be a bent fin or something easy.

Don't do that. 

If memory serves, Yeg's in Georgia, right?  If he gets it done when he needs A/C, that will be waaay too late and the A/C guys will rape him over hot spike covered coals.  Have it done/estimated during very early spring when you don't need A/C and those guys are crunching for cash.  Otherwise your cost will triple come summertime.

Good point!

Heh.  There's a time of the year to do certain things down South.  Need roofing done or trees cut down?  Wait until spring or mid fall to catch them after or before hurricane season.  Any AC/heat pump work should be done during the of the year you don't run it for cooling or heating (for us its mid March to Mid May or so).  Otherwise your cost can double or triple.  Lots more negotiating room as well.

My current home has a tankless (was put in during original construction).  The only thing I don't like about it is the "trickle" problem, if I'm running a little hot water for shaving or rinsing dishes, the heater doesn't activate.  Other than that it's great, especially when everyone in the house is taking showers one after the other (all three showers can be running at once and 6 people total, try that with a tank).  I don't have to worry about whether the dishwasher or washing machine is running/has run recently, and so on.

On straight energy savings, the tankless is iffy (takes about 20 years to break even on installation costs).  But if you're constantly having trouble with waiting for hot water, trying to jam all your hot water use into narrow windows, it fixes it in a far more reliable way than just getting bigger/more traditional heaters would.

--Dave

That's the point where I decided against tankless and just paid the $350 for a new water heater myself.

1. The smaller your living space is and the less people you have using water, the more affordable a tankless system becomes. Or if you run out of hot water. Do you not have natural gas in your area. I have my natural gas company coming out next week to relocate my pipe so I can do some driveway grading. (That's free).

2. Water anywhere near foundations = bad thing. Just move the water away.

3. Could look at buying just the fan part online and throwing it in. But if that doesn't work you are out a bit of cash, but... HVAC is $$$.

How long have you had it?  Have you had any problems at all, meaning mechanical, breakage, etc.? 

In our case we are renovating a small upstairs bathroom and making it bigger. Additionally the bathroom has a dedicated hot water heater in the basement from the point in time when the house used to be cut into two separate apartments.

So since we are:
A) Doing renovations anyway.
B) Doing away with an entire hot water heater that was only being used for one upstairs bathroom

Would we run into the same energy issues and lack of savings on gas costs?

The house is only about 3 years old, and I haven't even really looked at it closely, to tell the truth.  As I understand it the only real risks for breakage are related to hard water clogging up the inside with deposits (if you're pushing it too close to boiling), impurities in the NG causing pitting to eat through the outside of the plenum, or flexing causing a leak where the water enters and leaves the unit.

I should probably take a closer look at it one of these days, but so far it just works.

--Dave

The less hot water is actually used, the more the tankless will gain on a tank (because the difference is the heat wasted keeping water hot between uses).  For "typical" use and Natural Gas prices, there's a gain of about $70/year, but that could probably double in the application you're describing.

--Dave

The guy that gave me an estimate said you should have it "serviced" every year to 18 months.  I couldn't tell if he was selling me a line of shit or not. 

Since the most common maintenance recommendation is to have it flushed of sediment, and even a superficial examination of the design says that sediment build up should be nearly nil (it happens in tank heaters because a large amount of water sits in the tank for long periods), I'd say that as long as your water isn't brown to begin with, you're about as likely to have the heater clogged by sediment as for it to happen to your water pipes in general.

Calcification is going to be a concern, if your shower head tends to clog up you probably want to watch for a loss of flow rate from your hot water and get it flushed as needed.  But spending a couple of hundred dollars to do it every year for preventative maintenance is a plumber trying to make easy money.

--Dave

I figured it wouldn't be that much of an issue with a proper water softener, and down here you basically have to have one.  Anyway, thanks for the info.

Hey look, another discussion of tankless heaters! Didn't we just do this?  :grin:

1) Why do they say you need a 2" pipe for the gas? That seems excessively large because most connections to the unit are only 3/4."  Then again I'm not a plumber, so I guess the pressure from an LP tank just isn't the same as gas from service. 

I don't get where everyone's objection over cost is coming from, though.  Tankless units have really dropped in price and are comparable to most mid to high-end high efficiency water heaters these days.  If you're only spending $300 on a water heater, you'd better be planning on moving soon or don't care about your efficiency because those are in the .92 - .93 range.

What are the specifics on the TE tank that they want to replace it?  Just that it's old or is there some other really pressing need like, "oh hell that thing is way undersized for this house."  You also said something about a corrosion problem but didn't fully explain it.

2) I'd do what sky said with the downspout to start with.  When you say the ground slopes towards your house at that point, is it that your entire back/ side of the house slopes that way, or that they didn't lift the house up enough so you've got a gentle slope coming down?   If it's the former, look into doing some sort of French Drain along that side to try and deal with it, if it's the latter you might consider just having it all regraded a bit so it slopes properly.

3)  As someone else mentioned, do you have a heat pump or is it just the a/c condenser?  If it's your heat pump that's bad, because that's a key part of the system not working right there.  It's the compressor that actually heats up the refrigerant, so by pulling its breaker I've no idea how you're still getting heat.  Then again you say "the house is still warm" so it could just be residual heat and you work up today freezing your nads off.

For me, when I swapped my water heater 4 years ago, I was facing $1200-$1500 for the tankless water heater plus another $1000 in wiring costs (presuming the breaker box didn't need to be replaced), plus re-sheet-rocking, plumbing it into the system, etc..  Nowadays with prices coming down some, or if you're on gas, it might be a different story.

Also, I'm in Houston, where our water is so hard that it's unreal.  So it's easier to toss a cheap(er) water heater every 7-10 years when it gets completely full of deposits.

I'm trying to decide whether to do a number of home improvements piecemeal or to get a loan and a good general contractor to do everything in a package. After dealing with the endless bad DIY shit that the previous owner did and then carefully hid, I'm not going to go that route since we're likely to be in this house for another 15-20 years, god willing.

The ascending hierarchy of things we need/need eventually/might do:

1. New water heater
2. Interior paint of the stairway walls (dogs have fucked it up chasing their balls down the stairs). (This we might do ourselves soon)
3. New front door and door frame (previous owner fucked it up, door is cracking a bit, I made it a bit worse with a new screen door installation)
4. New windows and window frames for at least the downstairs, maybe the whole house. Fucking awful old storm windows are busted but good, we're bleeding heat now, and then bleeding central A/C later.
5. New outlets in most parts of the house--not three-pronged, some so loose as to be unusuable.
6. New light fixtures in old kitchen.
7. New shingles on roof. Could wait another five years, but starting to show some age and degradation.
8. New tile job in upstairs bathroom. Crappy cement used by last asshole is cracking and falling apart in some areas, potentially letting mold in behind the tile.
9. New exterior paint job. We have refractory brick, has to stay painted. I don't like the current color anyway--it's a boring white. But the paint is still in pretty good shape, so this could wait a long while.
10. Extension of downstairs--bigger kitchen, new home office so that we can turn current home office back into a bedroom and have a guest bed/reading room upstairs, maybe an extension of the downstairs bathroom so that it has a shower or bath as well. There's a pretty standard extension design that a lot of folks in our neighborhood have used to the essentially identical house plans in this three-block area that might do the trick. Would mean getting rid of underutilized three-season sun room. Maybe also getting rid of two younger maples close to the house that I rather like.
11. New deck back of extension.
12. Patio area in overgrown SE area of yard--I have a very clear design idea (two walls of brick or maybe cinderblock with plaster over, plaster with vibrant wash painting (sort of Tuscan in look), crack plaster in a few spots for exposed brick underneath, vines trailing up wall, old wood door in one wall (I can do the distress work on a door myself to get the look), some raw-wood yard furniture and an outdoor fireplace or clay oven in one corner. I can see this really clearly but it's pretty much a personal project, would add no resale in this area, I could even do it myself except for getting the ground levelled and drainage placed, etc., but it would still be a big project.

1) Get professionals.  Don't mess around with potential water leaks, it's the most likely way to do major structural damage.
2) Do it yourself, painting small interior areas is easy, and if you screw it up you do it again.  You can do it 5 times for less than a pro will cost.
3) Doable if you have construction skills, but better to get a pro.
4) New storm windows will be considerably cheaper than hanging new double-panes, and about as effective.
5-6) To do it right will not be easy or cheap, if they're two-pronged you're going to need new ground conductors run.  Get a pro and have him run new grounds to the pipes (if they're plastic, you're pretty much fucked).  Don't do electrical on that scale yourself, screwing it up means fires later.  I'd do it, but I was trained as an electrician, once upon a time.  Normal electronics geek skills are not adequate.
7) Get a pro, and have him bid materials and labor separately (possibly buy the materials yourself).  You want premium materials, it's the difference between a 10 year roof and a 30 year roof.  A lot of shops will make a low bid to get the job, then shave material quality to recover their profit margin (a "professional" shop with salesmen in ties is just as likely to screw you as the guy who works out of his truck).  Ideally, find a neighbor who had their roof done 5-10 years ago, has no leaks now, and give that guy's bid extra weight.  Get references, again for jobs in the 5-10 year window, and *check* them.
8) Floor tiling can be a DIY, but stuff that is going to be exposed to a lot of water (tub/shower surround) needs a pro.
9) Exterior painting is better left to a pro, they have the equipment and skills.
10) Major job, if combined with your electrical work could make that both cheaper and better.
11) You're going to need a general contractor for the expansion anyway, the deck can be rolled into that or left for later.
12) If you're going to do this as a separate project, have (11) done at the same time (or at least by the same people).

--Dave

If you do hire out painting always, always, always buy the paint yourself and make sure that they are using the paint you bought.  If not, they will use the cheapest shit they can find.  

And as a general, though not firm, rule, I find that when I do painting, tilework, minor plumbing and electric, minor carpentry and drywall that I'm usually better off doing it myself.  Mot of the time the job I have is too minor for them to even show up after they do the estimate and, if they do, they are desperate because they are fucking awful.  Things I don't touch-  electric, most in wall plumbing, appliances, breaker boxes, hanging doors/windows, roofing, HVAC. 

For a regular in the basement/closet water heater? Ive replaced three over the years.
Connect the in and out water lines, and either plug it in or connect to gas line.
Fairly straight forward.

And I've seen what happens when a *tiny* leak in one runs non-stop for five years before the entire tank drops through the floor.  There was probably less water than a drippy faucet, but it rotted out the central load-bearing column about halfway through, in addition to the floor.  If it had been 3 inches closer to the wall, the first warning would have been the center of the house caving in.

--Dave

EDIT: Yes, I realize this can happen with any plumbing you won't normally be seeing, which is why my plumbing DIY stops at the wall.

Hell, if you want to know about leaks you should just ask Nerf  :awesome_for_real:

I'm just wondering how much it would add to the expansion job if we gave a general contractor a list like that, absent the few easy things like the hallway paint job--if bundling everything together at once is more economical, assuming we find a good GC. Couple of my colleagues have a guy they've used for significant work to their houses, he's done about five jobs in the last six years for folks, so I assume there's some degree of continued happiness and satisfaction with him.

The hot water heater we'd definitely have done by our plumber, though--he's a good egg and charges very low prices for quality work.

If you are doing a lot of work that will require a GC, it doesn't hurt to have them look at all of them when they first come by and give you estimates for all of them. Let them know up front that you are looking to do things at different times, and what are your priorities, but listen to their advice if they tell you how doing things in a different order/concurrently may save in time and materials.

One thing where a lot of money can be saved is if you are having multiple things that need demolition and thus a lot of trash removal done at the same time because the majority of the price in a roll-off dumpster is delivery/pickup and the larger the pan, the better the price. In some cases, having one 30yard dumpster for a couple weeks and then having it taken away once is less than half the cost of having 2 15-yard dumpsters for a week each.

This is probably the way to go then, even if it is a little more expensive than doing it yourself.  It is tough to find good construction/plumbing/electrical folks.  

And don't pay them until it is done to your satisfaction... Or pay 50% at 50% completion and 100% at 100%.

I've known 4-5 people who have hired someone to do work, then pay them at 75% or something and they never show up again.

This. I think the tank they put in my house about six months after I moved in  :oh_i_see: was around $700+install. It's an NG with the ducted venting, some kind of high pressure thingy. Since most contractors that have been in my basement thought it was a nice model, I just had the guy replace it with the same thing. Expect about 8 years out of it (that what the last one got). If I had my druthers (= money), I'd put in a massive radiant system on a manifold. It's an amazing way to do it, forced air sucks (but is much cheaper to install and maintain).

This summer is going to suck. I was hoping to get in a new NG stove, since the cheap apartment-grade one I got with the house just sucks (as does the fridge). But right now the project list is:

1. Finish the ant wall project - last coats of compound, paint. Put in new window jambs/stools and trim windows and wall, paint/stain. Pray I sealed it well enough I don't have to rip it all down again in the autumn.

2. Remove awnings from three windows and replace the rotten wood around four windows, possibly with new tin as well. Fashion some new water deflection devices based on a wood/tin miniroof the old guy had fashioned for the triple window that couldn't take an awning. Base problem there is there are no eaves on the old section of the house, roof line goes to the wall and ends. Gutters have solved that for the summer, but this winter has been hellacious with ice, lots of sun and cold. I'm definitely over-doing this project, but it's a good one to over-do.

3. Remove a through-wall a/c unit from the seventies that's been hanging out unused for a decade or two. Wanted to get some masonry experience under my belt (see #4) before opening a hole in my bedroom wall. Thought about replacing it, but putting the money into central a/c makes more sense. Fill hole with concrete block, try to somehow make the interior look nice (note to self: buy large painting).

4. Repoint interior of garage wall. I repointed the exterior last summer and it went great. Really what needs to be done is proper lintels over the garage windows, they just cast concrete in there and it of course cracked. However, those were cast about 80 years ago, so I'm hoping it can wait another few years, though it's a straightforward repair.

5. Doors. Two exterior doors removed, sanded and painted. Two french doors removed, sanded and stained to match the new living room trim.

6. Clean and seal garage floor. I don't know when it was last done, and the previous occupants didn't park in there. Salt is eating it. I sealed the major cracks when I moved in, but getting some spalling now.

7. Clean and seal the driveway. I have a pretty massive driveway, and a pretty massive maple. Going to fill the large cracks with the ropey stuff you melt to fill the cracks, then get bids for sealing it. If I have the time, I'll probably end up sealing it myself, but it's in rough shape. Like everything else, been at least ten years since it's been done.

One good thing about the place, with all the maintenance and work I'm putting into it, the bones are great because the guy who owned it from the 60s-99 was exceedingly meticulous about it. Even though the driveway, for instance, hasn't been sealed or maintained in years, it's one of the best in the neighborhood. The neighbor who's driveway borders my lawn...half of it is IN my lawn, they lose chunks off the end every year. Don't see the cheap bastards replacing it, hell, me and the guy across the street have to call to get the potholes in front of their house filled.

On GCs. Ask everyone you run into, friends, family, strangers. Talk to every major GC in the area and have them bid for you, also call the highest recommended of the little guys. Go look at their work, I like to stop and watch the crews when they're working in the area. My guy is good, but he's young. He's cheap, but his finish isn't the greatest (and I'm a tough critic, though). To have the big GC do it, I'd pay at least double, so I can live with some finish blemishes - I know the core work is being done right (I also take vacation and give him free set-up/labor/clean-up). I never pay in advance, my guy is small enough that he usually takes payment at completion, but I will give him some money for progress if he needs materials for another job, make sure you get receipts!

Pay attention to their specialties based on training and experience. Ask what they do the majority of the time. A guy who is great at roofs and siding might not be the guy to call for your bathroom. Once you get to know the GCs a bit more, you can go the next step and learn the subs. A GC is only as good as his subs, so if you find a good GC with great subs, it's worth the extra money. Great subs aren't cheap and are in high demand, and won't work for every GC.

/ramble

Oh, yeah, driveway, that should be on my list too. We had an estimate two years ago and it was $10k, which seemed too high to me by a good bit--but at any rate, that convinced me that we could wait and drive on the shit driveway for now.

They have a product for that. Its called a hot water heater pan. And how much of a doofus (this wasnt you was it? if so sorry for the doofus comment) would you have to be to not notice the floor rotting out under your hot water heater?

http://www.ehow.com/how_5324990_install-water-heater-pan.html




Do it yourself with crushed gravel and paver stones?

You guys need to watch more HGTV and less American Idol.

:uhrr:

There is much pain, precarious balancing on 10' ladders, and a shitload of money spent at Lowes/Home Depot down that path.

Paving a whole driveway would be a shitload of work, even for the little 25' building setback on mine. 

$10k for a driveway does seem high, but how long is it and how steep is your drive sloped? 

What? Couple weekends and about $2k in materials and its done. Savings $8k.

http://www.diynetwork.com/how-to/how-to-lay-a-cobblestone-driveway/index.html


Nerf, this coming from the guy who wants to create his own faux stone wall of rock? Shut it!  :grin:

I'll still want to do that tomorrow, but right now all I want is sleep and a giant bottle of vicoden.

Celluar Neurology class and 2 aleeve are the best I can do, though :(

Have you actually installed a paver driveway? Also, where do you live, how big is your driveway, what is the existing driveway?

I worked road construction for two years, the DIY driveway beds make me  :awesome_for_real: :uhrr: :ye_gods: :why_so_serious:

Pavers would have to be done absolutely perfectly if you don't want it going back to shit in a year or two.  You'll have to pack the rock really, really well and set the pavers appropriately for the weight of a car. 

And hope you don't have any organics under it which will rot and create voids that need to be repaved every year.

Btw the fiancee wants Nerfco to put his renovations on TV (http://www.hgtv.com/renovation-realities/show/index.html).

Also like to see Sand's $2k/2 weekend driveway on there.

Hummm.... recreate a Roman highway or just cover with gravel? :why_so_serious:

My driveway is ~550 feet.  We had one or two dumptrucks drop piles of "crush-and-run" on it and a friend with a Bobcat came out to smooth it for me.  No, I don't know how much the gravel cost.  It's due for a third scraping in 8+ years, which I think I can get an old guy with a tractor to do for me.


I'm told it's volume, which Boyle reminds us is related to pressure in this case.  One thing that I'm not 100% on is that these guys have done several tankless but always NG, never LP.  I might make some more calls but at this point I think I have other items which need my attention more than the fact that I run out of hot water.


The quote says to bring it up to code, which I usually assume to mean either it doesn't meet code or the plumber has a car payment to make.  $380 to replace the TE tank seems reasonable next to $2110 for a water heater.


It's because I have a convection loop so that there is fast warm water in the master bath.  This constant flow is apparently very bad for the water heater, and the anode is so corroded that it's visible on the outside of the tank.  I expect it to start squirting water any day now.  The other water heater, which services the rest of the house and does not have a loop, is in fine condition based on a external inspection.  Also it's never needed heating element replacement while the master bath tank has had two element replacements so far.


The slope is mostly due to a water leak discovered during construction.  The backfill was dug out, more tar put on the foundation wall, a drainpipe was put next to the footing, and the backfill replaced.  It's basically a mild depression in what might otherwise be a flat space that quickly slopes away from the house about six feet out.  I haven't noticed any dirt coming out of the end of the pipe but it's possibly just filling up with dirt/sand by now.  I'm trying to decide if I need to put the drainpipe along the length of the foundation wall so that it emerges close to the existing one, or maybe put it perpendicular to the foundation wall and have it be an eyesore in the yard.  An advantage to going parallel is that I can also tie in the AC condensation outflow, since that also emerges from the house in that area.

After I put the pipe in, I will have bought time until my wife's imagined patio takes shape, which would actually cover that entire place with a slab if it turns out as I think it will.


I am assuming that I have whatever would let my heat continue to work while the "outside part" does not have the fan turning.  My next question is why would it be turning in the first place?  Possibly I am running only on heating elements without heatpump benefit.  I know jack shit about HVAC.  I just know that I forgot to call the tech today.  Fortunately I know someone who is very good and possibly honest as well.

Crusher run, gravel with limestone. My grandpa was president of a regional paver that owned the supply chain, spent plenty of time in quarries and crusher plants.  :grin:

Georgia accent unraveled!  In any case, this material makes a fine driveway.  Bonus is that I can sometimes hear cars arrive if I am not in a noisy environment.

a 25 foot driveway for 10k is not unreasonable.

Its really not that hard. And you can rent a bob cat and compactor at most home improvement stores. In fact I would do this project two times over before I would ever tackle another paint job. I hate hate hate hate hate taping all the blue fucking tape up all over the place and dont have a steady enough hand to do it with out the blue tape.

Hm, 25'? 30'? and no slope to speak of. But it's pretty cracked and rough, so I'm sure it's a not inconsiderable project. Probably a reasonable estimate. I just balk at dropping that when it's functional enough and we have many other fish to fry.

Sure! Just read that DIY site and go out and rent the gear. What could go wrong?  :why_so_serious:

/Please/ film this, anyone who tries it.

My father in law, brother in law and I laid two cobblestone sidewalks through the front gardens and a 35' drive way for a historical home he is renovating.
While is was a pain on my back placing all those stupid pavers and bricks in place, it sincerely wasnt that hard.

Unfortunately we didnt film it. But its been three years ago and still looks fantastic.

To each their own and all that stuff.

Hey, I've rewired about a quarter of my house thus far. It wasn't hard, you should try it*


*no you shouldn't, jackass

Yes. Strange spirits move about in the copper. If you make them angry they will burn down your house.

Or get a book of basic wiring diagrams and a multi-meter, or take a class on basic electrical work at your local community college and save yourself a ton on money.

Where's the sweet spot with home improvement?  I'm very interested in learning to do some projects (in an academic sense), but can't get past the fact that my time has value.  I also have this paranoia that I'm going to somehow do something really stupid that will cost twice as much to remedy.  I'd like to start by taking my bathroom to studs and redoing the shower, floor, and vanities, but don't know what I can and can't handle.  What moisture barrier do you use?  Where?  What about proper ventilation?  What size fan?  What about wall tile?  So many questions!

When is it best to just hire a pro and when can I risk trying and failing for the sake of learning a few new skills?

Most "renovation" type things on the inside of your house are completely doable yourself if it comes after the studs. The problem is time, money, and tools. Most people don't want an unusable bathroom for two months while they fumble their way through renovations.

Nebu, I have a similar situation.  My rule of thumb is basically to not tear apart something that I cannot reassemble before I will need it.  I also don't do things that will only happen in a reasonable timeframe if someone else does them.  The rebuild of my porch decking, for example, is something that I thought I could get wrong and that would also take a long time.  I decided to pay some old guys $5800 to take care of it in three days; looks far, far better than I think I could have done and I didn't have to take a vacation from work to do it.

Easily within my abilities are things like toilet repair, faucet repair, laying that drainpipe (I assume), and so on.  For cutting wood, I need more practice before I can make something look nice.  For electrical, I don't have the time to learn it myself, and OJT might kill me.  Same with plumbing since it might be easy enough to work with copper pipe but if there is a fuck up then I'd like someone who is insured to be at fault.

Your time has value has only been a good argument to me if you can't or don't want to do the work.  "My time has value so I don't change my oil" really means "I can't be bothered to learn how, so fuck it." when I say it.  The same holds true for building your own computer and home repair.  If you look at it as "I want to learn how to do this, it's something I'm interested in, so I won't do xyz" instead of "I HAVE to do this to save money," your perspective changes.

In short, don't learn if it's just about saving money, only if you want the skill set.

The guys who do this for a living really want you to think it's complicated.  We do this because it's the way we make money.  Truth is, if it were all that complicated there'd still be mandatory apprentice-journeyman-master levels for all trades (like for electricity and plumbing) and you wouldn't see a guy who was hired 3-4 years earlier running the show on many houses with little to no oversight.  The real difficulty is on the business end of things that you won't be concerned about as the homeowner doing their own work.

Will you be as fast as a true pro? No, because you don't have the experience and practice to draw on.  A tile job a pro can get done in half a day might take you a weekend or two.  Part of that is because you're human and most of us flake out in the middle of things at home because "hey it's right here, I can get back to it quick."  There's a ton of distractions at your house that a pro can ignore because, hey, it's not their damn house.  They don't have to answer the phone, get the mail, start dinner, let the dog out or check F13.  They're working.

The rest of it is just research and practice. The guys who do it for a living screwed up, but got paid for it or learned from a buddy how to cover it up for 2-3 years.  Hell, there's sites out there with tons of pictures of how phenomenally some of these "professionals" have fucked up because they were incompetent, lazy, or just too fucking cocksure to crack open a book or call someone with a little more knowledge than themselves.  Home inspector sites are a good place for such pics.

You also have the advantage of being brighter than most citizens so you're not apt to make stupid mistakes.  Structure is basic vector physics, "no big deal" right?  Well, you'd be surprised how many stories I've heard of people cutting holes in bearing walls, knocking out columns in the basement "because they got in the way" or cutting out large sections of foundation to install a window or door, with no additional support above.  

If you're like Nerf and willing to go to the mat wrestling with someone just as crazy and willing to say "No, you never specified xyz" then yeah, you'll have the fallback of suing if and when they screw up.  The reality is that will take years and more money to resolve so most folks just pay another contractor to fix what the first guy did.  I hate to get down on guys in the field, but the reality is residential folks are a dime a dozen and there's a reason most are doing low-end residential instead of high-end or commercial.  Unless they're just starting out or simply have no ambition the guys who are good float up into the other fields where the pay's much better.


Wow.. I rambled for a bit there.  Anywho, my breaking point is electric wiring, large concrete areas and plumbing. Anything else I'll do myself, including rough framing. Wiring and Plumbing require permits and calcs that are reviewed so I know the guys doing them know more than I do.  Concrete is a mess and anything beyond patching or post footings I'd rather have professionally mixed.   Big framing (decks, trellises, additions) has to be permitted, but charts for headers, joists and nailing patterns are in the code books if you don't know how to do the calcs yourself.  Small framing (which is supposed to be permitted but most homeowners ignore that) like basement finishes or bathroom renovation are just a matter of planning, measuring and cutting.

You're wrong. I'm perfectly proficient in basic car maintenance, but it's worth paying someone to have someone change my oil. Because I don't feel like doing it. It's messy, a hassle, and I don't own a driveway so I'd have to do it in the parking lot.

Paying someone is not an admission of laziness or fear of the unknown. Sometimes, you just don't feel like dealing with that shit.

I'd probably hire someone to work on my septic system too.

Makes sense now that you mention Boyle. (I haven't thought about that in 20 years, wow.)  Have you looked at electric tankless instead?   Seems like you'd be paying a lot more in LP costs over time.


I don't know the specifics of the code here, but lacking any more detail than that I'd be suspicious.  You did say it was two plumbers who said this, though.  

I get the corrosion thing now. I seem to recall hearing that the convection loops require replacing the anodized rods more often.  The rods also protect the heating elements, IIRC, so that might have saved the tank there. Too late now, obviously.


The slope is mostly due to a water leak discovered during construction.  The backfill was dug out, more tar put on the foundation wall, a drainpipe was put next to the footing, and the backfill replaced.  It's basically a mild depression in what might otherwise be a flat space that quickly slopes away from the house about six feet out.  I haven't noticed any dirt coming out of the end of the pipe but it's possibly just filling up with dirt/sand by now.  I'm trying to decide if I need to put the drainpipe along the length of the foundation wall so that it emerges close to the existing one, or maybe put it perpendicular to the foundation wall and have it be an eyesore in the yard.  An advantage to going parallel is that I can also tie in the AC condensation outflow, since that also emerges from the house in that area.

After I put the pipe in, I will have bought time until my wife's imagined patio takes shape, which would actually cover that entire place with a slab if it turns out as I think it will.[/quote]

A water leak in the foundation during construction then, ok. If I understand right the 2nd backfill settled differently, probably because it's different fill material.  Hopefuly it's not that the drain tile they put in was crushed when the refilled.  :awesome_for_real:  If they did it right, it shouldn't be filling up with sand & dirt, but I'm wiling to bet it wasn't done right. You're supposed to cover such pipes with 12" of gravel and then lay a filter material on top of that to trap dirt.  Most guys I've talked to always seem to think the filter material is useless and leave it out, meaning dirt just percolates into the gravel over time and down into the pipe, negating the whole system.

So the pipe doesn't go along the whole length of the foundation anyway?  This is in addition to the footing drain that was already there, right?  Ah the wonders of construction, so easy to show in pictures, so hard to describe in text.


On the HVAC front.. do you have a furnace in the house? That was the simple question that I should have asked in the beginning.

If I understand how they're built correctly, the fan on a heat pump spins because it's hooked to the motor that runs the refrigerant compressor. The fluid cycles in the opposite direction for cooling, so it helps exhaust heat in the summer but spins uselessly in the winter.  Did you ever get a tech to come out and look at it?

That's the "don't want to do the work" part in the first line.  I wasn't meaning to imply laziness, only that as an excuse it's often used as a cop-out.  Just say you don't want to do it or don't have the time to do it.

Thanks for taking the time.  I do appreciate the input. 

My basic premise is that I'd really like to learn for the sake of adding to my skill set.  I can rebuild a car engine, but I've never tackled home jobs.  Since my house has 3 bathrooms and I live alone, remodeling my bathroom isn't a problem from a time standpoint.  It's more an irrational fear that I'll fuck it up and end up costing myself more by fixing it.  I also have the problem of being a researcher for a living.  I have a tendency to research shit to death before giving things a try.  The term over-engineering may very well apply to me.  The advantage I can see to being a pro is that you know which things require attention to detail and which you can fly by the seat of your pants on.  As a chemist, I know what needs my attention and what I can just approximate.  It's a valuable skill to have in any field. 

Perhaps I should start with a few home improvement books.  Anyone recommend something for a bathroom/master closet renovation?

Another advantage to being a "pro", Nebu, is that you have the tools necessary for the job readily available.  Things such as cutting tile and even much of reasonable carpentry work requires specialized tools.  So you either have to rent or buy, which will increase the overall output for the job.  I've been accumulating tools over the years, so I can basically complete almost any job I need to at this point. 

As for the time issue, I would say certainly don't do this stuff if you don't think you'll enjoy it and have the money to pay someone else.  I find projects to be enjoyable, but I've gotten in over my head a time or two and wish that I hadn't taken on a particular project.  Then it becomes the exact opposite of fun and may become more expensive to boot. 

The trick is knowing how much of a perfectionist to be.

Texture on walls will hide a multitude of sins.

Time I've got at the moment and I'm glad to share.  (It's a distraction and I'm really sick of learning Revit and modeling old stuff at the moment.  :heartbreak:)

I always liked the Time-Life bookseries. (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_44?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=time-life+home+repair+and+improvement+series&sprefix=time-life+home+repair+and+improvement+series)  Your library should have 'em. Fun thing about homes is that not much has changed in the basics, just the materials.

There's also a Reader's Digest DIY Home Improvement (http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Do---Yourself-Manual/dp/0895773783/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1297195124&sr=8-3) book.   I've got their home repair one that, while a little spartan, has seen me through a lot of troubleshooting for small electronics and stuff over the years.  I imagine the home improvement one is similar.

Home Depot offers classes and workshops, too, if you want to get a little hands-on before tackling something.  There's also url=http://www.hometime.com/home.html]Home Time.com[/url].  They're one of the oldest (if not The oldest) DIY shows out there and despite sometimes seeming a little goofy, they do like to reinforce when you should talk to a pro vs trying something yourself for bigger jobs AND give tips on saving time and where the details matter.  Since it's winter I'd recommend finding out when they're on your local PBS and watching a few shows before it warms up.   Like Ghost said, if you're not into it, it just causes more headaches.

What Ghost mentions about tools is a concern as well.  Tool rental can be fairly cheap, but does add-up.


Truth!  But remember no texturing will cover crooked tiles!

My work usually requires a lot of texture.   ;D

I once wound up rebuilding an entire bathroom after just trying to stop the shower from leaking hot water  :uhrr:  Don't be afraid of messing something up, unless you're literally doing something like playing with fire.

I like the Black & Decker books for reference.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Complete-Guide-Wiring/dp/1589234138
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Complete-Guide-Plumbing/dp/1589233786
http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Codes-Homeowners-Electrical/dp/1589234790 (also talk to the city or visit the library for local and state codes!)

For drywalling, Myron is the man:

http://www.amazon.com/Drywall-Professional-Techniques-Great-Results/dp/B002BWQ54K

Your best bet is to hit the local library and browse through the books and find which tend to speak to your style the best, which are easy to understand, lay out the information in the way you best soak it up (I'm visual). Also hit up the book store to see a wider range of the newer books. I like the linked books for my shelf, but for most other stuff I borrow the library's copy. I'll take out a stack of 20 books or so when working through a project, the library saves me a substantial amount of money.

I also have the reader's digest guide that Merusk linked. It's a great introduction to all sorts of random crap in your house. Lots of full-color illustrations.

Electric, as in cars, is pitiful.  Also LP is cheaper than electricity for me.  More on this shortly.


Ha ha, heh... heeeeh.


I don't have a furnace, I live in Georgia. :why_so_serious: Really, though, when the heat pump isn't doing anything it uses strip heating, or typical heating elements.  This is more demanding on electricity, of course.

Today I had my favored guy, Jimmy, come out and take a look.  I think Jimmy is awesome.  He's smart and not afraid to explain things.  He's into HVAC like Hank Hill is into propane and propane accessories.

Summary is that the motor was done for.  He tested the board and it was fine.  He also happened to have a Emerson motor in his van which fit, cheaper than a Trane motor at only ~$350.  God, electric motors are where you pay the money on anything.  I'm glad I did not try it because of having to find a motor and then determining how to wire it up, since the colors were different.  Also I would not have known how to test the circuit board.

The construction of the unit does not couple the fan to the compressor.  More modern models, per what small bit I have learned, used multispeed fans and do fancy stuff like start the fan before the compressor kicks in.  Both of mine have a two-speed motor, for example.  I suppose that there are probably some small/cheap models which share an axle or something.

While he was there, I asked Jimmy if it was possible to convert a HVAC from electric to LP.  Apparently not only is it possible, but it is a fantastic idea.  I also mentioned the quote from the plumber about the tankless, and guess what - Jimmy has installed several tankless water heaters which run off LP.  He told me about how he recently helped his boss run PEX tubing under his floor on about a eight-ten inch spacing which was then connected to a tankless heater.  They wired the thermostat to some sort of flow controller and now his boss has fancy foot warmers.  I told Jimmy that I would like a call from his boss to come out to my house, and also to not cash that check until Friday. :oh_i_see:

In other news, just a few minutes ago I replaced a floodlight in a recessed can and I'm getting nothing.  Once again I wish I had bought a multimeter.  I'm really going to do it this time.

When it comes to electric wiring references, two books really stand out and both are available at the local box stores.

the  UGLY  (http://www.amazon.com/Uglys-Electrical-References-2011-George/dp/0763790990/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297226998&sr=1-7)reference guide (way more on the technical side)

the Wiring Simplified (http://www.amazon.com/Wiring-Simplified-Based-National-Electrical/dp/0971977933/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1297227294&sr=1-1) (practical guide to wiring)

The Master electrician I used to work with stuck that simplified book in my hands and told me it's all I really need to do whatever around the house electrical maintenance and improvements. Of course, I had him over a few times for beers on college game day and he "inspected" the work while he was around.

Nebu, if you like researching shit I think you will do fine with home improvement. Plumbing is easy. These days with steel braided plumbing lines like this (http://www.plumbingsupply.com/flexes.html) its simple.
Really the only thing you dont want to screw up is putting in the barrier around the drain and floor of a walk in shower. Tile and concrete are not waterproof and you have to make sure you get a seamless water proof barrier put in place.

Other than that the only hard thing for me is Im not visually artistic in anyway so trying to figure out the over all theme of the bathroom and lay out was challenging for me.

There are some awesome books on general home repairs and home improvement projects. Many local community colleges and community centers also offer classes for the DIY home owner.