f13.net

Well, I'm sure everyone who cared saw the extensive coverage (http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/11/windows-phone-7-launch-guide/) of the Windows Phone 7 launch. I really like the look of this OS, but if the lack of interest on this forum is any indication, it's arriving too late.

With their focus on gaming and xboxlive tie-ins, I'm surprised they're not launching a device with controls other than touchscreen and gyro... would seem to me that going after their xbox audience would be a good plan.

The fact that it'll arrive with no copy and paste is kinda silly, but supposedly they're adding it ASAP.

I think it looks pretty nice and it'll be a consideration when my contract is up. I'm also curious what the next Palm device is going to be. I really liked WebOS when I had my Palm Pre Plus.

My verizon contract's up in April, I'm hoping for the new stuff to have been in the market long enough to have a clear idea of the pros and cons of all of them by that time.  Microsoft's phone looks nifty, but without some idea of the quality of the programs that'll be coming out for it, I'm far from sold at the moment.

My AT&T contract is up this month, and I'm really looking forward to jumping ship from iOS to WP7 - I'm really digging what I've seen of the UI so far and MS seems to be making a real go at the mobile market this time.

I like that they're splitting the difference between Apple's 'one true way' and Android's 'wild west' OS/UI/hardware market - I don't much care for most of the 'improvements' that handset makers and carriers are putting on a fair number of their Android offerings and hate the inability to easily update to the latest Android version until the carrier deems my handset worthy.

Also, I literally won't be able to uninstall iTunes fast enough once I no longer need it to keep my phone updated.

Right now, I'm split between the Samsung Omnia and HTC Trophy. Former looks more minimalistic and better, latter has SLCD (fuck Pentile).

The HTZ Mozart looks really nice, but I do like the indestructible display on the Samsung Focus.

Seriously? Somebody is planning to buy one? Non-ironically?

Sure, if it works and gets good support from main providers, such as Audible, etc, why not? I'm sick to death of iTunes' stupid design, and although I do like some things about the droid, sometimes its nice to have something that 'just works'. I'm greatful to Apple for their pioneering efforts, but its time for something that neither requires extensive fiddling (droid) or so dumbed down it prevents the user from fixing the danged thing without visiting an Apple 'Genius' bar.

I don't play games on the phone, other than, say, solitaire, and I'm just interested in a email client that has the ability to play music files, has a good podcast bank and can handle audio books.

Only thing that bugs me is that I really like the Dell Venue Pro, but T-Mobile sucks in my area.

Well, what attracts me is very specific. I noodle around with XNA programming, and WinPho7 runs XNA. I like the idea of the Zune pass. I really like the metro design. And Steve Jobs seriously rubs me the wrong way.

Not that Balmer is an oasis of zen meditation either tho.

The Windows Phone 7 must be quite different from past Windows phones if it really "just works". I believe that when I see it.

The fact that they acknowledge WinMo prior to 7 was a piece of shit gives me some hope. They seem very geared toward connecting everything and giving people options.

True, true. But Balmer doing monkey dance just makes me laugh. He seems like a socially inept guy who's trying too hard. Jobs just comes over as an asshole.

Quick startup times it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JGHwaHcdKA

I'm looking forward to getting this when my contract is up and I switch from VZW to AT&T next Feb (consolidating my cell phone with my GF's for cheaper service for both of us, unless Verizon has IPhones by then and she switches to Verizon).  I like what I see with the OS.

It's not silly.  It's blazing fucking retarded. 

To each their own.  I rarely use copy and paste on my Droid, and the rare times I have tried to use it on a small bit of text (meaning not using copy all) it's a royal pain in the ass and I end up frustrated. 

Same with my iPhone 4. Cut and paste is more of a pain than anything else. I don't think I've successfully used it yet.

Yeah, it sucks, but at least when I have to use it the function is there.  Not having cut and past is pretty bush league for a smart phone.

It depends on the reasoning behind it. If it boils down to them not being happy with the implementation they originally came up with, I'd say it's a smart move. If they just didn't bother, then I totally agree.

It worked for the iPhone, right?   :awesome_for_real:

I cut and past on my iPhone almost every day without a problem.  Maybe you guys just need more practice.   :grin:

At release?  (http://forums.f13.net/Smileys/classic/emot_grin.gif)

If you're implying that the iPhone didn't have cut and paste at release that is largely irrelevant.  The iPhone has it now and it has worked great since they put it in.  There's no reason Microsoft can't put in cut and paste right now. 

Yes, but copy|cut and paste has been in the iPhone for almost 2 years now.

And its implementation is a good one, even if the initial grokking is awkward — but once you get used to it, it's almost less brainless than using the mouse. It's just that recognition that you have to hold your finger down for a second or two to get the action going.

Releasing a phone without that feature or doing it in a bungled and/or disjointed manner is a failure.

That said, the bigger issue for a phone that I am told is actually pretty nice is the lack of apps — Microsoft may poo poo apps and lampoon smartphone users, but people like using apps on their phone. And if they're going to go after the market of non-smartphone users who just want a simple phone, then pricing will have to be in accordance with that posture.

The Windows 7 phone OS actually sounds great for me.  I have an iPad, shittons of macs and macbooks and Windows 7 machines.  I don't need every electronic device I have to do the same shit and have been threatening to go back to a very basic cell phone.  Plus all the features on the iPhone other than the games seem to drain battery life and I have trouble with that as it is.  I may actually check out one of these phones.

Understood, but the question here is on pricing — $200 for a Windows 7 phone (HTC coming in November) and comparable monthly fee for a nice, app-less, copy-and-paste-less phone?

It needs to be priced cheaper than that to succeed.

Yup, this is all still sounding very familiar.   :awesome_for_real:

All I'm saying is that the feature set on release is irrelevant to long-term success.  A half-baked initial release just means that they can double-dip from the fanboys and/or get an easy publicity bump when they finish adding basic functionality and do a re-release.

But it's not the same.

Windows is hawking it's "feature-less-ness"…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHlN21ebeak

Apple, in contrast, featured commercials even back in '07 upon initial product launch, that the iPhone could do all, and take the place of PDA, mp3 player as it integrated into one phone. And then later, after adding AppStore, now features apps in every ad.

All I'm saying is it better have cut and paste if they expect me to replace my iPhone with it. 

It was only a matter of time before this thread devolved into another iPhone flamewar.  Luckily since we're talking about "at release" everything is fair game.


 :why_so_serious:

You are the one that transformed the thread into iPhone hater mode.

What relevance is it the state of cellphone tech ~3 years ago for today's market?

Like it or not, Apple transformed the smartphone market — you can draw a line and the market radically changed afterwards. Android and Apple are the big players now, with their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, others are being left behind in the dust (including RIM and Nokia) in comparison to those two big players.

Pretty long but thorough WP7 review up on Ars (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/10/windows-phone-7-the-ars-review.ars).

(edit)


The summary at the end could have come straight from a 2007 iPhone review if you swap the brand names around:


Seriously, if you're doomcasting the thing for lack of copy and paste support, you're on the same team as Maddox McNeckBeard up there in the spoiler saying how superior his Nokia was because he could use it to reboot his web server.  When Apple transformed the smartphone market, it also proved that feature checklists don't mean shit.  It's going to come down to how well the thing is marketed, how shiny it looks, and how easy it is to use for people who aren't already using smartphones.

Put my preorder in via Best Buy a couple of days ago - I find myself eagerly awaiting my new toy.  :)  Apparently MS has a long road ahead of them, though - the staff at BB told me that mine was the first WP7 handset preorder they'd taken, and based on how many people were consulted and long it took for them to do it, I thoroughly believe them.

I don't understand what the problem is.  The iPhone is a very good product that does a lot of things well.  It's not perfect, however any new product, e.g. A Windows 7 based phone, is going to have to compete with both the iPhone and android.  And me saying that not having cut and paste is fucking stupid is not doom casting.  The phones will probably do fine, once they add in all the shit that is missing.

This actually sounds like the comparison of WoW to any new MMO that is coming out   ;D

Really?

Most all of those points are invalid now, or total rubbish even at inception — smudgy screen haha.

Just look at the market, post-iPhone, where all the makers transformed their products to be iPhone-like with equivalent touch UI (even RIM, unsuccessfully thus far).

And customers have overwhelmingly voted for iPhone and Android offerings.

Some Windows 7 Phone Reviews:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39768813/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/
http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/10/20/5324739-microsoft-launches-windows-phone-7

Friendly reviews from MS friendly sites…

A more reliable reviewer:
http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/10/windows-phone-7-the-ars-review.ars

That's the point.   :argh:

The point is that all reviews, even the negative ones (for the most part) all say the same thing.  The OS is polished and is a very very good base.  The OS has a lot going for it, and almost all the reviewer's gripes are with what the phone doesn't have rather while what the phone does have is extremely polished (except SMS really).  Yes, in it's current stage it may not be something that everyone ditches their Android or Iphones for but it has a lot of things going for it, and a great potential for the future with updates.

They don't need to change Iphone and Android users with the first release.  They just have to work on the 95% of the cell phone market that doesn't use smart phones yet, while building it up to where Iphone and Android users will be more likely to use it. 

Shut the fuck up about all your fucking iPhones.  :uhrr:

Also, overnight shipping here in Belgium means "leave it rot in the sorting hub for a whole day and whoops there's the weekend, we don't work then either". Otherwise I'd have my hands on a HTC Trophy today.  :oh_i_see:

If they're working on the people that don't already have smart phones they might want to lower their price point.  The pricing definitely scares some people off.  And Microsoft should definitely make sure their integration is as good for this as Apple. 

I'm intrigued by this OS and may actually try one out (once they have cut and paste  :why_so_serious:).

How long are they going to keep this project at the forefront? I mean it took them less than 6 months to kill the Kin, another underfeatured, overpriced phone.

That is not to say that Win7 phone will fail. I could care less either way as I don't own a smartphone and at this point, still don't see a need for one for me. Just wondering.

From what I've read, Kin was a separate project run by part of the entertainment devices (XBox/Zune) team and J. Allard that largely was killed because of WP7.  I'd almost argue that MS killing Kin (And effectively lighting all that money on fire) is indicative of just how important WP7 is to them.

WP7 is a longterm project. Microsoft won't be killing it off anytime soon.

And C&P is coming early next year, so stress less. :-P

Besides, Silverlight and XNA, om-nom-nom. ;D

That fangirl Thurrott's claiming that there's an update inbound this year already. Not including copypasta tho.

--edit: Also, install Shazam ASAFP, to get unlimited tags, before they revoke that offer and make you pay a sub for more than 5 tags a month.

Kin died because Verizon was run by greedy retarded people who tried to charge a full data plan for a phone meant for kids to post pictures on Facebook.  Nobody was gonna pay a hundred bucks a month for such a barebones phone, surprise surprise.

I've been using my HTC Trophy a while now. I really like WP7 and it's a joy to use. There is some minor functionality missing you might consider for granted if you're coming from the other two big mobile OSes, but the system's pretty solid and I'm sure it'll get up to snuff rather sooner than later.

Independently of that, even being the same Snapdragon as in my old Nexus, it's way smoother, has a better DAC with less noise apparently, as well having a SLCD screen which is sharper than AMOLED (with still sufficient black levels), which is kinda important, since it's so text heavy. So it was worth it.

Elaborate, please? You can omit the omittance of C&P.

Things like no separate volume sliders for everything including media playback, no custom ringtones (except sold via on-device marketplace), no scrubbing in Zune player apart from FWD/RWD keys, no universal search, etc. That sort of small things. The first two I want definitely fixed, the rest doesn't matter that much.

Other than that, the back/Windows button navigation behavior is a little ass backwards. Hitting the back key on the first screen of the app quits it. Hitting the Windows key however sends it to sleep, first screen or not. If you try to go back to a suspended app via tile or app list, it restarts the application, where as hitting the back key resumes it. I figure that'll be changed, too.

Real multitasking beyond running behind lockscreen would be nice. Including some sort of service architecture, to run the core part of the application permanently and separate from the UI. Alone for being able to do live tiles without resorting to push server infrastructure.

They released so many of these phones...  How is the trophy different from the mozart?

- 3.8" screen instead of 3.7".
- 5mpix LED flash instead of 8mpix Xenon flash.
- Aluminum frame with plastic back instead of alu unibody.
- Way better external speaker.

That's about it. The rest of the hardware is identical. Also, it looks better in person than on the press pictures. The polished aluminum trim makes it look goofy in the pictures, but isn't on a real device.

Thanks, interesting. I keep going back and forth on whether to get a mozart or an omnia 7. It's all about AMOLED versus SLCD. You're the first person I've run into who is on the SLCD side, so that's interesting. I buy the argument that crisp text is important on a tiny device.

Thanks for the coverage. I'll see if my budget can support getting a Trophy. :-)

Well, if you're going from regular LCD to AMOLED, you're like "whoa, everything's so fucking colorful" and like it for a while. Then when the honeymoon's over, you start noticing things like color fringing on text and start focusing on the pentile matrix. If you've still decent eye sight, you will notice some sort of grid on bright surfaces. All thanks to half resolution on red and blue subpixels.

Going from there to SLCD, you've like "whoa, the colors are so much better (i.e. realistic and not in your face vibrant) and the text's fucking sharp". We'll see in a while, but I like this so much more.

Obviously, black on AMOLED works wonders when it's really dark, you have zero light bleeding. On the other hand, SLCD is so much better than regular LCD, light bleeding is barely noticable even when it's dark. Viewing angles are also much better.

Example AMOLED vs SLCD from Engadget. Shows my point about text (there should be an image, if my server doesn't act funnily):

(http://www.storageserver.be/images/amoled.jpg)

The experience varies from person to person.

Some people just cannot see the pentile patterning on amoled displays and they're totally happy.

Other people (I'm one of them) find it incredibly annoying.  The red/blue fringing drives me nuts.

You should definitely take a look at one before you buy, just in case.

FYI, from Microsoft

Anyone wants a MCP style Lights Off clone? I was bored.  :drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OjR5JgTAx0

Cut out iPhone arguments.  Shouldn't have commented on the topic. Go me.

I played with one of these at an AT&T store for a bit.  It was definitely slick, but gave me a vaguely creepy 'but how do I use it as a PHONE?' feel.  To be fair, all touchscreen-only phones do that to me; my smartphone's an older one with actual buttons for making calls.  Having to actually look at the screen to make and answer calls doesn't feel right.  The phones apparently have great voice dialing built in, though, so maybe I can just circumvent the issue entirely using a headset.

So, putting a micro-SD card in the phone permanently invalidates it for use in any other device, including your computer or camera? Well, that's nice. Now that's the Microsoft I know and love.

I would care if it weren't for the fact that the reason for this is that the phone is integrating the SD card into its normal operation and not just as "Do you want to save this picture on..." and Memory Card is an option.

I've been using the HTC Surround for a little over a week now, and I love this thing, despite the kinda chunky form factor.  The integration of all my contacts (Facebook, Google, Windows Live, etc) into one place is great, and the UI as a whole is (as noted elsewhere) extremely slick and snappy.  Live tiles are nice when they're available, and there really seems to be a lot of thought into what information is exposed at high levels and accessed via swiping left/right, while more detail or actual actions are accessed via presses.  I'd worry about the top-level app list getting too big if they didn't cordon off games into their own tile - as it is, it's fine.

My biggest gripe is that I have no browser buttons or address bar aside from the hardware 'back' button in landscape mode, and that the browser loads pages somewhat slowly, though once they're loaded, everything is super responsive.  Also, while it's functionally similar, the use of a low-res version of the page instead of the checkerboards I got used to on my iPhone when scrolling quickly just 'feels' better for some reason.

Also:  Achievements earned via phone.   :awesome_for_real:

Sounds like it's more an issue that very few devices make use of the "password" feature of sdcards, and thus the "low level erase to restore to factory state" option isn't available readily.  I saw one of the techblogs mention that some Nokia phones have an option for this.  No reason it shouldn't also be doable with a desktop PC... just a simple matter of software...

Engadget has a good writeup here (http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/17/windows-phone-7s-microsd-mess-the-full-story-and-how-nokia-ca) about what's causing it.

FYI: http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/06/windows-phone-7-shown-copying-and-pasting-on-video/

Like it would have taken so much more effort trying to highlight like a whole paragraph. It's like these guys aren't even trying.

So does anyone here have a WP7 phone and if so what are you thoughts on it (now that it's been out for 4 or so months)?

My phone's power button doesn't work anymore (so I can't manually sleep the phone, and I have to wake the phone up by sliding open the keyboard), Verizon refuses to fix it since it's 1 month out of the 1 year warranty and the phone insurance wants me to pay $89 for a refurbished phone. 

I'm eligible for an upgrade but I was hoping to hold off until later in the year, where I could see how WP7 evolved, or the new pre is, etc... but I don't know how long I can stand this (I have already pocket-texted people due to having to wait till it times out for the screen to turn off). 

I've been using the HTC Surround since launch, and I'm pretty happy with it.  The UI is slick and intuitive, and overall functionality is pretty solid.  Being able to ditch iTunes for good was nice, too.  The app/game selection is pretty limited if you're coming from iOS, and searching the marketplace is still pretty hopeless from the phone.  The media player is great, and the browser is pretty good, though it really doesn't like certain pages for some reason.

The only real issue I've had concerns the alarm function - if you ignore (sleep through) the alarm long enough, the phone becomes nonresponsive when you finally do kill the alarm and requires a reboot.  Aside from that, I'm really happy with it.  I'd also pay a significant sum of money to trade in the capacitive buttons at the base of the screen for real ones, but that's not explicitly an OS issue.

I'm not too worried about the app/game market, as my phone (Motorola Droid) is mostly used for texting, web browsing, email, and music.  As long as all that works well I'd be happy (or so I think)

All of that works well. The e-mail client is pretty neat, altho it doesn't have an unified inbox.

Don't expect network dependent apps to be available, you know like instant messengers and such, because there isn't any multitasking yet, and most importantly, no fucking socket support. You'll have to wait for the Mango update to deliver these APIs, which comes theoretically mid-fall this year. Speaking of which, don't expect frequent and timely updates.

Yeah I've seen the current update fiasco heh. 

I think i'll try the focus for a few weeks and see how it works out.  If I don't think i'll like it I'll just trade it in for the Atrix.

I'm loving Windows Phone 7. My wife got an iPhone 4 and I got a Mozart at almost exactly the same time. I set up both phones, literally with two laptops side by side transferring music and setting up podcasts, etc. So I got I think a pretty good comparison between them.

Advantage WP7:

• Much more integrated feel - the hub concept actually works out pretty well. The apps in the iPhone aren't connected in the same way
• The Zune software is much easier to use and more responsive the iTunes, at least on a PC. I would never, ever have guessed this as an advantage, but it's a big one.
• Wireless sync: phone syncs to the PC via wireless. No stupid USB cable required.
• Skydrive integration. Again, I didn't anticipate this would be a big deal, but I use it quite a bit.

Advantage iPhone:

• Much more mature platform. I have to reboot my phone about once a week because of crashes. My wife has never had to reboot her iPhone. Lots of missing features/rough edges in WP7. These are well-documented around the web.
• More apps. WP7 is closing in on 10k apps, and most of the major ones are there. But every now and then you run into some very special-purpose and useful app that the iPhone has and WP7 doesn't.
• Bigger add-on market. More choice of cases, docks, car integration and all that stuff.[/i]

For my part, I'm very happy. The superior UI and app organization is enough to put up with the various shortcomings. At the very least, it's a platform people should be considering.

WP7 uses IE7 as its browser and I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot poll. It may get IE9 end of year...may. And it's likely phones made prior to that change won't get support. The developer ecosystem they're eventually shooting for is Silverlight and IE9. From a front-end developer standpoint (browsers, mobile, etc.) I can tell you that's not going to fly and there's no way WP7 will have even a fraction of the developer ecosystem that is available on the three big boys (BB, iOS, Android).

There's other factors and this is the only one I can speak to from my own expertise, but I do know it's an important one longterm. It's kind of a hoist up by your bootstraps thing. App selection (and quality) is a large factor in user uptake, and app selection is driven by developer ecosystem, which is driven by potential market, etc. It's possible that by paying off high quality developers (or doing it internally) to do an amazing job of seeding the system in order to bring in a large set of early adopters (this is essentially how Apple originally did it, plus other Apple-unique factors), but that's not a gamble I see industry insiders making at this point. The platform itself has some critical fundamental flaws and gaps that they're a far way out from potentially resolving.

I'm actually really liking my new Samsung Focus and I'm pretty impressed with WP7 as a whole.  I haven't encountered too many apps that I am looking for that aren't available, but I don't use too many apps in general (even on Android I didn't).  My fiance and her roommate (both Iphone 3gs and 4 users respectively) have played with my phone and are thinking of switching to it as well when their contracts up (partially because they are bored with the iPhone and want something different and partially because they like the FB integration).

As of now I am really enjoying the user experience and the amount of polish.  Although, a lot of people won't really get why it's a good experience just by seeing pictures, it really takes using the device to really get how everything works together. 

To bump the thread, since it's so goddamn exciting... It appears that Microsoft is teaming up with Samsung to deliver one or more devices for the time when the Mango update releases. Nice to finally hear that something's going in the Windows Phone ecosystem. I figure, the showcase device will be an Exynos based 4.3" SuperAMOLED+ device, since those two things are the hot shit for smartphones at Samsung right now.

The HTC Arrive is also poised to debut on Sprint next week, and some sites already have some hands on vids.  

I'm going to be keeping my Focus instead of trading it in for an Android.  I'm liking it enough.  

*edit*

Btw, until we get NoDo with the improved market searching, some people found a trick for the current marketplace search.  If you want to search for an application, add "application" to the search or if you want a song add "song" (e.g. "weather application" or "weather song").  This will restrict your marketplace searches to just applications or just songs at the current time.

Guess that's kind of advertising, but my roommate owns a win7 phone and found out it doesn't support group sms/e-mail in any fashion.
So he came up with an App (http://wp7applist.com/app/9652/group-sms) that is able to handle that.

You can send texts or emails to multiple people, you just can't can't create formal groups to repeat the same people quickly (though I couldn't do that without 3rd party apps in Android either). 

That pre-made groups is what he wanted really.
Android uses the groups you made in your Google account, no?

Maybe, I never noticed.  Actually I forgot Gmail contacts had groups until you just mentioned that.