f13.net

Any other Judoka here?

After some serious bugging by a friend, I joined his club and have been going for around 4 months.  I think "the gentle way" has to be some kind of in-joke, because I have been getting the crap beat out of me!  I seem to have some kind of minor injury every other week and half the club seems banged up at any given time. 

I had one tweaked shoulder that barely healed before I tweaked the other shoulder.  I learned about posting, the hard way, when my body twisted with my hand planted, causing some damage to tendons in my index and middle fingers that I'm finally getting over.  I had a 300 pounder fall on my leg, causing a bone bruise and soft tissue damage that's still nagging me.  Oh, and I have had my throat tweaked from chokes to where it hurts to swallow ("oh yeah, haha, that stops happening after a while...").

But it's pretty fun, even though after most practices I feel like someone stuck me in a bag and started wailing on me with a baseball bat.  I'm told that goes away too... after 9-12 months of regular practice =/  It's also maddeningly difficult - coordinating the hands with footwork and position. 

I mean, they show you a throw and you think, "Wow, I could pwn some peeps with this!" but then you try it at full speed, against a resisting opponent who knows what he's doing, and the results are laughable.  I could probably count the successful throws I've performed in randori(sparring) on one hand, and those were sloppy as hell.  Thankfully, the ground game is a little easier to pick up, so my ego isn't completely destroyed.

I really wish it were somehow possible to spar in any of these sorts of martial arts...without getting hurt. :oh_i_see:

Getting hurt is ironically one of the more valuable parts of martial arts practice.  Once you've spent enough time getting kicked, punched, and thrown around, you learn that a little brawling isn't going to be the end of the world.  Getting past the 'oh shit, I might get hurt!' hurdle is a valuable step.

Thankfully I've never been in any sort of fighting past high school, but I was in ample numbers of fights as a youth, and an unflinching approach to the fight made a significant difference.  My would-be tormentors were very abruptly less enthusiastic when I wasn't acting worried at the prospect of them taking a swing at me.  Most belligerent people aren't looking for a fight, they're looking for a victim.  And if you look like you're ready to give them a fight whether they want one or not, that sort of person is quick to leave.

Martial arts sorta fail quickly though if the other person is either armed or crazy.  A Chuck Norris might not sweat a guy with a knife, but I'm in no real hurry to wind up stabbed or shot if I can help it.

I mostly did aikido, but dabbled in judo and jujitsu on the side. Of the three I found people in judo classes got injured far more often. My theory at the time was that since judo was the only one that had actual rated win/lose competitions and a scoring system people were more likely to get carried away to get the wins.

I was part of a TKD class many years ago while still in high school.  One guy in my class split his time between judo and TKD; he was pretty much the toughest person I've ever met in person.  He wasn't huge, but had been slowly working his way up the ranks in both arts at the same time.  His theory was judo spends much of its time on the ground and TKD spends virtually all of its time on foot, so he's covered in either situation. 

Good luck, though.  These days I'm better off with yoga.  ;)

I did judo as a kid. As a kid, it was safe enough, mostly because kids just bounce. If I were flung from the shoulder now, oof.

Pick up an internal style down the road, it'll even the odds a fair bit.   :grin:

This. I studied Aikido for years and then dabbled in kendo, iaido, shotokan and muay thai here and there, the hardest part is accepting that you'll get hurt a little. After you get over that and learn what your body is capable of withstanding, it all gets a lot easier.

As for dealing with crazy people, you'll find most of them aren't as crazy as you'd think. And the ones that are, well, you also develop a pretty decent sense of when to get the fuck out of dodge.

Basically any time there's a sharp or powder weapon involved, I book it.  My martial arts training from years gone past was quite fun, but the one thing stressed the most was knowing your limits and that there is no shame in running away.  It was all about self defense and preservation.

And getting beat up while sparring was part of it.  I had my share of bruises and sore limbs, despite using pads.  It's funny, getting kicked in the crotch a few too many times actually makes it start to hurt less.

Substitute Judo with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu* and Taekwondo with Kickboxing/Muay Thai and that's MMA today.

* which itself is derived from Judo which is derived from Ju-Jitsu

I've been thinking of taking up BJJ to keep in shape. Though I imagine it's incredibly brutal.

How old are you, anyway?

Learning a new sport with "age" is kinda difficult. Last year, I've started riding mountain bike freeride/downhill. While I feel that I'm above average from what I see most others do (that also pretend to be in the scene, apart from the very few really skilled people), I still feel like an old geezer when trying to learn new stuff. And it's worse if you see some 9 year old kid casually jump off a 5 meter drop in a bike park, with a light dirt bike that has just front suspension, while you're shitting your pants with your big ass full suspension downhill bike, that rivals any MX bike suspension wise, while just thinking about trying it too. Then again, big air stuff like this isn't something you encounter on nature trails, even modified ones, so I don't sweat it... That much, anyway.

I'm 30.

--edit: Yeah, not exactly Judo related. Was just trying to make a point.

25, so I don't think I'll have too much of an issue picking something up. I don't think at least, the only thing I've ever taken up in any way was baseball. Which was really my mom's doing and I actually wanted to play hockey.

39. It gets harder. Especially when you remember how you used to shrug off injuries no problem and now a simple weekend of beach volleyball leaves you stiff for days.

36 Or sleeping.. how great is it to wake up and go, "WTF.. I was only asleep why is my shoulder kinked to the point my neck is stiff?!"

It's sad that at my age I already know what that's like. I have an extra disc in my lower spine which causes all kinds of nasty problems and if I'm too active my whole back shuts down for a few days to the point where laying down is uncomfortable.

Of course it doesn't stop me, but I'm less likely to just dive right into stuff like Judo or BJJ. I crossed Kickboxing and Muay Thai off the list when I realized all the weight shifting and balancing would probably ruin me.

Yeah well, picking up something might not be that much of an issue, altho I think with age, it gets harder to memorize the movements and such. I was more minding the things around the sport, e.g. the pain in both Judo and mountain biking. With age, you start to think more about consequences. While as of yet, all my faceplants were rather mild, the thought of something worse happening while trying more kinda stops me from doing so. I figure with martial arts, it'd be similar. It's one thing to plow your fists and legs into a training puppet or your padded defensive training partner, and an active (training) fight.

We had a bjj guy coming in to train for a while and he told me the judo workouts were kicking his ass and that he had puked 3 times at a previous practice that I did not attend.  Groundwork is tiring, but not nearly as much as the standup.

As to TripleDES' question, I'm 37 and the friend who brought me in is 43.  I was in pretty good shape going into it, but damn, I thought I was going to breeze the workouts and I was wrong. 

My cardio was good enough that I wasn't totally sucking wind, but the standup fatigues the shit out of my muscles.  I'm usually the guy who doesn't get a break during randori when we have an odd number of participants because other people weeny out and need another breather when it's my turn to sit.

Take up swimming.  Or SCUBA.

SCUBA has the downside of having to lug heavyish stuff about on your back. Unless you're on a nice boat somewhere warm where people carry the heavy stuff around for you, then it's awesome otherwise it can do your back a disservice if you're not careful. Swimming would be great though.

There's another option?   :awesome_for_real:

I've only had to lug my own tanks once, and that was for a shore dive prior to diving off a boat the rest of the week. I could skip shore dives from now on, but it wasn't that hard (it sits pretty squarely on your shoulders), and you don't have to go far before you start floating.

Water. My arch nemesis.

Yes, but diving in milk is a little weird.

In any direct physical confrontation (and by this I mean bare hands or improvised weapons, blades and guns are a little different), the winner is generally the last one to *stop fighting*.  Simply knowing that you can soak up a lot of pain and keep going is a big part of not being the loser (the first one to quit fighting).  So yes, getting your ass handed to you is a big part of the process, as my former sensei would say "Pain is the best teacher."  Amazing how many people who think they're badass will stop in shock after the first shot to the short ribs or back of the knee; "HOLY SHIT THAT HURTS!  THIS ISN'T FUN ANY MORE!"

--Dave

EDIT: "Pain is the best teacher" is especially true on Judo throws, where for every way to throw someone there's a corresponding way to get thrown that neutralizes the impact.  So if it hurts, you aren't doing it right.

Getting thrown once(on padded mats) doesn't really hurt if the throw and ukemi are good; not like a shot to the face or kick to the groin.  What hurts is waking up the next morning after a night where you had lots of cumulative banging.

After last practice, the other white belt was talking to the sensei and mentioned how beat up he felt the day after some practices.  This guy is at least 10 years younger than me, so I felt relieved.  I thought maybe I was feeling all beat due to my age.

It depends where you go.

If you were doing it in, say, Brazil, then yes because that is going to be their life and ticket to fame and fortune. Apparently they will grind in on every opportunity. Same with any school that has MMA stardom in their eyes.

If you find a sensible teacher or a school that is more technical in nature, things can go easier. Personally, I'd avoid any BJJ school that is strongly into BJJ as a valid self defence style: one-on-one it is great, but if you are lying on a guy trying to get a choke it's pretty easy for his friend to come up and kick you in the head... plus ground styles are lousy for any rough ground situation.

Another aspect is simply having practice. I'd put practice in the "gets into a lot of real fights" an edge over "sparring", but there's a lot to be said about just having experience sitting there with another person trying to hit you. Whether you're padded up and doing light impact or not.

Although the pain thing too -- proper martial arts should build up muscles in the right spots, and condition you to handle hits better. And teach you how to hit them where it hurts THEM, not you. Admittedly, in a real fight with adrenaline pumping and all you're probably not going to feel the finger bones you just cracked punching that guy in the face, but you'll notice it if you keep hitting with that hand.

I remember the first time I took a solid hit in sparring -- kick to the ribs, under my arm, that hit me as I was moving into it. No padding on the bottom of the foot, no padding on my ribs, and while he was cramped for room -- he didn't pull it because he thought I'd block, and I was too focused on hitting him. I felt my ribs bend, which is a weird ass sensation. Hurt like hell when it hit, but faded quickly. Strangely enough, the worst pain was the next day or the day later from abused muscles or falls.

Bruises from hands or feet I could ignore. I knew exacly how they'd occured and they generally only hurt if I poked them. An overused muscle, or a long bruise from a fall -- it'd hurt every time I moved.

Makes me want to take Judo, though. :)

There are some spots that muscles don't help - the joints and other pressure points.  I can dislocate/break your elbow with less than a pound of force.  Knees aren't too too much more.  Several styles get into that sort of thing.  Best to never get hit if you can help it, but being able to take a hit does buy you time, like Mahrin said - presuming it's not a hit somewhere vital.

One of the things I loved about the mixed-style I was in was that they seperated out self-defense and martial arts. Sparring was in 'martial arts'. Self-defense was simply brutal. "Eyes, throat, groin, knees" was the mantra and knees were everyone's primary target. Easy to break, cripples them and prevents them from chasing you, rarely defended well, and causes debilitating pain -- even more than a groin shot.

Even if you don't break it, a solid hit to the knee will slow them down.

Lots of emphasis on real world advice. Like "If handing over your wallet and watch means no fighting, hand it over". And, to the women, "Kicking a guy in the nads will NOT one-shot him if he's pissed enough. It'll probably slow him down, and it'll stop some guys". Generally, in the self-defense school, it was "attack and keep attacking until they stop moving or you get a solid chance to run". And we did lots of running.

I think it was because the style was heavily influenced by police and ex-military folks. They were brutally honest about knife and gun defense too. As in "You'll probably get shot" and "If he has a knife, and you take it away from him, you're going to be cut".

Sparring was a different matter, and lots of fun and good practice to get used to people attacking you, but self-defense was as realistic as they could make it.

Translation: Not that realistic at all.

The problem with lethal/crippling attacks is that you cannot practice them at full speed and force against a live, resisting opponent.

True. But they did their best --- tried to pair people up so the 5'2", 100lb girl had to deal with a 6'2", 220, all muscle brown belt who could take solid hits, for instance. People who attack you are rarely smaller than you are, and if they are, tend to be armed.

If you knew th moves -- you'd wear a cup, turn your head so you wouldn't get your face scratched, that sort of thing. But when possible, we'd make them hit hard enough to let go, and show off the real problems with strength/height disparity. (You can't depend on things like "being able to foot stomp them" if they're big enough to easily lift you off the ground).

Mostly, they worked on cultivating a particular brutal attitude towards it. Especially with the women in the group, who were encouraged to spar with and partner with guys. I was a bit shocked at how fast otherwise shy women would take towards brutal retailiation, once they got over their hangups.

Fun stuff was in the dark, blindfolded, or against black-belts. The black-belts would force you to use realistic amounts of force, and would fight the moves. Our instructors got on our asses (which meant running, mostly) if we just half-assed it. If you weren't allowed to foot stomp the actual foot, you better be denting the ground right next to it, etc. No half-assed letting them throw you, shit like that. Black-belts just wore a lot of padding and head gear for that, and as a guy who was 6 foot and in good shape, they didn't "let" go.

Knee strikes and other joint breaks were out, though. There's not really a safe way to handle that -- other than just aiming to the side if you had a shot. Even with gear....we had a few cracked cups (earning one rather small girl the nickname "Killer") and the occasional broken face shield each year. And practice always sent you home with some fun bruises. Then again, while nominally we did 'point sparring', the amount of force you used went up as you had more experience. Black-belts did full contact, if padded.

As Mahrin said, though -- a lot of it is just awareness of how much of a hit people can really take -- and what's fragile. The rest is simply practice and experience with people trying to hit you, whether in sport or not.

I actually liked the few aikido elements they did. Something about it always seemed...natural. Mostly we just did little stuff (how to break someone's hold on your wrist, how to pin a hand -- easy and very simple) but I was always fascinated by how elegant it was.

I'd imagine at some point in history there were people with access to enough slaves/prisoners to master lethal techniques.  Sort of like how the smiths who crafted katanas for samurai supposedly tested the finished product on a live body.

Edit: I got mixed up.  I think I was recalling a crazy story about damascus swords being cooled by impaling them into the bodies of live humans.

I've read about that. Led to some rather odd standards. "Three body cutter" and all.

I don't know about 'live practice' -- it wouldn't surprise me if condemned prisoners were used for that, but I'd imagine recently dead bodies would work just as well.

Although supposedly that wrapped bamboo stuff is supposed to provide similar resistance to bone and flesh.

*shrug*. Lethal's both hard and easy hand-to-hand. The body can take a lot of punishment. More than most people think. But if you know where it's weak, and know how to hit it, it's just a matter of getting the shot at it. (Aren't Marines still trained in a few lethal techniques? For doing things like silencing sentries? I'd imagine they'd prefer a knife, but if you have to put your hand over their mouth to keep them from making noise, well, your hands are right there....).

Of course, what it all boils down to is attitude. I don't think you can ever really know if you'll freeze up, panic, or fight back (effectively or not) until you're in the situation. All you can do is train a lot of muscle memory and hope to hell the instinctive urge to survive coupled with training will generate something effective. It does help knowing you can take a hit, though.

Ironically, martial arts training left me quite accepting of taking a punch or kick. Getting stabbed or shot, however, generates horror. Especially stabbed. We played around with knife fighting just enough to make me wonder how the human race survived once we started putting points and edges on things.

Lots and lots of fucking.

Bamboo isn't a good substitute. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFQ4aanmupU&feature=PlayList&p=0C6727A80AA354AE&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=4)  The bundled mat will offer roughly the same resistance, but with slightly less rigidity (unless it's mounted on a pole or extremely tightly bound, which does happen), and with more decelerating effect as the blade cleaves deeper, unlike bamboo which is densest at the start and end of the cut.  Ballistics gel is better.  It behaves more like real flesh because it's made from animal proteins.  It doesn't have much rigidity or fibrous structure though, so it deforms more easily than it should.


The preferred way to silently kill things with a knife is to approach from behind, grab the victim, and stab the knife upwards through their diaphragm and into the lower lung with a twist.  This opens the chest cavity to the outside atmosphere and almost immediately collapses their lungs and/or fills the chest cavity with blood.  Then they're fucked, and they can't even scream because any contraction of the lung simply deflates that volume of air into the chest cavity rather than the throat.  Cutting throats is noisy and messy, and the spinal column is pretty well protected and hard to cut cleanly.

Or so I've been told.  Gramps was a very disturbed individual.


Well designed armour makes a huge difference.  Even quilted cloth can foil an arrow, bolt, or blade enough that it fails to penetrate the skin or inflicts only minor lacerations.  Hence the development and adoption of maces, heavy polearms, war hammers, the falchion (and similar designs like the katzbalger), and the ricasso commonly found on later swords to enable the wielder to halfsword the weapon.

European martial arts are pretty cool.

Someone is a fan of The Deadliest Warrior ;D

I wasn't really thinking about armor. Just about chalked wooden knives and the nasty slash lines you'd get from even a brief exchange. I admit, it was one way to deflate someone's sudden belief they're a bad ass. "Here, I'm going to put some red chalk on this knife, and you're going to try to take it away from me".

Although -- question about modern armor (you know kevlar and shit). Isn't a lot of it pretty...specific? Designed to handle very specific impact profiles?

I mean, a longbow used to punch through steel. How's it rate against a kevlar vest designed to stop a smaller projectile?

Then again, that dragonscale shit I saw was pretty cool. I think they were demoing it on some "Look at cool military shit" shows on either discovery or the history channel.

Most ballistic body armor is also very effective against slashes from blades, not as effective against stabbing attacks (but still far better than street clothes or even heavy leather).  A arrow from a modern compound bow (more kinetic energy than classic longbows) has a similar impact profile to a high-power pistol round, and I doubt it would penetrate much better (but I'm guessing).

--Dave

I am.  They regularly surprise and delight me with how abysmally fucking stupid humanity can be.


Kevlar is designed to dissipate large amounts of energy by decelerating and fragmenting the bullet before it strikes flesh effectively by folding around and entrapping the projectile enough to incur a large loss in velocity due to friction, and spreading the remainder across a wider area.  It does fairly well against stabbing, less well against anything that cuts because it compromises the fibres.  Most every type of armor that isn't plate is also built on this principle.

A longbow won't penetrate a plate, ever.  It's unlikely to penetrate mail beyond a few dozen feet.  Likewise for layered leather, or cloth of sufficient strength and thickness.  Weak points in the armor is the only place where an arrow will actually strike a killing blow.  This neckbeard (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131) has some pretty cool testing, and a fucking wicked poleaxe/hammer.  His conclusion seems to be that ten layers of cotton makes you immune to bodkin arrows (like a flight or target arrow - not designed for cutting).


It's the other way around: most vest will foil a stab, but slice open easily enough.  It's completely counter-intuitive, I know.

That's not the way I remember it, so I did some research to clear my confusion.  Seems that there are two different kinds of fibers used in modern body armor, Kevlar and Spectra.  Kevlar is good against bullets, but easily cut by sharp edges, Spectra isn't as strong but is extremely hard to cut (they use it as an alternative to the old chainmail gloves for butchers).  They started using mixtures of the two for high-end police equipment back in the 90's, and it's becoming common now to use at least one layer of Spectra cloth over the Kevlar ballistic protection.

--Dave

Killing men makes most folks disturbed.   Dad shared the same tips with me.  Also: I now know how to beat interrogate a man without leaving bruises but causing incredible amounts of pain.