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Title: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on June 24, 2010, 12:27:18 AM As the Eve servers are currently offline I thought I'd pick your brains to understand a little more about the reasons why.
What exactly is involved with moving a server cluster and what can go wrong? Are they just saving the data and restoring it to new computers or is it just a physical move of the machines? Why do it, is it a response to the game's steady growth? Will it cure lag? Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: TheDreamr on June 24, 2010, 12:52:30 AM Wow ... still offline, neat.
Not entirely sure what they're moving as it could be boxes or it could be switching to their DR systems, assuming they exist. Either option has many interesting ways they could overrun, mostly of the "we made the switch and something small but critical aint working" variety. There was a devblog recently explaining that the idea was to consolidate all their machines into an aisle / section of the DC so they'd have faster connectivity between the machines in the cluster as well as the latest power and heat management options. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on June 24, 2010, 12:56:50 AM There are tons of things that can go wrong. If they've moved the hardware from the old to the new datacenter, then they can have broken some of the hardware while in transit, they can have misconfigured something which worked fine on the old datacenter but is triggered on the new datacenter, or they can quite simply have connected some wire incorrectly. I expect the last issue to be something they can solve quickly, however.
My interpretation of the move was that it was a physical move, i.e. shut it down on the old centre and haul it to the new, but it doesn't really explain the "during final testing of the database configuration" message on their site right now. They might've gone for the copying data way of doing things, and fucked up something, somewhere. I dunno. I would've probably either setup a dedicated line between the datacentres (the network latency between the sites is probably not going to matter much if it's in the same city) and moved the nodes piecemeal, but that still leaves room for error. If I had done this, and I had sufficient funds and an absolute desire to make sure this would go smooth as a baby's bottom, then I'd probably just setup a whole new cluster, have it properly tested, and setup the official SQL server to replicate its data to the new SQL server in real time, so they could verify the new site worked flawlessly and had the updated data. Then, when that's done, set the TTL for the hosts the clients use to 5 minutes, wait for the required DT, change the IP to the new frontend nodes/proxies, and just get to work dismantling the old centre. Although, there's still the case of murphy's law, so things could've gone horribly wrong even if they had done this. vOv As for why, it might be that the old centre just isn't providing them with sufficient temperature stability or space. I remember the old datacentre we used to live in at the old workplace. If we got a temperature increase of about 2-3 degrees, some of the Netfinity 4500R's would die with a problem on some component that was on the motherboard and distributed power to the CPUs (I usually solved this by either moving the CPU to the other slot, or just rip the disks, disk extension thingy, CPU, memory and network cards to a new chassis with a non-dead motherboard). The new datacentre CCP is moving to probably provides them with exactly this, more stable temperature, and more space. They are going to add Dust514 soon after all, and I believe it's this (along with consolidating the website servers etc? not sure) that's the cause for the migration. This will not cure lag in any way, shape or form, as I believe there were no hardware changes whatsoever when dominion was deployed, and CCP claims the new code is using less CPU than ever before. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 24, 2010, 01:15:32 AM There are hardware changes, they are using new switching equipment. They are moving to a dedicated room in the same datacenter.
Here is the devblog: Quote What makes up the live EVE Cluster and how it's all done is something of a mystery to many who have speculated what it's made of and how it's all connected together. As you may know the Tranquility (TQ) cluster will be down for maintenance on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 from 0900 to 1500 UTC. With a migration and a bit of a redesign on the way I thought it was about time to deliver the facts on what it is and will be. Step one: A cozy new home TQ has morphed and adjusted over the years as much as EVE Online has. It's gotten to the point were a couple of cabinets simply don't handle it anymore. So, this first step is to move TQ to a bigger place. We'll still be in the same datacenter and connecting to you from multiple networks to ensure the best performance, but this time with a lot more space and power and room to grow. The new space is a whopping 79kW of power across 12 cabinets. With the larger space and added power, we can now aggregate TQ, Singularity, and the ancillary EVE Services (web, forums, account management, etc.) into a single location in the datacenter. This will provide better network connectivity, fewer intermediary devices and increased capacity. As with any dense computer solution like our blade servers, heat is always a major concern. Sure, we get great management tools and reduced physical space requirements, but we still have to cool the servers. To do this we've moved from an ambient cooled system (basically the open room temperature is managed but not funneled direct to server intakes) to a completely self-contained, closed aisle cooling system. Cold air from the center of the aisle is force-fed into the cabinets reducing the loss or wasted cool air significantly and helping to focus cold air where it's needed most. This takes the industry standard "hot aisle/cold aisle" designs a step further without having to do anything crazy like running servers under nitrogen pools (although that is pretty cool). (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/cold.jpg) Step two: Networking to 9000 Most of the traffic on the network in TQ is happening between the servers on the internal network. While the routers we use are quite powerful (Cisco 7600's with the RSP720 route processors), our internal switching needed a kick in the pants. With the move we are going to be adding about 800% capacity to our side to side network along with some really nice Cisco Distributed Forwarding Cards (DFC3) to the network blades themselves to help reduce the latency and reduce burden on the supervisor cards that run the switches. (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2010/dfc3.jpg) Step three: Pics or it didn't happen We are going to continue the information sharing about the infrastructure that makes EVE work on the next installment. Although not everyone gets excited about cabinets and a datacenter, there are a few that do. I personally keep them posted on my wall at home. This is meant to be the first of many installments as we continue to improve the infastructure that EVE runs on. Step four: But, how does this help me get my ship back? The increase in Layer 2 switching capacity, reducing in latency through Distributed Forwarding, and the extra cold hamsters will have an impact on the ability to reduce overall latency in EVE. It is not a single solution, but a good foundation where core infrastructure can be eliminated as a possible concern. The next tech installment will have more details on Remapping EVE, the next level of Fleet Fighting and better prediction of hot spots for dedicated nodes. TQ Tech Details: (Not the whole system, just what runs TQ) Servers 64 x IBM HS21 2x Dual Core 3.33GHz CPU's 32GB of RAM Each 1x72GB HDD Each 2 x IBM X3850 M2's 2x Six Core 2.66GHz 128GB of RAM 4 x 146GB HDD Cores - 280 total Cores - ~1 THz RAM - 2.3TB of Total RAM Storage - 4.8TB of Local Storage - 2TB of SSD SAN - 256GB of RAM SAN Network - Gigabit Ethernet - 4Gb/s Fiber Channel So what will June 23 look like? Here's our current downtime schedule for when TQ will be offline: 0900: All EVE Services go offline. (Web, Forums, Test Servers, EVE Gate, TQ, basically everything hosted in London) 1200: EVE Online web, secure and Test Servers come back online. (all network services reestablished in London. Only TQ should still be down at this time) 1500: TQ back online Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: ajax34i on June 24, 2010, 03:38:24 AM I don't think they mind talking about technical details (or issues), so we'll probably get a devblog after explaining what went wrong.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 24, 2010, 07:09:49 AM Updated time for Tranquility return from our round-the-clock-server crew is now around 16:00 GMT, following testing
Servers are looking good so far in testing. Our pale, pod-goo-wrinkled fingers are crossed. Time still stands. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 24, 2010, 09:00:24 AM I completely missed this, and hence am not training anything on my main for the first time since the skill queue was introduced.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Yoru on June 24, 2010, 09:34:24 AM I don't think they mind talking about technical details (or issues), so we'll probably get a devblog after explaining what went wrong. Looks like it, see bold. Posted on EVE-O: Quote welcome back to tranquility reported by CCP Wrangler | 2010.06.24 16:06:43 | NEW Pilots, After an unexpectedly long downtime following the physical relocation and updating of the Tranquility server cluster, we welcome you back to the EVE universe. For those of you not following along at www.eveonline.com, Twitter and Facebook, we discovered an issue during the final testing of the database configuration which, once fixed, required a few more layers of testing before we could begin the process of bringing the server back online. This downtime has been unprecedented in many ways and CCP understands its responsibility to address it as such. Once our database team catches some sleep, they will write a dev blog detailing the delay, our decision process for extending the downtime and the steps we took to bring back New Eden as stable as possible. That will be posted in the dev blog section on www.eveonline.com. In gratitude for your patience, we will give an extra pool of skillpoints to all accounts (paying and trial) that were active at the beginning of this downtime, on one character per account. This skillpoint pool will be appropriately sized for the downtime time frame, universal across all accounts regardless of character attributes/implants and may be applied as each player wants. This will be done through a new system in the development pipeline, currently scheduled for deployment next Tuesday’s patching opportunity* during regularly scheduled downtime. Since it has been “hot dropped” into the development plans, we will be providing step-by-step instructions for how to use it as soon as possible. Thank you again for your understanding and patience. Fly Safe, The EVE Online Development Team Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Kitsune on June 24, 2010, 12:10:26 PM I giggled inside when I saw their 9-hour estimate for reconfiguring and moving their servers. Whenever a major server job is being done, you need to make your best time estimate, then double it to get the more realistic time. If you're at all iffy about any step in the process, triple or quadruple it. It never ever fails that server work takes vastly longer than originally expected.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: ajax34i on June 24, 2010, 02:36:59 PM In case you're not reading the devblog posts and the zillion threads talking about it, CCP will give every player a bunch of skillpoints to distribute as you see fit, and a PI-related ship made by Ore. Both are through the microtransaction system they have, which, in the case of the skillpoints, seems to suggest the possibility that we may be able to buy SP's like we can buy plexes. I guess we'll see if they allow / implement it (right now there's a lot of flaming on the eve-o forums debating whether this is a good idea or not).
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on June 24, 2010, 03:08:37 PM Being able to buy skill points would be a great way for them to continue to get new players into the game. No matter how many times we tell the newbies that the only real difference between them and a veteran player after 6 months is the number of different roles they can do well they still get discouraged when they play with people who have millions of skill points.
If CCP was smart they'd start every new account with 10 million points and let players distribute them however they like. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: ajax34i on June 24, 2010, 03:35:53 PM CCP has posted (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1341909&page=1#7) that they are not planning to let people buy SP's (EVE is not switching to microtransactions). They do have a system in place; they implemented it when they gave everyone that solar-sail shuttle, and it's apparently only going to be used to distribute various gifts similar to that, if any, and not as a full-fledged microtransaction system, apparently.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 24, 2010, 04:02:06 PM If CCP was smart they'd start every new account with 10 million points and let players distribute them however they like. Welcome to the era where everyone has a custom-made dreadnought alts. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on June 24, 2010, 04:44:49 PM Well there's already a system in place where you can buy skill points. You can buy plexes with money then use that isk to buy characters on the Eve O forums. Not quite so tailored of course.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Numtini on June 25, 2010, 10:11:02 AM I think the time is probably right for another adjustment on skills and perhaps a bit longer boost than is currently available. It's awful rough if you're a bare newbie. Other alliances aren't as kind as goonswarm about low sp characters.
I'm glad they're not going the microtransaction route. There are games where I think that makes sense, but this isn't one of them. I also don't think it's a good idea to try to change midcourse. A good microtrans system is designed from the ground up, not grafted onto a subscription model. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 25, 2010, 01:27:57 PM For new players the eve learning path can be a great experience. They grow with what they do, learn the skills that improve whatever path they choose. It's a great way to evolve in an mmo but it's crippling in attracting players who come from other games and want a great pvp experience.
I say lose the spaceship command and learning tree and give every new character the ability to use every t1 mod and fly every ship at skill 1. Let players use the accumulated subscription points to improve in specific areas but not to gain access to ships, caps and t3 perhaps not included. It would allow new character to be useful in every fleet and small gang possible (they'd still be horrible) but they'd be so much more useful to every alliance and probably have a lot more fun too. And while you're at it CCP, get some of your people in the newbie corps and have them hand out free t1 ships and mods while providing a good clone for all and a decent CCP FC to fight the other newbie corps in factional warfare on a voluntary basis. No personal losses possible. Oh and while you're at it fuck cloning. Seriously, make it automagically. Nobody wants a death penalty, everybody wants to go out there and have fun. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 25, 2010, 01:32:33 PM I demand the death penalty for my enemies.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 25, 2010, 01:35:17 PM That would be included in the microtransaction bit then.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 25, 2010, 01:51:34 PM What, I'd be able to pay for my enemies to lose skill points?
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: IainC on June 25, 2010, 02:03:39 PM The clone fee is a tax on high SP pilots and an incentive to stop training on one character and start an alt. It costs me 13m a time plus implants to get podded on my main and (mostly) for that reason I intend to stop training that character before she hits the next clone level. 13m isn't a crippling amount for a high SP player but adds up to a non-trivial cost to anyone who runs in high-risk environments and can expect to get podded reasonably often.
Learning skills need to go away, and I wouldn't be horribly opposed to most meta 1 items being requirement free as well. I do think that the steep initial advancement curve is valuable to new players however (once you take learning skills out of the equation). You start off in a shitty frigate and pretty much every skill you can learn increases your character's abilities by a significant margin, you can see real growth and before long you are in a cruiser which is a huge improvement on your shitty frigate. Giving everyone 10m SPs would negate that as you could start with a lot of those stepping stone skills and you'd see only very gradual improvement from then on. Also it's easy to make a tightly tailored alt for pretty much any role with 10m SPs without needing any additional training, even a capital alt is possible in that framework. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 25, 2010, 02:24:08 PM What, I'd be able to pay for my enemies to lose skill points? Let me just put that in green for you then.Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 25, 2010, 02:59:43 PM Learning skills need to go away, and I wouldn't be horribly opposed to most meta 1 items being requirement free as well. I do think that the steep initial advancement curve is valuable to new players however (once you take learning skills out of the equation). You start off in a shitty frigate and pretty much every skill you can learn increases your character's abilities by a significant margin, you can see real growth and before long you are in a cruiser which is a huge improvement on your shitty frigate. Giving everyone 10m SPs would negate that as you could start with a lot of those stepping stone skills and you'd see only very gradual improvement from then on. Also it's easy to make a tightly tailored alt for pretty much any role with 10m SPs without needing any additional training, even a capital alt is possible in that framework. Well I enjoyed all that. The growing into ships thing, building your character to accommodate whatever it is you are doing. I think it's a great, I'm having a good time. The Eve model, as it is, is something that suits me and I don't think gazillion skillpoints to make whatever character you want would be a solution to anything.But I wasn't talking about me, what got me going was another 'what pvp mmo is good' thread mentioning Eve. Eve is horrible for an accomplished mmo pvp player trying to pvp on a new character. There is no way they can plunge right into the action and have fun unless they buy an old character. (yes, newbie tacklers and all that, much love). Lowering the barrier for all commonly used ships so new players can field t1 fleet battleships or an interceptor in their first week might be an improvement. Of course they'd be very weak in their role without additional skilling but all roles commonly used in fleets or small gangs should be available to them. I think Eve would be better off with newbies able to fly everything while they train their subsystems and factional warfare being free (as in beer) pvp organised by CCP or volunteers. Allowing new players, who came for or are interested in pvp, to experience organised fleet fights and gang warfare in empire without consequence until they feel confident enough to go into 0.0. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Thrawn on June 25, 2010, 04:24:04 PM EVE should also add battlegrounds with no death penalty where you can fleet fight, and maybe you can get twice as fast of learning speed if you fly with a friend. Also if you already have a high SP char you should be able to make a character of a special new race that starts out with 40mil SP. If you get blown up you can just fly in a covert ops back to your ship with perma-stealth and then you recover your losses with no penalties too!
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on June 25, 2010, 04:55:53 PM This has turned into the terrible design ideas thread. Shouldn't you be posting this rubbish on the CSM boards?
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 25, 2010, 05:04:03 PM No it's cool, let's reward people that have been playing the game since 05 with additional All Vs dreadnought pilots and as many SP as my two year old character!
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Setanta on June 25, 2010, 09:53:01 PM EVE should also add battlegrounds with no death penalty where you can fleet fight, and maybe you can get twice as fast of learning speed if you fly with a friend. Also if you already have a high SP char you should be able to make a character of a special new race that starts out with 40mil SP. If you get blown up you can just fly in a covert ops back to your ship with perma-stealth and then you recover your losses with no penalties too! You forgot the bit about the ability to flag or unflag your PvP status :D Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on June 26, 2010, 12:50:25 AM Heh, giving them 10 million points is probably going overboard. I didn't realize you could do that much with one. My main guy has 80 million points so a 10 million point character didn't seem terribly threatening.
It's probably silly concerning myself about bringing new people into the game anyway. EVE is well past that stage at this point. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 26, 2010, 02:18:06 AM There are a couple of really nasty alts you could make with 10m SP, including incredibly well-skilled stealth bomber pilots.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: IainC on June 26, 2010, 03:05:36 AM This plan weighs in at about 9.5m SPs
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: ajax34i on June 26, 2010, 08:35:28 AM That plan also weighs in at about 10b ISK, or about $200 (if it were a character purchase). I wouldn't pay the $200, and I don't even have the 10b.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Numtini on June 26, 2010, 09:34:30 AM That's the difference between what you do with X million points if they're handed to you and what you would actually do with them if you were trying to play at the same time. Particularly if you didn't know what you were doing to min max it all.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 26, 2010, 11:34:45 AM If you want to give new players more swing and avoid these specialised alts, don't make more skillpoints available for character creation but lower the skill requirements of plain t1 modules and ships to zero. Make unnamed t1 the new civilian modules.
That wouldn't alter the current philosophy on character progression but would give new people more options to explore while avoiding specialised alts. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: slog on June 29, 2010, 07:04:21 AM No it's cool, let's reward people that have been playing the game since 05 with additional All Vs dreadnought pilots and as many SP as my two year old character! You know, now that I think about it, one of the main frustrations I had with Eve is that there was nothing I could ever do to compete with the long time players simply because I started later. Eve isn't for everyone I guess... Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on June 29, 2010, 06:42:30 PM The free SP thing worked out pretty well, actually. I got Large Projectile III and Minmatar BS II out of it on one character, and shaved a day and a half off another character's long skill.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Gets on June 30, 2010, 04:42:42 AM After yesterday's patch the "Prefer Safer" autopilot option does not work, and will default to taking the shortest route instead. :evil:
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on June 30, 2010, 05:16:00 AM These fellas found the safer paths to be, indeed, safer:
http://bl3h-united.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=177667 Don't forget the BPO/BPCs getting the same icon as the first BPO/BPC (might just be BPC, not sure. I can't be arsed to check). I'm amazed at all the stupid mistakes they let slip in through not just large patches, but small (supposedly much more focused) patches as well. It's fucking clownshoes, is what it is. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on June 30, 2010, 05:45:43 AM The autopilot bug where it resets to shortest path from prefer safer happens frequently after a patch. It's one of those things you learn to expect along with having to redo your overview.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on June 30, 2010, 05:52:53 AM The autopilot bug where it resets to shortest path from prefer safer happens frequently after a patch. It's one of those things you learn to expect along with having to redo your overview. You mean that the default choice of "prefer safer" is then set to "prefer shortest"?I was under the impression that it preferred the shortest route even if you specifically went in and chose "prefer safer route". Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 30, 2010, 06:28:36 AM Tyrannis 1.0.3 patch (http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?patchlogID=208) to be deployed on July 1, 2010
FIXES The autopilot was mistakenly providing the shortest route to your destination even when you had the prefer safer option selected. We sent it back to flight school and the safer option is again working correctly. Some blueprint icons were being displayed incorrectly based on their type. This has been corrected. An error was being generated while trying to access items in a corp hanger while in space. You are now able to trash items normally that are located in a corporate hangar array at a POS. The Planetary Commodities cargo hold on the Primae couldn’t be loaded with Water or Oxygen. It can now. An error was being generated why you tried to edit more than one contact at the same time. This now works as intended. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on June 30, 2010, 08:18:49 AM Oh wow. That is a new one. I thought you were talking about the old one where your autopilot setting just gets reset.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on June 30, 2010, 12:17:12 PM Yea, they managed to have one of their annoying patch day resets turn into a full blown bug. I wonder if they'll reimburse those popped freighters.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on June 30, 2010, 02:27:03 PM Of course they'll reimbursahahahahahahaha no they won't.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on July 01, 2010, 12:50:49 AM It wasn't me, it was the SAN. This devblog (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=773) explains the drama that took place on 23/07/10 in the air-conditioned cold of the CCP server room in London.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on July 01, 2010, 01:03:06 AM So they can provide details on this, but the lag monster? Heeeeell no.
I seriously think everyone in 0.0 needs to start thunderdoming the larger trading hubs for a few weeks, just to make the lag problem visible to even those in empire. I know I had absolutely no idea how bad it was pre-stackless IO, because I was just faffing about in empire and not seeing any problems at all. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on July 01, 2010, 05:18:10 AM Heh you actually think CCP would pay more attention to 0.0 problems if you upset a bunch of empire dwellers who are playing the game all wrong?
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on July 01, 2010, 05:21:54 AM I expect that one of two things would happen.
1) They fix lag. 2) They ban all those who are "griefing" (aka using the wardec mechanic as intended to bring the fighting into hisec). Probably 2). Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on July 01, 2010, 05:29:55 AM Lag is their biggest problem. It's what's spoiling the game for people that are playing the way they designed it to be played. Do you really think they're purposely refusing to fix it for some reason?
I'm no big fan of CCP but I really can't believe that they're quite that bad. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on July 01, 2010, 05:46:20 AM It's not a problem for everyone who's playing the game the way it was designed, only for those who are part of large (for decreasingly smaller values of 'large') fleet fights. It's probably also affecting FW, but I've no idea how many people are actually still playing FW, but manufacturers, BPO copiers, mission runners etc are probably not seeing that much of these problems. Maybe they get traffic notification on a gate once in a while, but apart from that, to them eve works just fine.
I wouldn't be surprised if at least one guy is trying to figure out what the fuck, but when was the last time you saw any information from CCP in any way, shape or form on lag? All I've seen is how they've kept the node alive when CVA got fucked, and how the ships were not reimbursed by GMs in 6nj. That, and sisi tests which doesn't really seem to amount to much. There's no information, there seems to be no work done, no progress at all, and it just looks like (from all appearances, since again, there's no information) CCP is ignoring this and hoping it'll go away. I'm under no illusion that thunderdoming various trading hotspots in empire (i.e. 0.0 dwellers wardec eachother and run around in empire having 200v200 fights, so it's 100% legal) would even do anything to make CCP prioritize fixing lag more, but it's a damn tempting thought. No, I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that the servers are in this state, and will continue to be in this state for probably a few years, and just move over to using covert ships to fag up enemy systems, since small gangs seem to be the only thing that's even reliable these days. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Sir T on July 01, 2010, 07:06:22 AM Yeah I heard about that "Titans that jumped out 2 hours before they were killed in the system they jumped from reappeared in the system they jumped to the next downstime when the server rebuilt itself." bullshit yesterday. I mean what the hell.
The long term thing is that eventually it will only be small gangs of supercaps that will be able to move in 0.0, effectively making them invincible, again. The wholeway the server is worked has always been strange. I remember way back during the BOB/Ascn war that we had massive traffic controls in the region I lived in (Solitude) The theory was that the systems are shared between different regions, and what goes on in one system could effect what goes on in seemingly random systems all over Eve. One of the benefits of stackless IO was that didn't happen anymore. At the time we were all mad as hell as CCP were obviously sucking power away from other systems so that BOB could have fun. The fact that WE, mere low sec dewllers, were trying to have a war as well and we couldn't even move didn't seem to matter to them. Hell I remember getting Multiple traffic controls in Ankee when there was literally no-one in system. But Ankee was obviously tied to so,e region down south and THEY needed the juice to get BOB back first after a node crash or something. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on July 02, 2010, 10:19:11 AM when was the last time you saw any information from CCP in any way, shape or form on lag? Quote Patch notes for Tyrannis 1.0.2, released June 29, 2010 Need for Speed * Memory usage has been improved with missiles, maps, and PIN’s. * Frames per second has been improved when using warp disruption bubbles. # Players will no longer see the fleet list scroll to the top in the flat list, when a member enters or leaves a large fleet. # The overview and brackets have been optimized and will flicker less when in a big fleet. # The overview window refresh rate has been optimized. Patch notes for Tyrannis 1.0.1, released 02 June 2010 Optimizations were made to the Planet view. It will now load faster and run smoother. Patch notes for EVE Online: Tyrannis, released Wednesday 26 May 2010. Need for Speed * Made various improvements to the EVE server software and corified more of its components along the way. and of course the moving of the server cluster. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Sir T on July 02, 2010, 11:35:43 AM Adn they have been so successful :grin:
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: lac on July 02, 2010, 01:57:54 PM CCP knows exactly where the lag is.
They have competent database people and it's real easy for them to tell what's causing the lockups. Any 25$ monitoring app could provide the necessary data, really. Seeing where stuff locks up is the easy part. Modifying your code to not make stuff fuck up is a lot harder. Those SiSi tests they are doing are bullshit. It's Pr designed to keep both their customer support team and the concerned part of their clientèle occupied and feeling useful. Running a comprehensive log of a node were is a fleet fight is going on, with the hardware they have, won't really interfere that much with the experience of the players. When the node is going tits up anyway, that 10% loss of performance caused by the logging every little detail won't change anything. Yet it shows so much. Eve is crippling on it's code. And that means it's pretty much done. Sure, they can tag shit on, and that seems to be what they are doing, but unless somebody takes this whole project and redesigns it from the ground up we'll be left dangling. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Sir T on July 02, 2010, 02:13:06 PM A rebuild would mean taking the servers offline for a while. Hell it might even mean deleting some skillz. And they are afraid of doing that as if people did not get their fix they might never come back.
It pays them more to keep people addicted. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on July 02, 2010, 04:19:47 PM The idea of them taking the entire game apart and then trying to put it back together again makes me nervous for some reason.
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Endie on July 03, 2010, 02:12:50 AM The idea of them taking the entire game apart and then trying to put it back together again makes me nervous for some reason. "Well, there we go, that's her rebuilt." [Dusts-off hands, wipes on oily rag] "Um, guys... should this bit have gone somewhere?" Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: tgr on July 05, 2010, 02:00:33 AM when was the last time you saw any information from CCP in any way, shape or form on lag? Quote Patch notes for Tyrannis 1.0.2, released June 29, 2010 Need for Speed * Memory usage has been improved with missiles, maps, and PIN’s. * Frames per second has been improved when using warp disruption bubbles. # Players will no longer see the fleet list scroll to the top in the flat list, when a member enters or leaves a large fleet. # The overview and brackets have been optimized and will flicker less when in a big fleet. # The overview window refresh rate has been optimized. Patch notes for Tyrannis 1.0.1, released 02 June 2010 Optimizations were made to the Planet view. It will now load faster and run smoother. Patch notes for EVE Online: Tyrannis, released Wednesday 26 May 2010. Need for Speed * Made various improvements to the EVE server software and corified more of its components along the way. and of course the moving of the server cluster. And none of these really touch on lag, grid-load or session change issues. The server cluster moving had absolutely nothing to do with fixing any of the problems I'm thinking about. All I see are hugely annoying (but somewhat superficial, unless you target the wrong guy because the damn overview keeps reorganizing itself) issues that also came along with Dominion. I just wish they'd figure out and fix whatever it is that's ruining the eve big-battles experience, but until then I'll just go about and changing the way I play the game. I've been skilling towards hounds, and I'm thinking of going down the bomber/gsrecon route instead. I've never really done that kind of playing. I've been an industrialist, and a low-level fleet fight grunt, but I've never really done this, so I guess I might as well give it a try. It's a big sandbox after all, might as well have a go at it. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if lag and gridload isn't that much of a problem, it's the whole changing session to a different system and/or physical node that's the really fucked up part. How many times haven't people mentioned that once you get in system, moving about is fine? That makes me wonder just how much work it might take to fix it, but they haven't really said anything about what the core problem is, if they've found it, and how much time they estimate it'll take to fix it so all we have to go on is ... absolutely nothing, which is the most frustrating bit. If they did know where the lag is, they should say so, so we'd stop wondering. It's the wondering part that's the most frustrating part, to me. That, and the inconsistent crap that follows. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Stabs on July 05, 2010, 02:05:38 AM I'm not terribly technical but my understanding that lag is a broad term encompassing a wide range of different issues that cause poor client-server communication. Fixing missile graphics or whatever won't magic wand lag away but lots of little tweaks like that should help.
Also why won't the new more powerful computers improve things? Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: TheDreamr on July 06, 2010, 05:58:54 AM Also why won't the new more powerful computers improve things? Because you can't polish a turd. Throwing more power at a non-specific performance problem only works up until a certain point, then it becomes prohibitively expensive to mask inefficient and poorly optimised code by just buying faster hardware to run it on. If you can identify a specific problem then a combination of optimising code and throwing the correct hardware at it becomes much more realistic and cost-effective. Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Reg on July 06, 2010, 07:49:37 AM The the big fleet lag only appeared a couple of major patches ago though didn't it? If that's the case it seems to me that the problem should be isolated to the changes made during that patch rather than it being caused by general "shitty" code. That's why I don't understand why it hasn't been fixed already. Is it possible that CCP has their best network coder off working on some other game - or maybe he left the company?
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: slog on July 06, 2010, 10:18:29 AM Why do so many folks assume it's a network problem?
Title: Re: TMA: moving a server cluster Post by: Phildo on July 06, 2010, 10:54:19 AM Lag and various black-screening issues have existed for as long as the game itself has. What Reg is thinking of is that it was significantly improved upon in Apocrypha (or thereabouts) and we had a few months where it was possible to fit up to a 1,000 people in a system. Then Dominion happened and the servers basically went back to how they were before Apocrypha, with slightly altered behavior.
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