f13.net

DDO jumps to third-most-popular spot in MMO survey (http://www.massively.com/2010/05/13/ddo-jumps-to-third-most-popular-spot-in-mmo-survey)

So, I guess all the Internets doom casting for the DDO move to F2P was, get this, unfounded. *Shocked*

I can't imagine moving to F2P being harmful to almost any game's popularity.  It's profitability, on the other hand, maybe.

I'm hoping more games go this way.  EQ2 for instance.

Anyone else notice that City of Heros and City of Villains were listed separately? 

I do find it interesting that f2p is becoming more popular.  I think that's a sure result of the current economic situation coupled to the lack of anything groundbreaking showing up in the MMO universe.   

F2P titles carry a very real stigma (Crappy/grindy/shallow/Cash shop = I win). That this report is showing to be in decline, or at least, more people are now closet P2P'ers (?)

DDO is pretty fun.  I played it for a good two weeks and ended up subbing.  Then I hit the wall where you can't solo effectively and it becomes unfun if you don't have a set group of friends to play with.

Solo DDO?   :awesome_for_real:  What's the point?

My gripe with DDO is simply Eberron.  Limiting the game to that one single ruleset is contrary to what DnD is.  Imagine what DDO would be like if you could choose your Campaign world - 'jammer, Realms, planescape, and so on.
It'd be the hottest MMO out there.  But no, we've just got Eberron... lawl, the most boring setting in the trope.

There never was a stigma, the only people who truly detest fp2 mmo's are those who think their EQ2 and LotR subscriptions are well worth it.

I think if anything, the reason F2P mmos are becoming so popular is that people who play MMO's are more likely to play 2 or 3 of them these days, where in the past they would stick to only one.  With F2P's you can continue to sub to one primary MMORPG and spend your offtime in the free one.  Next thing you know, your actually shelling out cash for that bigger backpack or bank vault even though it was just supposed to be a free side game!

I don't think anyone should be fooled into thinking that this is the wave of the future though, because while people are willing to do F2P for there secondary MMO"s, they want the full indepth monthly sub experience for their Primary.  F2P's are and will always be throw away games that you simply wouldn't bother with if you knew up front you we're going to actually spend money.

If you say so.

There was a stigma, however the tide was turning years ago.  No one believed those saying it though.

City of Heroes & City of Villains quit being 2 different like issue 8?  They tried having 2 rates, but found it was more people sticking around with access to both Heroes and Villains. 

I chalk it up to people being short sighted and addicted to instant gratification.

It's free now?  Oh, sure, sure.  I have to pay for perks or to remove the tedious parts later on, but it's free NOW?  Sign me up!  I like free stuff!

Then they wonder why they're paying 3-4x a typical sub fee in cash shop items to make the game fun/tolerable.

I don't have a set group of friends that want to play this so it becomes boring when I have to solo.  Solo happens when I can't find a guild group to get into and I don't feel like pugging.

I will gladly welcome more F2P MMOG's with cash shops of some kind. As long as they aren't any grindier than the shit we play these days, why not?

Looks Like it's all 5% changes anyway.

The only way most F2P games are not grindy as shit is when you are spending your money on the 2-4 hour exp potions from the cash shop at $2-$10 a pop.  With the pots it usually ends up just being plain old grindy rather than want to shoot yourself grindy for the few that I have tried.

I did not like the DDO much when I played a few years ago see no reason to play it now just because it is "free"

Yep.  Also, all that money shoved at RMT companies comes from SOMEWHERE. Only the vocal minority have ever been against it.  The rest were shamed into silence by the hardcore who were the noisy majority of forums.  As gaming moved into the mainstream it was inevitable that RMT would become not only accepted but a business model.. the same as cheat codes and gamesharks are/ were for consoles. 

"Normal" people play for entertainment and to them winning and being OP is entertaining.  Challenges are hard and make you feel small, inferior, few folks enjoy it.  Welcome to mass market gaming.

That said, my experiences are the same as Voltan's.  The F2P games are shit until you throw money at them.  Often times a lot more money than you would for a subscription game over the same time period. However, since it's bled out of you a few bucks at a time you hardly notice.

Is even the sample put up by Massively.com available anywhere else? Googling for this and all links lead to Massively.

In the context of that sentence what is challenging about the subscription games in the market now?

Your post brings up another issue where people think paying a subscription is like earning a premium service. RMT isn't the effect of mmo gaming going mainstream, it is the side effect of low standards set by subscription games. Fact is if you give people a blue rat to hit with a flashy anime inspired attack to hit the rat with they are happy. The masses are stupid, subscription games simply charged you monthly for that stupidity and f2p games take advantage of the masses obsessive compulsive disorder. People talk about WoW setting the bar really high. That is horseshit. All WoW did was raise the bar for people charging $15 a month for a game.

I think Al-Qadim would be a ton of fun, genies, wierd ass mages and assassins galore.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

This survey tells us nothng about how DDO is doing overall. All it is is a survey about what some ex-WoW players are playing. That's it. DDO could be sinking into oblivion for all that survey says about the game.

You're insane.

I bet he prefers "eccentric".

I can sort of see both sides of the argument. In some ways, Eberron is the perfect starter setting for people just dipping their teensy toes into P&P. It's got all the fantasy staples and enough lore to make the setting your own. On paper, it hits all the right notes.

On the other hand, some people might feel the setting is too engineered to please everyone and ends up lacking soul in the process. And I wouldn't put it past some to dislike Eberron simply for metagaming reasons, and view it as a cynical money-grab on WotC's part – as an attempt to marginalize people like Ed Greenwood out of D&D.

I'm usually there for the pizza, so as long as the GM doesn't subject us to poetry-writing dark elves with twin sabres, I'm game.

It's one of the reasons I want to see more of the study.

Given that Turbine sold out, I'm guessing that even with a 500% increase on DDO's revenue it wasn't enough to make Turbine's management feel comfortable about where the company was headed.

Also, what that article didn't talk about was how fragmented the market is - look at the list of games ex-WoW players are going to (since that is the only chart they are providing). And that GW, despite its age and lack of major updates, is still holding out versus other, newer MMOs. Or that Aion is way down the list as a destination for ex-WoW players.

It looks like I'd have to subscribe to the full report in order to see the wider spread of numbers.

You could try contacting them and asking for a (free) review copy. I imagine that's how Massively got hold of their copy as these reports are generally very expensive. It has a brochure and no price, just a number to discuss buying it with a salesman.
http://www.npd.com/lps/PDF_SpecialReports/Online_Gaming_2010.pdf

We may be talking about a 4 figure sum. I have been asked to get such reports for people from time to time. I think the most expensive one was around £7000 (about $10k).

As for DDO I believe it has increased in all sorts of ways. Fernando Pais said earlier this year that not only has business in the cash shop been brisk but that subs had gone up. People are trying it because it's free and streams then deciding it's worth $15/month.

I do think though that DDO is something of an outlier. It's a triple A game that really is worth paying $15 a month for if it's your style of game. It didn't manage to get much take-up when it launched, partly because Atari deliberately held it back and that's the matter of ongoing litigation. When people (like me) tried it in September the re-launch was publicised better than the launch had been. It was fun enough to be worth spending money on and has an absolutely terrific first 20 hours experience.

It avoids a number of the problems that tend to haunt F2Ps: intrusive paywalls, power-downs for people not paying over the odds and low quality. It was designed first as a fun game not first as a game with monetisation opportunities.

I certainly think people could learn from DDO and make fun games with gentle unobtrusive cash shops but they haven't been doing so far because it's so tempting to put pit traps everywhere for players to tumble into and spill out some cash to escape. Until there's a sea change in design philosophy DDO is not proof that F2P is the next big thing because it's successful for reasons that simply aren't shared by other F2P MMOs.

I shouldn't hijack this thread into "I love Eberron" land. But I will! Suffice to say that of all the pre-made D&D settings I've played or read about (I've never ACTUALLY played Forgotten Realms, but I've read what is probably enough of their extra rulebooks to get a feel for it), Eberron is by far my favorite. The other settings are fine, the ones I know, but they're ... a lot more generic feeling to me. That's fine, what makes D&D memorable to me is more shit like "ha ha ha, one time I totally disintigrated myself in the first round of a fight," but it annoys me when people dismiss Eberron out of hand because zomgrobots or zomgtrains. It mostly feels empty, a sort of "it's not exactly what I was playing, therefore I hate it like poison."

Which is par for the course in gaming, I suppose.

I liked DDO when I played it, but the stress of being The Rogue and the trauma of what happens if your regular partymates get ahead of you in level made me fall away from it. I should totally try it again, you have to love a game that actually turns your screen black when you're blinded.  Plus the DM voiceover guy was totally my boyfriend. :heart:

The full report goes over more than that. What wow players are now playing was only one aspect, the aspect massively is choosing to focus on.



Is a different part then:

Your boyfriend is Gandalf!?

(Vu says it's the same voice actor.)

Sjofn has a lot of boyfriends she's never scene, only heard.  :oh_i_see:

I have also never seen them.  :grin:

It's true, though, I fall in love with voice actors at the drop of a hat.

It's okay.  My friends and I had a thing for Takahito Koyasu back in my anime days, since he always played the cool character roles.  And I've forgotten more voice actresses' voices I loved than I can count.

In the DM's case, it was totally because he would "do voices" and stuff and it cracked my ass up.

People who thought f2p had a stigma were confused into thinking that f13 indicated anything about greater market trends.  F2P has created more good interesting titles then sub games since I dunno Gunbound?  The only stigma that was legit is/was that the best f2p games aren't really mmo's they are lobby + game room systems.  I really think of WoW as a lobby + game room system game for all intents and purposes these days though.

Also since what we have learned here that probably does apply across the board is that MMO's lose popularity as people play more of them and this dovetails with people aging and losing their infinite gaming time to jobs, gf's, spouses, children then f2p is really fast becoming the only model that makes sense because the player pool is getting younger every week.

He just kept talking in one long incredibly unbroken sentence, moving from topic to topic, such that no one had the chance to interrupt him; it was really quite hypnotic.

F2P makes a lot more sense because I can trial a game for free and come back to it when I want, rather than paying $80 for box and then $15 a month.

There's something quite endearing about his externalized internal monologue that I can't help but to like. Maybe it's the Hunter S. Thompson picky that does it.  :heart:

Also, I can't believe I know where WUA's quote is from. I'm such a nerd.

Exactly. I had one of those 10 day trials they offered when the game came out. Last week I logged in and my characters were all still there. I got to hop in the game, run around a little bit and decide if I want to actually throw money at it.

Though after an interesting discussion with a friend of mine, I found out he has spent roughly $220 on DDO in the last 2 months trying to maximize his character. Now, according to him that isn't too uncommon in the high-level crowd.

It does seems that DDO players on average are older, in comparison to other MMO player bases, and have a little bit more money to play with. Typically they start playing DDO as a fix for their tabletop D&D nostalgia, and get hooked because of the social aspects of a MMO. If they want to spend $30 to "reincarnate" their character or get +2 Tome of Strength, it isn't as big of an issue as say someone in college who is eating ramen daily.


Edit: Oh, my first post after all these years!

Holy crap!

Long ago, I tried to get a friend into selling EQ items on ebay, people would pay stupid amounts for stuff. I later found out from his wife that he blew over $400 on a manastone. And the guy selling it fucked him on it, didn't deliver. Lolz.

But I guess it does put that $25 mount from EQ2 into perspective.

(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:phAQ-U3TNjPMCM:http://www.seacoastnh.com/navyyard/res/ptbarnum.jpg)

It's not surprising though.  The DDO devs have said that since going to F2P model, average $$ per player has increased from flat-subscription numbers.

I've been playing DDO with a friend recently and can understand as well.  If you're wanting a PvE MMO that is decidedly NOT WoW, then DDO is a fine choice.  At least for one run through the dungeons. 

I'm in the same boat, or at least that looks the same.

In between the WoW raids I somehow still put up with, I enjoy a DDO dungeon run once every once and a while. Granted I've only enjoyed a few runs in the last two weeks, they are incredibly enjoyable. Be it with the ole guild-mates or real life buddies I play tabletop D&D with on Saturdays.

If you have spent any time in/around f2p + cash shop MMO's you would know its both the very old and the very young that spend that kind of money on them.  I've seen many 14 and under kids spending $50/wk on f2p games and the well off quite old set (40-50) will spend even higher amounts.  For the most part its the 17-35 set that actually plays these guys w/out spending a dime.

Battlefield Heroes is using that too, I see more and more people buying stuff after they try it for a couple of days.