f13.net

Good read Hrose.  I enjoyed the overall flow and can see with better insight into the game that you have been preaching over here.

The Post in Question (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=10442&P=1&ReplyCount=18#post10442)

Would you mind tackling the point of the environment and whether you think it will dry on you, right now your in the honeymoon, what is different between this game and say the frist few weeks of DAOC that you experienced?

I can't get past how much his name looks like mmorpGENITALIA. Okay, now I'm going back to actually read it.

I found his comments on the 24 hour game day intersting. It deffinatly is an odd idea though and I am thinking I probably won't like it. The reason for that is it will always be dusk or night time when I am playing. Hehe if it stays that way I am playing undead so that I can avoid sunlife in both real life and in game.

Kaid

I don't think the honeymoon is going to finish soon. When I started with DAoC I was coming just from a long experience with Ultima Online. I really liked the whole 3d environment and the fact that it was so easy to find a group and have fun. It was new and interesting and remember that I cannot speak of DAoC as a bad game. I still have played it for two whole years.

World of Warcraft is about the same "jump" I made from UO to DAoC. Now it's about a jump from DAoC to WoW. But the game is definitely fun and they solved every broken mechanics. Finally. Byebye to all the game mechanics based solely on risk/reward and grinding. While other mmorpgs are designed to frustrate you (and I really wonder why, at this point), WoW is designed to *please* you. It wants you to be happy, nor to die and make you loose all your exp you grinded in the last hour.

I don't think the fun I'm having is bound to the fact that it's new. I didn't have this fun with SWG, nor with Shadowbane and perhaps a just little bit with FFXI.

WoW simply takes (considering what we are testing now, the first 30 levels) the very best from DAoC, EQ and FFXI. Improving and polishing every single aspect. The result is the exact opposite of a "patchwork".

Holy fuck, that IS insanely long.  Will have to try and read it.

No, WoW sucks. Everybody knows it. Didn't you get the memo?
---
Wait...you actually played it and THEN formed an opinion? WTF!

Its less of a post and more of a manifesto I had to skip parts to keep from nodding off but there is some interesting stuff in there.

kaid

Holy Crap, that's a lot of words.  I can't imagine having the time to read it, let alone write it!

I'll assume it says "wow = teh gud"

Maybe print it out and spend lunch reading some but.... jesus

I like that you didn't go fanboi in it, other than your editorialized intro and conclusions which are naturally expected to be your own slant on the product.

I must admit that all your other writing on WoW on THIS board made me gag due to the fanboi content.  At least in the MUCH LARGER context you were more accepting of obvious flaws that all games exhibit.  Stating flaws does not lower the readers opinion, but instead lets the reader realize you are not a blind dumbfuck who spent their ingame time drooling and pointing at pretty colors.

From what I have read so far it is a good writeup.

I have not been looking at other WoW writeups so I was disapointed that you pretty much skipped the only important part, the gameplay.  No matter how good you think the graphics, sound, etc in the game is, the gameplay is what matters.  These other things can certainly enhance gameplay though.   The animations in EQ for example detract from gameplay because there is no correlation to what is really happening.  At moderate level and higher, your character stops swinging in time to his attacks and the combat starts taking place in the chat window, not in the gameworld.  That is bad.  Good graphics and animations avoid that.

But it still sounds like the combat is press autoattack and then the occasional hotbutton.  I am pretty tired of that.  Taking concentration off the combat by making it a byproduct of completing quests helps, but only if the quests are engaging in their own right or involve more than simple combat.  Stuff probably covered in those other reviews you allude to, but that I have not read and don't really care enough to hunt down.

I disagree with your comments on the 24 hour clock.  And the idea that a slower night/day cycle helps performance is ludicrous.  Unless night and day swap at strobe light speeds.  I don't look forward to a game of permanent darkness except on weekends.  That is a deterrent and who knows, maybe it will even depress me since I have seasonal depression problems.

Your point on controls for camera 'stiffness' are more important than I think you realize.  A slow, smooth moving camera will keep many from being able to play the game.  It is a great way to get motion sickness.  A stable, highly responsive camera at least as an option is required.   My wife suffers a lot from motion sickness and some games make her ill in seconds.  Its not a minor point, but a complete and total gamestopper for many.  It took AO awhile to get a working camera for her. She could not play the beta for example.  When SWG mounts came in she could not use them at first because the camera was locked to a fixed point on the mount, but the mount was always slightly in motion, bobbing and swaying a little.  A few seconds of this would make her ill.  It was soon fixed by attaching the camera to a fixed point relative to the bounding box that did not animate at standstill and did not bounce when running.  All mmogs my wife has played have implemented a proper camera in at least the first month of operation.  It is something that often gets left till the end, but usually is not overlooked for long once people start paying for a game that makes them physically sick.

Nice writeup HRose...gave me something to read for a half hour at work :P   I really wish I woulda got a damn beta invite...sigh, oh well.

Excellent read, HRose.  It just makes me yearn for the game even more now.  I just hope that Blizzard gets the endgame right.  I also hope that they can implement some PVP.

-Liquidator

I really....really...wanna dig that rogue class. I hope they are useful in PvP, and not gimped all to hell.

The game seems to be moving along quite nicely in concept too.

Same, rogues sound fun in this game. Wishing i'd got into beta more and more. Ah well. It will suck soon and then i can be pious and preachy about the downfall of MMOG's! ...

I did that because I simply cannot comment without spending more time in the game. I left out from my writeup even other parts, like tradeskills for example.

For now the combat isn't much more than autoattack. Your character can use its shield, dodge and I think even parry but those actions are triggered automatically, you just see the animation and a label above the head when it happens. My usual combat situation is like this:

1- Target the mob
2- Use a style that charges the mob (it warps where the mob is)
3- The charge style gives me a bit of "rage" which is more or less the endurance in DAoC, but in this case you start with the bar empty and as you hit and got hit the bar will fill up.
4- As I have enough rage I can use one of my two styles, one is just an harder attack, the other is a DOT. I can also use a buff for damage when it wears off, because it lasts only 2 minutes and I cannot buff before combat since I have no "rage".

The point is that combat is still fast paced and fun. You can also get involved in little battles with more than one mob, and this in solo, not with a full featured group supporting you.

But it's not all about the fun. You need to consider that it's absolutely easy to outrun creatures and after the fights you don't need to sit. Generally you can chain-kill. Even when you need to sit the health will go up quickly and you can still use meat and potions to erase the downtime. Potions don't ruin the game as I expected because you cannot use them while in combat.

About the camera. It is resposive, the smooth effects is just about zooming in/out.

P.S.
If you think about it you'll see how the "rage" idea is a smart improvement over DAoC. In DAoC you have endurance and if the combat lasts too long you can just watch your character die, since you cannot sprint, nor defend yourself.
In WoW you have the opposite process, as you combat you can use more and more styles. You won't need to wait and die. There's also no sprint ability, you just run around as always so you can try to flee in a critical situation.
These are again nifty features conceived to make the game fun and not frustrating.

HA, I was just going to post the exact same thing.

Nice write up HRose.


I am a bit worried about the 24 hour night/day cycle, since mostly I get to play later on in the evening, and I dont want to play in the games night time, every time I play. I was thinking maybe a 8 hour cycle would be good, or maybe even a 6 hour, thats still a long time, not not insanely long like the 24 hour one.

P.S. any one know when Phase 2 invites get sent?

These people are worried about that too.  

Warning: for entertainment purposes only.

The 24 hour day is craptacular.  I agree that the short days that EQ have make the player pretty much unaware of time passing.  However, I don't want to see the world as it stands only from 9pm to midnight every single time I play.

Make it long, sure.  Make it 19 hours.  Hell, make it 27 hours.  Just don't make it 24.

The thing I just don't get is the graphics people are all raving about.  I have watched the videos and taken a look at the screenshots... they're just not doing much for me.  Maybe it will be different in game, but right now they just look like AC1 with some brighter colors and the landscaping is better.  The low poly counts just make it look like it is from 5 years ago.

The graphics are amazing.  Not from a technical standpoint, but from an artistic point of view.  Some people just don't enjoy that style of art.

Now that is a good perspective.  Very nice.  If the rest of the praise your giving is coming from similar issues then I can see more light in the dark.

The 24 hour cycle is a worry to me also, would suck donkey balls if I have to play in the dark all the time.

How does multi mob combat feel?  In EQ, it was sh*t on a pancake if you were solo, in DAOC it was not a positive, but mass combat felt much smoother and exciting.  Does WOW raise the bar here?

I don't know if that link was sarcastic, a late april fools joke, or a sign of the apocalypse.  I am scared though.

Besides, 24 hour clock will only function for matching the outdoors in one timezone at best.

I should save that link for my essay on the need for some bleach in the gene pool.

Ya know, I'm kinda interested in the 24 hour game time.  I'm thinking about what it would be like if I was 80% playing in the Night Time... and I might roleplay that I'm a Night Person (of some sort).  If I play in a day time situation I could moan and gripe about how bright the sun is and stuff like that.

It actually sounds kinda cool to me.

As long as it's not EQ style "I CAN'T FUCKING SEE A THING" dark, I won't mind.  EQ kinda sucked at night, so did Dark Age for that matter.  Rest assured, if it does end up being some sort of big deal, I'll be playing a race with eyes like an owl (or not playing at all, but that's always a possibility with these games).

I'd be entirely happy if it was daytime everywhere 100% of the time.

Straining my already knackered eyes to spot dark grey/blue shapes against a dark grey/blue background is not fun.

If it's set up so that you can see what you are doing equally well night or day, and the change is purely cosmetic, then fine. DAoC/EQ night just isn't fun or interesting (or even immersive) though.

Observation:

Plenty of single player games manage to include non-annoying passages that happen at night. Mostly they do so by not giving the player an unnecessary level of night-blindness.

That is a choice not being made by you though.  And how creative do you really think that is?  I'll bet 50% of north american gamers have that schtick somewhere in their bio shortly after launch.

I really don't see a single advantage in changing the day/night cycle.

Holy shit, I love this quote. It sums up the problem with most PVE-centric MMOG players.



OMG THE WORLD CHANGED I'M SO QUITTING AND GOING TO....

I don't see how you have the right to complain about PVP stereotypes when you promote just as bad stereo types about the PVE crowd.  They are a big crowd just like the PVP crowd and in both crowd you can find every single motivation you can dream up.  Even "I kill the mob because it makes me orgasm" somewhere if you searched enough.  Just like in the PVE crowd SOMEWHERE is somesick kid who PVP griefs because the devil makes him do it.

I personally can't see the link as any more than sarcasm that he just ran with when so many people believed it.

I just noted it as another shining example of the BattleNet/Vault/Whiny Carebear types.

PVP has its own dirty little Mongoloid retards. All you have to do is log in to Lineage 2 to see their complaints.

In WoW the night affects just the temperature of the color, nothing else.

I did some exploring in the last days and I'm starting to see some repetition. Recycled buildings, recycled monsters and so on (like the same type of boar with just a different name and level). Some zones are quite desolated and empty. I guess they have a lot to do about the content.

At level 9 my warrior has more things to fiddle with:

- The "charge" style to warp to the mob and build up the "rage"
- The style to increase the damage
- The DOT
- The group buff for damage
- A "pummel" style which should work against casters
- A PBAOE damage spell which slow down up to 4 targed

The last one is very useful when everything starts to aggro on you and you need to run for your life :)

Plus I have three passive abilities to dodge, parry and block.

Well, HRose, you mention Morrowind. OKay! Same boat kinda guy. I bet you liked Planescape:Torment and Fallout. You based your review on awe-inspired single-player MMXXX-gaming. That`s a questionable choice, at best, given the harsh post-launch realities... but you nevertheless notched my interest in WoW up considerably.

Now, as you meander in that review, I`ll follow suit:

Communications. Hmmm.

If you hung out on the SWG-prelaunch boards: The lad who has the comm-thing really thought through, Raph K., was amazingly communicative, utterly responsive, quite honest, deeply feeling, you-name-it-ish... and look at what he delivered! And what happened to said communcations once the lemmings counted in the 100-thousands...

You (and I) like the world-thingy. You seem to have (for lack of a better explanation) the "European" perspective on incentives set by the devs, and the responsibility that this should imply for the devs ("The game doesn't ask you to be an ass."). There`s a Moral Imperative somewhere in there. Most devs will roll their eyes at this point. I can even understand them ... after all, they and their companies are in it to make jinx.

That brings me to point no. 1. What sort of communications do we realistically aim for here?

On one side, we have the devs that can set the rules of the world... as long as they stay within their company's business plan (target audiences, dev-costs, running costs, profit expectations). Well...

On the other side: The "players", whom, yessir, we all love dearly. Wouldn`t we really, gladly, comfortably hand over the government of this our beloved online world to these our beloved players? To "us"? Awwww (actually, I have to check on ATITD again... if it just weren`t such a grind.)

Sarcasm aside, that research you mention about large companies and communications with their staff. Interesting! Does that help yet? Kinda a downer to think of us as "their" employees, but given that you find "I WORKED so HARD for this" on every MMXXX board you might actually be up to something here...

Point no. 2: I live in a foreign country for quite a few years now. A rather awesome country in many ways. But I can`t participate democratically in the decision process here, and I know its temporary. I stay detached, as I can always leave. I`m not afraid to let the door to airport gate 5 hit me in the ass on my way home. Does that help or hinder if I were to communicate with the rulers-that-be in a wold-affecting way?  

Given points 1 and 2 above, which complicate communications that are both meaningful/world-shaping and realistic, I don`t care anymore about communications with devs. I behave much like the average comrade behaved in the socialist countries of old: I organize my tiny little daily life with my tiny little group of friends to have some fun... and don`t give a shit about the grand scheme of things and the politbureau... which, as every comrade knew, suxors anyway. And I`m happy cuz I`m better off than those comrades ever were (remember that door hitting me in the ass? Hehe... I love that door).

I also accept that I live online within Orwell's wettest dreams. And hope that he makes full use of his tools to watch each and every move I make, and grind it through his databases and statistical analyses. Let my data-trail communicate with him... if he's competent that will tell him enough to find out where I cheat, and get his world closer to fairness. Yup, I liked the stuff you wrote on PvP, too, and to finally get over the barrier of entry to WoW, I'll need info on PvP... Morrowind notwithstanding ;)  

~bignatz


PS: On the off chance that you didn`t read this yet: Raph's spin on managing large online communities (http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/gdc_2002_community_files/frame.htm)

I like Raph when he deals with the community, I don't like him when he deals with the game.

The first thing I would do, if I was in charge of the design of a mmorpg, is to open completely my ideas. Spending time to explain how I would build the world and why.

I'm more than sure that a brainstorming process involving the whole community could do very good to the design itself. You'll be able to see things from a new prespective, players will suggest you a better solution and so on.

Discussing, as we do in "this community", is always good and positive because it brings to develop ideas. And this is completely different from giving the community the control of the game.

It's not building polls to let players decide. It's about discussing your ideas, see how they are perceived and build a process to make things better.

For example, instead of just nerf things and write that on the patch notes, I would enter in the community and explain the plans and why I'm going to do that. This way before pushing the thing live. To know what players think, to understand if it's the best way possible and so on.

But this whole process must rely completely on the honesty and this is something more unique than rare.

Guess what the first thing your investors tell you to do will be.

Hahahhahahahah.

To get serious for a moment, how about we just get someone with their own ideas and insight try to develop a good, fun mmorpg, instead of more hacks trying to cash in on the fantasmical combination of a proven name brand and the "untapped" revenue potention of the mmorpg money tree.

Nah, fuck it.  Bring on MEO.

Hrose, brainstorming with the whole community is what gave us SWG.  Half the good ideas were stripped out due to the 'community' bitching up a storm about interdependency.  The remaining good ideas sucked without all the missing parts of the puzzle.  Which left us with same old same old with better crafting.  A dev needs to understand what is fun, and then just do it.  You cannot get ideas from the playerbase.  The most vocal are also the least intelligent/qualified.



None of those skills look 'fun' to me.  And you can only do them when your rage builds up?  Except for the charge I would assume.  The only interactive thing I see there is pummel, but that is no different than EQ bash in concept.  Hit the button when caster casts, hope for best.  It may work more often, but it still is the same gameplay.

Let me make a stab at how combat goes?  You click on the mob, click on 'charge' button.  Watch your rage meter build.  then either do your extra damage style or your dot style depending on how long the battle will last.  Repeat.  I AM playing abit of devils advocate here BTW, not just being an ass.

In Lineage 2 I would press F1 to equip the bow, target mob, F2 to fire bow power shot, click to mob to fire one regular arrow at it, press F3 and F4 to equip sword and shield.  Press F5 when mob approaches to powerhit it with my sword.  Watch battle while power attack comes back, and then decide if I need another or if mob is dead.  Battle took about 6 seconds or so.  Repeat.  Lots of button pressing, but not fun.

Taking attention off the combat would help like WoW states to do with questing, but what kinds of quests does it have so far?  Any fun ones?

No, no it wouldn't. Sure, you'll be able to see things from a hundred new perspectives, 99 and 1/2 of which would probably be completely fucking stupid.

Design by community on an MMOG, with the vast amount of mouth-breathers out there would be a cluster fuck of epic proportions. No amount of Vault-esque posters is ever going to be able to agree on a design. The place to put community involvement in is early alpha. Once you get into the third or fourth stage of beta, nothing can be gained designwise by calling on the community other than catering to the loudest whiners. If your design isn't solid and fun by early alpha, it never will be.

I've posted two screenshot for the italian website about night/day cycle.
You can see that during the night the light changes and transforms the colors, but it doesn't affect the visibility.
(and notice the light at the window of the house)

http://web.tiscali.it/hrose/wowday02.jpg
http://web.tiscali.it/hrose/wowday03.jpg

Probably you need to copy and paste the link to see the images.

Yeah, I have seen a ton of day/night images and all they do is change the color pretty much, but I like the variety of the day night sequence in my play session.  Not all night all the time except on weekends.  I see no reason at all to make the day/night a 24 hour schedule.  I have yet to hear a single argument for it.

I hated the 24-hour schedule when I started. It fell off to mild dislike over the 5 months I played. I only play at nights; on weekends I tend to have to get family stuff done before I get to play, so it's usually late afternoon before I'm in game. I don't want to see the same thing all the time; I want to see variety.

Two things have happened in the last month or so that have caused me to rather like the cycle. One thing is what Blizzard did: the cycle used to be on about the same "sunset/sunrise" cycle as California (where I happen to be). They changed this to a sunset about 2 hours after our California sunset. So, even when I get home late, I've got an hour or so of sun and a sunset in game. The second is what I did: I found myself getting more addicted to the game rather than less (dammit). The moon coming up gives me a clue "it's late, get yer ass to bed."

That's not a terribly good argument "for" the strange cycle (why would a gaming company care if I sleep?). But eh, it's all I got.

Invalid argument.  If the game did a more standard day/night schedule you would probably get a sunny day, a sunset and a sunrise in your gaming time.



That is bizaare, but at least is a positive point.  I don't think it outweighs the negatives, but it is at least something.  And the first and only positive thing I have heard about it.  Moon alarm clock.  The sucky thing is, my favorite time in gameworlds is sunrise.  And I will never see one.

That depends on what timezone your server is on, doesn't it?

Yeah, but the problem with timezone is a big reason to NOT do a 24 hour gameclock.  It is even more freaking pointless if day is night and night is day.

I'm assuming that there are no quests that require being in the graveyard at midnight?  Basically, does the day/night cycle have any effect on the game other than the color?

Sounds like the day/night cycle is utterly pointless other than colors used.  Which makes me dislike the system even more.  I like the idea of the world changing with the day/night cycle.  Pretty much forced into making the world static with a 24 hour clock or you are restricting content in a big way to those in other timezones.

Most MMOGs are pretty static with day/night anyway.  Eventually ease of use trumps immersion in this regard.  If merchants had a schedule, people would bitch up a storm about having to wait till morning.  It would be worse than the EQ boat bitching.  I don't necessarily disagree with any of this bitching by the way.  Game should be fun.  Wish we could do realism and fun at the same time, but in many ways they clash very strongly.

In FFXI some shops are on a schedule (mostly crafting guilds) and different enemies appear at different times. It's pretty cool that in some areas once dusk starts to settle players retreat back into safe cubbyholes. (Quifim comes to mind)

That sort of thing doesn't make sense with a real 24 hour in game day. That might mean that during my typical playing hours the guild I want is ALWAYS closed.

If you commit to a real 24 hour cycle, I think you are forced to erase major distinctions between day/night.

Only thing I can see really positive in a 24 hour cycle is the scheduling of game events in days and it actually being in game days.

That is one positive thought, all though I do get a chuckle from the need to hit the sack by seeing the moon rise.

Yeah, about 3 years ago undead invidaded Kithicor in EQ.  By day the zone is newbie level, Mobs max out at maybe level 5 or so (with exception of a few fixed camps of dark elves).  During the night it becomes level 30-40 undead.  Maybe higher even.  I forget.  They kick your ass if you are not pretty high level and grouped though.  Especially since many are shadowknights and have huge harmtouches.

The result was a ton of bitching because kithicor is a zone that needed to be traveled to get across the continent.  Even though the bitching was stupid because you could stay up on the zonewall and be safe even at night.  I never died except the first day where I failed to read the patch notes warning about kithicor...  That was a brutal shock.

I like a game that changes with the day/night cycle, but I know that at least a very VOCAL group does not.  I don't know if they are minority or not.

In FFXI, do people bitch and complain about having to wait till the shops/guilds open up?

I think this almost solely applies to guilds. When the guild is closed you can still go into it, you just can't buy the items you need for crafting. It is a bit annoying but no biggie.

Now, if that applied to the auction house (where people do most of their shopping) I'm sure everyone would be complaining.