f13.net

I am not a car person. 

I've never flipped through magazines imagining what'd I buy if I had the money.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never bought a car magazine in my life.  I can change a tire and check the oil, but everything else I leave to People who Know Things.

Soooo when the family offered to buy me a (used) car because I'm actually going to be living the the States for a while, I had no idea where to start looking.  Still don't!  My dad is very much a car guy and has good infomation to offer, but I thought I'd ask you guys here to get a broader range of opinions.

Budget is roughly 15k.  The car needs to be able to survive Wisconsin winters, so maybe 4 wheel drive?  Although I've done a few winters in Wisconsin without 4 wheel drive, so maybe it's not required.  This is the type of thing I don't know!  Again, I'm not looking for a new car, but a decent used car that will last a while.

Maybe a medium sized SUV?  Something else?  What would you do in my situation?

Umm, if you have 15k, I'd suggest really buying a new car.  Most used cars can end up costing you a pretty penny in hidden repairs and such.


However if you are set on a used car, definitely go to a reliable dealer.  Like Carmax or something.  4wd is nice, but not totally necessary, just make sure you don't buy a rear wheel drive.  Front wheel drive will get you by in most situations. 

I'm not a huge car guy so I don't know lots of makes and models in my head, but one thing you can do is just look at what most of the people drive in your area.  It'll generally give you a good idea of what kind of car to look for.

There are lots of new cars for 15kish, but it'd be hard to get a new allwheel/4x4 for that much. If you expect to be driving when it's snowy (ie: you can't wait for the storm to pass and the roads to get thoroughly plowed) I would recommend a 4x4 - however, Wisconsin is fairly flat, so it's probably not a huge deal to go with a front-wheel drive car.

Personally, I'd look for a 4-5yo all-wheel-drive sedan/wagon/mini-SUV.

I'm partial to Subaru's, so something like this is nice: http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/1525474330.html

Buying used will take more research (carfax) and test drives, but you'll get more for your money, IMO.

15k?

Find a 2006/7 Honda Civic SI.

If you buy an SUV you're part of the fucking problem.

Edit: If 4WD is NECESSARY (lol Wisconsin), get a 2006 Subaru WRX.

Edit 2: If you aren't a pussy (FWD on Snow), get a 2006 Acura RSX Type-S. Was the last year they made them.

That has got to be the worst advice I have seen on this forum, ever (buy a new car). You don't buy a new car, ever, if you care at all about getting a deal, because the thing loses 1/4th it's value just driving it off the lot. Furthermore, IN THE OP he said he wasn't looking for a new car.

You buy a car with lower miles, (<30k) that's a year or two old; just a reliable sedan that maybe came off a lease. If you get a fairly boring commuter car, you don't generally have to worry about them abusing it.

Ignore schild, he's telling you what HE drives (a sports car) which is entirely outside your requirements or desires.

Dude, get a Kia Rio.  Starts at $11K and it'd be NEW.  As a Michigander I'm throwing down the gauntlet to your lame Wisconsin ass; 4WD is for pussies.

I don't throw this term around lightly, mostly because many of my friends would get angry about it.

But a Kia Rio is for faggots.

God they make ugly cars.

You don't have to listen for me, but I spent 6 months shopping for a used car and have driven both Toyotas and Hondas in terrible snow and can tell you flat out they're just fine. And if you're spending $15k of someone else's money, you might as well get a car that will retain it's value and not be a piece of shit ever.

Eh, I've twice bought cars that you are talking about and had to put more money into them after I got them.  It's really a matter of choice.  I'm not mechanically inclined at all, so if something goes wrong I like having a decent warranty to go off of.

Dude, I don't give a shit about cars.  It's strictly point a to point b for me.  That said, Kia has become a really reliable company, and they're cheap.

Yea, well, America doesn't need more people that don't give a fuck about cars. Put a man in a nice car and he'll get nice cars forever. Put him in a fucking ugly beater and he'll be the asshole you want to kill on the road forever.

I grew up and learned to drive in Rockies and the NW (Colorado, Montana, Washington), so I know a little about driving in snow and ice.  I'm going to echo the advice for a small import sedan with front wheel drive, the newest your budget can manage.  Not a Kia, but any other manufacturer is fine (not because they're ugly, but because I've never driven one and don't know how they handle or hold up).  Anti-lock brakes are a *must*, traction control is nice but not essential.  If it has slightly higher ground clearance, that's a good thing.

Forget 4WD.  If you aren't used to it, it can give you misplaced feelings of control and invulnerability, then you find out 4WD means you just spin all four tires at once and make a good impression of Bambi and Thumper on the frozen lake.  Get new tires (just a decent all-weather radial) on the front each winter, move the old front pair to the back.

Best snow car I ever had was a 78 Dodge Colt (actually a rebadged Mitsubishi Lancer).  Front wheel drive, high ground clearance and short wheelbase, had a 2-range transmission for when I wanted to creep along, and handled great in a skid.  Too bad they didn't have anti-lock brakes that far back.  Seriously, get the anti-lock brakes, using standard brakes in snow and ice is a skill that usually requires a couple of dents to acquire.

--Dave

You have spinners, don't you?  Admit it!

This is false, If you purchase a new car at the right time (heavy manufacturer+dealer rebates) you can avoid the hit.  Also with a new car you know exactly what it has been through.  When I purchased my Tundra the used 2 year old ones with under 40k mileage were going for just over 21k (sticker not including tax/license/ext warranty), my new Tundra was 23.5k out the door (after 5k in rebates, tax/license included).  Even assuming you could talk them down 15% off the sticker on a used model I would only have been saving under 3-4k and 3-4k < 40,000 miles (or 2-3 years extra of driving).

The best way to minimize your losses on any car is to drive it until it dies (unless maybe you are one of those people that drives insane distances per year).  

That all said if you have 15k to spend I would recommend a FWD (no need for a 4WD) and shoot for something that is at most 2 years old, I would definitely check out Carmax and stay clear of anything domestic (Honda>Toyota>Nissan being my personal preference).  I seriously doubt you will find a Acura, Lexus or Infiniti that is under 2 years old for 15k or less.  A Nissan Altima might be a good choice, it has plenty of power, is front wheel drive and you can probably pick one up that is under 2 years old.

Hoooly crap this thread filled up fast.

A couple more things:

- My dad (who will be the person actually buying the car) has done this before, many times.  I've got a lot of siblings, and they've pretty much all gotten a used car at high school or college graduation; the only reason I haven't is because I've been living abroad off and on for a while.  He's a smart guy, knows cars, and really enjoys getting the best deal possible. 

- Probably don't want a sports car.  Not really my thing.  You can try to change my mind though.  On the other side, a normal sedan sounds kind of boring, but probably can't be too choosy at this point in life!

Anyway.  Good stuff so far.  Looking forward to more.

Hard to go wrong with this regardless of climate.

Agreed, but old people keep them a long time and young people drive them too hard. So finding one in good shape may be hard.

Yeehaw! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-TOYOTA-FJ-CRUISER-AUTO-PARKING-SENSORS-DIFF-LOCK_W0QQitemZ260527894928QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ca8ac3190)

Reliable, good value for it's class, can go anywhere. I think they just bumped it from compact to mid-size, where it kicks even more butt for the dollar.

Or if you like pickups, the Tundra mentioned is nice, so is the Tacoma for a smaller pickup. I miss my pickup, but the SUV package just works better for me for the most part. If I were going Subaru, I'd go for the Forester, though it's a bit station wagony imo. Heck of a car, my father loved his and he was a beemer/porsche guy in an earlier life (and a nascar racer before that lulz).

I really, really like Nissan.  My 2005 Altima is great.  The 2000 Maxima was great.  Hell, I liked the 1996 Maxima my wife had.  I drive hard and fast, and those cars support my habit.  I do hear good things about Honda, however, and I'd probably get one if I didn't have a Nissan handy.  Reliable, too... my Altima was totaled and salvaged and, other than a leaky sunroof, weird rattle and having to pry open the gas cover with my key, it's really keen.

I'm on my second Altima, currently at 102,000 miles with almost no problems (has to replace the exhaust gasket which was a problem on my model year).

I know I'll sound like an ass, but here goes nothing.

Why are you asking random people on the internet?
1) Your father is paying for the car
2) Your father knows a lot about cars
3) Your father is experienced in specifically buying used cars (for your siblings)
4) Assuming you are returning home to roost for a while, I assume he knows what you will need for the glacial movements of Wisconsin.
5) Your father probably has a vested interest in keeping you out of a burning inferno or stranded in a blizzard.
6) Typical Internet responses are those of fans.  There are cars that people trend toward, and their preference is usually based on a limited scope of actual experience, and a technical information base that has been cherry-picked to enforce those preferences.
7) Typical Internet peoples have a vested interest in seeing you end up on the Darwin Awards, just cuz.

Let your father handle the details.  At best, let him find what's available from trusted sources and give you options to choose from.  That way you can pick what looks "cool" to you, and it probably won't leave you in a ditch somewhere if you know how to drive.

HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR SUGGESTIONS, SIR!?

Saved me having to type it. Thanks.

The correct answer on buying a car is always the same: your best value is a used 1-3 year old (depending on budget) Toyota Corolla.

If you want 4wd I think the Matrix (which is a corolla with a different shell) comes with it.

If you stick with Toyota, Honda, or for 4wheel Suburu, it's hard to go wrong.

Subaru's are the car that people who drive in snow all the time drive. They're not just 4wheel, they're also heavy set and balanced well. I used to laugh while driving past 4x4 jeeps stuck in snow banks in my 2 wheel drive subie. if you hit a state like Vermont, they're one of the biggest brands and during a snowstorm, make up 2/3rds of what's still on the road.

Unless you're living 20 miles outside of town, you probably don't need 4 wheel drive and it's a pricey add on.

Buy used. You can frequently get new car bargains that are cheaper than used, but usually not with a quality brand.

Yeah, but it looks like a Tonka Truck. :-P

Guys, don't worry.  I found an 2005 Acura on Craigslist that looks awesome, the seller seems legit, but he said some other guys were interested too so I've already sent him the money on paypal.

...

...

...

 :awesome_for_real:

I'm asking for advice here because I legitimately don't know anything about the car market, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid.  I've looked around a lot of websites but they're mostly speaking a language I don't know, and I figured you guys would make suggestions that I could actually understand and give me a starting point for my own research.  Which is actuall exactly what's happened, so thanks!  And keep the suggestions coming.

Honestly, I might make an investment thread next just to troll some of you.  :heart:

I'd say 4WD over AWD. Typically you can turn off 4WD and you don't want to be stuck with AWD during the summer. Especially with gas getting crazy expensive.

I'll second Numtini's recommendation.  Also, buying a set of snow tires on a cheap set of steel wheels (assuming you have a place to store the other wheels) will go a long way towards making snow and ice less dangerous.

As an actual car person who maintains and repairs their own car until it's completely gone and unable to be saved, I can ditto alot of the advice here.  4WD is fine if you are driving from 15-20+ miles outside of town on somewhat poorly maintained roads, but in town just save the money and get a FWD car.  A used Corolla or Accord is an easy gimme car to get, since they have high reliability records over many years (even if they aren't particularly exciting to drive).  When buying one used though people can ask premiums on the price AND will get it due to their reputation, so keep that in mind.  Keep whatever you do get maintained and make sure to not perform said maintenance when the car has finally broken down ;-)  If you ever intend to take anyone besides you anywhere, a 4 door is another good idea (unless you hate giving people rides).

Subarus are great for snow and reliability, but I have no idea how badly it snows where you live and what you would have to be driving in on those days.  Toyota\Nissan\Honda are all pretty much interchangeable cars and you really can't go wrong.  Kias are not my favorite because I hate the way they ride and how cheaply made they are (granted, the last new Kia I rode in was a 2007).  I tried to do 70MPH to keep up with freeway traffic and the vibrations and road noise really turned me off.  Remember, if a new car price is ultra low, there's a reason for it (cheaply made or they can't give them away). 

As far as cars to avoid, I would specifically recommend against any GM product outside of Cadillac (outside your budget definitely) and some lower end Dodge and Fords as well.  Not because they are particularly the crap-boxes of yore everyone remembers, but because GM has a reputation of late as putting out products that are cheaply made but appear quality just long enough to get you shortly beyond the warrranty period when problems start to occur.  And they aren't the most serviceable vehicles anymore, which means any repairs (like a horribly designed plastic intake that WILL fail in 60-75k miles, ECM failure, transmission or suspension parts not designed to be serviced, etc) will cost you big bucks outside of the warranty period. 

This.  A Toyota Corolla or Honda Accord or Civic will run forever if you take care of it.  Suburu makes some nice little wagons if you want something that's a bit roomier for hauling people/stuff around but don't want to buy some absurd SUV.

Hell, the low end Civics are 15-16K new, it looks like, so I'd imagine if you're looking at 1-3 years old you can probably get something that's pretty nice for 15K.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd, we're back around to my recommendation.

2006/2007 Civic SI.

Just saying.

Edit: I just assume you can drive stick since you're European btw.

I'll tell you in the Bay Area I couldn't find a used Civic basic version for less then I paid for my Accord EX with leather seats.  Civic owners are stupid and insane when it comes to pricing their cars.  But I was at the bottom of the budget (under 6k) things are undoubtedly different towards the top (15k).

thread delivers though.

Serious question. What Car would you guys recommend for an overweight really tall guy. I'm 6 and a half feel tall. Have really long body lenght but the legs are on the long side too. One of the reasons I've held off on getting a car is simply the sheer agony of sitting in the bloody things. But frankly the bus isn;t much better these days.

How overweight? No, this isn't a dick question.

This is a common predicament in TX,the standard solution is to buy a truck.

I'm pretty heavy, but I don't look hugely overweight as I have a large frame, if that makes sense. I have a pretty large beer belly. I'm about 330-350 pounds

Again, part of the problem.

At that girth, you should really be test driving everything. It's not the leg room or headroom that will bother you. It's the seat comfort.

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks schild.

Yeah I would not buy a truck for the fuel economy problem.

I'm not European.  I did live in Prague for a while, but the transport system is so good there I never needed a car.  Or I had a friend with one. 

If I could drive a stick, I'd probably be more of a car guy.  And vice-versa.

Sounds like a great time to learn stick.

Also, yea, sorry about that, I knew you weren't European. >_>

I think with the snow and his not really giving a fuck about driving around like some a dickhead wannabe race car driver an automatic would be the wiser choice.  Pretty sure you are projecting your wants onto him by suggesting a stick.  There was a time in my life when I enjoyed driving a stick and I still occasionally do but for every 1 time I would enjoy driving a stick there are 99 times when I would rather drive an automatic.  I would also say that automatics are generally less maintenance, if for no other reason than someone can fry your clutch in a matter of hours if you loan your car to the wrong person.

I still drive my Intrepid. I'm 6'2", varied from 240 to 310 lbs, and have had a variety of gut sizes while owning it and it's still always been comfy. Since it's a big luxury car it also doesn't sink on one side when I get in it. You can get them used for dirt cheap since they're discontinued and have the generally poor reputation of being a Chrysler product. Most of that reputation has been undeserved with one BIG exception. The 2.7 liter engine absolutely does have a design flaw that causes the engine to lock up. They designed the oil passages too small and level. The catalytic converters are also inside the engine compartment. The combination causes oil to cook in the engine and eventually block oil flow. At about 80,000 miles the engine light will flicker on and about 5 minutes after that the engine locks up. Chrysler denies this is a design flaw and the result of poor maintenance, but it's pretty well documented and proven. The 3.X engines are fine though. The thing handles well, stops on a dime, is quiet inside, has never gotten stuck in North Ohio snow, and gets 26 miles a gallon city driving. I like to think bad decisions like discontinueing the model in order to go back to making rear wheel drive models contributed to them going tits-up.

Take a look at various Hyundai.  I'm 6'8 @ 400 lbs and I drive about 90 miles a day / 5 days a week with very little discomfort in a hyundai elantra.  I've also driven a hyundai sonata without feeling cramped as well.

In fact, the elantra was good for me at 480 lbs (which was what I was at last year before I started my diet)

The biggest front seat I've ever seen was the Geo Metro (Suzuki Swift I think in other markets). It was cavernous. A guy who delivered pizza for the shop I worked at had one. Car size is not the same as cabin size.

Last I heard he had moved up in the world and was playing poker professionally at Foxwoods.

That actually seems like moving down in the world.

If you don't care about reliability get a non-Japanese coupe, possibly one without a sunroof (though that'll hurt the car's resale value). Many if not most sedans can't move the driver's seat back far enough for those of us with long legs. And if does go back far enough you'll be looking at the B-pillar when you turn your head to look left. With a sunroof/moonroof you lose a lot of usable head room (at least an inch or so). I can't even fit my head in most Japanese "sporty" coupes with a sunroof without tilting my head. This is even with the seat lowered all the way down. Japanese family cars usually have more headroom but then the seat doesn't go back far enough.

The other issue is finding a seat that'll be comfortable. "Sport" seats especially can be an issue as they often have bottom side bolsters that can make it hard to fit your butt. I had this dilemma when specing my coupe's seats but I went with the sport seats even with my fat ass and never regretted it as the seat bottom bolsters flex "out" without cause too much pressure on my hips.
 

No place to go but up from pizza.

I'm 6'5" but not overly large.  I can find *most* newer *NON-SPORT* cars are decent for leg and head room, provided you are in the front seat (back seats are a completely different story).  I checked out a latest generation Mustang and hated the lack of room, and the previous generations had no foot room for my feet to operate the clutch.  But really, I recommend test driving *whatever* you want to own.  If you are transporting people like yourself around, I'd honestly recommend a Crown Victoria (ex-Police Interceptor as you can get one cheaply).  Roomy for 5 big adults, front seats are good for long hauls and miles, and the reliability of such a beast is pretty high.  Only downsize is the fuel economy in town for a v8 will stink.  But then, if you buy a full-size truck as recommended, you'd be in the same boat.  But yeah, need to know desires of the car.  A Geo Metro is actually not a bad front seater (which is, like I said, similar to most newer cars these days) but the rest of the car leaves ALOT to be desired and I'd personally not drive one if I had a choice.

*My* actual biggest complaint about newer cars is the wheel wells are put way up on the car in the passenger compartment, and thus my feet are considerably cramped in the front compartments.  I don't particularly like most newer cars because of how uncomfortable it is to place my feet.

I have never read worse car advice. 

I recommend a used Subaru Outback.

Having lived for years at 7300 feet in the Rockies, I agree with this 100%.   I've seen so many non-mountain people end up in the ditch with their expensive 4WD SUV's because of this false sense of security. 

As for the rest, get yourself a nice Honda, Nissan, or Toyota that's 1-3 years old.  You'll never regret it.

I hear that argument a lot. Is it an urban legend?  Where can I find a car with less than 1k mileage at 75% of the price of a new one?

Car lots in cities that lease a lot of cars. It's going to be a hard set of miles though.

I think that it's related more to what the dealer is prepared to buy it back at (which roughly sets the floor foor second hand pricing that won't go beyond what they sell at).

It doesn't matter if it's 1k or 10k, a new car loses a lot of it's value as soon as you drive it off the lot.  And what is with you idiots saying that a 4 wheel drive makes you feel like you have too much control so you should drive something that is more shitty in the snow.  Terrible advice.

If you have any questions about Subaru or the car business in general, feel free to ask.  My wife has 20 years in the business (currently an office manager at the local Subaru dealer) my Son is a mechanic, and I recently restored a 1967 Cadillac.

 

I believe they can sell anything with under 7500 miles (at least here in Utah and I think that is common) as "new" if it hasn't yet been registered, so it is pretty unlikely to find such a thing.

Everything new loses a lot of its resale value the minute you buy it. That doesn't make it less valuable. It's the same sort of terrible bullshit "fact" as saying all that imaginary money in our economy really existed. Sure, it might be an issue if you're going to sell the car in a week or trade it back in immediately, but who does that? Frankly, a new car with an extended warranty is worth more than it's "on-paper" value. Not having to worry about any automotive repair costs for a decade is a nice feeling.

Most of the time 4 wheel drive is dumb and for people trying to make up for small IQ's or smaller penii. The exceptions are possibly emergency responders and the military. A normal person living in a city never needs 4wd. Ever. Out in the country if you need a 4wd to drive on your roads, stay the fuck home that day or move to the city. The same advice goes for people living in the city, except they’ve already moved to the city. But anyway, here's what people are trying to say without insulting anyone's intelligence. Four wheel drive does not give you magical braking or handling powers. Being able to go faster on shitty, slick roads is a horrible idea for pretty much everyone because they're too dumb to realize that and in a best case scenario end up in a ditch. A front wheel drive car will not go as fast, but that's good because it will help keep you from losing control of your car. Just because your car lets you drive on unsafe roads doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or that you’ll be able to drive on them successfully. Plus, they get worse mileage and there’s more mechanical stuff that breaks and could need fixed. An important consideration under your “never buy new” philosophy.

Car mechanic for 25 years, airframe/powerplant mechanic for 20, restored a dozen+ cars, and am currently building an Ariel Atom knockoff in my garage. I win the mechanic waving contest.   

I've been stuck in my own driveway here in SLC and could have used 4wd or AWD plenty of times. I get by with my FWD but when it snows bad I really prefer my wife's CRV because the AWD just makes driving much less stressful. There was one of those nights recently where it rained at about 6 p.m., turned to sleet and then turned the roads to a pretty icy mess right after as the temp dropped. Luckily I was driving the CRV and got to drive around a bunch of dopes gunning it trying to just get up a slight incline and going nowhere.

The car I'm looking at now is an AWD Infiniti (the G35x) for this very reason. It may only be 10 days a year, but I'd rather have it than not frankly on those occasion and even when it is just rainy/slick it increases the safety factor.

Sir T, why don't you just find a car that fits and you get the seat re-padded by an upholstery shop?  For a few hundred bucks, you can get a shop to rip all of the padding out and replace it with some super-squishy memory foam and stack some more in while they're at it.  Expect to pay even less if they're mexican.

Also, I've found 2-seaters fit tall folks pretty well, I'm 6'5, and even my brothers Lotus Elise is pretty comfy legroom wise, once you can manage to actually get in the fucking thing.  My Z3 is comfy as hell, and in the summer time I've got the best visibility around.

Yup... this was a big reason I bought a new car in 2000 (Acura Integra GSR), which I'm still driving today, I've had to spend very little money maintaining (finally had to replace the original front brakes and battery in 2009, think I've replaced tires twice and wipers a couple times, etc). 

Every couple years I think about buying a different car, but this one's still working great, so I don't.  Lately, I've been somewhat tempted now that less-hideously-ugly hybrids are available (not a fan of the Prius), but still haven't seen anything compelling enough to make me want to buy right now when I have a car that works.

For the guys recommending stuff for SirT, remember he lives in Ireland and a lot of US cars aren't exported over here with a few notable exceptions (Jeeps, some smaller Chryslers).

Amen.  Living in CT, I see so many soccer mom's in the ditch in thier SUV's every single snowstorm that think 4wd means immunity to slippery road conditions.  It definitely makes driving forward easier, but those fucking tanks they drive sure as hell don't stop for shit, antilock or no.

I usually beep and wave.

And on topic, I second or third or wherever we are on the Honda Accord/Toyota Camry.  I picked up a demo about 5 years ago with about 2k miles on it for my mother for right around 15k.  She has yet to have anything at all go wrong with the car at all.  Find a nice used one, and drive it for the next 10 years.

I'm not overweight, but tall.. I tend to drive trucks, but bigger cars like Impalas work too (what I got atm). Also Volvos. Some of them at least. They are made by Swedes, after all.  :grin: And you can indeed find a nice used Volvo for 15k.

The seats are low and stiff, but they have plenty of clearance for legs and head.

Here is why I recommend a Subaru.

1) 4 Wheel drive. Looking at the opinions of the Masochists here they will be recommending that you drive on 4 bald tires because tires with tread give you too much confidence.  Getting suck in a snowbank sucks.  With a Front wheel drive, if you put one front tire in a snow bank it will spin and you can't get out.  A Subaru will pull right out.  Wisconsin gets a lot of snow.

2) Their used cars appreciated last year.  Yes, their value went up as they got a year older.   Don't expect this to happen every year though.


If you do end up buying a new car, don't get a loan for more than 42 months, no matter what it is.

8 years in the hill towns on the Mass side of the Vermont border. 25-30k miles a year of driving pizza. Put me down for front wheel drive with good clearance. I can't count the number of jeeps I drove past stuck in the snow.

Loving the 4WD hate. I guess I must've missed all the time I've spent in a ditch.

What most people consider shitty conditions, I consider fun driving. I've complained here before about the VSC system in my FJ that uses ABS to reduce sliding, I"m close to disabling it (and ABS, because it's not discreet enough to disable alone, apparently) because it's so dangerous in winter driving. Probably to protect the people you all seem to find littering ditches anywhere there is snow. I use sliding to my advantage and have for years. It reduces the fun of driving in the snow a lot, too.

I'm good with FWD, too, drove a Rabbit back in the 80s. Main difference from RWD-based vehicles (my FJ is part time 4WD) is that in snow you need to use the hand brake a lot more because the ass won't break loose. Actually, a hand braking FWD manual trans is probably the most fun in light snow conditions.

The only bad driving conditions are ice and other drivers.

I'm from Rutland VT.

I think the point being made wasn't 4wd will kill you  and everyone elsse on the road but rather 4wd can make you feelmore secure than you actually are especially if you're not very experienced at driving in those conditions. Which seems a fair point, time spent in the TA with students in army land rovers I've seen some peope do very stupid things because they were in tough, 4wd vehicles. In other words it makes you safer but if you're not experienced enough to know how much safer it can lead to doing stupid things. Which seems reasonable advice for someone's first car.

Idiots will drive like idiots regardless of the car they are in. 

Keep in mind that the amount of harm they can do to others varies with the vehicle mass and speed.  

NowhereMan hit my point on the head.  4WD gives a false sense of security, but can be a wonderful thing in the right hands.  

I think the point here is that most 4 wheel drives are heavier and a heavier car is going to brake worse in low traction situations than a lighter car.  Being able to drive a larger mass at faster speeds in a low traction situation without being aware of these facts leads to ending up in a ditch.  

Best handling car I ever drove in the snow was a Honda Civic, it is front wheel drive, has a nice weight distribution and isn't exactly heavy.  That all said a Subaru AWD isn't exactly in the heavy SUV class so I can see how that might be a nice snow car, probably has better clearance than the Civic too (although the Civic seemed somewhat capable of plowing through snow at bumper/hood height for short distances).

As far as the city folk not ever needing a 4wd, that is rubbish if you own a boat or something a 4wd has the gears to handle hauling/launching it w/o undo wear and tear on your trans.  Also, 4wd on pickups can come in handy in slippery situations since pretty much all 2wd pickups are rwd and have shit for traction when empty.

Back on topic:  Another thing to consider on the 1-2 year old honda/toyota/nissan vs. the 3-5 year old Acura/Lexus/Infiniti is that if you are buying a used car in Wisconsin chances are it is probably from Wisconsin and them snowy winters make for some hard miles.

total side note:  Toyota is having some quality problems lately.  I used to just blindly recommend them, but I don't anymore.  They really took their eye off the ball.

Oddly, there's only a couple of Toyota models that have quality issues, but they account for a lot of sales.  The Camry V6 and the Tundra - both of which got dropped from Consumer Report's 'recommended' list - are manufactured in the US.  Their J-VIN cars are still quite good.

I don't even think it's that so much, it's more that people have unrealistic expectations of what 4wd actually does. A lot of people seem to believe that magic 4wd pixies stop you from ever losing control of the car. I remember the very first time I was in the US, coming back from Cripple Creek down to Colorado Springs late at night on a snowy January evening. That road is pretty winding as it drops about half a mile in altitude and we came across a guy with his brand new 4wd truck on its roof, the wrong side of the guard wall. We stopped to see if he was ok (he was) and the very first words he said to us were 'I can't believe it tipped over, this is a 4wd! It's like none of the wheels had any grip!'

Judging by the number of Colorado residents who buy monster 4wds just to drive between their home in the city and the Walmart three blocks away I'd say he's not an outlier.

Most people are clueless about 4WD.  Even with years spent on the ranch we only ever engaged it if we had to go through a nasty mud hole or the terrain was so rough we might have a few tires off the ground.  It's the same batch of people who think they need an SUV to survive city life.

Sky, you're an anomoly.  You know how to drive in terrible conditions and enjoy doing so.  Race car drivers know how to go really fast without exploding against a wall.  Most people shouldn't be in either of those situations.

Is the V6 even sold outside of the US? I thought most other countries had a regular and turbo diesel 4?

Funny, I am not a big fan of ABS either as I learned to drive and still drive cars without them so I pump the pedal rather than just mashing it, which screws up most ABS setups when you do it.  I remember the one time it snowed 6" and froze solid in 2002, yet they didn't cancel classes so I had to drive a '72 RWD vehicle to class in it.  I was one of the few not spinning out and flying around the roads simply because I could manage the gas and brake with each foot, and manage to steer properly.  Didn't need ABS to do it, and there were ALOT of vehicle wrecks and 4WD vehicles in ditches along the road.  Granted, I wouldn't want to do it every single day but it sure was fun to test my driving skills...

The only time that old conventional braking is better than ABS is when building up a wedge of stuff will help you brake faster.  It's not the equipment that is the issue; the reality is that most Americans are now highly distracted drivers who don't pay attention.

There's too much 4WD talk to sift through, but most of the 4WD that people buy and think they're cool with is totally shit and will break the minute the actually take it to a creek or something. Some of the cars I see recommended with 4WD talk tells me people aren't actually... using the 4WD. [edit] Not here. I just mean in general.

I've muddled through extraordinary weather conditions in all sorts of vehicles.  During the winter, driving from the last ski lift in Taos to the village was pretty much a challenge on good days.  Driving to work in blinding snowstorms and roads that were sheets of ice was always good fun when I lived in the Monzano mountains.  4WD was nice when it was available to me. Having said that, I wouldn't drive an SUV or any sort of truck today.  I don't have a need or a desire for that.  Most people probably don't have the need, either - just the desire.  They just like to say it's because they have kids, dogs, planks of wood, huge bags of pot, whatever, to justify it.  We've had sports cars in the past because we enjoyed them.  I guess SUVs are easier to come up with the excuses if you get embarrassed.

Of course, quite a lot of the people I hear complaining about how bad other people drive seem to be delusional about their own driving, too.  I especially laugh when people tell me they might drive 30 miles over the limit, but they're very safe drivers.  Uh, okaaaay.  Once, when my sister picked us up at the airport, I complained that she was constantly answering her phone while she was driving.  Something we don't do.  She said, "Oh.  I have this nice hands free thingy."  She dug around in her hand bag, driving half with her knees while she found it and set it up.  It was funny after the initial terror subsided.  She doesn't do that anymore.  Thankfully.

Ugh.  

1. Linky for AWD and 4WD, if you don't want to google it yourself:  http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

There isn't a whole hell of alot of difference between many AWD and 4WD systems on pavement.  Offroad 4WD obviously takes into account differences in suspension, clearance, etc. that both stray and the firefox alluded to.

2.  There is no such thing as universal winter conditions.  

Sky is a Western NYer, so he gets fun with lake effect snow.  I'm Northern NE NY (stones throw from Quebec, sandwiched between the Adirondacks and Lake Champlain), so we have less snow but tend to get nastier temperature differentials which means a mix of heavy snow, ice/black ice, drifts, and nasty freezing rain.  Ab sounds like he gets more of the ice/sleet style winter.

After living in the Berkshires in Mass for four years while in college, I'd hesitate to call that winter.  Never put on a winter coat once.

3.  The only time I've ever seen significant numbers of overturned SUVs was on the highways south or north of Montreal, which has more to do with the nasty gusts of wind along the open fields and natural meterological conditions (which makes the Northern Tier of NY excellent for wind farms).  Used to see more tractor trailer overturned on the side of the road, and that's scary as shit.

I'd suggest the reason people are noting more SUVs or trucks off the road is that cars couldn't make it out of the driveway.


For winter, it depends on local conditions:

- 4WD/AWD SUVs or Pickups are excellent if you have to bull your way through heavy snow fall, drifts of snow, or just the tailings from snow plows that accumulate.  Cars, even with AWD and snow tires, sometimes don't have the clearance to get through that.  As Ab said, if you have hills and sleet/ice on the ground, sometimes regular 2WD won't get you up the hill.

- The higher vantage of trucks/SUVs is wonderful for city driving if you get significant snow falls.  That's because the snow gets plowed into high banks on side streets, which means you can't see what's coming from either direction in car at intersections, and need to sneak out.

- SNOW TIRES.  These are mandatory now in Quebec (not sure if it's just QC, or if its Canada-wide).  Snow tires give you much better traction, so much better turning and stopping.


Personally, I drive an Escape with AWD/4WD and decent all-weather tires.  The one time I've ended up off the road was on a steep hill, with wet/slick snow on top of ice, and I had been an idiot and not replaced my tires recently.  Half a dozen people in large trucks still slowed down and asked if I needed a pull out of the bank, and then proceeded to carry on up the hill with no problem.  Quite a few cars barely made it up the hill.

In a 2WD Grand Prix or my old Cutlass, I ended up off the road a whole hell of alot more.  I also spent a huge amount of time digging out the car so I could try and move it.  4WD/AWD meant I could just hop in and go.


If you're sticking to major/well plowed & sanded roads, virtually any front wheel drive car with snow tires works fine.  You will still spend a bunch of time digging out your car so you can move it, if you have significant snow fall and no garage.  

If you have to negotiate less maintained roads, higher clearance and 4WD/AWD may work better for you.  Or if you don't want to spend 15-20 minutes after every snowfall digging around your car before you can get a running start to move it....

Rear wheel drive is the devil.  This year, I've already had to help a client in a rear wheel drive car get out of our parking lot with only a 3-4" snow fall because the RWD was fucking useless and all the other men in my office are over 50.

Good stuff Johnny and I agree with all of it.  We do get the big snow here as well including lake effect off the Great Salt Lake.  I learned to drive here in a 78 MGB and it is possible to get by (and hella fun to do parking lot slide donuts) but if you have the opportunity to have AWD in a snowy climate you will be happy on those sketchy days.

I disagree with that being a bad thing. I love the look of those things. I also had Tonka Trucks when I was a kid, so that might have something to do with it.

I'm sitting in the middle of two nice fronts of lake effect, the hammer is about to drop, sky just got covered again after a nice couple sunny hours. I'm home feeling like shit but I do love getting out and getting the driveway cleaned off, wish I could've snuck off to some seasonal roads with the FJ. Got about eight inches from the first dump, this next one looks to be over a foot and then another wave in the morning. Fuck yeah!

Anyway, JC is right, even in my area there are a shitload of microclimates because of the hills and valleys. I lived for over a year up on the back end of the Tughill Plateau, and I didn't have my snowblower or FJ. I would LOVE living up there now (except the blackflies in the summer, of course).

RWD is a mixed bag. I like the way the ass breaks on it, no need for handbraking around corners. But my Ranger, I just couldn't get enough weight in the back for it to grip well enough, I was always getting stuck and having to shovel sand under the damn tire. Not in ditches, though, just driveways  :oh_i_see:

Some advice: if you get a good snowfall, hit up an empty parking lot and practice for a while. Do some donuts, but learn how the car handles in slides. I used to throw myself into uncontrolled slides and practice recovering. Then work on fun stuff like reverse 180s, make your passengers mess themselves even though you're in total control, people just don't expect that kind of thing. My fiancee hates when I slide around corners, but it's actually very safe if you know what you're doing. When I worked at welly mart overnights, they'd have us move our cars so they could plow the lot, I'd stay out there for fifteen minutes running through practice, every time I could. I'd also do it in the morning in the back lot if I could, it's a lot of fun, and once you get into an actual problem, you can let your reflexes take over while you panic  :grin:

I'm not a car expert but I'm a pretty good driver.  I'm also Canadian...

Up here the selling point for a 4WD is not driving in the snow.  That's usually taken care by the best winter tires you can find (on all wheels even if you have a front wheel drive, driving with 2 winter tires on the front and normal tires on the back is for noobs).

The selling point for 4WD are: not getting stuck in the snow, not having to shovel a parking space, park in exotic place when the parking is full at the restaurant/movie, getting out of the ditch with out a towing if you ever take it.  The added road adherence in certain situation is only icing on the cake.

Did you mean AWD? I don't see how FWD helps you in any of those situations ...... but maybe I'm an AWD snob.

4WD =/= off road capability.

Yeah, edited. I tough the F was for four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpskGOg1ewQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HUtwOApn6U

Stock clips to be fair.

Whoosh!

Really?

Just cause your car has 4WD/AWD doesn't mean it has the clearance/suspension to go off-roading.

Yeah. An Audi TT Quattro has 4WD but you wouldn't offroad in it.

Also, search "4wd stuck in {snow/sand/mud/dirt/driveway} for several thousand clips of SUV's, trucks, and Subarus stuck in stuff that many cars would make it through. A lot of them are people stuck in their own driveways. Including an H3 of all things. Personal favorite was some sort of Jeep stuck on a beach and some decrepid RV with luggage and bikes strapped to it drives past it.

I was just being specific as to the actual vehicle I have, it's decent off the road, even stock.

You can still get stuck with a 4WD, especially if you have bad tire.
It's still a huge improvement over standard FWD as far as not getting stuck.
Saying 4WD often get stuck where FWD does not is silly.

He'd better get a tracked amphibian vehicle with vertical lift capability.

Don't forget armor plating and countermeasures. In case he has to go to walmart.

I'm from Louisiana and I can assure you hovercrafts are way better than tracked amphibians.

Yea, you probably have the 2nd best stock 4x4 on the market  :raspberry:

 :mob:

I've been looking into the VSC disable mod, and apparently there are a couple out there. But, the 09 model comes with a VSC disable switch on the dash!  :oh_i_see: So now I'm trying to talk my dealer into installing the 09 switch in my 08. I doubt they will do it, but I'm stuck between a dangerous nanny feature and my warranty.

It depends on what is involved.  If it it involves a new ECM, etc in addition to the switch hardware, I doubt they'll do it and let you keep the warranty just because of the sheer amount of labor and part swapping involved.  If it is a simple feature that involves plugging a switch in to an existing port, that's a different manner.

Although, if you get a friendly dealer they might just install anything for you anyways.

Yeah, I dunno. Some are saying that it's a new ECM, some are saying you can load the codes into the existing ECM.

The hacks are all over the place and there are three or four leading theories. It's mostly trying to trick the ECM by sending the signal that you're in 4H while you're in 2H, because VSC is disabled in 4WD modes. But since I've seen dozens of threads with variations on those hacks, and about 3/4 of them requires cutting wires...eh.

I might try the simplest one, which is just unplugging the ABS module, though I worry about fouling the plugs with road goop.

Wha?

The plugs to his ABS module, not the spark plugs.  You could just zip-tie some thick plastic around each half of the plug to protect it.

Thanks for that. Couldn't make even the most remote connection between the ABS and spark plugs. ><

Talking with the family about this over Christmas. They live in Nfld, and apparently they tried to make it a law there this year but it was shot down. This is also the province that has the rule you only need a safety inspection when you sell a car and has a thriving "used snow tire" market at bigger stores.

Nova Scotia doesn't have a policy on snow tires either yet but luckily our weather is a bit wonky this year as this weekends 40 centimeters is melting/raining away. I'll do with all-seasons till they make it mandatory.

Used snow tires?  :ye_gods:

My fiancee recently had tires put on her car at the dealer, she was all stressed at a conference that day and didn't really pay attention during the call and they put on shitty tires. Thankfully we have the FJ for most driving, but she drives all over the place and her car is sucking in the snow...and it's a decent car in the snow (matrix).

Tires = important.

Unfortunately, I have the stock tires on my FJ because I can't afford $640+install+tax.  :oh_i_see:

People will do it!  Cheap out on things like re-caps...  They think they are smart for saving a buck too!

I do like snow tires in non-snow environments.  They make for an interesting light show when someone wants to chirp their tires...

Epilogue:

After test driving a good number of cars, I ended up with a black 2008 Mazda6 for slightly under my original budget of 15k.  Front wheel drive, automatic transmission (all I can drive), has about 30,000 miles on it, extended warranty, and most importantly, I love how it looks and handles. 

Now you all get to tell me how I made the wrong choice and wasted my money  :awesome_for_real:

Not me, those are really nice. We've had great luck with Mazdas. Including a Mercury branded "Mexican Mazda."

Nice choice.  When I bought my VW GTI, the Mazda 3 speed was a close contender.  I think you'll be very happy with the car.

I bought a Friday Afternoon Mazda 6 wagon.  Other than the AC randomly stopping working and blowing hot air (which the dealer ASSURED us was normal) and the complete lack of any sound deadener in the way-back (dealer had to install it and it still rattled like crazy after 3 trips to them to fix it) it was a decent car.  I wish it was better built, I'd still have it.  The ex hated it and got rid of it 6 months after we got it because of all the problems.  But that's just one person's experience.

I have a Mazda 3 (second one and wont purchase again due to dealership issues, but its not a car fault) but a word of warning. The rear wheel wells are prone to rust, same for the rear bumper area. We have heavy salting in the area during winter seasons and the rusting can be a real issue here.

We were car shopping recently and nearly went for the VW Tiguan. (Didn't in the end because we wanted more trunk space.) But it struck me as having a very roomy cabin (hence the smallish trunk). It also has good seat adjustments, and (a rarity these days) a nice high windscreen. The European version runs on clean diesel, so you won't be "part of the problem".

That actually makes fuckloads of sense.

Both very safe, strudy, cares with enormous omph when you need it (faster you overtake, the safer you are) and impressive handling.  And since you live in US, fuel costs are not an issue for you.




Guarantee and Assistance, do you even get them in that shithole which is US?
New cars have point, when you need them for business that require high reliability. When you have SLA signed, you cannnot go "oh, my 1999 Chevy just died, will be there in two days". It's also for people who don't want to have absolutely anything to do with their car, other than adding fuel. But those are dub people, as lack of proper car care can kill even most sturdy Toyota.



True. I have been shopping for one recently, they are helluva solid made (European engineering hell yeah!) and they're ridiculously cheap.

 

I still consider Kia a throwaway car. They have improved greatly, but the wear and tear they take seems to run them down faster than other brands. This could be due to type of owner, but I doubt it.

Our household has a Kia and an Audi and we're super happy with both vehicles. We live outside the city and the highways can get NASTY during the winter, so having two AWD vehicles has been awesome.

Audi's have a pretty good reputation and have really replaced BMWs as the car of choice for people who do a lot of driving. I would hope it's served you well.

I have access to a consumer reports account, so if you are into that kind of thing let me know and I will post the reliability record of whatever.

Audis are fabulous cars.  I just wish that I could afford one.  VW is as close to that level of engineering that I could afford.  $25k I can do.  $40k for a car is a bit out of reach. 

If you check out the consumer reports, VW is actually doing better than Audi. Audi has had reliability problems for some years. And VW has been taking its core offerings more upscale.

It was a fantastic find. No way I could afford, at this time, a brand new Audi, let alone a S4. I found a '04 S4 Avant that was owned by a car collector and needed to sell it to make room in his garage for his new additions. It only had 50k km (31k Miles) on it and only 16k KM (10k miles) since November '06 and he let it go for the price of a same year, higher KM A4.

I do a LOT of driving, so having a nice AWD car that's a hoot to drive has been awesome. The Quattro is amazing in the snow, though with the low clearance I have to be a bit careful. The majority of my mileage is on the highway however, so it's not something I have to worry about too much.

That's how my fiance ended up with the Matrix. VW priced themselves out of her budget, she loved her Golf and basically wanted a new one. Having previously driven a couple of Rabbits (incl a diesel), I was also considering one of their SUV-ish offerings (the toureg?), but it was a lot of dough.


The Wrangler just looked like an uncomfortable hunk of unreliable metal, I liked my Cherokee but it kept breaking down, so I was shy of Jeep. Also looked at an H3, I like the styling, but their reliability and quality is also a bit dodgy and while you can get one for about $7k less (bare) than a Toureg, they're still $10k more than the FJ, which also has great safety and reliability ratings.

When your FJ grows up, you can come & play with the Jeeps.

The Golf and the Matrix aren't that far apart.  For the base models its about $1500 difference (real price according to the USAA car buying service), less (~$750) if you only look at MSRP.

I'll agree about the VW SUVs, at least the Toureg, they rocket up in price quick but they aren't aimed at the budget market.  My friend has a Toureg and I would compare it very favorably with the BMW or Mercedes options in the same car class.

Are Hyundai's and Fords considered reliable these days? 

I'm looking at a buying a new car since my 1992 Accord decided to have a massive oil leak and I'm debating between a 2010/2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2010 Honda Accord,  and at a very very distant 3rd maybe a Ford Fusion. 

The warranty on the Hyundai's look great (as is the price).  Both Hyundai and Ford used to not be very good quality wise many years ago but I don't know how they stack up this year, and unsure of where to get information about it.

The reliability of Hyundai's is still questionable according to the Consumer Reports latest automobile addition. The girlfriend gets it and you can't access their sit without a sub, so I can't cut and paste their quotes on them. The warranty is fine and dandy, but if its in the shop - you aren't driving it, regardless if the repairs are "in the limits" of the warranty.

I have actually heard good things about the Fusions and they are sorta growing on me. Though I hestitate to give a nod to any car infested with Microsoft warez. Other than that, Ford is the only American car manufacturer that did well int he overall reliability ratings. The Fusions did comparable to the camry and accord, though the accord took the top spot.

Like i said, this is just coming from reading the CR car issue while I was eating dinner last night.

They are the same company.

Not quite, VW own something like 90% of Audi shares (according to Wiki) but they don't work on the same designs or factories AFAIK the way that new Skodas are just rebadged VW designs. Thus they have different reputations and different cars, though they're more and more similar now.

Public library ftw. Also can check the NADA guides for values on the cars you're looking at and also figure your trade-in value for your wreck while you're there.

edit: nm on NADA for the new cars, thought you were looking to buy used.

The entire auto industry is all about shared platforms to lower costs now.   The difference is mostly marketing.

I grew up and live currently in Michigan, and I actually miss my '94 S-10 pickup (RWD). Not because it was safe or good in the conditions, but because if you can drive like a man it's a lot of fun. Throw some salt bags in the back, and get ready to do some countersteering! WEEEEEE! Thing had 210k on it when I sold it, engine was still running great.

Also, as a Michigander, I'm not big on buying foreign cars. You can save the attacks on me and your reasoning why you love your Honda, I will continue to buy the best American product I can find. It's just the way, and place, I was raised. Growing up in Flint, if we saw a foreign car in our neighborhood it got fucked with. Bummer GM had to go to shit, along with my state.

Local guy just posted a 95 S-10 with 76k miles on Craigslist for $1500.  You're making me consider buying it as a work truck. 

Few questions for you: are the follow cars an "American product" or a "Foreign Product

Ford Fusion
Subaru Forester
Toyota Camry

My first vehicle was an 88 S-10.  Loved it.  Even though it had no AC (in Phoenix, AZ).   

I drive Hondas/Acuras now.  :awesome_for_real:

I have to confess that after driving BMW, Audi, VW, Nissan, and Mercedes autos that it's hard to drive a domestic.  They just lack the kind of refinement that you find in foreign (particularly German) cars.  I can't even explain it.  It's like wearing tailored clothing versus clothing off the rack.  You just feel more connected to the responsiveness of the vehicle in an almost indescribable way.  

Dare I say Fahrvergnügen?!?!

Ford Fusion - The Fusion is manufactured at Ford's Hermosillo Stamping & Assembly plant in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico

Subaru Forester - The Forester is produced at the Gunma Yajima Factory in Japan.

Toyota Camry - Toyota Camrys are produced at Georgetown, Kentucky, USA; Aichi, Japan; Melbourne, Australia; St. Petersburg, Russia, and in China (for the Chinese market only).The Chinese Camry shares its front and rear design with the Australian 6-cylinder Aurion. On April 20, 2007, Camry manufacturing began at Subaru of Indiana Automotive, Inc. in Lafayette, Indiana USA, with an intended annual production of ~100,000 units.


And yes, many domestic autos are produced in USA and Mexico/Canada.

You're not going to convince me of anything, I'll never purchase a car produced by a foreign company. I just won't. I won't convince you that American cars are American, because they aren't anymore.

All I know is how well this treated me, mine was a stick shift...no AC...no power anything. Had to change the water pump at about 190k. Alternator around then as well. Just standard stuff that dies. Did the clutch around 160 I think.

It was a great truck, so I would obviously recommend one. A lot of room under the hood so you can actually work on the sucker too.

I had an '84 S-15 and a '91 S-10. Still have the '91, but it's out at the parents farm and Dad uses it to bomb around the countryside.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out how you determine what's American and what is foreign.  For example, in my mind the Fusion is a foreign car because it's not made in America, while some Camrys are American made and others are not.

I have to know why.  I promise not to argue or debate it with you.  I just need to know.  I know many people like this yet none have a reason for this belief. 

So is a Jeep an American car or an Italian one?

I'm not saying it is completely logical, but I'd rather support a company that had half of my town on their payroll for decades. People not from here might equate it to living in a fishing town, but buying imported fish. The fish may be better quality, and maybe even cleaned here, but you are screwing your own town by not supporting the company that is based out of that town (and providing jobs/economy).

Then the fish company at home shuts down cause you kept buying the imported fish, you lose your job cause you made knives for the fish company that shut down, and now you can't afford any fish anymore.

There you go Nebu, that's my reason. Born and raised in Michigan. Home of GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

I'm pretty sure Chrysler is based out of Italy, not Michigan. 

Fair enough. 

See... no debate!

Well they still have
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Chrysler_Headquarters_Auburn_Hills_20060624.jpg/220px-Chrysler_Headquarters_Auburn_Hills_20060624.jpg)
here in Auburn Hills. I'm sure they still employ more Americans than Honda...though I have no real numbers to back it.

and quit fuckin' trolling. Your point is taken, we get it.

Maybe next time I get into this GM will be a German company.

Honda is around 35,000 Chrysler is anyone from 70k to 50k (and falling), depending how you define an employee.

Jeep factory is in Toledo, Ohio.

It is one of the last 4x4's around, it doesn't have IFS, it has a real transmission and a real transfer case, along with some of the best axle's available for its size.

It is kind of ironic, the US Military dumped the jeep and went with the GM crap of independent suspension and automatic transmissions, then after they get blown up easy, go looking for high stance vehicles with solid axles (and had manuals sluice boxes until Uncle Sam had to change it).

Dodge sold out and made the powerwagon automatic.

Ford F-250 & F-350's can get some decent 4x4 action.

Chevy sucks...no manual transmission and shitty IFS.

Of course it seems that all the companies that buy the Jeep brand go under.

Let's suppose you were going to get a used pickup truck that was just going to be for hauling wood from the lumber yard back to the house and maybe a few other things of that kind (say, a pallet of stone, plants from the nursery). Or heck, some other vehicle good for hauling heavy and/or awkwardly shaped stuff. What would you get? And how much would you expect to pay?

I've rented in the past for hauling stuff, but if I'm seriously going to keep making bookshelves, a stone wall, a treehouse and other projects, it's really going to mount up. I'd probably drive the truck to work, too, but my work is about five minutes from the house. Yes, I can walk or bike, but the road in between the house and the campus has no shoulder and people drive like raging asshats along it--I don't want to be trying to walk it or bike it at night, and the roundabout way is really quite roundabout. Plus: snow and rain and cold. Plus: I have to pick up the kid from school some days.

Also both of our cars are well over 100k miles so the time is probably coming where we've got to get a new family car. Next big breakdown or repair issue, probably. Got to be big enough that we can take our camping gear + dogs + 3 people in the summer. I like our Subaru Forester, so maybe I'd look at their stuff again.

I would buy a Utility trailer for $500 bucks and put a hitch on my Subaru.

Leaving aside the nationalism debate and going back to Ford and Hyundai, from memory, both of them have the same issue. Half their cars are at the top and half their cars are at the bottom. Have to look at CR or something to get beyond that, though from memory in both cases, the new designs are pretty good and the old designs are pretty bad.

The trailer is a good idea, though not perhaps as much right now as the Subaru is still the workhorse car that my wife uses most of the time.

The trailer is pretty good idea as long as you aren't hauling stuff all the time. The other part about a truck is being able to hop in and do the shit you need to do without the trailer hassle.

So, I guess it depends on how much you will use it.

I need a trailer for the FJ, anyone haul regularly? I've borrowed a couple and they have such tiny wheels I worry about running a load of wood from the Adirondacks on one and it seems anything with a normal axle/wheels is $$$.

Now that I got rid of my Dodge Dakota, a trailer would be nice .. if only I had a place to store it at the house.

If I had to buy a truck again, I'd probably buy a 2000+ turbo diesel of some sort (probably a Ford) for under $10k.

Like this:

http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/1629258962.html

Eh, stay away from the Ford diesels of the 2003 and up vintage.  Major major design problems there.  Go with the previous generation for a bullet-proof engine and drivetrain.

That said, right now I am looking at the 80's vintage diesel GM suburban for the fuel economy (18-20MPG vs the gas 8) and simplicity (no turbo == no blown head gaskets), because I dislike having an open bed, I want something to haul people around in when they come to visit, and I can work on it if it breaks.

Once again, where you are in the country depends on what your selection is and how much you are going to expect to pay.  Any place with rust is going to rule out vehicles more than 10ish years old unless you really want a rusty pile of crap.

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/2766/trailer2yq1.jpg)

That's actually a great idea, slog. I know a pretty good welder, would just have to find the parts for him.

I've also  seen Old Camping trailers converted as well.

Not that anyone really cares, but I'm excited so I'm posting it anyways.

After looking at what people were saying about Fords in here I gave them another look and really liked what I saw.  After seeing all the glowing reviews for it, and the packages/accessories being better than Hyundai's (and cheaper than Honda), I just brought home my brand new 2010 Ford Fusion.   :D

When I bought my GTI, I test drove a Ford Fusion SVT and was pleasantly surprised.  It's a very fun car for the money that handled well and was pretty quick.  I totally understand why you'd enjoy one.  Congrats on the new purchase!

I've been mulling over the Fusion to be included in my next car search.  I drove one as a rental and found I liked it.  Keep us updated on how you like it over time.

I love my Mustang!   :awesome_for_real:

Awesome.  So I have my car for 2 days, and out of all the 20 cars parked on the street some douchebag decides to smash (not just side-swipe, but literally smash) into my car.......

I fucking hate people

Oh man, that really sucks dude.

Anyone have personal experience with Volvos they would care to share?  I'm looking at getting an S80.

Had two volvos. My first at 17 a 1970s all-steel frame car of doom. Then I inherited my mom's 1984 DL. Nothing since then, sorry. Good cars, but about as glamorous as a nun's habit.

This.  Every single person I know with one (from the 1970's vintage to modern) has been nothing but absolutely satisfied.  A few models here and there had some issues on the higher miles with poor or no maintenance or the occasional design flaw (nothing *too* serious or recent, goofy stuff like a late 1970's OD model that didn't like to tow, etc), but beyond that they are a pretty reliable brand to get into.  Very little to get excited about other than feeling "safe."

Actually I think the latest round of Volvo designs are pretty cool, perhaps not awesome but certainly not the same old boring Volvo look. No idea what they're like to drive though aside from the fact you'll feel safe and turn into a terrible driver.

I used to date a fashion designer who flipped one (late 80s model) and walked away with a couple bruises. They're safe.

That woman used to go through cars. Loved her vodka.

Does this one share a platform with Ford?

It's based on the Ford EUCD platform but they apparently juice it up for the Volvo.

So 3 weeks later and I finally got my Fusion back and it's good as new.  Driven it about 400 miles in the week I've had it back and I love the Fusion.  Granted, I'm coming from a 1992 honda accord, but I love the way it handles and feels, and it's quite smooth.

Good to hear that your car is good as new now.  :)

Ford's really turned it around as of late.  Hell - everything but their trucks and the brand-new/untested Fiesta is even on Consumer Reports' 'recommended' list (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/types/new-a-to-z-index.htm), and they've been selling cars like crazy in both the US and Europe.

On top of that, the new Fiesta and Euro-Focus are coming here soon and they've even finally ditched the godawful engines that were in the 2010-earlier Mustangs - the new V6 is damn near as powerful as the outgoing V8.

Might be worth waiting until the Ford equivalent is available.

The Ford equivalent is the Mondeo which they don't sell in the US because it would compete with the Fusion. It's also not a luxury car like the S80.

I don't know if I'd purchase one due to the fact alone the brand is in the process of being spun off from Ford to Geely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geely_Automobile). I'd worry about the impact of dealerships/parts channel during this change of ownership period.

I've thought about that but am not too concerned. The platform is a Ford and the engine/transmission are actually made in Japan by Yamaha and Aisin Seiki  respectively. I can't see parts for any of those being tough to find.  My understanding is that the new ownership group is going to keep everything in place for a while regardless.

Wow, totally missed this topic. If the OP hasn't bought a car yet, my suggestion is a Jeep Cherokee (not a grand Cherokee)

You can get them fairly cheap, they are easy to work on, and have great 4WD.

Went and drove the S80 today. Liked it but the owner of the dealership had a big picture of Ronald Reagan on his office wall so now I'm having a dilemma.  :oh_i_see:

If you really like the car and it's a very good deal being offered, assume the picture's ironic and don't ask about it.

A well appointed T6 (executive, climate, technology and multimedia packages) on the floor and discounted is probably worth ignoring the Reagan portrait for.

I went ahead and bought it.  I'm a tolerant guy.

It's a fairy loaded V8 version.  I pick it up this afternoon.

It's nice to see people buying cars and not giant SUVs again.  Most people I know seem to be going in that direction again, thankfully.  Not around here, though.  Oh well.  Good luck with the new cars!  If I were there, I'd throw money in them to insure your safety!

Nice choice.  Did some reading on the turbo 6 vs the v8 and it seems the 8 is the way to go both in terms of smoothness as well as the 0-60.  Should come in handy with AWD in the mountain passes near you. 

My new baby:

Apparently later this year Ford will be releasing a whole framework for Android and BB app developers to add voice commands into their apps.  It will be released with support out of the box for Pandora and a few other apps  :drill:

Unfortunately, they only mention it will be a downloadable update for Fiesta, though I'm hoping that's just for advertising and it can be installed on any recently purchased sync car :(

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sync-applink-to-launch-on-2011-fiesta-making-ford-first-to-deliver-voice-control-of-smartphone-apps-91569534.html


P.s. Nice car Abagadro :D

I'm plenty happy with my Nuova Cinquecento, but if they ever release this (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/toyota-ft-ch-hybrid-concept/), I'm changing cars.

Just test drove a new GTI (w DSG).  Soooo nice.  :drill:

Don't get me started.  I have a 2004 and want a new one badly!

It drives an easy 10 grand higher than it's price tag.

Go test drive one, it don't cost nuttin.

If I do, I'll buy it.  That's the problem. 

It's 30 HP more than my 2004 and a slightly wider stance.  I've wanted one since the 2010 models hit the floor.  Damnit, I may need to call my insurance agent!

I can't wait until there's a performance version of this (http://www.alfagiulietta.com/). Even though I can't really afford that shit for many years.

I'm late to this thread but if you're looking for the best buy in an AWD vehicle you pretty much cant beat a used Audi Quattro if it's well maintained (popular car in Minnesota).  Focus on dealer leasebacks that make it to auction and pay cash.  Dont worry about the miles uless it's over 100k - typically those German engines will go 250k+ miles before any major maintenance.  Try to go manual transmission if possible.

I bought a like new '01 A6 2.7T for like $12,000 (in 2005 - strong market).  Right now, you could probably get the same car for nearly half that.  Brand new it was nearly a $60,000 car after taxes.
The rule of thumb for these luxury cars is never to buy new since the price break is much higher than any maintenance you'd do on the car, unless you're a sucker. Especially in this market.  And dont forget the cost of fully insuring them since they've got a lien. (assuming you take out a loan)  Buying used with cash saves a helluva lot there also.

If you have maintenance, use the secondary market and not the dealer.  Buy your parts online and take them to a local German import tech.

My first car when I was 16 was a Saab 900.  Similar to Volvo.  Bulletproof, solid, big 4-banger with a turbo.  Also used.  Paid $400 for it and never had any issues really.

I would not recommend this route for your midline domestic cars though.  The quality isnt there, especially after years of use.  Just buy new in that case and throw away after 5 years.

Buying a used car soon, need some suggestions for a good car that won't hurt me on insurance (coupes, Type R/S)

Ford Taurus?

There is no emoticon to describe me distaste. Preferably something from the last 5 years and with some semblance of nice design.

4 door Honda or Toyota.  Won't kill insurance and will likely be decently reliable.  Bland, but the less bland you get the more likely you are to get insurance and cost issues.

What about a Honda Civic Si ?  They are the 2 door platform with manual transmission and built for fun/performance.

It depends on the price range you're shopping in, but if you're just looking for something that's super-cheap on insurance, think about the kinds of cars that older people that don't have a shitton of money would drive - reliable, fairly boring, no sporting pretensions whatsoever and generally FWD 4-cyl 4-doors.

Low end:  Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic LX/EX 4-door, Mazda 3 sedan

Midrange:  Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, Hyundai Sonata, Chevy Malibu (though I'd avoid any pre-2008 Malibus on styling alone)

Near-luxury:  Lexus ES, any number of Acura sedans

You kinda forgot to say how much you want to spend.

$15k (CDN) is my max. Might as well take the hit on a new car beyond that point.

Audi A4/S4 (2000+), manual tranny, non-quattro.  Find one pre-tuned. (chip, blow-off valve, exhaust maybe, etc.)
Porsche C2 (993?) coupe (from the 90's), normal aspiration, port, polish + chip, manual tranny.  Find one with a good prior enthusiast owner.  180mph, low maintenance, plenty of parts and support.
Mercedes CLK 320 coupe. (any year)  Auto-tranny.

Again, find a lease buyback auction car or sale by owner.  Pay cash or find a good financier ahead of time, then lay down a deposit pending finance.
For 15k you can get a nice used, well maintained luxury coupe and forgo the rice-burners or ameritrash.  You just gotta put in the legwork to find them.  You might even be able to find something around 5 yrs. old, but it'll HAVE to have ran out its warranty usually.

I should have been more clear. I'm trying to avoid luxury, coupe, Type R/S or GT brands. I just want a point A to B that won't inflate my insurance or gas costs.

Ahhh!  AVOIDING luxury, coupe, r/s, etc.
Well tbh, luxury has little to do with insurance.  Matter of fact, if you count safety, usually they're cheaper.  Just set the replacement value to what you paid for it and try not to have a lien on the car.  If you're talking a sporty-type car, that's different obviously (hp and top speed will bork your insurance), but the same rules still apply.

I still recommend the A4/S4 then.  A6 even, like I said in prior posts.  15k gets you a lot.  Hell, you could probably find an A8 for that money right now.
The CLK 320 btw isnt that sporty of a car.  It's a large coupe.

For 15k why buy crap?  Get yourself something nice that you'll be happy with for at least 5 years.

Not true - desirable cars are stolen more, rates go up. If parts or service costs are higher, rates go up. If you want cheap insurance you want a low-desirability vehicle such as an economy car or a minivan. Estate/station wagons are good, SUVs are bad. Cars that are driven by people who focus on fuel economy and/or safety are cheaper to insure than those driven by people who want to show off or have fun.

This post reminded me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWnAdB-vkXo).

Hehe... yah, well I'd read his requirements wrong.  Funny though.


You're right, in a sense.  Really depends on the car.  Integras for instance are the worst to insure (assuming you insure theft), yet they're not even luxury.  Desirability sometimes has nothing to do with the fact it's a "luxury car."  Sometimes your zipcode is a more important factor (for theft as well as safety), along with a variety of other excuses for the ins. company to jack rates (like what happens to be the hawt ride at the time).  For instance, when quoting my ride - the main point was where I lived (bad drivers) and the fact it was 275hp.  Nothing else really factored into the equation, and it's a luxury car (but wasnt a commonly stolen car).

Best way to find out is to just get a shitload of quotes and make sure you input a security system.  Also a big difference on whether he's gonna max insure it or not.

Lastly, ask most people if they'd take a CLK or a Civic if perhaps the CLK costed a few hundred/year more in insurance and they were the same price to purchase.  Not worth it to save 10 bucks/month imo.... just axe an MMO sub. if it's that big of a deal.  15k is a lot of money to buy a lesser automobile to save a few pockets of change in insurance.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/marketplace/auto-insurance/insurance-premiums-main.aspx

That list is for the US and it's for 2010 cars but it'll give you an idea.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Insurance/InsureYourCar/which-cars-cost-more-or-less-to-insure.aspx