f13.net

I'm sleeping outside of EB right now waiting for Nintendo to release the new Mario side-scroller for the DS. (http://www.f13.net/index2.php?subaction=showfull&id=1105100353&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&)

I see where he's coming from with his answer.  Hardware like the PSP doesn't fit very well in any particular niche.  I'm more interested in what it can do besides games.  I'm curious if Sony is courting application developers as well as games.  My interest in buying one hinges as much on whether it can read video files from an iPod as what games are being developed for it.

I don't think the tale will be told on the PSP until some time after its release.  I admire what they're doing just as I admire the N-Gage.  The convergence of all these gadgets is an inevitable trend, and the first person to crack it is going to make a lot of money.

On the other hand, someone around here said, "The problem with being a pioneer is all the arrows in the back."

They're doing the exact same thing with the PSP that they did with the PS1/2. The PS1 came out when Nintendo's system couldn't play music CDs and relatively long before DVDs had caught on. The PS2 came out when Nintendo's system still couldn't play music cds or dvds and Microsoft wasn't really an "issue." Hell, MS didn't become an issue until this year really - starting with Ninja Gaiden.

Now Sony has made a system with a badass wide higher-res screen and the ability to play MP3s while Nintendo is still putzing around with proprietary cartridges and a second screen which will only be useful in maybe 10% of the games that come out on the DS.

While I may enjoy Tiger Woods for the DS, it ain't because of the stroking you have to do with the stylus and screen. I'll get into it more in my DS roundup, but it's all just so goddamn lackluster. Sony is going in for the kill and they know it. Just a pack of mechanical wolverines going after the 700lb elephant who has, just recently, gone into the third stage of syphilis.

On the 'Gamecube in the UK' issue, I can tell you that the typical package right now is £79.99 ($152) with 1 game. Cheapest GC I've previously seen is £49 ($93) for just the box and a controller. No doubt we'll see the deals drop by a tenner if Argos is selling at £39 ($76).

Argos selling a game console cheap isn't too big a deal though, Argos is a catalogue store, which means they could never really handle the box + 1 free game thing, because they only change their stock list once a quarter, so they won't have next month's latest greatest available. A store like GAME (uk arm of eb) will generally run console +any free game deals; a comparison shopper would note that buying a £39 box and any one game will cost you around £79.98 if you buy the box at Argos.

Also, the GC is at least as available as it was this time last year (which means about 50% of stores are out of stock, just as they are with X-Boxes and PS2s).

Truth though, is that time is almost up on all three current gen consoles. Prices are tumbling all round, because the vast majority of people who might ever buy one, already have one.

Other features aside, one just has to take a look at the games lineup and they'll see that Sony has already won. Before it's even started. Nintendo's been making bad decisions for some time now (I wonder if ex-Sega or Apple employees are working there), and it's about time they reap their full reward. Like schild said in another thread, they're much better off focusing on software at this point.

As for the convergence thing, Sony seems the most likely candidate on handhelds. I don't think anyone will be able to compete with Microsoft on the TV/Console/PC side of things.

So can you imagine a significant number of non-hobbyists buying both?

Nope?

Competition it is then.

OMFG NINTENDO RULES THEY ARE MAKING ANOTHER ZELDA!!

Seriously, who the fuck is buying all these Zeldas?

I stopped counting after my 4th Master Sword.

I'm one.  I have a lot of company.  Obviously, you're missing something.

Fucking convergence devices. Here's the trick to convergence devices. They are only good as a convergence device if they really and truly REPLACE the standalone devices. Unfortunately, due to costs, they most often just end up being average versions of the standalone device. If the PSP isn't as good a media player as the IPod, that isn't a real competitive market advantage. If sacrifices have to be made to the game player part of the equation to make it a multimedia device, you haven't gained anything.

Sony... you ARE competing against Nintendo as a game device, stupid. Be better at that, instead of trying to spread your legs across multiple market segments. Seriously, is anyone going to buy the PSP instead of an Ipod if they aren't looking for a game device? No, you'll buy an Ipod. It's the fucking games, stupid.

A sad truth I've come to accept is that most "gamers" today will accept any amount of bullshit Sony shoves at them.  After the PSX and PS2, though, I just don't have the drive to give them my money anymore, because they insist on making their systems some of the most problem-prone pieces of hardware I have ever had to deal with.

As for Nintendo and it's franchises: how long are you going to pimp Katamari, Pirates, KOTOR, Freedom Force, Splinter Cell, Vampire and so on before realizing you are supporting the idea of another game within the same series while simultaneously lambasting the exact same thing simply because it  is coming from a company that has built it's gaming empire around it?  There's a serious amount of self-hate you are harboring here if the most damning thing you can hold against Nintendo is the same thing you are understandably excited for among other consoles, that being the almighty "sequel".

I must admit, however, that I am biased.  I've yet to grow unexcited when thinking about each new Zelda or Mario.  I guess they remind me of happier and carefree times, something of which I'd rather not lose sight.

I got over that Zelda shit when I was nine.  Put away your faggy elf tights, grow the fuck up, and buy an Xbox.

The PSP and iPod are not competing devices.  This (http://www.tomshardware.com/mobile/200412161/) and the DS are the competition.

If the two [PSP and iPod] were integrated by the developers I think two things would happen:

[list=1]Jack Valenti would spontaneously combust.
The PSP would make inroads amongst a lot of non-gamers as a video player/webbrowser/whatever.[/list:o]
Perhaps Sony could live with that, but I doubt it.  I know Apple can't.

The point of all of this, is that with access to a storage medium which will interface with a generic PC the PSP could sell to a lot of people who would never buy a DS, as well as convince the fence sitters.

There's a difference between a SEQUEL, which is what you'd get in the case of everything you mentioned except KoToR and Splinter Cell - which would be a third in the series and NINE TO SEVENTEEN. Did you know there have been something like 17 different Zelda Games? No? Or how about Metroid. Yea, they're sitting at 9. Mario has over 50 with his fat ass in it. Capcom falls crime to the same shit; recycling 20 year old characters every year.

Nice try at spin though.

That would be fine and accurate except for the fact that I do know just how many Zelda, Metroid, and Mega Man games are out there, and I also know how a sizable portion of it is not much more than a graphical makeover with some new bits and pieces fit here and there.  It seems the difference is that I have no problem with Nintendo doing this, since they still pack some outstanding gameplay within almost every game of theirs, and every once and a while we get another "Aliens" in the sense that the next sequel/"serial" just totally blows away expectations created by the previous game.  I think it is safe to say, though, that both of us are pretty accepting of Capcom doing this, since you sound excited about Resident Evil 4 as much as I am.

I will agree that the Mega Man series has become increasingly excessive in it's sequelitis, but I am not about to fault them for that because I know that if I am in the mood for some newer Mega Man, it will always be there on the shelf.  Sort of like how Michael Moorcock keeps making Elric books, except I guess he's going to stop doing that soon...

EDIT: A good example of another "Aliens" would be Super Mario Bros 3, a sequel that added so much to the series, and platformers in general, that I am hard pressed to think of any reason why it shouldn't have happened.  
Same thing could be said about almost every Zelda game, but that statement stands on shakier ground.

I must admit, though, I am confused how anybody would not want more Metroid games, assuming they like Metroid gameplay in the first place.

Long as that Metroid is 2d keep em coming.!

Zelda hasn't added anything since The Adventures of Link or arguably A Link to the Past.

Mario's been downhill since 3.

I want more sidescrolling metroid. The gameboy stuff is far too easy.

I think in the end what will determine a respectable amount of the PSP's marketshare is how easy it is to get unsigned code to run on it.

Hello, MIPS based processors? Memory Stick support? USB support? WiFi Support?

The PSP screams for emulators, OS's, third-party media players, web browsing, and so on. If it can be done without opening the PSP up it'll sell like hotcakes.

I would say 99% of the people who own gaming systems and the like couldn't give a shit less about what you just said.

It's all about the games. Personally, I want Death Jr. right now.

Oh, and the widescreen won't be kind to emulators.

Zelda rules. People buy Zelda because Zelda games are fun. I'll just ignore any MMORPG ranting about faggy tights, thanks for trying though.

And before someone else comes along and starts blathering about unoriginality, look at both WindWaker and 4 Swords. There's creativity to spare there.

I agree it's all about the games, and the upcoming PSP games really do their best to entice me.  Unfortunately, I just cannot find myself willing to give it a go for at least the first two years, already having been burned twice with first and second-run Sony game hardware.  I'm going to assume that if they follow their usual pattern, all the hardware issues that crop up will be mostly ironed out during third/fourth year production of the units, assuming the PSP support lasts that long.

(http://pspmedia.ign.com/psp/image/article/534/534764/armored-core-formula-front-20040730014848436.jpg)

Armored Core, Portable?!

I'm sold.

Heh, the point was the side-by-side comparison, but yea, I want it too.

Metroid, Metroid 2, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, Metroid Fusion. Zero Mission, Metroid Prime 2...

OK, that's 7...

The other two are what, magic Metroid games?

And, let's see, Zelda 1 and 2 for the NES, Link to the Past for the SNES... OoT and Majora for N64, one for GC, one for GB, two for GBC, one for GBA... that would be 10, not 17. Oh, wait, four swords, sorry, 11.

Would you like to try again, this time with new and improved factual accuracy? Or just move on to criticizing DC and Marvel for still publishing Batman and Spider-Man comics?

As for the "Game over for GC..."

The system is profitable.

What more do you really want in a successful system?

My mistake, I could have sworn another Metroid was coming out for GBA and Metroid Prime: Hunters was already on release lists for later this year.

Criticizing Marvel for continuing to do what they're doing to Spider-Man would be far too easy.

Nintendo needs to stop selling an entire box every 5 years (or every 2 in the case of the gameboy) for the 5-8 games worth getting. They'd sell more on the PS2 and Xbox given market shares, and they could dump their home console research division. They're on the road to turning into Apple before the iMac. And I don't think Miyamoto and others have the balls Jobs had to give themselves up to the Microsoft overlords.

When did you become a troll?

Edit: Perhaps using Mario instead of Zelda would have been better. Then I wouldn't have gotten your purple cube-shaped panties in a twist.

Another Edit: Jesus Christ. (http://www.mobygames.com/search/quick/p,-1/showOnly,9/q,mario/)

What, like Sega?

Exactly like Sega.

Nice complete change of arguments.

5-8 games worth getting? I assume we're counting exclusives and not tri-platform games? So I should just count Resident Evil, RE0, RE4 (Exclusive for a year, good enough for me), Rogue Leader, Pikmin, the Sonic Mega Collection, Mario Kart, Monkey Ball (Exclusive for, what, two years?), Smash Brothers, Pac Man. Vs, Wario Ware, Eternal Darkness, F-Zero, Metroid Prime 1 and 2, Ikaruga, Wind Waker... I'll even leave off Mario Sunshine, Crystan Chronicles, and Metal Gear for ya... and that leaves me at... 17.

Hm.

Nope, still not convincing me.

Nintendo is pretty much the Apple of the console world. They've got their market share, and that market share isn't going to go away. They may not be competing for the Sony market share anymore, but that doesn't mean that they can't exist on this business strategy more or less indefinitely.

Well take off Sonic Mega collection since it's available on PS2 and X-box with extras that aren't on the GC version from my understanding.  RE0 also wouldn't make the cut IMO, as it felt like a tacked on addition to the series with only minor updates to the gameplay.  The fact that Monkey Ball used to be exclusive isn't going to impress anyone either.  I own a Gamecube so I'm not really biased against it, but the list does look pretty thin, especially since I really didn't like the Metroid games.

I'd just like to point out you like anime. You aren’t allowed to question anyone’s sexuality.

Please do go back to being wrong about every subject even vaguely related to media though, it's pretty funny.

Reading comprehension is new to you, isn't it? Where did I question anyone's sexuality?

My favorite Zelda game was the Legend of Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon for the CD-i.  Here are some shots from cut-scenes:

(http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/egm/06c.jpg)

(http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/egm/06b.jpg)

Monkey Ball spent two years exclusive, and thus two years as a reason to own the system. And while, plotwise, RE4 is kind of a tack-on, it's a great game that genuinely advances the formula. So I'll drop Sonic Mega for 16. But that's still just a list of must-have exclusives. 14 if you don't take to Metroid. But that's still 16 must-have exclusives if you own the console, plus some change "Pretty damn shiny" exclusives. Plus the must-have multiplatforms like Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia, and Viewtiful Joe.

Yes, Splinter Cell is a very different game without the multiplayer.

But for the vast swath of the console-owning population that doesn't do multiplayer yet, the Gamecube is at least as fine a choice as the XBox or PS2. And for those that do do multiplayer... at this point in the lifecycle I'd be surprised if there are many multiplaying console owners who don't have at least a second console.

I thought the PSP's competitor was the "maybe Microsoft-backed" Gizmondo (http://www.gizmondo.com/)? They are touting it as a multimedia portable that can play games.

Jesus I thought you died, Snow.

Smash Bros (N64)
Smash Bros Melee (GC)

They're counting similar "cameo" appearances for the Zelda and Mario games too.  Which, I guess to some extent is fair since having these characters is part of their selling point, but I dunno if I would call them a "Metroid" (or whatever) game.

Panties.

You sir, are a total idiot.

No, I just lay dreaming.

... of having sex with Mario.

The new Paper Mario for the Gamecube is one of the most fun games I've played in the last few years, and it pokes fun at the Mario series in a wide variety of ways. Self-aware humor about a character that is running on game two million, seven hundred and fifty thousand is always nice to see. Beyond that though, the gameplay is solid, the characters are interesting, and it never gets bogged down.

What I'm wondering is, why is this a bad thing?

Yeah, there are a lot of Zelda games.....so? 2 wasn't like 1, 3 wasn't like 2, the first gameboy one added some interesting elements to the stock gameplay of 3, the first N64 wasn't like the ones before, the next N64 one added a lot of new elements, the two other gameboy games added a bit to the stockgame of 3, and the GC one added a bit to the N64 gameplay.

As long as a series evolves and remains fun, why does it matter that they keep revisting the character and setting? Hell, they destroyed Hyrule in the last GC game. I'm glad they kept making games long enough for me to see that.

As for their staple, Mario......Mario Tennis is one of the best tennis games [yeah, not exactly a competitive field] made, the Kart games are good clean fun, Dr. Mario was a cool twist on the Tetris clone, Pinball was pretty fun when it came out, Mario RPG was one of the best games on the SNES, Mario Party games are amazing if you have friends, and about a billion other games large and small. It's not like they keep remaking the same platformer with the character, so what does it matter?

The random Nintendo hate I don't get.

I have to wonder why you moderate a nominally gaming related site schild when you so obvious hate games.

You're accusing me of hating games? That's cute.

I think it's a fair question:

Why do you hate fun?

Never said I did. But my idea of fun isn't buying a new system every 5 years for what will amount to be less than 20 games. I have a total of 12 games for the GC (2 of which I don't even like). By contrast I have about 40 ps2 games and about 25-30 xbox games. That doesn't warrant a seperate box near my home theater.

Why do you hate logic?

Let me see 10 games you like. Lets say you bought the system for 200 dollars. That adds an extra 20 dollars on to each game which brings the price of an average game up to what 70 dollars? Your xbox games on the other hand cost you about 60 and your ps2 games about 57.50. Is it really that big a fucking deal?

Or are you bitching about something even more asinine like the amount of space that 6" cube is taking up?

An expert troller is you. Listen up jackass, I don't feel Nintendo has a reason to force people to buy another system for 10, MAYBE 15, games through the course of an entire generation. I'm sorry common sense isn't your greatest trait, but please, spare me your juvenile economic rationalizations.

Yeah, that 200 dollars every 5 years is a real hassle.

That's the stupidest fucking reason not to like something I've ever heard. Aren't you some sort of movie buff? You go to see 12 movies a year you are paying as much as the price of a new system. The crippling price of a new system every half a decade is really breaking you for the tiny offering of a dozen games.

I ask again: Why do you hate fun?

$200 as an entry fee to "fun" is what I'm complaining about. Why do you find it to grasp that it's a good reason? In fact, it's the best reason to knock the Gamecube.



You can devalue the complaint however you want, but it's not $200 every half decade. It's $600-$800 because all new systems are released in a 6 month period. On top of that, I know when dealing with the fuckers at Nintendo that I'll get LESS FUN out of their system than the others.

I'll ask again, why do you hate logic?

Sorry I forgot you were an idoit. THEY MAKE MONEY ON THEIR CONSOLES YOU TOOL. They force people to buy them because they can. They sell them cheep enough that anyone who likes their games will buy one.

Idiot. Cheap.

Fucknut.

Here, I'll talk slowly so you can understand.

Both the XBox and the PS2 have a larger installed base of gamers. And we're not talking like 10-20 people more per hundred. We're talking millions more across the nation. Hardware takes a lot of money to research, develop, and produce. Cutting out that whole division and dropping them into portable development would be a huge move for them and they'd still sell all their games and many more copies on the other console systems.

I know, this is hard to grasp. I also know that you're incapable of original thought, so I'll sum up this entire post in one word.

Moron.

Wow way to go you douche bag. You do know that not a single thing you put a period after was a sentence.

You are such a fucking moron it hurts. I'm not sure what you didn't understand about my post. I'm going to break it down for you.

They make money on their hardware. Do you understand that? The gamecube made money for them. They have more money in their bank account now then they would have if they hadn't made it.

They wouldn't sell signficantly more games if they put them on the PS2 or XBox. No where near enough to make up for the lack of profits from selling their console and the amount of money they would have to pay microsoft and sony.

And I really am very sorry I'm not original enough for you. Of course seeing as how you are the biggest fucking tool on these boards I'm not going to lose much sleep over it. I mean fuck man. You have a quote from seinfield in your sig.

Stu, there's no need to go into the multitude of reasons that you're wrong. But your days of trolling are over.

Only now it's down to 100 dollars. And there are still a few more great titles to be released for it. Hell Paper Mario and RE4 just came out. RE4 being very, very little like any other RE.

That's the best reason to knock a Gamecube? Shit, that must make it the best system of all time.



Because you can't, being as he's right. Nintendo makes money off it's hardware. It makes money off it's games. Why would it stop doing this? To make more money? People that buy Nintendo games buy Nintendo systems. People that don't buy Nintendo systems refer to Nintendo games as "Fag elf" and "I stopped playing Mario in the '80s, lol, X-Box is a man's system!" and don't want to play Nintendo games anyway.

Why would they change their entire business strategy? It works for them. They aren't another Sega, they make quite a lot of money doing what they do. Shit, until very recently over the entire world the Gamecube was outselling the Xbox system. I can't say for sure if it's true today, but it was true for a very, very long time. Their Gameboy line has run without a series challenge for what, 15 years now? The PSP isn't going to change that either. Costs too much, and the l33t0 electronics crowd just isn't that big. The Gameboy sells to people who like to give their kid something to play with mostly, and people that like having a handheld. You can get a Gameboy DS and a few games for the expected price of the PSP. Fuck sort of parent is shelling out for the PSP?

It's not like the thing plays DVDs, you aren't throwing your movies on their to watch them. Transfer them from something else? Your pool of customers just got even lower. People tech savy enough to do all that are a vast minority in the consumer world.

So Nintendo has a profitable console department, and a very popular handheld department. It has rabidly popular first party games their base eats up, and it has no serious threat to it's position now [it's not like Sony can knock them down from number 1 twice]. They adapted. They found their market and they stick to it.

Why should they become a development only house when they make so much more money on hardware? They make about a billion in profit a year.  They made more last year than they did the year before. They sold more DS units than they expected to. They are not doing badly by any stretch of the imagination.

And your "logic" behind them dropping their console is....."they could make more money".

Prove it or shut the fuck up.

Yeah, they are going to collapse any day now.

Read this (http://cube.ign.com/articles/579/579600p1.html).

Do you honestly believe Echoes couldn't have sold 2 million copies the first month had it been PS2/Xbox instead of Gamecube?

That $200 I spent on the system when it was released, would have been $200 on games. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think they make more off the console than they do games.

Yep.

And here is that logic thing again, are you ready?



You just admit you payed for it and games.

So they should stop making the console so you just buy their games?

Like I said, I probably would have bought more games from them. Besides RE4 and Baten Kaitos, I waited for the price to drop on every other Gamecube game. I don't like supporting my redheaded stepchild.

And yet you still do. You talk about how you might have done it "more", but you still do it in the end. Nintendo hasn't shown a desire to lose it's identity in the search for a little more money. Nintendo makes fun video games and video game systems. Nintendo is not someone's bitch. Nintendo really, really doesn't like Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo makes money, Nintendo won't change.

Then where did you get the idea I don't like "fun?"



I've a strong feeling you'll eat those words sometime in the next three years. May be this summer, may be 2007. But you'll eat them.

The manner in which you do it and the way in which you talk about it.



People said the exact same thing when the PS and the PS2 launched.

Still waiting.

I remember the gaming rags saying that about the ps1 and ps2, but then, who trusts them anyway?

I switched straight over to the ps1 with the announcement of FFVII. It was a no brainer. I didn't need Another Mario.

You know, the way you talk and the manner in which you do it, people would assume you don't like living. I for one won't miss you.

I looked at their financial report for the first half of 2005 (they have a March 31 financial year) and their numbers do seem a little strange.  Their sales are down 11% from the same time last year, but their operating income is up 39%.  Some of that seems to be from the exchange rate, and they have also decreased their inventory by 30%, which could also have had an effect.

Right now their hardware sales are 4:1 handheld to console, with software running 2:1 handheld to console.

They don't break out their R&D costs in their statement of cash flows, so I can't tell you what their up to, but their 2004 report made no mention of anything other than the GC and DS.

Given how much Nintendo is dependent on their handheld, the PSP is a very serious threat.  Their choices are: come out with a new console in order to lessen their dependence on handheld revenue, come out with a pile of new games for the DS to keep the PSP from stealing customers, or  call it quits and get out of the hardware biz.

The do need to do something, and do it soon.  Pricing at a premium hasn't hurt the iPod that much, and I wouldn't hold out much hope that it will stop the PSP.  Sure the DS will have the price advantage, but given Nintendo's dependence on the handheld revenue, I'm not sure they can afford give up much market share to Sony.  Unless they hope Pokemon takes off again.

It isn't true today. From this page (http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8498&page=2):



It currently trails X-Box worldwide by over a million units. Regional breakdowns are:



The only place it outsells the X-Box is in Japan, which considering the nationalistic ferver, hatred for American companies, and overall Japan-centric focus of most of Nintendo's software development, that's understandable. I assume they make more money off a unit sold in Japan as well.

I'm sure the GC and whatever next-gen console Nintendo comes along with in 2006 will sit in about the same position indefinitely. But I would tend to agree with schild, in that I don't think it's a good use of their resources. But this is from the company who doesn't believe online gaming is worth bothering about, so being happy with third place probably shouldn't be surprising either.

I said to him, "Say man, who got the key?"
He looked at me and says "key? What key?"
He said "Gus got the key"
I say "Gus....Gus who?"
He say "Don't you know? Gus Johnson (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:wjfpxql5ld6e~T1) got the key."

I bought a psx quite some time before I bought a 64, so obviously I too was excited about FFVII, but at the time that "Another Mario" was going to be Mario 64, and I find it hard to believe, from the gamer perspective, that anybody was of the idea that they didn't need that game.

I hate Mario in just about all its forms, so you can count 1 gamer who did not need Mario 64. I do like Mario Kart, but only because my wife loves it and we can play together.

Not saying that nobody was uninterested with the game, just saying I find it particularly hard to believe.  Subjectivity and all that.