f13.net

No big reason other than I just aint going to piss anymore of my life away trying to see what the next tier of armor looks like on my avatar.

Ding. Gratz!

heh. I know what you mean. I cancelled the day my free month was going to end. I really tried to like it to and give eq2 a shot.

I hated the AFK merchanting you had to do to sell anything, the player housing situation, the fact that everyone looked the same and within classes had the same general abilities...oh and the entire game past level 20.

I wouldn't suggest doing the obvious thing and switching to WoW then. But on another note, during beta for EQ2, I posted in their forums that their mid and high game MUST be as polished as the low-level game to really keep retention. I got scolded. I'm not surprised to see people cancelling at 20.

EQ2 is very demanding on time - and grouping - and I don't have a problem with that - although RL demands mean that I cannot make those time commitments.

I think the combat wheel added to the game.
They did a great job improving scouts and tanks and reducing absolute dependence on a a singular healing class.
They also did a decent job in making tradeskilling a lot more enjoyable than in EQ (/duck).

But there is just no heart - no art - EQ avatars look better stylistically.  Character creation - no comment.  The zones are quite unmemorable.

The physics of the movement of the avatars is just bad - great in combat - awful outside of combat (once you play COH you just can never ignore this).  When avatars jump in EQ2 it looks like their arms become dislocated, literally, at the shoulder.

Ironically again - there is arguably more class differentiation in EQ than in EQ2.

The utter absence of any solability in the game is ironic.  People from EQ that exceled as druids, Necros and Wizards that soloed a lot have trouble with EQ2.  I guess all this means there is still a niche for EQ players even if their systems can run EQ2.

There was too much instancing.  You could work out a formula - but when you have 2-5 instances of popular zones you spend more time talking about what instance your in rather than where you are on a map.  Atmosphere killer.

For a social game the utter absence of a bazaar - is a disappointment.  They just eliminated another node of social confluence in the game.

My friends and I quite because of RL demands.  They improved a lot in the game though - it is just ironic that - imo - their shortcomings you thought would have been the things they did best at.

I managed to get over my hatred of the character models, and played the early levels a bit. I admit, it was done well, but I knew it was going to become exactly like what Murgos said. So I figured I'd quit while I was ahead.

Who knows? Maybe in another year or so, EQ2 will actually be good.

Let me take the opposite take on this:

Who knows?  Maybe in another year or so, EQ will be good.

If they could borrow the combat wheel, combat kinetics, Fighter & scout improvements and tradeskill system to EQ - I would go back.  Back to EQ (with its great class variety, avatar looks, zone atmosphere).

For me the the path to a better game may be involve less work improving EQ than EQ2.

Go figure.

Yeah, I just don't get that. I didn't even notice the XP bar until I hit about level 17. Lots of quests to do, things to keep you occupied. Then there comes a time around 17-19, when you realize to do anything you are pretty much forced to group and the fun little stuff dries up.

The grouping was a killer for me especially with the shared XP debt. I was at level 20 and had a big hit of XP debt and it hit me that I was not going to play grind for hours just to get back to where I was before.

Then there's a quote on the forums from an SoE rep today..."Group mobs were never intended to be solo"...now group mobs are off limits to solo players. For solo'ers it either killing yard trash or being obliterated by something else. No quests either after you hit a high enough level.

If you make a post about the lack of solo play you get:

"wait until the next big patch"

or some bullshit about forced grouping building the COMMUNITEH!

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the majority of MMO players solo'ers and "weak" groupers (people who form pick-up groups)

I think I can tolerate a lot of stuff, but when character advancement is the chief objective in playing a game, I quit. Or better yet, don't play at all. It's bad enough that I spend of lot of free time playing video games, but even worse if I spend it on playing something that isn't even a game at all.
 
I suppose there's one that I'm attracted to that falls under this category though: CoH. The gimmick keeps me interested, but not by much.

The little I played of EQ2 wasn't anything comparable to single player games or anything, but I'll give it some credit. They tried, if only a little, and it turned out to be somewhat immersive. I knew it was going to shift to just another character-centric game though. But unlike EQ1, there's still hope. Like I said, give it a year or so and who knows? Maybe they'll flesh out the rest.

I think a large reason a lot of people burn out right around 20 is due to the sub-classing system. Let's have a look, shall we?

Level 10 - Something to look forward to. Oh neat! New class.

Level 20 - Something to look forward to. Little bit grindy near it, but oh neat! New class.

Level 30 - Umm...

Level 40 - Umm...


The new sub-classes provide a different enough experience to carry a player that little bit further toward the next sub-class. But once you've gotten both sub-classes and had the opportunity to tinker with them, what else is there? Nothing. Unless you enjoy the EQ1 paradigm of "new" spells that are merely enhanced, renamed versions of previous spells or the ever-popular EQ1 paradigm of hunting for phat lewt. Whoa, hold me back! Heh.

Honestly, I believe the post-20 burnout is due solely to the fact that it's the "same old" game after level 20. But I will say that the elder game is not polished since word has it that Lavastorm? cannot be unlocked by level 50 players because SOE hasn't completed the content so the unlock quest for that zone is not in the game yet. How. Very. Appropriate. For an EQ title.

Complaints about exp debt are misplaced - but complaints about sharing it are not. You can log out and have it expire in 3 days(?). Yes, it sucks if you want to grind for a long period at one sitting, but it is hellabetter than losing your level.

I just dinged 19. I am a casual player that gets a lot of help from good guild. I often group with the #3 alts of others. I have enjoyed the game quite a bit so far, BUT I ventured into Thundering Steppes for the first time last night. I was excited to see a new zone. Umm, big fucking yawn. It takes FOREVER to run anywhere and it is one big green field with walls. Why aren't there griffon stations like Antonica? I remember fearkiting lions in EK with my ranger in EQ1 and it SUCKED. Thundering Steppes brought back that unpleasant memory in spades. And holy fucking shit, how can SOE be so goddamn uncreative to have griffon and lions AGAIN?!! Do they think fighting zoo animals is cool? Level 23 antelope and hawks? Are you fucking kidding me?

I am not going to quit, but I am going to stay in Antonica/SH/BB as long as I can.

Following Soukyan's comment - that is a major appeal of CoH.  Depending upon the kind of build you have in mind - you might be level 35 before the basic concept of your character is complete.  And you are constantly evaluating along the way.

Superficially EQ2 has this until about 20 - you're right.

Oh Shiznitz - on your point - I had howled when my level 23 druid friend in Cougar form was killed by an Antelope of the same level lol.

Except that for the first 20 levels, you get 1 set of 'upgrade' spells... and while being the same 'type' of spell, it will either have a different damage type, a different buff effect, or different side effects, than the original spell, because the new spell is based on your class, rather than your archetype.  The same thing happens thru the 20's and early 30's, when you get subclass-modified 'upgrade' spells.  Yes, in many cases, they are obviously direct upgrades, but they are modified to better fit the subclass you chose.  Thye last set up upgrade spells is the only one that is basically exactly the same as the previous set, because you have changed class/subclass in the middle.

Which means there are 4 'tiers' of spells.  The initial set, and 3 replacements.  Which makes me laugh when WoW proponents(not neccesarily you, Soukyan) make this argument, while at the same time going to purchase Fire Bolt 8 for their 50 mage, or Slice and Dice 8 for their 50 rogue.  Apparently Blizzard stole the spell/skill naming system from Horizons.



While I've read accounts of people who've, you know, actually played to 50, who say the playstyle of the class varies quite a bit, depending on what spells you have access to and what-have-you, until the high 40's.  The Plane of Fear access quest is in the same state as Lavastorm, apparently, so the last couple levels are a pain without useful zones to hunt in.  Not that it matters to me, my highest character is still only 22.  Again, to make the obvious comparison to the competitor, once you have the first copies of all your attacks/spells... that's it.  New spells are just N+1 from there on out.  Whereas aside from your 5-6 'main' spells, that upgrade each tier in EQ2, there are lots of side spells that have different effects from the main line, and lots of totally new spells and effects as you level.

Complaints about the animation, or the lack of differentiation between characters of the same class/archetype, or some of the models(who the heck designed that deer?) are all reasonable, really.  Complaints about soloability, too, tho they're adding a bunch more solo quests Real Soon Now, in the major update which plans to implement a bunch more stuff they didn't get to before release.  But complaints about spell upgrades are total BS, especially coming from epople who love WoW.  The only game that didn't do N+1 style spells was UO, as far as I know... And EQ2 has a lot less of it than previous games, including its current competition and its predecessor.

Alkiera

I agree that the spells/combat arts are well done and doled out ina compelling order. But, since there is always a dark cloud, the goddamn Adept 1 upgrades are way way way way way too rare.

I played the lower level game of EQ2 and I'm still trying to see how it was such a fun, immersive experience. I was never immersed in EQ2, at all. Maybe I was never going to be, but the game was just bland, boring and the least immersive thing I've played since Pong. Fuck, I was more "immersed" in Pong. By level 6, as a warrior, I felt like everything I'd ever see was just a boosted up version of what I'd already seen. I couldn't wait to get off the Isle of N00b Refugees, because it obviously seemed like a really long tutorial. It felt like kindergarden.

I'm surprised anyone played it past level 10.

And this is why the people who like it, like it.

I hugely dislike the "Firebolt 5" paradigm as well. And, no, I'm not a WoW proponent either so thank you not assuming that. :) I do like Warcraft lore, but aspects of the game leave something to be desired. I take no MMOG sides. Except Puzzle Pirates. Arr! But only because I can be a pirate and nobody dislikes being a pirate. But I digress...

Even with "tiers" of spells, you still end up with essentially the same spells being tweaked up or down. Mix in effects and you can trick people into feeling that the spells are "new" for longer (DAoC did this well with the spell distribution). Either that or players remain complacent longer because it at least feels new for longer. EQ2 is not a bad game; it simply falls into bad MMOG habits after a short while. I would suggest stretching out the sub-classing, but then it would feel very "grindy" in-between changes. CoH works well for a longer amount of levels because it's a skill/archetype hybrid that keeps the player choosing and actually does give new skills that function differently than previous ones. EQ2 cannot do this because they are still using a straight class-based system which removes the aspect of player customization once they've chosen their class.

This hits the nail on the head.

That combat wheel was just so incredibly intrusive and "gamey" that I laughed any time I saw it.  Keep that shit on the gameboy games please.  

. . . you're fighting a group of orcs, you turn a corner and OMG PUNCH THE MONKEY NOW see that they have a sorceror OMG PUNCH THE MONKEY NOW . . .

Win a free iPod for me!

I'm a warrior, and if I hit kick, taunt, and do the hokey pokey the results = LIGHTNING BOLT!  LIGHTNING BOLT!

Worst dev team evar.

No more lightning bolt. Now you get a green shimmer instead.

Must be from the goulash.

I beta tested both EQ2 and WoW and was grateful as it saved me $100 clams.  It's a shame that two companies can spend so much money to produce two games with so little to offer to those of us that have "been-there-and-done-that".  Of course, it's all a matter of what's fun for each of us.  .  

I think I'll use the cash to buy myself a pat on the back.

Not so fast:  if WoW has attracted a lot of new users to the genre, I think that has a lot of merit.  EQ2 I suspect is going the opposite direction.

I don't have any source statistics though to verify this... it's just an impression at this point.

Yes I think about 90% of us would agree that WoW is doing a much better job than EQ2 at luring new gamers to the genre.

I cancelled EQ2 when they revealed that regular $15/month paying customers would be stuck with 4 character slots, while "Station Pass" members paying $22/month would get 8 slots.  As an alt-a-holic who must keep several characters in my wife's level range, this was not financially acceptable.

I find it funny that *all* of these games feature only one pricing plan:  unlimited.  And all of them are heading toward the new $15/month standard.  Sure, I see why the newest games are upping the ante.  But I fail to see why the second tier of MMO games are not experimenting with other pricing options.  Somebody needs to market themselves as the "budget" MMO, for those who just want an affordable gaming fix.  Guild Wars is aiming in that direction with the no-monthly-fee pricing, but it's arguable whether they count as an "MMO," or some other category.

Anyway, why doesn't some marketing team say, "There are newer games out there, but we'll give you lots of fun at a cheap price."

Poor EQ2.  I haven't even opened the box that it was shipped in.   I was hoping that my nephew would want it, but he's not interested, either.  Oh well.

There are rumours that Wish will charge a bit over the new standard of $15 per month so they can pay their live content team.  

Hah!

People have demonstrated that they are willing to pay more than the current monthly fee.  Therefore, even in the presence of competition, the monthly fee will go up steadily.  The only reason, AFAIK, that we aren't all still paying hourly, is that Garriott undercut everyone with the $9.95 / month fee, EQ followed, and the standard was set.

PS: I formally apologize for the number of commas in that last sentence.

EQ2 is on sale at EBGames for $34.99. Too late to sell it back and get any decent money.

EQ2 definitely has a lot of players with EQ1 experience. I haven't met a true noob yet.

(http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20030707l.jpg)

Odd.  I've met quite a few... in fact, I know people IRL who are playing EQ2 who didn't play EQ1.

Alkiera

I meant MMOG newbs.

I really tried to give EQ2 its due. It burned me flat pretty quick, though.

As far as I can tell, there's nothing it does which WoW hasn't done more fun and with less stupid gameplay elements.

And yes, this includes the graphics engine - less fun. The novelty of pseudophotorealism wears thin easy, especially on decidedly non-leet computers such as mine. It gets like playing a powerpoint presentation sometimes.

Just to reinforce what has been said here, EQ2 blows after 20. I stuck it out until lvl 27 or so before quitting. Before you hit 20, you have plenty of quests to do, and new places to run through, so it stays engaging. When you hit 20, you get your final class, the "AQ's" (armor quests), and some cool abilities. Beyond that, the gameplay, at least for me, replicated the grind of EQ almost perfectly - my groups basically always ended up "camping" somewhere. Actually, the grind was arguably worse for me, because the so-called best tank classes, Beserker and Guardian, could never hold agro from my "inferior" Brigand (oddly enough Sk's could do this perfectly).

Damn you Sony, for wasting time I could have spent playing my WoW warrior up to at least lvl 40 before quitting That game.

I'm still not sure why anyone would continue to play the shitfest called Everquest (the original), regardless of EQ2.

My post-20 experience has been different.  I've not even hit 25 yet and I've:

- got a ton of quests in Nektulos forest of varying difficulty
- have access quest for Cauldron Hollows still to complete
- have access quest for Nektropos Castle still to complete
- still haven't finished AQs. though not really "gotta have" since I have been able to buy appropriate pristine player made armor
- can still solo enjoyably as an assassin
- have no problem playing in groups since I have so many attacks to choose from I can almost always avoid aggro, and as the high dps in a group, I usually reserve my highest dmg attacks after aggro is well established
- have been doing writ quests for the guild I joined
- still have yet to get into some of the deeper levels of Fallen Gate
- worked my character up to 21 weaponsmith fairly easily (being in a guild helps)

Not saying things can't go the way you described, but I have yet to be in a group that just sits and camps one spot -- the closest I came was one night when a guild member needed help and we roamed around one area in Nek forest for an hour killing a specific creature. But it never felt like camping.

What EQ2 does lack, though, is a sense of goofy fun. A coworker in WoW told me that his horde character actually feasts on the corpses of things he kills -- does sound amusing.

In the end, I find EQ > EQ2 because:

character creation has more noticable choices (no eye patch? scar? blind eye?)
class roles are more noticable (tank dps heal damage.. oh my)
the goddman zones are memorable (everfrost, unrest, butcherblock)
oh ya... the same breastplate actually looks different on different races.

I have to be in the minority for SOEs sake.  The only thing EQ2 really brought forward was a combat wheel no one used.... and combat animations - the latter of which were quite good.

I thought the commonlands were a pretty good zone in EQ2.  For a newbie transition zone is was excellent.  Plus I think the whole 'savana' feel of it was a real nice touch.  Much better done than other savana style zones I've seen.

Nektulous on the other hand was pathetic, as was the newb zone outside qeynos.

I guess you didn't play a rogue or predator then. I used it nonstop - an extra 140 free damage is always nice.

The guild I play with uses teamspeak and we often use the Heroic Opportunites -- not always successfully -- but it adds to the feeling of 'teamwork'.

Did a guild group of 6 into an instanced dungeon called Nektropos Castle last night.  This has a timer for re-entry, which is about 2 hours. We made it pretty far into the dungeon, which included a one-way a passage through a secret door (nicely implemented) and a 'storyline' of sorts that requires helping a ghost by reclaiming artifacts (medallions) from the dead daughters of the castle's previous lord. [Guild War's still does a better job of instanced storylines, IMHO]. Again no camping required. And as far as Xp/advancement, I went in only 5% into level 25 and came out 40% into the level (this in just 2 hours of play, including about 6% debt from the party's death).

We managed to survive quite a ways into the place before we were finally defeated by one of the higher level 'dead daughters'. When we respawned, not only did we *not* have to go inside to get our shards (they were obtainable right at the door), but our timers showed we only had to wait 10 minutes to go back in.  None of us realized the re-entry zone timer started from the moment we entered...so if we'd lasted another 10 minutes in the zone, we could have all easily re-entered right away. (We chose not to for other reasons.)

I still strongly dislike the idea of zone re-entry timers, but in this case it was a little less annoying than had been expected.

The whole thing was the most dungeon-crawl-like I've had in an MMORPG,   with most of us on 'full alert' throughout since the threat of death was around every corner. It was enjoyable, though I expect that had a lot to do with it being 'new' to me. I am not so certain it will be as enjoyable the 4th or 5th time through...

Still, it was clear the designer had given a lot of thought to the small map layout details, the quests and the visual details. Halls and rooms that were twisted and misshapen, cramped corridors, winding staircases, a rampart that led outdoors and then back into the castle, and a story that uncovered elements about the castle's background as you quest through it. Not too bad at all.