f13.net

Hey gang,

Another advise thread. I am looking to set up a fool proof backup for a friends small business computer that he has at home. Basically he doesnt need a lot of space, but he wants it to be really foolproof. He is going to be running a small business on this machine, so I need something really solid.

What I am thinking of doing is having him get a small external raid unit, and then some software to do automated backup, so he wont even need to worry.

I was thinking of something like this:

Raidon 2 drive raid unit. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816142002)

Where I am overwhelmed is on what software to use. Do any of you guys run backup software or have experience with backup software, or could give me a good place to start researching it? Trying to google it is just overload with tons of places trying to sell backup solutions, but not much hard info on it.

Any tips or advice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMail_Drive  :why_so_serious:

Provided he has broadband, mozy.com If it's not a server grade OS, it's $5/month for unlimited storage. Their server options aren't that expensive either.

:awesome_for_real:

I hear Hitachi and Microsoft have a backup solution for sale.

I use cwrsync (Cigwin Rsync) for several of our machines.

You can either do it locally or use ssh to another machine.  The script is a bit annoying to get right the first time, though I can give you a working copy of one if you want to go that route.  Then you just have Window's task scheduler run the batch file.

It's probably not the most elegant solution, but it's free and relatively fast after the first backup.

Does he need to backup any databases or is it just regular files? If the latter honestly you can get by fine just using the built-in Windows backup stuff.

There is no such thing as a bulletproof backup system, so best to disabuse him of any notions of that now.

Sorry, a few things that I forgot to mention.

- He is 100% against any sort of online backup. I tried to sell him on Mozy or Carbonite, but he is terrified of having his info in the cloud. Mozy was my first choice.

- Doesnt need to be free. He is willing to pay decently for it.

- I want something simple. I was considering just throwing in another drive in his Box and raiding it, but I really wanted hot swapible easily. I understand there is no such thing as 100% bulletproof and such, but I just want something mostly fool proof that he doesnt need to futz with. Hence why I was going with an external raid, and some sort of automated software. So I can go over there, plug it in, set up the software, and just let it run.

No databases. Basically its going to be a bunch of word, excel and some schmatic files. Hence why I thought Mozy would be perfect.

Then a USB disk and cw_rsync.  It's about as simple as you can get.  This is the batch file I have running every couple of days from the task scheduler which copies the full C:\ drive to the user folder under Backup on the removable disk F:\.


It's rsynch, so if a file hasn't changed it doesn't copy it.  Further, it's just a direct copy, so you can read it right from the disk if needed.  You can do subfolders instead of the entire drive if you want.

My problem with the Windows backup is that if it times out on a file due to network issues, a large file, or whatever, it just ends.

Why bother with Cygwin when you can just use SyncToy? It's from Microsoft (it's free) and it works great, it's also got a nice GUI to boot.

So yes, use SyncToy (http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/details.aspx?familyid=C26EFA36-98E0-4EE9-A7C5-98D0592D8C52&displaylang=en) if it's local, or Carbonite/Mozy if it's not. I use Carbonite myself (as well as SyncToy to replicate to an external disk), but if I was doing it over again I'd probably use BackBlaze (http://www.backblaze.com).  They're doing some innovative stuff which leads me to believe they're a good company to keep your data with.

If revision history is important, you could also try setting up a Subversion server, and running automatic commits on a schedule.

http://aaronsaray.com/blog/2008/09/12/automatic-backup-with-svn-on-windows/

You'd have to add your own code to perform delete's on removed files.  Not entirely sure how difficult that would be setup in an efficient manner.

Windows Home Server (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Home_Server)

Something like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16859105420). (pop in a secondary hard drive and turn on folder replication). It preforms system backups automatically and complete bare metal recovery of desktops. It will also monitor your desktops and warn as needed. You can plug in an external USB disk and then preform a server backup from its gui and take it for offsite storage.

Bonus? you can access the drive remotely via built in dyndns/webserver that talks upnp and snaps on to a live account, it also functions as an RDP proxy and has some good addons.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I wish he would let me use something like that Backblaze, but he absolutely refuses to use online backup. He thinks "they" might get his files.

SyncToy looks more like what I need, but I dont really want to do a full copy of his entire OS every night. Just standard backups of changed files. Something kind of like OS X Time Machine.

I dont think he is going to want to change his OS.

I cant believe there is no software he can buy that just works sort of like Time Machine.

Might want to see what's on Lifehacker: http://lifehacker.com/search/windows%20backup/

He's running windows right? I only included the link so you can read the features it provides. The HP EX485 media server is a small computer inside that 4 bay chassis that you can add disks as needed. Windows home server is pre installed on that small server.

That's a total solution that works almost identical to time machine. Heck the HP software provides a time machine container to mac's.

www.genietimeline.com

That was actually the first place I went this morning. I was just posting here to get some "real" peoples experiences and suggestions.

That looks promising. Anyone used this?

I had used it only once, and because the time feature was something specifically asked for. It's also a product that is mentioned along with the Apple Time Machine often, which was where I'd heard of it.

That was when I was doing PC house calls, and it was a home based business where I located that as a solution they could buy. Seemed easy enough to configure, and I don't think there was ever any problem with it (at least before I left that company).

He's doing off-site backups too, right? Otherwise the fire/flood/tornado/break-in that wipes out his main computer takes out the back-ups too. Off-site doesn't have to be "in the cloud"; consider encrypted data being copied to a friend/relative's system in another town.

Use 2 different mechanisms to back up the data. RAID isn't worth it, IMO--too many ways to lose everything, and if your disks are big enough, it's statistically very likely that a RAID 5/6 system will be unable to reconstruct a single lost disk, so you lose everything with most craptacular controllers. Instead, consider mechanisms like a separate hard drive (rsync, etc) + DVD/CDROM + USB key. Everything encrypted, if possible; those super-paranoid about forgetting a password can keep a paper copy of passwords in a bank safe deposit box. (assuming that the threat model is protecting against accidents and disaster instead of hostile government agencies).

Yeah, I'm a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to backing up my data; I only do sporadic DVD + USB key backups, with occasional encrypted binary blobs in email/remote file storage. I do use a RCS for all my text documents and coding, though.

We've actually had a customer terminate his online backup services with us just because we couldn't recover some files he had forgot the password for. He was absolutely convinced we were just jerking him around and that we could just copy the files from the server anytime, because "everybody knows all that encryption is just sales talk." :uhrr:

Well, my real experience with Windows backups is just a Colorado IDE 8mm tape drive.  That is solid, old-school shit.  The process is a TAD slow compared to modern synchronizing mechanisms, but it works.  Also sounds like your friend might like the "security" of putting the tapes under his pillow at night.

SyncToy backs up folders, you don't have use it for the whole OS. I use it to backup a couple folders, notably the ones with my pictures.

I would try it out, and then if that doesn't work definitely rsync to a home-built raid on your newly bought Windows server. Or you could just use SyncToy.

Hasn't Windows had built in basic back-up and retrieval software for like, 5 years now?  I'm also pretty sure it lets you select where you want to store your back-ups and is entirely automated.

For what your paranoid, delusional friend wants that seems like more than enough.

Windows does have workable backup software, I used it to make backups to regular files.  In my opinion, this is all anyone needs until you get to the "offsite data" part of a disaster recovery plan or until the backups begin to interfere with normal processing.

It's okay, but I've had it crap out on big files.  It's one of the reasons I moved to the rsynch solution.

It is pretty unlikely this guy has any files big enough to cause that sort of problem.

This thread has inspired me to look into Backblaze and Mozy, mostly because I've got about 25 years of digitized and digital photos and videos I'd not want to lose to the house burning down. $5/mo for unlimited storage seems like a good insurance policy, considering I've got most of this on a server anyway.

Anyone have any experience with either or can recommend a better one?

I, too, have subscribed to this newsletter and am going to investigate this Mozy and Backblaze of which you speak.  I'm still sad about those Morrowind save files.

You can also get a dropbox, although I believe its much more expensive. I think 150$/year for 200gb? But then you also get all the functions of Dropbox.

What about the Vista backup utility?  Seems to work pretty well for me.

Also, if you aren't doing an "onsite" and an "offsite" backup it can be a bit risky.  If you have a fire or flood it could hit both main and backup and you're screwed.  Of course, I have patient charts to backup so I can't be screwed or I'm really, really screwed.

Oh, sure, but I don't need a huge Dropbox (got a 4GB one now) since it would just be for in case one of my disks has a blowout.  Not for live data with "realtime" sync.  Plus I sort of expect to be told that my services in the Beverage Industry are no longer required in six days.

Right, that's Disaster Recovery and probably not what this guy wants.  That can get pricey.  I still say 8mm tape.

I bet you could do a fairly robust, if costly, back-up onto vinyl.  The reader would be super easy to make, the presser might take a bit of thought to do cheaply/quickly.  Maybe convert some kind of brail printer?

Does Dropbox sync to online servers? Their site says other computers in the home. I'd prefer to have something offsite because I'm not going to be able to have a consistent policy of backing up to tape and driving it to a safety deposit box :-)

Your files are both on the computers you have Dropbox running on and offsite via Amazon S3 (and web accessible via their site).  You can also set up symbolic links (http://lifehacker.com/5154698/sync-files-and-folders-outside-your-my-dropbox-folder) to get things sync'd outside of the Dropbox folder.

It's pretty awesome.

I wouldn't use DropBox for real backups though, that is what Mozy/Carbonite/BackBlaze are for.

I found Carbonite to be incredibly clunky compared to Dropbox.  Maybe Dropbox just spoiled me with its interface and web site.

Are Mozy or BackBlaze any better in that regard?  (I probably still have a Carbonite trial since I complained about it when I uninstalled so if it's actually not-clunky I could give it another shot.)

Well I actually did Carbonite without checking any of the others out, after reading BackBlaze's blog I would of gone with them if I knew about them at the time..

Dropbox and Carbonite serve two different purposes, Dropbox is for syncing files among different computers or having files accessible wherever you go, and it's also neat that you can share your files publicly.  Carbonite on the other hand is a dump for your files, you specify which ones go in and they upload and stay there.  If you ever need to restore them you pick the files and it downloads them for you and puts them back in the right place.  I also don't remember Dropbox having any sort of built in backup facility, with Carbonite you right click on this folder and say "Back this up".

I imagine Mozy and BackBlaze are the same, they're all for backing up and keeping the files as opposed to sharing or syncing the files.

So, these are the 3 I am considering getting for my guy.

Genie Timeline Backup
http://www.genie-soft.com/

Acronis True Image Home 2010
http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage/

Norton Ghost

I know I know, Norton. But its gotten some decent reviews.

Ghost isn't really what you want. Its for doing images, as in create a giant image of *everything*, unless they've added some Backup Exec lite type features to it since last I used it. Its going to be overkill and probably very clunky for a backup that really just wants to capture data.

I don't have any direct experience with the other two.

Necro'ing for a followup question.

I use SyncToy to backup across my home network. Works perfectly. What I'd really like to have though is a SyncToy that would let me sync with my webserver. All I really need to backup is save game files. Right now I sync all of them to desktop folder, ZIP each by game, and copy it to my web space. It's not time consuming really, so this is more me being curious. I've looked at some of the others mentioned here, but I don't feel like I need to pay for the web space when I'm already paying for one.

I tried mapping my web space to a drive letter, but XP won't let me do that. And I can't get SyncToy to recognize my webspace as a valid folder with which to sync.

Windows task scheduler+curl?

Edit: actually you probably don't need curl. 

Huh, never heard of cURL. Looks pretty interesting. May try that. Thanks.

Overkill, you don't need it for what you want:

Task Scehduler (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/308569)
command line ftp in windows (http://www.petefreitag.com/item/77.cfm)

or instead of using batch files you could load php on your windows box and run php scripts: php.exe -f upload_my_stuff.php

edit: curl does come in handy if you want to grab web pages, upload through a proxy, or do anything tricky that involves automating web things.  So by all means feel free to get your feet wet with that.

edit2: and oh yeah curl supports sftp so you may want to use it after all.

Is the web server internal?  I don't like using FTP unless it is, and still prefer SSH or SCP.

As much as I hate Lifehacker if you search for software on their site you generally find something great and free.

Research is your friend!

All you'd need to do for that is use WinSCP (http://winscp.net/eng/docs/guide_automation) (or your favorite SFTP-capable FTP client) instead of the Windows one.