f13.net

If that jibberish in the title meant anything at all to you, you may be in the right place.

Currently I'm strongly entertaining the idea of resurrecting my old UO shard, In Por Ylem. Not just because I can't seem to shake my own love of the game, but because I haven't stopped being hounded for a second about putting the server back up over the last several years... and Mythic seems completely unwilling to consider putting up any sort of classic server. Which I've always found a bit perplexing, but moving on.

Based on a Pre-UO:R classic ruleset, and with better than two thousand simultaneous clients connected at peak times, IPY is actually a bit of a legend in the UO server world. In fact, to my knowledge, without any sort of cheating or number fluffing, our user numbers have still never been eclipsed to this day.

So what I need right now are programmers. The stronger your C#, the better.

Due to various incidents last time around, I will be requiring a lot of you and rewarding you with little. That means that I'm looking for actual resumes complete with references, and it also means that nobody is getting unadulterated remote server access to do with as they please. What you do get, if you're looking for it, is a little recognition and a very shiny something to put on your resume should you be aspiring to a job (or a better job) in the online games industry.

So far, after asking for programmers on my blog, I've gotten quite a few applications. Some were good, some were poor. But not a single one hasn't flaked out once I explained in detail how little opportunity they'd have to abuse their position. I'm not sure if that's a problem with the type of readers my blog gets or if there's just a universal desire to want to mess with UO shards for your own gain. I suspect both. But I'm looking for honest folk here who, hopefully, I can tell are honest through their postings in this particular community - a community far enough removed from my own that I don't expect any shady or deceptive applications.

That's my goal with this post. Passionate, honest, dedicated and talented people willing to work for free on something that'll require a lot of hard work and never turn a profit. Those exist, right?

Moving on in an effort to keep this post short and sweet...

We will be working on two shards. One a relatively close replica of the old IPY (which I do still have the scripts for), another a much more complex affair which will require quite a bit of work - a feature rich extrapolation of Ultima Online's future had EA's goals been a bit different when desigining UO:Renaissance. No mindless coding here as I've set up several topics for discussion and plan on collaboration and taking your suggestions into consideration during design meetings. You'll have a genuine say in how things turn out, and I hope that's something you're interested in.

Additionally I really would love to find some great pixel artists and fantastic website designer since my skills aren't exactly up to snuff when held up against I'd like to accomplish. I'd even love to find people who are hoping for future employment as community managers. Lord knows it's something I'm horrible at in practice.

So, more visibly, I'm looking for:

- C# Programmers
- Pixel Artists
- Website Designer
- Community Manager
- Good with Unity? Love you long time.

If you want to flex your muscle a bit or are just ultra passionate about UO, get in touch and we'll discuss where you might fit in.

Very interested in speaking to people with extensive experience with the Unity engine. Please get in touch.

Also I apologize for stealing Stormwaltz's thunder.

Oh wow, you were IPY? I didn't know that. Right on. I have no skills to contribute, but I'll play it again when you put it up. :)

You're not stealing his thunder. You're offering the potential to establish a real game, requiring hard work in a specialized field for little tangible reward other than some good stories and job experience. He's offering folks the opportunity to LIVE THE DREAM for no reward other than the the (incredibly slim) chance to see their DESIGN FANTASIES BECOME REALITY.

Totally different thunders... and although I'm afraid I haven't got any of the skills you need, I have a feeling your clouds are more likely to bring rain. Best of luck.

Yeah, I'd offer my expertise here if I had any in C#, or a decent internet connection.

Plus I don't own a copy of UO. :why_so_serious:

Does one have to have played UO to apply? :grin:

I suppose if you're good enough at what you do and are willing to put in some effort... I don't really see why not.

Obviously I'm no Carmack but I hold my own when it comes to C#. Are you planning on building from scratch, or basing it on someone else's code?

I may get back to you in a couple of weeks, when I have just a tad less consulting work to do (really quite murderous now), if you're still interested in coders by then.

One shard will be a matter of converting old code over to new server software and doing a few new things, second server will be based on that. The second will be where the real work is.

Interesting. 

Can we spark some discussion in the UO sub-forum  (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?board=53.0) on potential improvements you plan to add, Az?  There are quiet a few intelligent people who have a lot of experience participating in the UO Emulator scene (MrBloodworth, for example).

Definitely be fun, but probably a bit premature in a few ways. The best I could do for you is be vague and collect general opinions on various topics. I wouldn't be pleased to find this stuff up on someone elses server before it's on my own, and I don't want to get anyone hyped up for things that may not happen when all is said and done.

There's been some discussion on my blog (http://azaroth.org), but the first post you'll encounter is 161 comments of PvPer arguments over the finer details of PvP cheating, which is something I need to take seriously but might not interest you in the very least.

Exactly.  If there is a private design forum created at some point please let us know so we can participate.  There is good discussion on your blog, but it is buried behind a wall of text.

Plus I am curious as to what ideas you are looking to implement to improve things (ie. taking a complete different tangent then EA did).  This is actually pretty exciting; I have always wondered "what if..."

Well, hopefully other people are going to get as excited about the concept. Almost all of what I see right now is excitement over the plain vanilla IPY server going back up - which is only really something I'm doing because I felt those people would want the option. "What's this shit?" and "Why have you changed so much, faggort?" aren't things I felt like hearing every day.

You know, I was just about to post something on the UO forum for you, Cheddar. Then I realized that any discussion revolving around and examining the evolution of Ultima Online and the concept of going back to fork a new path away from UO:R onward would inevitably devolve into a TRAMMEL VS. NOTRAMMELASDF flamefest.

I doubt it.  We went there years ago; I have faith in Yegelov to monitor and nuke as needed.

Personally I feel sections of the world could get "trammelized" effectively.  Example: Brit area.  As you get further out it gets progressively more risky with greater reward.

Maybe have places like Fire Island and Dagger Island be full on PvP without penalty? 

I wonder if different islands can have different rules. Jhelom could be all vs all, Moonglow could be team-based, etc.

On production servers the areas are squared off and on seperate servers, so I imagine its very feasible.  Check out UO automap if you want an example.

I would imagine the virtue cities not being open PvP per say, but you could make the Jehlom pits be open PvP.  Maybe even include some ladder system whereby there is a reason to actually parttake in the pit?

I need coders.

A major advantage of the 2 server idea is you can "test" people with the original and decide who would make a good CM/GM etc when the second one launches. Obviously you are investing a lot of energy/emotion into your "primary" project, so this will be a major factor to consider.

Errr, responding to your blog from here and whatnot.

My comment on the "mainsteam" post:

Professional communication and documentation is going to be paramount to the second servers success.  One of the things mainstream people will want is guidance; since it will be difficult to emulate the hand holding "modern" MMO's have due to the architecture you will need to provide a website with accessible information that makes sense.  Same goes with updates.  Polish the message, have the information on hand, and keep parts of the forum on target to the conversation at hand.

The IPY mindset drew antisocial vultures, for the most part.  For me this was a difficult hurdle to overcome.  Angel Island tended to have a more mature audience and decent documentation (though this decreased dramatically as it came close to closure).  The difference is extremely noticeable.

edit.  Commented on a previous blog note.

Which is a funny comment, because I have a player being a douchebag on my blog right now. I've kind of taken the high road to this point, but just now I told him he could make reservations to delicately dine on his own nutsack with a glass of chilean chianti if he continued being a fucking twat, because that's what he'd be having for dinner if I came home tonight to see more of his shit on my blog. I believe I worded it much less politely over there, though.

Funny only because I decided a long while ago that for the sake of what you just mentioned, I'd never lower myself to their level again. Even my best plans don't work when it's only blog discussion and I haven't set anything up to insulate me from these muppets. When these guys start spouting bullshit, lying, and trying their best to engage you into a game of responding back and forth for eternity to their knuckleheaded bullshit - the best thing to do is ignore it. Problem is that I'm not smart enough to keep ignoring it. Eventually I'll get pissed off and I have to say something. It's difficult for me to just sit back and let people say whatever they want because they have their own personal agenda (this particular person is supporting another server and is afraid it'll die off if IPY goes up), wondering if innocent passerby are going to believe the bullshit and lies.

As far as testing ground - there is none. The vanilla server will probably be more popular than the custom ruleset.

I think the major advantage is that the second server is that I consider it an answer to the many, many problems of a classic ruleset. Once the first server has been up for a while and people start realizing those problems again, the second will be opened, (hopefully) address them, and get people interested again.

This is all while I'm NOT getting white powder envelopes in the mail because I put up a "fucking bullshit carebear crap" server and gave people no option to play an oldschool server without my changes.

This is what has me extremely excited.  Many, many times over the I have wondered how things would have been if EA had gone another direction.  Time permitting, I would love to take an active role with this project in some capacity. 

Azaroth, I went looking at your blog, because any mention of a e-slagging makes me hard.  That was pretty fucking awesome.

I also noticed mention of a possible newbie zone/dungeon/experience.  You need that, because the current UO playerbase is stagnant and you probably are interested in drawing people in at a steady rate to keep the emergent game experience going through it's paces.  If some random pvp grognard lends his game CD's or directs a friend to a torrent with the recommendation to try out IPY you need this poor sap with no fucking clue to sharpen up quick, because he's a decade behind.

My take: look at what The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion did with their starter dungeon.  Don't do that, that shit was long and tedious.  Make it short, sweet, and skippable.

Not even sure a newbie dungeon can exist on the classic server. The river of tears flowed almost deep enough to extinguish the effigies when I proposed one to the community last time around.

Of course no matter what kind of game you're making, the last thing you can EVER do is listen to the players.

Cheddar, I'm excited that you're excited. However, you're probably idealizing my solutions and imagining your own in place of them. Just remember that there are a million ways to skin a cat here - and you might not like the way I choose.

The discussion will be enough to satisfy me.  I would not want to lead on anything; rational discourse and watching as things unfold would be awesome.

Okay, so here's some discussion to chew on. Not making you dig through 100+ comment blog posts, so here's what I just posted.



Edit: Background being that people have generally been a bit upset about the idea of possibly splitting the total population with two servers. Instead, a lot of people have been saying that a second 'expansion' facet should be added. Which I like and dislike for a host of reasons.

How about one test server, one live server, then migrate your changes on the test server to the live as you get feedback?

EDIT: Unless your changes are really that serious that you cannot migrate them.

OK, I am breaking out my IRL management shit here.

You need to decide who your base consumer is going to be.  Taking past practice into account I assume you want a more balanced playbase.  Disregard everything in your blog; those are the same guys who tanked your last venture.  You need a private area (forum) to speak freely without all the pollution.  Also keep in mind anything you create will have the brand of "old skool."  You may want to think of shifting your name or using someone else (name only) as the proponent of your new project.

What is your goal?  If its to make cash that's fine.  If its to dominate the emulator scene that's fine as well.  If its to go a different direction and show artistic/design dominance that is an entirely different endeavor.  You will need to approach it professionally and logically.  Combine the three?  Take a realistic assessment of your resources.

Two facets will not work.  With introduction of new mechanics you will find people exploiting and taking advantage of the situation.  Unless you are willing to spend the manpower (which you do not have) to combat this then its doomed to failure.  Users will always find ways to bend/break rules.  Period.  

You will need a new player area.  You want to draw in new players - Ultimas lack of hand holding almost requires this.  Key will be to make it a central hub for elder players to help the new guys out.  Check out EA's servers to see what I mean.  Also, you will need IPY.  Those guys may be dicks, but they will change habits to get new meat to join.

All good advice, what can I say.

I need to take a minute to sit back and think about my approach. The entire problem here is getting caught up with the oldschoolers and trying to please them. Which is fine and all, but it's diverting my attention signifcantly. They're a tough crowd to please and any slipup will result in so many problems that it's been boggling my mind a bit.

In the end, two shards was the correct decision from the beginning. Those guys can have what they want in the first server, and if they don't like the second one they can pretty much be ignored.

Then might I suggest you find a way to either allow for transfers from one server to the other?  Or even share a character database between the two servers if it stores character data in a way that doesn't cause problems?  It sort of depends on what kind of differences will exist in your servers, and how the server emulator stores and accesses data, but if you're looking to avoid dispersing your playerbase to the two winds either option would be appropriate if they are in fact options.

I think you will also find them evolving in an effort to join the people on your new venture.  Most of them HAVE evolved already; they just need an outlet thats removed from their previous asstardery.  Its kinda like when you get together with your buddies from 5-10 years ago.  Even though you are all older, with occupations and family, you all still get drunk and have too many shots in some vain effort to relive those times.  Or something.

What I am trying to say is that I would bet many will change their ways to fit in with the new shard.

I'll throw this out here:  LoTRO monster play is a pretty fucking great idea in the abstract sense.  The same with the WoW zombie invasion event that occurred before the launch of Wrath of the Lich King.  The latter was probably the coolest thing that ever happened in WoW, because almost everything going on stopped while people pvp'ed armies of undead players and their minions or turned entire towns.

I did not want to clutter this thread so started a neckbeard thread on the UO board.  Specifically addressing melee and armor. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=18025.0)

How proficient do the C# coders need be?

Depends. I can get a person started on any number of tasks fitting any number of skill levels, most likely.

At the moment, we're mostly porting old code to a new version of server software. It's a fine opportunity to get your feet wet.

Ninja edit.

What is it you are doing with the unity engine?

No one here is jumping in with dev theories.  Its depressing.   :uhrr:

I may have a super awesome programmer interested.  He is awesome at web shit as well.  Also able to engage in critical thinking.  I am slowly reeling him in...  :awesome_for_real:

Haha, fantastic. Thanks.  :thumbs_up:

Does he do Unity? :D

I'm shutting my mouth and watching, pretty much. Just interested, but don't really have anything to add to the conversation. ^_^

Interesting project.  Isn't it like asking for help to pirate a game though?

Fine, don't tell me then.  :-P

I'd love to, but the answer to that question will have to wait a while.  ;D

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1266/cyborg3.gif) (http://www.kongregate.com/games/NetworkOfNinja/cyber-recession-warrior-edgar)

No matter how long I stare at that post I still have no idea what you're saying.

For the record, I promise not to shit up any threads with Trammel / Feluccia stuff. At work tomorrow, I'll actually read stuff and try to give some input.

Go Az!

Hm? What's confusing?

He quoted what jobs were available and then you posting you were looking for people with Unity experience. Then he asked what you were going to be doing implying he might be able to help and then you posted that you can't say and he posted the pixelish ex-cyborgs death cycle from the flash game we made earlier this year as a response to you asking for something and then not saying why.

I see. Well, that clears that up perfectly then.

I saw no mention that he had experience. It just looked like he was curious.

Desperately seeking dedicated coders.

Please enjoy cheap red wine and long walks on the beach.

I decided to give Divinity a try, but for some reason I get flickering while in full screen.  Its driving me insane!  I set compatibility mode up with both razor and UO (Windows XP SP 2, Admin mode, Disable desktop, etc) and its still happening.  I guess I could play in Window Mode; at least that way I can change the resolution to something wide screen.

Anyhow, throwing this post here because I wanted to query when you would start testing things out as far as IPY/AC or whatever you are going to call it.

With the current dedication level of my coders?

Never.  :oh_i_see:

I spend all of my time playing cat herder/looking for new coders and none of it doing the things I should be doing.

Coder situation has changed within the last month. I think I've got about ten now.

That being said:

http://azaroth.org/?p=384#more-384

Quests! I got this awesome idea where there are rats in a cellar and you have to clear them out, otherwise the miller's grain will be eaten. There's like ten of them.

I have experience!

But I can't say in what.


(See what I did there :) )



Welcome to my world! (Recent collaborative F13 coders excluded)

That sounds awesome and I think it should be included in every MMO.

Good idea, but we can go a different direction with it...  How about requesting ten looted starter robes to wipe up the carebear tears?  Since, you know, that would make the bread salty.

http://azaroth.org/?p=388

More di-skuhsh-uhn.

Holy shit dude, that's an awesome direction to go in. I had thought you were just going to make it open PvP, like old school, then toss in a bunch of somewhat-Ultima-ish quests as something to keep people busy between smack fests.

Nope.

Edit: This post was longer, but I felt it was a little hype-ish. If I can over-deliver on something you don't have incredibly high expectations of, that's a good thing. Follow my blog for a better idea of what my philosophies are on this one. Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised when it's ready to go.

Man good luck, I read the comments on that virtue entry and all I saw was a huge list of exploits waiting to happen. "Oh man I just rezkilled that guy right off the shard. Get your newbie out and stand him in the orc fort so I can heal him, I need to get more Compassion."

I think a lot of that is unavoidable, without GM intervention. The original Ultimas were full of that anyway; healing up, donating blood, healing again, donating again, picking fights with snakes then waiting for them to run away, etc.

Crap, now I want to play Ultima 4 again.

Well, I'm doing what I can to prevent exploits. Obviously I can't get into that really, since that kind of thing being public knowledge wouldn't be wildly helpful.

We'll see how things go. I'm sure we'll have our challenges. Since I'm not trying to sell any boxes, I can probably have a nice long period that I call an "Open Beta", which will hopefully buy me time to fix some things and then wipe the shard clean.

Time-based diminishing returns would solve the spamming / macro issue.

A multiplier on every act which increases the end karma gain/loss if it is opposite of your current alignment would make it trend towards zero more.

Diminishing returns are definitely involved in the plan.

In fact, diminishing returns seems to be involved in everything I do. And I hate diminishing returns.

Does that make me a bad game designer?

???