f13.net

Meh, this is getting boring and turning into some mutant combination of...

A)  Morrowind + retards

B)  Slow-paced Diablo 2 + broken login server

At least in UO there are houses, and an economy.  Yes, it's a broken economy, but at least everything worth having isn't soulbound.

omfg? u think WoW suxx0rz? LOLLLLLLLERBALL!

Edit: GIS for LOLLERZ
(http://gritton.org/petz/adoptpix/lollerz.gif)

Edit: BTW, the houses are infested:
(http://homepage1.nifty.com/enfield/uo_house-top01.jpg)

I canceled yesterday. I suppose I'll come back again though. It just needs more time.

I can't think of any MMO worth playing right now except City of Heroes...Which, to be honest, is even more shallow than WoW will ever be. Yet, it still manages to be somewhat interesting. Also, the population of retards seems to be only a fraction of what WoW holds (from what I can tell at least).

The downside is that it's a grind, and with nothing to do in the end (as of yet). A grind is bad as enough as it is, but even worse when you realize you did it for nothing.

Then there's EQ2. I went out and bought it, but I couldn't even get past character creation. That alone killed it for me. I'm still subbed though...What am I missing?

About $49.95.

UO sucks now, mkay?

So you don't like WoW anymore? I... well, I don't care. All your points were either things I don't encounter or are things I actually like. So yeah, WoW doesn't suit you, you chose a fucktard server, AND you didn't go shopping for a new server when you realised this (the new servers are much nicer btw, less BNet kiddies as they all got in early). Thems the breaks.

Well, it's EQlive all over again. I thought we all knew that? Guess not.

Actually, I still find the art rather appealing. Some things strike a raw nerve, but the landscapes and cities are quite entertaining.

Additionally, I've found the population not to be nearly so bad as I first would have thought. It's miles ahead of EQOA, considerably better than EQlive, and might even be better than EQ2 (though I didn't play EQ2 enough to really find out). At least people are interested in questing in WoW. In EQ2 all anyone I ran into wanted to do was set up camp and grind. Couldn't get groups to do quests for anything. Lame.

Since hardly anyone, if anyone at all, around here plays UO anymore, I suppose we won't be seeing you around f13 after this.  I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say, "

(http://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/shout02/images/carfire.jpg) "

Good luck in life.

Can someone please erase that account now?

I'm still enjoying the game a lot, but man, the quests just took a sudden jump upwards in level requirements unless I missed something.

I'm level 25, and finally got a good group to finish VanCleef, which is meant for level 20 or so players, and a letter you get at the end of it gives you a new quest that eventually sends you to the stockades, which is stuffed to the brim with level 32+ players.

Back to Redridge to finish off some of the boring ass quests there I guess.

Yah, the level requirements increase as you move up it seems - I think it's so that you can either a) wait awhile and do the quests when you are a higher level or b) force you to group or ab) both. Of course, I still get my ass kicked in the stockades at level 31, but I did finish the 4 quests in there at level 27, just need a good group.

I have quests for level 38 that I'm not even thinking of touching until level 35+ and I'll make sure I have a group for it. I think Blizzard's idea is simply to get you to _want_ to group for these quests rather than do them solo (like you are able to do up to about 25ish). Of course, elite quests are quite different than normal quests.

I remember when some idiot around here was calling me a liar for saying so many quests in WoW essentially required grouping.

Bruce

The majority of quests do not require grouping. Most of them are simple 5 minute delivery or kill 10 weak mobs. You don't notice how many you do because they are so pitifully easy.

Then you get to an elite quest that takes 3 hours and requires a full group and you start noticing how much of a pain in the ass it is.

The stockades can be done with a group of 25-28. I have no idea what 32s are doing there they can't possibly be getting any sorta of decent xp. I'm up to 39 now and I've found about half the quests require a group if you want to finish them quickly. Of course I havn't been doing quests for the last 3 lvls. SM is just way to much fun. At 25 you should probably head to darkshire or wetlands. Darkshire IMO is one of the coolest lower lvl areas in the game.

Usually this means its time to change zones and seek out new towns to give you quests. I never played that high on the alliance side, so I cant tell you where to go, but I do know that in general the alliance has more quests than the horde so you shouldnt have much problem. Inless you have had a higher level player running you through quests there is no way to do all the quests for most levels with out leveling up to be ready for the next quests.

Yah, I've found that true too. Been messing around in Hillsbrad and Arathi Highlands, but looking to do Gnomeregan soon. :) (If anyone knows of another Alliance zone besides those two for a level 31'er, let me know!).

You can start the quests in stranglethorn vale at level 30, if you want you can easily stay there until 50.  Im level 42 and i still have red quests to do there.  Start with the hunting quests and rebel camp quests to the north then work your way south to booty bay.  Darkshire quests should also be good at that level, and the feel of the whole zone is just amazing.  Desolace is another good place, you can start the quest that leads to the scarlet monastery in your high 30s there.

Is this the time when everybody announces that they cancel their subscription because of  ...

to much questing ?
not enough questing ?
too many retards ?
not a big enough playerbase ?
broken game mechanics ?
missing endgame ?
pointless PvP ?

or my alltime favourite, burnout  because I played beta for 6 months ?

Damm, I really should put more time into the game so I can join you guys again

Yes.  But just to be clear, I never claimed the "majority" needed grouping.  I think I just complained that they were so numerous, and when pressed for figures, gave an estimate of around 10%.  Note sure if Elite Quests still show up as Elite in your completed quest log in WoW -- or even if WoW has a log of completed quests.  In any case, that won't catch those quests that weren't Elite but pretty much required a group anyway for the level at which they were doled out.  But, my point is, people could check their own quest lists and see what their percentage is.

Bruce

World of Warcraft doesn't suck.  It does a certain thing, and it does it better than any of the other games that try to do the same thing.  WoW has lasted long enough to get a subscription fee out of me, while AC lasted less than a week, and DAoC/Horizions/whatever never even convinced me to pick up the box.

The quests are a great way to advance, but I've never been very concerned with advancement.  In UO I've been known to turn the skill gain notices off completely.  As far as I can tell, here's what appeals to me in UO:

*  Overhead speech text, and a lack of tells.  It feels like you're talking to someone, not like watching a cartoon with a chat box below.

*  The housing system is quite good.

*  Economy.  Don't lecture me on the price of ingots.  When I came back to UO last time with a fresh character, I made newb cash by finding cheap weapons on player vendors and selling them at Britain bank for twice as much.  Most of the "super rich" people I knew made their money simply through "buy low, sell high."  Vendor browsing and negotiating at the bank can make you a lot more cash than monster killing, if you feel like it.

*  No classes, no levels.  My hybrid necromancer/macer/samurai might suck compared to more conventional templates, but at least there aren't a thousand guys just like me on the server.

*  Character customization.  Not at character creation, but afterward in the form of cloaks, sashes, robes, masks, dye tubs, etcetera.  I can quite often recognize someone without looking at their name in UO.

EDIT:  Grouping wasn't a problem in WoW.  I was a level 30 paladin and was soloing most of what I needed to do.  Occasionally I would team up with one or two other people in the area if something was a bit too hard.

Going by that, I'd say that you probably like Raph more than you had thought. UO probably wouldn't have had any of those little things without him.

You might even like SWG:



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Sucks here. There's more customization at creation, but in-game, just about everyone is wearing composite armor. But besides that, much of the game is done in the style of UO.

Elite quests become more common the higher you level. Some quest "types"--like anything to do with gnomes--are mostly elite.

As you level higher, you'll find many quest cycles will turn elite at the last cycle or two. The Resistance quests in Stranglethorn are a good example of this. A lot of class specific quests will have a ton of fedex stuff, then a fight with an elite boss to wind things up (warrior Cyclonic series springs to mind).

I like doing quests. It did gall me some to keep having to skip the few early elite quests just because I out-leveled them so quickly and/or couldn't hook up with friends to do them. However, you get so many quests, that really you can't see or do everything. I've missed huge numbers of them, and most instances besides. Even so I have a maxed quest log most of the time. Trying to sync them with friends takes a lot of time and effort, but that's what I play for.

Overall, I have to say I do like the way Blizzard has set things up. I have some quibbles over game mechanics, but the simple fact is the game IS fun. Occasionaly irritating, sure, but I keep coming back because I do enjoy it. Even as a warrior.

I've been wondering where the game will go eventually. The first year of EQ, we all didn't much care. Now we do. Still, even EQ had a year of nothing but two dragons and endless grinding in GUK and SolB. At least in WoW, we have about 4 instances....heh.

I love to quest.

I could stop there but I really should qualify. I like to do quests because they are quests. It could give me no money, give no xp, give no items, be as annoying and lame as hell, but every character of mine will do it because its a quest damnit. Alot of people complain about fedex quets and I'll join in when the fancy suits me. I'll also bitch when I get jack-all for my efforts, and I'll complain when the last 10 creatures I kill don't drop that last GODDAMN LIVER. WTF IS WITH ALL THE KILLING OF BOARS FOR THEIR ASSORTED BODY PARTS ANYWAY? But if given the choice I'd do it again 'cause I just can't get enough.

So yeah, WoW is my cocaine and I can't see me getting off it for a while now.

And I like Morrowind. Anybody want to guess how many times I've done the first fighter guild quest? It aint pretty.

Point is that there are alternatives to doing group quests, you don't HAVE to do any of them to get to level 60. It is good idea to do them but you can survive without doing them if you are hardcore soloer (why are you playing mmorpg again?)

Yes, but you don't HAVE to do ANY quests at all.  Yet I hardly think you'd find the game acceptable if someone gave that answer when you found all the quests too difficult or frustrating.



For the same reason why I can enjoy going to the movies alone, even though I'm sharing the entertainment experience in a crowd of hundreds of other people.

Bruce

That is completely a moot point.

Let's say I look at my 20 quests, and 5 of them are currently elite ones. Holy crap! 25 percent of this game is forcing me to group! *cries*

Actually, I can abandon those 5 elites and go find 5 non-elites to fill their spot. Non elite quests are all over the place. It all depends on what areas you have ventured to and explored. You can often find quests in your capital cities if you know where to look.

The main issue with quests is not a percentage of them forcing grouping. It is knowing where to find them, or accidentally passing some up that you failed to notice because they were in the back corner of town. You can go from level 1 to level 60 without ever doing an elite quest OR spending any significant time XP grinding.

Instances are completely optional in this game. You still get storyline and quests in series and exploration.

I would debate intances being optional. As I'm hitting my 40s as a warrior, I pretty much can't buy equipment in the AH anymore. It simply doesn't exist when you need it (which is about every other level).

Post-40, you are stuck with instancing to equip yourself. Some of your quests can help, but most will be elite, so you're still going to have to assemble a group to do them. Tradeskillers can make some useful stuff, but prices and supply of such things are highly erratic.

If one simply insists on doing almost everything solo, then your class choices are probably going to be restricted to the pet classes. They're far less equipment oriented, and since you bring your own group you're in much better shape for the higher level quests.

Generally whenever I start getting a decent number of Elite quests in my quest log, I also have several quests pointing me to different areas.  Hence I believe what the game is trying to do is encourage me to either get my ass outta the zone I'm in and explore other portions of the world, or group with other people.  If I don't want to do the latter, I can easily do the former and find entire new zones full of solo quests.  That's also why the gap between your level and the level of the quest you get increases, I think, so that if you like to group, you have the option of taking your group to do quests several levels above you.

25 instances according to thotbott.

I think he meant 4 end game instances, unless you intend to troll around Ragefire Chasm at 60.

The path of advancement is so predictable and linear.  There are certain quest, critters, and items set aside for different ranges of character level, and you just run through the world like Pac-Man scooping them up.  Soulbinding and level requirements on hardware are there to make sure nobody gets any creative ideas about going off the carefully planned course.

In UO I can train a warrior up to reasonable competence in relatively short order, and from there decide how I want to advance.  Maybe advancement is clobbering away on monsters until I'm 7xGM.  Maybe I'd rather augment my character with some uber-items.  Do I want to get them myself, or buy them?  If I buy them, do I want to raise the money through hunting or through bank-trading?  Maybe advancement for me is having a really kickass house.  Or taking the time to assemble a suit of armor with particular characteristics.

In WoW it's just quest, quest, quest, OMG DING GRATZ, quest, quest, shiny new sword, quest, quest, group with some retards, on to infinity.

WoW does have a lot of questing, but isn't that what everyone has been asking for since Day 1?



Um, that happens in WoW too, I'm not sure why you think this is unique. I can quest for uber items, I can buy them on the AH, or I can get twinked with the help of a guildie. I can raise money by doing quests, hunting, crafting, selling materials, or begging. Maybe my goal is to get the full Defias suit of armor, so I hunt for those item drops. Or, I use my Leatherworking skill to make me a suit of +stamina +agility items.

Maybe my goal is to have the largest guild on the server, so I'm more socially involved than anything else. (Of course, I should probably change my guild name from "Servants of Viin" to something else).

How is this different?

It's true that UO is the closest the world has gotten to a virtual world, versus the more game-like everything else in creation.

Too bad the game is too fundamentally flawed and outdated to ever regain its contender status again.  I look forward to someone else coming out with something comparable.

No, you can quest for the next shiny weapon in Blizzard's carefully planned progression, that you'll use for X number of levels and then sell off to an NPC because it's soulbound.



You can buy a subset of items which are appropriate for your level and do not bind on pickup, farmed by people who have no intention of using them because they bind upon being equipped.  Which will naturally be used for X number of levels and then dumped on an NPC.  Don't even think of selling your outgrown items to another player, or giving them away to a newb.  That might overpower the newb and throw him off of Blizzard's predestined course of content-consumption.



You'll be questing and mowing down foozles constantly anyway, because That's What You Do in World of Warcraft.



Crafting is a withered appendage of the quest/combat system.  A top-notch fisherman (or miner, or whatever) needs to be a badass killing machine, because the best fish just so happen to only be found near the hardest monsters.  For chrissakes, how much more transparently "gamish" can they make it?



That Defias suit had better fit into that narrow band between "above your level" and "too weak to be worth shit at your level" or else it's just a banksitting suit in a game where there isn't even banksitting.



Yes, WoW has guilds.  Too bad they can't really do anything.  At least in UO they can fight wars.  Hell, these days they can even form alliances and set victory conditions.

"Bind on Pickup" for item drops that aren't tied to a quest (i.e. the item you get for completing it, or a quest-starting drop from an NPC) is the biggest pile  of bullshit ever.

Maybe I'd like to collect a full set of Defias Armor and pawn it on the AH/Trade Channel for obscene amounts of cash? Nope. Soulbound. Beh.

Jesus Christ, I go on vacation, don't touch a computer 4 days and read this.

Could you guys(this can be thrown at numerous, but the central target is obvious) be a bigger bunch of whiney pussies? I swear, "I'm quitting" posts should fucking mandate a week ban and a backwards run through a cholla field followed by a bleach bath. BE THANKFUL MY FINGER IS UNABLE TO REACH THE BUTTON.

Play UO and bathe in the irony of point B.  

Tyioe'theys rhlysuis thibuguhg'ghh!

I think that this is a temporary thing.  Warriors are equipment-dependant, and always will be, but you are a bit ahead of the levelling curve atm.  That's why you aren't seeing much 40+ gear, which drops from 45+ mobs, which aren't being killed as much, and when they are killed, it is more frequently by a member of a tight guild who pass the worthwhile loot around.  In a few months, I bet this won't be a problem at all.

It's easy to level to 60 just soloing, and gain the gear you'll need to keep soloing while soloing.  You miss out on the best part of the game doing that IMO.

I'm really dubious of this claim.  Have you gone from 1-60 (in either beta or retail) on a horde character without dong any instances, elite quests, non-elite quests that still required grouping, or grinding?  I don't think it can be done.  I'm 55 on a tauren warrior, and your claim doesn't match my experience.  I don't spend a lot of time in instances or do a lot of elite quests (though I've done some), and I've run out of quests that I can solo on quite a few occassions.  The levels are longer and there are less quests per zone than in the early levels.  At 49, for instance, I went to Ashzara and did every quest I could solo (which was pretty much every quest I could find except one line) and got about half a level.  

It could be I missed a lot of quests someplace, but I don't know where.  And I would have needed a huge amount more of quests to go from 45-55  purely on soloable quests; at least double the amount I got, maybe more.    Additionally, pretty much everyone I know that's 45+ has either grinded, spent a lot of time in instances, or is a hunter (who can solo many outdoors elite quests, not to mention non-elites a warrior would still have trouble with, like escort quests).

I will say, though, that the number of quests I have at 55 seems better than at 45.  The mid 40s to the low 50s was a real quest lull for me.  I had mostly completed Feralas and Tanaris.  I went to some zones I hadn't yet been to, like Swamp of Sorrows and Badlands, only to find them mostly green (and still did them).  Zones like Hinterlands, Blasted Lands, Ashzara, and Searing Gorge simply didn't have that many quests in them (that I could find).  Once you hit like 51 or 52 though, Burning Steppes, Felwood, Un'Goro Crater and Western Plaguelands become practical to solo, and the quest situation improves.

UO/SWG on one side DAoEQWoW on the other. This has been the case for a long time. WoW is just the currently-reigning champ of the EQ style of play. It does it very well, but make no mistake, WoW is no more comparable to UO than EQ was.

Why you play one or the other isn't about the game, it's about personal preference. UO offers nearly flat character advancement because character advancement and unravelling game-directed storylines is not what the game is about. What you do with yourself once you've got the character you want is what the game is about. It's entirely self-motivated, and gives enough tools for breadth. Same with SWG. Players don't spend most of their time worrying about maximizing their character. That's a foregone conclusion, a Schrodinger-esque constant in time just waiting for players to catch up. You don't spend 90% of your enjoyment of the game trying to become a Bounty Hunter. You spend 90% of your enjoyment of the game trying to find stuff to do as a Bounty Hunter, until you become bored and want to find some new way to enjoy the game.

WoW offers fast character advancement, but it's still about character advancement in a game-directed storyline. Once you hit level 60 in the current game, there's not much more to do than if you maximized a character in EQlive. Yea, Battlegrounds will eventually add relevance to the PvP that is currently just deathmatch and keeping others from completing quests (or "enriching the act of questing within a dynamic virtual world" if you like the PvP stuff ;) ). But for right now, players invent their own reasons to stick with the game that either involves helping friends, re-experiencing the linear game, or camping forums about it.

This is mostly just "tastes great"/"less filling" sorta faire.

And just to qualify: there's plenty of story and lore in UO just like there's plenty of ways to not bother with story and lore in WoW. That requires you care though, and sometimes it's just easier to not. That's nothing the game is going to change.

One complaint I have heard about WoW that is for me both a good and a bad are the pretty obvious quest paths. Generally say if you start by storm wind you will do quests in a pretty directed progression through goldshire to westfalls to the red hills and so on.

I know some do not like it because they felt it led them by the nose. I can see their point but one thing WoW does a good job with is making sure nearly all the content in the game gets used. In eqlive and many games after a pretty short time you fill find some areas just being ignored and never visited because there was no reason to see them.

The quests in wow pretty much lead you on a tour of zones that are currently level appropriate for you.

All in all though it is a game that appeals to people differantly than something  like UO or SWG. If you truly enjoy UO that much you may want to try out SWG which is a very similar type of game with alot prettier less eye stabby graphics/interface.


kaid

Ack.  I feel the opposite.  I was greatly irritated the few times I had to wander around randomly trying to figure out where the quest givers are.  Localizing by level minimized that.  It also means you can quickly tell whether you should be in a zone or not.  If I wander into a Crater and get jumped by 4 ?? mobs, I can be pretty confident that there is nothing in that zone I should be dealing with and no quests there for me.

/copy
/paste

Thank you a lot ...

What turned me off SWG was hearing people talk about all the foozles they killed, and the relative merits of fencing versus swordsmanship.  Jesus holy shit Christ, any dev team that takes fucking Star Wars and turns it into killing critters with your two-handed sword can kiss my ass.

As opposed to what? Cyber s3xx0r1nG using your l33t Jedi mind tricks?

Bring the noise.
Cheers................

What SWG shoulda done:

*  Set the game in a different era of Star Wars, one where there are plenty of Jedi and Sith.  As Raph posted elsewhere on this site, someone above him demanded it be set in the movie era, and that's a shame.  Knights of the Old Republic and plenty of other games have proven that's not the only era that can sell.

*  Now that there's plenty of Jedi and Sith, let people be them without grinding for months on end.  Just don't make them TOO uber (c'mon, Jango Fett did pretty well in that fight with Obi Wan) and make it so they can't own housing.  That'll keep everyone from being them, and if everyone wants to be a Jedi anyway, fucking let them.

*  Make most of the PvE be against intelligent beings rather than animals.  Throw in pirates, organized criminal factions, gang members, a rogue Jedi and his followers, the Republic army, whatever.  Lots of small factions, not two huge ones.

*  Have them all give quests to kick the shit out of each other, and if you kick the shit out of faction X enough, they stop talking to you, attack you on sight, etc.  Let players get back to "barely tolerated" status with a given faction by paying a fee or doing some difficult quest, so they don't permanently bork themselves.

*  Let them sign on as official members of a given faction, and PvP against people in whatever faction theirs hates.

*  Ditch the official in-game political skillset.  Jeez, what a way to bork a template with something that should either be roleplayed or just plain gamed.

*  Smuggling and bounty hunting are already in, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume they're pretty good.  In my alternate universe SWG, however, there's less time spent on Wookie dancing and more spent on making these systems really polished.

*  Lots of clothing that either functions as or can be worn over armor, and recolored easily, ala UO.

What SWG should have done:

Ctrl A
Delete
Find new lines of work

What SWG should have done was not be UO with a small dash of AO wrapped in Star Wars graphics.

The whole Jedi system might have made the game a wee bit more like Star Wars, well except for Jedi having to grind out a bunch skills that have nothing to do with the Force.

Some of the team that brought you UO decided to remake UO with Wookies. Too bad that sucked.

I liked the UO elements myself. If it was designed by McQuaid, SWG would be even worse. Much worse.

If it wasn't for HAM, Battle Wounds, and the extreme focus on player interpendency, the game would be pretty good, I think. But I don't think it's broken by design necessarily. These things can be fixed or adjusted. Whether they will be is yet to be seen.

I consider it a macro-tutorial. It's not some front-loaded tutorial that teaches you basics and then lets you loose upon the world (ala EQ, SWG, or AC1). It's a game guide that'll lead you from 1 to 60. It's not just the levels and zones either. It's the equipment you get and the tradeskills you can practice. Tradeskill application in zones is governed by it's own set of levels (like, you need to collect Silverleaf to work Herbalism high enough to collect Mageroyal and beyond, and eventually you'll be in zones that offer Khadgar's Whisker but no Silverleaf... which is fine if you worked Alchemy up to a similar level because nothing of worth needs Silverleah anyway).

Two reasons I like it:
[list=1]

• It's telling a progressive story. If you follow the game "as intended", you'll learn the lore.
• It's entirely voluntary. Someone who likes EQ can play EQ in WoW. [/list:o]
  
  Quote from: WindupAtheist
  What SWG shoulda done:
  
  The internet almost imploded last June during the under the mountain of pentabytes written about this very topic. Think of the children before you start tossing grenades like that again man!
  
  What SWG shoulda done was not be called Star Wars at all.

This is quite true.  While someone might enjoy being a humble lumberjack in Ultima Online, a Star Wars title is bound to suffer from ten times as much "I want to be THE hero!" syndrome.

Still, folks keep telling me I'd like it.  I'll probably give it a shot next time UO starts boring the shit outta me again.

Windup,

Here's my advice about SWG. If you like Star Wars at all, do not under any circumstances play SWG. It is not Star Wars.

It is a huge grind fest, with lots of forced interaction with players who are probably afk macroing anyway. UO other than Raph's belief players would police themselves and act civil was kind of cool. SWG is a failed experiment.

Hell, AO, with a Star Wars makeover would be more Star Wars than SWG is.

On the other hand, it's not really that much of a grindfest if you have no intentions of playing a Jedi. Riggs tried taking that step, so it's going to color his opinion somewhat.

I have a Bounty Hunter, which is always somewhere around the second or third best combat spec, but it doesn't even take half the time or resources to make one as it does to climb up the Jedi skill tree. And definitely not near the amount it takes to unlock force sensitivity (especially if the Holocron says that you must "learn Master Bounty Hunter").

I already had an Expert BH in the first month of release, and that was the biggest known grind at the time. I have no direct experience with Jedi's, but if I'm not mistaken, it's at least 6 months or so. Big difference. Especially considering that a Bounty Hunter is still capable of killing Jedi's (or so I've heard).

If I play, I'll probably just build a character up enough to do something cool, and then get at it.  What does an expert bounty hunter do in SWG, precisely?

I mean, that's really what a game should be about...  Develop a character than can do something fun, and then go do it.  Characters in EQ and it's spawn don't seem to do anything.  You're just expected to keep developing them forever, because That's What You Do in a MMOG.

It's an extension to the Scout and Marksman trees, and theoretically, the best path to go down if you want a pure combat character...At least the kind that uses guns. They also get special missions and droids to track down bounties etc..

The only thing is, as a Master Bounty Hunter, it takes up so many skill slots that that's about all you can do. It feels more like a "class" in the EQ sense than most of the other paths in SWG. But for good reason. They're already versatile enough as it is.
If you wanted to dabble in things though, you can do that too, and still be quite effective.

The only skills you don't want to dabble in are crafting professions. If you're gonna make, say, a Droid Engineer, make a Master Droid Engineer. You won't be able to compete if you don't. You'll still have enough skill points to master another tree (I think the limit is 2 1/2), but if you're going to make a crafter, you wouldn't benefit much from it if you did it half-assed.

As for "fun"...That's a whole other thing entirely. Right now, I think the players who get the most "fun" out of their characters are those involved in trade and crafting. Combat, the Galactic Civil War, killing Rebels? Not so much. Even if I could wipe out an entire city, I'd give it a "Meh".

Jump to Lightspeed seems to add a whole new dimension though...??

An effective trolling.  Well done, Windupathiest.

Honestly, guys, you really believed somebody would quit WoW for Ultima Online?   I'll buy getting bored of WoW and quitting - even the best game can't teach you enough to stay infinitely enjoyable.  It's just that "going over ot Ultima Online" thing afterwards thing...

It's like saying you've traded in your Lamborghini because the Pinto in the back of the lot with the blown tire and five bullet holes across the windshield just has charm.  Nostalgia should not be able to adequately cover the deficiency involved.   They're putting NINJAS in the next expansion, for cripes sake.

But yes, if he were serious, good advice was offered here.   SWG is very much 3D Ultima Online on steroids with Star Wars dressing in many ways.    If it's an Ultima Online esque crafting vibe you seek, either SWG or A Tale In The Desert are good choices.

WindupAtheist had been a major proponent of UO since he showed up here, Geldon.  In fact, I believe he left UO to play WoW.

So leaving WoW to go back to UO isn't a terribly unbelievable statement, coming from him.

Alkiera

[snips the part that I accidently accidently pasted from Microsoft Word]

Well, I guess I shouldn't underestimate the power of familiarity.   One thing that Raph brings up in his Theory of Fun book is that people resist change, after they've found a good niche.  I guess, under that perspective, I could believe somebody wanting to drop a hot title like WoW for their old stomping grounds of UO.   I would be lying to say I was immune to this.

Though I will say that it's probably time to move on.  Particularly with rumors of Ultima Online's emmenant cancelation (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2004/12/ultima_online_r.html#more) (perhaps that topic should be a separate thread).      If you've really groked the concepts of Ultima Online and are looking for more, Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best choice.   A Tale From the Desert is good too, but the community involvement required to get ahead in that game is somewhat incompatible with my own introverted manner.   (The game won't have Geldonyetich in it - score another point for ATITD!)

It isn't a "hot title" to him. To most of the drooling masses out there it may be a "hot title", youself included, but to others it is just more of the same and not worth continuing to play. Am I one of those drooling masses? Yes. Unfortunately, I don't have time to play all the WoW I would like to.

What the hell else am I supposed to do with all that saliva in my mouth?!

You could spit it out. Sports stars do it all the time on TV so it's not rude like your mother said.

When I troll, you'll bloody well know it.



I mean yeah guys, come on!  WoW has shiny graphics and night elf titties!  You really think anyone would give all that up just to get away from OMG DING and the horribly repetitive gameplay?



I logged into UO, found an open patch of land, and custom-built my own house from scratch last night.  If I had been playing WoW... what?  I might have dinged again?



Blah blah blah, OMG UO GRAFIX SUXOR, yeah we know.  Too bad it's one of the very few games that actually feels like a game and not a university study on OCD.  If WoW added custom (or any) housing tomorrow, you'd shriek that it was the greatest thing ever.



You've managed to play a level-grind game for more than a month without going "Holy fuck, this got old."  Hence you are the devil, and your advice is suspect.

I like it when folks start getting all bent out of shape over "repetitive gameplay." Games by nature tend to be repetitive. What might be more accurate is stating it's too repetitive for one's tastes.

MMRPGs are more repetitive than most. That's the nature of the genre as it is now. However, they are good places to get together with diverse friends and do...well...stuff. What that stuff is depends on the gamers. I happen to prefer fantasy to most other genres, so that's where I"m at.

All the MMRPGs I've played had their grind natures. EQlive, EQOA, EQ2, AO, CoH, WoW, AC1, AC2, DAoC, and we'll even throw in some dabbling in NWN in persistant worlds/campaigns. I think that about covers it. Some of these I had fun with. Some I could NOT tolerate more than a few days or weeks. The reasons varied.

I don't think I've ever quit a MMRPG because it's too grindy. I usually quit because of annoyance at game mechanics or a poor community. I'm a long RPG fan, so I'm used to a degree of grind. Most console RPGs have an element of grinding up the party before you can take on more advanced areas.

I think EQlive was the worst in that regard. I quit that game mostly because of what I regarded as a terminal case of balance-block on SOE's part. I wasn't having fun since I had no real function in game. So I quit.

I've not been a fan of the virtual world as opposed to just a game. Players with too much time on their hands and no direction are what usually cause a poor community or one in steep decline. Idiots are no fun to play with.

I ignored UO becuase the game was essentially a cesspool of mendaciousness and stupidity. That was the reputation the game had. We all know why. I wasn't about to touch it even for money. SWG has a bad reputation for truly lousy gameplay mechanics. Again, I wouldn't touch this.

WoW and CoH, however, are fun. Fun enough to keep my attention and the communities both have developed are idiot-free enough to make playing with your fellow subscribers tolerable. CoH might be a bit too simplistic for true long-term interest, but it IS fun. WoW has serious balance issues, but the game still works well enough that I do have fun with friends...even as a warrior.

That's the view from here.

People who enjoy the grind knowing it's a grind are people who enjoy wasting time. That's the only thing I can come up with to explain why people continue to grind away while knowing the whole time it is a grind.

It's not a grind when you're having fun.

That reminds me of "It's not braggin if you really done it".

And it's the same thing really - it's still bragging, but that's ok.  It's still grinding, but that's ok.

The fact that thousands of people have paid (millions if you count Korean MMOGs) means that grindage either really IS fun (gasp!) or that people are willing to put in long hours for a perceived payoff.  I suspect it's a little of both.

Hell, the grind is the only thing that gives me faith in this generation.  If some of us are willing to catass for teh ubar, at least some of us are goal-oriented and don't mind hard work.

The nice thing about calling yourself an atheist is I don't have to take your devil insinuations seriously.

Actually, I've transcended the grind somewhat.   I reached a level of being so burned out and repeatedly bored of Yet Another MMORPG having a unnecessarily long grind attached to it that I actually told myself, "Well, guess I'm going to have to learn to love the grind if I ever want to enjoy a MMORPG ever again."   Thus, I ended up enjoying Final Fantasy XI a lot, delightfully mad I was.

That said, it does come down to this: The Grind in itself is a concept that needs to be better fleshed out in order to understand why it generates pain.     It's not the fact that a MMORPG has a treadmill that causes the pain, but rather when that treadmill is associated with a repetitive act which you've long grown bored with.   Raph Koster's Theory of Fun would dictate the reason why you've become bored of it is because it has nothing left to teach you, even on a motor skill level.

My advice to you is this: If you don't like World of Warcraft, fine.   But you'll likely not find your boredom alleviated by returning to a game you were already bored of.   Ultima Online, for all it's virtual world dynamics, is nonetheless quite finite and spent for the vast majority of us.   Personally, were I in your shoes I would consider trying a different class in World of Warcraft, since with few exceptions they all play quite a bit differently.

Hard work?

Agreed, when a game becomes "hard work" to you, you might want to take a break.   The Achiever mindset is a false one in a virtual environment.   Play a game because it's fun, not because you enjoy lording imaginary power around.

When I was level 5 they wanted me to kill a dozen or so kobolds.  When I was level 15 it became gnolls.  At level 25 it became orcs.  The names and scenery kept changing, but I had basically used up the content.

I refuse to play any game as if it were work, and I like "wasting" my time on goofy shit.  In five years I've never had more than one character, I've never been more than 3xGM, I've never had more than one million gold, and I've never had a house larger than my current 9x12.  Hell, it took me two years to get any house at all, and I never even cast recall for my first six months just because it felt gimpy to me.

But I like tinkering with my little house, I joined a good guild, I've re-skilled my character so many times it's absurd, and I'm training myself a pet mongbat as a varmint-killer just for the hell of it.



Over the last five years, my UO account has only been active maybe 75% of the time.  I'd get bored, take a month off, then get the urge to return.  An MMOG doesn't need to keep you entertained seven days a week until the end of eternity in order to be good.



Meh.

Is EA paying you?  You do realize that 90% of the people on this board have played UO right?

If EA were paying me, they'd make me post here 18 hours per day and beat me when my postcount wasn't high enough, and then forget to pay me anyway.

I just want a game where I can buy a horse on the first day, okay developers?  I'll settle for that.  Please don't take every single moderately interesting thing and make it require grinding.

I think Alanis Morrisette just called. She wants the rights to that story to add another verse to a remixed MMOG version of "Ironic."

Thanks for proving my point.  The Achiever wouldn't be an archetype if it weren't a valid one in a virtual environment.  For some people, hard work with a goal in mind is enjoyable. To wit, I'll remove some of the unnecessary bits from your last sentence:



If you're enjoying lording your imaginary power, isn't that fun?

This doesn't really prove the point so much as indicate that some people (most notably Bartle) have recognized a play style that has been classified as the Achiever.  Merely finding a label for something doesn't make it legitimate.

So what problem do I have with the Achiever?   I call that play style into question because it strikes me as self-deception.   The main difference between a player relatively new to MMORPGs  and a burned out old MMORPG player who wants nothing to do with a traditional treadmill game anymore is that is the veteran no longer falls for that illusion.   The burned out see the a boring repetitive grind as a boring repetitive grind, not as a means to get imaginary power.

I've got a little past that (perhaps thanks to better picks in MMORPGs recently) in that I'm now willing to say that not all repetitive grinds are necessarily boring.   If you're having fun, good: for you, the treadmill need not concern you.   For one disillusioned about the idea of leveling, it seems a natural advantage to savor the journey, not the destination.

On the other hand, maybe I should humor people who want to make believe that their grinding in a MMORPG really matters in the grand scheme of things.    The imagination's not something to be shunned, after all.

*boggle*

So if playing a game the way you enjoy doesn't make for a valid playstyle what does make a legit playstyle?  If it has the Geldon platinum seal of approval?  Some tech in a white coat conducts tests with calipers, micrometers and a multimeter and proceeds to make tick marks on a check list until he stands up and declairs "This is a legitimate playstyle, it has all the indicators!"

You're a dipshit.

If people play that way, and they certainly do, then that makes is a playstyle and since its a playstyle it is just as 'legitimate' a style as any other.

Bartle was the one who created the Achiever archetype, and moreover indicated that nobody is really a pure achiever/socializer/killer/explorer. Even two players that are predominantly achievers are going to have different tastes and playstyles based on how they align with the other archetypes.



Did it ever occur to you that the jaded, burned out MMOG player might not *BE* much of an Achiever? This would explain why they are burning out on games that are focused so heavily on the achiever.

The flip side to this argument could be that since the endgame leaves everyone on a relatively equal footing, that there is no worthwhile power to be had, as the power differential between players is virtually nil. And this says nothing about the fact that in most of these games, once the endgame is reached, there is nothing left to do but socialize and/or pvp. In short, Achievers can get burned out on the grind if they begin to perceive the goals as insignificant and/or inconsequential relative to the amount of time/effort required to get there.



They aren't all boring FOR YOU. The moral of the story is that the boredom associated with the grind is subjective. Obviously, because otherwise treadmills wouldn't still dominate the genre.



Anyone who believes that anything associated with playing MMOGs "matters in the grand scheme of things" should be shot in the face. Twice. After being beaten mercilessly with a ball peen hammer.

Yknow what matters in the grand scheme of things? Contributions to society as a whole. Life, death, relationships. The impact you have on other people IRL, not some mental masturbation between the player and a set of numbers on a fucking server a few hundred miles away.

Anyone who doesn't grasp that needs to unplug for a few hours and go visit a cancer ward at the nearest children's hospital. That's the grand scheme of things. This shit we're talking about here is just what we do to kill time between work and sleep.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

In the "grand scheme of things", I can think of one player archetype that still matters: The EBayer.

But I digress. Back to the Geldon Show.

Bartle has his opinion, I have mine.  Neither changes reality.

Your framing of a compelling argument lacks subtlety.

DV, for the most part you're just elaborating on points I know well but didn't get around to typing.   However:

If this is what you believe, then you dislike the idea of the Achiever mindset in MMORPGs even more than I.   The problem with the Achiever mindset is that, while under it's influence, one would believe that their imaginary achievements matter.   If you've ever wanted to get the next level in a MMORPG, to the point where it does not matter if you're having fun, you've been influenced this way before.   What you're basically saying here is you'd like to mutilate anyone who gets wishy washy over phat lootz or mad xp.  

Heh, damn eBayers.  That's another big can of worms, you know, and sort of ties into this discussion is that it is direct proof that there are people who would take real life money and spend it in a purely virtual endeavor, indicating beyond all doubt they feel it matters "in the grand scheme of things".    Project Entropia is built for people who DV would like to see tortured.   (In that particular case, I'd be inclined to agree, for reasons having to do with disliking real money influencing a virtual environment.)

That I'm talking and it automatically becomes the Geldon Show, a show of pratfalling and general mockery, is one of the main reasons F13 isn't the best sounding board for me.   It colors the expectations of what I have to say to the point where many would not to see the value in it.    I sort of appreciate the challenge, but it seems insurmountable at times – the audience seems to get what it expects regardless of what's actually happening.   If Steve Martin were to step up to the comedy club stage and start talking about politics, some people are going to laugh regardless of what he's saying.

Go somewhere else and post your drivel then.

I've certainly been tempted at times.   I do apologize, you're probably just saying that because I'm in total defensive wet blanket mode which totally lacks teh funney and makes reading these boards about as enjoyable as cleaning grout from your bathroom tiles.  (Granted, the grout can put up a pretty good fight sometimes.)

So, lets try to keep the topic here about something other than me for a change, and I promise not to be a self defensive twat in return.  If you want to know that much about me you can always read my blog, where I didn't spare any saucy details of my tremendous struggles with inadequacy.

I know this is on a World of Warcraft forum, so lemme stress right here that a large part of my point is that World of Warcraft is fun on it's own, even when you get past the achiever mechanics.   I particularly like how different the gameplay is for most of the different classes.  (A Mage and a Priest don't play all that differently, but there's a world of difference between one of those and a Rogue, Druid or Warrior.)   The quests provide context to the grind, which is important because it further distances you from simply grinding away.    The streamlined mechanics are the good kind of streamlining, not the "OMG they amputated the game!" kind of streamlining you'll see in Deus Ex: Invisible War.   I'm still somewhat boggled somebody'd be tempted to drop WoW for UO, even factoring in familiarity and dividing by not feeling a part of WoW.

The "buyers" fall into the category of "pathetic", but the "sellers" are doing things that matter quite a bit in the real world. I have a friend who's made thousands from the time he started UO until now. Enough to help buy a new car for his wife, as well as plenty of other nice things.

Whats pathetic about spending money on something you enjoy? I've never had a reason to do it but I can see why someone would. If you hit level 40 in WoW and only have 50 gold but really want your mount. Maybe its worth 50 bucks to you to get it. For some people thats only an hour of work.

Spending 50 bucks to get some credits isn't pathetic, I agree. In some ways, it's probably the wiser thing to do. Spending thousands of dollars (as opposed to making thousands) is a different story.

Details aside, the only point I'm trying to make is that at least one archetype still matters "in the grand scheme of things". Granted, it's not one of Bartle's archetypes, and was only meant as a joke, but still..They are a reality, with their own unique goals and whatnot.

Anyways....





You give superficial reasons to argue in the favor of WoW (graphics, individual class mechanics, etc.) when we don't favor it for fundamental reasons. In Windup's case, he never liked the EQ/Diku design in the first place, and no matter how many embellishments are made to it, he still won't like it. He likes UO for entirely different reasons beyond the superficial ones. If you want to understand his decision, then you'd have to start there.

Me? I'd welcome a few more UO or AC knockoffs myself. Better yet, something new.

Time is money.

Sure, instead of buying that mount you could grind for it in-game - but time is money - you could use that in-game time to make money in real life. And, instead of making money online to get your wife a car you could use that time to earn more money doing something else.

If you are a contractor who makes $100 an hour and can bill for whatever hours you want, paying $50 for a WoW mount is more cost effective than playing the game for it, if you would have spent that time working instead.

It's all just balancing opportunity cost. Maybe I want a mount but I only get to play a couple hours a week and also want to read a book from time to time...to each his own.

Both the buying and the selling can make sense in the right situation. (Not that I advocate either)

For me, classes are just "blah" by definition.  A simple and artificial mechanic for maintaining character balance.  That's all well and good for keeping things running smoothly in a tabletop game being played in 1979, but in a multi-million dollar MMOG I don't like to be told that a mage can NEVER use a sword, even if he were willing to dedicate his life to it.

I've never had the patience to play more than one character anyway.  I'll admit this is a pretty uncommon quirk on my part, but UO happens to accomodate it by letting me drastically alter my character.  I can drop Chivalry to begin learning Necromancy, and as long as I keep my Swordsmanship and Healing skills, I'll be at least somewhat viable the whole time.



The WoW quest system is quite good, and maintained my interest for a while, whereas other games with similar mechanics either repelled me in mere days or didn't compel me to pick up the box at all.



WoW is by far the best and most player-friendly game of it's type, I'll give it that much.



When it comes to these games, I'm the antithesis of the acheiver.  I'm the MMOG slacker.  Level games just are not for me.

Why is it always about quiting one game and going on to the next or back to the game you left?   Is there a reason why people can't play and enjoy two different games?   Is $15 all that stands between them and bankruptycy each month?!?  Do you eat the same thing every day and only watch one TV show or movie?

I've been playing UO for a few years and have tried several other MMORPG's.  I quit playing Horizons and Lineage II after a month or two, not to return to UO (which I never left), but because those games really sucked.   I am now playing WoW and while I'm currently playing it more than UO, I still enjoy both games and don't plan on quitting either one.  They actually are different enough that they complement each other fairly well.

UO is very open-ended and is a real persistent world which you become part of.  It has housing, player vendors and a real economy.  Unfortunately the graphics are only slightly better than what you would have found on a Commodore 64 twenty years ago and there isn't much in the way of predefined content or quests for those who like those things.  A total client overhaul would really do wonders for this game.

WoW on the other hand is extremely linear with it's content and quests and really isn't a persistent world at all (you can't even drop something on the ground, let alone build a house), nor does it have much of an economy (how can you when 99% of the items bind to a player).  That doesn't stop it from being an extremely good game though which is worthy of anyones $15 per month.   WoW could really benefit from having player owned housing...as long as the Blizzard dev team doesn't implement a system to make decorations and furniture 'housebound'.

Anyway, for now I'll keep spending my $27.98 per month and I'll continue to enjoy two great games.

$15 a fucking month for a game you aren't playing is a silly expense to have to justify.

I never said anyone should pay $15 a fucking month for a game they aren't playing.  In fact, your response has nothing to do with what you quoted.  I asked if there was "a reason why people can't PLAY and enjoy two different games?"...and if they do actively play both games, why not pay for both?

Then there's that little-explored third category...  Those who would like to play a second game casually for less than $15/month.  Such as my wife, who plays about 10% as often as I do.  It's kind of hard to justify spending $30/month for 2 accounts in multiple games, just so that she can hop on for 2 hours per week when the planets align and she suddenly says "Let's play DAOC!".

Could one of these games try a time-limited "casual" subscription option already?  Give me 30 hours for $5/month, and add a little alarm gadget to let me know where my time stands.  Will EQ2 or WoW do it? Of course not, if they have boxes flying off the shelves.  Should some of the second-tier games try this?  Hell yes, if their choice is between $5/month and $0.

I agree with Fist. I see nothing wrong with subscribing to more than one game. Surely you have more than one magazine subscription or subscribe to more than one premium cable channel?

However, I do think people feel compelled to play their current game whenever it's "game time". How many people actually play other games when they are "involved" with their current MMO? (Schild excluded). (And not counting when your freakin' world server is down (damn you, Icecrown!)). I haven't even installed Vampires yet or touched Links! since WoW came out.

Still, if you feel more casual with your MMOs there's no reason whatsoever that you can't spend $30/month on two games. When Guild Wars comes out I probably will play it and WoW - but we'll see.

Of course, if that extra $15 does really break the bank for you, then yes you have a tough decision on which game to play this month. Good luck! :)

The issue is 'actively play'.  Especially given the timesink nature of many of these games, many people feel... 'bad' about paying for a game that they don't play whenever they have free time.  Look at it this way: If you play an hour every other day, your time in game costs $1/hr.  If you play an hour every day, the game costs you 50 cents/hr.  Since time in-game is directly proportional to power in-game, playing more makes your accomplishments less expensive.

If you play 2 subscription games, time spent not playing an MMOG costs you twice as much, since not only are you now paying 'more' for your achievements in gameA, your paying more for gameB as well.  Thus you feel even More pressured to play an MMOG.  The more 'casual' you are, the worse it is.  If you're already paying $15/mo for a game you play 10 hours a month, or 20 hours a month...  If you want to play a second such game, you're now paying $30/mo, but you still have the same 10-20 hours each month to play.

Thus you're paying the same amount for gameA, when you only play half as much.

Alkiera

She plays 2 hours per week and that's not worth $15?  That works out to under $2 per hour which isn't bad as far as entertainment costs go.   Would any company think that $5 for 30 hours is reasonable?  For that price you can play an hour a day for 1/3 of what everyone else is paying.

Good lord, if you have to think of all this to see if your getting your 'moneys worth' out of a game, how can you enjoy it at all?!?  I pay for HBO, Showtime and Cinemax on my cable too and don't calculate every minute I spend watching each channel.  Why should I bother going thru such effort if I want to play a couple MMO's.

I guess that's what's sort of nice about UO...you can have a 'finished' character and at that point you can play at your leisure and don't have to worry about leveling or obsessing about whether other players are getting ahead of you.   What happens with WoW remains to be seen, however I hope they keep the level cap at 60 and don't give in to all the whining 'powergamers' who are crying now that they already hit the cap and don't know how to continue enjoying the game if they can't level.   A level 60 char in WoW should be considered the same as a 7x (or 5x) GM char in UO.  You can still tweak the char and have fun questing/adventuring with friends and guildmates and if you become bored with that....start another character.

Sure, we could discuss the number of hours and the price.  How about just selling 5-hour chunks for $2?  Whatever floats your marketing boat.  The game provider can figure out the average number of hours per month per player, and establish the average price per hour, then go from there.  The hardcore players would always choose the unlimited option, and the casual players would have a choice.

My wife and I are not unusual.  Most of my gaming friends only subscribe to one game at a time, and most will cite the cost of maintaining multiple subscriptions when mainly playing one game.  What's better from a marketing perspective, a casual gamer, or a customer of your competitor?

Games are not traditionally subscription venues. When you pay your cable bill, you may only watch 1 or 2 hours of TV a night if that. Games, especially MMOG's, require not only more active participation, for some reason, MMOG's have decided that you must spend X amount of time in the game doing repetitive shit just to get the nice tasty cheese. Oh and if you want to play with your friends, you better be able to keep up with them. In a guild? Keep up with the guild achievement curve as well as keeping up with the guild activities. If you don't play, you are at a constant disadvantage, either in competitive activities like PVP or just in being of a level that allows you to group with your friends. Thus, you must play at least as much as your most active social circle's most active member. Now, try to keep up a similar social circle in another MMOG without getting behind on your first MMOG. And pay for the privilege.

Current MMOG's aren't games, they are lifestyle choices. Thus, if you are participating in that lifestyle, it's a bit hard to keep another, separate lifestyle active. And paying $15 a month two times over becomes a hard pill to swallow when you can only really put half the time into each.

If MMOG's didn't expect everyone to put in catass hardcore hours, it might be very easy to stay subbed to two different MMOG's and stay active in both. But that isn't the way things are, and that's why most rational folk will only pay for one at a time.

Good points.  This is a rare glimpse of sanity in this pissing match.  The two games do have their separate strengths.



I'd take issue with this assertation though.  99% soulbound is way too high an estimate.  The bind on equip model seems to me as simply a poor man's item degradation.  Sooner or later the item will be useless because you've outleveled it, but it won't break unexpectedly ala Shadowbane.  It also keeps the economy from being flooded with castoff (and free to the recipient) lowbie weapons that people are hoarding for their twinks and guildmates.

UO's economy just feels more "homegrown" given the lack of such facilities as the auction house and city trade channels, but I think UO could take a hint from WoW actually in this regard.  Removing the capability for scams and so forth is a big plus, not to mention the offline game of being able to leave your goods up on auction while you're logged out (though player vendors in UO are similar but without the bidding process).

I disagree that anyone rational would pay $15 for a MMOG to begin with.

Point conceded.

Well, that's true for most of the games, but if you read my other post you'll see that's also one of the reasons that UO works well as a 'second MMO'.  Once you've developed a character or two you can enjoy the game without leveling or worrying that your getting left behind by everyone else if you skip a day or two of playing.   What happens with WoW remains to be seen, but I hope they choose a path of introducing content for finished/developed chars (lev 60) rather than the EQ method of just moving the carrot further away with each expansion.  Right now I'm probably playing WoW about 90% of the time, but I still enjoy logging into UO a couple times a week and doing something other than leveling.

I think City of Heroes went farther then most on the point of friends outlevelling each other. It didnt go far enough, but at least tried.

All future games need to consider some way to sidekick and exemplar. It CAN be done, just plan for it from the start.

I am tired of my friends outlevelling me, or me outlevelling them, just because we dont have the exact same playtime and quests completed. Dont worry about what is realistic or might spoil content. I'll decide if I want to spoil content for myself. It's a problem, so just fix it.

Perhaps a good solution (if one is even needed) would be to offer a service where a soulbound item is unbound.  This could be either thru an NPC or automatic when a soulbound item is put up for auction.  Price could be like 50% or even the same price as an NPC vendor would pay for the item.

If you look at quest items there is no level requirement, those would have to continue to be soulbound no matter what or you will get the character twinking that was so popular in the early days of EQ.

I like the soulbinding system myself.  It really does cut down on the hoarding and keeps the economy moving well.  At higher levels I suspect the emphasis will be on player generated equipment.  At the lower levels it is all about drops and quest items.  I do not see an issue.

I've found that WoW's system isn't as good as CoH in this respect, but it is doable.  You can have higher level characters help lower level characters with quests pretty easily to help them catch up.  Since there isn't much experience (at normal rest condition) for killing creatures, you can breeze through lots of quests to gain levels quickly.

I even go help my higher level friend with quests/instances just to get the experience and nice drops.  If you aren't too worried about levels, exp gain, etc. you can still group up with your friends and have fun.  I've been doing that a lot lately.

One idea I've been tossing around in my head is for bind on equip items to be bound to an account instead of a character. That way you can build the perfect twink equips for certain levels for multiple characters. I know this wouldn't do much for most, but I personally love making alts and twinking. You can still twink in WoW, it just burns the gear every char.

Are you a Blizzard developer? If not, it's really an idea you've been tossing off in your head.

Wow! Post explosion.

First of all, if you are getting instant fun from the game, then it is worth the subscription fee; however, work is not something to which you should pay to subscribe. The nice thing about the aforementioned cable subscriptions is that you get instant gratification. When you turn on the movie or series on HBO, etc., you know immediately what you are getting. Good entertainment (yes, some movies and shows suck, I know) is a given and you have far more options available in terms of entertainment programming. With MMOG subscriptions, you have a few options: kill, quest, explore, craft, trade. Add to that the fact that several of those options absolutely suck in terms of fun and engaging activities and you are paying for a lot of nothing. Don't get me wrong, I'm a graphics whore myself so I usually pay at least once to see the goods.

To clear up some possible avenues of attack from the cheap seats and my having to climb up and beat your ass to a pulp, let me state that I have and do subscribe to MMOGs. Those subscriptions will soon expire (part of the New Year resolution list), but I am still found wanting and irrational due to my past transgressions. So be it. Thanks to Six Feet Under, I will continue to subscribe to cable television and HBO. Thanks to every MMOG on the market, I don't feel that much loss at not spending monthly fees on them.

Semantics.

That's what Bit Torrent is for.  Sure, the dying star place is gone, but it wasn't the only torrent collector on the net.


Indeed, and understandable.

Alkiera

Six Feet Under and The Soprano's are pretty much the only reason I have HBO too...unfortunately my cable company requires me to have Showtime in order to get HBO and once you reach that  point it's only another $3 or so to have Cinemax and TMC so I wound up with those too.  The $28 I pay for my two MMORPG subscriptions isn't much compared to the $130 I fork over to the gd cable comany.  btw: I remember reading somewhere that the next season of Six Feet Under will be the last. :-(

I don't think you can simplify MMORPG's as "kill, quest, explore, craft, trade" either...it's still a lot better than passively viewing the crap on TV lately (with the two exceptions noted above and maybe 2 or 3 other shows).

Don't forget Deadwood. That show pwns me and then some.   Just watched the first two episodes again last night.  God, it's even better the second time.

I've been a McShane fan since he first played Lovejoy. He's outdone himself in Deadwood though. The fact that it's also a great production made it my TV favorite of last year. For the sake of storytelling, there are a few historical flaws, but fewer than previous TV treatments of this material.

Cocksuckers.

He just completely makes the show.  From how much of an evil, antagonistic cocksucker he was in the first few shows (wife really hated him), he really became and interesting and multi-faceted cocksucker towards the end of the first season (wife loves him now).  He's funny as hell too. I have a feeling it's all going to end up very bad for him (given the actual historical context) and he's going to lose out to that evil Cy cocksucker and various other more sinister parties.  He's a good guy and a complete scum wad at the same time.  

This next season just can't arrive fast enough. I think other than new episodes of Lost, I haven't looked forward to anything this much on TV. Cocksuckers.

I think the error in logic that you are making is that instant gratification is the only valid form of fun.  Some people like to work toward a goal, and they find it fun overall if not necessarily fun at a given instant in time.  Hence the non-intuitive, but genre-making idea of paying to work. Of course, that's has also been called "masochism".

Sidebar: in that light, the new Bartle types are:
Masochist
Asshole
Windbag
Sploiter
Which map to which "classic" type is an exercise for the reader.  

But to return to the point, they are all valid playstyles.  What's fun for me isn't necessarily fun for you.

I do not make errors in logic.

I'll give you all one guess which one I am.

Masochist?  

If yes... oh! You kinky boy, you!

We have to pick just one?

I think I'm a combination, asshole/masochist with maybe a touch of sploiter.

Wow, I guess I should consider myself lucky no one picked Windbag, which I thought was a shoe-in.

Well, I was going to put you down as a windbag/masochist. I mean, you did resub to Dark Age afterall.

Asshole Masochist... alone each might be a little amusing, but together it's kind of scary.

100% Sploiter

The masochists don't want you to say sorry after you fuck them.

(Edit: you can edit, but you can't hide)

Heh

New Years Resolution: Try to be a better Asshole.

You just made my entire day. Thank you.

I'd use this for a sig, but, unfortunately, it doesn't tie into my furniture theme.

Insanity doesn't need a theme. I'd say go for the gusto.

I mulled over keeping my WoW account open, but shit.  Even when it was my only MMO, I still had a hard time keeping up with my catass acquaintances/guildmates.

What does that have to do with furniture?  You're off topic.

I'd love to have a pre-pub 16 UO back and would choose it over any modern game.

I'm goal oriented and don't mind hard work... at WORK!  Fuck that shit in my free time.

The only thing that makes me think he is an EA shill is that he likes AOS-era UO.  Other than that, I can totally understand where he is coming from.

He's not a shill for EA.

Edit: Hebrew isn't hard.

That only mattes for lameass timesink games, which all mmogs seem to be these days.  I'd like to see how much a champion-player Counterstrike account goes for on ebay.  Probably nothing, since that is what it is worth.

If you pay money for advancement in a game, it's not much of a game.  Any part of a game that people would pay real-life money to skip is a part of the game that shouldn't be included in the finished product.

I have to call bullshit here.  Yes, UO graphics are dated.  However, they are VERY well done for their time and format.  If UO graphics suck so bad, how is it that none of the expansions after T2A managed to come close to those of the original?

Heh, I can comfortably let people stand in and defend UO for a LOT of what it did. But it's graphics were total shit through and through. The graphics in the original Metroid were far better. Hell, the graphics in Pinball for Nintendo were better.

This isn't really a direction the conversation should go and it's also not part of UO that deserves being defended.

"Masochist" is a much more accurate term than "achiever".

Just because you couldn't jizz over some shitty, 3D abomination in UO 1997, like you might have in other games, does not mean those 2D graphics are bad.  I think they look better than most of the 3D mmogs we've seen.

shill   Audio pronunciation of "shill" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (shl) Slang
n.

    One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.


v. shilled, shill·ing, shills
v. intr.

    To act as a shill.


v. tr.

   1. To act as a shill for (a deceitful enterprise).
   2. To lure (a person) into a swindle.


Edit: dictionaries aren't hard.

Did I miss something? What the hell are you quoting a dictionary for?

The games I've played most lately are UO, Birth of the Federation, a wee bit of Diablo 2, and some Superpower.  I don't own a PS2.  I don't own an Xbox.  I don't give a flying shit about, nor have I ever played, anything related to Half-Life or Halo.  My NES stayed in service later than my PS1, and I'm convinced the world got just a little worse when the Commodore 64 died.

10 FOR N=1 TO 10
20 PRINT "FUCK YOU TOO, ARNOLD!"
30 NEXT N

If you want to trade reduced featuresets for more shiny, go ahead and play Everquest with the other crack-monkies.  I'll take the ugly outdated tottering old whore of a game that lets me build a house tile-by-tile and doesn't make me grind for six months just to buy a goddamn horse.

I don't pay $28 per month for an MMOG, nor do I pay $130 per month for cable. Quotes are not hard, windbag, so take the time to slow down and fix them if you're going to do 18 replies in a row.

Note: I despise EQ.

With that out of the way, SimCity let's you build things tile-by-tile as well if that's what turns you on. I can provide a list of many other games that allow you to perform that terribly scintillating activity if you so wish. ;)

I think he was trying to fit one more post into his marathon posting streak.

By that definition, Windup isn't a PAID shill. Which is just that much more sad.

UO's graphics looked dated in 1997. Surprise, they WERE dated in 1997, because they were from Ultima 7, which was released in the early fucking 90's. They were great when SVGA still required you to setup DOS VESA drivers. 1997... not so much. I think UO's later expansion graphics sucked even more monkey cock is because no one does 2d icon art anymore, at least not for games. UO can be defended for lots of things, but the graphics should not be included in that.

Agreed.  I love UO and still play a few times a week, but I've actually played Commodore 64 games which were more visually appealing.  I hate to say it, but without a MAJOR client overhaul in the next year, UO is doomed.

The OSI remnant that maintains the game supposedly has some sooper seekrit project underway that they'll reveal soon, and there's been persistent noise about a 3D client that doesn't suck ass, but looking at historical precedent, it'll probably turn out to be a brand new MMO that'll get cancelled halfway into development.

Or a revelation that they will cannibalize features from the aforementioned cancelled title and implement them into UO. That was the very basis for Lord Blackthorne's Revenge, which single-handedly pissed on any remaining shreds dignity UO had left at the time.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

Many faithful UO gamers have not upgraded their hardware to run something like an EQ2 or the like.

It is difficult to imagine for those of us that stay ahead of the average on PC hardware, but many people like UO because they haven't been forced to get a gig of RAM or the latest video card. Force a new fully 3D upgrade on them, and risk losing them as customers.

We can say "get with the times, upgrade your PC" or they can just go to a player run server and not have to....for free.

My bet is that the new secret project never sees the store shelves, for mainly other reasons but also because of this reason.

This arguement only goes so far...you can't continue to cater to people who are still running 10 year old machines if you want to move forward with a product.  While I'm not really for an update which would have ridiculous system requirements like EQ2 does, there's nothing wrong with requiring someone to have a halfway decent PC that was purchased within the past  few years.   For example, WoW's system requirements are extremely reasonable....

# 800 MHz or higher CPU
# 256 MB or more of RAM
# 32 MB 3D graphics card with hardware transform and lighting, such as GeForce 2 or better
# 4 GB or more of available hard drive space
# DirectX® 9.0c or above
# A 56k or higher modem with an Internet connection

I don't believe it would be in EA/UO's best interests to accomodate anyone with a system less powerful than this.

I agree, mostly. However there are other factors involved, such as how well the game will sell and gain NEW customers against competitors.

The concerns are:
The current veteran subscriber base - how to not lose them, because they are the only thing keeping UO alive right now.

How to appeal to new players with a new revamped game, while keeping all the veterans and their possessions intact.

How to appeal to new gamers, who dont want to join a game where people are already castle owners and multimillionaires. They would have to draw in and retain a lot of people to make this worth it.

How to smoothly upgrade UO's homes and many thousands of items into a 3D game without collosal problems. Imagine the housing in SWG, except 10 times more dense. A house behind every tree. You want a 3D game like that? What about chests with 100+ items in them, stacked.

Making the engine and game be one of the easier running ones out there, like City of Heroes. Not like the slide show graphics monsters that require the absolute best video card.

Do this with experience talent. A lot of OSI's best talent fled already. Who remains that can do this monumental challenge, and do it seamlessly? What you have there are people that *maintain*, not really on the cutting edge of engine coding.

Personally, I dont ever see this huge task being done on time and actually working. Taking UO from 2D/3D to a fully brand new 3D engine is one of the biggest tasks in modern gaming. It wont ship.

You don't have to take it all the way to a 3d EQ/WoW type client/interface, in fact, I would really prefer they kept some sort of isometric 3d view rather than switch to a FPS view.  They need to have a high quality client, but need to set themselves apart from being just another EQ/WoW/DoaC clone.  Maybe they could keep the same type of view we currently have, but implement some things in true FPS 3d....like when you walk into a house have an option to view it in 3d...or maybe throw in some 3D dungeons.  That would free them up from having to render the house cluttered above ground areas in true 3d.

btw: The UO dev staff is not just a bunch of maintence coders.  They actually have some pretty good talent in place there now.

Regarding UO's graphics:  I like the game, but graphics have never mattered to me.  They're a detriment, but one I can personally tolerate pretty well.  That said, they've really done a shit job with them in recent years.  UO3D looks like refried ass, and some 2D monsters were inexplicably replaced with sprites based on scans of those crapful 3D graphics.  A daemon in UO today looks worse than it did in 1997.  A lot of other things look like shit, and there was a rather embarassing thread on Stratics where amateurs were taking items from UO and redoing them far better.  An old engine is one thing, but EA can't even seem to find people who know how to draw.

Anyway, a WoW/EQ style client may be asking too much, but I'll settle for a version of UO3D that doesn't look like a turd on a stick.

Agreed...not only does the 3d client look like a turd on a stick, but it performs like shit when compared to the 2d client and there's absolutely no excuse for that...given todays hardware and graphics card the 3d client should actually be able to outperform the 2d client.   I also can tolerate the crappy graphics because I happen to still really enjoy the game and believe that content is more important than a fancy wrapper.  My main reason for wanting to see a graphics overhaul is because I want to see the game survive and I don't believe it can much longer in its current state.

UO still is one of the best games out there in terms of gameplay and enjoyment. Regardless of graphics and engine age, it is a great game.

We all know this. We are gamers.

EA execs dont know about this, nor do they care. They care about numbers on charts. Being the difficult and complex task that it is, taking UO from 2D to complete 3D in an EA world simply will not float. From a technical standpoint, it is a hard thing to do. It will most certainly go overbudget.

To us it is justified. But the execs looking at charts make that call. They could make just as much money putting that headcount on some brainless crap console game, and have it ship way sooner and with less hassle.

Too bad that the hardcore gamers know that enough people are tired of the same old MMOGs that they would be willing to return to a truly well made 3D UO world. Take the same quality from UO and put it into something perhaps using a *modified* Warcraft 3 engine.

*An Corp*

Perhaps Blizzard will let EA license their WoW engine. Then all the roleplayers will have their orcs, elves and undead (and tauren and dwarves and gnomes).  Even more $$$ for Blizzard, new gfx-engine for UO players, renewed income for EA. Huzzah! *throws his bandana in the air*

One of the best things about UO is that it wasn't 3d. 3d graphics set the graphical world back by a decade. We went from detailed sprites to bland and primitive polygons. Only with the advent of games like HL2 are 3d graphics worth putting into a game.

I wish UO2 or the upgrade or whatever plan they will abort was based on even better, high-res sprites. Keep the isometric view, keep the 2d art. It's good stuff.

Or go with the herd and make it first-person in 3d. *yawn*

New art won't bring me back to UO, a game I still consider, in it's earlier forms, to be the height of the mmorpg genre. I've done everything I wanted to do, played it for years. What they need to do is put out a new game, hopefully based on 2d art as I outlined, sometime in this decade. It's got to be getting harder to justify staying with the ancient cobbled-over-the-years engine year after year.

I agree with Sky, but they will continue to be there as long as they continue to do well in Asia.  I hear that is what is keeping their numbers at 100k or so.

UO is good, then, now, and probably in the future.  However, it is old and I've done it.  I've resubbed and tried it again.  I just can't get excited for it anymore no matter how many ninjas they add to it.

They need to start with a new lore and mythos.  Keep all the other and just switch things around a bit or something.  I do agree that 2d vs. 3d isn't everything, but damn they sure could make UO 2d a lot better than it is.  Even with a new graphics design they could jump into this decade and do higher res 2D stuff and look a hell of a lot better.