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Title: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 12, 2009, 08:08:34 PM making me do onyxia again?!
Quote She has lurked in her lair and done battle with the many brave adventurers who travelled to that familiar location over the years. Now, in honor of the World of Warcraft 5-year anniversary, the dreaded brood mother Onyxia is being revamped to make a return to the forefront of Azeroth, as part of our big plans for the upcoming 3.2.2 content patch. This permanent update to Onyxia will convert the dungeon into 10- and 25-player modes. We will be adding new items to Onyxia’s loot table that have the same model as some of the classic loot from this dungeon, like Tier 2 helms, with stats updated to match the current level of content. There will be a special new item too: a normal drake-sized 310% speed flying mount modeled after Onyxia herself called an Onyxia Broodling. We will also be updating the encounter mechanics to be more fitting for modern raiding, but we can guarantee players will get to experience the frightening horror of deep breaths once again. Then for a limited time, after the 5-year anniversary event officially begins in November, anybody who logs in will receive an Onyxia Brood Whelpling pet. We’re very excited to bring this classic encounter back to provide a fun new experience for both new and veteran players. Further details will be available in the near future, and we will be setting up the Public Test Realms soon to help test out this fight along with all the new content we have planned for the patch. Keep an eye on the forums for updates! Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Merusk on August 12, 2009, 08:10:06 PM :oh_i_see:
Fucking whelps. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: AutomaticZen on August 12, 2009, 08:17:18 PM THE HORROR!!!! THE HORRORRRRRRRR!!!
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: schild on August 12, 2009, 08:18:08 PM Yea, recycling content IS classic.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 12, 2009, 08:22:05 PM Hm, paladins will finally be able to keep wearing Judgement.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 12, 2009, 09:16:41 PM I am excited for this! I never killed her at 60. :grin:
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Lakov_Sanite on August 12, 2009, 09:21:07 PM in defense of this, it's not even a major patch so i wouldn't call it content. it's just an extra raid boss/encounter they want to add for fun and nostalgia. 5 years?! jesus christ....i cant believe im still playing this game.
In opposition, fuck you onyxia....fuck you. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Lantyssa on August 12, 2009, 09:44:57 PM Damn. I might even be 80 by then. I can catass for a fast mount, too!
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: schild on August 12, 2009, 10:05:00 PM in defense of this, it's not even a major patch so i wouldn't call it content. it's just an extra raid boss/encounter they want to add for fun and nostalgia. Oh, I see the difference. :oh_i_see: Quote 5 years?! jesus christ....i cant believe im still playing this game. Neither can I. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Rasix on August 12, 2009, 10:13:41 PM Damn. I might even be 80 by then. I can catass for a fast mount, too! Good luck winning the roll on the .5% chance to drop mount. Heh, Onyxia. Yay, a fight I did half a hundred times. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ratman_tf on August 12, 2009, 10:21:50 PM Hogger should be next.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 12, 2009, 10:28:42 PM One of the awesomest raids ever. To attest to this, it took EJ nerds like three years to finally figure out the mechanic behind her. This bitch was still killing overgeared people well after her loot was worthless. I have a friend, who despite me explaining it many multitudes of times and normally being a rational man and good player, never even got it. Although I think his main problem was panning the camera up to see where she was while healing at the same time.
If you ever feel like you need to expose your raids' dumbasses, this is the encounter that will help you do it. More dots. Many whelps. Handle it. 50 Minus DKP, etc. It would be even more awesome if they resurrect the Quel'Serrar. My guild made boatloads selling slots to get people that sword. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 12, 2009, 10:49:24 PM I hear she'll deep breath more this patch.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 12, 2009, 10:52:24 PM Haha. That rumor was so pervasive, I actually started to believe it was possible.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 12, 2009, 10:54:34 PM Haha. That rumor was so pervasive, I actually started to believe it was possible. At some point the temptation to actually fuck with her scripts to change it would have been too tempting for me. Just for like, two hours, change the rules on deep breath and change it back so whoever ran it looked absolutely insane on the forums. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Azaroth on August 12, 2009, 10:54:49 PM How outdated is my full BiS Naxx 25 Ret right now?
I can't imagine having quit five months ago would leave me anywhere near respectable, but this kind of thing (while it SHOULDN'T) is sort of catching my interest. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Fordel on August 12, 2009, 11:14:29 PM How outdated is my full BiS Naxx 25 Ret right now? I can't imagine having quit five months ago would leave me anywhere near respectable, but this kind of thing (while it SHOULDN'T) is sort of catching my interest. You would be fine unless your goal is super poop-sock guild. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Rendakor on August 12, 2009, 11:25:41 PM Yay. More recycled content. :oh_i_see:
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ceryse on August 12, 2009, 11:42:34 PM Haha. That rumor was so pervasive, I actually started to believe it was possible. Except it actually happened. Well after the rumour and claims had started there was a patch that somehow caused her to deep breath more; it was quickly hot-fixed with (I believe) Tigole making some comment about the humour of it. It was so long ago I barely remember it, but I do remember my guild talking about the hotfix and how it actually happened, yet well after Onyxia mattered in terms of difficulty to just about anyone. On a sad note I don't think my abandoned (I quit the game over a year ago) level 70 Shammy could get her down to <20% now. I think that's the only regret I have about leaving the game, though I'm not sure I would have ever managed to kill her. I'm glad I barely keep track of the game now, though.. the incoming minus DKP crap when Onyxia is revamped would be very annoying. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Paelos on August 12, 2009, 11:48:35 PM Funny, the Onyxia kill legitimized our silly alliance of little guilds that had been hemorrhaging members to the raiding societies. Four years later I look back at her with a kind of nostalgia as the run that convinced me to be a raid leader.
That said, I'm not at all eager to see her rise from the grave. Some things are better left alone (like everything about MC). Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 12, 2009, 11:50:43 PM Haha. That rumor was so pervasive, I actually started to believe it was possible. Except it actually happened. Well after the rumour and claims had started there was a patch that somehow caused her to deep breath more; it was quickly hot-fixed with (I believe) Tigole making some comment about the humour of it. It was so long ago I barely remember it, but I do remember my guild talking about the hotfix and how it actually happened, yet well after Onyxia mattered in terms of difficulty to just about anyone. On a sad note I don't think my abandoned (I quit the game over a year ago) level 70 Shammy could get her down to <20% now. I think that's the only regret I have about leaving the game, though I'm not sure I would have ever managed to kill her. I'm glad I barely keep track of the game now, though.. the incoming minus DKP crap when Onyxia is revamped would be very annoying. Yea, I never believed they didn't actually do that on purpose, then say, "What me?" Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 12, 2009, 11:51:56 PM Funny, the Onyxia kill legitimized our silly alliance of little guilds that had been hemorrhaging members to the raiding societies. Four years later I look back at her with a kind of nostalgia as the run that convinced me to be a raid leader. That said, I'm not at all eager to see her rise from the grave. Some things are better left alone (like everything about MC). Nobody wants to see MC again. Nobody. And if there is a person-like entity that claims they do, it's not actually a person, just a person's misguided representative. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2009, 01:24:20 AM I am looking forward to everything about this except for the possibility that the redone Wrath helm will be something I want to wear. :ye_gods:
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Soln on August 13, 2009, 01:35:25 AM The Shark it is Jumped.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Triforcer on August 13, 2009, 01:57:44 AM If I was a WoW player, I'd want to go solo the old version for old time's sake. How many classes can actually do that at 80?
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Tale on August 13, 2009, 02:27:21 AM This is happening because if you're still playing WoW in 2009, you deserve to be sent back to 2004 where you belong.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Gobbeldygook on August 13, 2009, 02:30:31 AM If I was a WoW player, I'd want to go solo the old version for old time's sake. How many classes can actually do that at 80? She was soloable at 70 by the easy classes (paladin/druid). Every class can solo Onyxia now, although obviously it's a lot harder for some than others (rogues/mages).Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: SurfD on August 13, 2009, 03:27:31 AM I have to wonder however, how does this affect people who actually need to kill her for quest lines? Are you still going to be able to run her as a level 60, 40 man dungeon if you wanted to?
What happens to people who get a quel'serar book, or who want to kill her as part of the AQ gates opening quest line just to say they did it? Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 05:20:27 AM What happens to people who get a quel'serar book, or who want to kill her as part of the AQ gates opening quest line just to say they did it? Feats of strength. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Malakili on August 13, 2009, 06:02:07 AM I guarantee that this fight will be less fun as a level 80 raid than it is to solo or duo the level 60 fight at level 80.
Then again, I'm speaking as someone who doesn't raid anymore, but DID raid quite obsessively when Onyxia was cutting edge content. So to me, this seems pretty lame, but I can see why people who DIDN'T kill this bitch every 5 days for over a year would be excited. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Koyasha on August 13, 2009, 07:23:22 AM Not that I'm currently playing or think I'm going to play again anytime in the near future, but yeah. Double fuck you for removing things that are fun to do as they are now just to update it to another current raid.
One of the main things that kept me playing EQ for years and years was going back and defeating old raid bosses with less and less people as the expansions went by. They keep tearing out old stuff in WoW instead of adding to it, which seriously takes away one of my motivations for coming back. The 'hey, let's see if I can single-group the Avatar of War' effect. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Jayce on August 13, 2009, 07:25:03 AM You people are serious whiners. If you don't like "recycled" content, don't go. I'm looking forward to it personally. It's a quick raid with interesting mechanics, and I've often thought it's sort of sad that she's not relevant any more.
This was one of the first raids, if not THE first raid, that can take less than 30 minutes if you have it on farm. It was ahead of its time in the days of Molten Bore-athons. What's not to like? Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 07:26:14 AM It's going to be really funny to watch people wipe over and over again. The overall skill levels have really dropped in the last 5 years. I'd say that they'll "balance it lower" except that it's about doing 2 or 3 different things at once. The only way they'll make that fight not hard is if the whelps don't hurt at all and the fire on phase 3 does no damage.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Selby on August 13, 2009, 07:49:36 AM This was one of the first raids, if not THE first raid, that can take less than 30 minutes if you have it on farm. It was ahead of its time in the days of Molten Bore-athons. What's not to like? Exactly. Only 2 people in my guild were raiding at the time when she was relevant (me included) so our guild leader and many other people never got to experience the fun of whelps and deep breaths. I would enjoy it just for fun.Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 08:19:15 AM It's going to be really funny to watch people wipe over and over again. The overall skill levels have really dropped in the last 5 years. Back then casters stacked int, rogues didn't care about tohit, and most tanks didn't even know proper rotations beyond stack sunder, then stack some more. Geddon's bomb was an immense threat, several raid bosses were nothing more than tank'n'spanks, and +fireresist was the preferred way to victory. Also lolwepskill. Rose tinted glasses, they're awesome. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 08:44:08 AM Maybe in your guild, but that wasn't true in mine. As a rogue, I stacked to hit when possible. Casters stacked int because there was no +SP itemization. There was a lot less itemization choice.
Do you really think anyone has the skill these days to get through, say, Chromaggus? How about the whelp room? Sulfuron? The fights may have been arguably "cruder" but there was much, MUCH less room for error. Decurse everyone in the raid within 10 seconds or you wipe! The "top guild" on our server (which still contains some members that I used to play with, way back when) would be around 4th or 5th back in the day. Most of the 'hard core' crowd has since moved on to other challenges and the players that are left after 5 years aren't nearly as quick on their feet, are slow to improvise, and have to be told the same instructions week after week after week. Many of them fail at Raiding 101: stay out of the fire. Do you really think ANYONE in a MC/BWL raiding guild would have been hit by that hilariously telegraphed yeti charge? I don't think so. Yet, we almost wiped to it yesterday because a bunch of people fail at life. And we are basically the 4th best alliance guild on our server (one of the orig ones). Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Vash on August 13, 2009, 08:48:18 AM It's going to be really funny to watch people wipe over and over again. The overall skill levels have really dropped in the last 5 years. Back then casters stacked int, rogues didn't care about tohit, and most tanks didn't even know proper rotations beyond stack sunder, then stack some more. Geddon's bomb was an immense threat, several raid bosses were nothing more than tank'n'spanks, and +fireresist was the preferred way to victory. Also lolwepskill. Rose tinted glasses, they're awesome. Eh, maybe early early Ony. By the time BWL was leet raiding +spell dmg (and +healing) was everywhere and the go to stat for casters already. You had top guilds doing Speed clears of Molten Core in 2 hours. Healers had down ranking and highly coordinated rotations (hot's didn't stack :ye_gods:). A lot of dps classes weren't as complicated as they are today but that was simply because of the significantly more limited talents and spells. Not long after AQ came out mages were learning to roll ignites as an example of where skill could be applied once the fire immune cockblock was removed. There are similar examples for nearly every class. While the classes themselves may have been more simple in many cases the overall coordination and execution required just to kill a boss or even clear trash is on par with the most technical fights available in the current raid game. Only 10% or whatever of the playerbase ever got to experience that content for a reason, and those that did (other than select few who got carried by the 40 man raid size) were certainly not clueless simpletons who took advantage of weak boss design. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Dren on August 13, 2009, 08:51:14 AM Count me as one that never even did it. I didn't like the attunement requirement, so never accomplished it. Not even close.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 09:10:25 AM Maybe in your guild, but that wasn't true in mine. As a rogue, I stacked to hit when possible. Casters stacked int because there was no +SP itemization. There was a lot less itemization choice. Do you really think anyone has the skill these days to get through, say, Chromaggus? How about the whelp room? Sulfuron? The fights may have been arguably "cruder" but there was much, MUCH less room for error. Decurse everyone in the raid within 10 seconds or you wipe! The "top guild" on our server (which still contains some members that I used to play with, way back when) would be around 4th or 5th back in the day. Most of the 'hard core' crowd has since moved on to other challenges and the players that are left after 5 years aren't nearly as quick on their feet, are slow to improvise, and have to be told the same instructions week after week after week. Many of them fail at Raiding 101: stay out of the fire. Do you really think ANYONE in a MC/BWL raiding guild would have been hit by that hilariously telegraphed yeti charge? I don't think so. Yet, we almost wiped to it yesterday because a bunch of people fail at life. And we are basically the 4th best alliance guild on our server (one of the orig ones). Leet raiders back then were serious business, you say? Hm... I'll pretend for a second that you didn't talk about the general populace in the previous post. (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2006/12/sebspeakerwg2.jpg) Yeah, raiders were NINJAS back then, rite? Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 09:16:46 AM While a great picture, verbal abuse to your raiders doesn't refute any of my points...
Here's a simple one for you that I discovered recently - how many raiders even know HOW to assist, or do they just switch targets and start smacking the guy who everyone else is hitting? How many raids actually REQUIRE an assist, where the tank or the target you're supposed to kill switches quickly and you need to have coordinated DPS? You know, a core raiding skill "back in the day"? None. Not a single one. In fact, Emalon was so "hard", they had to change it so that they grow to gigantic proportions that that people would be able to click on it. Do you want to talk about tanking? How much easier it is? *Note that I am NOT pining for the old days, I'm fully in the "more people should be able to raid" platform. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Malakili on August 13, 2009, 09:23:46 AM Do you really think ANYONE in a MC/BWL raiding guild would have been hit by that hilariously telegraphed yeti charge? I don't think so. Yet, we almost wiped to it yesterday because a bunch of people fail at life. And we are basically the 4th best alliance guild on our server (one of the orig ones). We were the second best raiding guild on alliance back then for our server, and we carried a healthy amount of "bads" with us. In fact, some of our pre-BC raiders didn't "make the cut" so to speak, and we had to politely (as possible), say that we couldn't bring them to BC raids because they couldn't pull their wait. MC was a joke. It was the first raid ever, so it did have a bit of a learning curve, but you tune that place with level 80 hit points and damage, and most guilds would waltz through on their first week. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 09:40:51 AM While a great picture, verbal abuse to your raiders doesn't refute any of my points... Yeah, if you don't wanna read about how back then the leet raiders were just as retarded about positioning and removing debuffs as they are today... Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 09:51:26 AM But the difference is degree. Everyone makes mistakes, the question is how many people can you get to perform flawlessly for how long, and what happens when one slips.
To put it another way, just as an example: C'thun, eyebeam bounces to a person within 10 yards, doubling in damage each time. Any bounce after the 3rd is fatal. Can easily wipe the raid. Thorim, chain lightning bounces the same way. Increases by 50% each time. Max of 6 targets. Only the 6th bounce is fatal to only that person. Does not wipe the raid. Don't forget that getting 40 people to do something successfully is MUCH harder than only 25, in terms of guild logistics, personality conflicts, and a straight 'one person fucks up and wipes the raid'. Don't forget that factor as well. The difficulty was reduced to open it up to a wider raiding audience, and then reduced again because blizzard's internal testing team set the competence bar too high. It's really not a stretch to think that a majority of the people who were skilled enough to clear the pre-expansion content and who were doing naxx 40 (the 5 top raiding guilds on a server, basically) have since burned out and left the game, and 'late adopters' don't necessarily have the skills and reflexes of those aforementioned people? Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 13, 2009, 09:56:47 AM While a great picture, verbal abuse to your raiders doesn't refute any of my points... Yeah, if you don't wanna read about how back then the leet raiders were just as retarded about positioning and removing debuffs as they are today... Dude. You're just way off on this. He's right. I don't know about his point that 'all the good people have moved on.' But he's definitely right that things were much less forgiving back then. They have dumbed raiding down significantly, and I'm not complaining. But to say otherwise is crazy. Part of it is simply because communicating with 25 people is much easier than doing so with 40. Part of it is in reaction to how difficult they made the barrier to entry in the last expansion. But it's easier. And having been a raid leader in all three expansions, and seen the level of understanding in this one, I can tell you unequivocally that my 40 man raid would laugh at the 'top guilds' today. I don't think it's because they're not capable though. They just don't need to have the same level of accountability or coordination with each other. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 10:14:06 AM Why are you all relating your personal guild experiences when bhodi said "average skill level"?
You guys know that that included pugs and terribad guilds in the equation, right? That it also included the guilds that never got past vael, which were, hey, the majority? Those same guys that couldn't even get their mages and druids to decurse properly? If you wanna argue about how the creme de la creme back then was better than today, and somehow miraculously were all ninjas that made no mistakes, sure, we can do that, but then we won't be talking about average skill level. That the instances were far more cruel, though, I'll agree. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 10:23:46 AM Well, we're talking about raids, which immediately eliminates 90% of the player populace. Interesting that you misquote me, when what I actually said was "overall" not "average", and I specifically cited MC/BWL raiding guilds.
My entire point was that if you take a complex boss from the old world, buff his HP and damage correspondingly, there is no way a pug of today can handle it even though he was successfully pugged back in pre-expansion. This (my opinion) coupled with blizzard's ability to overestimate the competence of the player base means that I think on launch he is going to be a pug (and lesser guild) eating machine. Then, he'll be nerfed so his abilities will no longer be as brutal as they were when he first came out. His claws will be foam padded, he won't clear aggro when he lifts off, the whelps won't kill people in 2 or 3 hits, and the lava will be more like a warm bubble bath so that everyone can have a good time and collect their purples. That's all I was saying. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Xeyi on August 13, 2009, 10:27:07 AM Most raid bosses don't require a huge amount of coordination now, but some hard modes require it still. Freya +3 with Iron Roots, Lifebinder's Gift, adds that need to die simultaneously, adds that can't be allowed to die simultaneously, and the need to avoid being silenced by ground tremor. Missing any of these can mean a wipe by themselves.
Just about everything on normal is pretty forgiving. Yogg-Saron has a few instagib mechanics, but they are trivialised to an extent by Hodir's protective gaze. The hard modes really are a step up though. The old raids were much harder to progress in - really they were more like today's hard modes, with no easy/normal mode available. The difficulty is still there if you want it though. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 10:31:06 AM My english might be playing tricks on me, because, hey, chrono trigger and a dictionary taught me most of what I know about the language, but isn't overall, in that sentence, a synonym for average?
Honest question, btw. To me they're the same. My entire point was that if you take a complex boss from the old world, buff his HP and damage correspondingly, there is no way a pug of today can handle it even though he was successfully pugged back in pre-expansion. If by complex boss you mean complex raid boss, pugs of yesterday couldn't kill them either. Would a buffed Vael rape today's guilds? Fuck yeah. Vigorously. And heck, he wasn't even very complex. Buffed Razorgore? Massacre. Anything immune to taunt, with a threat roof? Bloodbath. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 13, 2009, 10:36:16 AM Back then casters stacked int, Healers still do :grin: Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 13, 2009, 10:38:01 AM . Decurse everyone in the raid within 10 seconds or you wipe! That had little to do with skill, and was pretty much the start of required raiding mods. Threat meters being the other highly desired one, but the debuff removal minigame was a punch in the dick with the base UI on a raid level. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Vash on August 13, 2009, 10:39:59 AM My entire point was that if you take a complex boss from the old world, buff his HP and damage correspondingly, there is no way a pug of today can handle it even though he was successfully pugged back in pre-expansion. This (my opinion) coupled with blizzard's ability to overestimate the competence of the player base means that I think on launch he is going to be a pug (and lesser guild) eating machine. Then, he'll be nerfed so his abilities will no longer be as brutal as they were when he first came out. His claws will be foam padded, he won't clear aggro when he lifts off, the whelps won't kill people in 2 or 3 hits, and the lava will be more like a warm bubble bath so that everyone can have a good time and collect their purples. That's all I was saying. Except it sounds like they're planning to redo the entire encounter, so other than deep breaths there's really no telling what mechanics the fight will have in it's new incarnation. Quote We will also be updating the encounter mechanics to be more fitting for modern raiding, but we can guarantee players will get to experience the frightening horror of deep breaths once again. I would be shocked if it's not fairly easy and very pug friendly, tbqh. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 10:50:14 AM That had little to do with skill, and was pretty much the start of required raiding mods. Threat meters being the other highly desired one, but the debuff removal minigame was a punch in the dick with the base UI on a raid level. I actually lump this in with skill. Knowing your character means knowing if you need to watch a debuff/buff means knowing common addons to assist you and make you better. I honestly don't know anyone who runs the default UI, even in terribad guilds.My english might be playing tricks on me, because, hey, chrono trigger and a dictionary taught me most of what I know about the language, but isn't overall, in that sentence, a synonym for average? In this context, it's vague enough that both apply. I'm somewhat of a stickler for people who don't know the difference between average, mean, and median and I found it funny that you just changed the word even though you put it in quotes :)I didn't know they were redoing the entire encounter, though if they use the same brush they painted naxx with, that means they'll keep everything the same except for adust the numbers, remove a trash pack and remove an ability or two. It MIGHT be pug friendly since I know Blizzard had a huge wakeup call when the ulduar kill/wipe numbers were wayyyyyyyyyyy out of line from their internal testing (hence the repeated nerfs) but god I hope not. I want people to cry bloody tears for their onyxia scales and epic mounts. At least for the first week or two. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Malakili on August 13, 2009, 11:15:51 AM . Decurse everyone in the raid within 10 seconds or you wipe! That had little to do with skill, and was pretty much the start of required raiding mods. Threat meters being the other highly desired one, but the debuff removal minigame was a punch in the dick with the base UI on a raid level. Still, it wasn't long after Blizzard did away with Decursive. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Jayce on August 13, 2009, 11:21:50 AM You guys know that that included pugs and terribad guilds in the equation, right? That it also included the guilds that never got past vael, *raises hand* Even so, we weren't the worst terribads. It just took some endurance to drag 40 people successfully through ZG and MC. We downed Vael but he broke the guild in the process. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 13, 2009, 11:27:28 AM Still, it wasn't long after Blizzard did away with Decursive. IIRC, they did that in 2006. Late 2006. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Vash on August 13, 2009, 11:43:55 AM Still, it wasn't long after Blizzard did away with Decursive. IIRC, they did that in 2006. Late 2006. They removed the ability for addons to automate things (aimed squarely at decursive) before AQ iirc, possibly sooner. Decursive was still around later as a debuff removal tool (still is today), but is little more than a simple click-cast gui mod after the change. I remember when it happened because priests who loved the mod that automatically refreshed Inner Fire whenever it dropped QQ'd rather prominently as it was broken in the same change. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2009, 11:47:10 AM You people are serious whiners. For real. This might as well be a WoW General forum topic, with better spelling. :oh_i_see: Quote Do you really think ANYONE in a MC/BWL raiding guild would have been hit by that hilariously telegraphed yeti charge? Probably about half of them. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 11:47:27 AM The other addon they deliberately broke at the same time (for healers) was the one that listed all raid members into a constantly changing list that was sorted by HP, making it very easy to raid heal.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 13, 2009, 11:53:29 AM I actually lump this in with skill. Knowing your character means knowing if you need to watch a debuff/buff means knowing common addons to assist you and make you better. I honestly don't know anyone who runs the default UI, even in terribad guilds. Hello, I am Sjofn! I use the default UI. And I tank! :ye_gods: Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: bhodi on August 13, 2009, 12:10:58 PM Hello, I am Sjofn! I use the default UI. And I tank! :ye_gods: Are you kidding? :ye_gods: you don't even use an omen threat meter type thing? What about deadly boss mods? wow.Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Rasix on August 13, 2009, 12:12:58 PM She didn't say she tanked "well". :why_so_serious:
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Musashi on August 13, 2009, 12:15:43 PM I think between the combination of much easier tanking, a larger hit point pool, and a probably simplified re-tuning, it will be a much easier encounter than it was before.
If Blizz decides to keep Ony's aggro dumping skillz, and make phase three aggro reacquisition crazy, I suspect there will be a lot of people who do what I just did, and go look up the old EJ thread. Fireballs indeed. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Nevermore on August 13, 2009, 12:21:27 PM Hello, I am Sjofn! I use the default UI. And I tank! :ye_gods: Are you kidding? :ye_gods: you don't even use an omen threat meter type thing? What about deadly boss mods? wow.I tank (sometimes) in the same guild and I don't use anything like that boss mods thing either. I have omen but I don't pay attention to it at all when I tank. I do look at it once in a blue moon when I dps though, but that's just to see how close I can get my bar to the tank's. :why_so_serious: Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2009, 12:22:15 PM It should be noted that it irritates me that we have tanks that don't use a boss mod. (I prefer BigWigs personally.)
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 13, 2009, 12:34:20 PM Hello, I am Sjofn! I use the default UI. And I tank! :ye_gods: Are you kidding? :ye_gods: you don't even use an omen threat meter type thing? What about deadly boss mods? wow.I used omen in TBC for other people's benefit, but not mine. I have not once felt like I needed it in this expansion either, and no one has asked me to install it, so I haven't. I don't use a boss mod (and, as Ingmar has said, it pisses HIM off I don't). It does mean I tank things like Grobbulus a little sloppier than Thorgrim does (the clouds are not always easy to see right away), but there's pretty much a warning SOMEWHERE on my screen to tell me when something I need to care about is about to happen (hell, I'm the one who calls when polarity is going to shift and shit in Naxx), and I pay attention. I do understand some classes need mods if for no other reason than quality of life (I would probably install some sort of new heal grid if I started healing raids for some reason, for example), I just don't really feel like I need 'em as a tank. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Malakili on August 13, 2009, 01:04:00 PM I just don't really feel like I need 'em as a tank. Its not just about "need" its about min maxing and taking as much chance out of the fight as possible. Boss mods, unit frames, cooldown timers, etc can really make you more efficient. It might not be the difference between a wipe and a boss kill every single time, but every 1 in 50 times it might be, and with 25 people in the raid, those little minor errors that mods can help with, really do make a difference. Granted, do what you want. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2009, 01:31:57 PM I'm still working on getting our enhancement shaman to not drop earth elemental totem in the middle of boss fights, making sure everyone always has an up to date boss mod is down the list a ways. In general I agree though, there's really no reason not to use one, given at this point they seem to design fights with the idea that you will use one in mind.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 13, 2009, 02:04:29 PM Even if not for convenience, why wouldn't you use addons to fix UI frames and such. The default blizzard bards and unit frames are terribly designed, and have a ton of unnecessary artwork which clutters the screen. Honestly, if MMO devs made FPS games we'd still be using a Wolf3D style interface.
I admittedly have stripped down the number of addons I use a lot. Now it's just Pitbull, Bartender, Grid, DBM and Coolline that I use. My grid dies the other night and I had to raid with the default blizzard raid frames and it was a truly unpleasant and disconcerting experience. The lack of range check, aggro checks, debuff warnings and tiny tiny health bars made my run very un-fun. DBM is also a massive help for things like Mimiron, where it's nice to know when Plasma Blast is coming. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 13, 2009, 02:30:14 PM Threatmeters are mostly not needed anymore, the base UI covers it relatively well (though it flakes about the difference between 100% and "you now have aggro"), and you don't need them installed to update everyone else's threat meters.
I'd never heal with the base UI again, but mostly because mouseover healing is so much love that it's crazy, no matter what healing UI you wind up using. Bossmods are nice, everyone should run them, and at the same time pretty much every fight in the game telegraphs attacks far better as well. But I adore the edge of screen dimming effect on boss mods when you have a "you need to be doing something right now and paying attention" debuff on you. edit: This all said, I do not consider "has good UI mod choices installed" to be "skill". Decursing the raid in MC was not a skill based fight, it was a piss your decursers off based fight. Which is likely why we don't see anymore "dispel the whole fucking raid RIGHT NOW" spam encounters. I consider that about as much a skill as a fight where your debuffs would appear on the upper left corner of the screen so only people who moved their party frame could complete the event. The game should never be Player vs UI, and there's no real skill involved in beating the UI. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Paelos on August 13, 2009, 02:51:57 PM For anybody that's died in a ground effect, boss mods usually scream at you that you're in a fucking ground effect. And yet, 90% of the time, that's the problem with raiders "not getting it."
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 13, 2009, 03:18:47 PM For anybody that's died in a ground effect, boss mods usually scream at you that you're in a fucking ground effect. And yet, 90% of the time, that's the problem with raiders "not getting it." Or patches that turn off projected textures by default for no good fucking reason <3 <3 Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 13, 2009, 03:32:00 PM Even if not for convenience, why wouldn't you use addons to fix UI frames and such. The default blizzard bards and unit frames are terribly designed, and have a ton of unnecessary artwork which clutters the screen. Honestly, if MMO devs made FPS games we'd still be using a Wolf3D style interface. They don't bother me, and it doesn't feel cluttered to me. I play on a giant ass screen, though, it would probably feel more cluttered on a more tiny-screened resolution. For anybody that's died in a ground effect, boss mods usually scream at you that you're in a fucking ground effect. And yet, 90% of the time, that's the problem with raiders "not getting it." Things I don't die to: ground effects EDIT: I don't 25 man raid very often, and when I do I'm a DPSer, not a tank. We don't do hard modes or anything like that. I don't need a boss mod to take chance out of the fights if I pay attention. Which I always do. Because I don't have a boss mod. It has the added bonus of patches never fucking me up because half my add ons are broken and I can't function without them. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: proudft on August 13, 2009, 03:45:05 PM Don't forget not being able to load in Dalaran because by the time the game loads all the city textures, player textures, and all two dozen of your addons, the server decided you're not connected anymore and boots you. :ye_gods:
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Jayce on August 13, 2009, 03:50:41 PM It has the added bonus of patches never fucking me up because half my add ons are broken and I can't function without them. This happened to me. I had the whole suite of Led-something-or-other addons, configured and tuned to a fine pitch. Then a patch came along and totally broke my UI and I had no idea where anything was or how to do much more than walk. Never again. I like tweaky UI addons, but if they all go away I have to still be able to function. I just don't want to spare the time to jack with them every patch. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Ingmar on August 13, 2009, 03:56:38 PM For just that reason, the only addons I use anymore are informational only, except for Grid, and Quartz for my casters. I don't use a bar mod for any of my characters anymore (my shaman was the last one using one, but blizzard fixed the totem UI finally), don't reskin the UI, etc. It makes patch days much nicer. If I lose my windows for Recount, Omen, my various FuBar plugins (or FuBar itself), etc., it is annoying but it doesn't interfere with my ability to actually play.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 13, 2009, 03:59:27 PM Oh, I do use recount. Any raidleader not running recount just to keep tabs on what people are doing is missing out.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Paelos on August 13, 2009, 04:00:46 PM Things I don't die to: ground effects Yeah if the tank starts dying to ground effects, pack up your shit and move out of that instance. It's not gonna happen. Also, yes on recount as a RL tool. Holy shit do you learn a lot about who's facerolling in your raid. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 13, 2009, 04:44:27 PM The death function in recount is the best thing ever.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Fordel on August 13, 2009, 06:01:13 PM The only Mod I use is Omen, and that's like 95% just to see if Thorgrim's opening attack whiffed or not.
Oh, I also use a Druid specific one called Sqawk and Awe, to keep track of the Eclipse internal cool down. The Blizzard default UI actually tells you when "BIG BOSS ABILITY" is about to happen on it's own these days, has for awhile. Where I would need major modding is healing, the default raid frames don't display the information every well at all. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Gobbeldygook on August 13, 2009, 06:40:31 PM When I tried to pug Naxx-10 some time before 3.2 on my resto shaman, a healer asked to be put in the same group as the tank so it would be easier to heal. The other one agreed. I should have bailed right then.
I used the built-in raid frames pre-wrath, but post-wrath, I use grid. Even when tanking, it's pretty valuable to know when some miserable failure dies in the fire. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 13, 2009, 06:42:29 PM It has the added bonus of patches never fucking me up because half my add ons are broken and I can't function without them. This happened to me. I had the whole suite of Led-something-or-other addons, configured and tuned to a fine pitch. Then a patch came along and totally broke my UI and I had no idea where anything was or how to do much more than walk. Never again. I like tweaky UI addons, but if they all go away I have to still be able to function. I just don't want to spare the time to jack with them every patch. We have a couple of dudes in our guild that use an obscene number of add ons. Every patch, even the little ones, screw 'em up it seems like, because it might break one add on but it takes them hours to figure out which one is making it so they can't play at all, etc. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 13, 2009, 06:45:49 PM Really the only people who I can't see having much benefit out of having a raid frame visible are Rogues and Warlocks. Everyone else has one or more abilities which you may need to apply to any member of the raid at given times during some or all fights. Being able to target people fast for these is only going to improve your raid's success over time.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 13, 2009, 06:56:27 PM When I tried to pug Naxx-10 some time before 3.2 on my resto shaman, a healer asked to be put in the same group as the tank so it would be easier to heal. The other one agreed. I should have bailed right then. I used the built-in raid frames pre-wrath, but post-wrath, I use grid. Even when tanking, it's pretty valuable to know when some miserable failure dies in the fire. The only thing that's fucked up to the "I cannot function well as a player" is my healframe at the moment (I'm patching it as I type, raid night!), healing outside your group without healing frames is going to be playing at 80% at best. The default healing frames are BETTER, but still lack so many functions of alarming and allowing for rapid one off spells. That said, there are still isolated reasons to arrange groups, most have to do with ranges on group wide effects, or the like 3 spells that are still group wide instead of raid wide. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: lamaros on August 13, 2009, 09:25:19 PM Back then casters stacked int, rogues didn't care about tohit, and most tanks didn't even know proper rotations beyond stack sunder, then stack some more. Geddon's bomb was an immense threat, several raid bosses were nothing more than tank'n'spanks, and +fireresist was the preferred way to victory. Also lolwepskill. Rose tinted glasses, they're awesome. Yeah, everyone know the real hardcore were zerging strath for those leet +spirit postman drops, not that int shit! On Topic: What Tale said. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Selby on August 13, 2009, 11:15:32 PM I just got done with ToC & Uld-10. Our guild has a good 7-8 people who are decently geared and play well. We were breaking in new recruits tonight and almost every wipe was due to "standing in the fire" or "not DPSing the right adds when they need to be." Towards the end I wanted to scream into /raid that those who could not bother to step out of the fire despite DBM & the default UI saying you were on fire needed to just leave (seriously, 9 wipes because a healer couldn't\wouldn't get out of the fire). Such a waste of my time and money. It still only takes one person who can't be bothered to pay attention to wipe the raid (ToC is really bad about this, one person dies in phase 1 and you might as well just give up). It's almost like being back in Ony and MC again (whelps? where did they come from?)
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sheepherder on August 13, 2009, 11:25:01 PM Really the only people who I can't see having much benefit out of having a raid frame visible are Rogues and Warlocks. Everyone else has one or more abilities which you may need to apply to any member of the raid at given times during some or all fights. This is not true. Really, DBM/BigWigs isn't needed in most cases any more, and raid frames are not needed at all for many classes. Damage/debuffs in raids are largely predictable and announced by the stock UI. If you need your entire fucking screen to shake in order to see the fire and the damage ticks scrolling across the screen you need to stop matching your druid healer shot for shot. (Someone actually did that last part, on vent, in my old guild. Strangely, the druid improved markedly as time wore on.) Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 14, 2009, 12:20:24 AM Really the only people who I can't see having much benefit out of having a raid frame visible are Rogues and Warlocks. Everyone else has one or more abilities which you may need to apply to any member of the raid at given times during some or all fights. Being able to target people fast for these is only going to improve your raid's success over time. The default UI covers that for most of my characters. Shit, I can still cleanse better than an awful lot of paladins with just that rather than a real heal grid. >< Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Fordel on August 14, 2009, 01:31:56 AM The biggest thing for umm "Off-Cleansing", is having a mouse over macro, so you don't have to actually lose the boss target.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: K9 on August 14, 2009, 04:04:20 AM Really the only people who I can't see having much benefit out of having a raid frame visible are Rogues and Warlocks. Everyone else has one or more abilities which you may need to apply to any member of the raid at given times during some or all fights. This is not true. Really, DBM/BigWigs isn't needed in most cases any more, and raid frames are not needed at all for many classes. Damage/debuffs in raids are largely predictable and announced by the stock UI. If you need your entire fucking screen to shake in order to see the fire and the damage ticks scrolling across the screen you need to stop matching your druid healer shot for shot. (Someone actually did that last part, on vent, in my old guild. Strangely, the druid improved markedly as time wore on.) You seem to misunderstand the difference between raid frames and boss mods. :oh_i_see: The default raid frames are larger, more cluttered and less informative than what is available from grid, x-perl or pitbull; and more or less every class except rogues and warlocks have some or many in-fight abilities that may require selective targeting at any raid member. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: SurfD on August 14, 2009, 05:41:32 AM Yep. I almost never play my druid in ANY form (Bear, cat or LazerChicken) without grid up somewhere on my screen. Unless you want to stop for 3 or 4 seconds and possibly die in the Fire / Cloud / eye beam / Lava Wall / Tornado / Void Zone / Cleave / etc while you type /tar Playername to try to find the person who just asked for an innervate or battlerez, having a decent raid frame which is compact yet concise in it's information display is a must.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 14, 2009, 09:09:44 AM Really the only people who I can't see having much benefit out of having a raid frame visible are Rogues and Warlocks. Everyone else has one or more abilities which you may need to apply to any member of the raid at given times during some or all fights. Being able to target people fast for these is only going to improve your raid's success over time. The default UI covers that for most of my characters. Shit, I can still cleanse better than an awful lot of paladins with just that rather than a real heal grid. >< part of me wants to say "hey, you guys are helping cleanse, thanks!" part of me wanted to paste the recount dispel chart and point out that I still had 70+% of the dispels when I'd get pissy and make time to dispel when I didn't think they were dropping fast enough <3 But a raid healing frame helps a ton with reaction times to dispel. But healing is imo the only highly recommended addon that Blizz hasn't copied wholesale into the base UI now. You can live without it, but they help a lot with not feeling overwhelmed on some of the more intense fights. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 14, 2009, 11:57:30 AM The biggest thing for umm "Off-Cleansing", is having a mouse over macro, so you don't have to actually lose the boss target. I don't have one (feel free to PM me the macro though) and I wound up doing the cleansing on the end Nexus fight in heroic because it was just TOO MUCH TO HANDLE for our paladin healer. >< Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 14, 2009, 12:06:55 PM Your post made me look Keri's move list on wowhead.
I now hate every priest and paladin that has ever teamed with me to do that instance. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 14, 2009, 01:41:09 PM Your post made me look Keri's move list on wowhead. I now hate every priest and paladin that has ever teamed with me to do that instance. You didn't know about the root? It's the "fuck youuuuu" move that makes you think about the fight a bit. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 14, 2009, 01:55:16 PM I did, I just assumed that it couldn't be removed since the fuckers always had me standing there, popping UA/IBS/AMS during the full duration and praying that DPS would have the sense to go balls to the walls during the enrage.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 14, 2009, 02:00:09 PM Ahahaha, oh, poor Hindenburg. That makes me feel slightly better about MY experience at least. <3
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 14, 2009, 02:12:55 PM Wait wait wait. You were the TANK and not getting cleansed?
My goddamned UI won't stop pestering me if the tank has anything on them that can be removed. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: AutomaticZen on August 14, 2009, 05:06:25 PM According to WoW Insider (http://www.wow.com/2009/08/14/ptr-patch-3-2-2-first-impresssions-of-onyxia/), she's still hard as shit.
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Hindenburg on August 14, 2009, 05:34:58 PM Wait wait wait. You were the TANK and not getting cleansed? My goddamned UI won't stop pestering me if the tank has anything on them that can be removed. Yep. Pugging: it's awesome. Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: Sjofn on August 14, 2009, 05:54:13 PM I was also the tank in my little experience. I was NOT pugging. >< >< ><
Title: Re: Fuuuuuuuck youuuuuuu Post by: kildorn on August 14, 2009, 10:53:55 PM Not my fault your guild healers su.. shit.
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