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Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2004, 02:48:20 AM Or specifically...
'wider choice of character customisation' 'Server clustering for RvR' presumably meaning shared frontiers. 'iRVR' appearing to mean instances of fixed population battles. From the Herald... Quote It’s the week before Christmas and all through the ‘Nets, all the creatures are stirring including their pets. With a land that is dark, and a world made for war throw in a place made forever, there is no room for snores. There’s excitement and mirth, laughter and beer, in the end though what counts, Mythic’s still here. We’ve worked and we’ve slaved, and we’ve delivered our best, now the next question from you is “What are you giving us next???” So, holiday rhymes aside, what the heck am I talking about? Well, the last six weeks has seen the release of two of the most anticipated and expensive, MMORPGs to date along with the release of our next, but certainly not last, expansion pack Catacombs. These games were built to crush the competition but they will not succeed. Yes, we have lost subscribers but we aren’t hiding and we certainly aren’t running from the competition. As I’ve always preached, competition is good for the industry and good for the soul (even if it is a little hard at times). So, what are we going to ensure that DAoC continues to be one of the top US MMORPGs? Simple, we are going to continue to improve it. Catacombs injected a new graphics engine that puts the game right up there or ahead of anything else on the market. Our instanced areas and other changes have made the game easier than ever to play and succeed in than ever before. New classes and new areas have added new depth to an already deep world. And, best of all, the Catacombs launch was the cleanest launch of all time from our perspective (least downtime, fewest bugs, fewest customer support calls, etc.) and we have set the standard (again) for the launch of a product. However, that is not good enough and over the next few months, here are some of the presents that players will find under their Mythic trees. Matt will be giving out more details on all these things tomorrow. First, we are going to be adding a lot more options for customization of your characters. What we’ve done is great, but we want to be even better. So look for an ongoing effort to make a diverse world even more diverse. Second, as always Mythic has been listening to its player base and we know that on some servers, the lack of a large number of players engaged in RvR at any one point in time can be an issue. Because DAoC is both a PvE and RvR game, we are particularly vulnerable to downturns in the population of a server. So, we have been thinking and trying to come up with a good solution. While we could do something like a server merge, we wanted to come up with something better since even a “simple” merge has a host of problems associated with it. Well, it has taken a bit but we have come up with something that is even better. Thus, we introduce server clustering. Without going into too much details, what this means is that players will have a lot more friends and enemies in RvR, but not change the home server’s community unless the players seek to do so. We believe this will make for even better RvR without any of the problems associated with server merges and players leaving their communities. We are the first to ever do this in the industry and we hope that you will enjoy it. The third present is Instanced RvR areas. This is one of the most requested features by our players and, as always, we have been listening. Adding iRvR to our game takes it to an entirely different level and the stuff that we are working on for it I think will surprise you. As required by lawyers everywhere, the usual disclaimer that this letter is a guide as to what we hope to do during this period and not as a guarantee of any kind. I always hate saying this but that’s what lawyers are for, to make us say things that we hate. So, that is a quick State of the Game from here. We’re gearing up to celebrate a great year, full of things that went right, some things that went wrong and some things that apparently can’t make up their mind (you know some things are just that way!). From all of us at Mythic, a Happy Holidays and we thank the community for its continued support and patronage of DAoC! Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on December 17, 2004, 06:21:40 AM SWG combat revamp vs DAOC iRvR and clustering. Anyone want to start the clock?
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2004, 08:04:22 AM Start the clock on whether DAoC's instanced RVR or WoW's instanced battlegrounds debut first.
After seeing Blizzard in action, my money is on Mythic. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 08:12:02 AM Yeah, I'd put my money on Mythic as well, unless I start thinking about adding player-owned mounts.
Say what you want about Mark Jacobs, at least he never buries his head in the sand and acts like there are no other competitors out there. He says "We lost customers to our competitors." Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Paelos on December 17, 2004, 08:37:00 AM Quote from: HaemishM Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept. It would be a lot more popular for the controls it provides. I would increase the action, it would decrease the zerg, and it would round out the population imblances faster. I would envision a BG like example for every major keep out there, including the relics, which would add a more fun feel to the game in addition to balancing the community. Putting more space into the game is never going to solve the RvR issues, it just makes them more complicated. That's why smaller and more defined is going to the be the answer. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Johny Cee on December 17, 2004, 09:10:44 AM Quote from: HaemishM Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept. No way. Instanced rvr will likely turn into the epeen waving preserve of gank groups (or at least I hope....). I like 8 v 8 fine, but gank groups ruin alot of the fun for casual/pickup type players, who can't or won't min/max to that degree. For me DAoC rvr was always about the 2-3 man run to Doden's/Uppland, or chasing/hunting or baiting stealthers in DF. Although I will admit, the most fun I had in the game was the very rare evenly matched large zerg vs. large zerg 20 minute open field fight. Too bad it only happened once or twice a month.... and that's on Pel with not too terrible population disparity. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2004, 10:22:33 AM Quote from: Paelos Quote from: HaemishM Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? As for server clustering of the frontiers, how will that affect relics and such? Strange concept. It would be a lot more popular for the controls it provides. I would increase the action, it would decrease the zerg, and it would round out the population imblances faster.r. It'll be attractive to the solid 8 man teams who pine for emain. Less so to the large numbers of more casual rvr players who actually prefer keep sieges, and who, assuming their PC can handle it, would be happy as a pig in muck if you could just give them two even sized zergs facing off against each other. (And these people benefit from the frontier clustering most) Everyone's a winner. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 17, 2004, 10:27:38 AM Quote from: HaemishM Am I the only one who thinks that Instanced RVR (depending on the form it takes) will be more popular than frontier RVP? Initially, I think you're right. In the long run it will depend entirely on implementation. I assume that they will try to introduce some sort of balance (i.e. by RR) when deciding which groups can engage in iRvR. Over time, instanced RvR will become even more about what the casual gamers hate: items, ML's, group construction, and communication (teamspeak/ventrillo) that will decide outcomes. Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate. My prediction is that most people will dabble with the instances for a while, but then head back to the fronteirs. Seige keeps and zergs do a lot to minimize the effects of not having the perfect gear/communication/ML's/group makeup. Overall, the addition of instancing and clustering will be a benefit to everyone. Those that enjoy 8v8 can get it and those that enjoy zerging in NF will have more people to zerg with. Unless they really screw up the implementation, this is a win-win for Mythic. It may just be enough of a gauze pad to slow the bleeding for a few more months. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: SirBruce on December 17, 2004, 10:55:05 AM Quote from: HaemishM Say what you want about Mark Jacobs, at least he never buries his head in the sand and acts like there are no other competitors out there. He says "We lost customers to our competitors." I'm still waiting for him to give out a number. Maybe in January? But I never had any doubt he'd be straight about it. Mark does have a marvelous ability to spin what he says in a way that puts his position in a positive light, but I've never known him to lie about the facts. Bruce Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 11:06:03 AM Quote from: Nebu Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate. Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Mesozoic on December 17, 2004, 11:47:44 AM Mythic needs to either
1) admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character, or 2) turn the "1-50 and beyond" grind into something that at least takes place in some kind of entertaining fantasy world with a coherent backstory and game rules that make sense. Sadly the remaining playerbase has already achieved (1) and has no interest in (2), so the motivation to do either is essentially (0). Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Johny Cee on December 17, 2004, 11:53:10 AM Quote from: HaemishM Quote from: Nebu Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate. Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time. I disagree, a little. The larger the number of players on both sides, the less important min/maxxing is and the more important organization is. Solo, most of the time, is all about class and "I-win" arties/ras. Group, less so, but still important. 2-3 coordinated pickup groups (i.e. non-maxxed players) can tear apart a zerg, if they have decent organization. Move around a bit, string em out, than wipe the groups as they catch up to you. Of course, most of the time it's freeze frame/death sound.... Smaller zergs often wipe larger when the smaller side is on the same page, and have someone competant calling the shots. I agree whole-heartedly with what Nebu said, as well. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: personman on December 17, 2004, 12:02:19 PM Quote from: Mesozoic 1) admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character, or I'd come back for that and happily stay. It's mortified me to watch my DAoC buds catassing their way to L60 in WoW so "we can finally have fun". It was that mentality that drove me out of DAoC when I was outleveled almost immediately. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Sobelius on December 17, 2004, 12:16:01 PM DAOC's instanced RvR is also a pre-emptive swing at Guild Wars' instanced PvP.
However, even as a long-time DAOC player, I'll take GW's PvP over DAOC PvP. IMHO it has the best combination of "my character" + "PvP" (as opposed to BF1942- or SWBattlefront-style PvP where there is no "my character"; and as opposed to SB, AO, SWG, EQ, DAOC, AC, AC2 or WoW PvP where the systems were just not well designed for balanced confrontations.) I had more fun the one night our 8-member Bat Country Guild team spent an hour battling another 8-member team than I ever did in any PvP in DAOC. And it has nothing to do with winning. We lost the GW battle, but it was a hell of a fight (maybe a tad too long, but still fun). Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 01:01:08 PM Quote from: Johny Cee Quote from: HaemishM Quote from: Nebu Balancing for realm rank will help to even the playing field in instances, but the team with the best templates/group construction/communication will still dominate. Those are the thing that will dominate whether there is a zerg, balanced sides, or being outnumbered almost every single time. I disagree, a little. The larger the number of players on both sides, the less important min/maxxing is and the more important organization is. Solo, most of the time, is all about class and "I-win" arties/ras. Group, less so, but still important. 2-3 coordinated pickup groups (i.e. non-maxxed players) can tear apart a zerg, if they have decent organization. Move around a bit, string em out, than wipe the groups as they catch up to you. Of course, most of the time it's freeze frame/death sound.... Smaller zergs often wipe larger when the smaller side is on the same page, and have someone competant calling the shots. I agree whole-heartedly with what Nebu said, as well. Communication in MMOG's = Organization. Organization cannot exist without communication. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 17, 2004, 04:43:00 PM Quote from: Mesozoic Mythic needs to either 1) admit that their game is medieval quake, and start everyone out with an absolute maxxed-out character. I absolutely agree that 1-50 has turned into nothing more than a barrier to changing class at will (You can argue a case for or against this). But everything beyond 50 is overrated, the amount of MLs and artifacts you *need* to be competitive is much lower than your typical board troll will admit. What you need in daoc to be competitive beyond 50 in RvR is organisation. Organisation > MLs, RRs, and artifacts. (Also organisation makes getting MLs, RRs, and artifacts trivial) Large scale rvr is mostly about who has the best cat herders. It has much less to do with individual skill, post-50 'levels', or even numbers, than most players will admit. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: SirBruce on December 17, 2004, 09:57:17 PM Hey guys, you better watch all the Mythic bashing. Remember what happened last time:
http://vnboards.ign.com/DAoC_General_Board/b5176/19019156/p1 Bruce Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Ironwood on December 18, 2004, 02:00:25 PM Not funny.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 18, 2004, 03:53:31 PM More detail on new noses...
Quote More Catacombs Character Customization Options Building upon the foundation laid with Catacombs, we will provide additional options for customizing your characters. A new batch of faces, hairstyles, tattoos (where appropriate), and more will be introduced in the coming months. Remember, Catacombs players can change their character’s appearance by talking to an NPC found in their Realm’s friendly Catacombs city. On clustering... Quote Server Clustering We have been paying close attention to the community feedback from our different servers. Several servers have populations high enough to support exciting RVR. However, our lower-pop servers often don’t have enough fighting players logged in simultaneously, and gameplay on those servers is suffering. To alleviate this problem, we've come up with a new solution: we will “cluster” the servers. The intent of this system is to give players lots more friends and enemies in RvR, but not change the home server’s community unless the players seek to do so. The way it works is as follows: * Servers that are clustered will have shared battlegrounds and frontier zones. Thus, all players on the clustered servers will RvR together. * For PvE, players will have a choice of which server’s PvE zones they wish to enter (among the servers in that particular cluster). The current plan is to put an NPC in the capital city that controls which server’s PvE zones you enter – if you want to venture to another server in the cluster, you may do so by talking to that NPC, which will let you zone into other server’s PvE and housing zones. For example, if in a cluster of three servers, players on all three servers can adventure on each of the three server’s PvE zones. * Players will be able to send private messages (/sends and /tells) to each other across the clustered servers, just as if they were physically logged on to that server. * Players from “foreign” servers that are adventuring on another server in their cluster will be identified as “[playername] of [servername]” or something similar. * Some servers will be clustered and some will not, depending on population. These are just the basics; we’ll announce the full system when it is implemented around the beginning of the new year. At that time, of course, we’ll announce the actual servers that will be clustered together, and when we do so we will take into account which Realms “fit” together best amongst the servers. This is effectively a full server merge with CoH style zone instances. And on instanced RvR.... Quote Instanced RvR A common question during Catacombs’ development was whether or not Instanced RvR would be coming. We decided to focus Catacombs on PvE – but now that the expansion has launched, we’re putting together a design and starting to implement Instanced RvR. I don’t have too much to tell you about it, other than it will be a “matching service” that will find groups from other Realms on your server (or cluster!) and put you into a dungeon-type area to RvR. We are working on different types of rulesets right now; more information will be forthcoming when Instanced RvR goes into testing. Quote We will post complete information about each of these new additions when we put them up on Pendragon for testing – expect to see the first patch notes in the first half of January. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Shockeye on December 18, 2004, 03:58:51 PM If the PVE grind wasn't so crushing in DAoC, I might re-activate my account someday.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Soukyan on December 19, 2004, 02:38:56 PM Quote from: Shockeye If the PVE grind wasn't so crushing in DAoC, I might re-activate my account someday. /agree Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Ironwood on December 20, 2004, 01:34:49 AM Is there any online game out there right now that the f13 people won't slate for a crushing grind ?
Seriously ? People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 20, 2004, 02:09:34 AM To be fair, people slate the crushing grind in daoc because...
1) You need to complete it to get to any of the interesting content (RvR, ToA etc - battlegrounds are all very well, but they don't work when they are empty, ie. all the time). 2) It's galling to watch multiboxers blaze past you pling a 5th alt to 50 in 10% of the time it will take you to get there. 3) There is noone left to group with from lvl 1-40. People don't yet slate the crushing grind in WoW or EQ2 only because there because there is still a low level community. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Soukyan on December 20, 2004, 07:40:46 AM Quote from: Ironwood Is there any online game out there right now that the f13 people won't slate for a crushing grind ? Seriously ? People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now. Honestly, DAoC has a crushing grind. Those others you mentioned, not so much. I actually still enjoy CoH and WoW. Perhaps it's just burnout from DAoC... actually, no it isn't. I still loved the RvR system when I quit playing the game. I quit because of the crushing PvE grind. Hell, the PvE content is even interesting, but it becomes boring because of the time you have to spend staring at the same stuff. If they lessened the grind, it would be more enjoyable. But they won't and that's fine by me. The people who don't mind the time investment or using a buffbot for everything can enjoy themselves. I just hope some other game takes a good hard look at DAoC's RvR and implements something comparable because it's a very good system. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 20, 2004, 08:46:48 AM What makes the grind to 50 in DAoC isn't the incline of the treadmill from 1-50. With the catacombs expansion, I'd confidently state that even a novice can make it to the endgame faster than any of the major players on the market. An experienced player can go from 1-50 in the instanced dungeons in a week or two with a single box, faster if they are PL'ed. Also add in the low population level bonus (a free level every 2-3 days on some servers) for those wanting to help a realm at a disadvantage.
The pains in DAoC come from two places: 1. Most of the PvE is mind-numbingly dull. Bad pathing, predictable AI, and a repetitive combat system... I guess this isn't so unique to DAoC. PvE isn't exactly rocket science. 2. The grind once you hit level 50: ToA has mandated that you attain ML's, gather and level artifacts, and piece together an assortment of items (many crafted by a dwindling crafter population) called a template. This is the portion of the game that makes competing in the "fun part" a drag. Yes, you can participate in the rvr endgame without these things, but you do it knowing that you are immediately at a disadvantage. Note: you can attempt to combine the artifact farming/ML's with your leveling from 40-50, but this requires the help of friends and/or a good guild. Mythic did do a couple of things right with the Catacombs expansion in that they made the grind to 50 shorter, improved the graphics a bit, and added new drops that WON'T AFFECT RvR LIKE ToA DID! Sorry... I still twitch when I think about how ToA turned the endgame into an arms race. I think the proposed instancing and clustering of servers for RvR will help as well... at least for the existing community. Personally, I enjoy RvR quite a bit and find that part of the endgame worthwhile. The downfall of all of this is clear. I think that though improved, the grind to 50 combined with the ToA armsrace will deter most newcomers from giving this title a try. This is a shame since the one thing this game needs most is an influx of new blood. Edit: Don't think I'm deluded. If you're a fan of PvE, there are much better games out there. I think that DAoC is really geared for those that want RvR as their primary form of gameplay. Outside of RvR, every new game outshines DAoC. I'm still looking toward CoV, WoW, and GW to see how they handle their PvP systems... let's see what they learn from past history. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Rasix on December 20, 2004, 08:47:58 AM Quote from: Ironwood People seem to like COH and WOW at first, but are starting to complain now. Nearly 41 in WoW now. Still no grind in sight. I think I was sick of DAoC's leveling nearly instantly. I've really had more fun constructing accident spreadsheets when I worked in traffic engineering. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: AlteredOne on December 20, 2004, 09:09:24 AM Aye Soukyan, same feelings here. Played DAOC for 3 years on and off, got to Realm Rank 7 on my hero. I *loved* the game, back before Trials of Atlantis. My favorite times were organizing keep takes with my guild, in Old Frontiers. I beta tested the New Frontiers and like the concept, but somehow it was just not much fun. As a tank, I could not do much beyond banging on doors. All my friends re-rolled as casters and scout types, with buffbots.
Guildwars is great fun, but it does not capture the "RvR" feel. It's fun group-vs-group combat, and that's all. My ultimate fantasy game would this: - Very low level treadmill, like GuildWars - Strategic RvR with a huge map, similar to DAOC - Game mechanics that encourage spreading out on the map, via a complex system of meaningful objectives. No game has done this. DAOC was simplistic "capture the flag" with relics, and tit-for-tat keep takes for Darkness Falls access. And of course, there was the ubiquitous "zerg" problem, because there were not enough incentives to spread out. There ya go. I'm not excited about these DAOC changes, for two reasons: - Frontiers RvR will be even more dead, with the uber groups off doing 8v8 instances. They will effectively be segregated into an uber deathmatch community. - Server clustering will not alleviate the problem of Frontiers being an exclusively ranged affair, with tons of mega-botted ToA'd catassers duking it out in "spy vs. spy" with arrows. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2004, 09:13:39 AM Quote from: SirBruce Hey guys, you better watch all the Mythic bashing. Remember what happened last time: http://vnboards.ign.com/DAoC_General_Board/b5176/19019156/p1 Bruce Dick. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Paelos on December 20, 2004, 09:22:25 AM Quote from: Nebu What makes the grind to 50 in DAoC isn't the incline of the treadmill from 1-50. With the catacombs expansion, I'd confidently state that even a novice can make it to the endgame faster than any of the major players on the market. An experienced player can go from 1-50 in the instanced dungeons in a week or two with a single box, faster if they are PL'ed. My Bullshit-o-meter went off the charts at this statement. Unless by "experienced" players you mean people that piss in cups so they don't have to get up, I seriously doubt the validity here. As for the other two statements, I heartily agree. ToA killed the game. Expansions are supposed to be fun and add-ons that give the people that buy them new things to explore. They aren't supposed to give the players a totally different focus on finding and collecting inane crap to compete in the endgame. They'll never get another dime from me. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 20, 2004, 09:32:29 AM Quote from: Paelos My Bullshit-o-meter went off the charts at this statement. Unless by "experienced" players you mean people that piss in cups so they don't have to get up, I seriously doubt the validity here. Please don't confuse me with someone that thinks catass = skilled. By "experienced" I was simply referring to knowing fundamental aspects of the game. What areas are best for hunting, what quests to do, which quests to tandem, what classes level the fastest, what classes make the most efficient groups, etc. My "experience" was more a nuts-and-bolts knowledge of game mechanics. Anyone that played the game with a modicum of insight will be more successful than someone that is new to the game. I'm willing to bet that you levelled at a faster rate with your second toon than your first. That's the type of experience I was referring to. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on December 20, 2004, 09:40:30 AM 1 to 2 weeks played time I can agree with.
1 to 2 weeks elapsed time seems unlikley. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on December 20, 2004, 09:51:51 AM 1-50 in Catacombs may sound easy. Too bad you still need to TOA since all the Catacombs items are PVE-only. But TOA to me really isn't the issue.
DAOC fundamentally is about grouping. In 2 expansions with new classes, how many of those classes have been support? In each realm, you've got multiple classes that can act as a "tank", multiple classes as the "nuker", but there's still only 1 class per realm that can be the primary healer and/or buffer? I don't care if you can play some new uber damage dealing class - it's nothing in DAOC without the proper support(whether it's a buffbot or not). Quality RvR competition(the number of groups out in the frontiers), and even quality PvE, is limited by the least class played that's considered essential to group makeup. I can take the PVE grind(it's fun socializing during downtime), I can take getting rolled by high RR's...I cannot take sitting on my ass for 2+hours LFG. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 20, 2004, 10:00:29 AM Quote from: eldaec 1 to 2 weeks played time I can agree with. 1 to 2 weeks elapsed time seems unlikley. Ok, if we're going to split hairs the amount of time to get from level 1-50 will vary depending on how many hours a day you play. I'll try to do this based on /played and let people make a decision from there. The last toon I leveled to 50 prior to the release of catacombs took me about 3-4 days played. The fastest I've heard people level a toon to 50 was in 24-28 hours while being PL'ed. The catacombs expansion seems to have improved the rate of experience by 35-40%. Add to this a free level every 2-3 days as well as low population bonuses and leveling is quite a bit faster than it used to be. The math: In an idealized case, I'll consider 3 days with a 40% reduction that's about 43.2 hours played. If a gamer plays ~20h a week, that's roughly 2 weeks. Of course, we could get into semantics about 20h a week being hardcore so times may vary. Conclusion: I think that you're correct in your statement that 1-2 weeks was a bit too low of an estimate on my part. I'd certainly say that someone should be able to play semi-casually and still get to 50 within their free month. This would, of course, depend on their server choice, character class, etc. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Rasix on December 20, 2004, 10:07:18 AM And yet despite it being quick (if you pick the right server, know all of the leveling spots, pick the right class, pick the right build, do the hokey pokey at 1am on Wednesday while sacrificing a calf) in mmorpg end game terms *snicker*, it wil still be a boring, horrible experience. Combine this with the other prereq boring, horrible experiences you need to go through before you're officially certified 100% USDA RvR ready, and I don't see why any new player would even look twice at Dark Age when there's other less ass intrusion heavy games on the market.
It's a crushing grind Nebu. I'm not quite sure how you're disproving this. Edit: Don't take me too seriously here. I like poking and prodding DAoC players. How you put up with so much garbage just mystifies me. (I play WoW with two ex DAoC catasses, their exploits are burned into my memory.) Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 20, 2004, 10:08:13 AM Quote from: chinslim DAOC fundamentally is about grouping. In 2 expansions with new classes, how many of those classes have been support? In each realm, you've got multiple classes that can act as a "tank", multiple classes as the "nuker", but there's still only 1 class per realm that can be the primary healer and/or buffer? I don't care if you can play some new uber damage dealing class - it's nothing in DAOC without the proper support(whether it's a buffbot or not). I agree completely. Big issues here are that a) buffs are almost mandatory for PvE and RvR if you hope to compete and b) most of the support classes are just plain boring to play. Quote from: chinslim I can take the PVE grind(it's fun socializing during downtime), I can take getting rolled by high RR's...I cannot take sitting on my ass for 2+hours LFG. You have me beat... my PvE tolerance is almost nil. WoW and CoH are the best implementations of PvE I've seen in this genre and I can still only take a little before I lose interest (1 month of CoH, 2 weeks of WoW). As for the second statement, I agree as well. One of the problems with DAoC RvR is that it demands a balanced group. If you don't have a strong network of online friends, it can mean playing in a painfully bad pug (pickup group) or sitting doing nothing for hours. Both of these are becoming even bigger problems as the populations have dwindled since the release of WoW and EQ2. This is why I think clustering may be beneficial... perhaps by increasing server numbers there will be more opportunities to find groups and create new social networks. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on December 20, 2004, 10:15:43 AM Quote from: Rasix It's a crushing grind Nebu. I'm not quite sure how you're disproving this. You're right... and I'm not trying to disprove your statement. Above I stated: Quote from: Nebu Personally, I enjoy RvR quite a bit and find that part of the endgame worthwhile. The downfall of all of this is clear. I think that though improved, the grind to 50 combined with the ToA armsrace will deter most newcomers from giving this title a try. This is a shame since the one thing this game needs most is an influx of new blood. I guess what I'm trying to say (but articulating poorly) is that Mythic has taken a step in the right direction by lessening the grind. I think there are many more things they could do, but doubt they will at this point. I hate the PvE... it's terrible and a mind-numbing bore. It does nothing to train players for RvR and is little more than a retention timesink. I have tolerated it only because I see it as a necessary evil to get to the game I enjoy, RvR. I think they could (and should) keep reducing the treadmill and entrance costs to RvR. I'm just not sure that Mythic is willing to admit that they can't compete as a PvE entity. Quote from: Rasix Edit: Don't take me too seriously here. I like poking and prodding DAoC players. How you put up with so much garbage just mystifies me. (I play WoW with two ex DAoC catasses, their exploits are burned into my memory.) I don't take offense at all... I actually think you're dead on. I have a terrible love-hate relationship with DAoC that's pretty disfunctional. I think that the RvR in DAoC is one of the best implementations of PvP I've encountered (why oh why did Shadowbane have to be such a clusterfuck). It just kills me that I have to wade through the river of shit that is PvE to get there. If Blizzard can create a PvP environment that's even close to what is in DAoC, I'll be joining you in WoW. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: squire on December 21, 2004, 08:12:34 AM ToA killed the casual player being able tocompete and New Frontiers made it so you don't contribute much in RvR unless you're a caster or archer.
The best fun in the game is in the battlegrounds. If Mythic were smart they would examine the level 20-24 and the level 35-39 battlegrounds (the ones people actually go to) and check out the fighting there. I started over on a new server since my main (Shadowblade) really has no role anymore. I am able to find actual newbies to level with and have made a good group of friends that are pretty new to the game. I did this on a mid to low population server (Tristan). I can see where the low pop servers might be dicey but there are still newbies in the game levelling their first characters. I'm the same addict type as Nabu, I love RvR when it works but now it rarely works. If WoW improves upon their RvR then I'd be there. Mythic doesn't seem to know what made their game fun (It's the open field RvR where all classes can contribute, stupid) and they keep putting in stuff that gets in the way. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on December 21, 2004, 09:06:23 AM I think what made BG RvR fun are these factors 1) no AE CC 2) no RA's/RR's 3) You don't die in less than 3 seconds and fights seem to last longer 4) no Speed 5(people can react in time to incoming) 5) no long-term stuns. 6) Uber groups move on relatively quickly, leaving a level playing field behind.
While I've always thought DAOC has the most potential for fun, and the best MMO concept out there, the last time I played, the game was alot of frustration. The first thing I think Mythic needs to do is increase class versatility and overlap utility so forming groups will be much easier. Each realm has over 12 classes now, but there is still only 1 class per realm with speed 5, 1 class considered the primary buffer, and 1 class the primary healer. But so far, I'm enjoying WOW. WOW PVP, in my experience, has been alot like DAOC BG RVR for the factors I listed above. Since you quest and run into PVP simultaneously, you almost never become bored by the lack of PVP or by PVE grinding. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: AlteredOne on December 22, 2004, 07:33:03 AM At one point in DAOC, my guild had over 100 active members, and was one of the top 5 biggest guilds on our server. Now there are about ten semi-active members, most of whom farm ToA artifacts endlessly with buffbots. The ToA "arms race" is truly ungodly. You can get artifacts for nearly every equipment slot, and take weeks leveling each one. The true catassers might have multiple artifacts on a half-dozen high-level toons at this point.
Agreed on looking at the Battlegrounds for solutions, but I think Mythic is way behind the curve at this point. Last year's "Frontiers" free expansion was supposed to be the great RvR revamp. Instead it drove a ton of people out of RvR, once they got over the novelty of the new gigantic keep sieges. I spent a couple weeks participating in massive ranged standoff battles, before I realized it simply was not fun. 90% of the players were just "farming realm points," with almost no tactics or strategy involved. The other 10% were the uber-groups, who were simply more efficient at farming the sheep herd. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Shockeye on January 04, 2005, 03:59:09 PM I guess it's expensive to lose so many customers. (http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1870.shtml)
Quote Thus, we are announcing a price increase starting on February 3rd to the prices listed below. * $14.95 per month * $40.35 for 3 months * $71.70 for 6 months * $137.40 for 1 year No matter how many expansion packs they throw at it, DAoC is not equal of the current crop of games and I don't believe they should be charging like they are. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Krakrok on January 04, 2005, 10:52:38 PM It's still selling better than EQ2 on Amazon.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Arnold on January 04, 2005, 11:18:38 PM Quote from: Shockeye If the PVE grind wasn't so crushing in DAoC, I might re-activate my account someday. I made it to level 10 or 12 =/ Why the fuck do companies put what I want under a mountain of torture? Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2005, 02:47:20 AM That would be £7.67.
So still cheaper than, for example, the abortion that is EU DAoC (£8). Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on January 05, 2005, 06:49:18 AM If anyone's still playing DAOC, then they're probably addicted to DAOC anyways. $2 won't drive them away, but I'm shocked, shocked they didn't offer a multiple account(buffbot) discount plan.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: AlteredOne on January 05, 2005, 09:14:27 AM A price increase is counter-intuitive, but oh well. If I were Mythic, I would be looking for ways to draw customers back. They hoped for a big boost from Catacombs, and it looks like it flopped. So instead they said "let's try to get more money out of our existing customers."
So, as the poster above said, they are counting on milking their addicts, because they will certainly not lure any new or returning players, by raising the price. AO has the right idea, with their free year offer. They are admitting "we're an old game, come try us for cheap." But they didn't get it right, either, in my opinion. They'll just get a bunch of riff-raff looking for freebies, who will not be willing to pony up $15/month for a 4-year-old game. Either these second-tier games need to lower their prices to attract new business, or they need to introduce time-limited "casual" player pricing options. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: sidereal on January 05, 2005, 10:49:33 AM Reeks of squeezing everything you possibly can out before the building burns down.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on January 05, 2005, 10:50:31 AM Personally I suspect most potential new players will remain unaware of the price increase regardless of whether they sign up or not.
$15 is not a lot of money for anyone putting 20 hours a week into a game. 19c an hour is not excessive charging. If you are playing much less than 20 hours a week, then... 1) There are more casual friendly games out there. 2) You are in a tiny minority of daoc players. Try hanging out with friends in a bar for 19c an hour. The crushing grind remains there and in full effect ofc. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: schild on January 05, 2005, 11:44:08 AM Summed up in a sentence:
No game older than City of Heroes should be charging $15 a month; it's bad taste. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on January 05, 2005, 09:23:52 PM Quote A price increase is counter-intuitive, but oh well. If I were Mythic, I would be looking for ways to draw customers back. They hoped for a big boost from Catacombs DAOC dug themselves into a deep, deep hole with all their cumulative "addons" It seems as if everything Mythic has done to improve the game has backfired. SI: nobody plays in the original zones anymore TOA: nobody plays in SI anymore New Frontiers: pissed alot of people off /level 20: It means there's no 1-20 community for new players to meet veterans. ML's, artifacts, realm abilities as a vehicle for fixing class and combat mechanics shortcomings (MOC for caster interruption, Bodyguard so tanks can do their job, Phoebus' Harp for fixing instrument issues, etc): created a neverending grind in order to make a character RvR-ready. The underlying game mechanics also still suck. It's as if Mythic were better off keeping their hands off DAOC. The game was at its best before SI, when you could still reasonably find groups before the uber SI expansion classes took over powerleveling and nobody(nor any group) was RR7+ and wtfpwned everything else. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on January 06, 2005, 01:04:31 AM Quote from: chinslim The game was at its best before SI, when you could still reasonably find groups before the uber SI expansion classes took over powerleveling and nobody(nor any group) was RR7+ and wtfpwned everything else. The death of levelling groups in DAoC had nothing to do with SI (which at least provided Avalon City as an alternative to killing the damn pirate trees), and everything to do with /level, buffbots, and the efficiency of PLing. Becuase of buff bots, many people bought a second account, becuase they already had a second account PLing became a serious option. Oh, and necromancers. You can blame SI for introducing necromancers. (A class that is quite brilliant at xp farming, but useless for anything else) Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Soukyan on January 06, 2005, 04:43:23 AM Quote from: eldaec Quote from: chinslim The game was at its best before SI, when you could still reasonably find groups before the uber SI expansion classes took over powerleveling and nobody(nor any group) was RR7+ and wtfpwned everything else. The death of levelling groups in DAoC had nothing to do with SI (which at least provided Avalon City as an alternative to killing the damn pirate trees), and everything to do with /level, buffbots, and the efficiency of PLing. Becuase of buff bots, many people bought a second account, becuase they already had a second account PLing became a serious option. Oh, and necromancers. You can blame SI for introducing necromancers. (A class that is quite brilliant at xp farming, but useless for anything else) And RAs as a fix for classes. See that is the true underlying problem. Classes were never fixed/balanced/etc. properly before the bandaids were thrown on and that is the reason that all these MLs, artifacts, RAs, blah blah blah are necessary for different classes. There is one good thing to it. You can choose the length and direction of the grind you want to pursue based on the class you pick. ;) Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on January 06, 2005, 05:38:22 AM My WOW priest can:
-spec talents for a brief period of uninterruptability -spec a talent to make heals less interruptable -has a "phase shift" spell to reduce PVE aggro I pay at the most, 50 gold(which doesn't break the bank at level 60), for respecs. No post-level augmentations like RA's or ML's, and no need to wait a few times every year for a dwindling realm population to kill some epic dragon for a chance to roll on a respec. Cheap respecs matter when it's an issue of making your character fit into groups better, and thus an issue of basic gameplay. Mythic simply makes it harder to be group-friendly. Great policy. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2005, 08:26:22 AM Actually, a lot of Mythic's problems with class balance could have been solved by the addition of collision detection for player avatars (no need to give tanks special abilities to allow them to protect others, just stand the fuck in front of them), and the removal of all crowd control abilities in RVR. Forever and ever a-fucking-men.
Not that anyone would do it, or thinks is technically feasible or anything. I'm just saying. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on January 06, 2005, 08:30:23 AM Quote from: HaemishM Actually, a lot of Mythic's problems with class balance could have been solved by the addition of collision detection for player avatars ...... Not that anyone would do it, or thinks is technically feasible or anything. I'm just saying. Amen to that. And my understanding from very old half remembered dev posts is that it is technically feasible. The engine already includes the feature - just needs to be turned on (though only for realm enemies in order to prevent griefing). Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2005, 08:34:44 AM By technically feasible, I mean doesn't make the server shit itself when more than 3 people get into the same area.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Soukyan on January 06, 2005, 08:37:35 AM No, it really was easily feasible to do collision detection in that game. For fucks sake, EQ had collision detection. Not that that was a good thing there, but...
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: AlteredOne on January 06, 2005, 08:46:34 AM DAOC has collision detection for walls and trees. I assume the same code would work for other players, but they set a flag defining players as a non-collision object. Obviously there is more processing in calculating collision with moving objects, but it's hard to believe their engine could not have supported it.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Numtini on January 06, 2005, 12:07:54 PM /level really didn't affect PVE levelling groups. It was bots. The situation from 20-50 wasn't any better. Just soloers with healbots and uber equipment.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Nebu on January 06, 2005, 12:51:41 PM Quote from: HaemishM ...and the removal of all crowd control abilities in RVR. Forever and ever a-fucking-men. AMEN! I'd like to meet the dev that thought being grappled, stunned, rooted, mezzed, zephyred, and ST'ed during RvR would be "fun" for the players. Crowd control or anything that removes control from the player's hands for a period of time is a BAD IDEA. I have an rr6 melee toon with several means of purging cc and still find cases where I'm unable to do anything for a majority of an encounter. As for the extra money, I'm not sure how it will affect things all that much. I don't think it will have much effect on the existing player base and the number of new subscribers must be exceedingly low. What I think may happen is that it will serve as yet another deterrent for new players. It's almost as if Mythic is giving up on new blood and just trying to ride the current wave as long as they can. I know that if I were new to the MMOG genre, I'd much rather pay for WoW or CoH... especially considering they don't need you to have 2 accounts. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: Paelos on January 06, 2005, 01:10:01 PM Collision detection would remove most of the need for crowd control spells and actually create a use for tanks as protector units. Then again, it would piss off the majority of caster idiots in the game so it will never happen.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: eldaec on January 06, 2005, 02:02:08 PM Quote from: Paelos Collision detection would remove most of the need for crowd control spells and actually create a use for tanks as protector units. Then again, it would piss off the majority of caster idiots in the game so it will never happen. Casters (and archers) would have by far the most to gain from collision detection. Imagine how much stronger Pbaoe boxes, or bolters behind tanks at choke points would become if the reaver bombs can't charge straight through enemy lines. The people who would lose out are the hybrids (esp reavers, valks, VWs etc), often having short range insta spells, they often do well charging through enemy lines to drop their instas on the squishies. (Note that only alb even have primary cc on a cloth caster) Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: trias_e on January 06, 2005, 04:33:35 PM If only I had a dollar for everytime someone who doesn't know what they are talking about starts bitching about DAOC crowd control. The most unbalanced the game has ever been other than the first few months was when tanks got determination and cheap RA's.
Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: chinslim on January 06, 2005, 09:26:54 PM Quote If only I had a dollar for everytime someone who doesn't know what they are talking about starts bitching about DAOC crowd control. The most unbalanced the game has ever been other than the first few months was when tanks got determination and cheap RA's. DUH. This is the problem we've been ranting about: instead of addressing fundamental problems with PVP mechanics such as crowd control, Mythic "fixed" the problem by adding on realm abilities such as Determination. So the end result was only tanks of a certain RR became desireable for groups and the crowd controllers were made to feel useless. Had Mythic bit the bullet and designed ubiquitous crowd control out of the game, they could have rebalanced the crowd control classes to make them useful in other ways. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: HaemishM on January 07, 2005, 08:40:47 AM Crowd control spells in PVP are WEAK CRUTCHES. Period. They are skillless, one button wins in most PVP games I've ever seen. They generally end up causing so many balances issues. First, you have to make sure someone can't be chain CCed, because that blows monkey balls to be stuck HELPLESS while being pounded on. Then, you have to put in increasing immunity timers. Or you have to give certain classes CC breaking powers, which usually work for shit. Then there are resists that need to be added, and the CC classes then bitch because they can't stop someone from pounding them into paste. So you give them instacast shit, or something equally stupid. Suddenly you have such a huge cluster fuck of complexities layered on upon the other that it's unmanageable. All because of one segment of spells.
Keep in mind, I'm not talking about things like roots or snares. I'm talking about those kinds of things that freeze a character, like mesmerization or charm or stun. You know, the stuff that makes you stand there like a zombie and take the ass pounding with no recourse. Not fun. Roots are fine so long as you can fight back and you aren't rooted long enough to be killed from full health to death before the root breaks. And in the end, the only reason CC spells are in PVP is to keep the casters from getting smeared without recourse, because they are all wearing the equivalent of cheesecloth. Double yay? Give avatars collision detection, and all of a sudden, tanks can protect casters without needing special abilities. You can build a wall around your casters. Melee has a purpose. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: sidereal on January 07, 2005, 05:37:07 PM Quote from: HaemishM Give avatars collision detection, and all of a sudden, tanks can protect casters without needing special abilities. You can build a wall around your casters. Kinda. You'd need either a threat radius algorithm or a 12:1 tank to caster ratio to prevent someone from just walking around the wall. I like the threat radius. If you want to ignore the tank and walk by to get to the caster, quintuple critical hit. Die. Or you can have stickiness like blockers in NFL games. Once you're 'engaged' on someone you have to struggle to get disengaged, and it's easy for them to stay engaged with you. Title: Daoc promises more nose choices, bigger zergs, and arena rvr Post by: trias_e on January 08, 2005, 06:10:45 PM That is a very interesting idea. An auto-block type assignment for tanks similar to linemen in football. Thats the only way I could ever see collision detection making any sort of impact on PvP. Other than grief of course.
As far as CC goes, it doesn't bother me in small amounts, but in certain PvP systems would not be needed at all. As far as DAOC goes, some CC was absolutely essential to keeping the game playable, which was the point. |