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Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 16, 2004, 01:49:30 PM
Sexson for 4/50- ugh
Beltre 5/65- HOLY SHIT!

I have an erection the size of the Space Needle right now. The Mariners might not suck total ass in 2005! I can't believe the front office actually grew a set and ponied up for some actual talent. I won't bitch as much about the $7.50 beers next season.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Rasix on December 16, 2004, 01:53:35 PM
The Diamondbacks overpaid for overrated players.  I still don't have a reason now to drive up for a game.  Troy Glaus, Russ Ortiz, Craig Counsell...
STILL MY BEATING HEART.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 16, 2004, 01:56:56 PM
Glaus at 11/per looks really bad when you see Beltre at ~13/per. Glaus has the better resume, but he is older and coming off an injury (which is precisely why I am not a big fan of the Sexson signing).


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: sidereal on December 16, 2004, 02:08:33 PM
HA HA


Being a Seattle sports fan is hot shit these days:

Seahawks: Lead the (admittedly horrific) division
Mariners: Signed Beltre
Sonics: Put that record in your pipe and smoke it, all ye prognosticating bitches.
Huskies F'ball:  Dropped Gilbertson for Tyrone Willingham
Huskies B'ball:  Nationally ranked.  2nd best team in the state.  

If we had an NHL team they'd end the lockout singlehandedly.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 16, 2004, 02:09:27 PM
Quote from: Rasix
The Diamondbacks overpaid for overrated players.  I still don't have a reason now to drive up for a game.  Troy Glaus, Russ Ortiz, Craig Counsell...
STILL MY BEATING HEART.

Screw driving up, I live here and won't cross town to see one of these games. I wish we had kept Wally Backman if only for the headlines.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: toma levine on December 16, 2004, 02:11:41 PM
Wait, what?
(checking MLB home page)
Ahh, dammit. As if the Dodgers needed to screw up their roster any more. Sure thing there, Depodesta. Let Beltre go, get rid of Lima and Finley, but sure as shit keep busted-up merchandise like Mayne and Penny. It's like watching Major League all over again, old beat up catcher and injured pitcher. Perfect team-up.

Oh yeah, keep ahold of that Alvarez guy, we need him to throw away a few more games next season.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 16, 2004, 02:15:10 PM
See, here's what I don't get.

Same team that wouldn't overpay Alex Rodriguez is now going to put over $100 million in 2 players? And where the fuck is Arizona getting all this bank? Didn't they claim to want to trade Johnson to get out from under his big contract?

And Beltre... watch out. In Seattle, I expect both he and Sexson's power numbers will plummet. Beltre may be a one-year wonder,since he never showed that much power/average before and was almost traded away in 2003. These signings look good on paper, but I'm not so sure.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 16, 2004, 02:22:27 PM
ESPN Radio is reporting that Tim Hudson just got traded...

to Atlanta.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Rasix on December 16, 2004, 02:26:06 PM
Millions of Red Sox fans cry out in agony...


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 16, 2004, 02:27:13 PM
Quote from: ESPN
Oakland traded right-hander Tim Hudson to the Atlanta Braves for two pitchers, left-hander Dan Meyer and right-hander Juan Cruz, and outfielder Charles Thomas on Thursday, the A's said in a press release.

Enjoy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892)


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 16, 2004, 02:37:20 PM
Well, the Braves needed a starter and apparently the A's needed an untested minor leaguer, a 5th outfielder and another shitty reliever. I assume the "jewel" of that trade was Meyer, as he was supposedly well-regarded. Cruz failed with the Cubs as a starter, and I don't think he was all that great in middle relief either.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on December 16, 2004, 02:38:29 PM
Quote from: Shockeye
ESPN Radio is reporting that Tim Hudson just got traded...

to Atlanta.

It's a sad day for Oakland A's fans. We knew the Big Three would be broken up at some point but it's still depressing.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: El Gallo on December 16, 2004, 02:44:20 PM
RIP Washington Nationals 2004-2004

Oh well, maybe this will be the Pirates' year.  Yeah, I know.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: SirBruce on December 16, 2004, 02:59:46 PM
The Cards, meanwhile, are wasting away in the off-season.  We lost Mike Matheny, Tony Womack, Woody Williams, Edgar Renteria, and now Tyler Johnson who was maturing nicely in AA.  Sure, the pitching staff is healthy, but if the Cardinals don't pick up at least one ace pitcher in this off-season, what are their chances of even getting to the WS again next season?

Bruce


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 16, 2004, 05:19:50 PM
I'm from Detroit. When we discuss major league baseball, it means one thing:

FUCK ALL OF YOU.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 16, 2004, 06:26:49 PM
Newsday is breaking some Randy news (http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-sprandy1217,0,3877851.story?coll=ny-homepage-big-pix):

Quote
The Yankees have reached agreement on the principal players in a three-team blockbuster trade that would land them coveted lefthander Randy Johnson, Newsday has learned.

A few details have yet to be worked out, but indications are they are not big enough obstacles to kill the deal.

The Yankees would receive the 41-year-old Johnson in the deal while sending pitcher Javier Vazquez and two minor-league prospects, catcher Dioner Navarro and third baseman Eric Duncan, to the Dodgers, according to an Arizona source. The Dodgers would send pitchers Brad Penny and Yhency Brazoban and outfielder/first baseman Shawn Green to Arizona to complete the deal.

I got no problem with this deal because AZ would receive Penny and Green and unload the Unit's contract.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on December 16, 2004, 06:27:12 PM
Quote from: HaemishM
Well, the Braves needed a starter and apparently the A's needed an untested minor leaguer, a 5th outfielder and another shitty reliever. I assume the "jewel" of that trade was Meyer, as he was supposedly well-regarded. Cruz failed with the Cubs as a starter, and I don't think he was all that great in middle relief either.

The thing about the Hudson deal is that Oakland at least got *something* from it. When their other big stars left they got nothing cause their contracts had expired. Hudson has another year on his contract with the A's but they knew they weren't going to be able to resign him so they "let him go" a year early so that they could at least get something in return.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on December 16, 2004, 10:38:49 PM
Oakland saved some money and got something back. But they're done now IMO. They missed their window.

The Yankees are getting older again, but Vasquez looked terrible last year. From what I have head the catcher they are losing is pretty good though. It's just another stop-gap solution. I wish they hadn't traded Ted Lilly.

The Sexson deal I don't get. Was injured and strikes out a ton. High potential to turn out terrible, as does Glauss. The DBacks got Sexson as a centerpiece of their offense and look how that turned out...


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Paelos on December 17, 2004, 07:28:48 AM
Quote from: Shockeye
Quote from: ESPN
Oakland traded right-hander Tim Hudson to the Atlanta Braves for two pitchers, left-hander Dan Meyer and right-hander Juan Cruz, and outfielder Charles Thomas on Thursday, the A's said in a press release.

Enjoy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892)


YEAH! Suck on that Kenrick!


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: doubleplus on December 17, 2004, 07:43:52 AM
But what does this have to do with ESPN NFL 2k5?


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on December 17, 2004, 08:12:35 AM
Quote from: Paelos
Quote from: Shockeye
Quote from: ESPN
Oakland traded right-hander Tim Hudson to the Atlanta Braves for two pitchers, left-hander Dan Meyer and right-hander Juan Cruz, and outfielder Charles Thomas on Thursday, the A's said in a press release.

Enjoy. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1947892)


YEAH! Suck on that Kenrick!


Feh... it's only 3 weeks until Carlos Beltran re-signs with Houston, prompting Roger Clemens to sign the line for 1 more year.  Wade Miller will hopefully be back in full form.  Brandon Backe and Brad Lidge really came into their own at the end of last year.  The only thing Houston's lacking pitching-wise is middle relief.  But hey, MICELI IS GONE TO JAPAN!  WOOT!

I look for the Cardinals to have a huge drop-off from their 2004 season.  The Cubs will be left without much offense and their pitching staff will have to shoulder the load.

The Braves should be pretty good as always, in a shit-ass division.  Oh yay, get excited!


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 08:22:53 AM
Shit, the Cubs could get rid of Sosa AND Alou, and if they bothered to learn what a fucking leadoff hitter is supposed to do, could STILL win the Central. If the people they got to replace the losses could actually, you know, play defense. The Cubs had more than enough offense last year, or would have, had they actually had a fucking table-setter getting on base.

Transcript of actual phone call:

"Hi guy! This is Jim Hendry!"

"Hi, Jim, what can I do ya for?"

"We're looking to trade Sammy Sosa."

*CLICK* Dialtone

Repeat 30 times.

"Hi, Omar! This is Jim Hendry."

"Hiya Jim, what can I do ya for?"

"DON'T HANG UP! We want to trade you Sammy Sosa."

"Hmmm, that's a thought, I like Sammy, and he could really bring in some fans and... hey look, Carlos Delgado!"

*CLICK*Dialtone

Sounds of weeping are heard all throughout Chicago

On to players teams actually want, Vazquez IS a good pitcher, but for whatever reason, he didn't put it together in New York. In Arizona, he might shine like he did in Montreal. I think he has Cy Young Stuff, but he may have a Turk Wendell brain. Green's best years are behind him. Penny would be a good pickup.

But I HATE the thought that the Yankees might have Johnson, Wright, Pavano AND Beltran. How do you compete with that?


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Paelos on December 17, 2004, 08:41:13 AM
Quote from: HaemishM
But I HATE the thought that the Yankees might have Johnson, Wright, Pavano AND Beltran. How do you compete with that?


Lawyers, guns, and a mound of high grade YA-YO!


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 08:49:33 AM
ATTACK OF THE JUICEHEADS!


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: UD_Delt on December 17, 2004, 11:01:48 AM
Wait, wait, wait....

Is this RICHIE Sexson getting over 10 million a year???!!!???

Man I must be really out of touch but when did a player who's never hit over .280 while playing full time in his career and strikes out over 25% of the time he comes to the plate become worth 12.5 mil/year? Not to mention he missed almost all of last season.

Man I really hated that guy when he was in Cleveland. Between him and Thome they really kept the crowd nice and cool on a hot day...


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2004, 11:14:09 AM
Haven't you heard? Home runs are much more important than number of strikeouts nowadays.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: SirBruce on December 17, 2004, 01:50:14 PM
Chicks dig the long ball.

Bruce


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Teleku on December 17, 2004, 04:03:31 PM
Quote
But I HATE the thought that the Yankees might have Johnson, Wright, Pavano AND Beltran. How do you compete with that?

Do you remember the team the Yankees fielded at the beginning of last season? How everybody was pissed and lost all hope? Then the Yankees lost. To Boston. That alone has given me faith there is a God.

Doesn't mean I still won't bitch and hate the Yankees, but they have proved that no matter how much money they spend on arrogant asshats, they can still lose.

In other related asshat news, Pedro is a Met.

.......hahahahahaha


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on December 17, 2004, 04:46:55 PM
Quote from: Teleku

In other related asshat news, Pedro is a Met.

.......hahahahahaha

Pedro could give Blizzard fanboys lessons in whining.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2004, 06:31:07 PM
Red Sox get Clement. (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20041217&content_id=923895&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp)

Quote
Right-hander Matt Clement, who became one of the most sought-after free agents this winter, on Friday agreed with the Boston Red Sox on a three-year deal that is believed to be in the range of $25 million.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Teleku on December 18, 2004, 12:05:39 AM
Quote from: Trippy
Quote from: Teleku

In other related asshat news, Pedro is a Met.

.......hahahahahaha

Pedro could give Blizzard fanboys lessons in whining.

And Bonds a lesson in arrogance.

Speaking of which, why, when I look down the long list of transactions, I only see one thing by the Giants for the whole page, and that is "Released A.J. Pierzynski"?  Our team has lost players every single year for the past few years, with nobody brought in to replace them.  Why the fuck won't our owners spend anything else on the team!!!!  We need at least one more big bat besides Bonds, not to mention the state of our pitching rotation.  We had really better get somebody this off season, I was so pissed when all those good players were up for grabs last year and we didn't even make an attempt.
Quote
Red Sox get Clement.

And it looks like the Yankees and Sox are building up for WW3 yet again ths year.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on December 18, 2004, 12:39:29 AM
Quote from: Teleku
Speaking of which, why, when I look down the long list of transactions, I only see one thing by the Giants for the whole page, and that is "Released A.J. Pierzynski"?  Our team has lost players every single year for the past few years, with nobody brought in to replace them.  Why the fuck won't our owners spend anything else on the team!!!!  We need at least one more big bat besides Bonds, not to mention the state of our pitching rotation.  We had really better get somebody this off season, I was so pissed when all those good players were up for grabs last year and we didn't even make an attempt.

The Giants have one of the highest payrolls in baseball (in the top ten for last year) so it's not like they are spendthrifts like the A's across the Bay. However they way they spend their money is annoying in that they aren't willing to pull the trigger on another superstar hitter to support Barry like you said. Can you imagine how even more eye-popping Barry's stats would be if somebody like Vladimir Guerrero, who they could've tried for last year but didn't, was batting behind or in front of Barry?


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 18, 2004, 12:55:51 AM
Quote from: Teleku
Speaking of which, why, when I look down the long list of transactions, I only see one thing by the Giants for the whole page, and that is "Released A.J. Pierzynski"?  Our team has lost players every single year for the past few years, with nobody brought in to replace them.  Why the fuck won't our owners spend anything else on the team!!!!


Quote from: CNNSI
12/13 Mike Matheny C Giants 3 years, $10.5 million


I think you've done fine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/11/15/freeagent.analysis/index.html) so far.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: SirBruce on December 18, 2004, 12:13:04 PM
Matheny is a really good catcher, and he'll help improve your pitching staff, but don't expect much in the way of a bat.  Some years he struggles to hit above .210.  He's managed to improve a little the past couple of years; his average is up around .250 and he'll rip a few doubles for you as well.  While I'm sorry to see him leave the Cards, he was always a weak spot in the lineup.

Bruce


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 18, 2004, 04:00:08 PM
St. Louis is a playah.

ESPN Radio just broke that St. Louis aquired A's pitcher Mark Mulder.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on December 18, 2004, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: Shockeye
St. Louis is a playah.

ESPN Radio just broke that St. Louis aquired A's pitcher Mark Mulder.


"Breaking News

Mulder to St. Louis

The Big Three is now down to one. ESPN's Peter Gammons reports A's ace Mark Mulder has been traded to the Cardinals for Danny Haren, Kiki Calero and Daric Barton. Earlier in the week, Oakland sent Tim Hudson to Atlanta."


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 18, 2004, 04:05:28 PM
Zito to Boston in 3... 2... 1...


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: SirBruce on December 18, 2004, 04:19:32 PM
Quote from: Kenrick
Quote from: Shockeye
St. Louis is a playah.

ESPN Radio just broke that St. Louis aquired A's pitcher Mark Mulder.


"Breaking News

Mulder to St. Louis

The Big Three is now down to one. ESPN's Peter Gammons reports A's ace Mark Mulder has been traded to the Cardinals for Danny Haren, Kiki Calero and Daric Barton. Earlier in the week, Oakland sent Tim Hudson to Atlanta."


Woohoo!

What's up with Oakland?  They're just throwing away all of their talent.  Oh well, who cares, at least we have another ace.

Now we need a better #3.

Bruce


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on December 18, 2004, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: Shockeye

ESPN Radio just broke that St. Louis aquired A's pitcher Mark Mulder.

W T F ?!?!?

*Sigh* It's going to be a long year next year.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 20, 2004, 09:51:51 AM
I was floored by the Mulder trade. I mean, those are decent relievers, but holy shit, they didn't get one starting prospect. Who the fuck is going to start for the A's this year? Zito, Harden, ????? I bet Eric Chavez is shitting bullets right now.

Pedro is a cock. Film at 11.

The Giants have done more than I thought, what with Vizquel and Matheny signings, both good defensive signings. But yeah, they need someone to hit behind King Juicehead.

I guess the Cubs will replace Clement with Ryan Dempster or Glendon Rusch. Not too much dropoff, which won't mean shit if they can't score runs consistently. Leadoff hitter, plzkthx. Fuck, get Alfonso Soriano or something.

You know, last year, looking at the Yankees at this time, it was scary. But then their pitching staff turned out to be sitting ducks, and by the time the playoffs came around, I wasn't sure they could beat anyone based on their shitty starting pitching.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shannow on December 23, 2004, 04:50:54 PM
Cant resist a good baseball thread.

- If the prospects the A's acquired work out Billy Beane will continue looking like a genius, he already has  a cpl of soon to be great arms in Harden and the other kid + Zito is still there. If they dont then everyone will forget the term moneyball.

- Beane was never gonna trade any of the big three to an AL team.

- I think Anaheim will miss Eckstein, he was the 'heart and soul' guy of that team. They are doing there best to be the YAnkees of the west though.

- Baseball ppl are rubbishing the LA GM for pulling out of the RJ deal. Wtf why? This was a horrible deal for LA, they were getting Javier V and a cpl of ordinary yankee prospects for Brad Penny, Shawn Green and Kaz Ishii...how were they ever involved in the first place??!??!?

- Arizone is talking of keeping Johnson for the start of the season if not the entirity of it. The Yankee rotation is looking rather ordinary without the Big Unit.

- Red Sox analysis. Heres the optimistic view - Clement pitches a little better, will get better run support and better bullpen help and will be a 16-18 game winner. Wells back stays healthy and wins 16 or so. Wade Miller , if his shoulder is alright could be the steal of the season hes a fantastic number 1A pitcher if healthy. Schillings ankle is alright. Also if Mantei is healthy they have another live arm to relieve Timlin of setup duty at times.
The lineup is virtually the same (Varitek has agreed to a 4 year/40mil deal today) with an improvement at SS with Rent-a-rear. Cabrera had a nice 3 months but Edgar will be a very nice hitter in the 2 slot. The rest of the lineup is back including a healthy Trot Nixon for a full season. They'll be a little weaker on the bench without Kapler and Roberts (though Payton will fill in altright).

Still there are a lot of ifs in that rotation, health and performance wise. If the ifs turn out good the Yankees are in a boatload of trouble, if they don't then the Sox are in a world of hurt.

Yankees - Lineup is practically the same, they'll score a lot of runs. Whether they come back in as many as they did last year remains to be seen (that was more from having some mediocre starting pitching against bad teams than great hitting). Rivera is a year older and who knows with that bullpen. The rotation is the interesting thing:

Yankees with Randy Johnson = better than the Red Sox.
Yankees without Randy Johnson = worse than the Red Sox.

Mussina has gotten worse each year and you never know which Moose will turn up month to month..the fantastic no.1 or the mediocre no 3.?

Will Pavano pull a Javier Vazquez? He's had one good year and has never pitched in the AL..He did peform well in the playoffs in '03 though. (He is overpaid at 10 mill, so is Clement, Benson, Ortiz and pretty much any pitcher who got signed this offseason. Stupid GMs, stupid owners.)

Jaret Wright? Kevin Brown? Javier Vazquez? ....HEH.


And lastly, bye bye Pedro, the Red Sox didn't disrespect you, your just a lying moron who cant keep his mouth shut. Trust me most people are not missing you up here, me particulary because of your complete inability to beat the Yankees in any game after June in the last 3 years.
If you'd just said 'The Mets made a better offer, I'll miss Boston but at the end of the day they came through with the dollars' we'd have been fine but you couldn't resist bullshitting and flat out lying to the press about how 'bad' the Red Sox disrespected you. Well bye, we'll enjoy watching you toss 85mph fastballs in '06 and having an era over 5.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 23, 2004, 04:53:44 PM
Kevin Brown likely won't pitch for the Yankees again. The rotation is decent. Vazquez has Cy Young stuff, but he just doesn't pitch well in NY and I don't get that. The Yankees offense might be better this year with Martinez at 1st and Womack at 2nd.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shannow on December 23, 2004, 05:10:54 PM
Um Womack and Martinez are not going to be that much better than Cairo and Olerud/Clark combinations and who knows how Sheffield will do without his clear and cream.

I wonder if Brown is going to just retire, Id doubt the Yankees will pitch him and no one is going to take that salary even if the Yankees are paying most of it.

Oh I did forget Beltran, now if he goes to the Yankees that will truely make that lineup scary.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 23, 2004, 09:01:38 PM
Womack has speed. The Cubs had him when he was injured, and had they kept him, he'd have been the leadoff hitter they lacked this year. Speed kills. Especially in front of those bombers.

What's the over/under on Giambi suiting up for the Yanks this year?


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on December 23, 2004, 11:11:43 PM
I think Giambi will play for the Yankees next year, and Brown will not.

Brown screwed the team with his hand-breaking idiocy, and he flat out sucked. I'm sure he's built up some ill-will and he never had a lot of buy-in to begin with.

Giambi at least had a couple years to develop a following, I'm sure they'll at least try to work him in somehow if he can come back at all. But with his health problems now who knows.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Madman on December 24, 2004, 06:44:20 AM
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

That was my reaction when I read the Cardinals signed Eckstein. I have no fear of the Cardinals this season because of Eckstein. He is a sub-par player no matter what his stats say. Sure he may have character, but character doesn't play the field.

Although I will admit that my bias against Eckstein is due to the reaction of someone drafting him in our fantasy game.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 10, 2005, 07:05:45 AM
Things not looking too good in Astroland right now.  It hurts a lot to lose someone like Carlos Beltran, but at the same time I'm not sure he's worth the $$$$$$$$$$ it would have taken to keep him.

What's also disappointing is that Roger Clemens' chances of returning are now next to nothing.  There's still a chance he'll come back (which would give us a respectable 1-2-3 punch of Oswalt--Pettitte--Clemens), but at this point it's not looking likely.

This has been the worst offseason in recent Astros history.  Lost Jeff Kent, lost Carlos Beltran, Lance Berkman blew out his knee playing flag football, and now Clemens is probably not coming back.  Opening day 2005 line-up looks something more like a rebuilding team than the team that was 3 innings away from the World Series in '04.

/sadf

With all that said, I'm going to laugh my ass off when Carlos Beltran realizes his slimeball agent got him to sign for SEVEN YEARS (NO TRADE!) with the Mets!  HAHAHAHA!  He's going to be miserable.  Maybe not this year, maybe not next... But eventually, he will be miserable at Shea.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shannow on January 10, 2005, 05:23:47 PM
Illl say July this year, about a month after Pedro fully tears his right shoulder labrum. Karmas a bitch huh petey.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on January 11, 2005, 11:14:57 PM
Derek Lowe, 9 million a year for 4 years. What a myopic signing. The guy is mediocre at best all year, then has a great post-season and regains all his value. Gotta hand it to his agent I guess.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on January 18, 2005, 09:02:28 AM
Sorry to necro this thread, but I missed it in the strep haze.

Beltran is going to FUCKING HATE the Mets. I'd say by July, when they are sweltering in the doldrums right above the Nationals and Beltran has less than 20 homers in the voluminous confines of Shea Stadium, he will be begging to get out of that shithole. Minaya is a smart GM, but I just don't think he's going to like it. The Mets made the same mistakes they always have; they tried to be the Yankees. Again. Rebuilding takes more than one year and a couple of not-quite-star-caliber rookies. Nobody really stood out on that team as an immediate star. Piazza can't play catcher and would be better going to the AL as a DH, Floyd is fragile, Reyes was hurt. Great, they got a great centerfielder who can hit for 30 HR power. That'll be upper-20 power in Shea. Whose going to set the table? Reyes? Maybe. Matsui? Bust. Pedro and Glavine are good for 6 innings, and then who do they go to? Bullpen isn't anything to write home about. Beltran will hate losing. Again.

Derek Lowe's agent is Scott Boras, king cocksucker of the agent world. How anyone still deals with this fucker is beyond me. You KNOW he's going to fuck you on the deal. Lowe got all that money on postseason glory, which is important, but not that important. The Dodgers aren't looking good this year.

And what the fuck is up with the Dbacks? Does anyone think all that money they spent is actually going to turn them around this year? Not without a miracle.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 18, 2005, 10:11:32 AM
Quote from: HaemishM
Scott Boras, king cocksucker of the agent world. How anyone still deals with this fucker is beyond me. You KNOW he's going to fuck you on the deal.


To elaborate:

Quote from: The Houston Chronicle
Did Carlos Beltran's agent play fair with the Astros?
News reports suggest Boras may have overstated bidding

By MARC A. LEVIN

Astros fans are understandably distraught by the departure of talented free agent Carlos Beltran after the team and city did everything conceivable to make Beltran and his family feel at home. In addition to being saddened, we should also be disturbed by the ethically and legally questionable conduct of Beltran's agent, Scott Boras.

There are now at least two reported incidents of Boras' allegedly deceiving the baseball teams with whom he has negotiated. Boras apparently told the Texas Rangers in 2000 that he had obtained an offer for star shortstop Alex Rodriguez for at least $200 million, but according to Atlanta Braves General Manager John Schuerholz, the highest offer at the time was the Braves' $150 million. The Rangers evidently bid against themselves, raising the final price tag to $252 million over 10 years, a contract that prevented the Rangers from fielding a competitive team around Rodriguez and ultimately led to his being dealt to the cash-rich Yankees.

In the last few weeks, Boras repeatedly told media outlets, and apparently the Astros, that he had five Beltran offers for at least $100 million. In fact, the Chronicle, ESPN and others have confirmed that only the Astros and Mets ever bid as much, and the Mets at the point of Boras' first utterance of this claim had apparently not even made their initial offer. These reports state that the Cubs topped out at $80 million and the other rumored teams — the Detroit Tigers, Seattle Mariners, New York Yankees and Baltimore Orioles — never entered the bidding.

If these reports are accurate, Boras arguably acted unethically in both instances. An attorney, Boras is subject to the ethical rules governing lawyers, even though his work involves negotiating deals, not appearing in court. The Texas Rules of Disciplinary Conduct, Rule 4.01 titled "Truthfulness to Others" states, in part, "In the course of representing a client, a lawyer shall not knowingly make a false statement of material fact to a third person."

If indeed Boras misrepresented his clients' offers to other teams and the media, it is hard to imagine he did so unknowingly, since as Rodriguez and Beltran's sole agent, he would necessarily know what offers they had and had not received. Although violating this rule could be grounds for disbarment in Texas, Boras is a member of the California Bar, where no such rule exists, meaning all the Texas Bar could do is deny him admission should he seek to practice here.

Beyond ethics, the legality of Boras' conduct can also be questioned. In Texas, the Deceptive Trade Practices Act (DTPA) prohibits making false or misleading statements in the course of selling a product or service, but because the Astros and Rangers have assets exceeding $25 million, they could not bring a claim. However, the Texas attorney general could initiate a DTPA claim on their behalf.

The Astros or Rangers could sue Boras for fraud. In Texas, to establish fraud, a party must prove: 1) that a material representation was made; 2) the representation was false; 3) when the representation was made, the speaker knew it was false or made it recklessly without any knowledge of the truth and as a positive assertion; 4) the speaker made the representation with the intent that the other party should act upon it; 5) the party acted in reliance on the representation; and 6) the party thereby suffered injury.

If the Rangers sued, they could claim injury for overpaying for Rodriguez, while the Astros' damages would be more nuanced. It is conceivable that, absent Boras' bluster about other offers, the Astros would have given Beltran an ultimatum to sign by an earlier deadline, realizing they had the only major offer on the table for some time. This would have forced Beltran's hand and, if he declined, at least have enabled the Astros to sign other quality free agents who are now unavailable.

Baseball executives are particularly vulnerable to being misled about the extent of other offers because they could be charged with collusion if they attempt to contemporaneously contact their counterparts to verify them. Remarkably, Boras' credibility is so low that some teams refuse to negotiate with him. Thus, Boras' best defense to a fraud claim might be that baseball executives know they cannot rely on the veracity of his statements.

To be sure, the blame goes well beyond Boras for the integrity deficit in both baseball and the corporate world. From steroids to revenue sharing, the players' union and owners have so far failed to ensure that the game is played on a level playing field. From Enron to WorldCom, millions of Americans have suffered financially as a result of deceptive statements.

While Boras is unlikely to face any ethical or legal repercussions, professional athletes should choose agents who negotiate in good faith and abide by basic rules of fair play. Like their clients, baseball agents are entitled to play hardball and swing for the fences, but they should refrain from making misleading pitches.

Levin, a former staff attorney for the Texas Supreme Court and law clerk for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit, is a lifelong Astros fan and an attorney at Potts & Reilly, L.L.P. in Austin.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: sidereal on January 18, 2005, 10:45:50 AM
Quote from: HaemishM
How anyone still deals with this fucker is beyond me.


All you good player are belong to him.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 18, 2005, 11:12:48 AM
Quote from: HaemishM
Beltran will hate losing. Again.


That's the part that gets me... Houston's been a winning (and classy) organization for 8+ years straight now (with the exception of 2000).  The Mets have a decent team every 5 or 10 years.  All of Beltran's talk about how important it was for him to be on a winning ballclub looks like a load of horse shit now.  It was always just about the money for him.

And when it came to Beltran... as a lifelong Astros fan I've never seen an entire city embrace a player so quickly the way Houston did with him.  I was at Game 4 of the NLCS vs. the Cardinals, and the atmosphere was electric -- especially when Beltran would bat.  I saw him hit that homer off that bitch Tavarez to seal the win, and the place blew up.  He had the city wrapped around his finger.. and he could have had that for the next seven years along with $105 million (with zero state income tax).

So why the hell would he chose to go play in that SHITHOLE in NY where the fans and media will surely have a love/hate relationship with him, where he will surely win less pennants than he would wearing brick and sand (sorry breaking into Astro speak now).

The whole thing just stinks to high hell.  But in the end, I laugh at him.  He'll soon be miserable, and the Astros will probably utilize their very good farm in the coming years to fill the gap in CF... for a FUCK of a lot less money. :)


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on January 18, 2005, 11:13:05 AM
It was well known even at the time that the Rangers were vastly overpaying for A-Rod compared to other offers. The idea was supposedly that Texas sucked so they had to overpay to lure him. In terms of monetary contract value Texas was over the next highest offer by 50 million and they knew it. ESPN knew it. Everybody knew it. Unless the Texas guys don't bother to read anything they knew it too.

Edit: Not to defend Boras at all, but he didn't trick the Rangers. They were just dumb.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Trippy on January 18, 2005, 03:13:45 PM
Quote from: Kenrick
That's the part that gets me... Houston's been a winning (and classy) organization for 8+ years straight now (with the exception of 2000).  The Mets have a decent team every 5 or 10 years.  All of Beltran's talk about how important it was for him to be on a winning ballclub looks like a load of horse shit now.  It was always just about the money for him.

Maybe the Astros should've offered him a no-trade clause.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 18, 2005, 07:08:19 PM
Maybe Borass shouldn't have first mentioned a no-trade clause 90 minutes before the deadline and then hung up the phone.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on January 18, 2005, 08:26:46 PM
Um, why do you think that the Mets offer kept going up even after the Astros deadline?  Boras was lying his ass off about other offers.  That is how he does business.  He sets his price before the off season starts and then he does anything to ensure that he gets his price.  Check what he said he would get for Beltran and then look and see who was willing to pay that price.  Boras used the Astros to get Beltran's wife to NY and to set the market for his client.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 21, 2005, 09:08:33 AM
Finally, some good news this off-season for Astros' fans (of which there is a grand total of 1 on these boards):

Quote from: Houston Chronicle
Barring a delay that would force Astros owner Drayton McLane to arrive to Houston later this evening, the club is set to announce a record deal with future Hall of Famer Roger Clemens, the Chronicle has learned.

The Astros will likely hold a press conference this afternoon to announce Clemens' signing. McLane, who was in a board meeting for Scott and White Hospital in the morning, was unavailable for comment. Astros general manager Tim Purpura has not returned calls to the Chronicle for three days.

Clemens' agents, Randy and Alan Hendricks, also were unavailable for comment.

Clemens, who won his record seventh Cy Young Award and first in the National League this past season, is due to get a steep raise from the $5 million he signed for last year.

He filed for a record $22 million in salary arbitration, $8.5 million more than the Astros' offer of $13.5 million, which also is a club record. But McLane on Tuesday said he was sure Clemens would not earn $22 million this year.

Nonetheless, Purpura said the negotiations would begin at the midpoint of the offers, $17.75 million, which eclipses the most ever earned by a pitcher in major-league history. The previous record was set last season by Pedro Martinez, who earned $17.5 million with the Boston Red Sox.

Clemens, 42, was the NL's starting pitcher in the All-Star game and finished last season with an 18-4 record. He led the majors in winning percentage and was among National League leaders in ERA (2.98) and strikeouts (218).


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on January 21, 2005, 10:04:06 AM
Um, Stros fan here also.

Now to sign another OF so that Biggio can stop being a statue and can sit on the bench where he belongs.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on January 21, 2005, 10:39:46 AM
Quote from: Nazrat
Um, Stros fan here also.

Now to sign another OF so that Biggio can stop being a statue and can sit on the bench where he belongs.


Heh, sorry I didn't realize!

Biggio shouldn't be benched yet, he's still got above average productivity at the plate.  But god damn he's a horrible outfielder!  Going to be very interesting to see how the line-up and defensive alignment for 2005 pans out, pre and post Berkman's return in May.

But with a rotation of Oswalt/Pettitte/Clemens/Backe/[?], it might not take astronomical (no pun intended) offensive numbers to have a good season.

edit:  Press conference at 2pm CST by the way.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on January 21, 2005, 01:39:26 PM
Actually, for an OF, Biggio has horrible offensive numbers.  They get worse if he has to play a corner OF.  Right now, Biggio's numbers are average for a 2B but he is now playing a slugging position.

Biggio should be the utility guy and pinch hitter and be used like Vizcaino not like an everyday player.

Lane is a solid corner OF but shaky in CF.  Berkman isn't a good CF either especially while recovering from a knee injury.  

The brass is hoping that Willy Tavares learns how to hit so that he can make the team out of spring training.  Unfortunately, his history shows that isn't hitting enough right now to play every day either.  

Astros may be stuck with a lumbering OF for at least one or two more years.  

On a positive note, Burke is a speedy 2b but without power.  Burke will bring a new dimension to the team that is similar to the Astros of old:  slap hitter with lots of speed.

It will be an interesting season.  I am still afraid that the Cardinals are better barring some season ending injuries.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on February 01, 2005, 11:53:06 AM
Looks like Sammy Sosa will be an Oriole (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1980524). Lot of good Cub-based Hot Stove talk there. Sosa gets moved for a decent second baseman with some baserunning speed and good defense, and a couple of minor leaguers. The Cubs get stuck paying for most of it.

But what I don't get is why the fuck the Cubs are interested in Jeromy Burnitz? Granted, he's a left hander with some pop, but he's also a strikeout machine. So was Sosa recently, so maybe that'll even out. There's also rumors of them going after Aubrey Huff (a good idea) or Eric Byrnes (bad idea - he's never produced consistently through a whole season). Maybe they can use Hairston as a leadoff guy, Patterson or Garciaparra hitting 2nd, Lee 3rd, Ramirez at cleanup and Burnitz 5th where he won't hurt them as much. After that you still have Barrett and whoever they get to play that last outfielder spot, maybe Hollandsworth. As long as the Cubs get more speed and defense, they still have the pitching to win.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on February 02, 2005, 06:01:23 PM
500th post!

Now where did I put my cream?

(http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Misc/WillieMays3.jpg)

And to make this post at least slightly on-topic, I'd like to say congrats to the Cubs fans here for finally getting rid of that assmonkey.  Unfortunately for the Cubs, the true source of the poison in your clubhouse is Dusty Baker.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on February 03, 2005, 08:34:11 AM
See, I don't know if Baker is the problem or not. After all, he managed to put together two winning seasons in a row, which no Cubs manager has done in my lifetime. I have hope for them this year, even though they just signed Jeromy "Strike Three" Burnitz to "replace" Sosa. If this Hariston kid can leadoff and stay healty, the Cubs got a shot. But I am personally glad to see Sammy go, and I was a huge fan. I'm even more happy to see Moises "It's the Umps" Alou go to the Giants. It makes the Giants a better team, but I'm sure the Umps will hate him there too.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on February 03, 2005, 08:47:49 AM
Hairston can be a base-stealing machine. Check out his numbers from 2 years ago before he was hurt. He was leading the AL in steals. Ha singlehandedly kept my fantasy team in the running for the first month.

His OBP percentage has improved a lot recently. I think he will be a very good leadoff hitter.

On the other hand, Burnitz is terrible. He's just a much worse version of Sosa. A guy who will hit the occassional HR and produce a ton of useless outs. It's not like he's a super power hitter either, I mean he'll hit 10-15 more home runs than Derek Jeter.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on February 03, 2005, 04:30:36 PM
You can't steal first base.  Hairston will be an average 2b for the cubbies.  If he plays OF for any significant time, the Cubs are sunk as he can't hit enough for the OF.  

Burnitz will keep the infield cool with all of the swinging strikes but he is at least a major league OF.  The Cubs are really hurting in the OF and their hitting overall is weak.  

The NL Central race is up for grabs unless the Cards figure out how to pitch.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on February 03, 2005, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Nazrat
You can't steal first base.  Hairston will be an average 2b for the cubbies.  If he plays OF for any significant time, the Cubs are sunk as he can't hit enough for the OF.  

Burnitz will keep the infield cool with all of the swinging strikes but he is at least a major league OF.  The Cubs are really hurting in the OF and their hitting overall is weak.  



Hairston hit over .300 last year! Burnitz is a joke. Look at his non-Colorado years. a .239 average. Year before that, .215! OBP hovering around .300. The guy is NOT a real major league OF. I'd take Hairston (who isn't one either) over Burnitz any day.

The Cubs need guys who can make contact, get on base, move runners, run the bases, etc. Burnitz is none of those. He;s a totally one-dimensional player. He'll give you 30-35 HRs and everything else will suck.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on February 04, 2005, 04:16:51 AM
You do understand that batting average is the least useful hitting stat in baseball.  On base percentage is much more important.  Slugging percentage is more important.  

Hairston's career OBP is .334.  That isn't good for a "leadoff" hitter.  Last year's .378 is good but it was the first time he performed that well.  The problem with Hairston in the OF is that you need slugging percentage from OF, 1B, 3B, anc C.  Hairston can't hit anything more than a single.  His Slugging percentage last year was .397 with a career average of .371.  THat is awful from any OF much less a corner OF.  Simply put, Hairston hits like a 2B not an OF.  If the Cubs can't find a better hitter to play OF, they won't score many runs.

Burnitz's lifetime on base percentage is .351 which is higher than the "leadoff" hitter mentioned above.  His lifetime slugging percentage is .491 which is at the low end of acceptable for an OF.  He has too many K's and not enough BB.  That is why he was still available for a song for the Cubbies to pick up.  

Burnitz does not have the speed of Hairston but hits better.  The Cubs need to have better players than both to win the pennant but Burnitz is an OF and Hairston needs to stay on the dirt.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Kenrick on February 04, 2005, 05:08:40 AM
This debate seems similar to the age old:  "Hey, what tastes better... dog poop or cat poop?"

Both suck.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on February 04, 2005, 08:38:25 AM
Batting average is UNDERRATED, not overrated. This is a pet peeve of mine. OBP is way overrated.

If you get a walk or get hit by a pitch, you don't advance a runner at second or third. If a runner was at second, you now set up a double play. In many situations, a hit is far far better than a walk.

Remember when the Angels won the Series? They did that based on high average hitting. Hits move runners. Guys go from first to third, and from second to home. And they give the other team a chance to choke on defense.

If you take out Burnitz' Colorado numbers (which you should always do when evaluating players) he's laughable. Yes, his Colorado numbers look better - don't fall into that trap.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Nazrat on February 05, 2005, 10:56:30 AM
This article (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562) explains it.

Quote
Basically, if a hitter is doing something that's completely out of step with the rest of his career, you should be skeptical and demand a larger sample before you buy into those reports that his stroke has been tweaked or how he's seeing the ball better since he started drinking liver smoothies. Sample size is a major principle to grasp, and you'll never look foolish by being roundly unmoved by what a player does in the first few weeks of the season.

That's not all that's wrong with batting average. As much as the .300 hitter is a lionized, what does that really tell us about a player? It tells us he got a hit of some kind in 30% of his at-bats. We have no idea what kinds of hits he got, and we have no idea how he fared in terms of reaching base by other means. We don't even know how many times he came to the plate.

When dealing with percentage statistics, having at least a rough idea of the number of plate appearances is essential. And as far as batting average goes, you can tell much more about a player if his average (AVG) is presented along with his on-base percentage (OBP) and slugging percentage (SLG).


You are in the minority on Batting Average.  Have you read Moneyball?


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Arcadian Del Sol on February 06, 2005, 08:49:55 AM
In baseball, there is only one thing that matters in regards to batting statistics - the ability to put contact of bat to ball. Nothing else matters.

I've watched Hairston Jr his whole career and he is a mediocre player when it comes to making the bat contact the pitch. He's a mediocre infielder, and he's an above average sprinter.

Which is why Baltimore wanted him - to run bases for its lineup of AARP sponsored power hitters. Along comes Luis Matos who can do everything Hairston does, minus the requisite 2 broken bones per season - and suddenly one of the best prospects in the game is the extra man in on the roster.

Sosa, Palmiero, Gibbons, Lopez.
Thank God Almighty I'm not a starting pitcher in the AL East. While Baltimore certainly isn't a game winning threat, what pitcher wants a win that sends his ERA so high, that we need satellites to track it? If nothing else, it will be fun to watch the bats go POP in Baltimore this season.


Title: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Margalis on February 06, 2005, 11:58:28 AM
Quote from: Nazrat
This article (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2562) explains it.

You are in the minority on Batting Average.  Have you read Moneyball?


I know I'm in the minority - that doesn't make me wrong.

That article is flawed. OBP is a good measure of how many outs someone creates, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

If there is a man on second and you get a walk with 2 outs, most of the time you aren't accomplishing anything. Baseball isn't just about avoiding outs, it's also about doing something active. (Of course, avoiding outs is always good)

There are so many situations where a hit is so much better than a walk. There are many situations where a walk is mostly useless. Man on third, two outs and you draw a walk...ok. The next guy behind is going to have to get a hit.

Another thing I would point out is that a lot of batters run up their OBP against some fairly poor pitchers. Mark Bellhorn is a great example of that. He runs into some good pitching and suddenly his high OBP dissapears. In the regular season against bad teams, you may be able to draw walks with just patience. Against good teams if you aren't a big threat to put the hurt on the ball you can't just sit there with your bat on your shoulder and draw walks. (Bonds may continue to draw walks, a guy like Bellhorn will not)

If I could choose adding +30 to a guys OBP (via walks and HBP) or +20 to his average I'd take the +20 every time. Again, the Angels won using that formula.

Walks are great, but sometimes you need a hit. You rarely if ever *need* a walk.

Edit: When Hairston got injured Roberts filled in for him and did a good job, that also helped make him expendable. I'm not arguing that Hairston is good - I'm arguing that Burnitz is terrible.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on February 07, 2005, 12:27:08 PM
Burnitz is bad, and I can see him causing me many antacid moments this season. Even if he's hitting 6th or 7th, he still will suck. I think Hairston can be what the Cubs need if he stays healthy; at the very least, he's more of what the Cubs need than Burnitz.

As for power, the Cubs still have Lee (over 30 HR), Ramirez (over 30 HR), and Patterson (20 HR and could probably hit more in a non-leadoff spot). Barrett could give you 15 HR, Garciaparra around 10 HR. The Cubs HAVE power, even without Burnitz's 25-30 HR. They do need table-setters. Hairston will be a better table-setter than they had all last year.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 23, 2005, 02:15:57 PM
(http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5193514_36_3.jpg)

The clean-shaven face of greed.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2005, 01:06:50 PM
/sadf

I'm just happy the Cubs got Juan Pierre, though a case could be made that Damon is more valuable. I'd have taken either.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: Shockeye on December 26, 2005, 01:08:48 PM
/sadf

I'm just happy the Cubs got Juan Pierre, though a case could be made that Damon is more valuable. I'd have taken either.

If Damon had gone to the Cubs, which would never have happened due to the amount of money demanded, he would've been very valuable. His long hair, beard and attitude would've helped keep things loose in a clubhouse that seriously needs it. But now he's just another corporate Yankees player.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 27, 2005, 11:18:45 AM
The Mariners signed-

A catcher who doesn't speak enough English to communicate with his pitchers
A washed up hothead who doesn't believe that dinosaurs ever existed
A run of the mill  pitcher whose low ERA is due mostly to luck instead of repeatable skills


Gonna be another long summer in Seattle.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 28, 2005, 10:22:09 AM
Cheer up. You could have signed Kevin Millwood as your #1 starter, then sobered up and realized he's a #3 at best.


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: WayAbvPar on December 28, 2005, 03:28:06 PM
They got Washburn instead, who if anything is even more mediocre than Millwood.

I think I will start running a pool on what date Everett first does something batshit insane. When does spring training start?


Title: Re: Hot Stove talk
Post by: HaemishM on December 28, 2005, 03:42:13 PM
I think I will start running a pool on what date Everett first does something batshit insane. When does spring training start?

2 days after Everett first does something batshit insane.