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f13.net General Forums => MMOG Discussion => Topic started by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 10:31:23 AM



Title: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 10:31:23 AM
Quote
June 09, 2009
TURBINE® ANNOUNCES DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE®: EBERRON UNLIMITED™
Free Digital Upgrade Introduces Unlimited Free Play and Raises Level Cap; Beta Begins Today

WESTWOOD, MA – June 9, 2009 – Turbine, Inc. announced today the start of the Beta program for Dungeons & Dragons Online®: Eberron Unlimited™ (DDO Unlimited), a free digital upgrade for Dungeons & Dragons Online®: Stormreach™. DDO Unlimited will raise the level cap and add major new content, as well as make the game free to play for everyone. The new DDO Unlimited delivers heart-pounding game play featuring the industry’s best combat system, a massive world with state-of-the-art graphics and gameplay, and a rich set of features that until now could only be found only in premium subscription-based MMOs. Launching later this summer, DDO Unlimited will introduce an innovative new pricing model that allows players to download and play for free, purchasing adventure packs, items, and account services a la carte from the new DDO Store, or to subscribe to get unlimited access to all of the game’s content. Players interested in getting a sneak peak of the new DDO Unlimited can sign up for a chance to participate in the Beta program at http://www.ddo.com.
 
“Our team has spent years crafting DDO Unlimited into a powerhouse experience featuring cutting-edge graphics, a kick-ass combat system, high level content, and cutting-edge social tools. Today marks a major milestone as we prepare to launch the world’s most exciting free MMO,” said Kate Paiz, Senior Producer.
 
“Turbine is blazing a new trail with an innovative new pricing structure that will deliver a new era of choice for the growing market of online gamers, and we are very excited to invite players to work with us in the DDO Unlimited Beta program as we redefine how people play and pay for MMOs,” added Fernando Paiz, Executive Producer.
 
DDO Unlimited delivers the best combat of any MMO and the most heart-pounding action this side of a keyboard, plus a lot more!

Brand New Content & Features – DDO Unlimited will deliver a new class, increase the level cap, introduce new adventure packs including a new 12-player raid, major combat improvements and more!

The Fiercest Combat – DDO Unlimited features an extraordinary and heart stopping combat experience that requires players to fully engage in the battle by relying on their wits and reflexes in real time. No more clicking skills and watching the action from the sideline.

Mind-blowing Visuals – Explore a vast and dangerous online world that features the most advanced graphics in the industry and is stuffed with the legendary monsters, glorious treasures, devious traps, mind-bending puzzles and endless adventures from the world’s best known RPG.

Full-featured MMO – Experience sophisticated systems found only in the best games including auctions, arena death matches (Player versus Player), NPC hirelings, gambling, crafting, and powerful social tools for finding a group, forming a guild or planning an epic raid!

Easier Than Ever! – DDO Unlimited gets you playing in minutes instead of hours, using new proprietary Turbine technology. Creating a new character is incredibly simple with guides and templates that speed you through the process. Features an all-new new player experience that gives gamers their first taste of excitement quickly while teaching them how to play solo or with a group of fellow adventurers.

Link (http://www.ddo.com/news/547-turbiner-announces-dungeons-a-dragons-onliner-eberron-unlimited)

D&D Online: Eberron Unlimited (http://pc.ign.com/articles/992/992921p1.html)

D&D Online: Eberron Unlimited


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 09, 2009, 10:40:42 AM
Huh.  I'll maybe sometimes play it for free.  Going to sign up under Bat Country.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 09, 2009, 10:56:01 AM
Yeah, and here I was waiting for Turbine to create it's own station pass to play this on the side.  There go my excuses.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 09, 2009, 11:04:01 AM
Has anyone played DDO recently? What's the skinny?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 09, 2009, 11:09:42 AM
Has anyone played DDO recently? What's the skinny?

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15619.0


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on June 09, 2009, 11:31:02 AM
Quote
DDO Unlimited will introduce an innovative new pricing model that allows players to download and play for free, purchasing adventure packs, items, and account services a la carte from the new DDO Store, or to subscribe to get unlimited access to all of the game’s content

I think I suggested that in beta. It's D&D, you make money selling the modules


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 09, 2009, 11:36:41 AM
Hells ya.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Slyfeind on June 09, 2009, 12:12:35 PM
Smart move. I am freaking sold.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Calandryll on June 09, 2009, 12:46:31 PM
Quote
DDO Unlimited will introduce an innovative new pricing model that allows players to download and play for free, purchasing adventure packs, items, and account services a la carte from the new DDO Store, or to subscribe to get unlimited access to all of the game’s content

I think I suggested that in beta. It's D&D, you make money selling the modules
Many of us who worked there suggested it too. Hopefully it'll revitalize the game.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 01:00:35 PM
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2009/06/ddovipimg82.jpg)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Evildrider on June 09, 2009, 01:07:08 PM
I used to love DDO, but after playing since launch and them stringing us along for 9 months with no new game updates.  I've been pretty meh on the game.

Mind you, if you are a newer player you'll have lots of fun, the PvE in the game is well worth the play time.  The game does have a steep learning curve when it comes to character generation and progression though.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 09, 2009, 01:25:22 PM
Limited chat?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on June 09, 2009, 01:27:00 PM
Oh, while not stated while snarking on their lack of foresight, I will almost certainly install it. I can very easily see getting together with old friends from EQ or DAOC to run a dungeon now and again.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Nevermore on June 09, 2009, 01:28:21 PM
I might take a look-see at this, once I have some more time.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 01:30:43 PM
Limited chat?

Gold farmers. If its like lotro, you cant send tells ETC...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: veredus on June 09, 2009, 01:42:44 PM
Limited chat?

Gold farmers. If its like lotro, you cant send tells ETC...

Unless it's to someone on your friends list. So it's not a bad solution actually.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 01:45:21 PM
Limited chat?

Gold farmers. If its like lotro, you cant send tells ETC...

Unless it's to someone on your friends list. So it's not a bad solution actually.

It has worked wonders in LOTRO.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 09, 2009, 02:11:33 PM
LotRO has full free-play accounts?  It's not like this is a trial.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 02:19:44 PM
LotRO has full free-play accounts?  It's not like this is a trial.

I was referring to some of the the free trial limitations.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ghambit on June 09, 2009, 03:44:03 PM
Do I get to keep my character if I unsubbed but come back under F2P?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 03:50:03 PM
Do I get to keep my character if I unsubbed but come back under F2P?

Yes. but you cant play for free till it launches.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ghambit on June 09, 2009, 03:59:08 PM
Y'know, I gotta admit I actually really liked DDO and only really stopped playing because of WoW and the fact my entire gaming community was playing it (WoW).  DDO is one of those games that you've really got to have a tight, structured adventure group to play with or else frustration sets in.

5 dedicated players a few times a week is perfect for this game.  This move was really smart imo, but there's still something missing... and that's a similar licensing system to the PnP game, where anyone can write content and sell it.  NWN picks up the slack there I guess, but it's a shame it cant all be contained under the DDO moniker. (and lo and behold NWN is trying to go online now also)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 09, 2009, 04:44:56 PM
Yeah, I loved DDO also.  I only quit because the other people I played with quit on me.  The game isn't much fun without a dedicated static group.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xilren's Twin on June 09, 2009, 06:09:22 PM
I am still playing primaily my capped toon.  I need like 120 more favor points to unlock my 32 point builds, but keep getting dragged into shroud raids to try and finish my greensteel crafting.  I think i have about 60 quests i havent touched at all, which was almost the sum total of quests in the game at launch.  Not happy about the further delay in mod 9.  Turbine apparently was restrained from saying why the mod was dragging months behind schedule until this announcement.  Even now, people are still pissed that they are delaying again for the marketing push on the free to play.  People understand it, but really poor job of community relations in the time it took to get to today.  Probably the legal departments fault somewhere.

I think i will try to get into the beta of this to see the new stuff.  Not really sure what they will be selling in the turbine store, so hard to say if the F2P plus microtransactions will be better than a flat monthly fee yet.

If i get in, ill be under an NDA  :nda: but still worth checking out.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Tannhauser on June 09, 2009, 06:50:36 PM
Taken from the interview...

"DDO is taking the new approach because Turbine felt it's the right title to explore free-to-play MMOs and microtransactions. Not only does the concept of paying for additional content adhere to the pen-and-paper game's reliance on modules, sourcebooks, miniatures, and such, but it also helps players who don't have as much time to play a chance to stay competitive with their friends by purchasing XP boosts and improved adventuring gear."

Holy crap.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 09, 2009, 08:10:38 PM
Bets on the new class being Druid or Warlock?

My money is on Warlock.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 09, 2009, 08:56:58 PM
It turns out I forgot to unsubscribe from the last time I poked around in here (early this year) so I have a VIP beta key.  :awesome_for_real: I guess they get one more month out of me, I can't put it in if I cancel.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 09, 2009, 09:09:23 PM
Rumor I read was Favored Soul, and I have to agree with it.  It'd be easier to add than either the druid or warlock, not much in the way of custom rules that aren't already in place for the sorceror.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ghambit on June 09, 2009, 09:17:47 PM
Taken from the interview...

"DDO is taking the new approach because Turbine felt it's the right title to explore free-to-play MMOs and microtransactions. Not only does the concept of paying for additional content adhere to the pen-and-paper game's reliance on modules, sourcebooks, miniatures, and such, but it also helps players who don't have as much time to play a chance to stay competitive with their friends by purchasing XP boosts and improved adventuring gear."

Holy crap.

That last bit is a dealbreaker.
It's one thing to charge for modules, but to fall into the f2p trap of paid acceleration/gear just kinda takes the whole feel of D&D away.
Why dont they just charge to run the damned zones??  Just like they do in league play... lay some money down to increase the tension.  I think it'd add a nice feel to the game; almost like a bunch of guys slipping quarters into the local arcade's Gauntlet machine.  (sigh)  the greed...   :heartbreak:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: lesion on June 09, 2009, 09:49:59 PM
The deal cannot be broken. You can play for free. If you want to buy XP boosts and flaming elephant chariots and support Turbine you can. If not...you don't have to! That is the deal.

The main reason I didn't pick up DDO after beta was because I was playing WoW and two concurrent game fees makes me frothy. This is dandy.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 09, 2009, 09:51:02 PM
The deal cannot be broken. You can play for free. If you want to buy XP boosts and flaming elephant chariots and support Turbine you can. If not...you don't have to! That is the deal.

The main reason I didn't pick up DDO after beta was because I was playing WoW and two concurrent game fees makes me frothy. This is dandy.

Basically how i feel. I think it was a good move for them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 09, 2009, 09:52:22 PM
Rumor I read was Favored Soul, and I have to agree with it.  It'd be easier to add than either the druid or warlock, not much in the way of custom rules that aren't already in place for the sorceror.
That would be pretty easy to add.  I wonder if they'll give them wings at higher level.  Does DDO have flight?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: squirrel on June 09, 2009, 10:55:05 PM
Bets on the new class being Druid or Warlock?

My money is on Warlock.

Will they bungle it as badly as NWN II did?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: CmdrSlack on June 09, 2009, 11:19:17 PM
Wow, this may make DDO without a static group worth it. It may also get my old static group back from WoW.

Starting over would be worth it just to see the new new player experience and whatnot.



Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Rendakor on June 10, 2009, 01:43:10 AM
Do we still have to buy the box? I'm a huge D&D fan but DDO didn't seem worth the price of entry. Going f2p might make this worth trying out.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Arthur_Parker on June 10, 2009, 01:52:05 AM
I'm interested to see how they handle advertising LOTRO to the free DDO players.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Tarami on June 10, 2009, 03:02:54 AM
Billboard ads for resorts in Gondor?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xilren's Twin on June 10, 2009, 06:02:09 AM
In talking to some guildies last night, not only will the store have Races, Classes, Levels and Modules... but the aforementioned experience boost potions, healing pots, Rest shrines (portable rest shrines for a group would be cool!), resurrection stuff, plus teleportation and movement stuff, and dress up stuff.

The real question for me is cost; vip accounts get 500 points a month.  What does that equal in terms of microtrans dollars spent, and what can you afford with that?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 06:57:15 AM
Do we still have to buy the box? I'm a huge D&D fan but DDO didn't seem worth the price of entry. Going f2p might make this worth trying out.

I'm thinking no.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: DLRiley on June 10, 2009, 07:34:42 AM
I'm interested to see how they handle advertising LOTRO to the free DDO players.
advertising:

LOTRO remained a marginally successful game, DDO didn't, LOTRO is for winners.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 07:44:56 AM
In talking to some guildies last night, not only will the store have Races, Classes, Levels and Modules... but the aforementioned experience boost potions, healing pots, Rest shrines (portable rest shrines for a group would be cool!), resurrection stuff, plus teleportation and movement stuff, and dress up stuff.

The real question for me is cost; vip accounts get 500 points a month.  What does that equal in terms of microtrans dollars spent, and what can you afford with that?

I don't know, but if it makes you feel any better, the 500 is monthly and stacks/rolls over.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 10, 2009, 10:00:15 AM
Bets on the new class being Druid or Warlock?

My money is on Warlock.

Will they bungle it as badly as NWN II did?
I don't think that is possible.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 10, 2009, 10:33:46 AM
The real question for me is cost; vip accounts get 500 points a month.  What does that equal in terms of microtrans dollars spent, and what can you afford with that?
How much is 500 points worth? Well, lets say it's july 24th at 8PM ET. July is the seventh month, I believe neptune occludes jupiter, it's still daytime in pacific standard time, the mets won their last home game... umm.... carry the three... got to account for rush hour traffic on route 101... my calculations come out to about three dollars and seventeen cents. Now of course if you decide to subscribe to their points discount service for $5/month (or $14/3months, or $55.99/year) you get to subtract 0.1% of the DOW multiplied by the fig newton constant from each US$20 minimum point pack, so assuming the economy has flattened out and the DJIA is still around 8500pts, 500 points could be purchased for slightly under three bucks online. Of course if you're lucky gamestop may have a coupon, and you could get them for even less.

Hope this clears things up for you!


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 10:36:00 AM
So about treefiddy?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 10, 2009, 10:37:37 AM
Well if you want to round off, sure. Me, I heart precision.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Morfiend on June 10, 2009, 11:06:35 AM

The real question for me is cost; vip accounts get 500 points a month.  What does that equal in terms of microtrans dollars spent, and what can you afford with that?

A friend tells me one extra character slot costs 595 points.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Evildrider on June 10, 2009, 11:18:00 AM
Bets on the new class being Druid or Warlock?

My money is on Warlock.

The new class is Favored Soul.  Basically what Sorcerer is to Wizard, Favored Soul is to Cleric.

I'm not in the beta so I'm not breaking any NDA.  I made a guess about the class on the forums and my thread was deleted.   :drill:

Basically I knew if they were giving us another class it had to be one with little work involved.  lol.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 11:24:04 AM

The real question for me is cost; vip accounts get 500 points a month.  What does that equal in terms of microtrans dollars spent, and what can you afford with that?

A friend tells me one extra character slot costs 595 points.

Meaning items are 1/3 of that.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Evildrider on June 10, 2009, 11:25:13 AM
Remember all the points and stuff are still being scaled as is the amount that VIPs will get on a monthly basis.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: rattran on June 10, 2009, 12:15:34 PM
Not free for you EU types! No Free Soup in Europe! (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/no-free-to-play-model-for-dungeons-and-dragons-online-in-europe)

Guess Codemasters is playing a 'wait and see if there are moneyhats' game.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 12:35:02 PM
Codemasters are dumb, and not just for this. If you play anything run/managed/or overseen by codemasters, you are a 2nd class citizen in every meaning. It is astounding they are still profitable and that people deal with them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 10, 2009, 01:57:26 PM
DDO goes F2P: An interview with Turbine (http://www.massively.com/2009/06/10/ddo-goes-f2p-an-interview-with-turbine/#continued)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 10, 2009, 03:54:02 PM
I will at least download this and poke around. If/when it goes live we should get a Bat Country Dungeon crawl together.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: UnSub on June 10, 2009, 07:23:12 PM
First few levels DDO is fine to solo.

But you need a consistent team if you are going to last. Even pugging is a bad idea - they tend to be speed runs to the end because the typical people who play DDO have done those early dungeons many, many times.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Evildrider on June 11, 2009, 03:55:35 AM
First few levels DDO is fine to solo.

But you need a consistent team if you are going to last. Even pugging is a bad idea - they tend to be speed runs to the end because the typical people who play DDO have done those early dungeons many, many times.

After the new Unlimited thing goes live, dungeons will scale with the amount of people that go into them.  This will not effect Elite difficulty though.

So if you go into a quest solo, the dungeons will be a bit easier.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: PalmTrees on June 12, 2009, 07:05:13 AM
First few levels DDO is fine to solo.

But you need a consistent team if you are going to last. Even pugging is a bad idea - they tend to be speed runs to the end because the typical people who play DDO have done those early dungeons many, many times.

Yeah, I ran into that when I tried the free trial some time ago. Really felt like a fifth wheel as my twinked out teammates just blazed thru things while I lagged behind. Hm, wonder if my free trial chars would still be there.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 12, 2009, 10:58:29 AM
Hell, when I played DDO in the beta I had the exact same experience. At level 1. Really turned me off the game.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: UnSub on June 13, 2009, 02:12:16 AM
I can't use my trial character - he was Warforged.

Given that I'd want to play a Warforged Monk in order to test out how things play, I don't think I'll be going back to DDO.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Furiously on June 13, 2009, 01:58:39 PM
DDO is pretty idealic as a weekly dungeon crawl with friends. They should have an online party match system and give bonuses for each week you adventure with them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xurtan on June 14, 2009, 11:24:13 PM
Now that would make me play it. Assuming you could search for groups with like minded individuals. DDO always looked vaguely interesting, but I hate to solo; and it always came across as a game you needed a static group for.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Righ on June 15, 2009, 12:03:09 AM
Assuming you could search for groups with like minded individuals.

It's an MMO. Assume "enjoys being rewarded for repeating unchallenging content, socially awkward enough that a party matching system seems like a good idea, eager to tell Chuck Norris 'jokes' in global chat". If that's like-minded, you'll get many matches.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 15, 2009, 09:21:49 AM
Bat Country will do better in DDOU because there will be no need to sub so people can come and go as they please.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 15, 2009, 09:34:17 AM
It'll still last a month at best. ;D


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Tmon on June 15, 2009, 09:35:26 AM
The actives will out level the casuals and the casuals will become ever more casual and just drift away.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 15, 2009, 09:42:17 AM
It'll still last a month at best. ;D
WAR BC lasted a mouth.  DDOU BC can do better.
I understand about the casuals, but no sub will help since causal can come and go as they please and not worry about justifying their sub.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 15, 2009, 09:53:50 AM
I find your lack of cynicism disturbing.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Morfiend on June 15, 2009, 10:52:32 AM
I find your lack of cynicism disturbing.

I think its cute.  :wink:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 15, 2009, 10:57:38 AM
I just don't think the length of time the BC is active is primary indicator of success. BC in WAR only lasted a month before failure cascade.  But not surprisingly, it coincided with free month ending and the general realization "The grind is bullshit."  I don't see BC failing because some flaw in the community flaw but because WAR sucked ass.  Regardless that one month was pretty sweet.  Running scenarios, taking keeps, running PQs with f13ers was lot fun even if the game itself was deeply fucked up.  Even if BC DDOU online only lasts a couple weeks, it'll be a good couple of weeks.  Unless you already have an established guild playing DDO, what's the harm in hooking up BC?  And it may help a bit with everyone has everything memorized problem since I don't think most of us do.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on June 15, 2009, 12:54:55 PM
I just don't think the length of time the BC is active is primary indicator of success.

It's not an indicator of the game, rather an indictment of the community.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 15, 2009, 01:01:23 PM
I just don't think the length of time the BC is active is primary indicator of success.

It's not an indicator of the game, rather an indictment of the community.
If people have fun, why does it matter if Bat Country live 3 weeks, 3 months or 3 years?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 15, 2009, 01:38:22 PM
I think the name Bat country, is simply doomed to being a Temporary guild in any game. With a life span of one month.




That, or we are just to diverse a group of gamers. That could not be it though.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on June 15, 2009, 01:42:41 PM
The irony of this discussion is that BC in EVE, the people having the least amount of fun, have lasted the longest.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 15, 2009, 01:43:18 PM
Least amount of fun? lol


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Kail on June 15, 2009, 02:11:27 PM
Least amount of fun? lol

Actually, if you'll check this flowchart here, I think you'll find that it clearly shows a 2.27% increase in fun-related activities.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: tazelbain on June 15, 2009, 02:21:05 PM
BC EvE merged into an uberguild.  Not complaining, this is probably the idea solution.  Allows them to meet there objective(be apart of End Game) and play together. Zombie Bat Country is also what the Lotro folks are doing.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 15, 2009, 02:59:34 PM
If people have fun, why does it matter if Bat Country live 3 weeks, 3 months or 3 years?
It doesn't whatsoever.  I've enjoyed playing with BC people when I've been able to.  I was only saying don't expect it to last because we're a flighty bunch.

Also poking fun at our tendancies, thus the ;D.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on June 15, 2009, 03:13:53 PM
Least amount of fun? lol

I guess we need to start using green again...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 15, 2009, 03:20:35 PM
Least amount of fun? lol

I guess we need to start using green again...

Yeah, I am very bad with the sarcasm.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Furiously on June 15, 2009, 04:24:19 PM
Isn't it 3 years for BC in EVE?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on June 16, 2009, 07:45:28 AM
Just over 3 years. December 05 is when they first opened shop.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Morfiend on June 17, 2009, 01:48:20 PM
My friend just found out the point costs. I don't know if they are under NDA or not. I can post the point buy prices, or just my opinion of them if I am allowed.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 17, 2009, 02:20:48 PM
I'm going to take a big, educated guess and say your friend just learned them from beta.  I wouldn't post even your opinion unless you can link to a dev revealing them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xilren's Twin on June 17, 2009, 06:24:46 PM
 :nda:

And of course, any information you currently have could change quite a bit by the time this goes live.  Im thinking 6 months minimum but thats just a guess


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 17, 2009, 06:56:36 PM
It won't be six months, pretty sure the devs said this summer, sooner than later.  I'd be surprised if it wasn't out within the next month, that game is just going to bleed people with this change who suddenly have no reason to keep subscribing with it going to this model, and they'll need the influx of new money to keep the servers afloat.

I'm still really confused as to why it's even got an NDA, other than to possibly hide the cash shop prices, when they're letting in nearly every subscriber and whatever chunk of the populace signs up.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Nerf on June 19, 2009, 03:42:07 AM
I've got a couple of level 16s, but i'd gladly make a noob to roll with f13 when this goes free, DDO was great fun until I hit the cap and it was just grinding for random drops.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 08:13:34 AM

Source (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/163/feature/3178/page/1)

(http://images.mmorpg.com/features/3178/images/3178_2.jpg)

(http://images.mmorpg.com/features/3178/images/3178_5.jpg)

(http://images.mmorpg.com/features/3178/images/3178_9.jpg)

(http://images.mmorpg.com/features/3178/images/3178_8.jpg)

(http://images.mmorpg.com/features/3178/images/3178_4.jpg)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Brogarn on June 19, 2009, 08:44:40 AM
I don't know if I could ever do micro transactions. It just seems like it takes away from the game. Like, so you're playing a Drow. BFD, you obviously have more disposable cash than me. Nothing special about it at all.

Eh... or maybe its just something I'd have to get used to.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 08:50:38 AM
Most, is just unlockable content. Like the original DnD.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Brogarn on June 19, 2009, 08:52:49 AM
Most, is just unlockable content. Like the original DnD.

Huh. That's actually a pretty good way to put it. Perspective I guess.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on June 19, 2009, 08:53:43 AM
For whatever reason that kind of microtrans doesn't bother me at all. It's when you buy your axe that it bothers me. And selling in game acquisitions a la classic RMT I absolutely loathe. Opening up races and locations is already something that is unlocked through an expansion, so why not split it all up. I'm never going to play a fay or a sarnak in EQ2, I'd happily have had them sell me the content of the expansion for $15 and save me the $5 for the new race.

I didn't see a points/dollar. Is it the usual 1 point = 1 cent?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 09:18:19 AM
Most, is just unlockable content. Like the original DnD.

Huh. That's actually a pretty good way to put it. Perspective I guess.

Yep, quite sure I spent more than 40$+ on a book, just about the Drow. Same thing to me. Now, if I could only play a Drider (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sx_gallery/98380.jpg)...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Brogarn on June 19, 2009, 09:24:35 AM
For whatever reason that kind of microtrans doesn't bother me at all. It's when you buy your axe that it bothers me. And selling in game acquisitions a la classic RMT I absolutely loathe. Opening up races and locations is already something that is unlocked through an expansion, so why not split it all up. I'm never going to play a fay or a sarnak in EQ2, I'd happily have had them sell me the content of the expansion for $15 and save me the $5 for the new race.

I agree with everything you said there. Mr BW's point about expansion D&D books opened my eyes about that and you've expanded on that further. And the axe thing gets under my skin as well. It's like circumventing the game at that point. Why bother?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 10:13:39 AM
Mr BW's point about expansion D&D books opened my eyes about that and you've expanded on that further.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/A1SlavePitsCover.jpg)

 :grin:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 19, 2009, 11:01:33 AM
I agree with everything you said there. Mr BW's point about expansion D&D books opened my eyes about that and you've expanded on that further. And the axe thing gets under my skin as well. It's like circumventing the game at that point. Why bother?

This is the point where I just say go play DDO and you'll quickly understand why anyone who actually buys cash shop equipment is a moron.  The only time someone might get that desperate is if they've had utterly no luck getting a specific weapon type.  Even in that case they still lose, given that +1 bane weapons are handed out like candy even in the starting areas, and it quickly ramps up from there.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 11:39:35 AM
Um, are we talking about a hypothetical cash shop axe? Because I personally have not confirmed they are selling gear at all.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 19, 2009, 11:46:06 AM
I was talking in generalizations.  DDO as it is nowadays, and I was mucking with the trial a few days ago due to this announcement, drops loot at almost a diablo like level.  I vended far more than I ever used.  You get TONS of weapons and pieces of armor, of varying types and stats.  Some from chests, some from quest rewards, some from collection turn ins.  Anything of moderate use is readily available.  If equipment is going to be sold in a cash shop in that game, I'll laugh long and loud to their face if someone actually buys it.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 19, 2009, 11:51:26 AM
I was talking in generalizations. 

Ah, got ya. Just trying to keep us on track here.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Morfiend on June 19, 2009, 12:00:30 PM
I didn't see a points/dollar. Is it the usual 1 point = 1 cent?

No.

I have the point values, but I do not know if that is NDA or not.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 19, 2009, 01:58:31 PM
1 point = 1 cent wouldn't be usual at all; that would be uncommonly consumer-friendly. The raison d'être of the microtransactions points system is to distract customers from thinking in terms of currency by abstracting costs to "funny money". I would expect 100 points to cost something like 80 cents.

Just in case I guessed it dead on, I'm not in the beta or under NDA.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 19, 2009, 02:55:44 PM
It wouldn't be 80 cents.  That's makes the math in the customer's favor.  It'd be in the other direction.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 19, 2009, 03:13:27 PM
That's the idea. If it costs more, then 500 turbine points is over five bucks. How much over? Who knows, but over. You want to decouple funny money from real money. That's the whole point of well, points.

FYI, microsoft points on xbox live are 80 to the dollar. That's where I got the number.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: schild on June 19, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
I never buy anything that costs funny money, nor will I ever. Nor will I ever endorse it. Real money or bust. I don't care whether there's a good argument or not. Any company that wants to do this can shove their spacebucks right up their ass.

Microsoft drove me to this, btw. I'm going to have 200 points left in my dead XBL account Forever.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 19, 2009, 03:23:33 PM
Yes, funny money is blatantly anticonsumer, and the comments here in what's supposedly a fairly savvy audience of "1 penny = 1 point like usual" and "but it'll be more per point, not less, amirite" drive home just how effective it really is. Scummy.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 19, 2009, 03:24:02 PM
The whole point is a psychological trap.  Making the dollar value below the point value makes it look to the customer that they're paying more than they really are.  Do it the other way around, and it makes it feel like you're paying less.  That's where the trap and the money lies.  Making you pay more than you thought you did, without you realizing it.

edit:  and no, I'm not defending it.  I hate anything token based, and I really hope that it's 1:1.

Also, this only applies to using numbers that look like dollar amounts.  The other trap is an actual token based system completely decoupled from currency values, like arcades liked to use.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 19, 2009, 03:51:26 PM
They also force you to buy a minimum to hold a balance.

Schild didn't set out and purchase 200 points, he probably bought 2000 for $24.99, then (for example) picked up a fallout3 expansion for 800 points, some viva pinata flower seeds for 600 points, a supercharged volvo in project gotham for 400 points, and had 200 left over with nothing but worthless themes and avatar accessories to spend it on. So microsoft gets to keep his $2.50 forever.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on June 20, 2009, 08:07:52 AM
Microsoft drove me to this, btw. I'm going to have 200 points left in my dead XBL account Forever.

I  :heart: SONY

:awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Pezzle on June 20, 2009, 09:25:32 AM
Buy a DDO sealed box now for less than $5.  Enjoy free month subscription? (DDO has that, right?).  When DDO goes free to play you will have many advantages of a former VIP.  4 character slots instead of 2, unlimited cash storage, chats etc.  If the swap happens during your free box period you might even get the 500 points.  

*edit*

Those benefits are permanent on your account as of the most recent announcement I found.

*edit 2, The quest for content*
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185146

First post has the upgrade/downgrade/upgrade info.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: sam, an eggplant on June 20, 2009, 10:48:38 AM
Sure, why not? I just picked up the game new in a sealed box for $0.01 and $2.99 shipping from an amazon affiliate.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Rendakor on June 21, 2009, 12:45:44 AM
The other trap is an actual token based system completely decoupled from currency values, like arcades liked to use.
Am I the only one who's arcade tokens were exactly worth (and shaped like) $0.25? They were just quarters you were commited to spending in the arcade; I never put a dollar in an arcade token machine and got out 5 (or 3, or 42) coins.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Evildrider on June 21, 2009, 04:45:59 PM
The other trap is an actual token based system completely decoupled from currency values, like arcades liked to use.
Am I the only one who's arcade tokens were exactly worth (and shaped like) $0.25? They were just quarters you were commited to spending in the arcade; I never put a dollar in an arcade token machine and got out 5 (or 3, or 42) coins.

I used to work at an Alladin's Castle, when it was owned by Bally Midway.  We used to give out 4 tokens on the dollar.  With more extra tokens if you bought larger amounts.  Like if you bought a $5 dollar roll you would get 25 tokens.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 22, 2009, 08:38:09 AM
You know whats funny, those that seem to be hateing on this move for DnD online must be part of that breed of DnD player that couldn't fart with out looking up the Thaco of the pants they have on and "NEVER EVER FUDGED ANYTHING ON MY CHARACTER SHEET"  :why_so_serious:

I'm seeing some BS reasons to hate on the original premise of DnD, to have fun. (Not here, around)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Hawkbit on June 22, 2009, 08:52:41 AM
THAC0 is sooooo 2nd edition.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 22, 2009, 09:04:04 AM
THAC0 is sooooo 2nd edition.

Guess i'm old then. Maybe this is why some people are having such issues accepting that DnD is the king of purchased content.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Hawkbit on June 22, 2009, 09:22:48 AM
I'm old too.  I played DnD in high school under 2nd edition.  When 3rd came out I bought a couple handbooks, but lost all my pnp friends and didn't really care for the new rules. 

But yeah, DnD has always been about purchased content.  One could spend thousands on the books and modules that are released for each edition.  The video game is no different.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 22, 2009, 11:04:59 AM
Does that make me ancient by playing 1st Ed in high school? :|

Maybe I'm a lich and my original-cover MM is my phylactery. :drillf:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 22, 2009, 11:12:43 AM
I used to work at an Alladin's Castle, when it was owned by Bally Midway.  We used to give out 4 tokens on the dollar.  With more extra tokens if you bought larger amounts.  Like if you bought a $5 dollar roll you would get 25 tokens.

I was talking places like Dave and Busters that tend to run off of cards instead of physical tokens, so they can play games with the actual amount you get, as well as charging wildly varying amounts of tokens for different machines.

THAC0 is sooooo 2nd edition.

I miss THAC0, it was such awesome needless complication.  I remember having to keep a chart in front of me because I was too lazy to do the backwards math on it.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 22, 2009, 12:40:23 PM
Does that make me ancient by playing 1st Ed in high school? :|

Maybe I'm a lich and my original-cover MM is my phylactery. :drillf:

3 more birthdays and I'll have hit the 'been playing D&D for 30 years' mark.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Grimwell on June 22, 2009, 01:00:07 PM
Does that make me ancient by playing 1st Ed in high school? :|

Maybe I'm a lich and my original-cover MM is my phylactery. :drillf:

3 more birthdays and I'll have hit the 'been playing D&D for 30 years' mark.  :ye_gods:

I'm only one behind you. I can still do THACO math in my head, but love 4th Edition much more than anything prior. It's win for the DM.

Oh wait, DDO. I'm looking forward to seeing how this goes. I think it's a great idea.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 22, 2009, 01:02:59 PM
4e is wonderful yeah.

Re: DDO I can't help but think this change is partly in response to DDO no longer being up to date with the pen and paper game edition-wise. Move DDO to a F2P, lower cost of operations model, meanwhile work on a 4e game if you still have the license (no idea if they do), or if you don't, move on to other things with your main dev team.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 22, 2009, 01:25:41 PM
I'm not sure it's that so much as the subscription model makes little sense given the source.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 22, 2009, 02:37:20 PM
Does that make me ancient by playing 1st Ed in high school? :|

Maybe I'm a lich and my original-cover MM is my phylactery. :drillf:

I distinctly remember buying my 2nd Edition books when I was in college and ran a game for my roommates for a few months. Right there with ya.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on June 22, 2009, 02:48:27 PM
Is first edition "AD&D"?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on June 22, 2009, 02:48:47 PM
Is first edition "AD&D"?

O.o


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Samwise on June 22, 2009, 02:51:06 PM
I miss THAC0, it was such awesome needless complication.  I remember having to keep a chart in front of me because I was too lazy to do the backwards math on it.

I miss THAC0 because it actually made the mental arithmetic easier by keeping all the numbers small, especially at the higher levels.  Subtracting an AC of 2 from a THAC0 of 5 and comparing that to a die roll of 9 plus a to-hit modifier of 5 is easier for me than adding a base attack modifier of 15 and a to-hit modifier of 5 to a die roll of 9 and comparing to an AC of 18.  It's just as many modifiers, but the numbers were smaller in 2E so it was easier to keep them all in your head.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Brogarn on June 22, 2009, 02:55:54 PM
I miss THAC0 because it actually made the mental arithmetic easier by keeping all the numbers small, especially at the higher levels.  Subtracting an AC of 2 from a THAC0 of 5 and comparing that to a die roll of 9 plus a to-hit modifier of 5 is easier for me than adding a base attack modifier of 15 and a to-hit modifier of 5 to a die roll of 9 and comparing to an AC of 18.  It's just as many modifiers, but the numbers were smaller in 2E so it was easier to keep them all in your head.

I've played both and I prefer the latter. Adding up is better than subtracting then adding something that's in the negative.

I think I just confused myself.

Ya, definitely prefer the latter.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 22, 2009, 03:19:14 PM
Is first edition "AD&D"?

MY FAVORITE TIME OF THE DAY! NOMENCLATURE TIME!

The major editions:


OD&D = "original" D&D, this is the original box set of rules that was the precursor to all the other ones, there are still a few pockets of people playing it.

1e = the original Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, DMG, etc.

2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e = more or less self explanatory (3.5e was a major revision of the 3rd edition rules to fix a bunch of errors and balance issues, including new versions of all the major rulebooks); it isn't sufficient to say that 1e = AD&D because 2nd edition was also called that. They dropped the A with 3rd Edition, and just called it Dungeons & Dragons, which they could do because they were no longer making the next thing on the list:

BECMI or RC = the 'other track' of D&D during the 80s and 90s, this would include the red box game with Keep on the Borderlands. BECMI is shorthand for Basic/Expert/Companion/Masters/Immortal which were the boxed sets for this ruleset, RC is the Rules Compendium which was the box sets (minus most of the Immortal rules) combined in one hardcover; there are subsets of this but they're not very different from each other really. At the time this was just called "Dungeons & Dragons" as opposed to ADVANCED Dungeons & Dragons.

If your major experience with the rules is via computer games, this is the basic breakdown: the SSI Gold Box games were 1st edition, Baldur's Gate and its ilk except for Icewind Dale 2 were 2nd edition, Icewind Dale 2 and Temple of Elemental Evil were 3rd edition, DDO is based off of 3.5e.

There are other sub-rulesets out there (late 2nd edition with the Player's Option books added may as well be called 2.5e, for example) but I didn't include anything that didn't revise the actual core rulebooks.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 22, 2009, 04:13:01 PM
Nerd.


EDIT: And while I do enjoy the fourth edition, I think I liked 3.5 a bit more, for reasons I cannot really put my finger on. Now Ingmar is going to make me sleep on the couch. :(


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 22, 2009, 04:32:02 PM
The biggest loss going from 3.5e to 4e is the flexibility of the multiclassing system probably, although it isn't like 3.5e wasn't rife with unworkable combinations there. 4e combat is so much more fun as to not make me care that much about that, personally, and PHB 3 has the hybrid system coming that takes the edge off of that.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Tannhauser on June 22, 2009, 04:55:15 PM
Started with 1st Ed AD&D.  Currently playing 4e with some of the same guys I played 1e, 2e and 3e with.   :drill:

And yes, some of them still live with their Mom!

/Not me though


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 22, 2009, 05:36:50 PM
The biggest loss going from 3.5e to 4e is the flexibility of the multiclassing system probably, although it isn't like 3.5e wasn't rife with unworkable combinations there. 4e combat is so much more fun as to not make me care that much about that, personally, and PHB 3 has the hybrid system coming that takes the edge off of that.

Yeah, that's probably the biggest part of it. Building characters is just not as interesting for me now, partly because once you've played, say, a bow-based ranger, you never need to play it again, because there's just not much to do differently. For all the attacks that you pick from when you level, it's actually in practice pretty damn narrow, which makes the part I like best (leveling up, or planning ahead in levels) practically non-existant.

On the other hand, I will never have to cry to myself because I'm out of spells and therefore completely useless again, so that's a big thumbs up.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ixxit on June 22, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
Still have all my 1st edition stuff.

G-1 G-2 G-3 D-1 D-2 D-3 Q-1 --> Best Campaign ever.

Greyhawk rules -- Forgotten Realms Drools

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Tomb of Horrors 4evah.

Will be definately checking out the changes with DDO.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: taolurker on June 22, 2009, 07:41:48 PM
I almost was tempted to post about pen and paper games to further derail this thread, when I suddenly realized that my playing pnp games (D&D, AD&D, 2nd + 3rd) for 32+ years means that I am old enough to know better than trying to out geek most of you.

More on F2P DDO plz kthnx


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 23, 2009, 07:35:13 AM
I'll fight the urge to fan the 4th edition derail here... or not.

I agree combat in fourth is great, but everything outside of combat, well, can be summed up in three pages out of the core books. They turned the game in to a party based tabletop wargame.

And since we are waving our hold old a nerd we are peens here - played my first AD&D adventure at eleven I think. Which also puts me 3 years away from 30 years of D&D.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 23, 2009, 11:48:38 AM
I'll fight the urge to fan the 4th edition derail here... or not.

I agree combat in fourth is great, but everything outside of combat, well, can be summed up in three pages out of the core books. They turned the game in to a party based tabletop wargame.

And since we are waving our hold old a nerd we are peens here - played my first AD&D adventure at eleven I think. Which also puts me 3 years away from 30 years of D&D.

And other editions are full of rich roleplaying rules? Pretty much every edition of D&D is 95% combat rules, mostly because that's the only thing you actually need rules for, at least once you realize that you don't need all that stuff that 1e had about monthly chance of parasitic infection and random thesaurus-fueled adjective+noun tables for prostitutes and dungeon furniture.

Also have you seen the 4e DMG? It is almost entirely 'how to run a game/write a story/etc', very little combat stuff. I'd say of all the DMGs so far it probably spends the least time on fighting-related stuff.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Tmon on June 23, 2009, 12:43:59 PM
Quote
...They turned the game in to a party based tabletop wargame.

Pretty much this is what the game started out as so you could say it's returning to its roots.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ashamanchill on June 23, 2009, 02:14:35 PM
Dammit, you guys have me intrigued about the 4e rules now.  And just for the record, I never got to experience anything other than the bastardized 3e rules that my friends and I played with, save for games like Baldur's gate of course.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Murgos on June 23, 2009, 04:46:55 PM
Quote
...They turned the game in to a party based tabletop wargame.

Pretty much this is what the game started out as so you could say it's returning to its roots.
Beaten.  I was just going to say that when I started playing D&D it was a party based table top wargame.  Heck, the box came with a miniature and a map.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Quinton on June 23, 2009, 10:12:14 PM
Still have my 2nd edition AD&D books around here somewhere...

DDO sounds like fun.  I'd be up for some casual once a week adventuring.  The best parts of FFXI for me were running the expansion missions saturday mornings with a "static party".  Got a couple hours of fantasy mmo fun regularly, and was content.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Megrim on June 23, 2009, 10:19:37 PM
Dammit, you guys have me intrigued about the 4e rules now. 

Have you played World of Warcraft?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ashamanchill on June 24, 2009, 12:22:26 AM
Yes, I am familiar with that game.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 24, 2009, 10:55:36 AM
4e does actuall feel very MMOGish. As in, everything is painfully well balanced.

Since people are asking for it, I shall rant on what I dislike about 4th. Before I do though, I will admit that I have played it a fair bit and enjoyed it, especially the combat, but there are a lot of things that irk me:

Skill system - there are about 10 skills. Your rank in a skill is your level + stat bonus. You pick about five skills that you get +5 in. That's the total variation in skills.

Magic Items - every magic item in the game has a level requirement (WoW). You are expected to replace all of your items with new better ones pretty much every few levels (WoW). There is no way to improve or upgrade magic items. My character found a cool named unique Holy sword in one of his first adventures - that was awesome until I realized that it would be useless junk by the time I hit fourth level.
 - on crit effects - Many magic weapons only have an actually ability that works when you crit - which is basically always only on a 20. Yay 5% proc items!

Daily uses - I don't mind the system of having abilities you can only use once per encounter or once a day, but I hate that they merged magic items in to that. Basically, at any level I have X number of "Daily" powers I can use. So at sixth I might have 1 Daily powers. I might also own three magic items that have a once Daily power. If I use one of those powers, I am not allowed to use the other two that day. This results in being afraid to use a cool situational magic item, becuase you just might need that other item to save your life later.
 - I liked the 3.5 approach of "I have a crap load of cheap weird magic items on my character sheet to scour through and hope to find an appropriate one to save my bacon at any given time" better.

Balance - the game just has a general feeling of "overbalance" While each class has abilities that make it unique, it still mostly comes down to: At-will 1d8 + stat, Encounter 2d8 + stat, Daily 3d8 + stat versions of the same thing.
 - Druid Shapehift - you get it at level one. Why? - it's purely cosmetic - it just gives you access to the same abilites that every other class has, just with different names.
 - Paladin Mount? - nope sorry, no way to balance that with every other class, so it doesn't exist.
 - Found a Wizard's book? Yep, you can scribe those "Rituals" - no combat spells though - that would be unbalanced.
 - Cleric of a specific Deity? Cool - you get an option for one unique Feat you can take (most of which are subpar to normal feats) - that's the grand total of what makes a cleric of Bahumat different from a cleric of Hextor.
 - Just little things, like every class has the same base to-hit bonus.

Combat moves being "Powers" - want to trip someone? Better have that power, or it can't be done. Same for disarming. Wrestling doesn't seem to even exist anymore (you can grab an opponent - he has to stay in his sqaure...)


There are plenty of rules that can be interpreted and adjusted, just like any other game - but I didn't buy 4th to have to home-cook every other rule in the book just to make it not feel like MMOG&D.

It's not a bad game by any means, but at this point in it's existence it just doesn't feel like D&D.




Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 24, 2009, 10:57:45 AM
Sure glad I never bothered picking up the 4E books. Level requirements for items make my irrationally stabby.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ashamanchill on June 24, 2009, 11:31:52 AM
Thanks for the low down Bunk.  That does seem very MMOish, very fabricated as well.  I guess if my friends and I ever start up again, we'll stick with our own little version of the 3e rules we created.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 24, 2009, 11:43:33 AM
To be fair, there are some good qualities to the game, and it is a very well though out tabletob battle system. It just doesn't feel like D&D.

Stewie and I were talking about 4th at luch today - we plan on asking the Wizards guys at PAX this year if they are going to show us the same Beta Demos of the Gleemax tools that they showed us at PAX last year...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Montague on June 24, 2009, 12:12:23 PM
Sure glad I never bothered picking up the 4E books. Level requirements for items make my irrationally stabby.

There are no level requirements for items. Items are given a level and the DM is advised not to give items 5 or more levels above the players level.

Also magic items can be upgraded, I believe its the transfer enchantment ritual - not sure of the name.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Stewie on June 24, 2009, 12:47:05 PM
Bunk and I often argue(debate?) about the merits of 4e.
I really do feel like its D&D
One of his issues is that each character has basically the same type of powers, IE warrior gets an at will attack for x damage and then a wizard gets an at will that does x power and they are essentially the same thing with different names.

Really this is the same in every game. damage is damage and you don't generally get a huge swing of damage between 2 different character of the same level if they are both made with high damage output in mind.

Complaining that "my magic missile is the same as his bow, just with a different name"  can just as easily be done in 3.5
To take that a step further you could say that a fighter with an axe and a fighter with a sword are the exact same thing if they do the same damage. Statistically they may be but in a roleplaying game you  define your character by other methods. My lawful axe wielding beer swilling xenophobic dwarf warrior could be a far cry from your chaotic sword toting human bandit.

The simple fact of the matter is that in 4e you get plenty of opportunities to customize your character to whatever you want and the way your damage is dealt is and always has been a matter of roleplaying.

I do agree to a point on the items, although saying that they are level specific is not being totally honest.
You can use a much higher item if your dm were so inclined. the idea being that your dm will look at the relative power of an item (in 4th this is actually quantified for you) and decide if he/she wants their players to have these. this is no different then any previous edition.

Most of the complaining I hear about 4th is really just "I don't like change, waaa!" Ultimately any RPG is what you make of it.



Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 24, 2009, 01:14:58 PM
Sure glad I never bothered picking up the 4E books. Level requirements for items make my irrationally stabby.

There are no level requirements for items. Items are given a level and the DM is advised not to give items 5 or more levels above the players level.

Also magic items can be upgraded, I believe its the transfer enchantment ritual - not sure of the name.

I was just going by this-

Quote
Magic Items - every magic item in the game has a level requirement (WoW)



Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Slyfeind on June 24, 2009, 01:27:21 PM
Eh, THAC0 was there as far back as 1st ed, and probably before. 2nd Ed just pointed it out.

I recently went over some old 1st ed modules as I was playing with the NWN toolset, and rediscovered S4- Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Holy crap that module had a lot of depth to it. I think that's what made Gygax great in my eyes. Other D&D writers and DMs tried to force some dramatic story arc into their campaigns. Gygax just put the players into a situation that had enough potential for it, and let it happen. Or not, if the players didn't want it.

My biggest problem with 4e is one of its greatest strengths: the rules allow even bad DMs to run a good game. I prefer more DM rulings and player exploration in my role play.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 24, 2009, 01:48:22 PM
Items do not have level requirements, they have levels. The levels are just there to let you figure out how much something is worth/costs to make and when it would be appropriate to put one in as treasure. The DM is still free to give out whatever items he wants to whoever he wants, they do not have level restrictions on when they are usable.

You're also misrepresenting the daily item use thing a bit - you do get more uses of daily items as the day goes on assuming you keep having encounters and hitting milestones. The rule is there to keep someone from blowing 43 daily item powers in one fight and breaking the game. Yeah it is one of those places where balance is given the nod over realism, I suppose, but overall I think the game is better for it. Really I think the item system is more flexible than prior editions, not less - you don't have to spend experience points to make them a la 3rd edition, and 2e and prior didn't even really have any concrete rules for item creation at all.

Clerical differences are one of the things I do miss but apparently we are getting a system for that in the divine book. I think that was one of those 'cut for space' things in the first PHB. There are a number of things like that, it will take a while to fill out all the little niches that the older systems had filled out over their decades of existence, etc.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Koyasha on June 24, 2009, 01:59:39 PM
2nd Edition item creation was kinda crazy in that casting Permanency (which was required in order to finish ANY permanent magical item) took 1 point of constitution.

That said I'm still a big 2nd Edition fan, if not in the exact rules (I actually like a LOT of the 3rd and 4th edition rules, like allowing any race to be any class and so on, although I hate others) but in the general feel of the older editions.  3E and beyond changes something that I can't quite put my finger on, and it detracts from the experience, to me.

4E is cool but I have never gotten a chance to really play it yet.  Don't own the books either so eh.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ashamanchill on June 24, 2009, 02:27:35 PM
Well this thread has accomplished one thing.  I really, really want to start up a game with my friends, like the good ol' days.  Fuck having jobs, and GFs raggin' on you to spend time with them, and not living around the block from each other anymore, and all the other crap that steals our time.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 02:32:18 PM
Combat moves being "Powers" - want to trip someone? Better have that power, or it can't be done. Same for disarming. Wrestling doesn't seem to even exist anymore (you can grab an opponent - he has to stay in his sqaure...)

Grappling can go fuck itself and I am glad it is dead, dead, dead in 4E.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 24, 2009, 03:09:07 PM
Combat moves being "Powers" - want to trip someone? Better have that power, or it can't be done. Same for disarming. Wrestling doesn't seem to even exist anymore (you can grab an opponent - he has to stay in his sqaure...)

Grappling can go fuck itself and I am glad it is dead, dead, dead in 4E.

Oh come on! Who didn't love the three pages of grappling charts in the first edtion DMG? 17 rolls to determine that you elbowed the troll in the head for three subdual damage.

Obviously I misworded and somewhat misremembered the Magic item system in the haste of my rant... Still are issues though. In 4th its geared for you to have a "set" of magic items appropriate to your given level, which requires upgrading them every few levels. That's how the whole "treasure packet " (don't ask) system is designed.

In third, I might still hold on to a bag of tricks I got at level three when my character level is level 15, and I might still infact use it just for fun. In fourth - not a chance I'd still have that, since it would require using one of my daily powers to use it.



Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 24, 2009, 03:09:28 PM
Grappling can go fuck itself and I am glad it is dead, dead, dead in 4E.

Badly written rules aside, grappling was one of the few major weaknesses casters had against melee characters in 3.5 at least, and was one of the few things that really necessitated the use of the Still Magic feat.  I haven't looked into 4th much, so I have no clue if they ever figured out any other way to balance out that sorta thing.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 24, 2009, 03:10:39 PM
Quote
I recently went over some old 1st ed modules as I was playing with the NWN toolset, and rediscovered S4- Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Holy crap that module had a lot of depth to it. I think that's what made Gygax great in my eyes.

After Keep On The Borderlands, that is probably my fav module, both for nostalgic reasons as well as the pure awesome that existed within.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 24, 2009, 03:13:39 PM
Simple - in 4th Wizard spells are "powers" No interruption rules at all. Magic missile - usable every round, does about the same damage as a fighter would with a bow, a little less than a Ranger would with a bow. Fireball - once per encounter - does about twice the damage of magic missile, and hits an area.

Non-combat spells are now Rituals. Most of them take ten minutes to cast, cost you X value worth of spell components to cast.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 24, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
Quote
I recently went over some old 1st ed modules as I was playing with the NWN toolset, and rediscovered S4- Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Holy crap that module had a lot of depth to it. I think that's what made Gygax great in my eyes.

After Keep On The Borderlands, that is probably my fav module, both for nostalgic reasons as well as the pure awesome that existed within.

I loved Lost Caverns, but really, at it's core it was a big random dungeon maze with several dozen rooms each containing a monster that sat there and waited for adventurers to come and kill it. I did love the final room though.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Koyasha on June 24, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
Tying everything to powers and turning non-combat spells into rituals, not to mention essentially gutting the spell selection in general, is one of my biggest problems with 4th edition.  To me, combat in this sort of game is about coming up with intelligent, clever, and unexpected ways to do things, and using magic in unusual and creative ways in order to defeat your enemies.

Doing something like setting up a Magic Mouth to shout a warning is something you can do if you're going through an area you're likely to get flanked from another tunnel.  But it becomes absurdly impractical with a 10 minute casting time and a 50 gold piece material cost.  4E tries to boil the system down to the level where a computer could be the DM, in a way.  2nd Edition gives you just enough to base your game on and leaves all the details up to the DM.

On the other hand, 4th Edition's 'at will' powers and 'encounter' powers are an awesome idea that improves a lot of the boring and weakness of the low-level game.  Everyone knows the pain of being a 1st level mage in 2nd Edition where you cast a Magic Missile then spend the rest of the day hiding behind a rock and maybe using a sling to be a pointless annoyance to enemies.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Montague on June 24, 2009, 04:02:21 PM
Tying everything to powers and turning non-combat spells into rituals, not to mention essentially gutting the spell selection in general, is one of my biggest problems with 4th edition.  To me, combat in this sort of game is about coming up with intelligent, clever, and unexpected ways to do things, and using magic in unusual and creative ways in order to defeat your enemies.

Doing something like setting up a Magic Mouth to shout a warning is something you can do if you're going through an area you're likely to get flanked from another tunnel.  But it becomes absurdly impractical with a 10 minute casting time and a 50 gold piece material cost.  4E tries to boil the system down to the level where a computer could be the DM, in a way.  2nd Edition gives you just enough to base your game on and leaves all the details up to the DM.

On the other hand, 4th Edition's 'at will' powers and 'encounter' powers are an awesome idea that improves a lot of the boring and weakness of the low-level game.  Everyone knows the pain of being a 1st level mage in 2nd Edition where you cast a Magic Missile then spend the rest of the day hiding behind a rock and maybe using a sling to be a pointless annoyance to enemies.

Not to mention that in 3rd edition if you weren't a wizard, cleric or sorcerer you didn't get to do the "cool stuff". By the time you reached 12th+ level your job was to occupy the monsters while the casters killed/disintegrated/controlled everything.

On the other hand though, the at-will powers do tend to tamp down creativity of the players, which is a shame because Wizards put in a very elegant system for improvised attacks and damage on page 42 of the DMG. The problem is that when you have an at-will power that does X amount of damage, you don't have much incentive to do something risky that may either backfire, kill the monster, or not work entirely depending on the ruling of the DM.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: WayAbvPar on June 24, 2009, 04:03:16 PM
Quote
I recently went over some old 1st ed modules as I was playing with the NWN toolset, and rediscovered S4- Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Holy crap that module had a lot of depth to it. I think that's what made Gygax great in my eyes.

After Keep On The Borderlands, that is probably my fav module, both for nostalgic reasons as well as the pure awesome that existed within.

I loved Lost Caverns, but really, at it's core it was a big random dungeon maze with several dozen rooms each containing a monster that sat there and waited for adventurers to come and kill it. I did love the final room though.

That is what I liked about both KOTB and LCoS- no real rhyme or reason, just full of almost every monster around. They are like evil petting zoos!


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 24, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
Quote
I recently went over some old 1st ed modules as I was playing with the NWN toolset, and rediscovered S4- Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Holy crap that module had a lot of depth to it. I think that's what made Gygax great in my eyes.

After Keep On The Borderlands, that is probably my fav module, both for nostalgic reasons as well as the pure awesome that existed within.

I loved Lost Caverns, but really, at it's core it was a big random dungeon maze with several dozen rooms each containing a monster that sat there and waited for adventurers to come and kill it. I did love the final room though.

Yeah I have to agree with this. What made Lost Caverns really awesome was it had that whole extra book of new monsters and spells, which was a first at the time, not the adventure itself which was fine but not outstanding. For seminal early adventure design I think there are better places to look, like Dwellers of the Forbidden City, The Veiled Society, and Night's Dark Terror (the later two being 'basic' D&D modules, rather than AD&D.)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Slyfeind on June 24, 2009, 04:17:50 PM
I loved Lost Caverns, but really, at it's core it was a big random dungeon maze with several dozen rooms each containing a monster that sat there and waited for adventurers to come and kill it. I did love the final room though.

This is what made it great though. The Tournament version of S4 was just that, room after room of monsters until you kill the boss and get the treasure. But the campaign version was this insane political struggle where half the Flaeness was after this mighty artifact, and had to deal with entire civilizations that thrived, allied, warred with each other, in a mountain range that most thought was just wilderness. You could run that module so many different ways. I DMed it when I was young and just did the caverns thing, but the NWN adaptation by Sir Otis (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Modules.Detail&id=5877) puts all the politics and exploration into it. I started to do my own NWN module based on it, but when I found Sir Otis's, I lost interest. I hate how he made it so you starve after every zone, though. I could never get past that. There's another adaptation by Barron Wasteland which just isn't that good, but I took it as more of a first draft that he never polished.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 06:16:35 PM
Grappling can go fuck itself and I am glad it is dead, dead, dead in 4E.

Badly written rules aside, grappling was one of the few major weaknesses casters had against melee characters in 3.5 at least, and was one of the few things that really necessitated the use of the Still Magic feat.  I haven't looked into 4th much, so I have no clue if they ever figured out any other way to balance out that sorta thing.

When you have fucked up rules that are SO BAD your entire group looks dismayed when you start the grapple, and then consider you an asshole when you go through with it anyway (I hope your ranged attack characters didn't want to hit the bad guy!), the "it might screw over a caster" positive side doesn't really balance it out. It was terrible, so so so terrible. I never really found the ranged casters to be a big deal as a player, dunno about the DM side though. Our DM(s) didn't seem to have much problem dealing with OUR ranged casters, but their "win" condition is us thinking "shit, we might lose" instead of killing everyone.

In 4th casters don't have any "haha, I just instantly killed half your party" spells, which makes the I MUST STOP THEM FROM DOING ANYTHING AT ALL less a panicky priority.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 24, 2009, 06:24:57 PM

When you have fucked up rules that are SO BAD your entire group looks dismayed when you start the grapple, and then consider you an asshole when you go through with it anyway (I hope your ranged attack characters didn't want to hit the bad guy!), the "it might screw over a caster" positive side doesn't really balance it out. It was terrible, so so so terrible. I never really found the ranged casters to be a big deal as a player, dunno about the DM side though. Our DM(s) didn't seem to have much problem dealing with OUR ranged casters, but their "win" condition is us thinking "shit, we might lose" instead of killing everyone.

Oh, but you forgot the icing on this clusterfuck of a cake!  As soon as you grapple a mage, the mage in question immediately has to go digging through their spells to find out which ones have somatic components.  One more thing to look up, that's even potentially longer and more tedious than the grapple rules themselves!   :uhrr:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 06:33:27 PM
And didn't you have to PREPARE your spells to be still (unless you were a sorcererererer, of course)? I only really played a cleric at high levels, I hated low level casters so much I never really made it to the "OK, I'm finally cool for the entire combat" stage with any of them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on June 24, 2009, 06:37:29 PM
This is really reminding me of why I played Runequest.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ard on June 24, 2009, 06:37:59 PM
Still spell feat only affected spells that had somatic (must move around) components.  It includes like 90%+ spells in the game.  This is where grappling and pinning a spell caster comes in.  It also makes the GM have to go dig through the spell lists to find out which are still the get out of jail free cards that only require a concentration roll instead.

Don't get me wrong.  The grappling rules were really annoying.  I just got good at abusing them.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 07:00:13 PM
Yeah, I know they were for somatic component spells, I just thought you'd have to prepare them as still for them to actually be still-able. Same with silent spell, etc.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 24, 2009, 07:33:59 PM
Grapple spell casters?  Bah!  I just hit them so hard they couldn't make their concentration check.

Actually I mostly played 2nd Ed and I wished I could pin casters, even if he was on my side.  Damn Wild Mages.  I'm pretty sure he did more damage to me over the course of any given adventure than enemy casters.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Rendakor on June 24, 2009, 07:42:55 PM
Sjofn is correct, you have to prepare your spells as Still using the Still Spell feat in the PHB. There is a Sudden Still feat in one of the splat books, however, that lets you still a spell you haven't prepared as stilled, once per day.

I'm generally with Bunk on the 3.5 v 4th debate. 4E felt way too much like an MMO for my tastes, and the homogenization of all classes/abilities was my other big complaint. Of course, having ~$300 worth of 3.5 books colors my opinion.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 08:08:20 PM
I don't really feel the MMO-ness other people complain about, personally, but that's just one nerd's opinion on that, I suppose. It's come up often enough that I guess it does for other people, and I can see being wrinkly nosed about it.

On the other hand, I like what they've done with the classes, and I don't feel they've been over-homogenized so much as actually balanced in a way I prefer. I loathed the way spellcasters started out as absolute shit, then wound up basically being The Amazing Wizard and His Adorable Little Friends. But then, I've always prefered something being "homogenized" for balance than imbalance for the sake of flavor. The classes all have flavor, they all have character, and they can all function (although the paladin sort of sucks in 4E) the WHOLE TIME in their roles. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that a wizard casts magic missile as an at-will and it's not, at its very core, that different from a ranger shooting her bow, as in 3.5 it never struck me as hugely different to have a wizard pew pewing with a wand every round to conserve spells or whatever. Maybe I invest a lot more in the flavor of a class lore-wise than mechanics-wise?

The skill thing I can kinda understand, although you'd think as someone got more powerful and moved in more powerful circles, that would help them intimidate some level 1 nobody, even if they never trained it and had a shitty charisma. That's how I think of it, anyway.

I HATE that learning languages is a goddamn feat though.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 24, 2009, 08:22:26 PM
I don't like what they've done with the Warlock, at least from reading since I have yet to play 4th Ed.  They didn't get a lot of, or really very powerful abilities, but they got to use them as much as they wanted.  Now all the cool stuff is an encounter or daily power, and Eldritch Blast can't be modified. :sad:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sjofn on June 24, 2009, 09:39:12 PM
Meh, it feels pretty similar to how they worked in 3.5 to me really, although that's just from playing WITH a 3.5 warlock, not AS a 3.5 warlock. 99% of the time they were going zot zot zot with their blast on their turn, you pretty much do that in 4E, with the additional amusement of cursing people so you zot for more damage and having something happen when that cursed thing finally eats it. I played a warlock for a while in 4E, the thing that grated on my nerves was that I had such a hard time actually HITTING anything compared to the not-spell-caster strikers because of how weapons modify to hit (and the fact that impliments lag behind in that regard). I hit less often for less damage and it got frustrating for me, although I was never, ever, ever, ever in danger of dying like the rogue often was, which I suppose was part of the balance.

Right now I'm playing a defender type (the warden) and it is rad.


EDIT: I guess what I mean with the warlock thing is that I would've singled them out as the class that changed least from 3.5 to 4. Wizards, especially if you liked them in 3.5, are the class I would say changed the most in how they function, and I can TOTALLY see why the typical "I always play wizards" people would hate it, even if I disagree that the 3.5 way was better.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Trippy on June 24, 2009, 09:40:26 PM
This is really reminding me of why I played Runequest.
Ah, those were the days...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 24, 2009, 10:07:15 PM
EDIT: I guess what I mean with the warlock thing is that I would've singled them out as the class that changed least from 3.5 to 4. Wizards, especially if you liked them in 3.5, are the class I would say changed the most in how they function, and I can TOTALLY see why the typical "I always play wizards" people would hate it, even if I disagree that the 3.5 way was better.
If all you did was zot stuff, then yes.  I liked their other powers, like creating the short-lived Darkness that was composed of bat-like shadows, or their cloak of flying, or being able to turn into a a cloud of shadows.  They traded the massive damage of other classes for utility, flavor, and unlimited use and they just don't seem to have it in Fourth.

They'd still rank up there for choices were I to play, but they're so rigid with their pacts now and the encounter/daily power usage, it seems like they would play very differently.  Not necessarily bad, just not having the things I liked about the original.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on June 24, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Your pact doesn't actually force any choices on to you but your 2nd at-will; they put a pact name on the PHB powers for flavor, but you're not obligated to take powers from your pact. There's actually a little note about how they regret doing that in Arcane Power, because it confused a lot of people into thinking that you had to take powers from your own pact; they left those pact names off all of the new ones in AP.

It does sort of behoove you to pick powers that match your primary stat (charisma or constitution for warlocks), but with Arcane Power and the dark pact stuff in the Forgotten Realms book in the mix, warlocks actually have a ton of choices now. I think they have 5 or 6 pact choices, which is more choice than anyone else currently gets.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on June 24, 2009, 11:40:58 PM
I've only seen the core book, and I know it doesn't force the choice.  However you don't get the bonuses if you choose out-of-pact, and you get so few choices that it doesn't feel like you really have the luxury of doing so either.  (Warlock's first at-will is also pre-determined, so they don't really get to choose there either.)

That's where 3.x feels superior.  More choices and flexibility.  At least on paper, since as I said, I have not played Fourth.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 25, 2009, 10:52:57 AM
Part of the reason for less choice is obvoiusly the vast difference in the number of available books, but as someone else said, I'm not encouraged to buy 30 new 4th books to replace my 30 3.5 books.

I like the unbalanced sillyness that is 3.5 - admittedly you need a good DM to reign you in sometimes. My current 3.5 game, I'm playing a Bard 3/Duskblade 4, with his top skill being sleight of hand. Bags full of scrolls, wands and potions to cover every scenario. Feats in weapon finesse, improved disarm, and battle dance. At 7th he ends up with + 17 on disarm rolls with his whip, if he's moving and singing. Completely silly, but it all balances out since he rolled like shit on his hps, and can't do crap all to monsters that don't use melee weapons. (1d6+2 damage!) - though getting the Duskblade's channel ability to use with Chill Touch will improve that.

Try building that guy in 4th.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Montague on June 25, 2009, 12:28:52 PM
Part of the reason for less choice is obvoiusly the vast difference in the number of available books, but as someone else said, I'm not encouraged to buy 30 new 4th books to replace my 30 3.5 books.

I like the unbalanced sillyness that is 3.5 - admittedly you need a good DM to reign you in sometimes. My current 3.5 game, I'm playing a Bard 3/Duskblade 4, with his top skill being sleight of hand. Bags full of scrolls, wands and potions to cover every scenario. Feats in weapon finesse, improved disarm, and battle dance. At 7th he ends up with + 17 on disarm rolls with his whip, if he's moving and singing. Completely silly, but it all balances out since he rolled like shit on his hps, and can't do crap all to monsters that don't use melee weapons. (1d6+2 damage!) - though getting the Duskblade's channel ability to use with Chill Touch will improve that.

Try building that guy in 4th.

I think that paragraph kinda sums up why 4th edition was necessary.  :grin: 


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Bunk on June 25, 2009, 02:08:57 PM
See, that's just it. It's neccessary to prevent me from making a character like that in a computer game - but it should not be an issue in PnP. Anyone whose ever played RPGs with me knows I'm going to make a totally off the radar concept, that will likely be a useless toad 90% of the time, and a total god in the 10%. My group and whoever is GMing simply works with that. In 4th - everything is so balanced out, I just feel like the creativity is balanced away.

Quote
Doing something like setting up a Magic Mouth to shout a warning is something you can do if you're going through an area you're likely to get flanked from another tunnel.  But it becomes absurdly impractical with a 10 minute casting time and a 50 gold piece material cost.  4E tries to boil the system down to the level where a computer could be the DM, in a way.  2nd Edition gives you just enough to base your game on and leaves all the details up to the DM.

This is exactly what I am getting at. 4th has rules in place that balance and restrict some things down so far that there is little room to be creative - and then at the same time, has no rules whatsoever to cover other things, even as a guidline.

One scenario I've often discussed in 3.5 is the Sorcerer with Improved Invis and Fly. Based on experience, this is a really game breaking combo in 3.5. If I'm running a 3.5 game and have a character keep abusing this, I'll adjust encounters to compensate. If the player doesn't get the hint, I'll do something creative to nerf that combo. I fully expect the character will come up with something else to frustrate me eventually - but that's ok - that's part of the game to me, that back and forth between the player and DM.

In 4th, the answer was just to make any sort of overpowered combo like that - just not exist. 4th really comes accross like the rules were written for a computer to run. Now of course that will never happen, since that would require WoC to actually successfully finish writing a computer program...


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Slyfeind on June 25, 2009, 02:24:47 PM
One scenario I've often discussed in 3.5 is the Sorcerer with Improved Invis and Fly. Based on experience, this is a really game breaking combo in 3.5. If I'm running a 3.5 game and have a character keep abusing this, I'll adjust encounters to compensate. If the player doesn't get the hint, I'll do something creative to nerf that combo. I fully expect the character will come up with something else to frustrate me eventually - but that's ok - that's part of the game to me, that back and forth between the player and DM.

Things like that are a huge point of contention with everybody. It's hard to make an interesting campaign for invisoflight characters. Either they sail through everything unharmed, or everybody they meet can see the invisible and also fly. You can either be an awesome DM and deal with it creatively, presenting new situations where invisoflight is recognized yet doesn't affect the challenge either way...or just change the rules so this never ever happens again. WotC felt that players wanted the latter.

I once ran a campaign of all mages. It was spectacular. The players went to stop a political marriage that would have set dangerous people into power and risk freedom in the entire campaign world. The presiding priest got to "If there is anyone here who feels this couple should not be married, let them speak now or forever hold their peace."

Oh yes then the invisoflight mages laid waste with fire and ice and storm. BOOM.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Rendakor on June 26, 2009, 01:18:25 AM
It's a balancing act regarding how much freedom you give the players (and DMs). The greater amount of customization available, the greater possibility of abuse. However, D&D isn't about BALANCE or any of that bullshit, it's about roleplaying interesting characters and having fun with your buddies. There's no PVP, and no DPS meter running to make sure every class parses well. The 3.5 ruleset (with all its splatbooks, of course) is versatile enough that you can create virtually any character. When I used to read the WotC boards, there was a thread there where people were statting Anime and Video Game characters as 20th level 3.5 characters. You just need an effective DM to step in and allow or disallow combinations of classes/feats/whatever that don't work in a particular campaign.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Stewie on June 29, 2009, 07:16:17 AM
Quote
My current 3.5 game, I'm playing a Bard 3/Duskblade 4
Not any more! one confusion spell and the main fighter took him out in 1 attack. lol

Although this was pure win for me, I just doubled my loot, and I will get a new less gimped companion in the group  :awesome_for_real:



Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 08, 2009, 11:43:42 AM
NDA lifted.

The game is penciled in for an August 4th, 2009 launch.

Source. (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/163/view/news/read/14322/Launch-Date-Announced-NDA-Dropped.html)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 08, 2009, 01:17:02 PM
It's been a lot more fun than when I did a free trial years ago.  The controls are more responsive and, at least through level 4, completely possible to solo.

Without putting any money in it looks like you'll be fairly limited.  Monks and Favored Soul (new class) are locked, as well as Drow and Warforged.  I'm not sure Monk or Warforged can be unlocked any way besides being a subscriber or buying them.  Drow is reasonable to unlock, but Favored Soul will basically require a lot of work.  The only people unlocking them through gameplay will be those currently with maxed characters or those who simply aren't interested in playing them.

DDO Points are not currently a 1:1 buy.  It looks like if you buy VIP for a month you may go from two to four character slots without having to purchase more.  Excess characters (if VIP) will be unplayable, but you'll get to pick the 'active' ones at the end of your term.  (No idea if it's a one-time choice or not, should you re-up/lapse.)

If you've played recently I don't think the core gameplay has changed much beyond adding Favored Soul.  You choose a path at first level which gives you a weapon proficiency and determines some abilities down the line.  More limited spells than a Cleric, however you can cast them frequently and you have better combat abilities.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Numtini on July 08, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I just joined last night on the fileplanet beta. My Goddess, even with DX10 and everything maxxed out it looks horrible. Is this game really something that came out after WoW and EQ2?

I'll give it a shot. I'm Numtini Lightheart.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on July 08, 2009, 02:05:30 PM
I can't remember my char name.  This game makes me feel like I need to schedule an appointment with an eye doctor.  I also don't have much of an idea of what the hell is going on in combat, although I think I actually managed to trip an enemy once.  Mostly it's just whackwhackwhack.  I have only just managed to get out of the starter town and I think that's where the grind starts, or something.  It's not terrible but seems like I only play it while waiting for LotRO to patch.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 08, 2009, 02:15:27 PM
I cannot see it as a game which will hold my interest.  It'll be something to play for a bit when I'm bored, or if I could get a semi-regular group of people together.  It's definately not something most will play as their primary game for long.

Even though it allows surnames, for communication and mail purposes only use the first name.  That confused me for a while.

I'm not playing much, however anyone is welcome to add Lillia and/or Kylantha in case I do show up.  I can at least answer some questions if I'm around.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Threash on July 08, 2009, 04:27:43 PM

One scenario I've often discussed in 3.5 is the Sorcerer with Improved Invis and Fly. Based on experience, this is a really game breaking combo in 3.5.

Don't forget the all important zombie dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 11, 2009, 02:15:38 AM

That's where 3.x feels superior.  More choices and flexibility.  At least on paper, since as I said, I have not played Fourth.

In the end, its not. 4 may have less RAW choice, but it has more choices that are actually effective. This means that there are many many more real character choices that you can make. Considering different item enhancements, power choices, and feat selections i could build probably 5-10 different Dwarven fighters which were all about as effective as each other in 4th edition. You can build maybe 1 or 2 in 3.5.

As someone who has DM'd and played both 3rd and 4th editions quite a lot, 4th edition is pretty superior for the DM in every way. Its easier to make monsters, easier to create fun and interesting encounters, you rarely have to worry about save or dies dropping enemies and you can create large battles that would otherwise be either boring or overwhelming in the prior edition. You never have to worry about ridiculous non-combat spells ruining an encounter, nor do you have to worry about players having so much power as to entirely circumvent your plot.

For the player it really depends on what you're like. If you played a wizard and liked the fact that you were the party once you got past about level 6[unless the DM arbitrarily shut down all of your methods of attack, which is really lame] then you might feel slighted because now your non-spellcasting friends with the exception of the guy with 1 level of rogue for trapfinding[which didn't matter much anyway] are actually useful for something other than having the DM forcefully meta encounters around the guy with the axe who was uselessly swinging it at a monster who would rightly never care since he was going to get "save or died" by the wizard the next round anyway.

If you enjoy 3.5, by all means go ahead and play it, but 4e is just plain better at doing what DnD does and getting out of the way of the stuff it does not.

______

That being said, i'll be giving this a whirl.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 11, 2009, 08:01:14 AM
Effectiveness is not a concern of mine (unless power gaming twinks are ruining the fun).

It was a second edition campaign, but the most fun I've ever had was my my thief and her wild mage companion.  He let me stuff all my thief points into sneak and read languages (with a half chance to speak) first.  Her combat skills were terrible and often she used non-proficient weapons... like the time she tied a LG +2 sword to a stick since she couldn't touch it without taking damage.  Usually did as much damage or more damage to herself than the enemies through critical fumbles.  She would do anything to remove the cursed amulet she started the game with.  Often very stupid things.  The mage was even more crazy.

It was some of the best RP we've ever had.  As long as we were alive rezzed by the end of the adventure, we didn't care how it went.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 11, 2009, 11:09:52 AM
Effectiveness is not a concern of mine (unless power gaming twinks are ruining the fun).

[...]

It was some of the best RP we've ever had.  As long as we were alive rezzed by the end of the adventure, we didn't care how it went.

Effectiveness is not a necessity for good RP, but it doesn't detract in any way.  The advantage of 4th is not that its going to make your RP amazing, no system can magically make your and your group have a better time RPing. All systems can do is model the abilities of your characters towards how you want character differences to turn out. Some systems are better at that than others in terms of "realism or simulation" (I am thinking WW D10 or "Godlike D10"), some in terms of "utility" (E.G. DnD), but none in terms of narration. And the newer DnD systems are better at what DnD systems do, which is making the stuff that isn't RP fun and balanced between as many different character combinations as possible. It takes workload off the DM and allows a wider range of effective characters. It makes all classes valuable rather than just the spellcasters valuable.

All of the things you did in 2nd could have been replicated in 4th but without as much rigmarole. \

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering. Improved Invisibility and fly were not the killers in 3.5, it was things like Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Protection from Arrows, Touch of Idiocy, Blindness/Deafness, Deep Slumber, Hold Person, Suggestion(both the spell and the ridiculous version the bard gets), Ray of Exhaustion, the illusion spells, and this isn't even getting out of third level spells


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xilren's Twin on July 11, 2009, 01:19:12 PM
To reroute this to DDO, one system they have put into the beta which is causing much wailing and gnashing of teeth is a "Dungeon Alert System'

Quote
Our research into player feedback on performance issues found that having a great quantity of monsters chasing players through a dungeon was contributing to a poor experience for everyone in the form of what is called “lag”. Hitching, rubberbanding, or other irregular game behavior could ruin a night of questing for not only the group being attacked by the monsters, but also fellow server mates in other parts of Xen’drik! Something had to be done, but finding a resolution that was still satisfying for game play was needed. Simply forcing players to kill every monster wouldn’t do – it was too punishing to our sneaking and/or spell casting experts. Causing monsters to leash helped in some areas, but created new problems in others when a monster leashed at an inopportune time, resetting their hit points and making double the work for heroes. Simply pulling monsters out of quests was not only a time consuming process for quest makers, but could turn once challenging encounters into harmless nature walks. So we took a lesson from our favorite stories of action and adventure, and the Dungeon Alert system was born!

If a hero charges into a castle making a lot of noise, running past all of the guards smacking them in the face once or twice, and belligerently barreling by adversaries rather than facing them, eventually the entire castle gets alerted. Ultimately they will do something about the intruder - it’s never a good idea to let an enemy guard see you and leave it free to fetch help! We thought about how we could bring that element into questing in a way that still felt flexible for players. Our intent is to improve game performance while still allowing for players that are dealing with encounters by stealth, vanquishing enemies, or even charming them.

How It Works:

As you or your group members aggro enemies, you gradually increase the “alertness” of the region or dungeon you are in. Your enemies become harder to escape from, and bosses grow challenging having had the time to be alerted to your presence. The Dungeon Alert system is forgiving initially, but gets progressively harder as your party reaches certain thresholds of alert. We want to support stealthing past monsters, some kiting, and active movement in combat, but ideally want to reduce occurrences of players dragging large numbers of monsters around without dealing with the encounter in some form.

With each alert level, an icon will appear to warn you that your enemies are becoming more and more aware of your presence:
No skull: The enemies in this region are not yet alerted to your presence.
Green skull: Your presence has not gone unnoticed by the creatures in this region.
Yellow skull: You have angered many opponents, and your enemies have been alerted to the presence of invaders.
Orange skull: You have angered many opponents, and your enemies have been alerted to the presence of invaders, and are taking defensive measures.
Red skull: You have angered a great many opponents, and your enemies have been alerted to the presence of invaders and are taking extreme defensive measures!
At the Green Skull alert level, you will note the inhabitants of dungeons becoming more aggressive in their pursuit of you. Bosses of the regions will also fight more fiercely, having had advanced notice of your coming. Should you be unfortunate enough to reach the Red Skull alert, pray to your gods, for the enemies in that region are out for your blood and the mere sight of you will work them into a frothing rabble determined to eliminate you at all costs!

To help prevent a player from getting in a situation where they’ve inadvertently made their dungeon too tough, certain actions can reduce and mitigate the alert level. These actions can happen on the fly, and help a player to effectively manage how much awareness their foes have at any point during their adventure. Such beneficial actions include:
Destroying enemies: by killing, banishing, or otherwise slaying foes, you reduce their ability to alert their friends to fight you!
Charming enemies: You're one of their fold now! Charmed enemies don’t try to give away your presence.
Stealthing by enemies: It’s hard to make a fuss about that which isn’t seen. If you successfully slip by enemies using your stealth and are not caught, you’re in the clear, having not alerted every mob and his brother to your existence. An additional benefit to our stealthy types is monsters will no longer have ESP, forever searching for you. If you're careful not to be discovered, your enemies will eventually give up looking for you! After all, it must have just been a mouse.
The passage of time: Time heals all wounds. Monsters in a dungeon will eventually calm down after a while even if you agitated their entire hive. If you’ve not been seen or heard from for a while, the bad guys gradually presume you were dispatched and their angst decreases.
Players can use any combination of these techniques to manage how aware their enemies are to their presence. It is even possible to take some monsters in tow in the heat of the moment – but if you start to amass a small army’s worth of trouble, the danger also amasses!

Naturally there are some quests that are more prone to having large quantities of monsters than others. We’re able to make adjustments to the Dungeon Alert system to help alleviate accidental threat levels in quests where it is extremely likely that a player will be faced with large batches of monsters. We’ve already made major adjustments in several quests that involve large groups of monsters as part of the primary game play (such as Kobold Assault). As you play through adventures on Lamannia, we encourage players to provide feedback on any quests where they find the Dungeon Alert system ramps up too quickly for them to manage.

For those that dont know, the fastest way to complete many quests is to run by a lot of monsters without fighting them.  Going through a door to another "zone" will stop them, or just run from them long enough and they'll eventually return to their spawn points.  For people looking for quick completions (favor or loot runs) it was much much faster to to this then to play through the dungeon "as intended".
Im not sure how many players beleive them that doing this leads to server lag as a) lag is really only noticeable in two main high level areas, and b) it's not like the server have been packed.

From reading some of the posts, i think making this sort of sweeping change to how the bulk of the paying customer have been playing your game for years is....unwise.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 11, 2009, 02:36:41 PM
Effectiveness is not a necessity for good RP, but it doesn't detract in any way.
We very much found that it did.  All of my friends have a bit of power gamer in them.  If you let us become too effective, we will abuse it.  We're bad enough at being effective with junk...

On the DDO front I found a $5 box at Gamestop, so I started a pre-VIP account.  The difference is already pretty telling.  The beta controls are much more friendly and intuitive.  Animations have been tweaked and voice added to the tutorial.  Even though it's just the tutorial, voices make it cheesy in the perfect dorks playing D&D way.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on July 11, 2009, 03:37:23 PM
From reading some of the posts, i think making this sort of sweeping change to how the bulk of the paying customer have been playing your game for years is....unwise.

They're not paying them after next month, what do they care? They're a small subset now, or they're probably hoping. Probably banking on this system deterring the new players using this system because they're told it's the way to do things. The problem I see for new players that are incoming, is if they only want to play for free and run out of content, they're not going to be too happy about having to take things slowly every time.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 11, 2009, 04:46:20 PM
We very much found that it did.  All of my friends have a bit of power gamer in them.  If you let us become too effective, we will abuse it.  We're bad enough at being effective with junk...

So you played 3.5 or 2.0 with no Spellcasters?

I'll just say it this way. In 3.5 you had to ridiculously powergame your non-spellcasters to have a chance of being better than a straight up, PHB core human wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Druid[and it was pretty much the same way in 2.0 with its spellcasters]. And if you even bothered to optimize those classes slightly then the non-spellcasters never catch up[they don't even catch up with a bard, who, at level 6 gets pretty much a "go first or die" attack, since the save is so high its not reasonable to make it unless the creature is immune to charm effects]

In 4.0 this is simply not possible, there are many more choices that are effective. No classes stand out as overly effective as others, there is nothing that will simply obviate the other players.  You can have a fighter and wizard and rogue in the same party and have everyone feel effective past level 2 and not just playing interference until the wizard and cleric solve the problem.

on the DDO front, i am trying to find a way to download this[i have an old account but still don't see a download link anywhere] so i can either resub for a month or i can just see what is available.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sophismata on July 12, 2009, 02:32:10 AM
It depends entirely on what you're looking to get out of the game. 3.5 removed a lot of the soft 'balance' given to casters in the older additions of the game, and (mechanically), it scales very poorly - at high levels encounters tend to be very short and very lethal once you include a few supplements.

Core 3.5's big problem is the Druid - while Wizards and Clerics are powerful, they are still limited by the actions they can take in-game. The mainstay of more martial characters are the feats, but there aren't enough in the PHB and those that are there are (for the most part) terrible, either in effectiveness, design, or both. Example: Dodge - it's annoying to keep track of, not particularly effective and acts as a speed hump to one of the best feat ideas, Whirlwind. Whirlwind is, of course, terrible - but there should have been many more top-tier martial feats that relied on two or more distinct paths of feat progression.

Anyway, I've rambled off of my point. 4e is too carefully balanced. It's visible in every aspect of the rules, and I've found that as a result it tends to prevent players from attempting extraordinary, or creative, things. What can and cannot be done are very strictly defined by the ruleset, and while thinking outside the box is possible, it is not encouraged. Furthermore, there are key balance issues in 4e, as well, that cause problems with savvy players. Those carefully meted out bonuses to damage? They stack across attacks, and takes little to realise that multi-attack powers are the best in the game. The basic system math is off, attack versus defense values start to drift apart at the higher levels. Casters and multi-stat classes (such as the Paladin) are unduly penalised, which is especially bad in a system so tightly wound around by-the-numbers balance. Players (subjectively) tend to find little that is 'unique' about their characters, whereas in 3.5 you had things like Special Mounts or Scorn Earth (your character hates the ground, the ground hates him back. They rarely meet.)


Bottom line, both systems have balance issues. (And both systems can overcome those issues with a little common sense or a rules-savvy GM). This won't prevent you from having fun with them, though. If you're a fan of tactical battle, or are new to the game, 4e's probably definitely the better choice - it is easier to run, the rules and abilities and pretty much everything is clearly shown, and the rulebooks are well-designed. Most players (in my experience) who remember key moments from previous roleplays, or have favourite characters, though, don't get much chance to relive or recreate them in 4e.


Edit: There is a group of players who really dislike the "çandy store" approach to items in 4e (I'm one of them, in any case). To be honest, 3.5e had a similar (though less obvious) item requirement, and 4e actually makes it much easier to remove items from the system altogether. It makes the bonuses from items and item progression logical, and simple to reverse-engineer. So, you can easily move the game from a half-dozen magical items every level to fewer, more powerful items, or remove them altogether.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 12, 2009, 01:39:25 PM
4e isn't perfect and therefore its just as bad as anything else

There is also a lot of simple bullshit in there.

Quote
at high levels encounters tend to be very short and very lethal once you include a few supplements.

You don't need to include supplements. A core bard, one of the weaker spellcasters, puts out a DC 27 will save or die at level 6.[actually can be more]. Wizards, while they can only get to DC 18-20 or so are much stronger. Core wizards make encounters and even games at all very lethal, nothing else, just core wizards. If you were having problems only with druids then either the people in your games were terrible, or you were arbitrarily limiting wizards.

Quote
What can and cannot be done are very strictly defined by the ruleset, and while thinking outside the box is possible, it is not encouraged

Bullshit, that is all on you. Either for having no imagination, or for failing to read the rules in the DMG. The other day, i dropped a tree on my enemies. Why? Because i wanted to, and i could, and the DM could figure a reasonable effect for it.

Quote
Anyway, I've rambled off of my point. 4e is too carefully balanced

This is one of the most retarded things i have ever heard anyone say, and i've heard a lot of retarded things.

Quote
The basic system math is off, attack versus defense values start to drift apart at the higher levels. Casters and multi-stat classes (such as the Paladin) are unduly penalised, which is especially bad in a system so tightly wound around by-the-numbers balance

Bullshit. Casters and multi-stat classes are not penalized. Paladins only have problems in power selection[early power selection for str based Paladins only] and casters have no to-hit problems compared to weapon based classes. While there is a small drop off in effectiveness, the drop off is for everyone, and a slight math error[representing +1-3 to hit over the course of the game] is a pretty small problem all things considered

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Bottom line, both systems have balance issues. (And both systems can overcome those issues with a little common sense or a rules-savvy GM).

Except that one of those systems corrects its relatively small issues very easily and without much work on anyones part, and one requires rewriting the entire system. 3.5 is terrible on balance issues, its impossible to balance without throwing out half of the core rulebooks.

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Most players (in my experience) who remember key moments from previous roleplays, or have favourite characters, though, don't get much chance to relive or recreate them in 4e.

This comes mainly from them being foolish, or simply not caring that there were other people playing the game. 3.5 works O.K. for a CPRG where you can carefully mete every situation and/or don't care if people break it, but it does not work well with real players in a real game.

Seriously, take off your rose colored glasses and play the various systems, 4.0 works better for pretty much everything.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Xilren's Twin on July 12, 2009, 01:54:25 PM
on the DDO front, i am trying to find a way to download this[i have an old account but still don't see a download link anywhere] so i can either resub for a month or i can just see what is available.

Try here for download info  (http://www.ddo.com/component/content/article/455-downloadinstall-ddo)

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They're not paying them after next month, what do they care? They're a small subset now, or they're probably hoping. Probably banking on this system deterring the new players using this system because they're told it's the way to do things. The problem I see for new players that are incoming, is if they only want to play for free and run out of content, they're not going to be too happy about having to take things slowly every time.

Nix, unless a current subscriber intentionally cancels, they will keep their normal per month sub and be considered a VIP for DDO:EU.  More character slots, unlocked all races and classes, levels etc plus 500 Turbine points a month.  Since most current subscribers already have a ton of high level characters, i dont see too many converting to free-to-play.  Besides, why would they want to alienate their known already paying customers in the hope that they can make more money from F2P players with microtransactions.  The whole Dungeon Alert system seems flawed from conception on.  If you want to force players to kill mobs rather than blow past them, use more doorways you can't open until all the mobs in that section have been killed.  They have this in a bunch of quests already; just extend it.  Makes more sense and doesnt punish your current players for playing the way they have always known.  The entire reason for favor and loot speed runs is LACK OF CONTENT.  The game is structure from the ground up on players repeating content several times.  Multple that by several characters each and are we really surprised people want to blow through a dungeon than walk through it for the 50th time?  Bored and waiting for a group to form, you do loot runs in outdoor areas - haste + displacement and blue allows you to just run around to the know rare spawn points only stopping to fight if a named mob has spawned.  Scratch that now. 


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 12, 2009, 02:50:50 PM
Thanks.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Hawkbit on July 13, 2009, 05:44:19 AM
NDA is dropped, but is this still closed beta?  They have a link to download the client right on their site but I can't see were I can get a key. 


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 13, 2009, 06:50:49 AM
NDA is dropped, but is this still closed beta?  They have a link to download the client right on their site but I can't see were I can get a key. 

Still closed. I signed up but haven't gotten any mail or anything.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 13, 2009, 09:38:31 AM
They sent me an invitation about a week after I signed up.  I don't know how quickly people are being let in on average though.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on July 13, 2009, 02:04:06 PM
<snipped>

Ah, well then, the game is fucked either way. They can't pump out enough content, they don't want people blowing through and all there is to do is repeat it. Bound to fail on each step.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Surlyboi on July 14, 2009, 09:19:22 AM
Meh. I logged in and found all my old toons wiped.

Do I want to start this up again?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: kildorn on July 14, 2009, 09:21:18 AM
I liked the game after trying it again, but it has not aged well. It can't handle multiple monitors properly (I can't display at the second monitor's resolution, only the first's), the bloom is holy lawl worthy, and monsters teleport like a bitch.

Also, kobold casters still dodge backwards up walls, which is always hilarious.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 14, 2009, 10:09:44 AM
I liked the game after trying it again, but it has not aged well. It can't handle multiple monitors properly (I can't display at the second monitor's resolution, only the first's), the bloom is holy lawl worthy, and monsters teleport like a bitch.

Also, kobold casters still dodge backwards up walls, which is always hilarious.

Odd considering its the same engine as LOTRO.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on July 14, 2009, 10:13:05 AM
Odd considering its the same engine as LOTRO.

You can repeat this over and over and I don't think I will ever believe it.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Jamiko on July 14, 2009, 12:30:13 PM
Meh. I logged in and found all my old toons wiped.

Do I want to start this up again?

Did you check all the servers? I only ask because mine ended up on a different server than the one I thought they were on when I last played.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 14, 2009, 12:34:20 PM
Odd considering its the same engine as LOTRO.

You can repeat this over and over and I don't think I will ever believe it.

Granted, the artwork for DDO is not the same, and I am sure some game systems are different, but it is the same rendering engine.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Ingmar on July 14, 2009, 12:36:55 PM
AC2 also, no?

I find DDO and LotRO more similar graphically than different. DDO is a little browner and has different character models, otherwise? Pretty darn similar. Everything has that same bloom effect or whatever.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 14, 2009, 12:39:26 PM
AC2 also, no?

I find DDO and LotRO more similar graphically than different. DDO is a little browner and has different character models, otherwise? Pretty darn similar. Everything has that same bloom effect or whatever.

AC2 was the fore runner, I am sure there have been changes made, but yes. its the AC2 engine, updated (http://www.turbine.com/technology/platform.html). I bet the bloom has a slider somewhere, its a post process. Mostly my comment was that it being the same rendering engine, dual monitor should work.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: kildorn on July 14, 2009, 12:43:23 PM
The engine has to be updated, or have straaange options enabled. The behavior is that if I move the window to the second monitor and stretch the display, it resets to the primary monitor at the old resolution. Can't fullscreen to a different output, can't select a higher base res than the primary monitor.

Anyways, the bloom is pretty hilariously worse than LOTRO from what I recall, but I can compare them pretty quickly.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Surlyboi on July 14, 2009, 03:16:47 PM
Meh. I logged in and found all my old toons wiped.

Do I want to start this up again?

Did you check all the servers? I only ask because mine ended up on a different server than the one I thought they were on when I last played.

Yup, checked 'em all. All empty.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 14, 2009, 03:30:30 PM
That is strange, because i logged in and found that my character were untouched after having canceled 1 mo after release.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sophismata on July 15, 2009, 02:09:31 AM
Holy shit, man, cutting up the post into tiny chunks like that is unnerving.

You don't need to include supplements. A core bard, one of the weaker spellcasters, puts out a DC 27 will save or die at level 6.[actually can be more]. Wizards, while they can only get to DC 18-20 or so are much stronger. Core wizards make encounters and even games at all very lethal, nothing else, just core wizards. If you were having problems only with druids then either the people in your games were terrible, or you were arbitrarily limiting wizards.

Unfortunately, most high-level and nearly all special encounters - Constructs and Undead in particular - are completely immune to mind-affecting abilities. Not to mention that the ability you're talking about requires sharing the target's language. Also, it doesn't work in combat. Also, it grants two saving throws. Also, the suggestion saving throw is not based off a skill check. Note that I did say Wizards and Clerics are powerful, but the Druid is more so. The Druid is also incredibly effective right from the get-go (ie, level 1), every supplement you add increases both his spells available (and, like the cleric, he gets them all), and his Wildshape and Animal Companion possibilities.


This is one of the most retarded things i have ever heard anyone say, and i've heard a lot of retarded things.

Casters and multi-stat classes are not penalized. Paladins only have problems in power selection[early power selection for str based Paladins only] and casters have no to-hit problems compared to weapon based classes. While there is a small drop off in effectiveness, the drop off is for everyone, and a slight math error[representing +1-3 to hit over the course of the game] is a pretty small problem all things considered

Seriously, take off your rose colored glasses and play the various systems, 4.0 works better for pretty much everything.

"Too carefully balanced" means just that - the heavy emphasis on equality cuts into the feel of the game. There is very little risk taken in defining class powers, and as a result, they tend to feel very similar. This is, of course, subjective. A +/- 3 error in to-hit is a 15% chance, which, when combined with the careful ~60% average, throws off gameplay to a fair degree. Monsters written in the handbook do not have their natural defenses scale according to the system math, which is why casters (and abilities targeting natural defenses) fall behind. The inclusion of Expertise feats is a rather poor method of addressing these problems. MAD (Multi-Ability-Dependency) is a problem in 4e, and hurts several classes, Paladin and Warlock in particular. Part of this is because of the system's balancing - there is no way to maintain an effective to-hit for three+ stats. Note that the newer classes are SAD (Single-Ability-Dependant).

Note that I did prefix many of my observations with "in my experience", and this is not nostalgia speaking. I really do think that while 4e is a better, more carefully constructed system, it feels and plays very differently to 3.5, and not in an entirely good way. There is something more... staid about it, I suppose.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 15, 2009, 03:31:53 AM
Holy shit, man, cutting up the post into tiny chunks like that is unnerving.
Don't say stupid shit and it won't get cut up

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Unfortunately, most high-level and nearly all special encounters - Constructs and Undead in particular - are completely immune to mind-affecting abilities

Yes, you will note the "unless you take measures to completely make those effects worthless"

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Not to mention that the ability you're talking about requires sharing the target's language. Also, it doesn't work in combat. Also, it grants two saving throws. Also, the suggestion saving throw is not based off a skill check

Irrelevant, wrong, irrelevant, and irrelevant. Everything knows common, it works in combat if you're not utterly retarded, the number of saving throws is irrelevant because they're fascinated and suggesting does not break it

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Note that I did say Wizards and Clerics are powerful, but the Druid is more so

But the Druid is not more so, it doesn't get strong until it gets wildshape, its low level spells just don't have the oomph. Its high level spells don't have the oomph oomph to pull it through in the end. Not compared to wizards, but they're better than clerics.

Quote
"Too carefully balanced" means just that - the heavy emphasis on equality cuts into the feel of the game. There is very little risk taken in defining class powers, and as a result, they tend to feel very similar. This is, of course, subjective. A +/- 3 error in to-hit is a 15% chance, which, when combined with the careful ~60% average, throws off gameplay to a fair degree

No, see the feel of the game is all you, its not anyone else, its you simply being unable to wrap your head around simple concepts like "fighters should not be worthless" and utility spells should not be able to make nearly all combat pointless. Maybe you just haven't played the game, which makes sense if you feel that powers are very similar, or that classes are very similar. They look similar in the same way that wizards and fighters looked similar in 3.5 because both had a BAB and save progression.

Its not a +/- 3 error, its a -1 error, then a -2 error, then a -3 error. And while its a pain, its not the end of the world.

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Monsters written in the handbook do not have their natural defenses scale according to the system math, which is why casters (and abilities targeting natural defenses) fall behind.

Yes they do. Monsters written in the handbook do not have their natural defenses scale according to the math for each NAD between each monster, but nor does AC. Some monsters have better NADs' some have better AC, some are harder to hit in general(soldiers). NAD's scale just fine, on average 2 behind AC. Player NAD's are another issue, but you're supposed to have a weak spot.

Quote
MAD (Multi-Ability-Dependency) is a problem in 4e, and hurts several classes, Paladin and Warlock in particular. Part of this is because of the system's balancing - there is no way to maintain an effective to-hit for three+ stats. Note that the newer classes are SAD (Single-Ability-Dependant).

No, it isn't. MAD really is not a problem in 4e. The Paladin is just fine except its a needs a few more str based powers for paladins whose secondary is not charisma[Which is a fine secondary for a Paladin, better than wisdom.]. Warlocks have problems not because they have to choose con or cha with an int secondary to use, but because they just don't do enough damage to be a good striker, which is not really a systemic issue [as spells were] and isn't large enough to cause massive problems in game


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sophismata on July 15, 2009, 04:58:42 AM
... Wow, you did it again.


Yes, you will note the "unless you take measures to completely make those effects worthless"

Irrelevant, wrong, irrelevant, and irrelevant. Everything knows common, it works in combat if you're not utterly retarded, the number of saving throws is irrelevant because they're fascinated and suggesting does not break it

...because Undead, Demons, Devils, Constructs and the like are such rare D&D encounters that including them is tantamount to to 'taking measures to make suggestion worthless'. Since your reading comprehension seems lacking, I'll point out that that was sarcasm.

Also, I suggest you re-read the Player's Handbook.


But the Druid is not more so, it doesn't get strong until it gets wildshape, its low level spells just don't have the oomph. Its high level spells don't have the oomph oomph to pull it through in the end. Not compared to wizards, but they're better than clerics.

No, see the feel of the game is all you, its not anyone else, its you simply being unable to wrap your head around simple concepts like "fighters should not be worthless" and utility spells should not be able to make nearly all combat pointless. Maybe you just haven't played the game, which makes sense if you feel that powers are very similar, or that classes are very similar. They look similar in the same way that wizards and fighters looked similar in 3.5 because both had a BAB and save progression.

Its not a +/- 3 error, its a -1 error, then a -2 error, then a -3 error. And while its a pain, its not the end of the world.


Okay, I can understand why you don't get this. Strictly speaking, an arcane caster can be more powerful than the divine casters (before Divine Metamagic), but that's not my argument. In practice, the Druid is the most powerful class in the core book, not because noone can hope to match him, but because he's strong without even trying. Furthermore, he lacks the stigma associated with Clerics and Wizards that leads them down 'sub-optimal' paths.


Sorta-edit: fuck this, I had a 5 paragraph explanation for this shit but it doesn't belong in a DDO thread. Check out this (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=CoDzilla), this (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-717485.html), or just search D&D forums for the term "CoDzilla". It crops up a lot. I also suggest looking up the martial / caster imbalance in D&D 4e.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Goumindong on July 15, 2009, 06:15:11 AM
Yes, everyone knows what CoDzilla is, but it has that name not because its stronger than wizards, or that it does so without trying. It has that name because it performs both as well as a fighter while being a full spellcaster.

You do not have to try to make wizards better than clerics and druids, and there is no "stigma" that makes classes worse... Unless you're saying that druids are stronger than Wizards and Clerics because people consciously choose for their Wizards and Clerics to be sub-optimal while making good choices for their Druid? Because then your argument breaks down to "Druids are better than Wizards because Wizards are better than Druids"

And there really is no martial/caster imbalance in 4e, you're imagining it.

Quote
Also, I suggest you re-read the Player's Handbook.

On what account, that you're not intelligent enough to take measures to go first,[by either improved init or allies who are smart enough to delay?] or that you falsely think a bards suggestion breaks fascination?


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: UnSub on July 15, 2009, 07:08:52 AM
What a fascinating, MMO-related argument.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Surlyboi on July 15, 2009, 07:50:30 AM
Sir Bruce would be proud. All that's missing is CHARTS!


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Sophismata on July 15, 2009, 08:50:34 AM
Sir Bruce would be proud. All that's missing is CHARTS!
I didn't want to bring up Sir Bruce, since I wasn't around back then, but I was tempted. I was provided a very nice picture of Sir Brucery in my first month here.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on July 15, 2009, 09:38:47 AM
If anyone cares, my real character is on Sarlona.  Rogue/Ranger named Sylphaela.  At least until I get some unlocks.  I've stopped playing the beta for now since I'll just be repeating the work, and they've pretty much tested everything I have access to.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on July 17, 2009, 08:09:36 AM
Don't say stupid shit and it won't get cut up

Stop it.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on July 25, 2009, 02:26:14 PM
Smalf von Bittern


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: NiX on July 25, 2009, 04:11:24 PM
Smalf von Bittern

You always brighten my day!


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Draegan on August 05, 2009, 05:26:27 PM
So I'm downloading the 10 day free trial that's available right now.  Though I should tell someone.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Yegolev on August 10, 2009, 08:02:50 PM
I'm trying to get motivated to play this again.  Poor, poor Smalf.


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Lantyssa on August 11, 2009, 09:00:22 AM
They pushed the new opening back a bit:
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DDO Unlimited has a new launch date of September 9th, 2009 (headstart begins September 1st, 2009 for VIPs). If you've not heard the news yet, be sure to click here for more information!


Title: Re: DDO goes F2P. - (DDO Unlimited)
Post by: Draegan on August 11, 2009, 09:42:08 AM
I'm trying to get motivated to play this again.  Poor, poor Smalf.

I stopped downloading the game half way through and instead installed and began playing the UO-WOW private server thing.