f13.net

So I got a weight bench cheap on Craiglist....Ok, so I should probably sign up on some serious muscle/fitness forum but I really just need basic advice. My googling must be off cause I am not having much luck.

So here goes..... Is there a problem with the muscle groups I have targets on certain days?

Monday: Chest / Triceps
Chest -
Incline Dumbbell Press x 3
Flat Bench Press x 3
Flat Dumbbell Flys x 3

Triceps-
Dumbbell Kickbacks x 3
Skullcrushers x 3
-----------------------------------------
Tuesday: Rest

Wednesday: Biceps, Back, Shoulders

Shoulders:
Lateral Dumbbell Raise x3
Overhead Dumbbell Press x 3
Vertical Dumbbell Raise x 3

Back:
Dumbbell Shrug x 3
Dumbbell Bentover Row x 3

Biceps:
Barbell Preacher Curl x 3
Hammer Curl x 2
Dumbbell/Barbell Curls x 3

Thursday and Friday Off

Saturday: Legs and Abs

Squats
Calf Raises
Crunches

Needs cardio.

Where is the cardio work?

Good advice, but overall does the lifting part seem ok?

The Cardio, diet, and stopping smoking are all on stuff I plan on improving. For now I wanna start getting a little cut up for the summer. Being a single man and all again.

Doesn't need cardio, especially if his goal is to be in calorie surplus.

Cardio is healthy, but sometimes counterproductive.

A quick look says you're not doing enough for your back or your legs. Add deadlifts and accomplish more for both in one exercise. Take some of the bicep curls out (that's a lot of bicep curls) and add chinups. Biceps + back.

Yeah I actually pulled something in my Bi (not too bad)...I was kinda going crazy on them cause that's an area I was focusing on. Big arms, nice cut chest, Broad, strong shoulders. Legs I've never cared much about, and I dont have chicken legs so its cool. No chinup bar, but I like the deadlift addition.

Shrugs will work your upper traps (shoulders) more than your back.  For back workouts, I'd get a pullup bar.  Wide grip will work your inner back and narrow grip will work your lats.  Add bent-over rows for completeness. 

 

The thing they say about the legs, and why squats are so important, is because you body wants to be in balance.  Working your legs via squats especially not only stimulates leg growth, but growth in the whole body.  It's the single most important lift, by most accounts I have seen.

And what Azaroth said about the cardio.  It depends on your goals.  If you are trying to put on muscle, then cardio may actually sabotage that effort.  The most efficient way to gain muscles is to lift weights, eat like a horse and avoid or minimize the cardio.  To get the lean look later, you then add some cardio and cut calories.  

I work on legs primarily because building the large muscle groups is the easiest way to increase my basal metabolic rate.  Lats, Pecs, Quads, and Delts are easy to gain mass in and thus allow you to eat more every day without gaining weight!

More food = more better. 

That's a very good point.  It's nice having enough extra muscle that putting on weight is actually a chore.

Good stuff guys, and yeah you are right about the Shrugs....I to them targetting my Upper shoulder...and dont know any other good workout for it....Are those called Traps? I do bent over rows currently as one of my only real back ones....

Traps = Trapezius muscles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezius)

Shrugs infront of you work them well.  Shrugs with a barbell behind you will give different emphasis. 

You need more lat work for the back.  I strongly urge you to get a good pullup bar for this as machines seem to be the best way to target this group and a pullup bar is MUCH cheaper.

As a substitute, I think I remember doing some type of fly for them (though I was doing pullups back then too). Maybe a Standing, bent-over dumbbell fly? (for lats that is)

You can do a reverse fly (laying face down on the bench) as a substitute.  To include some shoulder in the exercise, do a flay facing a bench on an incline. 

Bent over rows SUCK, by the way.  I do them, but not because I like to.  I don't know if it's just because I'm struggling to get the form down, or if it's because I'm getting close to pulling my own weight - it just doesn't seem like an intuitive position.

Did you get a power rack, or just a regular old rack?  The power rack is nice, because it allows you to push it without fear of getting in trouble.

Of all the exercises I do I find Dumbell kickbacks really really hard to do properly for good effect. Maybe it's a matter of personal preference, but I think for your triceps you get much better mileage doing dips.

For a chin-up bar the P90X ones are the best designed I have ever seen. I have used a friend's one and found it to be very suited and easy to install. Also it seems a lot less prone to falling down than some of the more typical designs.

(http://www.chinupbar.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/p90x-chin-up-bar-z-300x300.jpg)

Also, did you get an olympic bar with your bench? If you did I'd seriously look into adding squats and deadlifts in somewhere.

Lastly, consider the sequence you exercise in. I was always taught to do compound lifts before you do isolation lifts, which seems to work, and makes sense to me.


I get this too, I find a mix of bent-over flys, chin-ups and rows do my upper back much better. Also I have tried doing flat pull-ups (not sure of the proper name, but it's basically the reverse of a push-up) and didn't feel like I was getting anything out of it.

I always kink my upper back with bent over rows. Not pleasant.

There's an upright machine that helps you perform the same movement more safely that I've been thinking of adding to my home gym. It's such a killer exercise, you can't just drop it. But yeah, I fucking hate doing it with free weights. One of my most despised exercises in practice.

Wide grip pullups, close grip sitting rows (machine), and lat pull downs (machine) are a must for my back workouts.  I also include single arm dumbbell rows, but I'm capped at the university gym as they don't have any dumbells larger than 100lbs.   I've gone almost entirely to machines and pullups for back.  The beauty of pullups is that you can always add weight using a belt and weights from your barbell set.   

Oh how I look forward to the day I can do an unassisted pull-up again  :awesome_for_real:

Not to derail too much, but I was wondering about fitness standards to apply workouts against:  personally, I know which exercises to do, but I can never find good goals.

I did find the following standards used by the Marine Corps as their PFT requirements.  This would be from the point of view of general fitness, not going for any specific shape or look.

Marine Corps Minimum PFT Requirements (for my age):

Pull-ups (palm forward): 3
Crunches: 45 (in 2 minutes, crossed arms, elbows touching thighs)
3-mile run: 29 minutes

If I understand correctly, each of the three activities are scored on a scale of 100 points, with a total score of 300 being the maximum:

Pull-ups (palm forward): 20
Crunches: 100 (in 2 minutes)
3-mile run: 18 minutes

There is also a Body Composition requirement for my height:
Maximum Weight: 232 lbs
Maximum Body Fat (if over the maximum weight): 18%

Would this be a good general fitness level to attain for someone who is 34 years old?  I figure if you can achieve a 300 point fitness score in the Marine Corps then you would be generally as fit as would be required for good health.

Also, I cannot find any fitness requirements for push-ups for the Marine Corps, but I assume that they would be good to add into a regiment.  The Navy defines the following standards:

Pushups: 37 (minimum, in 2 minutes) to 87 ('Outstanding')

So would this be a reasonable goal to shoot for?  I like the fact that I can measure my performance every month or so, and compute my PT score just like would be done in the military.  Plus, no special equipment seems to be necessary other than a pull-up bar.

I was thinking that the 1st class score for my age of 200 points would be a good first target to shoot for.  This would be similar to the following:

Pull-ups (palm forward): 14
Crunches: 66 (in 2 minutes)
3-mile run: 23:40
Push-ups: 50 (in 2 minutes)

This is a lofty goal for me, since right now I run a 10 minute mile (I can do 1.5 miles before having to stop), I can't do ANY pull-ups unassisted, and I can do about 40 crunches in 2 minutes, and about 10 pushups.

It is completely possible to attain those goals. Just a matter of time (current fitness) and dedication. The bigger you are the more difficult most of those exercises will be. The three mile run in 18 minutes will be the biggest hurdle.

I've seen people way higher than 18% bodyfat get into the Marines lawl.

Apparently the 18% only is factored if you are over the maximum body weight.  If you are both over the maximum weight and over 18% fat, then you have a certain amount of time to bring one into compliance.

I guess what I am ultimately wondering is if attaining a 200 point score, and maintaining it, would be 'good enough' for general fitness and health.

Well, I've seen very different is all.

I really like cable machines for rows, plus you can do a host of other exercises with them.

Here's my standard workout week (if you happen to find it helpful)

Sat/Sun off

Monday: Chest and triceps

Decline barbell presses
Incline dumbell presses
Compound set: dumbell flys to failue followed immediately by pushups to failure

Tricep pushdowns
Narrow grip barbell (bench) presses
Compound set: Overhead single arm dumbell extensions followed by overhead two arm dumbell extensions (both to failure)

Tuesday: Legs & Abs
Squats
Forward leg curls
Reverse leg curls
dumbell lunges
Weighted Calf raises

Incline crunches
Vertical knee raise
lower ab leg raises
side crunches for obliques

Wed: Shoulders/traps

Military presses
lateral arm raises
Compound set: upright barbell rows followed by upright 45lb plate rows both to failure
Shrugs

Thurs: Legs & Abs (see above)

Friday: Back and biceps

Compound set: Wide grip pullups followed by wide grip lat pull downs (both to failure)
narrow grip seated rows
One arm dumbell bent-over rows

Single arm hammer dumbell curls
barbell curls using a preacher bench
pullups (palm toward you)

I don't work biceps all that hard on Fridays since they get enough work the rest of the week. 

My running regiment:

Sunday: long run (usually an hour or so)
M, T, Th, F: short/fast run (30 mins)
Wed: Interval or fartlek training (usually 200 - 400 yard sprints followed by an equal distance walk/jog)

Saturday off

If I'm feeling ambitious, I also ride my stationary bike for 20 - 30 mins.   

Jesus I got exhausted just reading that schedule.  :ye_gods:

I should note that I try to keep my workouts well under an hour in length.  The keys to building muscle are a) having a high intensity workout rather than a long workout,  b) allowing proper recovery intervals to avoid overtraining and injury, c) get adequate sleep and d) maintain proper nutrition (including water intake). 

Do you do your lifts explosive then?

Do you do your cardio separate from your lifting then? Also, how often to you vary your exercise pattern, if ever? I have been advised several times that it is good to change exercise patterns every 3months or so, but haven't really managed to stick to such a rigid pattern change yet.

You need to understand what your goals (short and long term) are before worrying too much about the specifics.  As far as changing patterns:  is what you are doing still keeping you on the path to achieving your goal?  If yes, don't change a thing. 

My goals are well defined, and I have met many of them over the last 14 months. The main ones I am still working on are being able to shoulder press my body weight, rep my body weight on the bench and double that on deadlift. It was mentioned that improvements from a rigid workout diminish after 3-4months and it can be beneficial to rework the pattern of exercises and the exercises you do to work your muscles in slightly different ways. I feel that my rate of improvement is diminishing, so I'm varying my individual daily work outs, so what I do for shoulders one week may be a different set of exercises to what I do for shoulders the next. I'm just wondering what degree of variation (if any) I should be aiming for.

Not sure what you mean here.  I usually do my sets in volume training fashion (5 sets of each exercise, set 1 at 80% effort, set 2 at 90%, sets 3-5 at max to failure).  I add at least 5 lbs to my max every week for large muscle group exercises to keep my muscles challenged. 


1) I lift in the early afternoon and run either first thing in the morning (best) or late at night according to the demands of my work schedule. 

2) I change my workout routine every 10-12 weeks.  Your body adapts to your workouts, so even if you lift to failure you will still have long plateaus if you don't.

Hope that answers the questions.  Keep in mind that I'm in my 40's.  I have to workout pretty damn hard to stay as fit as you young guys. 

So it seems your overriding goal is "to get stronger".  As such, unless you want the possible aerobic benefits, you don't really have a need for any cardio at this time.  It may actually be counter-prodcutive, as it may lead to a calorie deficit.  Which makes it harder to build muscle and gain strength.  That's why I was asking.  

If you're at the point that the returns are diminishing a bit too much, then maybe it's time to consider something else.  That said, I'd personally be inclined to milk a working program for nearly all that it's worth.  I'm on a linear program right now (5x5), so it will probably be easier to see when I hit the wall.  

Out of curiosity, how much do you weigh?  I find your specific goals interesting, in that my own ratios are so different...i.e. I need a bit of work before I'll be able to military press my own weigth, can very easily bench my own weight and a lot more, and am nowhere close yet on deadlifts.

When I played football in college, I played at 205 lbs (6'0" tall and about 6% body fat).  Currently, I'm about 195 and closer to 10% body fat.  Right now (at 195) I can only military (seated, behind the head) about 155lbs.  Some of this is due to shoulder damage and resulting surgeries I had in college (multiple shoulder separations, 1 dislocation involving a lot of ligament damage). 

I run only during cut phases, which I do every Spring/early summer.  I use the winter to gain mass/strength.  The heft of my weight workouts now is to keep my muscle loss during the cut to a minimum.  As to your question about calories, my metabolism in my 40's is a lot slower than it was in my 20's.  I can gain mass on about a 3k calorie diet.  When I was playing football, I worked out less and ate closer to 6-8k.  The only time I really had a high calorie demand in college was during preseason 2- or 3-a-days. 

How exactly do you work the "To failure" thing?  Are you attempting the same amount of reps for the first 2 sets, but then just keep going until your arms give out for the final 3, adding more and more weight each time?  Also, how long do you wait between sets and exercises?  I have a hard time attempting this method without blowing out my arms and being unable to lift anything else afterwards, heh.

Going to be starting a new workout myself soon.

Most of the time this requires a spotter (second person) unless you are using dumbells... even then a spotter may be required. 

To build muscle, you need to tell your body that your current build is insuficient for the task.  You do this by taxing your muscles to the point of failure.  By "failure" I mean that you cannot complete the last rep.  For best results, you want to fail on the second or third to last rep so that you get some assist on those reps to get the most out of your breakdown.  In my personal workouts, I try to do 5 reps at max weight.  Often I can get 5 on the first set and then 3 or 4 on the remaining.  If I can do 5 reps for each of the last three sets, it means that I'm not taxing myself enough and I add weight.

Thanks, that was what I was wondering. I've never heard of lifting to failure except in the context of doing supersets. Do you see this as a style of workout, or more of a type of exercise.


Strength is my main goal yes. I am somewhat loathe to skip cardio entirely, as I feel a complete workout is important, although I agree with the calorie deficit comment (although I have never thought of it in such exact terms). I walk or bike 2.5miles in and out of work every day, so I am not completely idle in that regard, however increasingly I am splitting cardio sessions apart from weight sessions, which I think is probably for the best.

As far as programs go, I have switched to 5x5 about a month ago and I think I'm starting to see benefit. The difficulty I have is knowing how to balance sets of exercises within a workout. However as summer comes up and my evenings become a little more free due to holidays I would like to develop a more rigorous exercise pattern.

I weigh 91kg (200lbs, 6'1/2") and I'm maxing at around 82.5 kg (181lb) on the shoulder press. My bench is poor because frankly I don't enjoy it, so I neglect it, I currently rep around 75(165lb) without a spot fairly safely, but find that beyond that my performance drops drastically. Deadlifts I can rep ~130kp quite comfortably when fresh, but I can see a lot of potential for improvement there. I find that relating goals to my body weight helps me work towards them more than just an arbitrary number. I can envisage doing handstand pressups easier than lifting a 90 kilo weight over my head for example. The goals I have achieved in the last 14 months were to be able to do 3 sets of 8 chin ups with no difificulty and the same for dips. Dips were probably the easiest of the bunch in hindsight, and I think deadlifts will be the hardest as I reckon I will hit a wall around 150kg.

I see it as a means to an end.  Working to failure with high weight and low reps is the best way to increase gains.  If you want to build strength and mass, this is the way to do it.  Doing 10-12 reps of an exercise accomplishes little more than increasing endurance with very moderate strength/size gains.  If you want to get bigger and stronger, you need to have VERY intense workouts.  Intense to the point of serious muscle pain and fatigue (without causing injury). 

The first set or two of my 5 is always meant to be a warmup.  It helps prepare me for the heavier weight.  I also spend 10 mins stretching before a workout. 

Do you not have problems maintaining form? One of the reasons I'm liking 5x5 at the moment is that it pushes me hard, but I'm almost always maintaining good form. Maybe it depends on the type of lift you are doing.

K9, this statement is confusing me a little, but maybe I'm not reading it correctly.  As mentioned, I too am doing a 5x5.  I might be completely OCD about it, but what it means is that I am following a VERY EXACTING plan.  I can literally tell you exactly what I will be bench pressing three weeks from Friday on my 3rd set out of 5....assuming I don't fail on anything between now and then.  I actually have a spreadsheet covering every single lift I will make.  It's as specific as it can possibly be.  The whole point is that it increases all of your Personal Bests in a very linear and exacting fashion.  Except for my Wednesday squats, every other 5th set I perform is some kind of Personal Best.  That's the whole point.

Is that what you're doing?  If not, you need to rethink your 5x5.  It's plenty taxing, I promise.  If this is what you're doing, feel free to call me a dickface.

If you don't have good form with heavy weight, you WILL get injured.  Even to failure it is important to maintain proper form.  Sadly, many in the gym don't follow this... often suffering the consequences. 

I might be the one being a dickface. To me 5x5 means a programme where you do exercises as 5 sets of 5 reps at around 85% of your max. When I say I lack rigour I mean that from week to week I will not always work the same muscles on the same day, nor do exactly the same exercises each time. So for instance, I've just got in from the gym where I did 4x8 chinups and 5x9 weightless squats as warmup, then 5x 5reps of powercleans (60-70kg), 5x 5reps of bent over rows (67.5kg), 5x 5 reps of seated rows (80kg) and then I gave upright rows with a 25kg plate to failure for three sets to see what it was like. Now with most of the sets my form is great for 3, passable for the 4th and then starting to go on the 5th, which I believe is the idea behind the system. I may be completely wrong though, in which case I welcome corrections and comments.

For my weekly back workout I may substitute in deadlifts, snatches or good mornings and various exercises with the cable machine depending on my mood. This is broadly what I mean by my lack of discipline in the pattern of my exercises. I normally aim to do 5 different types of exercise, working compound -> isolation, but I don't always do the same 5.

Okay, understood.  You should consider doing one of the literal 5x5 programs.  Here's the one I do (unavailable at the moment, but check back later):

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm)

If you follow it, it will force you into setting records and constantly improving.  In the roughly 6 weeks I have been doing it (not counting the first couple weeks of acclimation), I have been adding around 5 pounds to each of my records every week, without fail.  The key is to follow it exactly, and don't change shit around EVER.

The only thing I do in addition is that add stuff for the weekend:

Saturday:
5x5 Incline Presses (I do Military on Wednesdays)
Weighted situps (I do these every day I workout)
Lat Pull downs (I do wide grip pullups on Mondays, so this is complimentary)
Preacher curls (I do chins on Wednesdays)

Sunday:

5x5 Decline Presses
Weighted situps
Open Butterfly Presses
Tricep Pushodowns

Anyway, it works.  I continue to increase my lifts, quite literally every time I workout.

Some things I learned about Cardio (and it took me a few years to learn it)

1) I was doing way to much of it (20+ miles a week)
2) Running 20 miles a week destroys my knees as I get older.
3) If I am trying to lose weight, Cardio is much less effective then resistance training.
4) If I build muscle mass, I can eat like a normal American and still keep my weight down. 

My Cardio now consists of doing the elliptical once a week. YMMV.

Note: I came down with Vasculitis a few years ago, and it sort of left me with arthritis in my knees.

Makes sense to me.  I've actually started some cardio once again, as I'm back to my cutting phase.  I do it for two reasons:  one, so that I can burn more calories so that I don't have to starve myself while cutting.  I still lift according to the same schedule above, with some minor tweaks.

Two, and most importantly, because I just feel better when I'm in good cardio shape.  I usually just do about 20 minutes of kickboxing a day (which is awesome for several reasons) and I'll start cycling a little when the stupid weather improves.  Basketball ad-hoc.

Why Thank You internet!

heh.. i've resorted to little but this currently. and having good posture in general. :P

i'll go back to regular exercise once i know my lower back is like superman's. and to slightly keep it on topic, i think if anybody is out of shape, they probably should be doing the same. whether they're skinny or obese. personally, i've lost too much weight. not good.

anyhow, take your time on the big plan. just build your back and core first.

Ok, well ... about two months in and here is what I currently do

Monday -

3 x Flat Bench Press
3 x Dumbbell Kickbacks
3 x Flys
3 x skullcrushers
3 x Incline Dumbbell Press

Wednesday

3 x Barbell Curl (Curl bar)
3 x Vertical arm raise
3 x Shoulder Shrug
3 x Preacher Curl
3 x Bent Over Row
3 x Lateral Arm Raise
3 x Military Press


Overall it's a fairly light workout, but I have noticed solid improvement. I am getting compliments now when my shirt is off, my man boobs are starting to look like pecs again. My biceps are swoll. Best part is, I was at Kid rock wearing a tight t-shirt when a hot blonde in the seat behind me started chatting me up, then rubbing on my shoulders asking if I worked out (she said she could tell). About 15 minutes after that we were all over each other. Go booze and concerts!

That is my main reason for working out. That and I carry myself with better posture and have more confidence in my looks. Confidence is everything with ladies.

Congrats man.

Is it just the 2 days a week you are working out?

5x5 on everything?

How much cardio are you supplementing, if at all?

Thanks Hat.

Yes, just the two days. It has been hard keeping my workout partner motivated, but we haven't missed one.

The cardio I get is from the workout itself , and sex.  ;)

Not sure what you mean by 5x5...

For my presses I try to keep the weight where I am doing 6-8 reps per set. I'm trying to still build muscle mass before switching over to around 10-12 reps to tone. The lighter dumbbell stuff, like the shoulders and kickbacks, I don't move weight much just allow myself more reps to tone.

lol

You went to a kid rock concert.

I'm sure Nebu will say this (and has), but you should just concentrate on one or other. Bulk up now, up the ante a little every week, eat a bunch, rest, enjoy yourself. Cardio later. Err, unless your real goal is simply cardio? Then just do that.

[edit] Just to add, I'm in no position to really give advice, so I don't want to sound like a know-it-all... Nebu is the man here, I think.. But I've done what you're doing before. There are better ways to bulk and better ways for cardio.

There is no better cardio than sex.

Congrats man, keep up the good work. You got any plans to adjust or vary the workout, or is this the routine you find the most fun and effective?

I also look forward to your cover of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VGUabHlXDA&feature=related)  :awesome_for_real:

I've just started a high rep 60% weight routine.  Same basic exercises that I vary week to week but I do three sets of 20 but at around 60% of max weight.

See if it helps me.  I'm finding it difficult to get a good pec workout with Chest days but I'm doing the correct workout regime.
Hmm.

Fuck yeah I did.

with Cypress Hill and Alice in Chains. And about 10,000 hot chicks :)

 :roll:

Uh, Alice in Chains doesn't exist anymore. Not to me they don't!  :grin:

Have you tried weighted dips, or even just regular dips?

Anyone know a good site to show proper form? My friend gave me a workout to do, but I'm not too up on proper form doing the specific exercises.

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html (http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html)


I haven't seen too many of the demos, but the ones I have seen have been good.  I scrolled down to see who did the bench press demonstration and it was by a guy who wrote an excellent book on lifting that includes 40 pages dedicated to the bench press.

Well, I saw them at Lollapalooza 93 and am a real fan as well. Still good to hear em live.

Heh, funny I didn't think to go there because my friend who gave me the workout works at a Crossfit gym.

Yup.

Typical Chest/Tri workout is something like this:

Bench Press,
Incline and Decline Fly or Press depending on machine/weight availability.

Then I do some rope pulldowns, kickbacks, dips

Then I move on to the cables and do elevated, horizontal, and low cable flys then perhaps some single cable pushdowns for my tris.

That make sense?
I usually do 4 sets for the initial exercise in a muscle group followed by 3 sets for every other exercise.  Typical reps are 15,12,10,8 for the 4 sets, and 12 10 10 for the 3 sets.

To put on mass (read: muscle), you want HEAVY weights with fewer reps.  That's sorta what a 5x5 is all about...5 sets of 5 reps, where you increase weight until you are at your 5 rep maximum weight.  A good linear program will have you setting a new personal best of some kind with every 5th set you perform.

Toning is a misnomer.  You can either build muscle or lose fat.  If you want to build muscle, read my first sentence from above.  If you want to "tone" (lose fat), then do more cardio.  Doing a greater number of reps with less weight is an inefficient way to build muscle...the only thing it will do for you is make you good at lifting that particular amount of weight.  If your body feels that it doesn't need the big muscle mass to move the heaviest weights, then it will begin to metabolize those muscles.  Muscle is built by showing said muscles their current limits, and supplying them the fuel (food) to build enough to break through those limits.

If you mean "toning" in the sense of targeting specific muscles and working on them specifically, well, okay.  Just be aware that this should be done as an exception, and still with heavy weights.  The best exercises are always COMPOUND lifts...you need to be moving more than one joint, and therefore, more than one muscle group at a time, in order to get the maximum effect.

Thanks, this may be basic stuff that I just never learned or was taught the wrong shit.

5 x 5 huh? Might be trying that tonight, thanks.

Building muscle mass will enable you to shed excess fat more efficiently though, in parallel with mid-intensity cardio; so I don't see it as an either-or thing. I agree though that overall though you get the most benefit from doing lower reps with higher weight.

I'm slightly torn on high-rep stuff; going for big weights hasn't offered me any improvement in stamina that doing high-rep activities do. For example, upping my bench doesn't improve my ability to do high numbers of repetitions of an excercise such as push-ups. I realise the two activities are not entirely equivalent, but you get the idea. I'm trying to include a day a week where I do weightless exercises (various push up, handstand presses, dips, chins etc) aiming for reps to failure in most cases. I'll see how it goes, I'd like to develop more stamina as well as strength.


I think a general rule of thumb is that any lift where you can do 12+ reps, or where you aren't tired at the end of a set (excluding warm-ups of course) you are not lifting enough weight. Ideally once warmed up you should be doing sets where you are struggling by the last rep in the set, and that should be after 4-8 reps. Of course, always be careful and if you are doing exercises close to your limit always make sure you have a spot, don't take chances and get pinned under a bar you can't lift.

Also, I've always stuck to the principle that you should do compound exercises before isolation exercises.

It is true that adding muscle will help you to shed fat more quickly, simply because having increased muscle mass will also increase your metabolism (your muscles need to eat, after all).  The point is, doing both the weight training and cardio at the same time is less efficient if you are trying to put on muscle.  Your body needs to be in caloric excess in order for it to build muscle at night during sleepy time (note:  you better be getting close to 8 hours of solid sleep).  Doing cardio uses those calories for something else and will limit your potential gains.

That said, I've said it before in this thread or one of the others:  Define Your Goal.  What are you trying to achieve?  You have to answer that question before even bothering to take any advice, including anything I've written here.

Slayerik - don't go willy nilly into a 5x5, you need an exacting plan.  I recommend this one: 

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm (http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm)

More than the just advice, use their spreadsheet.  Follow the lifts to the letter, and it will work...at least for a while.  Make sure you either have a rack or a spotter, because you will be at the edge of failure with heavy weights constantly.  Also, spend your first day determining your 5 rep maximums, i.e. how much weight can you lift where the 6th rep would likely fail?  That's how you determine your starting point, which they conservatively set 4 weeks short of those maximums. 

Supplement with a few isolation or other exercises as desired.  You'll probably want to throw in some crunches, pullups and dips if you can.  I tend to throw in some inclines and declines on the weekends, where I also do any isolation lifts I feel like doing.

Hope you like squats.  You eventually won't.

Good advice.

Don't feel bad Slayerik.. Even though it is basic shit, few people seem to know it. And half of the time, the people selling advice out there go by plans that aren't even relevant to people new or fairly new to weightlifting routines (and they're probably taking drugs to boot, so their methods definitely don't help). What Cyrex or Nebu says is the bottom line basic shit, and it's only lately that I'm finally learning to just apply it myself. Muscles simply won't grow unless they're shocked into having to deal/compensate for the heavy load you're putting on them. And then progressively do more, constantly making them compensate. Eventually you'll peak and things get slower, but when guys follow this, they bulk up a lot in the starting period. The only thing he didn't mention is you simply gotta eat. A ton. Pack on the pounds.. worry about shedding fat later.

Right.  I didn't know any of this shit a half a year ago either.  I'm very much in the middle of my journey still.  I just happen to be OCD about things that interest me.

Eating enough to pack on the muscle is harder than it sounds, because you obviously don't want to eat too much crap, either.  It can also be tough to get it into your head that adding on a bit of extra fat goes hand in hand.  I still struggle with that one.

Also, be aware that "efficient" may not equal "healthiest".  A weight gain diet isn't going to be adding years to your lifespan.  It might do the opposite.

You've gotta work your way up to eating too. Start at 3000, move up to 4 or 5. edit: Find a meal plan and follow it. Best not to do the guesswork.

BUT.. well, I'm trying something new. I've tried dabbling with vegetarianism before, but I'm going to give it more of a shot this time. It's possible to get up to 4000 that way (with some protein powder as well). It also helps to get a juicer, period. Vegetarian or not.

Most people won't need anything near 4000 calories, but everyone is geared differently, I suppose.  Best thing to do is to figure out your average calorie intake (for most people, between 2000 and 2500 I believe) and add about 500 calories per day.  If that works, keep it there.  If not, add another 500.

I'd struggle on a veggie diet, simply because you'd have to eat so god damn much.  Also, you have to make sure you are getting lots of protein, which is obviously easier with dead animal carcass.  Unless fish is still on your diet, in which case almost nothing is better than tuna.

I'm hovering between 6'4" and 6'5".. I'd barely sustain myself on 2,000 calories even if I was fairly sedentary. Forgot what the acronym was, but there is a rating that shows what your body needs even without activity, funnily enough. Anyhow, for bulking up, I need about 3,600 to be more accurate, but I round it out to 4000.

Anyhow, a dinner meal could be soy burgers (like 4 patties), some baked beans, potatoes, and some light cheddar, and it'd still be a 900 calorie meal. I'd get about 84g of protein out of it too. You could sauté vegetable protein, mix with some rice and veggies, and hit 900 cals.. and about the same number of grams of protein too. Both would have about 100g of carbs, and very little fat.

I really don't expect anyone to follow suit, but just mentioning it. I have an appetite for meat, but I really don't like dealing with it.

At some point, you have to decide if you are working out to just be healthy or if you are looking to put on 30 pounds of muscle.  Which way are you trying to go?

BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate).

2000 calories is the guideline amount for a woman, it's 2500 for a man. For a male doing regular exercise the ideal for average blokes is around 3000-3200 calories per day, spread over 4 meals as I recall. I wouldn't ever aim to have a calorific intake goal, and 5000 calories a day would require some really intense training to burn off; rather I would match your calorific intake to your needs as you train.

Well you have to be intense anyways!  :awesome_for_real:


Not everyone needs 5000 calories, of course. That's definitely needed for somebody big, and looking to get bigger (and often, they're consuming more than that in their training periods. If I was looking to bulk up to a QB's size or something, I definitely would be consuming 5k cals eventually.. But I'm not. My goals are relatively modest, and yet I still have to shoot for close to 4000 cal).

And if you don't have a calorie goal in mind, then you don't really have a complete plan, a fridge stocked with the things you need, and just generally speaking, a whole lifestyle you need to switch to and follow. I'm sure a well disciplined person can already figure it out on their own, but the average joe needs to be told what to do and have some signs and numbers pointing him around on his path. Else he's walking in the dark and getting shitty results.

I just want to put on muscle. I don't care too much about the healthy part at this point, as I have vices I'd rather kick first for the healthy track.

4th set into my 5x5 , I already like it better. I feel like I am working my muscles much harder.

Question though...I'm working Bi's/Shoulder/back ....my arms are already kinda at failure point... do I do another 5 x 5 on different type of curl? Seems like a lot....but I can push it.

I don't do 5x5 (but something along the same lines).. But anyways, if I understand correctly.. you're at failure point at 4? Then you've loaded too much. Just gauge what you can do at 5x5. Then load the weight you're failing at now the next time around. That said, you worked your arm anyways at 4 sets. It's not like the body knows the 5x5 system and will refuse to build or anything. "HAHA! FAIL!" :P But it's a good idea to follow the program. Things can start getting unbalanced otherwise.

If you're pushing it hard you shouldn't need to be doing more than 3 types of lift really. Start with squats, and then do 5 sets of three other types of lift and you should have pushed yourself enough. It's a more efficient workout than doing 3 easy sets of 7 different types of lift. Also you should probably do different lifts on your two gym days. So deadlift, cleans and rows one day; bench press, push press and something else on the other. Always do squats first though, as your legs are the biggest muscle groups you can work, and you reap greater benefits by starting with them.

Or, you can quite literally follow the link I posted above, which will tell you...

Monday:
Squats
Bench
Bent Rows

Wednesday:
Squats
Military
Deadlifts

Friday:
Squats
Bench
Bent Rows

There are lots of squats for a reason (Wednesday is a light day of squats, the Deads are the focus for that day).  As your energy permits, add dips, pullups and some sort  of crunch/ab exercise (you NEED to do these exercises, but find out which days you are best able to manage which ones).  This will target every major muscle group in the most efficient way possible.  If you are doing anything else, you are potentially wasting energy.  Use the weekend to do any isolation exercise like curls or whatever, if you absolutely must...I do, but it isn't because I need to.  The above stuff will do all the pushing and pulling you need, with heavy weights.

Slayerik:  If you are near failure going into your 4th set, it is because you are starting too agressively.  The plan I linked above will have you find your max 5 rep weight, but then have you work up to it over 4 weeks.  I'm not saying you necessarily have to go back all four weeks (I only went one or two when I started, but only because I had been lifting weights before that, so my muscles were more attuned), but if you don't work up to it in some way, you will likely hit a wall very early, not progress and give up in rage.  I wasn't shitting when I said that this program will have you setting a new record with every 5th set you perform of every exercise...if you are struggling on day one, you will almost definitely fail on day two.  Work your way into to it.  It might suck to have to feel like you're pussing out early on, but you'll make it up later. 

Well, it wasn't quite failure point then. I think I had my weight right about on because I already knew from working out the past two months how much I'd have to put on for sets of 5, and I nailed it first guess.  I went on to do three sets of 10 of seated dumbell curls to finish it out my Bi's. Next time I'll up the weight some but the dumbbells in my basement can be a pain to tweak weights on. Overall, I like this way better. I think I will see bigger gains from it. Thanks.

My friend was telling me about doing super sets for arms, where you basically overload workout your Bi's and Tri's the same workout and something about the huge blood flow there helps build. I don't plan on trying it, but he said it worked for him. Ever heard of it?

Ok so, I notice Bench Monday and Friday. Do you recommend 5 x 5 of just Flat bench on Monday, and then maybe 5 x 5 of Incline Dumbbells on friday? Or both in each workout. I guess I'm having a hard time gauging how much to do.

That is meant to be a good old fashioned flat barbell bench for both days.  I suppose you could sub out for dumbells...but to me, that prevents you from hitting your max weights.  I also generally dislike dumbells, so YMMV.  I do inclines and declines on the weekend.  To be honest, it's probably superflous and potentially counter-productive....I'm really already hitting all the muscle groups (I don't have a dip station though, so the declines and other things help make up for that).  I may just be tiring myself out needlessy, because I end up doing some form of bench exercise four days in a row.  Sometimes it's hard to practice what you preach, though.  

What I posted above is the minimum.  Do those three days just like that, and add in the dips, crunches and pull-ups however you like.  Set that in stone, and then don't fuck with it.  The weekend is when you can add in all the other shit that is ultimately just icing.  Not too much, though....when Monday comes around, you need to make sure you have enough energy to break through the next barrier.


Edit:  It just struck me...you are aware that the 5 sets you perform are with gradually increasing weights, yes?  That only the fifth set is the max weight?

I just completed by 10th week of lifting.

First 2 weeks were circuits.  Work out the whole body, get the muscles used to working again.
Next 7 weeks were heavy lifting.  3x10s to failure.

Usually I plateau at this point.  I've switched to 3x20's or until failure which is usually around the 60% mark of max weight.  I just my first week of this and I like the feeling of my body.  I'm going to do this for one more week and then go on a strength training 1 month regimen most likely.

I might do the 5x5's or the 3x8's.  Not sure.  But I want to max my weight during this time.  However I'm kind of leery about doing this right now.  I've still not lost on the weight I've packed on.  I've dropped from 238iish to around 223 or so.  I want to shed around 5-8 lbs of excess weight before I start putting on more muscle mass.

Throughout this though I usually do 20m cardio (stairmaster or elliptical) after each gym session, except on days that I do legs.  I usually also do one session a week where I do just cardio for 45-50 minutes.  Ever cardio session I'm keeping my heart rate to around 140-150.

I've seen the best results so far this time around.  In all my years of exercising and lifting I've never been more satisfied after 2 months.  I've bulked up before, and gotten big, but I've never seen the weight loss plus muscle build up.  I'm finally getting it right, and putting it together.  I've always known what to do, but now I'm finally doing it correctly.

Some comments:

1) 10 reps is too much if muscle gain is your objective.  Your workouts should be brief and very intense.  The only time I do 10 reps of anything is during warmup sets at about 60% max weight to get the blood flowing.  Other than that, I do 5-6 reps for each set.  Anything beyond 6 reps is endurance training.  How you workout is determined by your goals.

2) I try not to work a muscle group more than once a week.  Gains require adequate recovery.

3) Biceps and triceps get plenty of work during chest, shoulder, and back work.  When I isolate arms, I go hard on triceps and take it easy on my biceps.  I don't want to sacrifice the quality of my large muscle group workouts to have big biceps. 

Side note:  I gave up lifting in the gym this summer to do naturals and the outcome has been interesting.  In just 3 months, my body has changed quite a bit.  I've lost significant muscle weight and the type of strength has changed.  I'm not at all surprised by the results, but it has been interesting to watch. 

Hmmm. I value biceps more than I do legs. I should be more clear about my purpose. I want to look good when I take my shirt off. It's not so much about becoming a total package of power, just building size and muscle tone.

Chest, Shoulders, Biceps, Tris and Back are what matter to me most. Maybe you guys could try to help with with a regiment for that purpose? I'd like to use the 5 x 5 though, I'm pretty sold on that.

This is news to me! ;)

LOL, seriously, go to that site I linked and find the spreadsheet...even if you use different exercises, it will help calculate your lifts....you'll know the weight for every lift you make for the next several months.  Your first set is probably going to be something around 50% of your max weight, and increases by 10% or so for each subsequent set.

Also, if you were actually able to do your max weight for 4 whole sets...then you probably weren't really quite at your max weight.  Not that you need to try, but you should probably not even be able to do a second set at max weight.

Don't underestimate the squats - they are widely considered the single most important lift.  I understand (and agree with) your desire to focus on the upper body for appearances, but consider this:  Your muscles are all linked together.  Squats will improve your core strength to a serious degree.  Better core strength leads to better chest and shoulder strength.  Better chest and should strength leads to better arm strength.  The body wants to remain in harmony.  By having a well-rounded program, you are giving yourself the best chances to succeed.  The crazy Curl Guys at the gym trying to get the big arms?  They'll have better success if they're also doing squats.

The main reason people don't do squats is becuase squats fucking suck.  Think about that for a moment.  Why do they suck, exactly?

I guess I should really do some reading. I know jack and shit about anatomy.

For now im going to take your advice and do more of the shit I dont like, squats and rows. No pain, no gain baby.

God, yeah, definitely don't dismiss squats. There's a ton of reasons why. Hell, it's even said that the more your thighs get work, the more T level and GH potential, which in the end, means a better overall anabolic process for all muscles. So it's not just the importance of your core's tie to all parts of your body at stake. There's a chemical importance as well. You're gyping yourself out of these upper body goals by saying the legs aren't as important. But besides that, focusing on just upper body or some other part is just silly. You can only work out so much. It's just as important to rest to see any results. And during that resting period, you're free to work on other parts of your body. That's the fucking beauty of it, man. It only makes some sense to really target something if it's really unbalanced. And that usually isn't your arms or chest. It's something more subtle, like lower back areas. And if there are unbalances in the arms that need more focus, it's usually not in the chest or arms. It's in your shoulders.

Because many of us old folks have horrible, arthritic knees?

I have some gimp fingers personally :P

I love squats.



My goals are not necessarily muscle gain.  I have a pretty decent amount of muscle mass already.  My goals are slight muscle gain, strength, and weight loss.

I've never done 5x5's which I'll give a shot, but I've done Max Weight/Fatigue sets by doing Sets of 8,6,6 which is about the same.

I usually workout triceps with my back and shoulders, while working out my chest and biceps on other days.  Legs on another.

I also do each muscle group once a week and cardio on one other.

I'm assuming you were talking to me.

I'm a silly bitch, what can I say! ;)

How does that prevent you doing squats though?  :grin:

For the record I also fucking hate squats, I think it's the feeling of being squashed that's no fun; on the flip side, they do me so much good I can't afford to avoid them. Deadlift is the other 'must-have' lift for me. Also barbell rows, they can fuck right off. Rows are one of the few exercises where I feel dumbbells are the superior option, mainly since getting good form on barbell rows is such a pain in the arse, and you can go really heavy on dumbbell rows without too much issue.

lol.. they don't prevent me. i just... i don't know, i'm proclaiming solidarity with the gimp mofos out there  :grin: not to brag, but i've been pretty fortunate so far. never had any fucked up jobs that screwed my back or knees, or whatnot. i feel bad for people going through anything like that.

That's it exactly...the feeling of getting squashed.  Anyone who likes squats isn't squatting heavy enough (I like every set just fine until the last heavy one), or low enough.  Or is just plain crazy.  I like deadlifts waaaay better, but they are proven to be less effective.

And yeah, barbell rows can suck my cock.  So awkward.

I always cringe slightly when I see guys only going down to 90 degrees with their legs in a squat, as that's the angle that's perfect for blowing a knee out.

Deadlifts may not be as effective as squats, but I find they tie everything else together nicely; and for all the frustration that being squashed in a squat brings, the awesome feeling of lifting something fucking heavy is returned by the deadlift.

I fucking HATE deadlifts.

Curious what you guys do before a workout. How much energy do you have?

Depends on if I'm cutting or gaining.  During a cut, I have a lack of energy and have to power through on pure spite and horneriness.  If I'm in a bulk phase, the caloric excess usually means automatic energy (I'll occasionally throw down a protein bar in advance as well).  More than anything, though, I think you have to have your head in the right place.  Having the right mental state on a daily basis is the only way you get through this shit.

I'm not quite as serious as Cyrrex, and I have to work out after I get back from work during the week. In general though I have good energy; if I know I'm going to be lifiting in the evening I'll have a lunch of pasta or other carbs, and drink plenty of water during the afternoon. That way I'm usually right where I need to be when I hit the gym.

Man, don't tell him to do weighted squats unless he really knows what he's doing.  Most people don't even come close to proper squat form and are just begging for a knee injury.

Oh yeah and if you are working out at home, without a rack, you do not want to do back squats.  You will need to clean the bar and do front squats.

Thanks Arnold, that was my next question actually.

Good point indeed.  Don't fuck with back squats without a rack.

I've never done front squats myself, but it seems to me that it would be more difficult to lift your max weight that way.  If that's true, and I really don't know, then I'd almost rather do Deads instead.

Doing a few sets of squats with just the bar is a good warm up for any exercise session though. Get the legs working and then do deads. But yeah, don't do back squats without a power rack.

I'm guessing that doing some is better than none regardless, no?

To some extent, but consider what we've been talking about in this thread:  if you aren't lifting max weights at low reps, all you are training your muscles to do is to get good at lifting the weight you are currently lifting.  You need to be able to show your muscles their limits, otherwise they will have no reason to grow.  You will do more increasing of your endurance than actual muscle building.  The only reason a body ever grows big muscles is to lift heavy weights.  Large muscles are NOT, however, required for endurance.

All that said, if it is close to your max, then that's probably good enough.  When you feel you have your max weight, ask yourself this...are your legs about to fail, or are your arms about to fail from holding the weight up?  This is the same thing that often makes the Deads less beneficial....your grip will often fail before your legs and lower back.

I wonder how well the 5x5 philosophy would carry over to other forms of exercise like running or swimming, I suspect the cardio aspect restricts it from working as well there. 

Also, I suppose after a certain amount of time the amount you are able to increase your personal best will be less than the smallest increment of weight you are able to add to the bar.

Fake Edit: this entire post keeps giving me King of the Hill flashbacks to Bill getting his pump on.

If you do ass to grass squats, it doesn't take that much weight for it to feel really heavy.  I tried out some front squats on the cheapo bar I have at home and it wasn't too different feeling.  They keep you from leaning too far forward because if you do, you will start falling forward!

The most awkward part is going to be the grip.  A cross-arm grip is more comfortable, but not as stable and requires you to shift your arms after the clean.  The clean grip is more stable and requires no hand shifting.  However, the clean grip can be a bitch on the wrists for someone who is unaccustomed to it.

I stretch for a few minutes and then do a few light reps of each exercise to get the blood flowing to those muscle groups.  If I'm on a heavy cut phase, I may ride the stationary bike for 30 mins to get my body revved up.   Keep in mind that I'm in my 40's, so it takes a bit to get the blood flowing!

It's not wholly dissimilar to doing interval training really. Rather than jogging, do really intense sprints to build power and strength. It's not an amazing correlation though, since exercises such as running or swimming tend to de-emphasise power in favour of endurance in contrast to weight training which generally emphasizes power over endurance.

Sprinting (or rather anything power or speed focused) is fast twitch focused. Which will be the same muscle fibers you're trying to grow during a bulk up phase. Of course, you're not going to get any results close to a weight routine, but they could go hand in hand a bit.

Started my first (real) 5 x5 today, doing

5 x 5 - Bench - Ending up doing 6 sets as my max weight was slihtly off, ok cause the first set I could have called simply a warm up , it was too light.

5 x 5 - Front Squat - Tough on the wrists. Planned out weights almost exactly though, as my 5th in the last set was all I had. Might be walkin' funny tomorrow

5 x 5 - Barbell Rows - Didn't quite reach the right max 5 x 5, should be on it for next workout though.

Threw in 3 x 8 Tricep Kickbacks and budweisers for calorie intake :)

My overall impression is that it is a faster workout. Not sure if I'm going to keep with it, but I'm going to try it for a few weeks to see.

Cool...it's okay to adjust in the beginning.  You may even find you have to make big adjustments to things like your squats once you get used to them.  Make sure you add are increasing weight all the time.

You're not on the fence because it's a fast workout are you? You shouldn't work out more than 45-60 minutes, and on as intense a level as you can.

Anyhow, whatever you use (I don't do 5x5 either), just do something along the same lines. Progressive loading.

I guess I'm used to my full hour workouts. It's just different. Some of the early sets in these seem like they aren't doing shit, but I guess that's the point of progressing up. It seemed like before every set I was pushing it very hard (and with 5 x 5 only the last two seem like anything...well except for the squats those all sucked : ), but I'm going to give this a real go.

There are a few reasons for doing the early, easy sets:  First, simple warmup to get the blood moving.  Second, it adds to the overall tonnage of what you are lifting on a weekly basis, which despite everything else we've been harping on, still counts for something.  Third, it helps you work on good form.

The last two sets are what really do it for you.  It's been fairly well proven that your body doesn't need much more stimulus than that.  Much of what is effective does seem counter-intuitive, though, I'll give you that much.  You won't even be getting sore after the first week or so.

Exactly.  Listen to Cyrrex.  He's giving you some outstanding information.  It's all about breakdown and adaptation.  You are trying to force your body to do more than it's capable of.  To adapt, the body will build muscle to accomodate the work.  It's incredible what the human body will do to adapt to a new workload if you just give it what it needs.

Keep in mind that none of the work will payoff as well if you don't have a solid diet.  As one of my college trainers told me "Eat with a purpose". 

I'm 28, I hit a cardio machine for about 5 minutes or so.

Same here (cardio 5 mins, i mean. i'm not 28 ;) ).

I was more curious about your diets though. If you're supplementing with a pre workout drink. And I don't necessarily mean some prepackaged bullshit. I think even juice and sugar and some extra carbs is helpful beforehand (but probably should be avoided otherwise).

The most important thing you can do is to have some carbs immediately after your workout so that you're not burning as much muscle for calories.  As long as you have a healthy diet and adequate protein intake, that's about it.  I do drink protein shakes, but not for the hype.  I do it because my diet is primarily vegetarian and I get sick of beans and fish often. 

I don't remember where I first heard it, but I love this quote - "You can't outrun your fork."

That's where I'm educating myself a lot too. It's fascinating in general to hear good nutritional precepts too, and how everything plays out. Like Nebu said, it's incredible how the body works. [edit] And another thing, it doesn't take long to build an appetite up. There's a little trouble at first, but I guarantee you'll want to eat more as time goes by. I can't even function now if I accidentally miss even one meal.

The best medical advice I got about eating well was to make sure you setup a routine. The body stresses when it's not on a routine, which in turn makes your body create more fat than it normally would.

Another noob question. The way I have been working out I rotate through my sets.

Squats
Bench
Bentover rows

Squats
Bench
Bentover rows

and three more times like that.

Am I supposed to stick to one exercise and finish it out? I rotate through them to give some recovery time, but if that is incorrect thinking let me know.

I usually do one exercise then the other, but that's mainly to minimise the hassle of having to switch a load of weights between every set. I'm not sure if there is a benefit to doing your exercises in series rather than in parallel. They are all compound exercises too, so that works; if you were rotating through a mix of compound and isolation exercises then I would suggest that you do the compound exercises in series before the isolation exercises.

It's a good question though; I'm sure someone else has a good answer.

My immediate reaction to that is that by the time the fifth sets come around, you may be too tired to perform them effectively.  If you can handle that, and by that I mean that you are still able to hit your maximums and break through them, then go ahead.  I don't think I could.  There are programs out there that use this kind of approach, but I'm not sure this is a good one to be doing it with.

I am guessing you are responding to his technique and not mine?

No, sorry, was responding to yours.  Shoulda quoted.

Tips:

1) I work muscle groups each day that are found to be complimentary (i.e. Mon is Chest and Triceps, Thursday is Back and Biceps)

2) I work the larger of the muscles first.  On a chest/tricep day, I work chest then triceps. You'll get more growth from the larger muscle group.

3) Work the major group from different isolation points. Ex: When I work chest, I do incline, flat, decline, and flys. 

4) I do 5x5 for each exercise.  Set 1 will be declines.  I do 5 reps at low weight for form and a warmup.  Then I do an 5 reps at 80% effort.  The last 3 sets of 5 reps are at max weight. 

5) Add at least a little weight to your max every week.  This is how you get growth. 

Hope that helps.

Tweaked my delt a little on an early set.

I really need to stretch better.

Fought through it though and I am watching my bar starting to bend a bit from the weights. I like that :)

My other problem is front squats. I have to have a spotter now so I don't fall forward.

The free weight room at my university is closed until the end of next week, so I'm almost finished with my "experiment".  I have to say that I like the type of build I get doing just natural exercises, but am really looking forward to getting back in the weight room.  I just can't get used to the type of fatigue I feel from doing naturals.  I never feel like I worked out hard enough... I just feel tired.  I'm also getting sick of logging so many road miles running and will look forward to that ending as well.  Between the naturals, cardio, and 1500 calorie diet, I'm REALLY looking forward to a good old-fashioned, pain-filled bulk phase. 

So what is the 5x5 workout for abs, still 1 long set to failure?  I need to ditch my gut and am not interested in replacing it with a bigger gut made of muscles.

If you want to ditch your gut you want to be jogging or cycling; you need to get your body burning fat. You probably also want to re-evaluate your diet. 5x5 is an exercise system aimed at building strength and mass in large muscle groups, it wouldn't really apply to abs. Do you do any exercise at all? If not, start small, aim for 20-30 minutes of exercise that's getting you into a sweat twice a week, and build from there. Don't go full retard and aim for some 1.5 hour, 6 day a week system which will crush you and kill your motivation to exercise.

I do inclines with a 25 lb plate on top of my head doing a left, center, right to catch the obliques.  My second exercise is to do vertical knee raises to failure or extending the legs for more pain.  Third set I use a crunch machine on high weight for 10-12 reps.  

To add to K9's comments, the best way to get a gut is to change your diet.  Great abs come more from diet than exercise.  Working the abs just increases their size to make them more visible.  Lots of exercises work your core, so many people don't work abs much at all.  I only work abs twice a week myself. 

6 weeks ago I started swimming 1200 yards 5 days a week and have modified my diet to include more fruit and less food.  Most of my visible excess weight is between my ribs and hips, I was looking to supplement my swim with something that targets those areas.

Unfortunately, you cannot target fat burn - despite what the marketers claim.  The body will do what it wants with the fat.  Only thing you can do is work on your overall body fat percentage.  Get that down and that area between the ribs and hips will ultimately go down as well.

I have a similar problem, in that in order for me to get that middle section down to where I want it to be, I have to lose more body fat than I really want to...and it starts to have a negative impact on my overall appearance.  I am going to try and combat this by just putting on more muscle overall and see if that helps.

I wish I could put in a pool, I've got the room on my double lot for a nice sized one. Hard to justify for two months a year, though. So the plan is for a heated indoor pool  :why_so_serious: In 2040 when I can afford it. Too bad I'll be 70.

Can't get the fiancee motivated to get out hiking this year, it's really bumming me out, she just wants to take naps all the time. So I'll probably have to start working out to burn some calories, goddammit. I hate working out, I'd rather burn calories naturally, hiking or climbing or building something.

Again, excellent point.  Each person stores their fat differently according to their genetics.  The key to losing belly fat is to lower your total fat % as Cyrrex points out.  That or liposuction!

Another myth that you see in the media is that you can target the loss of fat only.  When cutting fat you will also cannibalize muscle.  The goal is to maximize fat losses while minimizing muscle losses.  At best, you can limit muscle loss to about 20%. 

I could be full of shit, but doesn't getting fat at all develop fat cells where they used to not be? Err, hope that's understood. I just woke up.  :grin: I mean, I got overweight once, but I think it takes more effort now to get a flatter stomach. I fluctuate around 12 %, and I have a barely visible "2 pack" at best. I think my body weight/fat stores were distributed differently when I was younger, and that there might have been more definition at the same fat percentage. Or maybe this is the full outcome of my genetics too. ???

Well I definately did some damage to my body:

Step 1 - Dropped a ton of weight (probably more than is healthy)
Step 2 - EQ coma for 3-4 years and lost all muscle tone.
Step 3 - End of the EQ coma invested heavily BBQ, Beer.
Step 4 - Quit smoking and started eating 1200 cal lunches in addition to a heavy dinner and constant snacking.
Setp 5 - Messed my feet up pretty bad (plantar fasciitis) probably due to the excess 70 lbs I was carrying around.

Before all of that I used to be pretty fit, now as I approach 40 I have decided that it might be fun to not walk around like a 65 year old crippled fat man.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall reading that the number of fat cells your body develops is largely determined by during the time of your great growth spurts in your teenage years, which is one reason that some people have lifelong battles with this sort of thing, while others can simply put in on and melt it right back off.  Genetics has some part to play in this, but your behavior also appears to determine this to a large degree.  All those obese kids you see running around are in for a struggle for all their lives, as they are simply building more fat cells than the rest of us.  As you get fatter, those cells are simply expanding as the deposits are stored.  Burning the fat simply eats into those deposits stored in the existing cells.

I'll bet Nebu can confirm or deny.

As to the rest of it, the body surely changes with time.  No doubt about that one.  I used to have smaller love handles at a higher BF percentages (not that they're huge now, but they're certainly still there).

I'm going to have to figure something out for squats, cause these Front squads keep tweaking my shoulder. It's awkward trying to support all that weight and it is not working for me. Should I deadlift as a substitute? Im not getting a gym membership, so I have to deal with what I got.

Overall I like the 5 x 5 routine. I choose to do isolation afterwards, like shrugs or curls after my main workout. I feel I'm missing some of the iso stuff I was doing before, I guess it's just up to me how hard I want to workout.

If you don't have a power rack I would be inclined to leave the squats for safety's sake. Deadlifts are probably your best and safest alternative.

You can always get a leverage bench as well.

I agree.  Squats make me nervous even with the rack.  Do the deads instead, but try to make sure you use as much leg as possible (there is a tendency to cheat with your lower back more than you should).  You will not get the same workout as you do with the squats, but the chance of injury is far less.

Another thing about the deads is that your grip strength will largely determine how much weight you can manage.  I found that I could deadlift about the same as I could squat in the beginning, but that went up dramatically as my grip got better.  In other words, don't be afraid to attempt large leaps after a couple weeks.

I hate to admit it, but I'm not sure.  I've done some reading about cell size and brown fat cells, but I really don't have a definitive answer.  This is something I need to do some more reading on and get back to you all. 

Critique:

(http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/images/dumbbell_exercises_calf_raise.gif)

Looks like he's getting a workout on his eyebrows too.

It's a compound lift.

I'm just not entirely sure exactly what bits he's exercising. 

I hope that isn't a real exercise.  People are amazingly stupid and lazy.

I've seen it used at the gym.  Its actually not a bad exercise, though I've seen it mainly used for women.  Sitting on the ball works your abdomen as you need to keep clenching your muscles for balance, while the lifting motion works your calves pretty effectively.  So it works several muscles at the same time, and isn't a bad exercise to do a lot of reps with.

When you use a machine that lets you put even more weight on, instead of just using free weights, its actually a pretty damn hard exercise.  Works my calves better than anything else I've found (though again this is on a machine where I can stack weights, instead of sitting on the ball, so its not targeting the abdomen either).

I don't doubt that machine weights can be good for calf building, that wasn't the point.  Sitting on a stupid ball simply cannot be the most effective way to exercise either the calves or the abdomen (I doubt it is doing anything significant for the abdomen).  Simply standing up and doing calf lifts with your own body weight would likely be better for calves.  Doing crunches is obviously better for your abs.

People invent shit like this because it's easier.  The reason it is easier is because it isn't really working your muscles.  Women are always falling prey to that sort of crap.

I sometimes use the balls for doing crunches, with my feet hooked under something static and my legs over the ball. For most other things they just seem gimmicky and slightly unsafe.

On the other hand, the domes are pretty nifty in my opinion. Doing any exercise on those has an added level of challenge and benefit.

Yeah, I never really use the ball/domes, but I will say doing crunches on either of them has an effect.  Trying to maintain your balance while doing crunchs on top of the big rubber ball beats the hell out of my abs when I try it.

The 5 x 5 philosophy could work very well with running, particularly, as Stray indicated, with sprinting. The same theory can be applied to longer distance training too but probably more in the form of fartlek training (so run at 50% max speed for a minute, 60% max speed for a minute, 70% max, 80% max, 90% max and repeat 5 times during a run).

Max speed, in this case, is what you make it. You're unlikely to be aiming to do a max 10m/s if you're training for a marathon but you will have a target race speed.


You should learn more about why the "stupid ball" is so commonly used before slating it.  Just sitting on a ball isn't going to work out your abdominals but doing crunches on a ball can work your abs harder than just doing them prone.  This is because your body is having to work to stabilize itself while doing the other exercises so your obliques get worked as do your extensors.  Doing exercises like jacknifes or inverse-Vs (may be known as something else) are also fucking murder on your abs as well as working other parts of your body at the same time.  There are plenty of sports injury professionals and sports coaches who recommend their use and they're pretty damned good both for rehabilitation and conditioning as well as strength building.

Apparently no one has heard of a seated-calf-raise?   That's exactly what that exercise is, and it does usually work the most neglected muscle group of the body.

Anyhow, I think I mentioned this before, if your having any specific issues, I'm currently a certified personal trainer, and I invest quite a bit of time into consistent research on the subject, as well a practicing as a fitness coach at a local Crossfit gym.  :awesome_for_real:

If you had any specific questions, I could most certainly take a stab at them.

Unless you have fairly weak calves, how could you ever meet the same load on a seated calf raise as a standing calf raise? Doing them standing I can comfortably do calf raises with ~90kg or more. Sitting with a pair of 40 kilo dumbbells in your lap just seems awkward and uncomfortable.

There are machines in the gym I use that replicate this and I find it to be very effective at isolating the gastrocnemius.  I can do standing calf raises with a ton of weight, but 1 plate a side (90 total pounds) will kill me after 20 reps on a seated machine.  You should try it before you knock it. 

Yeah, exactly.  I do seated calf raises because its so much harder, and I can definitely feel it after I work out.  I can do a crap ton of weight on standing calf raises and not really feel like I accomplished much afterwards.

I'm not sure we have a machine that does that at my gym, or are you adapting a seated leg press? We have one that lets you press yourself up an incline, but we don't have one that lets you press a weight away from yourself sadly.

Either way, point noted, I'll give these a go tomorrow when I do my legs.

There is a specific machine for seated calf raises that uses plates.  It has a pad that goes over the tops of your thighs while seated.  The thing is a beast, but it hurts so good.

Do you reckon you could adapt the load to a gym-ball though?

I guess I could stack 25kg plates across my lap while seated. I'm going to get some funny looks though :grin:

I guess it depends what your after, the stability ball is a good tool, but I question the effectiveness of the exercise, I tend to use stability balls for a variety of exercises, but calf raises aren't one of them.

I think you might be a little confused on the calf exercises in general, if you are looking to strengthen the calf muscles there are two parts to muscle, the soleus and gastrocemius, the seated calf raise works the soleus, where as the standing calf raise works the gastrocemius. 

To be honest, the only reason I question the stability ball with the exercise because the calf muscle is usually worked in a very short ROM already, and due to the fact you are you are unstable of a stability ball, I doubt you'd be able to press the same amount through a full ROM.... I'd rather stand up on stable surface that has an edge, and work the calf muscle through a further range of motion, but that's just my 2 cents.

Unfortunately the fitness industry is convoluted with fancy exercises - but one piece of advice I could give you is just keep it simple, and follow the use/loose it principle, if you aren't finding its working for you, loose it, if its working for you keep it.   Good luck!

Does anyone have any views on skipping as either a warm up, or exercise in it's own right?

Wait...skipping as in Skip To My Loo?  Like with bubble gum and pony tails?

On leg days, I warmup my quads by doing high knee raises and low weight dumbell lunges.  For calves, I'll jump rope for a few minutes to get the heartrate up. 

It could be both, pending on what style of skipping your doing and how vigorous you are turning.

See this article for more information and an informative video:  http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/jumprope2.htm

I tend to prefer using speed ropes as mentioned due to the fact the weighted ropes will never turn as fast.