f13.net

12-14-04
WorldofWar.net (http://www.worldofwar.net/articles/fansitechat-14-12-04)

The Good:


The Obvious:


The Vague:


The Eternally Delayed:


The Reasons I'm canceling the game:


Fuck high level raid content introduced in the first 3-6 months.



I'm no carebear, but I hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth.

Goddamn idiots.

Did they say specifically it's a "raid" instance?  Well, depending on when their patch is, I could be 40 by that time (almost 37 ATM).  But Desolace? Ugg, it's going to be fucking centaurs.  Also 40-49 seems like a rather large level range for an instance, but then again, do they mean when the content is yellow to green or orange to green?  Bleh, specifics would be nice.

40 really isn't that high of a level for the next patch. I've been running into quite a few 35+ nowadays.  It seems half the playerbase is 30+.

As for the rest:

Yay. More auction house + linked = GOOD.  

Yay, I guess.  I just want a Santa hat and maybe a Christmas Poo for a pet.

Ditto. Map functionality, I guess that's good.

Blah. Hurry up with the damn battlegrounds.

So what, I don't play on a PVP server.

You left off the ".php" at the end of your link. I fixed it in the quoted one above.


Did you miss this part?:




I liked this PvP-related quote:

A level 40 instance is almost certainly not raid content. There's very little chance of having enough people, even in a large guild, within the level range. It will be another 5 group instance. There are also other things in desolace, including demons, but I was spending my time running from it while I traversed the whole damn zone to learn cookery.

... no wonder the horde food is so basic. You have to be level ~30 before you can become a decent chef.

The level ranges they give for instances seem to frequently be the level of the mobs within. The instances I've done so far have been very good, probably the best dungeons in any MMORPG, but as expected content is being consumed at a staggering rate and blizzard seem every bit as slow to fix and extend as some here commented.  

Their wimp out on the honor system is perplexing. They have to realize a grief friendly environment is going to cause a migration away from the many PvP servers they have.

I think the honor system issues amount to the promised something without thinking about how they could deliver it, and then couldn't figure it out. They basically come out and say as much. "We're dumping it because it doesn't work."

The sad part is, the spent earlier time talking about how their PvP would be different and then identifying problems - then replicated those problems.

They have corpse camping, graveyard corpse camping, spells that make the players stop playing the game (NEVER DO THIS), etc. What I wonder is if they are going to make some lesser obvious fixes, like something to prevent corpse camping.

How about, when you come back to life you are invulnerable to PvP for 30 seconds unless you attack someone or heal/buff/help someone involved in PvP. Obvious solution, they already do something similar on PvE servers so the code is there. (as far as how you can go from not involved to involved in PvP) Or just increase the corpse retrieval distance if you were killed by another player.

The word is about, there's something evolving,
Whatever may come, the world keeps revolving.
They say the next big thing is here,
That the revolution's near,
But to me it seems quite clear
That it's all just a little bit of history repeating.

Bruce

Much as game designers probably hate the idea of hard-coded level protection, because of whatever interference/monkey wrench it tosses in their concept of a seamless virtual world...they'll have to accept the realities of the 'applied' and the 'theoretical.'

I think the combination of the questing system and PvP makes WoW fun.  The quests/zones tend to create run-ins between opposing sides of similar levels.  Now the combat system has some flexibility +/- 10 levels from my experience, but several bored level 60's camping a level 20-30 zone like Hillsbrad/Ashenvale is cheese.

It's all about new player sustainability.

The problem with an effective honour system is that it would be reverse griefable. If you get attacked by a bunch of low-levels you either die or cop a penalty. That would suck major ass.

Whereas I would hesitate to describe an 'honor system' that didn't allow you to defend yourself as 'effective'.

Alkiera

So a level 10 dood attacks you while his grouped level 60 buddies stealth behind ya. If you defend yourself, could they kill you without a penalty then?


-- Z.
bad SWG GTEF flashbacks for the win

This makes no sense.  Even if it is raid content, WTF is the problem?  We knew that WoW had a raiding endgame.  You're mad that they finished an encounter and are putting it in?  Or are you mad that some people are already 40+?

I'm mad because there are other things that need to be fixed.



I'll believe that when I see it. Blizzard has all but convinced me that they are completely incapable of properly running an MMOG. Sure, they core game is in and working. Sure, that's a step up from everyone else. Unfortunately, every single other aspect of their business from customer support to update delivery is worse than the worst you can think of - yes, even Horizons had better customer support (and a better patching process). For all of it's pluses, World of Warcraft has been a ridiculous clusterfuck in every other area.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you hated WoW the moment it was announced.  Only EQ2's rampant suck has forced you to actually install WoW in a desperate search for reasons to hate.  

It makes you look silly.

(http://csserver.evansville.edu/~dk31/phitau_photos/original/silly%20dj.jpg)

I'm failing to see where you are having major "OMG I'M QU1TTING TEH GAME!!1" moments. CS was lacking? What like your elf didn't get an uber drop, or the company isn't accepting your credit card? Those are two different things, one is bitchy the other legit. I've had zero problems with billing or account related issues. I've had zero problems with queues having never seen one. I've had a few issues with servers being down for about an hour, nothing huge. Most of the things you seem pissed about are "problems" you've jaded yourself against without much backup.

They put in a lvl 40 dungeon? Oh noes! I'm lvl 30 now. Hell I know a bunch of the lvl 40s in the guild. They may not even notice this is in by the time it goes live because they are past the requirements. Hardly high level content in my book considering you could get a toon to 20 in a week of casual play.

I have no idea what game you are playing. This has been the best experience I have had in any MMOG and I have played almost every one. To each his own I guess.

Actually, I enjoyed the hell out of the game for 2-3 weeks there. Then it became every other game, but with a shorter treadmill. The shiny doesn't work on me anymore.

Are we back to the 'too much cake' senario again? ;)

I'm only level 23 on my main guy, and I'm still having fun. Have you powergamed yourself out?

I have certainly run into some annoying things (ie: Icecrown crashing the last two nights for about an hour) but nothing that's blatantly wrong (ie: working as intended: foobar'ed).

Granted, it would be nice if Battlegrounds were in or Rogues were invincible and they gave us pie every Sunday night, but I'm still learning how to play my Rogue to maximum effect and enjoy doing the quests with my friends.

Other than the few minor issues, that, (granted) do need to be fixed, WoW has a very solid underlying game - unlike some other games (*cough*SWG*cough*). If the worst we see is superficial issues and not blatant the whole system is broken issues I say Blizzard is doing a good job.

While WoW may not be as crappy as SW:G, it's certainly proof that the EQ formula (at least to me) is just ass. My rogue is only level 21. I powergamed longer and harder in almost every other MMOG. It's mostly that WoW just doesn't give me a reason to play it over the slew of better console and PC games that came out this season.

All WoW has shown me is that a developer can release a stable game at launch. Which is something I saw with City of Heroes back in February. Which was, by far, the more fun of the two.

Meh, I knew that "effective" was a poor word to use but was too lazy to expand on it. My bad. I meant effective in that it acts as an effective deterrant to killing lowbies, not that it is perfect in every way.

No matter how long I live, I do not ever think I will stop ignoring the "a stich in time saves nine" philosophy. Nor will it ever stop biting me in the ass. Oh well.

Which is a matter of personal opinion...  

I don't see a single concrete thing in CoH's gameplay that gives it a fun++ advantage over WoW.  Except tights, I'll give you that.

On the base level of fun, I think CoH had a lot more to offer. Unfortunately, depth was not it's strong suit.

CoH was more fun to me than WoW. I'm currently playing WoW because it is teh newz shiney. I still think CoH had much better gameplay, including: 1) better NPC AI, 2) an actual Z-Axis that has an effect on gameplay (which is also part of the reason for #1), 3) much better character customization, 4) more early "power perception" of your character than in WoW.

WoW does have a faster treadmill, though, and a little bit better quest presentation. However, it could greatly benefit from CoH's mission system, particularly in the area of rewarding all players in a group for helping other players on their quests. And WoW could benefit from CoH's much better update system, including community outreach, non-buggy patches and regular content updates.

I agree.  WoW > CoH.

No issues for me and still having lots of fun at lvl 33.

Shiny is the only thing that works for me anymore.

Ah.  Well, please bear with the rest of us while we attempt to reach your level of gaming experience and wisdom.  Of course by then you will have skyrocketed even further into the stratosphere of computer gaming, instilling a perpetual sense of awe in the rest of us as we bask in your presense. You will lord over the gaming subculture as the Sun does over our Earth.

It seems like people like CoH just because it makes them feel powerful, not because there is anything actually interesting in the gameplay.  The classes in WoW are so much more interesting to me than the boring CoH stuff.

And the NPC AI was good in CoH?  We must have played different games.  WoW is the same old done well, CoH was much less of the same old (just combat and travel) done either barely as well or very cool in the case of travel.  I would personally rank CoH as the worst MMORPG I've ever played, which includes DAoC, EQ, SB, and now WoW.  I think its just because I like substance over style, and don't just say it like some people here.  Playing as a super hero does not make me one bit excited in and of itself.  To me though, flying and grinding using superpowers instead of spells (whatever) does not make up a fun game.  And thats all CoH had.

CoH was 90% shiny, 10% Z axis.  And you say the shiny doesn't work on you anymore.  Bullshit.

WoW was great for a while, but I'm in my 30's (omgcatass) and everything is still the same old.  I'd like to be in the battlegrounds, or getting xp for PvP, or something.  I'll just take a break for a while and see what the next patch brings, even though one of the community managers said that battlegrounds will not be in it.


Oh, but the reason I won't be cancelling the game:



High level...raid content....must contain laughter....

More instances are a good thing.  Instances are the best part of the game.    By the time the next patch comes out half of WoW's playerbase will be probably be close to 40+, considering right now half of it is 31+.  And it has nothing to do with raiding.  

What else exactly do you think the content team should be working on?  Of course not content!  They should be fixing WoW's customer support!  WoW doesn't have 300k subs above level 30 right now, of course not.  And even if they did, certainly they should all be totally ignored.

I'm still only level 17 in WoW. I feel so weak (Granted, I haven't had the opportunity to play this past week and a half). On the upside, I got my shiny new copies of Modo, Cinema4D and MotionBuilder and I've used my spare time to start working on a neat project involving a night elf chick. ;)

Decent notes from the dev team. They will need to pump out content faster though and I fear that they may increase the treadmill yet to keep people from leveling so fast. This will, of course, hurt me the most. Well, not really any more. I've grown numb to it because it has happened so much in the past. WoW is certainly a well done game. I'm actually itching to log in and do some fishing of all things (to complete a quest) and check out some new zones (and hopefully not die). Alas, I must wait until Friday. Damnable responsibilities!

Please never link that here, I get enough NE stupidity when I log into the game.

I'm only 17 and I don't have any excuses like not playing for a week straight.

Fact is, WoW doesn't make me feel like I have to grind to keep up, and I'm having fun without noticing levels that much.  To me, that's worth the monthly fee.

I personally hope I never attain the jaded Zen state that doesn't allow me to enjoy a stable and fun game because the dev notes weren't to my liking.

I was joking... well, sort of. I'm currently modeling the night elf and once complete will be doing some neat things with the animation in MotionBuilder. Nothing crude or stupid. This is a portfolio/demo reel project.

Thank God. After seeing all the female night elf "fan art" I wanted to gouge out my eyes. And no, don't ask me why I thought clicking that link was a good idea.

Are you roleplaying?

The crew I run with is 28-mid-teens right now, there are eight of us.  My main is Webster the Troll Warrior who is now 26th level.  No feeling of grind yet, but then we are all running quests, sharing them, taking apart and getting taken apart by the random Alliance group we stumble upon.  Right now Shadowfang Keep is probably the coolest damn place we stumbled into... just magic.

So far I am having a blast and have not had a stumble yet with issues.

Woot!

Trolling.

I think that about sums up what you have said in this thread. The majority of people in this forum are enjoying the hell out of the game. OMG they are putting in more *mid* level content, im quitting. Errr.. must have missed some thing.

I agree with Mezoic, you hated WoW before you played it. Big supprise your are so gungho against it now. The fact you even enjoyed it a little bit is very supprising to me.

Also, I think a lot of your gripes are baised on what you *think* will happen. I play on a PVP server, and its great. So I have been killed by a high level a few times. That set me back maybe a totla of 15 minutes (for all the times I have been killed in pvp). But on the other hand, a group of level 40+ guys (4 of them) attacked me while I was questing last night. This led to an impromptu group of horde joing up to drive them off. It was very satisfying to have 8 lvl 25-35s kill them all using superior skill.

Somewhat akin to the perception discussion, my friend is playing a rogue and it is driving him nuts that he keeps getting detected while stealthed. He thinks he should be invisible all the time, until he attacks someone. I tried to explain to him that he is not invisible, just hiding. The closer you are to someone the easier it is for them to spot you. He doesn't get it and it makes him hate the game. He expects to be invisible all the time. I wouldn't be suprised if he quits because the game does not behave as he thinks it should.

Hehehe.

Count me in the camp thoroughly enjoying WoW - the main problem I have with it is knowing when to shut off the PC and give my eyes a rest and spend some time with the family. I have different characters, leveled to 8, 10, 14, and 25. Good times.

They will not (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=346841) be in next patch, whenever that patch may be.

I think what may settle it for me on the CoH vs WoW question is that WoW crashes literally every thirty seconds on me. Weirdest thing. Same computer plays CoH all day long. Tried different video drivers, different sound card drivers, different video and sound settings from all the way up to all the way down, to no apparent use. It'll crash when all I'm doing is standing around.

I'm on Earthen Ring, but don't want to announce a char name until I know I'll be staying around.

Considering the database lag/mail lag, I don't really find this that disturbing. Frankly, having the AH in different cities is a great idea, but not gamebreaking for me atm. I'd rather have them get the issue right and fully connected other than releasing it and causing another laggy meltdown on patch day. Of course, that will probably happen either way, but I like to be hopeful that its accuracy over speed and not just laziness.

I don't know what kind of error you're getting, but if it's some kind of memory violation (error #132, I think it was), I had the same problem on release.  There's a stickied thread about it on the official tech support forum that isn't locked but doesn't seem like it can be replied to anymore.  Anyways, the issue is that WoW, for whatever reason, runs really hot, to the point where my computer would overheat and crash after I played between 15 and 60 minutes, no matter what I was doing.  But I never have overheating problems with it while I'm doing anything else (including playing COH).  I fixed the issue by underclocking my processor, but that was a pretty annoying solution.  Stable game, my ass.

Anyways, I found WoW's quests to be kinda fun for like the first 20 levels or so.  At this point (level 46), it does feel very treadmillish.  It doesn't help that a zone like Feralas or Dustwallow Marsh has maybe 1/10th the amount of quests that The Barrens has.  So I show up at the zone, explore it, do the 5-6 quests I can do solo, get about a level of exp, and then it's off to find another zone.  Plus, I hate collection quests where the drop rate is low.  Oh, and underwater quests.  Swim around, find elven gem, get attacked by mermaid guy, try to surface because I'm running out of air, get dazed, get slowed by ice spell, get netted and be completely unable to move, drown 5 feet from surface.  Repeat for 12 gems.  I've vowed to never do another underwater quest ever again.  

It also probably hasn't helped that I've played this game much more non-casually than I did COH.  But on PVP it's gank or be ganked, and I didn't want to be the level 25 guy getting corpse camped by level 60s in Hillsbrad a month after release, so I've grinded.

I'm starting to feel the grind myself. Oh I have plenty of quests. But I'm starting to run into many alliance players, and either they won't flag themselves, or I'm in no position to flag myself to attack them because they are ?? level and I'm not. I'm 23 and may be starting to run out of steam.

Sounds like you need to reroll on a PvP server, Haem.  Of course, how far you get once you hit 20 and need to quest in contested zones is another question.

This is about where I got with the game in beta before I started to feel much like I did in CoH.  The shiny has worn off and all that remains is a clear view of the community and the treadmill ahead.  The type of fun really didn't change, only the look of it and an increase in the amount of time it took to reach new goals.

I think the self sufficiency that you have until level 20 is great for fun, but really comes at the cost of retention.  By being able to do everything on your own, there's no incentive to build social networks.  Perhaps this is a holdover from my MUD days, but the main reason I log on to mmogs is to have fun with friends.  The game itself is less important if only to act as a vehicle for some shared entertainment experience.  In my opinion, games like CoH and WoW have moved away from the more social predecessors of the past.  They are much better games from a purely entertainment standpoint, but much worse from a community standpoint.  Maybe I just come from a generation where gaming was more of a social event than anything else.

In any event, I find it funny that I have recommended WoW and CoH to so many people without being able to truely enjoy the games myself.  I guess I have a deep appreciation for the advancements they are making in the genre without being convinced that they are the advancements I would have preferred.

I guess it would have to be a pretty common consensus that the best way to enjoy WoW is taking your time.  I and my regular group are squarely in the middle of the pack with levels.  Higher level gankers are usually not a problem for us(mostly we shank them or avoid them thanks to having a hunter as our driver).  Our nightly gaming sessions is all questing/pvp, and I feel that as we level up, we're  picking up new pvp tactics and honing our skills along the way.  Had I played on a pve server and did nothing but grind to 60, I would of already quit.

No wonder your feeling a grind, your level 46. I am lvl 31 and I have invested quite a bit of time. You must be investing at least 5-7 hours a day. Well, if your horde you are.

Yeah, some of the higher level zones dont have as many quests as the barrens (oh, you are horde). But there are more of them. Tanaris, Feralis, Azshara, Felwood, STV, Swamp of Sorrow, Dustwallow Marsh, Hinterlands, Ungoro Crater, Badlands. All those zones should have quests for your level. Not to mention Zul'Ferrak, Uldaman, and soon the Temple for instances.

Take a few days off, and you wont get burned out. You know you dont HAVE to play every day right?

Honestly, this is why the rest system is a godsend to the higher levels. In the lower ranks, it's almost stupid because you can make up a night's rest in about three kills. However, resting becomes integral as you get 40+ to stay ahead of the game I think. I would recommend that if you feel the grind at the higher level just roll an alt for a while. Get it to 20 or something for about 5 days. Use it as a leatherworking alt. Then, come back to your main. It will have a full rested level on it by the time you return, meaning you can xp away with ease, not to mention the quest rewards that only increase it.

Ah what a big world we live in.  I'm already disenchanted with WoW because I've already hit the point where I must group for most quests.

But then to me video games are something I do when I'm bored and usually that means solo.  I prefer RL for social activities - it's the non-verbal cues from actually being around people that satisfy my social itches. YMMV.

Looks like you missed the point... easy to do when you single out a sentence for comment.  

My statement was that I am of a generation where we got together to play games. The games actually acted as a centerpiece for social interaction (ever wonder why they were called "Parlor Games"?).  I enjoy online gaming for similar reasons.  I have a very active social life, but it is also quite limited by the small town that I live in and the limited circle of social contacts.  I enjoy online gaming as it gives me the opportunity to share an experience with people I would otherwise have no contact with.   So, FOR ME there is less of a drive to get online and play a game where there is little incentive to interact with others.  

As for being bored... I've never had a problem with that.  I always have far too many things to do to ever be bored.

Or for crying out loud... I was contrasting playstyles.  I'm sure you're a wonderful human being, gentle to furry creatures and beloved by children everywhere.

Yeah, I'm aware that the way I've chosen to play has probably contributed to burning out on the PVE.  I aluded to as much in the third paragraph of my previous post.   But it's take my time and savor the PVE, or catass and remain somewhat competitive in PVP, and between those choices PVP wins.  

Wanting to enjoy the content while burning through it may be unrealistic, I don't know.  I have still liked the instances that I've gone to, but I can't spend all my time in them because sometimes there's just not going to be a group for it.  I do think more quests per each mid-high zone would help a lot though.  Yes, there are a lot more zones that I can go to than when I was back in my teens, but I don't like having to go to a new zone almost every single level (unless I just sit and grind), which is how it's working out right now.  That's just too much running around, and feels like a time sink.

I like having different zones that I can quest in at any given time. Right now I'm going between Ashenvale, Redridge Mountains, and Duskwood just depending on my mood, it adds variety. The only bad thing is the 20 quest limit gets a little restrictive, but that's just a nitpick.

I seriously wouldn't mind the 20 quest limit if it didn't include elite quests. I think there should be a seperate tab for those alone that doesn't count in your total 20.

Totally agree there.  The elite quests can take a long time to accomplish so they should be separate.  I'm constantly fighting the cap as it stands.

I too travel zones quite often to line up the best fit of quests for my lvl and what I want to accomplish.  I'm quite pleased with the game and have not seen my enthusiasm for the game diminish at all.

Level 34 currently.

I really doubt that desolace dungeon will be anything involving centaurs, since there's already an entire centaur town full of level 40+ elites. Plus, the banished cave-dwelling centaurs are in 1k needles, not Desolace.

Also, it's not raid content, and 40+ instances need A TON of help. They are pretty bad.

The lower level instances have story to them. Lots of quests linked to them. Then out of left and right field respectively, you're sent into a mine to kill ... i'm not even sure what they are. Caveman Mr. Potatoheads. Then you're sent to the temple, at the upper 40s to kill... Nah I won't spoil it.

Also you can spend some time fighting the underwater-breathing, mutant, giant dwarves in Feralas, if you don't feel like going to an instance.

I have witnessed about two dozen scorned level 25s taking down 3 level 60 players.

It's bliss.

"Newbie griefing" isn't as bad as you armchair queers are making it out to be.

edit: also, don't let the shiny get out of your sights. I'm currently after this particular one, because i want to beat people up with a pint glass. (http://www.thottbot.com/index.cgi?i=9436)

Mug O' Hurt, haha, great!

When I played UO, my account was typically paid and active only three out of every four months.  I didn't dislike the game, I'd just get a bit tired of it at times.  You know, you don't have to play forty hours a week like clockwork.  Take a week off and do something else with your spare time.  Your character will be there.