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Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 03:33:31 AM What's up with the hate that's been tossed at these people (http://www.fragdolls.com)? They are gamers. Paid and hot. But still gamers. If the hate is a result of total jealousy, that's one thing. But that's not the vibe I'm getting. My stance?
(http://www.fragdolls.com/ss/brookelyn_thumb2.gif) (http://www.fragdolls.com/ss/brookelyn2.jpg) + (http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2003/all/boxshots2/914819.jpg) = Win. Some of you may need (http://womens.luuonline.com/files/womens/roofies.jpg). F13 does not endorse using roofies to get a fragdoll. Or any girl for that matter. YMMV as Bloodlines tends to crash. That's where we suggest you make your "move." Said "move" should not be recommending a rousing session of Ribbit King or Links 2004. Pic of girl links to full size. This is the kind of shit I post at 6:15am. Don't be surprised if I lock it in 12 hours. Now that I think about it, hasn't UBISoft gotten enough recognition this week with the shill wandering around our forum. Oh, and girl not necessary to enjoy bloodlines. But who knows. It might make her hot. Unless UBI no likey Troika. Bloodlines > Halo 2. Four and a half million people may disagree with me. But they're wrong. To sum up, Bloodlines is the best game from this past November. Not Halo 2. K? Anyway, I'd like your opinions on the whole thing. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Trippy on December 08, 2004, 03:38:18 AM Where's the hate coming from?
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 03:47:29 AM I didn't think much of it when I saw the Corp thread. But then I saw the article Sachant wrote, and the forum thread there (at Gamerifts.com) and said to myself - these are girls getting paid to game and I bet they wouldn't forget an index in a $30 strategy guide.
Edit: And I was surprised someone didn't start a thread about this a month ago. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Big Gulp on December 08, 2004, 03:50:01 AM Honestly, who cares? Unless they're sitting on my cock while we play a coop game this doesn't affect my life one iota. If you can make a buck selling sex to sweaty geeks I say more power to ya.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 03:55:13 AM Quote from: Big Gulp Unless they're sitting on my cock while we play a coop game this doesn't affect my life one iota. They're? More than one at a time? Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Calantus on December 08, 2004, 04:01:10 AM I read the corp thread when it went up but it just didn't really excite me any. I mean yeah, Ubisoft got them together because they are hawt, not because they are trying to promote gaming to girls. On the other hand, this is a game publisher. I'll be shocked and surprised when they start killing puppies to promote their games. Maybe.
It does annoy me in a way though. Any time a company in the industry is doing something other than improving their business practices, working on a game, or just trying very hard not to fuck up it annoys me. GET BACK IN THE CAGE YOU MONKEYS. You got alot of work to do, especially on that last one. Oh, and John Romero wants to make you his bitch. Seriously schild, I know you admitted you know it's old but really... EDIT: Okay okay. Constructive mode now. Am I the only one who finds this isulting? In the same way that "X-TREEEEEME" on shit I buy is insulting? It doesn't say much for us gamers, or men in general that they feel that paying these women to play games and such would raise sales. I mean sure, I'll look if it's pleasing to the eye, but I've never bought anything because a hot chick I haven't met said it was cool, was into it, or who's picture was on it. The whole idea that sex sells just disgusts me. Not because I'm a prude but because marketing thinks that I think with my dick. And I don't. Really. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: plangent on December 08, 2004, 04:14:34 AM I think the main point to the Corp thread was watching them squirm under the barrage of verbal assault that was unleashed. I have nothing against them, but it was fun watching the show.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Trippy on December 08, 2004, 04:17:11 AM Okay, yeah, I don't see what the problem is here. I actually think it's a good thing a gaming company is actively supporting a group of gamers to promote their products. I don't see this as being any different than if, say, Valve decided to sponsor Team 3D to promote Counter-Strike Source, except for the fact that FragDolls are all women. Things have been progressing for a while now in terms of promoting online gaming as a competitive "sport" with things like CPL and WCG -- heck in Korea they have televised StarCraft matches. There are already a lot of sponsored online gaming clans and it looks like Ubisoft is taking it to the next level with their creation of FragDolls -- i.e. more direct corporate involvement -- and again I think that's a good thing. Sachant's editorial sounds like a lot of sour grapes cause she wasn't picked so now she's questioning the motivation behind the entire thing where I'm sure she would be defending them if she was.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2004, 04:19:32 AM I think what annoyed people is the fact that, at first, they claimed total objectivity in their 'gaming mantra.'
They were just a bunch of girls that gamed and wanted people to know it. Then it became clear that the forums were full of praise for a certain company and their games and that other companies and games weren't being covered as much and then it turned out that the whole thing was being paid for by certain companies and it was a BLATANT FUCKING MARKETING SCAM. You see, in this day and age of people getting defrauded, ripped off and generally abused due to stupidity, people have started to really, really dislike BLATANT FUCKING MARKETING SCAMS. I myself regularly take a wander into my Marketing Department and crash their printers and machines just to redress the balance of hate that they bring to the world with thier BLATANT MARKETING. But hey, that's just me. That's why it annoyed me. The 'hawt girls' were pulled together entirely so that the 'target market' (teenagers with more cum than sense and STRONG wrists) would fork over more cash. Blatant. Kill all Marketing and Sales people. Everywhere. Or, you know, whores at 3am in dark alleys... Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 04:20:34 AM The show became a mockery of itself by page 3. Lum derailed it quickly enough that any insults brought against the Fragdolls were brought on by themselves.
Calantus, I'd rather them sell me with sex than whatever else. I mean, sex is probably the only way I'd play Shadowbane again. Gameplay videos don't show off gameplay. E3 demos show a perfectly pre-made demo that will very rarely show anything realistic of the final product. Trust me on that. E3 demos are by and large total bullshit. That said, I don't think with my dick and it never told me to buy anything. Frankly, when would I ever have the time to read anything when I have to catch up on the fragdolls blogs everyday? They should have just slapped them on posters in Times Square. It's definately a case of "Keep your mouth shut and play the games, that's what we're paying you to do." I guess jumping on the blog bandwagon makes them seem more human. Or something. Though, if I wanted to read a girls blog, I'd read the ones at SG. Quote Any time a company in the industry is doing something other than improving their business practices, working on a game, or just trying very hard not to fuck up it annoys me. GET BACK IN THE CAGE YOU MONKEYS. You got alot of work to do, especially on that last one. None of this matters if they can't sell games. /me points at Black Isle. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 04:22:48 AM Quote from: Ironwood people have started to really, really dislike BLATANT FUCKING MARKETING SCAMS. Marketing scams with tits and pretty faces don't bother me. This one has both. That and they weren't trying to sell you v|c0d1n. They were trying to sell you Halo 2 and the like. Which you or someone you know already bought. I'd say the girls did their job quite well. Though, if they hadn't been there, I bet there would have been no decrease in sales. They should have saved these girls to market whatever the next pooper to come out of UBISoft may be. The new SB Expansion came out today, right? Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2004, 04:35:14 AM Quote from: schild Quote from: Ironwood people have started to really, really dislike BLATANT FUCKING MARKETING SCAMS. Marketing scams with tits and pretty faces don't bother me. This one has both. That and they weren't trying to sell you v|c0d1n. They were trying to sell you Halo 2 and the like. Which you or someone you know already bought. I'd say the girls did their job quite well. Though, if they hadn't been there, I bet there would have been no decrease in sales. They should have saved these girls to market whatever the next pooper to come out of UBISoft may be. The new SB Expansion came out today, right? So, essentially you're asking 'I don't think this is a big deal, so what's the big deal ?' Answered your own question there hoss. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Soukyan on December 08, 2004, 04:57:46 AM Frag Doodz (http://www.bungie.net/Fragdoodz/index.htm)
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: SirBruce on December 08, 2004, 05:23:01 AM Schild, taking your last couple of thread comments into consideration - you're a shill for UBI, aren't you? A/S/L?
Bruce Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: stray on December 08, 2004, 05:34:37 AM Yeah, it's marketing on Ubi's part, big deal. This is an industry. Not Punk Rock. Direct your righteous anger to something worthwhile. Games are about as noble as Oreo Cookies.
Also, just because it's marketing doesn't necessarily mean the chicks themselves deserve so much shit. It'd be different if they were Booth Babes/fakes, but they are in fact real gamers. Naive of the consequences or opportunistic maybe (hey, sounds like a good job to me too), but I find it hard to believe these girls were intentionally trying to scam anyone. Maybe Ubi was, but they weren't. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 05:50:32 AM Quote from: SirBruce Schild, taking your last couple of thread comments into consideration - you're a shill for UBI, aren't you? A/S/L? Har har. 12/F/Azn ^_^ Don't push it. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: HaemishM on December 08, 2004, 08:08:49 AM There were plenty of things wrong with the FragDolls thing, none of which is really worth getting apoplectic about. Gamers get paid to shill products. Frankly, I'm more insulted by that "TheInsider" turd coming around here trying to shill Shadowbane than a bunch of quasi-goth poster girls for anorexic heroic chic models pimping UbiSoft games. I'd rather they have come right out and said "We R paid to shill UBI(BUBIES)" than anything else, but whatever.
The biggest problem with the whole FragDolls thing is that its not really representative of "gamergirlzzz" or whatever marketing term they want to try to label it with. It was done in such a hamfisted way. It was blatantly using moderaly attractive skinny girls to market to the EXISTING FPS MARKET. There's the problem. It could have been a wonderful opportunity to actually market not just to horny, undersexed, over-pr0ned single males, but also to female gamers. You cannot market to female gamers by putting only skinny, pretty chicks in the thing and over-emphasizing their sex. Where are the chunky FragDolls? Where are the not over-airbrushed FragDolls? Where is any FragDoll that looks like a normal gamer girl, as opposed to the really small segment of gamer girls who look like they could have stepped off of a photo shoot ten minutes ago? Where are the black FragDolls? The FragDolls won't open the market to new, non-traditional game audiences, just like Elf Boobie ads won't open NWN to new markets. Which is fine if you just want to max out the current market, but does shit for the future. It's short-sighted and stupid, and the web site looks idiotic. It's the same stupidity as TechTV displayed when they put that stupid twat Morgan on X-Play. She's a total dud as a host, and she made that Adam guy look even more stupid than he already did. Instead of what it used to be, which was a decent if sometimes silly show about games to an always silly, always going for the low humor show that happened to show game footage every once in a while. It's easy, takes little to no marketing thought, and doesn't explore a wide open new market. Grade: D Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2004, 08:20:30 AM Just to clarify, only two or three of them are attractive. The others are ok, and the blonde chick is scary.
In any case, yes, its the marketing to your pants objective, and my pants don't buy games. My pants care about porn and free porn at that. So, if you want to market a game to me try finding that ellusive fun factor that makes me feel like I should fork over my $50 to your team. Pirates, you get my money. KOTOR, you get my money. WoW, you get my money. Fragdolls, you get a stiff one. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Margalis on December 08, 2004, 08:21:34 AM All marketing is BS, if it's going to be BS, might as well be BS with hottish chicks. I give it an A+.
Look, it's better than giving Thresh his own column in PC Gamer where he talked up Quake 3 every month. (Yes, Thresh really did have a PC Gamer column basically devoted to fellating Q3) Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Ironwood on December 08, 2004, 09:26:05 AM Quote from: Paelos In any case, yes, its the marketing to your pants objective, and my pants don't buy games. My pants care about porn and free porn at that. Winner. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: sidereal on December 08, 2004, 11:10:21 AM The problem is always the same problem. There are a large number of females who love and play video games and deserve to be respected as gamers as much as any guy, but now when any dude thinks about female gamers they think about those glorified pole dancers. So the problem is most men are libido-driven idiots. A fact which is certainly not the Frag Dolls' doing, and you can't fault them for making a buck on it. But it's sad anyway.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Joe on December 08, 2004, 11:29:13 AM Quote from: sidereal The problem is always the same problem. There are a large number of females who love and play video games and deserve to be respected as gamers as much as any guy, but now when any dude thinks about female gamers they think about those glorified pole dancers. So the problem is most men are libido-driven idiots. A fact which is certainly not the Frag Dolls' doing, and you can't fault them for making a buck on it. But it's sad anyway. How about respecting yourself enough to be able to see the Frag Dolls for what they are and keep them from molding your perception of women into an airbrushed ideal that can't and won't ever be attained? Personally, I respect anyone on the Internet until they start using their sexuality for things other than, well, until they start using their sexuality, period. A lot of the girls I've run across are particularly bad about declaring their femininity and then reveling in the attention they receive. A lot, not all. It's just like an overactive furry, or an overactive male talking about all the sex he's getting. It's stupid and should stop. At the very least, the Fragdolls kept their shit in one place that I never knew about. The fact we keep bringing it up just validates their effectiveness. Good for them, I say. Unique advertising is fun. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: d4rkj3di on December 08, 2004, 11:42:34 AM I'll have to agree that part of the immediate dislike for the Fragdolls stemmed from their original claims of being "just a bunch of like minded girl gamers who got together strictly by chance" when in fact they are paid employees of Ubisoft.
The continuing dislike came from the extremely poor showing in the threads at various sites calling them exactly what they were. All of that has now slipped into indifference, as they have used up 14 min and 45 sec of their alloted fame. If they would like a fame extension, they could file suit against Ubisoft for sexual harassment or something equally feministic. Most of my personal feelings for the Fragdolls are based on the knowledge of the true inner workings of said group, seeing as how I am close friends with one of the people who answered the "cattle call" and over the course of 4 months had several phone and online interviews for one of the positions. It got a little creepy about the time that one of the questions was "Would you be willing to install a webcam at your computer and in your living room to broadcast your image as you played online?" Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: El Gallo on December 08, 2004, 11:50:41 AM Can I hate them because the name "fragdolls" is so damn stupid? Because it is.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Morfiend on December 08, 2004, 12:16:38 PM The hate is comming from the fact they are paid employees of Ubi, but they tried to come off as a normal clan of hot 'gurlz' who play games. When in fact they applied for the job and are paid by Ubi. Not to mention they review games, and again, it wasnt loud and clear that these 'gurlz' are paid Ubi employees.
Oh, it came out quick enough, but at first they tried to deny it. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 12:28:36 PM What if they were a clan first and UBI saw them at a lan party and approached them. We don't know the WHOLE truth. Fuck, I'd love to get paid by UBI (or anyone else...) to pimp my shit and talk like a moron on a blog.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Shockeye on December 08, 2004, 12:38:10 PM Quote from: schild Fuck, I'd love to get paid by UBI (or anyone else...) to pimp my shit and talk like a moron on a blog. You're halfway there. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: d4rkj3di on December 08, 2004, 12:52:40 PM Quote from: schild What if they were a clan first and UBI saw them at a lan party and approached them. Then they would be deserving of at least a shred of respect. Quote from: schild We don't know the WHOLE truth. I don't need to know the whole truth. I know the facts. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: HaemishM on December 08, 2004, 01:12:32 PM Quote from: El Gallo Can I hate them because the name "fragdolls" is so damn stupid? Because it is. Nah, hate them for those "Nanny" inspired drawings they plastered their site with. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Mesozoic on December 08, 2004, 01:19:44 PM Quote from: schild What if they were a clan first and UBI saw them at a lan party and approached them. We don't know the WHOLE truth. Fuck, I'd love to get paid by UBI (or anyone else...) to pimp my shit and talk like a moron on a blog. They were approached by Ubi individually and "assembled" by Ubi. This from a fragdoll posting on their site in response to the original corp thread. Since the response in question has no dedicated URL, 'ere ya go: Quote It has recently come to our attention that some believe that our connection to Ubisoft has not been sufficiently explained on our website. This has resulted in accusations that we’re nothing more than an insidious stealth marketing ploy. Since I’m the one Frag Doll who is also a full-time Ubisoft employee and, thus, have been around from the beginning, I am probably the best to help make this connection more explicit. First, I have one point I’d like to clarify before I get into storytelling mode: we have never tried to conceal the relationship between the Frag Dolls and Ubisoft. In fact, the Ubisoft logo intentionally appears on our website, we use and communicate via ubi.com forums, and we’ve shared openly that we were recruited by Ubisoft. Neither we, nor Ubisoft, anticipated that some folks would be confused by the information that was (or apparently wasn’t) on our site. In order to avoid future misunderstandings and properly educate site visitors, we are putting together an FAQ that will include the following information and more. The Frag Dolls are a group of girl gamers brought together by Ubisoft to play and promote games. It’s much like a sports sponsorship in which a company helps the athlete do what she does best. Ubisoft asks us to be informed about certain games so that we can talk about and play them well. In exchange, we’re supported in playing video games, competing, going to events all over the country, writing our own editorial blogs about whatever, being involved in online communities, and generally representing girl gamers by being ourselves. Because this is a community outreach effort on Ubisoft’s part as much as it is anything else, we have a mutually beneficial relationship. The recruitment process was straightforward. The Craig's List “casting call” for girl gamers was posted. Respondents went through a multi-stage interview process in which the coordinators and candidates discussed the project’s overall goals and direction. In the final interview stage each candidate’s gaming skills were tested via Xbox Live. The competition was intense and final offers were made to the cream of the crop. From the beginning it was obvious that the team’s success would be dependent on we girls contributing our own passion and purpose to the project. It’s definitely nice to get a paycheck for playing games, but all of us see this as more than just a fun source of income. Being women who have been gaming for years, we have plenty of experience with the stereotypes that run rampant in gaming communities. By working in tandem with Ubisoft, we’ve gotten the opportunity to break down those misconceptions and show everyone from the hardcore gamers to the mainstream that girls not only enjoy games, we kick ass at them. If you’re looking for more details, keep an eye out for the FAQ, and remember that there’s always an open invitation for people to come find us in-game. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Paelos on December 08, 2004, 01:32:52 PM Quote from: schild What if they were a clan first and UBI saw them at a lan party and approached them. We don't know the WHOLE truth. Fuck, I'd love to get paid by UBI (or anyone else...) to pimp my shit and talk like a moron on a blog. You're just softballing them now, aren't you? Put it on a tee for people next time. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: UD_Delt on December 08, 2004, 01:38:24 PM Fraggles?
(http://www.fragglerocker.com/pics/characters_red.jpg) Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Morfiend on December 08, 2004, 01:49:28 PM Quote from: schild What if they were a clan first and UBI saw them at a lan party and approached them. We don't know the WHOLE truth. Fuck, I'd love to get paid by UBI (or anyone else...) to pimp my shit and talk like a moron on a blog. If you read the thread on Corp, or Ubi, you would know that Ubi actually put out a application, and put the team together themselves. So no, its not just a clan getting sponsored, it makes them Ubi employees. Thats what the whole big dead was about. Anyway. Dead Horse. *Edit* Guess I should read the rest of the thread before swinging at the "T". Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 08, 2004, 02:03:30 PM Hmmm. Ok, maybe I just don't see the problem. I was expecting better input than the other threads, so thanks. But yea, I just can't muster up enough hate to care about this kind of shit. I mean, if I were a hot girl - I'd love the job. Assuming I liked video games. Which, if I were a hot girl, I probably wouldn't. I think...nevermind.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: doubleplus on December 08, 2004, 03:58:41 PM Selling out is the new being hardcore. Doesn't everyone know that? It's just a shame Ubi sucks.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Krakrok on December 08, 2004, 03:58:49 PM Quote The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. About ~30 years late. Or the more things change the more they stay the same. http://www.safestuff.com/atariart15_small.jpg Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: doubleplus on December 08, 2004, 04:00:32 PM Wow, blast from the past. Put one of the new girls in that outfit, please.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Calantus on December 08, 2004, 08:29:05 PM My annoyance mostly stems from the fact that it's useless advertising. I mean, what are they advertising? Ubisoft? What the hell does that accomplish? Who buys based on publisher? So all they really get is a bunch of girls to drag along to release events/tournaments, and who can mention their games in blogs. What a waste of time and money. I could have been used to try and lure more females into gaming, but instead it's used to market to teenage boys *Yawn*. Sending out good free stuff to sites that people already visit would do half of that. And the tournaments/release events? I can't see how just putting up big cash prizes wouldn't do the same for attendance and attention.
And the Black Isle reference was a low blow. No joke, but just 2 days ago I re-installed Planescape: Torment and was playing it only 10 minutes ago. And from memory there was no sequal because of low sales. So yeah, I get your point. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Moroni on December 08, 2004, 09:07:25 PM More people than you would think purchase based on publisher. There are a lot of star fuckers out there who care about lead developers. I have still yet to figure out why people do that.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Calantus on December 09, 2004, 01:38:53 AM Quote from: Moroni More people than you would think purchase based on publisher. There are a lot of star fuckers out there who care about lead developers. I have still yet to figure out why people do that. I added the bold for your convenience. I buy certain developers. Blizzard for instance. Insomniac. Plus a few others, but never a publisher. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 09, 2004, 06:52:38 AM The problem is that it's assembling a clan of girl gamers, based primarily on their looks. IIRC, Sachant applied to be part of the FragDolls, and was rejected because she is not "OMG HAWT GRRL GAMER".
Moreover, they were trying to pass themselves off as just a regular gaming clan, and spouting opinions about various games. As it turns out, they tend to fancy UbiSoft games....and lo and behold, they are sponsored by Ubi. Not every woman who games is a thin 21 year old sorority chick with a babydoll t-shirt and stripper gloves. It is insulting to women that a group assembled supposedly to "promote women in gaming" perpetuates the shallow fantasies of most male gamers, while being largely misrepresentative of female gamers. Moreover, a giant "fuck you" to Ubi for using the FragDolls as a device for "marketing to our pants". You want to put together a group of top female FPS players? GREAT. Use a real all-girl clan, or assemble a group based on their gaming prowess instead of their cup size. And promote them the same damn way....yes, even the fat chick with glasses, braces, and adult acne. Of course there is no problem with it from the FragDoll's perspective....except for that little thing called ethics and self-respect. Looking at a collection of pictures and saying "gee, all of my clanmates are skinny, attractive, young girls...most female gamers don't look like this" might just clue you in that you aren't being respected for your gaming ability, you're just another piece of meat for gaming dorks to drool over....a video game nerd version of Vanna fucking White. Bring the noise. Cheers.............. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: plangent on December 09, 2004, 06:56:32 AM They should have hired Asia Carrerra instead. She's a gamer.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Azaroth on December 09, 2004, 07:02:15 AM What's the fuss about?
They're not even that hot. And no, I didn't read the thread. This illustrates how much I give a shit. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: stray on December 09, 2004, 07:10:32 AM Personally, I don't find them all that, so if this was meant to be some marketing effort with super hot girls, then Ubi failed. They should have just hired booth babes if that's all this was supposed to be.
I think the Frag Dollz "look" is about as authentic as it comes, short of grossing me out (adult acne? no thx). I'm not saying they're ugly or anything, just pretty, but in a geeky sort of way (well, Brooklyn is the only exception). Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Calantus on December 09, 2004, 08:05:23 AM The odds of them being even as hot/pretty/whatever as they are by accident would be pretty low. Not impossible mind, just not very likely. Don't believe me? Look around your office tomorrow or any gathering of normal people and most likely there will be a few people that don't meet the fragdolls standard. You might not even see one up to the standard (like in my office).
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: HaemishM on December 09, 2004, 08:54:54 AM Quote from: Dark Vengeance The problem is that it's assembling a clan of girl gamers, based primarily on their looks. IIRC, Sachant applied to be part of the FragDolls, and was rejected because she is not "OMG HAWT GRRL GAMER". Based on the picture she put as her icon on Corp, I'd take Sachant on looks over any of the FragDolls. But that's just me. And Asia Carrera would be a much better spokesperson, since gamer geeks have heard of her, she's a good gamer, and she's very fucking intelligent. But I suppose they got scared off by the OMGOSHREALPR0N! Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Shockeye on December 09, 2004, 11:14:10 AM Quote from: HaemishM Based on the picture she put as her icon on Corp, I'd take Sachant on looks over any of the FragDolls. But that's just me. I'd take any of the FragDolls over Sachant if they could include an index in any strategy guide they write. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 09, 2004, 01:41:46 PM Cute girls who share my gaming interest are a good thing. Computer addict that I am, an understanding of computer game addiction would be an obvious neccessity in a significient others.
Cute girls who share my gaming interest (or pretend to) assembled by a manipulative bastard under the pure intent of picking my pocket are a bad thing. Get your hands off my wallet, you dastardly digital succubi! Ah well, I'd be robbing the cradle to be interested in those high school aged tarts anyway. For that matter, lusting after them would be akin to going after <insert rockette name here>. Sure, I had a chance to pick them up, but they're just so possessive - Britney Spears won't stop calling me. Image worship is even more heinous than those that make it possible. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Resvrgam on December 11, 2004, 01:19:22 PM Quote from: HaemishM What Haemish said... I completely agree. As a guy, I'm not really bothered by more jugs and sexy women thrown in my face trying to whore some stupid product or another... As for the women I know who actually play games are already in adversity by having to pretend they're guys in FPS games due to constant vaginal references and "ASL, Baby?", it's another blow against the team: Come see our E3 Booth babes year-round. So, in essence, now many women are being held to these MTV-styled softcores showing us their mid-riffs standards. Again, I'm a bloke: I don't mind boobs attached to selling products (loved the HBO documentary about that in Atlantic City) but: is this what we're trying to promote this industry as? "Fat/Ugly chicks need not apply." Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 01:34:23 PM I'm not so sure that "As a guy, I'm not offended" is the universal you make it out to be. Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of corperate America trying to get it's hooks in my wallet through my labito. Can't even turn on the television these days without being flashed with impossibly proportioned women geared specifically at prodding my man-mind towards the gates of capitalistic bounty. I'll take that anti-viagra about now.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 11, 2004, 02:07:46 PM Quote from: geldonyetich I'm not so sure that "As a guy, I'm not offended" is the universal you make it out to be. Personally, I'm getting a bit tired of corperate America trying to get it's hooks in my wallet through my labito. Can't even turn on the television these days without being flashed with impossibly proportioned women geared specifically at prodding my man-mind towards the gates of capitalistic bounty. I'll take that anti-viagra about now. Sex sells. They tell you that literally on day one of an advertising course. The industry is driven by Freud...sex and death. And it's been like this for decades. Nice to see you're starting to pick up on it. Btw, as an FYI, it's LIBIDO and CORPORATE. Spell check can be your friend. Bring the noise. Cheers............. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 02:11:10 PM Honestly Dark Vengeance, spell check is for you hard working yuppies, not us slacking college white trash. You'd think your repeated reminders of our status differences would have proved a mnemonic device for you to remember that.
As for sex sells, yes I know that. However, oddball that I am, I'm the type to ask if perhaps the ends do not justify the means? Although, being a sales exec, I could see how it may look like I'm spitting blasphemy over here. $$$ > All, right? Certainly if you want to stay employed in that line of work. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: SirBruce on December 11, 2004, 02:44:44 PM Fragdolls were on CNN today. The were up-front about their Ubisoft connection.
Bruce Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 11, 2004, 02:49:57 PM Quote from: geldonyetich Honestly Dark Vengence, spell check is for you hard working yuppies, not us slacking college white trash. You'd think your telling me that so many times would have proved a mnemonic device for you to remember that. I just wasn't sure you were aware of the proper spelling of either word, or that you were even spelling them incorrectly. Quote As for sex sells, yes I know that. However, oddball that I am, I'm the type to ask if perhaps the ends to not justify the means? It's not your decision....it's the decision of the company that is doing the ad. Quite frankly, the universaility you apply to "as a man, I'm not offended" proves that the end does justify the means. The FragDolls are a marketing tactic aimed squarely at us and other gamers like us. Some folks may indeed be enticed into buyng products pimped by the Dolls, and even the most offended of us aren't likely to boycott a quality title over this. But knowing where your line of thought goes, you need a reality check on this subject. People advertise this way because it is shown to be effective. Find a method that is more effective, and then you can go on a moral crusade to clean up and revolutionize the advertising industry. Quote Although, being a sales exec, I could see how it may look like I'm spitting blasphemy over here. $$$ > All, right? Certainly if you want to stay employed in that line of work. I'm a sales analyst...my job is about understanding the market, not the market understanding my company. Our company is B2B, not consumer sales....so the advertising tends to be a bit different. Additionally, since we are a distributor, the advertising done by manufacturers tends to drive brand recognition...not that we even want our customers to tie our company name to a specific line of equipment anyway. Our sales reps go out into the field and use a consultative approach...our entire strategy is about getting away from pushing 'the boxes' and being focused on customized solutions based on the needs of each client. You're not spitting blashphemy, just a decided lack of business savvy....and a clear point that you understand very little about me, what I do, or the fields of advertising, marketing, and sales in general. The part that makes you ignorant enough to be dangerous is that you THINK you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Shit, sales is the business equivalent to poker. It's a skill. The game of sales itself doesn't change that much based on product....that's why you hear phrases like 'he could sell ice to an eskimo'. The nice part about having a career in sales is that talented sales professionals are literally ALWAYS in demand. You just have to get it through your head that most of the guys you talk to at Best Buy, or JC Penny, or EB are not sales professionals. They are glorified clerks. Very few of them have any kind of actual sales training or understanding of the craft. In any case, I don't see you making much of a point beyond 'capitalism caters to the LCD, and is thus immoral'. Which is a subject best continued via PM or in the politics forum. Bring the noise. Cheers.............. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 03:11:36 PM Quote from: Dark Vengeance I just wasn't sure you were aware of the proper spelling of either word, or that you were even spelling them incorrectly. Really? When you show up on the thread replying to me, I've grown to expect most of what you say to be a thinly veiled attack. If that wasn't the case this time, you have my apoligies. I wasn't really bothering to check my spelling there, but I think that I'd have known I was spelling those incorrectly if I were paying attention. I'm not sure why so many people are getting on my case about spelling lately. If yuo cna mak ths otu wy iz x-act spelng rely necesary? It's not like I'm trying to publish this or something. Quote from: Dark Vengeance Quite frankly, the universaility you apply to "as a man, I'm not offended" proves that the end does justify the means. Actually, I was saying that wasn't a universal. The previous poster is where the "as a man, I'm not an offended" statement came from. Quote from: Dark Vengeance But knowing where your line of thought goes, you need a reality check on this subject. People advertise this way because it is shown to be effective. Find a method that is more effective, and then you can go on a moral crusade to clean up and revolutionize the advertising industry That's more or less the long and short of it, I know. Advertisers... hell, just about everybody sticks to what works. However, from an environmental standpoint, just because a method of assuring consumption works does not mean it'll have the best long term environmental effects. Of course, I'm talking about pollution of the mental state of the consumers as opposed to a literal environmental impact, but I found it a good analogy for effective consumption vrs long term effects. Sex sells being the quickest way to profit? So is tossing garbage straight into the ocean. So, in your belief, does the advertising medium mirroring society, is society mirroring the advertising medium, or both? Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 11, 2004, 03:49:44 PM Quote from: geldonyetich If yuo cna mak ths otu wy iz x-act spelng rely necesary? It's not like I'm trying to publish this or something. Because when you are trying to communicate with others, it's just good form to try and make yourself as understandable as possible. Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood. Quote Actually, I was saying that wasn't a universal. The previous poster is where the "as a man, I'm not an offended" statement came from. Point taken. But if your only objection to them is the nature of advertising itself, you don't so much object to the FragDolls as you do advertising and capitalism in general (again, not subjects appropriate for this thread). Quote However, from an environmental standpoint, just because a method of assuring consumption works does not mean it'll have the best long term environmental effects. Of course, I'm talking about pollution of the mental state of the consumers as opposed to a literal environmental impact. With all due respect, if you insist on drinking the bong water, gargle and spit...don't swallow. Choose whatever crayon you want to color the rhetoric...you're just repeating "advertising caters to the LCD and is thus immoral". Which is one step removed from saying the same about capitalism (yet again, a line of discussion not suited for this thread). This type of advertising works because of the base motivations of mankind...avoid pain, pursue pleasure. Advertising doesn't corrupt mankind, it simply plays our base instincts like Hendrix with a Stratocaster. Quote So, in your belief, does the advertising medium mirroring society, is society mirroring the advertising medium, or both? Most people don't care enough to tune in (mentally) and watch someone do a Ben Stein impression and lay out a logical case for why their product is superior to other products of its type. They've got 30 to 60 seconds to get your attention, educate you about the product, and make you want the product...making it entertaining is secondary. If they don't do part 1 or 3, they fail....advertising is first and foremost about demand generation, if you don't watch the message or ultimately want the product, it's fodder. We tend to block out advertising consciously anyway...even with "ZAP BOOM POW BUY THIS PRODUCT AND YOU'LL BE AN IMMORTAL SEX GOD" messages. It's doing what is most effective. As to the reflection stuff, you're talking about an invention of man, used by man, to sell stuff to man, by playing on the weaknesses of man. The answer to your question is that it's two mirrors pointed directly at each other....a reflection of a reflection of a reflection of a reflection and so on. And indeed, man is in there somewhere. Waving. He says "hi". Bring the noise. Cheers............. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 04:10:51 PM Quote from: Dark Vengeance then seek to be understood. A weak point of mine, to be sure. However, I wager my issue with being understood far transcends spelling alone. (Though perhaps the reason, not wanting to invest too much effort in a largely recreational post, is the same.) Quote from: Dark Vengeance But if your only objection to them is the nature of advertising itself, you don't so much object to the FragDolls as you do advertising and capitalism in general (again, not subjects appropriate for this thread). I don't like Fragdolls because I don't approve of the lack of ethics involved in the advertising methodology. You may not agree with my reasoning, but it doesn't make it off-topic. Quote from: Dark Vengeance As to the reflection stuff, you're talking about an invention of man, used by man, to sell stuff to man, by playing on the weaknesses of man. The answer to your question is that it's two mirrors pointed directly at each other....a reflection of a reflection of a reflection of a reflection and so on. And indeed, man is in there somewhere. Waving. He says "hi". So if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're saying that although advertisements reflect mankind, and mankind emulates (reflects) advertisements, it's your belief that there's no longlasting reprocussions of this occuring. Interesting. Well, I didn't expect to resolve the whole "the media's ethical influence on mankind" issue in one post. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 11, 2004, 04:58:18 PM Quote from: geldonyetich I don't like Fragdolls because I don't approve of the lack of ethics involved in the advertising methodology. You may not agree with my reasoning, but it doesn't make it off-topic. If your objection to the FragDolls is as simple as "I find that advertising and capitalism are inherently immoral" it is very close indeed to being off-topic. This thread isn't here to decry the evils of capitalism or advertising, which happens to include the FragDolls....it's to talk specifically about the FragDolls case itself. Quote So if I'm understanding you correctly here, you're saying that although advertisements reflect mankind, and mankind emulates (reflects) advertisements, it's your belief that there's no longlasting reprocussions of this occuring. No. You're reading way too much into it. What I'm saying is that everything mankind does reflects upon mankind. As well, by being human what we do will reflect our being human. The line of conversation in bringing us here isn't too far removed from "does art imitate life, or the opposite". But this is ADVERTISING. Advertising isn't making savvy social commentary or detailing the struggle of the human condition....IT IS SAYING THAT FROSTED LUCKY CHARMS ARE MAGICALLY DELICIOUS. Is advertising corrupting mankind? No. MANKIND is corrupting mankind, just as it has for centuries. Advertising doesn't change that, it just sets it to music and 'corrupts' people to the tune of "Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer weiner". Bring the noise. Cheers............... Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Moroni on December 11, 2004, 07:52:25 PM My god. It is like two retarded babies play fighting.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 08:19:26 PM That from a guy who calls himself Moroni. I suppose the "takes one to know one" clause might apply.
Quote from: Dark Vengeance This thread isn't here to decry the evils of capitalism or advertising, which happens to include the FragDolls....it's to talk specifically about the FragDolls case itself. So what, I can't supply my opinion about FragDolls without it becoming off topic all of a sudden? Bah, whatever. Quote from: Dark Vengeance Is advertising corrupting mankind? No. MANKIND is corrupting mankind, just as it has for centuries. Advertising doesn't change that, it just sets it to music and 'corrupts' people to the tune of "Oh I wish I were an Oscar Meyer weiner". Much on the same tangent as the "guns don't kill people, people don't kill people" angle, I see. Heck, we can be here all night if that's the stance you're taking. Peaceniks like myself might argue that while guns may not be responsible for the motivation they do provide an easier means in which dark agendas can be carried out. Gravitate that to advertisements and you have my argument there - just because mankind tends to corrupt mankind does not justify faster means in doing so by removing ethical limitations from advertising. To say otherwise is to say that corruption doesn’t need to be slowed. Generating a counterargument to this is probably as easy as recycling an anti-gun control arugment, so I don't honestly expect to "win" here - the gun control debate is far from settled and it's been through biger minds than ours. Is Fragdolls really all that heinous? Well, from a hardcore gamer's perspective, cheesecake never did make a good additive to gaming, so there is that. Also, depicting game designers as pop idols proved an ugly little chapter in gaming history, and I can't see that depicting female gamers as pop idols going much better. Those are two new reasons on top of my already mentioned dislike of degrading advertisement methodology. Personally, the whole thing seems to insult gamer’s intelligence, unless maybe you’re lady who considers them Girl Power conductors. From a guy's perspective it mostly works on the libido angle, which is one angle I'm getting tired of being attacked on. (Ooh, look, I see I have a new subtitle. I've apparently been upgraded from one lacking a spine to a homosexual essense distributor. If I keep this up, I might graduate to pool boy or Vice President Quayle. If you guys were being fair, you'd give DV a "Helps Geldonyetich fag up every thread he posts in" subtitle. Really, I couldn't have done it without him and you should know it. I (mostly) have stopped posting on the Political forum altogether and he chases me over here. I mean, WTF? All he's basically doing is knitpicking until I bore everyone to tears explaining my posiiton. That wasn't my idea, honest.) Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: SirBruce on December 11, 2004, 08:53:44 PM Quote from: geldonyetich That from a guy who calls himself Moroni. I suppose the "takes one to know one" clause might apply. Er, I suspect his name is a reference to Moroni of the Book of Mormon, not some play upon the word "moron". Bruce Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 09:09:10 PM Whoops, once again I've blundered over the toes of organized religion, did I? Honestly, I could be serving several consecutive terms of hell for all my social faux pas. It might even be spilling over from the afterlife into the now. That would certainly explain why many of my threads end up like this, and why I apparently have an infernally inspired motivation to try posting here anyway. The guy who has to roll a rock uphill for all eternity got off easy.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Moroni on December 11, 2004, 09:26:40 PM Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Joe on December 11, 2004, 09:33:23 PM Quote from: geldonyetich The guy who has to roll a rock uphill for all eternity got off easy. That "guy" would be Sisyphus. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 09:52:19 PM Quote from: Moroni Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste. I wasn't really trying very hard to make fun of you, you know. I can't really see the point; I don't need the ego gratification of needlessly tearing into others. That's probably why I don't get along very well with some of you wretches. You have my apologies if I insulted you. I honestly had no idea who Moroni was when I posted that. Listen guys, I've only been fagging up threads out of self defence. You've got an issue with me personally, even a simple grammar or spelling correction, send me a private message or something. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Calantus on December 11, 2004, 10:25:16 PM What was this topic about again? I've forgotten.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Margalis on December 11, 2004, 10:34:26 PM Jesus, Geldon and DV need to star together in some reality show, that would rule. Maybe "The Real Bosom Buddies."
And yes, it is like retarded babies, but retarded babies have an excuse. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 11, 2004, 10:55:30 PM Meh, the topic was pretty much spent by the time I got here anyway. The Fragdolls aren't exactly an encyclopedia of meaningful gaming commentary. Sirbruces mentioning the Fragdoll's showing up on CNN, and Soukyan's mention of the Blizzard hosted parody, Fragdoodz, generated nil replies. I'd say that a discusion over what is ethical in advertising was just about all that was left. That might have seemed like something other than a retarded slapfight if it wasn't conducted with claws out, but I guess old habits die hard.
In retribution, I deny you the greatness that is Porco Russo. You now must endure the dung beetle. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 12, 2004, 06:31:07 AM Quote from: Margalis Jesus, Geldon and DV need to star together in some reality show, that would rule. Maybe "The Real Bosom Buddies." And yes, it is like retarded babies, but retarded babies have an excuse. Hey, he supplied the chair, the rope, the light fixture, the instructions on "How to tie a noose"...all I did was say "you're not actually stupid enough to tie the noose, climb up on the chair, attach the noose to the light fixture, and put it around your neck, are you?" Sure enough, he was. I was just pointing and laughing. Thanks Moroni, for having the gumption to kick that chair out from under him. Comedy gold. Bring the noise. Cheers............. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Ironwood on December 12, 2004, 06:50:47 AM Quote from: Moroni Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste. Am I the only one who feels stupid now, since I assumed it was from 'Johnny Dangerously' ?! Yeah ? OK then. DV, Geld ? You guys need to learn to share a board with others. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: geldonyetich on December 12, 2004, 09:52:48 AM Quote from: Dark Vengeance Hey, he supplied the chair, the rope, the light fixture, the instructions on "How to tie a noose"...all I did was say "you're not actually stupid enough to tie the noose, climb up on the chair, attach the noose to the light fixture, and put it around your neck, are you?" Really DV, you don't give yourself enough credit in your ability to inspire suicide in others. I wonder how much the Fragdolls are paid to deathmatch all day and blog about it afterwards. Maybe I should send Ubisoft an application. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Dark Vengeance on December 12, 2004, 11:22:09 AM Quote from: geldonyetich Really DV, you don't give yourself enough credit in your ability to inspire suicide in others. Apparently, you haven't made any kind of qualitative comparisons on the matter. Here is some recommended reading for you. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=manly_suicide) Bring the noise. Cheers............ Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: schild on December 12, 2004, 12:40:47 PM Quote Headbutt the sidewalk: Manliness: 10 Style: 3 Awesomeness: 10 Mess: 4 What you need: a sidewalk. How to do it: Step 1: Slam your head into the sidewalk. Step 2: Repeat. Headbutting is probably the manliest thing ever. Not only is it useful for suicide, it's also a great way to break up with your girlfriend. For example, I couldn't find the words to tell my ex that our relationship was over, so one day while we were watching TV I headbutt her in the tits. Then I picked up my jacket and left. No awkward goodbyes, no "still friends" bullshit. Just a couple of bruised titties and a failed relationship. I rule. LOL! Seriously. You two don't get to talk to eachother anymore. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Joe on December 12, 2004, 01:30:59 PM Quote from: Ironwood Quote from: Moroni Bruce is right, it is from the Book of Mormon. It is designed to be ironic on many levels. And if making fun of a username is the best you can do, I feel sorry for you. You really are a tepid piece of human waste. Am I the only one who feels stupid now, since I assumed it was from 'Johnny Dangerously' ?! Yeah ? OK then. DV, Geld ? You guys need to learn to share a board with others. Did you know your last name's an adverb? Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: d4rkj3di on December 14, 2004, 10:48:51 AM Fragdolls.
Let's say a hypothetical gaming company was hiring for a hypothetical job promoting its games, and asked a hypotheticial question as to a hypothetical applicant's marital status, then later told the hypothetical applicant that they were not hypothetically being hired because they were not hypothetically married. Would that be a violation of Federal Law in regards to hiring practices, in theory? Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: shiznitz on December 14, 2004, 11:34:20 AM It is illegal to ask about marital/children/health status in an job interview. However, it generally isn't hard to get this information without actually asking for it. Asking about a candidate's willingness to travel, work crunch time, etc is usually enough to get a candidate to volunteer this information.
It would still be illegal to not hire them due to those factors, but if you never asked there is no way to prove it was a consideration. Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Righ on December 15, 2004, 10:24:00 AM The Fragdolls are to gaming what the Dahm triplets on Fox's "Renovate My Family" are to construction.
Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: SirBruce on December 15, 2004, 11:25:39 AM The Dahm Triplets are on Renovate My Family??? Damn, I gotta start watching that show.
Bruce Title: The Fragdolls - A month late. A buck short. Post by: Lum on December 15, 2004, 04:38:52 PM Quote from: schild The show became a mockery of itself by page 3. Lum derailed it quickly enough that any insults brought against the Fragdolls were brought on by themselves. Hey now, that wasn't just a derail, that was performance art! |