f13.net

This thread is where spoiler discussion of the game goes. Also, spoiler-like discussion of item crafting, demon soul usage, level spoilers, etc. The other thread will be relegated to non-spoiler generica.

On Thursday I will publish a non-spoiler discussion/article of the game. In one week I will be making a post talking about the storyline and such. It will be spoiler heavy.

So, if you want to read it, I suggest finishing the game (fucking WORTH IT).

Edit: ANY question asked that I can answer I will answer, spoiler tag it though just to be nice to people. Feel free to even denote (outside of the spoiler) which world the spoiler is about (i.e. 1-1 or Boletaria Palace, or 4-1 Shrine of Storms and whathaveyou).

Edit 2: Yes, we needed a third thread. If any game in the last 5 years deserved 3, it's this one.

Alright. I think I've logged enough hours to write my "thing". Inc.

Does this (and now the review) officially qualify f13 as a Demon's Souls fansite now?

WHAT!?

I met Phalanx last night.  I hacked at him for a good while before I decided that was a chump's game.  Currently amassing a stock of firebombs.

I finally got to play again last night after a week and a half break (fucking work).  I thought I had killed Flamelurker, but apparently not.  After a few tries I beat his ass and am now deciding whether I'm going to work on 3-1 or 4-1 next. 

Hurray for 3 days off!

The game came out a month ago. It's the best console game I've ever played. There are some folks in the MMOG forum still talking about things like Darkfall and KMMOGs. Ask yourself, which would you rather have. And if gamers knew what was good for them, DS would be the only game they were talking about anyway for a good few months as their ain't anything else coming out that deserves it more.

Hell. A thread about "The next Blizzard MMOG" reached page two in 20 minutes and you are complaining about Demon's Souls? A game which Blizzard, by the way, could never do. But if they did it, you wouldn't have 3 threads and a review. You'd have hysterical masses founding new religions.

If From Software and Blizzard Entertainment ever worked together on a game, their design philosophies would clash so hard, a rift would be torn in the universe and demon bunnies would fly out of it.

Not complaining.  It actually was enough to finally push me into picking up a PS3 and ordering the game off ebay.

Well, I firebombed the shit out of Phalanx then tupentined his ass a bit and now I'm alive again.  From my brief visit to the burrowers' tunnel and the tower, it won't last.

How do I tell which area is #2, #3, etc?  Am I not looking in the right place or do I just need to know the code?  I think I want to go to 2-1 because I think that is where the other blacksmith is, but taking peeks is hazardous to my health.

They're in order from left to right

    3

2      4

1      5

Oh shit. :awesome_for_real:

Phalanx doesn't require fire to beat. Just kill the minions that make up his body by attacking them from the rear when they fall off the main mass.

You'll admit that firebombs make this go much faster, yes?

Sure. I guess that's the only time they are useful too.

Turpentine makes Phalanx criminally satisfying.

Make a subforum for this, until interest dies off.

I don't see a reason for that unless it gets a US release. Too many people here are afraid to import or don't want to buy a PS3 for an import.

You know what's better? 2-handed spear, turpentine, R2 attack from point-blank range.

/me emerges from 5 solid days playing this game, blinking like a gitmo hostage having the hood taken off.

Multiplayer in this game is just fantastic. I really didn't like the implementation at first for the same reasons others have stated, i.e. the effective inability to play with specific people, but after a week of it I love it. Why? Because it doesn't break the fourth wall. These are other trapped souls you're summoning, you're at the mercy of the Nexus and the deep fog. This game is so harsh you don't even get a compass let alone a map, so if the multiplayer was any different it just wouldn't fit.

I've had some awesome sessions with total strangers who I will never play with again. We've had epic battles against giant demons, tense cat & mouse games with black phantoms (both victorious and not so) and ludicrous clownshoes falling-off-of cliff 30 seconds after summoning 2 blue phantoms moments.

I can safely say that without the online component I wouldn't have made it through my first playthrough. My reactions are crappy and I am, for sure, actually very bad at this game (still haven't managed to beat the tutorial boss!) but it's still possible to make it through with help. Oh and I missed vast amounts of stuff so there's going to be multiple playthoughs, no doubt :)

One word of caution - after your first playthrough the new game+ is HARSH. I've got a semi-decently kitted out, soul level 120ish, katana-wielding, spell-casting fucking ninja and I'm getting 1-shotted in 2-1 and 3-1 on new game+. Oh and I learned how to do backstabs yesterday  :heart:

I should make more use of the online stuff.  I've been invaded by a black phantom once (almost got her!), and summoned a blue phantom once who helped with the 2-1 boss, but otherwise have done 1-1, 1-2, 2-1 (minus the boss), 3-1, and most of 4-1 now on my own.  Slow going at times, and I'm gradually improving (both player skill and character power) but I still die an awful lot.  It remains fun though!

I only killed a black phantom while in blue form (helping someone else). Do you get anything other than sheer satisfaction by killing them? Seemed to me you don't, and that kinda sucks.

Killing a black phantom shifts your character and world tendency towards white.

How many of the f13 regulars have this now?

It's now on my (small) list of "get this when I get a PS3" games.

 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:

Killing a Black Phantom in 3-1, on your own, is the most blood-pumping videogaming experience I had since... not even sure! First Player Killer in UO? 10 years!

To answer myself, I got 1983 souls out of this fucker so apparently they reward you somehow. Just wonder how are they calculated or if I only got what he was carrying. That would be dumb, cause as in pure UO/Shadowbane style you should only pay attention to spend all your souls before going out on a Black (Phantom) Op to avoid any consequence on a failed world invasion.

Ah, a silly question I always forget to ask: how do you see what tendency you have? I know there's a screen for it but the "world stones" there look like a mixture of white and black and can't really figure out how they are supposed to look when they get blacker or whiter. I guess I am still completely neutral but the appearance of the stones is still confusing.

And seriously, this game is unbelievable. It doesn't stop. Me and the son are what, 40 hours in? Still loving it as if it was the first hour. Aware of having only scratched the surface and completely intoxicated with the lonely ghastly feeling of this unique piece of a multiplayer game.

Seriously, if you miss this one then you deserve all the Darkfalls in the world.


EDIT: And this is not in the thread I wanted it to be.

Were you invaded or was it the one in front of the church? If so, that one always spawns (like the two down in 2-2) so that you get a black eye stone.

I was invaded. I got an invasion notification (it was just right after I got in, first room, seriously it was basically on the nexus stone) and this numbnut had a name. It really looked an played like an idiot, not even the slightest hint of artificial intelligence.



What? Down where?!

You check the wiki (http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/)  :awesome_for_real:

Basically you can't really tell unless you are pure black or pure white, then it'll be obvious on the tendency screen. If you've got the Demonbrand and Soulbrand swords then their bonuses change with your tendency but you won't have them until quite late in the game.

Place: 3-1
The gaffe: I killed liar
Cause: Son was enraging me exactly to that purpose.

Question: How bad is it? What did I lost forever?

Who is liar? What?

You mean the zombie?

You have to kill him. You can't beat the boss until you do.

Seriously?!

But was I supposed to talk with him before the kill or anything? A sign on the ground (a fake, I guess) said "good guy" and he didn't really aggroed me. He was standing by some magical yellow circle or something when I landed my shameful pre-emptive strike. When he died in 2 shots, without never presenting a threat, I felt empty and wrong.

You're supposed to.

And yes, you have to kill him to finish the level (and before you kill the Doll).

I told schild the day after I started playing that I thought soul arrow was a bit OP, and he told me to play through more of the game before I said that.  Having gone through over half of the areas now, I feel the need to correct the statement, by saying that ranged attacks in general are OP.  Having fully upgraded my bow to a lava bow, I was able to breeze through 4-2 just now, taking maybe two or three hits total in the process.  I can snipe the reaper in the first room in three shots for an easy 5000 souls (counting his shadowmen who also die when you kill him) using just the cheap 5 or 10 soul cost arrows with zero risk to myself.  Even the boss never even got close to hitting me (of course it helps that the guy is blind).  The whole area is pretty trivial for me to farm now for huge amounts of souls (that more than offset the price of the arrows.

Now I realize that I'm using one of the more powerful weapons in the game (although it's pretty easy to get), but even with some of the best melee weapons you're still putting yourself at some risk.  I could do a lot of the same stuff with a weaker bow, it would just take more time.  I also understand that ranged attacks aren't viable in every situation (small areas for instance), but for the most part it seems pretty imbalanced compared to melee.

This is the preferred method of grinding in the game. Your first time through, all ranged attacks are pretty great - though they suck for some situations. Your second time through the game (NG+) is an explorative journey of self-discovery on realizing you used ranged as a crutch for far too long. Lava bow is, in fact, awesome.

I still melee a lot in most levels, simply because it's a lot more fun than standing back sniping.  4-2 is fucking hell on earth for trying to melee though.

Funny because the only thing I range in 4-2 is the first reaper, and the first group of white skeletons.

Also, the most underused ability in the game is Demon's Prank.

I snipe the reaper and the skeletons.  Either switch to fire arrows or soul light for the gold skeletons.  Shoot the purple eyed shadowmen at medium distance, run down the stairs and shoot the second reaper who tends to fall off the cliff after the first or second shot. Poison gas the purple shadowman and the last reaper.  Melee or shoot the slugs.  The second reaper is the only place I tend to get hit because the shadowmen can respawn so fast.

Manipulating AI behavior instead of beating the shit out of them seems to be a low priority for most players.

I think I've fucked up 1-3 somehow. Cleared it and defeated the boss, but don't seem to have got the Iron Key from one of the Fat Ministers, which means I can't free Biorr nor get to Yuria. I've got the Ministers Hat but not the key! No idea how that happened but I'm pissed off about it, especially so since I started this playthrough specifically to try and access more of the content and NPCs than I did before mistakenly ending my first game.

NPCs that drop crucial items should respawn!

I read somewhere here that the game ends abruptly and without notice, and I guess it means you are forced to start a NG+ without being able to roam freely and go back to old maps to clear up left behind bosses and secrets.

Is that so?

If yes, could you please me WHAT NOT TO DO/KILL to finish the game? What's the last boss/area I shouldn't clear if I don't want to finish it and be forced to a restart?

Yes, entirely true.

After defeating the last boss in Boletarian Palace (False King) do not talk to the Maiden in Black. That ends the game.

I wouldn't say the game ends abruptly, but talking to the maiden in black, without giving you an option, initiates the end of the game.

Should I pretty much assume that farming 4-3 with the one-hit manta kill sword is the fastest way to farm souls?  Also, is the a recommend level to get to before starting New Game +?

Yes. It's also worth going pure black and wearing the ring of avarice (buy it from the opera singer in 3-1). Also, if you're a girl char, wear the silver bracelet too.


I'm 87. I feel underpowered. Hence why I'm playing a second character all the way through. I wouldn't go into NG+ until you kill old King Doran though.

You can find a ring of avarice in 3-2 (cheaper than paying 50000 to the vendor).

Think I'm at 85 or 86 right now.  Killed Doran already.  Beat every part of area's 2-5, and the blue dragon in 1-4.  Might farm 4-3 until around 90 or so and then and then finish up 1-4.

I'm probably going to stay in the original game on my main and just not finish at all to prepare for the inevitable DLC.

That's a really good idea.

About DLC. How will we be supposed to download it since the game is not released in NA and EU? I doubt our PSNs will ever put up DLC for unreleased games. I hope I am wrong, but hurrr....

I made a JP account waaaay back... can't remember the email/passwd so I guess I'll have to make another one when the DLC hits.  Because I'm sure I'll need it.

I have read the Acquiring Thread also and I think many of you are using Ranged a whole lot.  Most of the time I melee, except versus those mindflayers in the prison.  They get the arrow treatment because they are fuckers with that area attack, plus dodging on those balconies is sketchy.

Backstabbing the miners in 2-1, yeah that is the way to go.  I had a hard time starting out as a Thief but I'm vastly better now.  Note that if you don't want to use that damned Mailbreaker on them, you can do a thrust with the dagger if you roll toward them.  I mince all those lizards with a roll-thrust-roll back.  Actually you can thrust with the dagger just my moving forward when attacking, but the roll is super.  For times when thrusting sucks, like when you need to be quick, the dagger's normal slash attack is fantastically quick.  Like leaping-wolf quick.

I really should learn how to parry. :awesome_for_real:

Backstabbing with a halberd is so much more satisfying than using a puny dagger, even if it likely does less damage  :drill:

Wow, how do you get your foot to them to kick them off of your blade?! :awesome_for_real:

Backstabbing with a scimitar, I do far less damage than with a dagger.

I can't even drop a lizardman in a single backstab with the halberd, but damned if it isn't satisfying.  The hit immediately after kills them, and still doesn't trigger the swarm anyhow.

Winged spear is overpowered.

I didn't do 2-1/2-2 until I upgraded to the scraping spear on my first character. I did 3 and 4 before it in fact.

2-1 was a very intimidating place until I figured out the thrusting bit.  Currently a roll-stab hits for 81 with 20 Dex and Dagger +7.  Also they often don't notice me murdering their fellows if I backstab.  Problem is they give 3 or 4 souls, since they are so easy.  Really, you use a thrust attack and it's easy, minus fat officials and ambushes in ridiculously-narrow corridors.

I also ghetto-farm the three jerks at the top of the tower where you first have to come in since they are ~630 souls for just a bit of dodgery/Soul Arrow.  For some reason the two lizards give 32 and 36 souls instead of 3 or 4 like the others below.  I read a note saying the official is weak to fire, but I don't fell like bothering with switching to spell that probably has less range.  Nor do I feel like wasting turp on him.

Finished 2-1 through 2-3 on New Game+ today (pushing the area into Pure White tendency and picking up Keel Smasher in the process).  Tried to cheese Flamelurker a bit.  There's a spot I've found that he tends to get caught on a little bit allowing me to attack him from a distance.  The drawback is that he'll sometimes do a side jump that gets him unstuck, and then a quick charge and he's right on top of me.  Sometimes he'll get stuck for a good while before he does that, and sometimes he'll do it after only one or two hits on him.

I was looking to beat him in body form (pushes the area closer to white than if you just kill a boss while you're in soul form), so when his health was really low, I used a stone to revive.  Almost immediately after, he did his little side leap and charge.  I was at full health (and had one time revive up), but it still scared the shit out of me since it still would just take a couple small fuck ups to get killed, and dying in body form would push the area closer to neutral.  Managed to roll away and hit him a couple times though to finish him off.  Turned in his soul to the blacksmith and was finally able to get North Regalia forged (which kicks ass).

North Regalia is what people switched to post-patch for PK-ing. It's pretty much the last totally OP pieces of equipment. So, yea, it kicks ass.

New Game+ hasn't been that bad so far (started it at around lv. 103 I think).  In fact in some ways it's a lot easier.  Having stuff like One Time Revive from the get go has made a lot of encounters a breeze.  I find myself going through a lot more arrows and spice than before, but farming souls to buy them with is trivial.  The only boss fight I'm really not looking forward to is the Maneaters.

I got that knight who tries to kill you in the nexus and stol his gloo, armour. Well. here's my gripe with the game. I am deep down in 4.x and as a knight I am still wearing the same armour and shield I got at level 1. Fluted is apparently the best armour I could find so far. Now I am sure better stuff will come, and loot is not the point of this game. Still, the same identical armour from level one and a shield I got in 1-2? cheap!

And the point is.. gloom armour, this super cool looking dark and evil thing I got.. it has very good resistances against poison, bleeding and all. But physical defenses? Worse than fluted starting one. Sad!

EDIT: And my son is asking the experts among you why that knight is not appearing in his game. He saved him from the elevator/cage in 3-2 (methinks) but he's nowhere in the Nexus to be found in his game. We are both withish tendency but not pure yet.

I'd assume the point of the gloom armor is that at a high soul level you will have a naturally-high physical resistance.  I have found some armor but it's got tradeoffs against the black armor I started with (thief) that I don't care for.

I had the same problem with Ostrava of Boletaria, the dude that shows up in several places in world 1.  On my first character I saved him in 1-1 and then never seen him again.  Kinda sucks because there doesn't seem to be any other way to get the Mausoleum key.  All the rest of my characters just kill him in 1-1 rather then take any risks.  Sucks.

I saved Ostrava and found the key in a crate outside the courtyard where he was.  Smashy-smashy!

Has he beaten the boss yet?

That Knight.

Uhm...


Oh, and killed Patches today because I felt it was a good idea after the dark knight incident. How much did I gimped myself?

Some of these NPCs can get killed quite easily accidentally. He may have just fallen off the edge where his cage was or something. he's no big deal really, all you get is the Gloom Armour from him, and I've yet to have a char with high enough stats to wear it and still be able to dodge.


Not at all. He sells cheap arrows and a ring that you easily get elsewhere, that's it.

So I have the full game cleared except the boss of 1-4. My character is magicless except for Hide, and uses a Uchigatana +8 and the Dark Steel Shield, with the Lava Bow.

Currently soul level 71.

I think I am going to try and push all the zones in to pure black to get the extra items and the primal demons and crap.

Too bad you aren't using Magic, the Beast Talisman from 2-2 pure black is totally worth it (and awesome).

I have my first character who does us magic, and he is currently black. Going to try and get the Beast Talisman with him, he is soul level 60. I'm trying to decide what weapon I should go for on him. Right now he uses a Dragon Longsword +3 and a Longsword +5. I want to get one of the big swords for him, but I messed up on world 2 and cant get the keel. Also, Faith and Luck are really low, so I think Meat Cleaver and Blueblood are both out of the question. I could go for the Large Sword of Moonlight, but really his best stat is STR at like 32. Magic is at 20.

Well, I finally cleared Phalanx after about fifty hours played......... :why_so_serious:

Consoles hate me.  Good game.

It took you 50 hours to kill... the first boss?

Don't hate the player... hate the fact that I don't have this game yet.

Okay, so a bit of exaggeration, but it did take a while. 

A couple of thoughts so far:

1.  I can see this game getting very grindy.  Maybe not, but it does seem possible.

2.  Soul arrow is almost 100% necessary. 

Is not.  My girlfriend is just about to finish the game with a character with zero magic memorization slots.  She does however use a bow a fair amount, but she's mostly melee based (spear/tower shield). 

Don't make me pull out a "you're getting beaten by a girl".

Nothing is a true necessity in this game and that is what makes it GRRRREAT.

Sure, you can do better with certain weapons against certain enemies or boss, but getting better, smarter and faster does better than any weapon.

That said, the most useful skill in the game is the Summon and the Blue Stone. If anything is mandatory, that is multiplaying.

Soul Arrow is a 100% necessity for..........Ghost :grin:

I'm not a console gamer typically.  Seriously, ranged of any kind makes this game about a thousand times easier.  My barbarian just sucks.  It is like a melee glass cannon.

I started with a pure melee guy, and the first level was brutally hard for me. When I picked up Soul Arrow I was amazed how much easier it was. Then on my second guy, I bypassed magic altogether and went with bows. Wow, they are way better that Soul Arrow.

The game actually gets easier as you figure out the play style needed and get more acquainted with it. I probably had more trouble with the first level than any other. Keep at it man.

Hardest thing for me was the 2-2 boss.  Mind you I haven't went back to him on another char now that I have much more experience with the game.  A lot of the later bosses seem really weak and totally killable the first time you meet them.

The bosses that gave me the most trouble was Tower Knight and Maneater. I didnt have much problems with Flamelurker, but I managed to kind of cheese him by getting him stuck behind some of the bones.

Any recommendations for the blue eyed Knights?  Those seem to be the guys that are kicking my ass the most.

Timing. Their main damaging attacks are very slow with an obvious wind-up, just dodge them then stab them in the back. When you're out of range or in a position where they won't hit you then lower your shield to speed stamina recovery. Parry can work very well with them too but your timing has to be impeccable.

Lock-on is not always a good idea either - you want to roll to dodge their attacks so that you end up behind them, which is much easier to do when not locked-on.

And don't attack him when he's walking slowly with his shield up. He'll parry and cut you to your doom. Wait for him doing the first move.

The trickiest part when I was a weakling for me was in 1-2, with two blue-eyed knights at the end of a bridge burned to crisps by a dragon and protected by archers. A good tactic there is to slowly lure them on the bridge, and as soon as you hear the dragon wings flapping UNLOCK target and run back towards the archers: blue eyed knight hot steak.

I'd add that you would want to use a thrust attack or some sort versus armored enemies.  He's a bitch due to his arcing attacks and you have to watch it when dodging.  I haven't decided if the one with the shield is worse than the one with the claymore or not.  The one with the shield is a pain in the ass to damage, but the one with the claymore will fuck your shit very quickly.

Be patient. Watch their attack animations. They have 4 basic attacks:

1) Swing, Swing. Pause.
2) GRRRRAAARRGGG SWING. Pause.
3) Charge attack.
4) Shield swipe.

They sometimes chain them together. The one you have to watch out for is the charge attack quickly followed by pattern 1. I use a bate method. I move in close, then back out. Trying to bate him to do attack 1 or 2. After he does it, you can usually get off two hits before rolling away. When you see him stop to heal, smack him quickly if you can.

Patience is the best tactic on these guys. Also, try to keep your stamina full and your shield up.

Alternately, if you're high strength and two handing a spear or halberd, or maybe a great sword, you can do what I did and instead be super aggressive by doing a running charge in to break his block and just hammering him down into oblivion.  If you're strong enough, you'll kill him on your last hit as you run out of stamina, before he has a chance to recover.

Learn to watch those guys and their slow movements. The enemies  you face later will be ten times worse in speed and wind-up time, so much so when you come back to this area these blue eyed knights will seem trivial.

The third soul arrow will break their guard. CHEESE.

Yeah, with soul arrow they are easy mode.  Not too bad with ranged either.  Pure melee they are tough.

I just got this in and played it for a few hours. So far, the aspect I am most liking is the Resident Evil/Silent Hill effect. I was playing through 3-1 in total darkness and the place just oozes creepiness between the zombies, the background noises (zombie lurches/SAAAVE MEEE), and the I-don't-even-know-whats that can paralyze you then OMNOMNOM.

One thing I wish is if it could at least give me "you should probably be around this soul level to try this area, unless you're very good" since I feel like I'm just picking an area out of a hat (2-2, 3-1, 4-1, ??) and seeing if I can beat it.

Freedom of choice is a good thing at times. There's plenty of handholding games, hats off to the few that require decisions.
Other than that, it's pretty much 1 = easier and 4 = harder. Wet your feet, try for yourself and be independent!

How do I take the weapon in 2-3, Dragon God room, behind the rubble? Wiki says you need pure white soul. Since it's not so easy to understand your soul degree of whiteness, I assumed I had pure white as the monumental kid gave me the friend's ring, something the wiki says is only awarded to pure whiters. Then, I get into the Dragon God room and the rubble is still there and the sword still impossible to get. Ideas, so we can even correct the wiki eventually?

If you logged out in the Nexus, your tendency got reset.

Known bug. Sucks. Never log out in the nexus.

Uhm, no log out. I took the friend ring and IMMEDIATELY went to the Dragon God and rubble is still there. So either you don't need pure white to get the friend ring, or pure white is not the only thing you need to clear the rubble.

Are you supposed to just get in the room, take a left and the rubble is not there, or pure white opens a DIFFERENT path to that sword?

What? you get the friend ring from the Monumental when you, yourself, as a character, are pure white. Character Tendency and World Tendency are two different things. Dude, wiki, read the world tendency part.

Oh fuck. My non-English speaking brain must have skipped the difference between character and world tendency. Wiki or not, can't believe how confusing this is especially by looking at the in game screen and the known bug you are mentioning.

Back to the wiki, which I thought I read too many times.

Yeah, schild is correct, you get the friend ring for being pure white character, and the keel smasher for having pure white world. That is one of the two aspects that I think they could have done better. The  tendency is confusing, and has a "tendency" (pun intended) to reset its self. I havent logged out in the nexus since I found out about that. Last night when I logged in (in 1-1) on one of my characters, it had reset ALL worlds to neutral. Also, I found that when I got world 5 to white tendency, it carried over to all my other characters, although, only world 5, no others.

Also, on my main guy, I used the death trick to bring world 2 down to pure black tendency. I was going for one of the Black Phantoms, and I accidently fell off a ledge. When I respawned the world had reset its self to neutral.

Oh yeah, and Ostrava is missing on one of my characters, so I cant get the key.  :x

Well, I'm sure it was the pep talk, but I ran through to beat Phalanx on my first try with a wanderer tonight, including all three blue knights.  Or maybe it was the rum  :why_so_serious:

I love my Wanderer, he is my highest level character. Soul level 90ish. Wields a +10 Uchigatana and the Dark steel shield, with the Lava Bow.

Is it me or the False King sucks your levels and stats away?

Stinks, especially when you can't equip some weaponry anymore after the treatment.
Is there some sort of a known tactics/trick to prevent that?

We (me and the son) completed the game today.

And we already have a little digital hole in our lives.
This game is SO GOOD that it's hard to explain to whoever didn't play it.

First, it's the first game that really sucked my son in, since forever.
Second, it's the first game where the action, the combat, is so good and satisfying that you are sad it's over and can't wait to start again in NG+. Loot, exploration, levels. They arenothing compared to the pure experience of just fighting.

It'll take a while to wash away the feeling of what DS'S has been, and as I said elsewhere, swords will never be the same again.

A few complaints:

1) I hoped NG+ could do a little more than just giving you the same identical game with better equipment. Actually, so far it is even easier than our first run through the game. Does it has anything new? No new equipment, no new bosses, I don't think it has any new Black Phantom either, as those are just tied to world tendency. So well, I am glad the game let you go on after the ending, and yes fighting is better than achievements, but it would have been nice to have something, anything new other than North Regalia after a restart.

2) Too many bosses can't realize you are arrowing them to death, or just can't react. First few that comes to my mind: Armor Spider, Leechmonger, Maiden Astraea, the huge dragon in 1-4. All those bosses can be sniped with a basic bow and basic arrow without them being able to lay a finger on you. The cheater who hides in my son easily found those exploits and while he was all happy about it I felt a bit sad. My favourite boss fights have been Phalanx and Flamelurker. After that, it all became too easy with exploits or summoned Blue Phantoms able to destroy them in thre hits or something.


But the point of this post is not complaining.
Demon's Souls is over for us, and it has been the best videogaming experience I had in such a long time. And the best ever for my 14 son. And we'll keep coming back there, just to smash the Brand on the ground, or to have a fair fight with the three red knights in 1-3, or hoping for a cool one with a daring human Black Phantom. Oh, it would have been silly, but how much I would have loved an "arena" option, that quickly pairs you with a random someone for a quick duel! Better than Soul Calibur.

But it's over. Sadly, it is. And now that swords are forever different, there's hoping for a Demon's Souls 2. Or else, eternal sadness.

Something that bothers me more and more as I play is how good the Cling Ring is.  You spend so much time in Soul Form and that ring is pretty much 100% required.  Lots of other cool rings but it's always Cling + 1.

Other then that gripe I agree this game is wicked.

The cling ring is the only real set of training wheels in the game. I didn't even carry it on my third character.

I agree that NG+ is a little disappointing in that respect, but I have been trying to get the hard upgrades and stuff and trying out new weapons. Also, I have had an absolute blast doing coop and fighting off Black Phantoms. Although on my alt who I play as a Black Phantom, I suck. I think I have 2 kills and about 30 losses. I dont think he is built to be a good Black Phantom.

If you finish the game with the "evil" ending, you can get a Redeye Stone. This puts a red message on the ground, and allows a person to summon you as a black phantom so you can PVP with them. I am planning on grabbing this at the end of NG+.

I'll get to that point but right now I've past 'Man this ring is awesome' and landed on 'I wish I could mix and match some of the these other rings but some shit can one shot me if I do'.  The fact that I didn't reach that point until I'm about to cap off a second character is why I see it as an issue.  If it took say 3/4 of your first game I'd be more on board with that kind of reasoning.

I was trying to pay attention to world tendency this go round and pure white world tendency is a bitch.  Lots of ways to force a retry in NG+.  Are there seriously no repeatable white world hits other then capping someone who invades your game?

From the Wiki: http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/world-tendency

I did my homeworks and I'd say that unless you knew it beforehand, and because of that played very carefully and left a world boss alive, you can't really go back to white world tendency unless you kill some invading player.
That's why now I am spending hours reading a book while idling at the beginning of Stonefang Tunnels waiting for some invaders to bring me my white hits.

No luck so far.

That guide is what I was following, just sorta spaced out on the first world I tried it on and rezzed part way through a run so it's totally my fault.  It's funny, I stood around farming spiderstone waiting for an invader last night too but after about 45 minutes gave up on it.  Next character or NG+ for me, too much fun doing other shit.

What's your soul level? Maybe we could invade me and then I can invade you in return.

I have a SL45 Mage, 80 Blueblood, and 98 Wanderer. Any of those work?

Mmmmmm the more I think of it, the least I think it is doable. Like, if I try to invade from Stonefang, there's no way I can choose to end up in your world. I'll be randomly threw in anyone else playing there in that level range.

We should try it, by arranging a time and a date. What's the name of your 80 and 90? I am Lefteye by the way.

My 80 is Vaunt, and my 90 is Morv. Although I just thought of something. I think they have a block in place to stop just this kind of thing. Once you invade some one, you dont seem to be able to invade them again. If I invade someone, and then go back to my world, if I try to invade again, I often get Break in Failed, cause nothing in my level range.

Maybe if I invaded, and then you zoned to the nexus and back it would reset the invade timers.

That is something worth a try. I am heading out in like 3 minutes, otherwise some testing right now would have been nice. What about later today, 4 hours and 30 minutes from now? Are we friends on PSNetwork? I am falconeer there, easy to find. Once logged in should be easy to chat with the PS3 messenger.

I am at work for the next 6ish hours or so.

The more I play the game, the less I like it. Just too difficult for me. After a zillion tries still can't be the Maneaters. Said to hell with and went to 4-1, those rolling knights were just as bad. If they just used checkpoints instead of starting over I might keep going. But having to replay the same areas over and over again, having to go back to easy areas and farm souls to buy potions, ...it's all just too repetitive for me.

Oh, and the way corpses have no weight and just get caught around your feet like stray newspaper just bugs me.

Honestly, you shouldnt play the levels in order. Generally the x-1 are the easy ones. As for the rolling knights. They are simple. Just block their roll and if a side swing, block that and then attack. If its the overhead chop, back out of range and then move forward to attack after they miss you. If you are fining a level to hard, go to a different one until you get a few more soul levels.

Also, I feel your pain on Maneater. That was the boss that gave me the most problems also.

What type of character are you playing?

4-1 is a tough level in my opinion. If you tackle that too soon you are going to have a hard time.
I was there at soul level 40 or something and it wasn't easy at all.

Better do something else before you are confident and geared up.

Grinding for potions means you have to train harder, cause soon you won't need them anymore other than for boss battles, and not because your character gets stronger but because YOU will get better. Change your approach to enemies, change your style, change your weapon maybe. All weapons are good, they just have different characteristics so you could be more confident with something else, not to mention certain enemies are better faced with certain weapons.

If it isn't for you it isn't for you. But this is THE game!

It seems like it is a good idea to run through a level multiple times to grind out some soul levels before progressing on. 

I'm pretty sure my review said you (and everyone else) would be a worthless, horrible player (only in more words) the first time through. My second serious business character beat more than half the game without dying. Just to put things in perspective. Your first character is a learning experience, stop sweating it.

Okay, I'm at peace with the fact that I royally suck at this game. 

The packs of dogs are now kicking my butt.

Oh man do they suck the first time through.

And by suck I mean they eat your face.

My char is a magician. But ranged hasn't work too well on 4-1 so far. By the time the knights are in lock-on range (which is annoyingly short), they can usually close the distance faster than cast time. If I'm real quick and get them at max lock-on range then I can one shot them with flamethrower. They're so close their corpse collapses on top of me and hangs off my shoulder like a half-passed out drunken friend. So I've been having to bust out the sword more often.

That mini-boss past the gate was lol, never responded to my ranged attacks. Kinda like those lava beetle thingies. Just stood there and died.

I've finished 1-1,2. 2-1,2. 3-1,2 (except maneater). So it's either 4 or 5 or repeat content and I'm sick of repeating. I'll probably peek at 5 tonight, see what's what.

For me the silver skeletons were one of those monsters that are easier in melee (my character is a royal). I found they only do the BARRELROLL if you're more than a few feet away. When I slapped on the rune sword instead of trying to kill them with magic they were much easier to handle. By the way, 2-3 isn't actually a level, it's just a boss, and 1-3 isn't that hard for a magic type, the toughest part is the three red knights at the end.

4-2 is kicking my ass, those lazer beam guys by the second reaper take like 10 shots to die and rushing to the reaper never works for me either. I haven't tried 5-1, how hard is it? I've done 1-1:3, 2-1:3, 3-1, and 4-1.

Fairly early in 4-1 you can pick up a Crescent Falchon +1 that will make life SOOOOO much easer for you. After you pass the first fog, and run down the tunnel to your left (the one with the trap) you can make another left and there is a duel wielding black skeleton, they are a bitch to kill, after you kill him it will be on a corpse right there. It does magic damage (so bypasses shields) also its damage is modified by your magic skill. I am not kidding when I say this will make your life easer. It will make your character able to melee REALLY well.

Also on that level you can get a large shield, I forget the name, that has a picture on it. Use this shield. Even if it says you dont have the stats for it, that only gimps your "shield attack". You still get all the defensive bonuses from it.

The combination of these two items on 41 will REALLY help. If you are having problems you can send me a message on PSN (name Morfiend) and I can try to bring one of my characters to help you getting them.

These two items will really make a difference, I can not stress this enough.

I usually hit up 5-1 for the blessed mace +1 or whatever it's called or you can even use the standard blunt weapon you get really early in that level.  Unless your melee stats are anemic that weapon type will stagger them and you can 2-3 hit them in sword-and-board configuration.


After you kill the first beam guy there you can do a near 180 and look down and snipe the reaper from there.  Probably need a bow for it though.

Do I snipe from where I kill the beam guy or from where he respawns? I've read the same thing and I do have a bow but I can never find him and usually spend 5 minutes killing the same beam guy over and over looking for him until I get frustrated and just go the long way to get him (usually meeting my demise either to an unblocked beam, or a backstabbing phantom, or the beam+reaper at the end).

After I upped and equipped the Crescent Falchion I can kill the phantoms a lot easier. The contribution it gets from magic stat made it a fair bit better than the Rune Sword I was using.

Thanks for the tips. My main problem is dying in two hits to boss mobs and then having to run back from the beginning, even if the route is shorter once you've cleared the level. God if I ever go thru that gargoyle, bug thing, 2nd gargoyle then phantom mind-flayer on the stairs of 3-2 again I'm gonna go up a tower and start shooting people.

Already got the falchion, but it's not as good as my moon short sword +4, though I've started swapping in the falchion to augment my fragrant ring's mana regen. The black skel went down with two flame spells, never got close to me. Thankfully he was facing the other way, got the drop on him. Once I get some darkmoonstone I have a +6 shortsword waiting to be upgraded. I like the short sword's R2 thrusting attack better than the falchion's slash.

I'd already found out that shield protection doesn't change if you don't have the strength and I'm currently using a soldier's shield+7, requires 10 str, but I have 9. The picture shield is too heavy and will gimp my rolling. (And I didn't like the way it looked.)

Liked the voice acting on the crow, kinda funny.

If they either doubled your hp or halved dmg so you could make more than one mistake this would be a great game, for me at any rate. (And checkpoints.)

It wouldn't be the same game, even a little. in fact, that would make the game too damn easy. The only things I ran into the whole game that could kill me in one attack was: The Red Eye Knight the first time through, the lost hero, and the dragon god. Everyone else leaves you with at LEAST a sliver. Oh, and the phantom in the 5-2 swamp. Even the tutorial boss takes 2 hits to kill your character, and you're not even supposed to beat him.

My Royal gets one-shotted by the 4-2 beam guys if I don't partially block it and I'm in Soul Form. The Reaper, if he magic hits you or melees without it being blocked also one shots me in Soul Form. Penetrator also is a one shot if he connects, falling of course is an instagib, the phantoms in 4-2 if they backstab you is a oneshot.. that's just off the top of my head.

Protection, and Total Protection are godly. Also, you might want to consider pumping some stats in to Vitality if you havent. If you don't like the attack animation of the Falchon type weapons, you should get an Uchigatana and upgrade that to Crescent. The slashing animation is really fast and it has great reach.

I would bypass a shortsword and go for a longsword or even try for a Knight sword. They both have the same animations and speed, but longer reach and damage. But thats just the min-maxer in me.

Crescent is the best weapon for Magic users. Due to having an //A/ rating.

Ok, is 1-3 the pk hangout or something? Had my first invasion there. Beat the guy. Then less than a minute later there was a second invasion. He killed me. Pulled the cable and went into offline mode so I could play.

There's something about Demon's Souls in the new Famitsu but the douchenozzles at NeoGAF are too interested in the new fucking Lunar game (ugh, bleh, remake) to post the DS stuff. I'll post it here when they do.

Yes, because it's a tight map, easy to find players and to avoid getting mobganked along the way.

1-3, 4-1 and 4-2 are the main PK levels. Best thing is to just grab 2 blue phantoms at the start. I find playing 1-3 with 2x blue phantoms to be the most fun level in the game. Thats how I got my character to pure white tendency. The other option is to suicide in the nexus and just play it in soul form.

Yay finally arrived today.  You guys weren't kidding though, it's pretty tough.

Only at first, and only so long as you care about keeping souls.  Once you let that go and concentrate on controlling your character it gets easier.  Not "easy", mind you, just easier.

... that said, I definitely said 5 or 6 times (ok 20), "FUCKING GAME SUCKS!!! WHAT KIND OF SICK SADISTIC FUCK HEAD DESIGNED THIS PEICE OF SHIT!!!!11!1!"

This game is starting to feel a bit like running through Karazahn.  I keep re-running through stuff to get my soul level up a little more to handle the next level.  Grindey. 

http://www.fromsoftware.jp/090522/

So. they're announcing a new game. I would assume if it were Demon's Souls 2, this would be a splash page on the SCEI site. Other possibilities include:

The good:
Chromehounds 2 (5% chance of this happening)
King's Field (5% - this would be a way to make a Demon's Souls like game for other systems as Sony owns the DS IP)
Otogi  3 (1% - This game never sold well anywhere (Xbox Only), I would kill for a next-gen one though)
Something New (14% - The Most exciting Possibility IMO)

The OK (these two are only in the OK category because Enchanted Arms exists as a possibility):
Armored Core: Crappy Subtitle (25%)
Ace Combat: Who Cares Edition (25%)

The Unbelievably Poopy:
Enchanted Arms 2 (25% - Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck bleh)

The Depressing:
Demon's Souls (0% - I just don't see it happening this fast, unfortunately)

Edit: I'm choosing to ignore Tenchu. Every single goddamn release has been a bugfest. If you twist my arm on it though, it's probably an 80% chance of being Tenchu. Also, 0% on Ninja Blade, if you're wondering.

Ace Combat isn't done by From Software.

You're right. Another Centuries Episode. Whoops.

Tips on maneater?

Also, is it possible to aim firestorm at all? It just seems to randomly hit certain areas around me but it doesn't seem like it does it in a homogenous fashion, like it's skipping over a few spots.

Firestorm is randomish, thats to offset its amazing damage. If you have firestorm, Maneater should be no problem. Was for a break in his attacks and run up next to him and blast it and hope you get a good solid hit.

If you are really having trouble, there are a few cheeses you could use.

Just keep running around the brazier thing in the middle of the map and keep spamming the lock button to see if you can get a shot on one of the two Maneaters. With that (and the Lava Bow), it only took me 3 tries since the brazier blocks almost all of their attacks. Just be careful with the rolling, that put me over the edge the first time.

Does anyone have any idea how to get Rydell's Staff without having to go completely black?

If there is one thing I would wish the NA release would bring is the ability to open areas and get all the weapons whether you have a black or white character/world tendency. 

Going pure black is easy, its the pure white stuff thats hard. To go pure black just die in body form, and then use a stone of empherial eye to res and repeat. Usually it takes like 4 deaths to get pure black if you are close to neutral.

Well I finished (yeesh, what stubbornness makes a guy do) gotta say it was a pretty anti-climatic end.  Allant was kicking my ass for the 1,000th time until he did this soul-sucking attack. After that he kinda stood there. Started spamming soul arrow and he went down. Sure he attacked once or twice but nowhere near the constant pressure of earlier runs. Like Flamelurker, victory via lame ai.

After that it was following goth girl down to the beach and inside a giant tree worm where she's like "Hey thanks, we're all done here. You can go now." Credits roll.

Allant bugged out on you. That happened to me also. I reloaded my game cause I didnt want to beat him with a bug.

How much does AddedParams add to a weapon? I've played the game somewhat at a friends and I'm trying to loosely organize myself for when the game comes out here. 

I liked how spears worked and I'm trying to figure out of the winged spear or short spear is better. Everyone says winged spear however if you add the Fatal prefix and use dexterity as your primary stat then it becomes an E/A/-/- rating. Or is it just better to go Sharp with a winged spear for an E/S/-/- raiting? I guess it depends on how good "100 Critical" is.

Also is the paring dagger worth it?

My trouble with the parrying dagger is that I suck. :awesome_for_real:  I'd like to think it was totally awesome but have not made that determination.

Demon's Souls has shown me how old, tired and lazy my gaming skills have become... all while being an incredibly awesome game. I basically picked up a PS3 for this game alone (mostly) based on the frothing here at f13 over it, and although the console itself has not impressed me, this game made it all worth the price of admission.

It's not just you, it's the entire industry. And the current generation of gamers is just terrible.

Any place that fails to give this thing GOTY for at least the PS3 if not overall, is a goddamned untrustworthy site/magazine/anything.

This, of course, assumes Uncharted 2 isn't better than the most amazing game ever.

I'm still interested in this game. But seriously, this sets all my "Oh it's Schild" alarm bells a-ringing, because any general view of games that says "Games suck because gamers aren't GOOD ENOUGH" is just one step away from poopsocking. Tell me it's good even if you don't think your e-peen is so big you can't even walk without falling over.

We're 5 pages into the second thread about it. Frankly, I don't care what alarms anything I say about this game sets off for you.

Also, it wasn't cause and effect. I said AND. The developers are as much at fault as the gamers. If not moreso. Particularly Nintendo.

The industry does not suck because gamers aren't good enough. That's just insane. But games like this getting ignored (which it probably mostly will be by the public at large), is indeed part of the problem.


I've already done that. If anyone here hasn't already bought it, I assume they're waiting for the stateside release. If they're not buying that, oh well. I'm not missing out. Also, it's not even comparable to poopsocking.

This game does indeed make you remember what "hard" games where like in your youth. It will make you want to throw your controller across the room, and at other times scream at your TV or just have to walk away. But know this, its not the game being cheesy, its your fault. The game gives you all the mechanics to succeed, it is completely up to you to execute.

I honestly cant recall the last time a games design came together with the programmers execution to create a masterpiece like Demon's Souls.

As someone who wouldn't fall into the radar of "oh it's schild," I'm quoting this for truth. Just be warned, if you can't handle your own failures and need to blame others...well...this isn't a game for you. However, if you can learn and grow from your mistakes then your improvement at this godly game will be crystal clear.

Plan and simple, this game alone justifies my owning a ps3 and the other great exclusives are all icing at this point.

I was looking for info on what not to mess up as a new player and trying to keep spoilers to a minimum.  I found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG018Yg4kOM) with minor spoilers.  There are two rings not to miss early in the game. 

I likely would have missed both despite one of them being "extremely obvious" (http://www.f13.net/index.php?itemid=802&catid=9#more).  :wink:  I didn't watch the farming tips because I am trying to keep my spoilers to a minimum but I'm guessing they're solid because the player seems capable at the game.

Since NA release is around the corner, I wanted to add some of my findings to the guide/spoiler section:

In spite of what most guides on the net suggest, I found "straight" melee with a bit of bow for ranged attacks to be a very viable option. I somehow made my way through 1-4, got the mausoleum key and took Demonbrand(t?) from Old King Doran. Then I proceeded to get my worlds to pure black tendency for the primeval demons and BP item farming and totally forgot about Demonbrand until I had my char tendency to about 60% white (or whatever killing 3 out of 5 BPs at neutral gets you to), when I picked it up again and never put it down after. I've used it through NG+ for about half the game now, after upgrading to North Regalia, and it absolutely destroys any mob to a degree where no magic/backstab/whatever char I otherwise made even comes close. The big downside is that you have work your char tendency up (or down if you upgrade to North Regalia). I think I killed Flamelurker - which I consider the hardest boss for pure melee - in about 6 hits or so in NG+.

My build is mainly vitality/endurance with about 30 strength (for the heavier shields, although I ended up with the +10 purple flame one after much trial/error), enough magic and faith to use talisman of beasts, luck at a trusty starting value of 7. On this char, I only used Evacuate and Water Veil for magic (Water Veil made Flamelurker a lot easier on my first attempt). I'm using full black leather for PVE with some gloom/old king doran armor pieces mixed in for PVP, and since black leather is so light I have full mobility and dodge radius, which is a huge asset.

I've been invaded many times and usually manage to beat most meleers and mages, the only ones that give me troubles are the very fast and unpredictable dodgers that manage to get behind me to backstab.

Having never played the game before, only seeing the 2min trailer, this:


makes me wonder what I'm getting myself into. 
 

I've only been invaded twice, I lost one and won the other. Losing in pvp is no different than any other death, and you will be quite familiar with the process already. In the end it added a good amount of excitement and broke up the gameplay in a good way.

After trying a few different character types and finally settling down to play through with one, my take on character creation is to make what you want to play and put the time into playing it. As has been stated before, getting familiar with the controls and what you need to do with each mob/scenario is way more important than your stats and abilities. Levels help, and upgrade your weapon.

You only get invaded if you play in body form though, so if you suicide in the Nexus (which is a really good thing to do on a regular basis, i.e. after every boss kill, for your first playthrough - you get a damage bonus in soul form, and that is worth a lot more than the +25% HP you have in body form). Also, there are level ranges where this happens more often than others. 50-60 was very frequented, 61-99 not so much, now after 100 I'm seeing them again. AFAIK, the server matches you for people +/-10 levels around your level.

You also usually get a fair shot at the invader, because the game warns you the moment one of them intrudes, and they are visible as black phantoms (and also very noticeable by the way they are moving around - once you see the game mobs that'll make a lot of sense  :awesome_for_real:).

I generally play offline mode unless I am looking for a fight.  I get too many kiters which really pisses the shit out of me. 

Some suggestions for noobs, after getting through most of the game:

1.  Learn to melee-  I suggest rolling up a toon as a melee spec and running up a few levels just for practice even if you don't want to do melee permanently.  You will die a lot if you don't understand the mechanics and having the ability to do some extra damage is nice for learning.
2.  Magic or ranged is very powerful-  pick up bow or enough magic to get at least soul arrow.  Some things are just too irritating to kill with melee.  Also, bow is better than crossbow and even magic in some instances because you can zoom to snipe. 
3.  Try to kill all bosses in body form.  It will help you get your white world tendency, which is hard to get. 
4.  Tower Knight is really tough.  The only other boss that rivals this one, in my opinion, is Maneater and Allant.  The others are pretty much super easy.  So don't get down. 

Question!

The wiki is vague about this, can you have Total Protection and One Time Revive active at the same time?

Also Amazon for some reason won't let me pre-order to Australia. Do I have to wait until its out? Is there anywhere else to pre-order it?

No.


Not as hard anymore since helping other people kill bosses helps your world tendency go white, as does killing invaders, etc.

I have found that I hardly get invaded unless I'm in Shrine of Sorrows.

Tower Knight is easy enough with a bow... unless you run out of arrows. :oh_i_see:

And even easier with Soul Arrow :)

Tower Knight is the one surrounded by all the archers? If so I found him extremely easy...

AFAIK (at least according to the wiki and my observations), with 1.04 it makes no difference whether you are in body or soul form when killing a boss, it always shifts WT to white. But dying in body form in a world will shift that world to black, so that's why I always recommend playing them in soul form. Plus, you get a damage bonus in soul form.

[complicated paragraph with lots of ... tendency references following]

The safest method to get guaranteed white world tendency is the one described in the wiki. Leave at least one boss alive in that world. Gather about 5-7 ephemeral stones, spam suicide/resurrect in the world (not in the Nexus!) and zone to Nexus to check the tendency. Once it gets to pure black - which you can confirm by looking for the black phantom NPC which is usually close to to some archstone - kill the black phantom NPC and the primeval demon without zoning back to the Nexus. It is crucial to not zone back to the Nexus because killing only one of those will make your world tendency shift +3 to white and the other would despawn once you zone back (world tendency is only updated when you zone to Nexus, this is why killing one for +3 and the other for +3 without zoning back is possible for a +6 shift to white). Then, make your way to the boss and kill it, and you will end up with  pure white. You can zone back to Nexus before the boss battle, but, again, not between the BP NPC and the primeval. I've done it this way about 15 times so far and it has always worked.

Tower Knight is very easy with ranged (as are all the bosses).  I think it is beneficial to learn to melee him though.  He is definitely one of the tougher bosses to melee, particularly on the first time or so going against him.

Tower Knight is really tough the first few times you go against him if you are pure melee as I was. I picked up soul arrow and it was cake.

The one boss that gave me a ton of trouble was Maneater. I think I tried him maybe 30 times before I got the kill.