f13.net

I know that Schild generally despises self help threads but what the heck ;-)

A few weeks ago I accidentally stumbled upon material about ADHD, its symptoms, the issues people with ADHD have to deal with and especially what changes when people with ADHD become adults.

It has been a small revelation to me because the symptons associated with the disorder describe how I feel in my daily life and kind of explain a lot of the psychological issues I deal with every day. On the other hand I'am not really sure about whether or not I have it because some of the descriptions don't really fit to me.

Since the f13 crowd is such a diverse group of people from all kinds of backgrounds I wanted to ask if anybody has any experience either dealing with ADHD or though friends or family that have it and could offer at least some advice or share the experience.

Before you answer with 'don't ask people on the internets for professional advice on medical or psychological matters' I am also actively looking into professional help and advice on the matter at the moment so don't worry about that.

If you feel that that kind of discussion is really inappropriate feel free to den it.

See a doctor or a shrink and they'll give you wonderful pills that will allow you to be a super worker.

They also make you a god if you play FPSes.

Atomoxetine hydrochloride - Strattera.  NEW in 2003 - First demonstrated effective in both adults and children

See a psychiatrist for a diagnosis.  I've known MANY people in medicine with ADD/ADHD.  It's really not all that uncommon. 

Is strattera as much fun as ritalin?

Also, I'm still in the camp that doesn't really buy adult add/adhd, but I'm pretty much a dick about it.

Edit: Strattera is a non-stimulant? Comeon now, why would ANYONE take that over ritalin?


Is that because it's pooly diagnosed and people are prone to being flighty can't-focus yutzes?

The two drugs have different MoAs. 

ADD/ADHD is all about a chemical lack of stimulation of certain centers of the brain responsible for focus.  It's nothing you can choose not to have, unless you have the magical ability to change your brain biochemistry by thinking about it. 

To some degree.  Many people do see pharmacologic management as a good and useful thing.  You can do double blind studies to demonstrate this. 

I see you've found me out. You'll pay for this!


In this case, I would even question a double-blind, simply because if someone thinks they're supposed to focus they probably will. I was misdiagnosed when I was younger. There's a good reason I'm completely wary of it even being a real disease/disorder.

Well... you can manage ADD symptoms by behavioral modification, but this doesn't treat the chemical/physiological cause.  It's a coping mechanism.

Good science uses large sample sizes to overcome outliers like yourself.

When was the last time any pharmaceutical company's studies could be classified as good science and not profit-driven. How many drugs are on the market for shit they've made up because people are inherently flawed?

Edit: I'm not trying to be mean, I just throw ADHD medicine under the same umbrella as acupuncture. Read: Bullshit. I mean, I LOVE adhd medicine, it would make ANYONE feel super awesome and super focused (unless they were allergic), but the idea that anyone needs it is just, well, weird to me.

ACK!

ADHD is caused by a lack of neurotransmitter in a synaptic cleft of select neurons.  This is testable.  Academic neuroscientists around the world (unaffiliated with pharmaceutical companies) confirm this. 

This is very different from chiropractic or accupuncture. 

Is it testable via a chemical/blood/some other physical test or is it testable by a bunch of shitty questions on a piece of paper administered by your local doc? Because if it's the former, I'd like to know what the fuck the doctors of the world are doing with our children.

It is testable.  In animals you look at neurotransmitter levels in the presence and absence of agent, etc.

Is it overprescribed.  You bet.  Is ADD overdiagnosed?  You bet.

Is ADD/ADHD a real disorder, yes!  Do as many people have it as get prescriptions for it, decidedly not.


EDIT: FOR THE RECORD... my expertise is in Cancer and infectious disease.  The above information is all my OPINION and should be taken as such.

OK true story...

My youngest son has ADHD and takes something called "concerta" which is a branded ritalin... Before letting him take it starting a few years ago I researched it and found that it is almost 99% identical to Cocaine!  :ye_gods:

Needless to say I had a long talk with the Dr who convinced me that differences were enough and that my son needed it. Now keep in mind that I was pretty hardcore into the camp, that this "syndrome" was invented and that since it did not exist when I was a kid and we "did ok" that my son did not need it.

To make a long story short, it has done wonders for him in school but that is not the point of my post. I actually took one myself one time and all I can is DAMN! I was so focused at work I considered going to a Dr.  :grin:

However I thought better of it as that would be a bad example to set for my kids, but I can imagine I would finally be able to kick my sons ass (other son) in Gears of War and Halo.  :oh_i_see:

The number of adults addicted to concerta and ritalin, particularly among soccer moms with multiple kids, is always on the rise. I, myself, would have no problems having an endless supply.

Hook a brotha up.

I need some chemical give-a-fuck.

Here's something I should have mentioned earlier: Ask yourself why an amphetamine would be used as the treatment for a hyperactivity disorder.  It's all about the stimulation of a focal center. 

Hope I helped a little.

I've considered getting some pharma help, I've read a lot on the subject. I'm really really ADHD, though I've built a lot of coping structures. Having the chemical imbalance + being extremely right-brained is difficult, but there are a lot of downsides to the pharma solution, too. You do lose some of your amazing abilities that are also the things that make life so very difficult. Dunno, kinda want to try it out and see how much of the beneficial side I lose vs how much I gain by calming down and focusing.

Some of my band's longest opuses were written while my singer (also very right-brained and more adhd than me) were under the influence of amphetamines, the fact that we were able to concentrate on a single task for hours was shocking, and we just thought that was what amphetamines did for you.

Really interesting reading on the subject, and I was able to refine a few of my coping mechanisms, but they take so much out of me and slip away very easily.

The best music was all written under the influence of mind-altering drugs. Might be why music these days seems to suck compared to the 60's and 70's.  :grin:

Can you test for that without any invasive action?

In humans, not that I'm aware of.  Treatment of neurochemical disorders is very much a trial-and-error or titration sort of affair.

It was probably 1.5 or 2 years ago that I figured out I have all of the symptoms of ADHD except for the hyperactivity part.  I haven't gone to be diagnosed even though I think meds would help, but considering my relatively awesome mental health this year, I might do it now.  The interesting thing is that simply being aware of it has helped me tremendously; instead of fighting against myself by trying to be like Everyone Else, I go with my strengths and compensate for my weaknesses.  This has also greatly reduced my overall stress.

I'm still pretty damned disorganized and cannot do more than one thing at a time.

Are you trying to imply, in any sort of way, that Musicians these days somehow do less drugs than they use to?

Sometimes it takes me a whole day to start with a task that I don't like doing even though it might only take a few minutes to do. I constantly fight against myself, get totally stressed out, frustrated and even depressed that I fail to do something really fucking simple or that I take hours for simple tasks.

I always berate myself for being lazy or stupid or forgetting things and at the end of the day I am strung out from constantly fighting with myself.

I never told anybody because I was really ashamed about that. How do you tell somebody 'Hey today it took me 4 hours to write a fucking e-mail'.

So as silly as that may sound I really hope that my intuition is right because that at least would explain things and at the same time I am really really cautious because maybe I just want it to be just so that I have an explanation.

Sounds weird, eh?

Man, you just sound stressed out.

Maybe. I don't know.

But I intend to find out.

I've had a combination of these two  for all of my adult life, and probably longer.

Knowing you're not alone is a big help. Knowing it's not just something you're imagining is just as big.

By all means, talk to someone about it. I've been strictly with coping mechanisms, but I'm contemplating going the pharma route after fighting for four years.

Is it not the case that you are procrastinating because you'd rather be doing something else? If so, here's my diagnosis: you're human. Modern working life does not tolerate the human condition.

If they can afford it, why would anyone use coping mechanisms when they could be using drugs?  :grin:
How? No, seriously, how?

I don't know. I've never understood the need to not be alone. That part of my brain doesn't exist. As such, I find alcoholics anonymous a totally laughable endeavor for anyone, including addicts.

My COMPLETELY non-professional guess is that this isn't ADHD, it is depression.

This is a symptom.  Huge difficulty doing things you do not want to do.  It's not because you are lazy, it's because your brain doesn't work like everyone else's.  What works for me is some combination of finding a way to make it interesting or waiting until it is interesting.  Both of these methods make no sense to normal people, but they work.


Stop doing those things.  Firstly, there are other people like you and your situation is well-documented.  Secondly, you probably have great talents at certain things and ignore these in favor of beating up on yourself for not being like a regular person.  You might be fine with just making some adjustments to how you do things, see ADHD coaches for this.  Otherwise you can see a doctor.  You will know soon enough if the meds work for you or do not, and if not then get off them.


Nope, all that sounds exactly like me.  Do you wear a watch?  ADHD people do not often wear watches.

As for depression, it's fucking depressing to be unable to do things a normal person can do easily while being unable to explain why, plus the fact that most people think ADHD is bullshit and tell you that you are lazy doesn't exactly make you feel good about yourself.  Best advice is to see a doctor and get it all sorted.


This is a great question, actually.  I think I just don't care for taking a pill every day.  Did that already, feel better now.

Been doing that for years.  In fact, I'm doing that RIGHT NOW.

But ya, almost everything you two have posted is me to a T.  I've just been procrastinating for so many years that I'm curious if a chemical will break my Cycle.

While there may be actual neurochemical imbalances in some people that are "diagnosed" ADHD/ADD they sure as fuck are in the minority of people on ADD/ADHD drugs. You can get a diagnosis and prescription for ADHD/ADD after a 30 second conversation with a doctor.

Which agrees with what I said above.  It's a part of the growing problem with having a profit-based healthcare system.  Give the customer what they want or they will go someplace else. 

I get really nervous when I am not able to check the time of day. So no, not really.

I think pandering to those with a complete lack of will power has something to do with it also. Im lazy and unmotivated due to my brain chemistry! Please give me a prescription so i can circumvent my personal responsibility for my mental state. I also want an operation to make myself thin because I have a genetic predisposition to consume 100,000 calories a day. I am also depressed due to the two before mentioned factors so will also require something for that.

Hm.. so what is it when you don't do something simply because it doesn't interest you.  I've wondered if I'm ADD since I've had this problem since at least the 5th grade, butI'm not hyper.   I can focus when i want to and dedicate hours of attention to detail to a single task, I just don't want to pretty damn often.  Mundane things bore me to tears, I need puzzles and complex tangles to unravel and diagnose.  I procrastinate on the boring shit, but get right into the things that interest me.  

Damn, maybe it's just terminal humanity.

I know what you mean Merusk, I'm exactly the same.  Thats normal I think.

I thought quite some time I was autistic because some online descriptions I read fit me so well.

I feel really uncomfortable in situations with too many people I don't know, have problems in crowds if I feel the focus is on me, I even have avoided situation where the ratio of known versus unknown people was against my liking (like sitting down at a table where more than a third to half are strangers,depending on the number of people). Every time I changed classroom (or now office) I felt depressed or threatened until I get used to the new surroundings.

I also hate surprises and things that are completely beyond my control. And I have been counting things out of the blue when my mind wanders (like counting the letters in words I hear or think about repeatedly on my fingers until they "finish" off at 5 or ten (or 4+multitudes of three if I count on my thumb).

Then I met somebody who really has Autism and decided it was just a combination of being vain (I liked the idea of being smart because my brain works differently, which is basically just my trained coping mechanism for my Dyslexia) and not trusting strangers!  :awesome_for_real:

Depends on the severity of the symptoms I would guess. There's a fine line between a personality trait and a disorder I would think.

I struggled for years with panic attacks and obsessive disorder. Imagine your brain taking something completely at random and deciding to make you scared shitless about it, and making it nearly impossible for you to think about anything else. For me it was demonic possession - anything remotely referencing it was enough to make me lose sleep for weeks. I had this for 25 years. I finally went to a doctor about it last year - he just wrote out a prescription for Lexapro and within like 3 days I was fine.

Of course when I told my mother about this 25 years ago she basically told me to STFU and quit watching horror movies.

Knowing you're not going batshit insane because you have something that other people have and can deal with on a daily basis.

You're not special, you're dealing with something  lots of other people deal with and have normal lives. So suck it up , get help if you need it and just go.


If you haven't been there, you don't really know. There's a dispair that builds from not being able to get your focus and do anything. Everything you do is half assed. You start well, but get distracted. All. the. time. You start to beat yourself up and it just builds this destructive cycle. That knowledge personally for me broke the cycle, got me to a better frame of mind.

My coping mechanism is a metric fuckton of lists of things to do. First app I got for my G1 was a list maker.

No watch here. I have a nice one but haven't worn it in over fifteen years.

Man days must last forever for you. I don't even look at clocks anymore.

Seriously, still saying it's mostly stress related.

I'm failing to see your point. Are you implying that if someone was uniquely retarded, he wouldn't have to suck it up and deal with it?
Why should you give a fuck that other people deal with it on a daily basis? What matters is solely if you can or can't. If others are able to, more power to them. What others in this scenario do doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form. Fuck, it should give you even more pressure to get it over if, after all, everyone else does.

It sounds like my alcoholics anonymous comparison was correct.

I believe its a matter of knowing that a given goal is possible makes it easier to accomplish. Of course you also start to self diagnose yourself due to a shallow comparison of experiences and use that to justify your depression and lack of motivation.

I have borderline personality disorder because of the list of symptoms on wiki etc. Billy takes medicine for ADD so its ok to medicate myself.

Did you know:

Your posts are incredibly hard to read.

F13 General Discussion makes me feel left out because you all turn out to be on drugs. I don't know what I'm even doing here. Had some antibiotics a while back and even some paracetamol.

I'm not on drugs, but I probably should be.

Diitto. I'm not even on the recreational kind. I'm just naturally this fucked up.

I have ADD :?

Geez.  And you guys say I'M nuts.  You guys are all kinds of fucked up.

Crazy bastards.

 :awesome_for_real:

I don't even consume alcohol, cigarettes, or drugs of any kind. I'd be a straight edger, if they weren't so silly.

No, you have a minor case of Full Retard.

ADD?

The idea is that everyone else does not.  Also if you think you have it, you have an angle to work towards some solution.  I am sort of assuming Jeff wants some help here, which means he's not using it as an excuse to be a lazy fuck. Finally, it can give you some hope of getting better if you know that other people are dealing with the same thing.

It's not a motivation issue when it is ADD.  That would be depression.  People with ADD do crazy things like get obsessed and demand people help them get a device to take screenshots from a DS, and then later get distracted by something else, never to revisit that idea. :oh_i_see:  Or maybe decide one day to teach themselves to program C# without any prior experience.  Instead of mundane things like remember to get the dog food on the way home.  It's screwed up.

Ok, it's obvious you've no idea about anyones mental state other than your own, but here. let's break this down.



It means that you're not imagining this as being some psychotic fit. You're not as well and truly fucked as you feel you are. You , and schild, seem to think that everyone runs around with full knowledge of them having a problem. It doesn't always work like that.

My case in point. Me. I thought everyone when they talked would jump over fiften to twenty different trains of thought every five second, all competing for space. Why can't you tie two notes played to a melody, then take that melody and a line of the lyrics from the song it came from and connect that to ancient greek mythology to last nights Stagrate SG1 to something you did as a kid in a couple of seconds? What are you, stupid?

But no, no one thinks like that. Also, you never finish what you start because you get distracted. This starts a cycle of negativity. Jeff gave a prime example of what happens. Yes Schild, he's stressed out. The question is why is he stressed out? Relieving stress doesn't fix the underlying issue. That maybe fine for you, but it's only short term. Eventually your trick to reduce stress starts to fail. Then you're really fucked.

Until you learn that you have a illness, you didn't actually think you were sick, just a failure. A lazy fuckup no matter how much you do, because you know you could do more. Because it's in your head to do it,if you could just keep it still for one minute.  This is different from using coping mechanisms without addressing the problem . This is understanding that there really is a problem, which helps you get a really firm grip on why things are like that for you and how you can improve your mental wellbeing. I've been doing it for  four years with therapy and long term coping mechanisms. That works well except when i"m really stressed. Right now I'm in a period of high stress and I'm thinking I might want to try meds, because the coping mechanisms aren't cutting it now.

The AA shit from schild is a false assumption. It's not about having a support group. Fuck, I don't need or want anyone with me to make me be more "normal". I can do that just fine on my own.  

Yeah, this rambled. Welcome to my head  :grin:


For me it was learning russian and how to work with Mixcraft, while forgetting to pick up groceries for the family on the way home from work.

The fact that I am reading this stuff when I'm at work and have some important stuff to do probably says all sorts of things about me.

Not really, that's just simple procrastination.  :awesome_for_real:

That's the problem with diagnosing this.  At what point does being human and normal dealing with unrealistic expectations in society cross the line with illness.


If you're the type to discredit psychology, like I used to be, it makes it  real easy to  just keep pushing that line  of lazy fuck/person with an illness way over past where it should be.

And most people are the opposite, which makes people like me resist the possibility. Because you see all these fucking people using meds as a crutch for biting off more than they can chew.

And the number of people without those symptoms is... very low. Particularly if you are reading a summary in lay terminology. The issue is degree.


There is a huge amount of crossover between what pharmaceutical psychology today diagnoses as ADHD and depression and what in the ancient times used to be called "the human condition." Everyone has those symptoms. The differences are in degree. A generation ago, you weren't diagnosed with any of these things unless you ceased to be functional. Now, you are often diagnosed with them if you are middle class and cease to be exceptional. But at what point normal human existence becomes pathology is entirely subjective.

Ah, alcohol. Now I know what drugs I'm on!

There are screening tests (http://counsellingresource.com/quizzes/adhd/index.html) for this kind of thing.

Good entertainment value. Not sure of medical value.

(Apparently I'm not ADHD; yay me.)

Total score of: 70 (70 or Above, High Probability of ADHD)

I still haven't done much work yet.

Yes. The stunted, unmotivated operator that's jealous of SUBTRACT, DIVIDE and MULTIPLY because they all grew up to be full length words.

Total score of: 16 (Below 70, Not Associated with ADHD)

Do you enjoy lying through your teeth?

You probably are Autistic. At least mildly.

It's called Autism Spectrum Disorder. Spectrum is the important part there. You don't have to be Rain Man, completely non-functional or have Aspberger's to be on the spectrum. Auties aren't all the same. Autism in concert with an intellectual disability is common, but far from exclusive. Autism and OCD are also common together, but again aren't required.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

Enjoy!

Some new info out
 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/26/AR2009032604018.html?hpid=topnews)

We had our daughter try Adderall for a few months after a recommendation from her Kindergarten teacher and us noticing a lot of facial tics (rolling eyes, odd forced expressions).  Took her off over the summer and she has not needed it this year at all.  I'm guessing in some cases once a child is diagnosed the treatment just continues via inertia whether or not it's needed anymore.

36, wee. I hope its Auspergers. I can be just like Sheldon Cooper!  :why_so_serious:

Seriously though, the net is cast so wide that almost everybody in a selected group falls under the umbrella of a particular Spectrum disorder. I would be surprised if less than 75% of the people here were over 32 on that test.

I scored a 7.

15 yay :yahoo:

This is close to a description of some days that I have. But...there are plenty of other things about my mind that I think work well. I'm deeply anxious about the idea of a drug that would affect my mind or emotions: I don't even know if I could evaluate their effects for myself as myself, as I've known myself for 40+ years, once I was using such a drug. Arguably in many cases my distractedness is also the source of my creativity, of my knowiedge. It's what makes me the particular intellect that I am, operating in the academic environment that I do.

So yes, there are things about the way that I work that are not good: the way I get stuck on very ordinary tasks, or semi-phobic about finishing the last part of the last thing. I have a book manuscript that has been 98% done for two years but the last 2% is so repellant to me that I'll do a great many things rather than hammer down that nail. I'm sure I frustrate colleagues because of this at times. But I also know I bring a lot of assets to any table in terms of my eclectic base of knowledge and interests. I feel like in some sense I shouldn't meddle with that. I don't know what I'd be like if I didn't diddle around trying to finish basic tasks, if I could focus for hours on end on one important job. I don't have a clear way to understand what I'd lose.

I also don't know how I'd find a psychologist or other clinical figure I feel I could trust to walk me through all this in a way that wasn't already predetermined--someone with the same skepticism, the same willingness to think carefully about particular cases, someone who would take the time to know who I am. My regular doctor isn't that kind of person--she's fine when I need an antibiotic for a cold, but I don't trust her to pay attention to me as a person. I don't trust most of what I know about psychotherapy and psychiatry: there's been a whole series of revelations recently about how badly tainted a lot of academic research is in terms of ties to drug firms, and that's specifically intense around psychotherapeutic drugs. I don't particularly feel like talking to colleagues or friends about who they might be seeing: some of the people around here who are most vocal about the fact that they've sought psychotherapy are the most neurotic and self-indulgent people I know, and I don't trust them at all when it comes to a clear-minded assessment of who is or is not a reliable therapist.

55.  Apparently I'm just lazy and have a fear of finishing things.

104 Bitches! YEAAAAH!


Oh, wait, this isn't a good thing. Fuck.


This.

This condition is part of who I am. I can do things that most people can't with ease. The price is that it doesn't shut off. If I can be a functioning member of society and earn money and keep things together, do I really want to give up what on many levels is an outstanding part of who I am as a person?

I've always fucking adored this rationalization as a coping mechanism for dealing with disorder. Doctors use it, parents use it for their autistic children, it's just fucking awesome. Why?

Because it's goddamn insane, that's why.

Edit: I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just saying, yea, great, you can do some shit that other people can't with ease. And other people can do simple normal societal shit that people with massive or even minor disorder can't even wrap their brains around. It's a crappy reasoning for anything. Everyone can do something the next person can't with ease. Saying that is a load of bollocks and you know it and I know it and parents know it and doctors know it.

108, heh.

I had begun a post yesterday about one day of my vacation, when I was simply going to replace some ceiling tiles. And how my condition led me on a merry chase all over town, jumping from project to project and place to place in a completely distracted manner. A job that should've taken maybe a half-hour (including a store run) took all day, though I got three other projects finished in the interim. Wish I had had time to finish the post, I was at a couple thousand words when I had to take off and it was humorous to me just to see how easily distracted yet kinda productive I was.

And sigil echoes what I was saying earlier. It's the most common resistance to moderating the condition with drugs. I'm very tempted to try it out and see what life would be like for a month with the condition moderated. Would I gain in focus what I would lose in sheer speed and creativity? Interesting dilemma.

Badly worded question ><

I scored 20

Seem that coping mechanisms are largely bullshit, would you agree?  They are still useful.  Your issue, I think, is in people making excuses for things and I'm on board with that, in general.  The coping mechanism is a tool, like a fork.  You're not suggesting I eat with my hands like everyone else, are you?  Seriously, though, I don't know any ADD adults that use it as an excuse for anything.  If it was laziness, it would be a hell of a lot easier to just give up.

Practically speaking, my ability to do certain things easily due to ADD isn't something people think about when I can't remember a list of more than two things to get at the grocery store, but it makes me feel better to know that I can Get Shit Done better than many other people in the right situations.  Helps focus on my successes while most people focus on my failures... constantly.  Sometimes the ADD even counts for something!  I'm sure a few people have wondered how I manage to keep the job I have knowing just a few things about me.  It's because I am very, very good at what I do.  If I had to do anything resembling a factory job, I'd be very, very bad at it and probably very depressed.

Admittedly, it's not exactly what I do but how I do it that is different.  I have learned ways to make boring things interesting and therefore have greatly reduced my procrastination.  I would not have went this route if I had not learned I have some degree of ADD and how it affects me.  Call it bullshit if you want, but it works.  Also, I get to keep my creativity and cats-in-a-minefield thought process.

By the way, your normal scores on those tests are incredibly scary.  I got a 86 on the ADD test and 18 on the autism test.

I was surprised myself. I mean, I expected to be right below the cutoff point but not several magnitudes lower than the populace. Granted, I have the ability to hyper focus at will, socially engineer the fuck out of just about anyone when necessary, and Get Things Done independent of however many other projects I'm working on. I mean, look at f13, the wiki, the game I'm working on, and everything else piled on and I'm still managing to focus as needed. Combine that with until recently I've been working full time since starting f13 and managed to keep it altogether, it's not exactly shocking I'm not the least bit ADD or autistic. Of course, those low scores are probably why I look at authority figures with disdain because they are more than likely stupider than me (at least, to me they are). Also, I probably qualify as a sociopath.

I don't feel like you're insulting me. Ok well last night I did, but I just chalked it up to you being emo for God hating Austin and trying to kill it with ice. My condolences on that, btw.

If I was having more difficulty your point would be perfectly valid. The fact that I'm seeing some slippage under stress is telling me that I might want to go  the pharma route and give up the cool bits.  So, I'm  agreeing with the bulk of what you just said, but allowing for some degree of self control being sufficient for most people to take advantage of the positives while minimizing the negatives. If you can function with it and talk to girls and stuff and keep your bills paid, it can be an asset. The problem is when you can't.

I am worried about this as well.  Let's say I get some Ritalin and suddenly I'm the Model Husband.  I go grocery shopping successfully and I even remember to get the rug from the dry cleaner next door (instead of forgetting about it every. single. time. since the end of January!).  That evening, I cook dinner and don't forget to start cooking the side dish on time... or at all.  I also listen intently to my wife's wordy instruction transmissions and absorb everything.  A fine evening, so sayeth Normals and my wife.  Then I guess I just go to bed like unplugging a robot?  And do it again the next day?  At work, how do solve problems?  Brute force trial-and-error or previous experience, I guess.  Would I still write scripts to automate things?  Some of that is kinda scary.  I don't want to be normal because I secretly believe normal people are stupid and boring, unable to perceive the best parts of the universe.  Instead of meds, I drink lots of coffee.

Indeed you do. I maintain that you refuse to qualify yourself as a schizoid because you read the bit about chronic masturbation and thought "no way am I ever admitting that on the internets".  :why_so_serious:

I have always wondered what the threshold for this is.

Usually it's the "fap until your dick hurts for the rest of the day" criteria. Google yields numerous answers.

I'll be damned if I'm googling that. :oh_i_see:

Yeg, I don't think all the ritalin in the world could make you normal.  :heart:

Fuckin' A.

Seriously, that's an advanced bit of assholery.

Khal,  understand this about Itto's response. It's the rational response of someone who has no idea what he's talking about, but thinks he does.

The concept of not being alone, he's focusing on it as being "oh, I can find people who share this and we can do 12 step progams and it's ok" Which is how Schild took it. So I tried to go into detail.

I'm looking at it as, ok, this is something that I can quantify now.  Knowing is half the battle and all that shit.

That disconnect is why he thinks I'm lying through my teeth, when in  reality both statements are essentially correct. Although I am talking to a therapist that I trust and my friends, but it's not a support group in the 12 step sense.

Hey, whatever works for you.

Look, I have a lot of suspicion of 12-step culture, support groups and so on. A lot of them annoy me. But if I'm talking to someone who is trying to talk about how they came to understand themselves, why should I ever be an asshole about it unless that person hurts me or does something bad to me on a regular basis? It's good when people talk about how they understand their own minds and motivations: that's how you understand yourself better even if (especially if) you think that's not the way you work. It's kind of the point of having forums and talking and listening to other human beings. If you're fucking sure you already have all the answers in life, then why the fuck are you bothering shitting on people on the Internet? You have better things to do, like ascending into heaven or being Muad'dib or something.

e.g., chill the fuck out or show me on the doll where the bad mans touched you.

Judging by his profile, he's a kid. He's going to run his mouth and Troll.

I wouldn't worry to much about him.

Hey, I can exactly relate to sigil.

Reading about ADD wasn't such a revelation because I found out what's wrong with me (that was a bonus) it was because I realized that there are other people out there who deal with the same problems I do. It makes me feel a lot less weird about my situation, which is a good thing (TM). Knowing that there are people out there that I could talk to and that would know exactly how I feel is a relief. Especially when you always thought that everybody around you was normal except for you.

On the other hand I don't need some sort of weekly ADD anonymous support group, so yeah I know what he means.

Also I scored an 84 on the ADD test that was linked in this thread an an 28 on the other test. Take it for what it's worth. (As far as internet tests go, so probably nothing)

Well congrats. We should form our own little clubhouse. Except it would never get completed because we'd be so busy futzing with a million other things that we'd forget about it.

Sky could build it. We'll be ready for visitors  on July 1st of never.

Communal reinforcement is a wonderful thing.

Oh man, a guy that hides his age looked at my profile info! I'm ousted!
Or you could just admit that you yourself adopt a reasoning that goes completely against what you previously said, and just blurted some pearls of wisdom shit because it seemed like the right thing to do™, even though it was a lie. Instead you've  opted for ad hominem. Again. Classy. :oh_i_see:
If that doesn't suit you, your previous recourse of completely ignoring my question was working quite well, I should say.

Khaldun: He's a guy. You don't white knight for guys. Chill, dood.

No need to be so angry.   

Experiences with it? I live with it daily. I don't medicate; I did when I was younger but I stopped when I became an adult. I'm just over the border so I'm able to control it with lifestyle.

I think I would miss daydreaming.

Attaboy! That's the way!

From the net... so you know its true  :grin:

It is commonly asked why the stimulant concerta should be used to treat hyperactivity, which seems on the surface, very paradoxical. However, MRIs of ADHD brains show decreased activity in the brain centers critical to concentration and goal-directed activities. Treatment with methylphenidate (etc.) results in increased activity in those regions, in ADHD patients, and in healthy controls as well.

Thus the model explanation is that hyperactive children (and adults) have underactive concentration centers, and stimulating them reduces hyperactivity. Thus the stimulants do not work paradoxically. They stimulate portions of the brain that are underactive by increasing dopamine and norepinephrine in the striatum and prefontal cortex.

It's taking my fiancee a long time to adjust to the fact that I discuss almost every idea that pops into my head, she's very much concrete reality, think things through before discussing them. I like to bounce ideas around and think out loud, a whole lot of great ideas come forth that way, and people always have some interesting perspective I haven't thought of. I take it as normal, so it's pretty cool (and occasionally frustrating) having a mate who is almost my opposite. We work great together, when we can remember that I'm not serious about most of my crazy ideas and that she's not being negative when she's bringing me back to reality.

She also thinks I'm nuts for considering medication, she says I'm extremely functional. Thing is, she doesn't have to live with my brain all day :) It can get annoying at times.

Total score of: 47 (Below 70, Not Associated with ADHD)   :ye_gods:

I scored a 23.../shrug

38 on the Autism test.  I lost interest in the ADHD test. :oh_i_see:

I got a 56 on the ADD test. I don't feel any of the physical unrest or twitchiness they describe and I don't tend to have that much problem taking my turn, listening patiently and so on in group settings. In fact, meetings and groups that are project-dedicated tend to be a place where I do really well right up until we get down to dividing up really concrete tasks, whereupon I tend to get bored. The only questions where I could strongly agree with what's described are the ones about a mental sensation of constant noise, distractedness and so on, and with the ones that involve task completion, which is where I really have some issues and bad feelings.

It's probably a bad thing that I double most scores here and probably rated myself conservatively.  :awesome_for_real:

I didn't take any tests but my favourite number is 12.

You like Sky-high scores?

Damnit, I didn't pass any of those tests. Give more, please. I need to find some disorder or other so I have some excuse for how fucked up I really am.

It's probably all in your head  :grin:

If it makes you feel any better, you are both more prone to ADHD and autism than me. That's surely a disorder.

The "more prone to ADHD and autism than schild"-disorder? Hm. I'll take it!

Yea but you have a government job so fuggit. :why_so_serious:

That test is worthless.  How many different ways did it ask the exact same question? 

Seems a high score could have as easily predicted bipolar disorder or a complete lack of short-term memory. 

Next you are going to tell me my horoscope is not an accurate measure of my day.

Same score!  We're not-adhd-according-to-a-web-quiz-buddies!

I honestly am a bit skeptical of the ADD/ADHD thing, especially given the way that people seem ready to medicate themselves and their kids at the drop of a hat.  It seems to help some people quite a bit, but personally I'm pretty cautious about mucking with my brain chemistry.  I mean I've only got the one and I rely on it for a lot of stuff!

EDIT: Only got 19 on the Autism test.

58. I am convinced I would have been a ritalin kid when I was a kid though. I remember mostly through the lens of my parents' eyes. I'd have scored Moderately and above on all those things when I was 8, 14 and 22.

At 38 though, I've had a lifetime of practice to work around it. Doesn't hurt to be a technophile either, self-imposed organization. Caffeine too, very good focuser as long as I don't overdo it.

Schitzophrenia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT1JAHPGZts)

I saw a better video in school where a schizophrenic segued from procreation into nuclear fission.  The current hypothesis is that Schizophrenia occurs around the ages of 18-25 when your brain begins culling neurons that no longer serve any purpose, and that the actual development of the disease is due to overactive culling causing vast sections of the person's brain to disappear, at which point the brain attempts to repair the broken connections and links random shit to other random shit.  Often with moderate to severe cases the individual even realizes that something is awfully fucked with how they think.

I've  got a good handle on what my issues are thanks to my deciding to get checked out. While I've got a couple of issues that I'm dealing with, fortunately Schizophrenia was not diagnosed as one of them. :-)

I do feel for those people, that's a much harder road to cover. And it's conditions like that that make me look at my own situation and say, "You're complaining because of that? Wanker."

I answered those questions as I remember how my mind worked when I was teenager and scored 100 then did my current mindstate and scored 50, seems old age is a good cure. My worst case of ADD was when I was playing in bands and in front of a large audience I'd start daydreaming and forget parts of the song, lucky most of the crowds would be too pissed to notice or care.

I got 7 on the AQ test.


I'm not sure what that means.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, GODDAMMIT!?!

Wait, what were you saying?

I agree completely.  I took the Personality Assessment Inventory and while it found several, uh, things worth looking at, it did not mention anything about ADD.  So, yeah, diagnosis is hard and in many ways connected to what you are looking for.  Most of my stress relief came from adjustments based on the PAI, not from me reading ADD articles on the net, and I suggest to everyone that they see an expert if it really is bothering them.

Then again, tests like the PAI do ask the same question in multiple ways, but is far less obvious about it.

Oh come on, it was just for fun. It's like any personality test. They ask the same block of 10 or so questions 4 different ways and then pull metrics from that. Shit, I think I took that Meyer-Briggs thing 20 years ago now.

Like I said in the Effexor thread I started last year, finally getting the meds has completely changed my life for the better. Seriously. And none of the stuff I was worried about came to pass. Had i not started taking meds I am absolutely sure I would have killed at least one or more people by now. The reason I know is because I was looking up rental prices for concrete cutters to start digging out a hidden room under my basement. Thankfully I had a "I'm carefully pre-planning the construction of a hidden room under my basement. Even if meds make me dead inside, it would still be a better idea". Seriously, I had even worked out below sewer line plumbing issues, post activity waste disposal, and ensuring addequate ventilation while muffling sounds to where no one outside the room could hear. So I guess the point is to get on something when you're thinking about doing it. Chances are good if you think you need it, you do.

Anti-depressants are used to treat psychotics now?

Not psychotic, who the fuck are you, and why do you think you've earned the right to anything but lurking here. Crawl back under your rock board nub. You can have the right to respond to anything I write when you've been here at least two years. Until then keep your fucking retard mouth shut. And double-fuck your mouth if you're an actual new guy instead of a new grief account. You're that bad.

Those meds are working great  :awesome_for_real: The question was not snarky btw.

If you got an extremely lowscore on that test I'd imagine you probably could be considered OCD, I think if you consider your child ADD just improve his diet and try some homeopathic routes first, before prescription cocaine.

To be fair, we are talking about adult ADD which I believe is underdiagnosed, as opposed to childhood ADD which can sometimes be due to Little Timmy interfering with mommy's cocktail hour rather than a real problem.  I don't know anything about childhood ADD, actually, and don't know if I may have had it or not.  I suppose if I have it now, I'd have had it then, however I was able to function... possibly because I was never hyperactive.

I'm somewhat OCD as well.  Not sure what that means.  Don't care either since it bothers other people, not me. :awesome_for_real:

The problem is that a lot of the symptoms for ADD can also be signs of other psychological disorders. Also there are some comorbid conditions that are associated with ADD, for example depression, some tourette like symptoms or OCD like symptoms and other things.

Combine that with the fact that a lot of psychotherapists still believe that ADD vanishes as the patients become adults and you get two situations.

ADD is the single most researched disorder as far as kids are concerned so there a a lot of overdiagnosed kids out there.
Adults are usually treated for their comorbid disorders because they learned coping strategies for their ADD and many therapists wouldn't even look for it. So you have underdiagnosed adults.

You also cannot really test for this disorder except with error-prone psychological evaluations.

A good test is to take some Ritalin and see if you magically become normal. :oh_i_see:

I become normal with vicodin.

Don't you roleplay?

Worse, she thinks good RP exists. Clearly delusional.

Yes, a drug addict.  Why do you ask?

I got a 28 on that ADD test, mostly because me thoughts only seem to be all over the place when I'm trying to sleep. The rest of the time, it's not a problem.

Funny thread though.

So, was there any consensus reached on what is the 'best' medication to get?  I've gotten to the point where I'm really really thinking I have at least some form of ADHD (not just suddenly, I think I've had the problem for a looong time now, its just that I always ignored it and tried to work around it) and its pissing me off greatly.  I'm curious to try some of the meds to see if they have any effect at all.

Only one I know of is Ritalin, but everybody here seems to be throwing out all these new names I've never heard of.

You should look up the word homeopathic before you use it ever again, because in contrast giving children cocaine is sane.

I'm trying to resist being snarky, so I'll just say that when you consult a medical professional he'll give you a list of available options and make recommendations on them.


ho·me·op·a·thy      (hō'mē-ŏp'ə-thē)    n.   pl. ho·me·op·a·thies
A system for treating disease based on the administration of minute doses of a drug that in massive amounts produces symptoms in healthy individuals similar to those of the disease itself.

What the fuck. Seriously? People believe this?

Yeah, I'm going to go to a doctor.  Just kind of wanted to walk in ahead of time with some knowledge of the various options, then hearing what they say.

The original hypothesis was arrived at around the time that the medical properties of Cinchona bark, a toxic and rather unpleasant medicine, had been discovered for curing Malaria.  The rationale was that the ground up and diluted bar of the Cinchona tree worked in much the same way as we know vaccination to work, allowing the body to fight one disease by promoting the mechanisms to do the fighting.  The truth is that the doctors of the time were completely unaware of the presence or effect of Quinine, which kills many microorganisms substantially faster than it does humans in addition to being anti-inflammatory, fever-reducing, and pain-relieving.  As it so happens, British soldiers preferred to drink their anti-malarial tonic with Gin.

In the meantime, a school of quackery was developed around the notion that diluting something that kills you makes it a potent curative, with it increasing in curative properties as it is further diluted, to the point where the most potent homeopathic medicines are chemically indistinguishable from distilled water.  This is ignoring the fact that by definition nearly all water on the face of the earth fits the definition of "homeopathic medicine"  unless it has been dug out of a deep underground aquifer and was thus removed from the hydrological cycle.  Of course, realizing that their medicines are a crock of shit some homeopathic medicine producers have elected to make less dilute solutions, occasionally resulting in being sued for causing harm to the user for ingesting their arsenic/lead/mercury/whateverthefuck solution like the dumb new-age shit-for-brains they are.

In the meantime, I'm sticking with this to protect me from malaria:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e2/Gin_and_Tonic_close.jpg/200px-Gin_and_Tonic_close.jpg)

Are you aware that antivenom in a lot of cases is a diluted extract of the venom itself? crackpot idea though I know imagine readministering poison to a bite victim, lots of crazy people out there!!

There are two meds for ADD, possibly a new third one that I don't know about.  I have not tried either of them.  Obscene amounts of caffeine work OK for me, and really any stimulant would have some positive effect.  If you find that you perform better (meaning, more focused) when wired, you might get some traction with the ADD meds.

No, they inject the venom into animals and then harvest the anti-bodies.

Secondly:


Tell me, what is it about arsenic that is supposed to inoculate a person against skin discolouration and diabetes?  Please note: homeopathic medicines are selected based on whether they cause symptoms alike the disease they're supposed to cure, there need be no causal relationship between the two.

Yes you are right for the most part but I think in some cases they can readminister the poison, regardless the point is that mithridization is a proven technique whether they use animals or humans to build up immunity. I would be an advocate of the alternative approach though, especially when the mainstream solutions involves using a grade A narcotic for a seemingly undetectable condition that hasn't really been proven. If we were talking about cancer I wouldn't be such an advocate if you know what I mean.

EDIT: grammar

Look I'm not a huge advocate of homeopathy just would look at alternatives and just happened to mention that, you could look at Chinese medicine for fucks sake anything but getting your child addicted to cocaine that's nuts man.

Did I say I was homeopathic expert? just fuck off into whatever hole you climbed out of.

I can't function if I'm not wired. But ritalin puts me over the top into hyperfocus man. It's actually my superhero persona. I can only imagine what pure cocaine would do.

I'd probably solve the world's hunger problem and then eat the napkin because it looked delicious.

Take a tablespoon of this shit link (http://www.naturalife.ie/product.asp?numRecordPosition=2&P_ID=251&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=76) with some juice or milk and some guarana you will be pretty buzzin.

Wheat grass doesn't do a goddamn thing for me, hippie.

Also, I don't know why - because it should, theoretically.

Works for me but not as much as cocaine.

My girlfriend is doing a distance learning programme and the main subject is dietary. There's a section on ADHD and it says to try Flax Seed oil over a few months cause it contains Omega 3, Omega 6 and Vitamin E. Over the space of three months tests have shown children (should work with adults aswell presumably) with ADHD have improved their reading abilities threefold and spelling rate had doubled. It has to do with replacing a deficiency in the brains predominant fatty acid DHA. Another thing you can try apparently is Pycnogenol which is an antioxidant and balances stress hormones.

So who were you planning on showing your new basement renovations to?

Just popped in here to tell you all how proud I am of you that you have a 5 page thread on ADHD and no-one's derailed it.

 :awesome_for_real:

I'm somewhat surprised no one's gone for, "I didn't know bob was Austrian."

I've thought about it and very nearly all of my experiences with ADHD have come from this thread.

Just a short necro of the thread I originally started to give a short update.

The process of assessing whether I suffer from ADD or not took the better part of the last 9 months. My psychiatrist and neurologist made me do a lot of tests and evaluations, my personal history was evaluated and other conditions were ruled out.

The preliminary verdict so far is that ADHD is very likely. I am now on my fourth day of medication and the change is rather significant. My constant tiredness is gone. I am down to one or two cups of coffee per day (from 6 to 8) and I actually don't need so much energy to start work or to finish what I started in the first place. I am now even able to concentrate on what people say and to stay alert through a whole meeting without drifting off or the urge to stand up and walk around.

Also "thinking" is easier if you know what I mean. I have done more work in the last four days, than in the week before that because I don't spend hours putting things off or leaving things half finished because they stop being interesting.

Rebound when the effect of the meds wears of is bad however, the symptoms actually get worse than they usually are.

Congratulations.  You have made me once again consider going through the hassle of trying to be diagnosed.  It's sad that the diagnostic for this particular problem requires many traits that are anathema to the patient.

Wait.  Bob is Austrian?

can you order addrerall or ritalin without a prescription? 

Total score: 108, here, I likely have a problem, and I thought I was always just an asshole who can't focus. :grin:

That's not nuts, that's awesome. Hey kid, settle down, here's some coke. :why_so_serious:

maybe in mexico

adderall requires a triplicate form and the doctors prescription must be filled within 7 days after that it is void... Adderall is related to speed and the reallly keep a tight watch.  I took adderall in my early 30s for a bit, much less harsh than ritalin..... these days my job is such that I can be the scatter brained impulsive intuitive yahooo i normally am.. so I no longer bother with the meds. /shrug.

anyway btwn adderal and ritalin i would opt for adderal.  If memory serves adderal is a second generation drug and the feeling is "cleaner" there is less of a "ooooh shit the drugs are kicking in" feeling.

anways good luck ADHD is definately a blessing and a curse.


as to the mention of coke, yeah I tried it a few times and quickly realized it was a very very bad drug for me to do.

New sig.

Edit: Total score of: 93 (70 or Above, High Probability of ADHD) Yow. 33 on the Autism test.

I would gladly take something chemical if it would cause a positive change in my day-to-day behavior, including more success in social situations and becoming more someone a group would want me to be a part of. Right now, I suffer from terrible isolation of my own making that I want to get out of.

I'm taking Celexes for depression, which does prevent the worst of any angry-related behavior problems. The rebound if I forget two days in a row is crippling. I'm the male equivalent of a psychotic bitch until my body's chemical balance is returned.

But the aspects discussed in this thread... I am probably going to investigate.

Sounds like you need lots of alcohol.

:grin:

Let me experiment with that tonight and get back to you.

Someone earlier mentioned Strattera (I know, earlier being 7 months ago), but I thought I should throw some input into this since I've had some very close experience with this medication in particular.  If you read the FDA known side effects, suicidal thoughts are among them, as well as new psychotic symptoms (such as hearing voices, believing things that are not true, being suspicious) or new manic symptoms.

In particular, my younger brother (He was 28) was misdiagnosed as ADHD and prescribed Strattera.  Within 3 days he had a complete psychotic break, and has since been diagnosed as Bipolar I (technically Bipolar NOS, Not Otherwise Specified), with visits to psychiatric institutions on a fairly regular basis as we have to have him involuntarily committed.  His entire life he's been Bipolar, as it's something genetically inherited, the issue was, he's hypomanic with no signs at all of depression.  He was voted class clown, and was always really happy, how that's a "disorder" is beyond me, and obviously went undiagnosed until his late 20's.

Up until this episode, he was married, with a college degree and a successful job.  Now he's on full state disability, his wife divorced him, and he has trouble functioning on a day-to-day basis.  He's on 9 different medications and takes a total of 14 pills per day.

Would he have eventually had a psychotic break?  I guess nobody will ever know, but to me, knowing that a misdiagnosis such as this, for something that is overmedicated for on a regular basis makes my hairs stand on end.

Also, the fact that he may have been just fine leading the life he was, and that this medication specifically triggered his psychotic break, definitely depresses me when I look at the state of his life as it is now. 

Just something to think about when considering treatment.

-Phil

That's messed up, it's so easy to misdiagnose cause these quacks can't properly explore someones mind. From what I hear they don't even try they, just what are your symptoms? ok take these.

Yea, that's the main drive behind the long-ass process of being diagnosed with ADHD.  Giving those drugs to non-ADHD people is a bad idea.

40 on the ADHD test and 27 on the autism test.  Woohoo, I'm just barely normal!   :awesome_for_real: