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Title: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Thrawn on March 24, 2009, 11:02:36 AM According to the Game Devolopment forum you can expect some nice buffs to stealth bombers and a completely backbreaking ECM ship nerfs -
Quote Falcon & Rook The falcon has been changed to be similar to the pilgrim in its role as a ECM brawler at shorter ranges. It has a bigger ECM strength bonus whilst losing its ECM optimal range bonus. In addition its agility and base velocity and have been increased to allow it to be more manoeuvrable at shorter ranges. Summary Falcon changes - ECM Strength Bonus increased from 20 to 25% per level - ECM Optimal Range Bonus removed (52km optimal / 81km falloff w/ 2*SDA IIs) - Increase in general manoeuvrability (might give agility bonus to it to replace the ECM optimal range bonus) The rook operates at longer ranges, able to attack at distance and whilst having a weaker ECM strength but longer ECM range than the falcon can lay some real damage on its target gaining a heavy/heavy assault and standard missile velocity bonus in addition to a small drone bay for additional utility. Summary Rook Changes - ECM strength bonus decreased to 15% per level - ECM Optimal Range bonus decreased to 15% per level (92km optimal / 81km falloff) - 5% Heavy/Heavy Assault missile velocity per recon ship level added (105km range with heavy missiles at max skills) - 25m3 drone bay / 25 mbit bandwidth added The Scorpion We are looking at putting the scorpion into the short range brawler role. To that end we are looking at removing its ECM Optimal range bonus, increasing the ECM strength bonus a little and adding a cruise/siege launcher rate of fire bonus so it can get close and personal. Summary Scorpion Changes - removed the ECM optimal range bonus - increased the ECM strength bonus to 20% per level - added a 5% RoF bonus to cruise & siege missile launchers per level. Yay, I can do DPS in my Scorpion now and I have to get in lock range of everything to use a Falcon! Awsome! Maybe this is how they'll make T3 attractive, they'll just nerf the hell out of everything thats currently used a lot. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 24, 2009, 03:01:03 PM Well it isn't surprising, since it seems half the ships in any given sized fleet are Falcons or wannabe Falcons.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Pax on March 24, 2009, 03:12:55 PM I'm quite pleased by this.
Everyone having a Falcon alt has long reached beyond stupid levels. Now to the really important news - Stealth Bomber are getting a Giving them more dmg potential is a good thing, though I'm not sure, if point blank range is going to make them attractive. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Thrawn on March 24, 2009, 03:16:01 PM While I don't disagree that ECM needed some adjusting the usuall CCP heavy handed approach to just nerf it to hell isn't suprising.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: bhodi on March 24, 2009, 03:24:53 PM Falcons needed the nerf. Everyone agrees with that.
Scorpions getting hit with splash damage is really unfortunate and as a whole it seems the ECM nerf wasn't well thought out. Forcing them to be closer-range but not compensating them with armor bonuses means that no one will ever fly them in fleet fights. That means no one will fly caldari in fleet fights, since missiles/torps still aren't useful. Suggesting that maybe they should be up close 'brawlers' is either ignorance or sheer stupidity. They have 4 launchers. FOUR LAUNCHERS. And no ranged bonus. Stealth bomber also works out to be a nerf. You used to be able to one-volley cruisers. So now, instead, you can shoot torps at battleships, take down a third of their shields, and still be destroyed in one volley. The reason SBs suck is their 1k EHP and their requirement to be within 25k or so of their target. Switching to torps doesn't help either of these two issues. It's a nerf because the switch to torps also eliminates the ability to hit smaller prey. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 24, 2009, 03:39:04 PM I don't even know how ECM still exists.
All the other forms of CC have workarounds and their counter mods are useful even if they aren't actively countering the CC. ECM is a random binary switch that completely neuters 95% of the ship load outs in game AND it's counter module is ineffective and virtually useless when you aren't being ECM'd. To say nothing of the awesome fun of being unable to do anything but rep yourself while being locked out. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Endie on March 24, 2009, 03:40:51 PM Nobody fly Caldari? It's just another buff to MY ROKH. :drill:
(not that I ever seem to get jammed, but being as much as three times as far away as the best ECM ships reach makes me immune and them useless). Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Predator Irl on March 24, 2009, 04:21:14 PM Nobody fly Caldari? It's just another buff to MY ROKH. :drill: (not that I ever seem to get jammed, but being as much as three times as far away as the best ECM ships reach makes me immune and them useless). Only a matter of time before CCP nerf Rokhs too. Eventually we'll all be flying the same ships, they will just look different! But then the noobs will be complaining that someone else's ship will look better than theirs, so CCP will change them so they are all identical. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Sir T on March 24, 2009, 06:13:52 PM I remember when I used to Fly 3 ECM Dominix setups. Good god those were fun.
What people don't realize is that they are bitching about the ECM... that's already been nerfed from the original! Basically ECM modules used to have double the jammer strength. It was changed nearly 2 years ago to the current version, and the only think that stopped Falcons from becoming commonplace was the Nanofags. That said I had great fun with ECCM fit Domis against falcons in my time... :grin: Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: slog on March 25, 2009, 04:10:56 AM Great, I'm 21 days from a fleet fit scorpion too....
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: eldaec on March 25, 2009, 06:58:44 AM Scorpion change looks stupid.
wtf is a brawler? Falcon and rook changes seem reasonable though. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Endie on March 25, 2009, 07:38:06 AM Scorpion change looks stupid. wtf is a brawler? Falcon and rook changes seem reasonable though. I dunno, I think the rook should be able to operate another 40-50km out from the revised figure: close enough that small fast stuff can get to it and lock it down between cycles if it just sprays all its ecm out at once, but far enough away that it has a pretense of a tank. Remember that nobody flies rooks now because even at very long range it dies a lot. The falcon will just never be used. In another year or 18 months they'll actually revise it again to give it some means of defence, but no range, no tank, what looks like mediocre speed and manuevrability for a ship that will be primaried instantly? Strictly a gate-camper's ship for ganking with alongside dps stuff. The scorp looks similarly doomed for most situations: the stronger ecm is just compounding the situation where it will be used (set up on a gate with a bubble and webbing/scrambling tacklers so it is not at risk). You would have to be an idiot to fly them into fleet fights, now: they'll be sitting up front with the poor minmatar... I'd seriously be amazed if they'll survive long enough for their cruises to hit the target, let alone a RoF boost to count. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Predator Irl on March 25, 2009, 07:51:28 AM If they are going to buff the Rook, they should at least give it a similar tank to the onyx to make it useful. At least that way they would be used in fleet fights. From what I can see, CCP are trying to remove ECM from the battlefield. It makes no sense!
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Jayce on March 25, 2009, 08:40:56 AM Great, I'm 21 days from a fleet fit scorpion too.... Looks like this thread just saved you 21 days. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Trebes on March 25, 2009, 09:03:06 AM Scorpion change looks stupid. wtf is a brawler? Could they be trying to turn it into the rough Caldari equivalent of a Megathron but using close range missiles? That's what "brawler" sounded like to me, from my understanding of the Megathron. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Amarr HM on March 25, 2009, 09:22:05 AM I for one am happy with these changes always felt the Falcon overpowered when compared to other Recons. Though it looks a bit heavy handed (CCP vOv) & I agree with Endie I think 100km would have been a good compromise.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Thrawn on March 25, 2009, 09:22:54 AM Actually it appears that CCP is tweaking the changes already, didn't catch exactly how though.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Murgos on March 25, 2009, 11:52:59 AM Actually it appears that CCP is tweaking the changes already, didn't catch exactly how though. I think Falcons don't change in any appreciable way from how they are today. Scorps, although somewhat closer range than before will now have significantly more strength. I think that with a careful setup Scorps may be the new hotness. With a close to 19.xx strength they will be able to with, almost 100% certainty, perma-jam any BS. It works out to something like a 93% chance per module where Falcons will max out at ~60%. Rooks end up somewhere in between strength-wise but shorter distance. Oh, and Falcons are now rail boats. I wonder if the actual point of this change has nothing to do with 0.0 and everything to do with Sleepers? Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Viin on March 25, 2009, 12:18:12 PM Interesting. I can see a solo-gank setup for my Scorp really easily with these changes ...
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: bhodi on March 25, 2009, 01:02:43 PM OK, so CCP backpedaled on a lot of the ECM changes. Why the fuck they don't have an internal testing department to vet the more retarded ideas I'll never know.
Quote CCP Chronotis The tl;dr version of this:Posted - 2009.03.25 15:58:00 - [596] - QuoteReport -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the constructive feedback so far! In the first pass on sisi, we will look at the falcon and rook with their suggested roles switched as many of you suggested so the rook will be the "brawler" (short range ECM strength bonii) and falcon will be the weaker but longer range "sniper" varient. The skill bonuses and other changes to the caldari recons will then look like this: Rook: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% Bonus to Light & Heavy Missile Velocity per level 10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer capacitor use per Level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level 5% bonus to heavy and light missile kinetic damage per level Attribute Changes: +25m3 drone bay +25mbit drone bandwidth Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range per level 5% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Attribute Changes: +1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint Scorpion The scorpion remains unchanged from the original suggestion for now. Whilst this change would make them less usual at long range jamming, they can still jam out to ~140km using their falloff (setup for ECM range) so whilst their role in the long range scenario is reduced, their new short range scenario is much better. The Widow Forgot to mention it would be getting an increase in ECM strength bonus same as the scorpion. Will make a seperate post on black ops themselves. I will update the original post with these changes in a minute. There is no ETA on when these changes will be on sisi for testing as we are currently testing for Apocrypha 1.02. Some time after that is deployed to TQ, then we will move sisi to a version where you can start to playtest these changes and we will continue to monitor feedback and make more tweaks as needed. -- Rook: Close in small gang ECM support. Fairly very strong but still made of tissue paper and is intended to fight in around the sub 50km range. Might actually be useful now for roam/gatecamp work Falcon: Pretty much unchanged from where it is now. Standard GF falcon remains cap stable with the removal of the cap bonus. Effective range reduced to around fleet sniping distances Scorpion: No longer a 250km beast. Effective range reduced to around fleet sniper ranges. Consider ECM much like autocannons now - you're always going to be in falloff. This has the side effect of making ECM very, VERY powerful when at close ranges (<40km), even more powerful than it was before. Also, due to the way falloff works now with ECM, 'easy jam' targets will no longer be able to be permajammed as full falloff has a 50% chance to miss regardless of sensor strength. I suspect this means that people will jam more battleships, less HACs, and won't jam cruisers at all. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Jayce on March 25, 2009, 01:52:23 PM Maybe CCP took a note out of Blizzard's book:
1 - announce ridiculous nerfs 2- let people whine 3- tone down until whining subsides 4- look like the hero. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Viin on March 25, 2009, 02:02:10 PM Aww there goes my gank scorp.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Phildo on March 25, 2009, 06:35:52 PM Jayce, that's been said before. It's never what happens.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: 5150 on March 25, 2009, 11:53:54 PM Since no one else appears to have posted this yet:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1032703 I'm unhappy about this for several reasons: Falcon nerf (which appears to be what the whiners actually want) != ECM nerf which is what CCP appears to be heading towards The Dev posting the thread clearly has no idea what these ships are or how they are used currently (unfortunately I believe the original post has been updated so you wont get to see the original ideas for the 'sniping ECM' Rook with a drone bay and the close range 'brawler ECM' Falcon with added agility! and yes I'll admit this is the first time I've been on the pointy end of a serious nerf (I started ECM back when it was crap so it's only been buffed so far for me) Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Quinton on March 25, 2009, 11:57:51 PM Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2).
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: 5150 on March 26, 2009, 12:03:54 AM Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2). Ah sorry my bad - didnt check there because this change is apparently still away off yet. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Yoru on March 26, 2009, 04:19:35 AM Discussion is ongoing in the "New Patch Tomorrow!" thread (started midway through page 2). Split that out of there, and into here. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Sir T on March 26, 2009, 04:46:33 AM Hmm... I can see people using heavilly tanked scorps with these changes and just dump ECM. I've often felt that with 8 mid slots you could shove a massive shield tank on one and use it as a missile chucker, ignoreing the ecm or have one ecm module on it. That could have a role in a fleet, but it might not be too different from say a Raven if you try that.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2009, 04:48:49 AM Do ECM ship bonuses effect those weird ECM 'Burst' modules?
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: eldaec on March 26, 2009, 05:20:57 AM If they really want the scorp to be a brawler....
15% radius bonus to energy pulse weapons and ecm burst modules. 10% capacitor use bonus to energy pulse weapons and ecm burst modules. [Scorpion, stupid smartbomb theorycrafting] Warp Core Stabilizer I Warp Core Stabilizer I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II ECM Burst II Large EMP Smartbomb II Large EMP Smartbomb II Large EMP Smartbomb II Large EMP Smartbomb II Large EMP Smartbomb II Large EMP Smartbomb II Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: eldaec on March 26, 2009, 05:21:32 AM Do ECM ship bonuses effect those weird ECM 'Burst' modules? Only on a Scorpion. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2009, 05:24:55 AM I always liked the idea of loading nothing but FoF and those ECM Burst modules.
It's probably a comedy kill mail waiting to happen, but dammit, it would be neat! Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: eldaec on March 26, 2009, 05:41:52 AM Smart bombs do more damage, hit everyone, and won't get laughed at (as much).
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2009, 05:55:33 AM Do FoF's hit friendlies?
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Pezzle on March 26, 2009, 06:14:01 AM Last I remember FoF are not supposed to hit friendlies but they still might bug out and do so.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Fordel on March 26, 2009, 06:25:50 AM That would be the end goal I think. Have enough lolScorps so that you can cycle the ECM Burst indefinitely while shittng FoF missiles everywhere.
Locking? Fuck locking! Then they all die a horrible death to the 200KM Sniper fleet. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: eldaec on March 26, 2009, 06:26:31 AM Do FoF's hit friendlies? Doesn't really matter, they don't do any damage. Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Amarr HM on March 26, 2009, 07:03:42 AM Falcon: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 20% Bonus to ECM Target Jammer Optimal Range per level 5% Bonus to Medium Hybrid Optimal Range per level Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level -96% to -100% reduction in Cloaking Device CPU use per level Attribute Changes: +1 turret hardpoint / -1 launcher hardpoint Consider ECM much like autocannons now - you're always going to be in falloff. This has the side effect of making ECM very, VERY powerful when at close ranges (<40km), even more powerful than it was before. Also, due to the way falloff works now with ECM, 'easy jam' targets will no longer be able to be permajammed as full falloff has a 50% chance to miss regardless of sensor strength. I suspect this means that people will jam more battleships, less HACs, and won't jam cruisers at all. How can you be working in falloff now if the bonuses are the same, am I missing something? Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: bhodi on March 26, 2009, 09:06:08 AM On the modules themselves, they flipped the falloff and optimal numbers. They are also altering the SDA and fixing the lack of stacking penalty on ecm rigs.
Title: Re: ECM nerf sighted Post by: Amarr HM on March 26, 2009, 11:16:50 AM On the modules themselves, they flipped the falloff and optimal numbers. They are also altering the SDA and fixing the lack of stacking penalty on ecm rigs. Ah I thought so, I think this might be a better approach perhaps. |