f13.net

For those of you who care:

Read it here (http://xbox.ign.com/articles/569/569096p3.html)

I plan to pick up the game on Tuesday. May be the only thing that can make me take a break from WoW for awhile.

Yeah same here. But if it's as good as the last, then I'll be playing a week straight. Playing a good single player game is the one situation where I'm probably better off playing an MMO instead.

Some game titles make me wish I had an XBox.  Guess I'll be waiting for the PC version of this.

Did anyone else find combat in KOTOR boring?  Maybe it was just me because I powered up stasis field, heal, and destroy robot and used them all the time.  I didn't really see the effect that various bonuses and whatnot had on my characters.  This is especially true when I became a jedi and used an all jedi party whenever possible.

I understand they used the D20 system.  Is that anything like D&D, and if so, which version?

I don't remember a whole lot about the combat system actually. I remember it could get a little easy times, when I toggled on turn-based, but thing that kept me playing wasn't the gameplay (though it was fun enough) but the story. I enjoyed the Adventure aspect of it more than I did the RPG.

As for D20, from my understanding, it is D&D. Originally based off of the 2nd edition, but now given to the public as open source. Atm, it corresponds with the 3rd edition (or is it 3.5?).

It can also be adapted to other games, or you can use it to create your own. I'm not sure if it's entirely open source though. I think Wizards of the Coast holds some control over it still. I guess it's their way of trying to bring some kind of standard for RPG combat systems as well as removing the competition in the process.

Yeah, precisely. And the thing is, it was a better movie than any of the god damn star wars movies that have come out recently. And it wasn't a movie.

Rock on KOTOR, even if you were short and had a horribly silly ending.

I'm looking forward to playing KOTOR2 (in a few months) based on what I'm hearing from that review.  It seems that KOTOR2 has a heavier emphasis on your NPC buddies and the atmosphere, while the combat system is a little lax.  This if perfect, since I feel that the former two are where the strength of the Star Wars theme can really shine; SW combat is inherently unbalanced and therefore inherently boring after you get over the "Oo!  Jedi!" thing.

I am also a *cough* fan of debates on Jedi philosophy which is also apparantly another strong point in the sequel.  The idea of influencing your buddies, turning evil NPCs to good or vice versa is also very appealing, and very Star Wars too.

They have some PS:T devs in the mix at Obsidian, so I'm hoping for a pale reflection of that beautiful game here!

Kotor combat was boring because it was easy once you become a mid level jedi not because of the mechanics.

D20 is largely D&D stripped down and made easily customisable for other genre settings. At least that's how I look at it. I'm sure there is a longer version.

If I could I'd charlie horse you through the computer screen right now.

While I admit the Jedi stuff was all quite fun while playing KOTOR and all that stuff, in reality it's all quite flawed and rather ridiculous at times.

Yes, someone put some thought into it. No, they were not a genius.

Christ, I think I have to give myself a charlie horse now.

The D&D 3rd edition Players Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide are also the two main core rulebooks of the D20 system.  It has since been updated to D&D (and D20) 3.5 Edition, with a few blanace tweaks and a fair bit of streamlining.  

The D20 system itself is an Open Game License product, which means basically that you can make your own setting/classes/world/etc and use the D20 mechanics in our game FOR FREE, provided you tell the people buying your book its a D20 game, and most of the core rules are in the D&D 3.5 PHB and DMG.

Thats kinda neat, IMO.

The flaws of KOTOR, balance-wise, are likely more due to video game deisgn decisions, like not making the random encounters challenging enough for certain templates, rather than mechanical flaws in the system.  If you want a harder challenge, try playing without whipping out the uberlicious 'I win' skill combo.

Its really easy. Kotor had to be solvable by the most craptastic character template people could think of.

Therefore it had to be too easy for all of us min-maxers who tend to ejaculate over excel spreadsheets before even starting their games. Beats having to restart once you realize your template sucks too much to finish the game. I think that happened to me once (in Arcanum) because trying to balance magic and mechanic skills left me to get owned by every high end monster. It ain't funny, people don't pay for that.

When does it come out on PC?

Combat in KOTOR was damn easy on hardest settings but only because I took time to build my character well. I think I will have to intentionally gimp my character in KOTR2 to have some challange.

Solution to easy combat? Make character power based a bit more on items that everyone can get. Make easy<->hard bar affect game in more ways - so if you make great character you still will be challanged on hard settings.

The salesmonkey at the local EBGames said February when I asked yesterday.  He also knew exactly which stack of boxes you couldn't see from the floor contained my DVD copy of Pirates! so I'm inclined to think he keeps fairly good track of stuff.

Someone should come up with a game that evaluates your character and sets the hardness meter for you based on what you rolled up.

Anyone know  why it was changed?  The initial stuff I'd read almost a year ago had impllied a simultanious PC/ X-box  release.

Probably because bunch of retards went and shelled out big buck for a dated PC in a small black box with a green cross on top and now it is more profitable to design and sell games that would run on that POS rather than on normal computer.

From what I remember reading, both games seem to use the extra few months for getting the interface ready for the PC, and ironing out any cross-platform bugs.  Video cards, sound cards, and processor differentiation has to be accounted for, and blah blah etc.  With KOTOR 1 there was that space station that didn't initially show up on the X-Box copy too, so we might see something like that as well.

As much as I liked playing KOTOR on the X-Box last time, this time I think I'm going to wait for the PC version.

Definitely holding out for the pc version. Thinking about selling my xbox while I can still make some money on it.

Please do, never having to hear about how much you hate your consoles again would make me a happy man.

I just wish that for once Lucasarts wasn't so hesitant about mods.  Look at how good Morrowind is once you apply a few hundred megs worth of fan made mods to it.  Now imagine doing that with a game which is actually good in the first place, like I don't believe Morrowind was.

Despite the lack of support, there is still a fairly strong mod community for KotoR.  Check out this forum:

http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=37813526da7c215063e42009a1a7595f&forumid=324

I didn't see anything earth shattering there.  Reskinning is not "modding" as far as I'm concerned.  When there's a good sized community creating new content and slotting it in then I'll call it decently moddable.  Lucasarts won't give an inch on this, though, because they're so protective of the canon even if Lucas himself has already take a horse-sized shit all over it.

Well...I just picked it up. Goodbye to the World of Warcraft. I'll be back in a week or two....Hopelessly comparing you to this game. Then I'll get over it. After that, I'll buy Bloodlines, and see your flaws once again. Then it's on to Pirates, Half Life, Metal Gear, Jade Empires, more GTA...and so on.

Maybe in between all this downtime from all of the other great games out there, I'll finally have accomplished something in WoW. Like a character or something. I still like it, but WoW is more like the perfect game for a rainy day. Nothing more (That's more than I can say about any other MMOG though).

As for KoToR. So far it feels the same (good? bad? you decide). I'm going to play a couple more days before I say anything else. Didn't realize this was developed by "Obsidian" though. Not Bioware.

It's a lot like the 3rd edition D&D, at least from what I was able to gather by playing Neverwinter Nights.  But KOTOR is really based on the Star Wars D20 PnP game.  They changed less than 10% of the rules, and what they did change was to adapt to real-time mechanics.

Games have attempted this with mixed success.

MP2 had dynamic difficulty I seem to remember.

It couldn't be too hard in kotor I guess, if I kill 400 dark jedi without ever dropping below 98% health, that is usually a sign that the difficulty needs to jump up a notch, and should be easy enoiugh for the game to detect.

Does it force you to go into shoot-em-up mode once in a while when you're on the Ebon Hawk like it did in the first version?  I really, really hated that. I'm old and I suck at shooters. :)

Haven't gotten to that yet, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't. The Ebon Hawk is in this game too.

KoToR2 plays almost exactly like the first, down to the same engine, mechanics, character building, etc.. I'm sure there are tweaks and improvements here and there, but I don't remember enough about the first one to offer any real details. Noticable differences are the story (obviously) and the added depth to good and evil choice making. It's a little more open ended than the first one.

Now if it was any other game, I'd probably wouldn't be too thrilled about it being so similar to it's predecessor. But this is KoToR (YMMV).

Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/kotor2/review.html) gave it an 8.5. Grain of salt, etc.

I'd say that was accurate. It's not 9 material due to it being so much like the first, but it's still just as good. KoToR fans will be happy at least.

Hmmm, I'd heard that Character building at least had a few new twists - more skills, feats and subclasses ?

Yes ?  No ?

Hmm..I haven't noticed anything different really. Nothing major at least. Though the manual does mention one thing that comes later on down the line: "Jedi Forms"...What they are exactly I don't know yet (stances I presume). Some are only good for sabers, some for force powers.

There's kind of a "crafting" feel to workbenches as well. You can break items down, or build items up from different components.
 
One other thing worth mentioning is that you start out as a Jedi (either Guardian, Consular, or Sentinel). No need to gimp yourself with non-Saber related or Force skills this time around.

Same skills as last time, there are more feats, more force powers ( some that can only be gained through achieving quests or becomming respected enough by your followers, it also adds  11 lightsaber "forms" ( fighting styles ) though you supposedly can only learn 7 of them.

The Subclasses are prestige classes, Sith Assasin, Jedi Weaponmaster etc.

Enjoying the game alot so far, being a fan of the first Kotor I'm glad Obsidian decided to only do minor tweaks to the gameplay.

Thank Christ.  Why more Star Wars games don't do this is beyond me.  It's like the Jedi Knight games; if I wanted to play some guy with a gun I'd play any other shooter out there, thanks.  Gimme the goddamned light saber already.

Heh, took me about 10 hours of gameplay before I got my lightsaber. Still, modified blasters and vibroswords will go a long way when you have force powers to back them up.

I just left Peragus (first planet). My take, without spoilers:

Good game, although KOTOR1 was better,  mostly because of initial story. The Peragus story seems to start weak. Also, there are MANY more bugs. Nothing game-breaking, but things like there seems to be no pathfinding algorithm whatsoever (characters will sometimes just walk straight into things and keep walking forward and not moving), and just other minor things. Also, Peragus seems to have more puzzles. Note to Obsidian: Star Wars is NOT a puzzle environment. There's only two or three, that adventure-gamers wouldn't even consider puzzles, but it took me a little while to switch off the action part of the brain and turn on the thinking part of the brain.

All in all: If you like RPGs, Star Wars, or KOTOR, definitely pick it up. If you don't really care, it's not a game that will get you into the universe of genre, but it's still a good one overall.

That part was easy, ya just had to fire a little ahead of the enemy ships/

Yea, yea I know it was ridiculously simple for anyone with any experience at all with shooters but I don't play them and I haven't got the hand-eye coordination to even want to learn to do it. In the original Kotor it always took me two or three tries to get past those and it really pissed me off.

A little tip to get past the shooting part of KOTOR really fast is to just start hitting the shoot button and moving the trigger left and right a very little bit.  I think my fastest time was like 4 seconds to shoot down all the ships.  I agree it was fun at first, but after a while I wanted to rip my hair out.

So back to KOTOR2,

I'm wondering if I should make this a holiday present request.  I enjoyed KOTOR quite a bit (the week that I played it), and was looking forward to this game.  Should I rent it? (I'm a binge gamer).

You do know that every single console system is nothing but an outdated PC put into a box?

For a list of the changes I've seen so far:

More feats: I particularly like the ones to make cross-class skills class skills so they only cost one skill point to raise instead of two.

Prestige classes: Jedi Weapon Master is the one I'm aiming for

More "Crafting": In the first game you could upgrade items. Now you can actually create items from medpacs all the way to blaster rifles.

Interesting NPC "powers": By this I mean that the NPCs give you bonuses while in your party. The old Jedi woman gives a bonus to some skills while in your party. The Carth-like character cannot be knocked out unless he is the only party member standing. I am hoping all characters will do this, as choosing characters will then become even more strategic.

Influence over NPCs: Probably the most hyped aspect of the sequel. For instance, the Carth clone seems to like it when I calm him down and give us plans for how to deal with our current situation.

I haven't gotten far enough to see if there is anything else new but this is what I noticed in the opening parts of the game.

And that many people buy them because they are much easier to use, play a game and then put it up than a PC is?

Let's not forget the pricetags when it comes to consoles vs PC. I paid more for my latest graphics card then my Xbox, PS2 and GC combined.

You think? I kinda like this guy (Atten..or Atton, I forget), he's a smartass scoundrel. Carth was just a whiny bitch.



You could beat it in a couple rentals I think. Maybe one (if you really are binge). You'll get at least two games out of it though (Dark or Light), so it may be better to wait for a price drop and just buy it.

But anyways, if you're asking if it's fun, then yeah, it's KoToR. But like KoToR1, it'll eventually end. I haven't played Bloodlines yet (maybe you have?), but if what everyone says is true, it looks like it'll be a better purchase right now as far as story-driven games go.

No.  Bloodlines starts strong story but ends very very weak.  i think kotor will be the opposite, slow out of the gate then it'll pick up but that part of course is just speculation.

Bloodlines? not worth 49.99, game crashing bugs, story driven plot turns into non-stop fight sequence for the last 1/4 of the game and really bad graphic/audio glitches throughout that break immersion non-stop.

This is 2004 and PCs are as easy to use out of the box as consoles. I personally don't think there are more than very few computer-illiterate console users. Computers and consoles are both power up and use, that is unless you are complicating things by fiddling with hardware or software on ether of them. I’d go as far as claiming that majority of console users own or have ready access to a computer that is equal or better machine than consoles they use.

When compared to consoles computers have more functionality, better hardware, better controllers and HDTV output as a standard.

Every time potentially good title like DeusEx2 gets tanked or good title like KoTOR falls short of greatness due to being designed with console limitations in mind I want to kill every single console user by sodomizing them with their ass-backwards controllers. Great games could only be made for PCs.

Not to mention I don't have to worry if my video card is up to date every time I buy a new X-Box game.  I neevr find myself haviong to turn off textures to make things run smoother, either.

I have a PC I game on as well, sinij, and yeah, it's easy to use a PC as a game machine.  It also means that you'll be spending money on upgrades all the time as the newer PC games come out with higher requirements, that is, unless you want to run at lower resolutions, or with less textures, or what have you, and at that point, you might as well be running on a current generation console.  Now, with a top of the line computer, todays more demanding games look LIGHTYEARS ahead of anything my Xbox could ever do.  As they should, for the price you're paying to keep that hardware up to date.

Both Consoles and PCs have their merits for gaming, and personally, I can't imaine ever having to choose only one, but consoles definitely win out fo rthe "Ease Of Use" award.

It boils down to following - if you can design simpler games for standardized hardware instead of trying to innovate for broad range of hardware configurations a PC can have and still sell your games at a full price why bother innovate?

Consoles kill innovation and you are supporting it by paying full price for not up to state-of-the-art games.

Wrong.

It comes down to this:

Consoles price v. performance is an order of magnitude higher.

Console hardware uniformity allows devs to spend more time on the fun aspects of games vs. testing and configuration tweaking.

Console hardware uniformity allows for a much lower number of bugs.

Consoles often come with 4 controller ports.

Consoles are designed to played on a couch instead of a TV.

Consoles don't get viruses, need hard drive defragging, take 2 minutes to boot, have video card, sound card and driver problems, etc.

Innovation in PC games? Really, where? PC games have been stuck in a rut for 10 years or so. Innovation does not mean testing games on a bunch of hardware configs.

If I want to make a stupid blanket statement like you have, I would make the following:

PC games kill quality, and you are supporting that by paying full price for buggy, unfinished games.

>> Consoles price v. performance is an order of magnitude higher.

Economy computers cost less then price of a console, TV and adequate set of controllers. ‘Order of magnitude higher’ only happens when you compare top-of-the-line PC to console and forget to include cost of TV and good controllers. You also forget to include cost of all additional functionality PC has over console.

>> Console hardware uniformity allows devs to spend more time on the fun aspects of games vs. testing and configuration tweaking.

Testing and development are two different things, if your developers doing testing of your codes you are horribly mismanaging your project.

>> Console hardware uniformity allows for a much lower number of bugs.

Following software engineering practices, realistic deadlines and sufficient testing man-hours allow for a much lower number of bugs, hardware has very little to do with it.

>> Consoles often come with 4 controller ports.

My PC has adequate controllers out of the box, for consoles you need to buy yours and they cost a lot more than top of the line PC stuff.

>> Consoles don't get viruses, need hard drive defragging, take 2 minutes to boot, have video card, sound card and driver problems, etc.

As long as you only play games on your computer they also don’t get any of the problems you list. It is other, non-gaming uses of a PC that cause these problems.

Well first off, you don't buy a TV expressly to play Console games. You buy a TV for watching it, watching DvDs, and also to play consoles on. Secondly, you get one controller, the second usually costs $50. If it is a brand new console you're probably looking at $350-400 dollars total. This is not taking into account console price drops over time. The cheapest store-bought PC I've ever seen is $500.



Hardware has alot to do with it. Raise your hand if you've never played a PC game and had to tweak something in your hardware to get it to work right? I see no hands. Hardware issues is about the only thing I don't hold devs totally accountable for simply because of the 999999999999 variations possible.



The only one this doesn't apply to is viruses. With games you still have to defrag, have potentail hardware problems etc.  And if you're only using your PC for games, it undoes alot of your other arguments about utility.

Don't get me wrong, I love PCs. I just find your anti-console slant to be misinformed and a little irrational.

Heh, been playing some more today, and I'm going to have to say this again. Atten just cracks me up. Lol, what an asshole. Not exactly HK quality material (and HK is in this game too), but he's funny in his own right.

As for this console vs PC thing goin' on here: Hey, I'm having fun. That's all that matters.

Yes, it is kind of retarded dick waving to argue about consoles vs. PC. The one that killed me was innovation though - ten years ago I might have agreed that PC games are innovative. Nowadays, how many WW2-themed FPS games do you need to get the hint that innovation is lacking? 20? 50?

PC games span a MUCH MUCH narrower range of genres than they did 5 or 10 years ago. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

So better than the first? Worse? After PoP2, I demand excellence.

It's as good as the first; the NPC interaction is better. There's no outright loser NPCs although some are awfully similar. And most you can upgrade into VERY useful versions (saying more would be spoilerish).

It's tuned to a higher level - after 3 planets my characters were all in the level 16-18 range and plowing through enemies like candy. Does give a very heroic Star Warsy feel.

The light and dark sides are almost different games. Well, you follow the same main quest, but for different reasons, actions, and with some different party members.

Grand Theft Auto 3, sports games like ESPN NFL 2k5 and Zelda Wind Walker are over here telling me how wrong you are. Consoles don't kill innovation; profiteering publishers who want to make more money off the same basic game kill innovation.

Not to mention unintelligent consumers who are afraid of trying anything new, and only want companies to make for them more of the same product over and over.  You have those on consoles and PC alike, though.

Same as the profiteering publishers.

But this is the reason why Madden had thousands more pre-orders than Katamari Damacy.

Well, second off, I don't buy a PC expressly to play PC games.

But then you run the risk of getting viruses, and have to defrag!

OH WAIT!  We're going in circles now, aren't we.

Maybe Haemish was responding to a guy who was advocating ONLY buying a PC for gaming purposes?

My PC makes me 1000's of dollars a month AND plays games.

Can a console do this? (http://xoxide.com/xray1.html)

Although I think its saying more for the console that it can't.[/url]

You can use that accessory on a console, but you'll get banned from X-Box Live if you do.

/rimshot

I am someone who owns both consoles and a PC, and play games on both. Neither is better than the other. PC's are, however, losing ground to consoles in the game department for a lot of reasons, most of which involve consoles making more money per unit than PC games ever will, as well as development being easier on a console because of the standardized hardware.

PC gaming is a niche.

Careful, Haemish. You're going to make Sinij's head explode.

Haven't we alraedy had this argument about a dozen times over the last few years?  I thought that by this point everyone understood this to be true.

 Just because it's niche doesn't mean it's bad.  It just means you're going to see fewer and fewer games released initialy to the PC.  Or at least fewer that don't follow the online/ subscription model which is getting to be an ever-increasing number compared to stand-alones.  Yes, I count HL2 & Guildwars under that banner, since both are useless coasters without an internet connection.

One thing I've noticed about console games is that, perhaps due to the reduced development cost, there seems to be considerably more creativity on them.   About 95% of PC games are Just_Another_FPS, Just_Another_RTS, or Just_Another_Remake of some other kind.   Not to say that the console games are totally immune to cloning, just that it's far more common for me to come across a new and interesting game concept on a console game than a PC game.

Hey, I'm not one to police threads, epecially those not my own, but how about we talk about KoToR? Y'know, the topic of the thread?

Anyways, anyone have any luck influencing Kreia? I'll be damned if I can get her to agree with anything I say (well, maybe a couple times). Playing Light side right now, but it seems like even the smallest act of kindness has her bitching and lecturing me about it. I wonder if she's as much trouble if you play the Dark side. Is she supposed to represent balance, or do I have to accept everything she says, even when I believe her to be wrong, since this is more of a Master/Apprentice relationship?

Remember, don't get to spoiley without warning (I'm getting it for xmas I think).  And yes, get this fucker back on target.  Enough with the the console v. pc crap.  It does not need to be brought up in every topic that lends itself to the debate.

I won't try to spoil too much. Actually, about all I have left to say is that I haven't really pulled myself away from it since Friday night. Same thing happened when I played the first, but I think I'm getting into this one even more. Yeah, it starts off a little slow, but starts kicking in soon enough. Definitely worth buying in case you had doubts.

To answer your question would spoil the later parts of the game for you.

In general kowtowing to Kreia will give you small influence adjustments. She also is True Neutral in D&D terms so will get pissed off if you do good or evil (the evil chastisement in particular cracked me up - "Must your every impulse be psychotic?" when you whack an innocent) but you can usually stem the influence loss by kissing up to her in the ensuing conversation.

Any more would be spoilers, but trust me, you will find out her story eventually no matter what. My light side guy didn't put up with any crap from her when she yelled at me for righting the universe's wrongs, and I was still able to get enough influence by being respectful about it to get the occasional backstory from her. There's a cut scene that's pretty easy to get that should let you know enough of her past to answer most questions. ("So are you Sith or Jedi?" is the conversation starter, I think.)

BTW, I had to restart because the game erases all your save games when you start a new game. Without telling you. RAGE.

Do I get a hot Jedi lovemomma and a homicidal droid again?  'Cuz that's what I want.

Yes to both, although I was too daft to get the super cool HK droid because I missed a very obvious thing in a bunch of very obvious places.

Praise the risen Lord!  February can't come fast enough.

I have never gotten a virus, and will never get one.  Nor do I own virus software.  It's easy to avoid viruses if you do a couple of things.  One, stay patched.  Two, don't execute files you get on the net, inc. email.

One is a bit of a downside.  On the other hand however, I get to patch.  I find that a bonus, not a hinderance.

Unless you're talking about some other bug, you didn't lose your character. It's just a weird interface.

When you go to the load screen, press X to scroll through to the character you want to load. I thought I had the same problem at first, but it uses different load screens for different characters.

It just looks like it deletes the old ones because it defaults to the last character played.

Ah thanks Roac, I needed a good chuckle this morning.  Thats kind of like the guy who doesn't wear his seatbelt because he knows he's a good driver and he services his car regularly.

Just on a lark, why don't you hit trendmicro.com and run their free virus scan. See what pops up.



So, I take it you never download anything then.

Another method is to not have a computer, you know.

I'm trying topicture the kind of person who would give your sort of response, and just can't do it.  I mean, with viruses being such a big issue in the world, do you really think they are so easily avoidable just by patches alone?  If you take Bunk up on going to that site, I'd like to see what you come back with.

[MILD SPOILER] I won't go into any details, so not really.

k...I finally ran into something worth bitching about. Whoever designed the puzzles in this game needs to be kicked in the nuts. Codebreaking does not belong in this game imo. I don't mind a few Myst-like puzzles, or ones based on using specific teammates, or teamwork, but I fucking hate this scrambling/codebreaking shit.

The least they could do is provide some graphics associated with them...maybe add more "action" to it...something. Don't just show me a string of jumbled numbers and letters and tell me I have to decrypt. Being forced to sit back and stare at numbers and letters, trying to figure out some algorithm just spoils all the fun. I just want to be a Jedi you assholes.

The fact it's the only way to advance through the storyline (not optional) pisses me off even more. That's just contrary to spirit of the game. Bioware didn't put crap like this in the first KoToR, and I don't think they would have if they had made this one.

P.S. I'm not stupid, I'm just lazy.

Note: I haven't read anything else in this thread for fear of spoilers.

So far I'm pretty impressed. The dialog is better than KOTOR's, the voice acting is at least as good, the graphics are better (framerate nonwithstanding), and the balances made to the gameplay no longer render the rogue-ish characters totally fucking worthless, or make one or two force powers the only ones you need.

Not a bad sequel by any means. Too bad the PC version won't come with the modified NWN toolset they used to build it.

Actually, there were a couple online MENSA test style puzzles in the original.

If you have a character with high intelligence the game will hold your hand through the puzzles.

Woohoo. . cryptoquizzes.  Can't wait until the PC version comes out.  You could have an entire game consisting of nothing but word puzzles set in the Old Republic setting and I'd be stoked.

"Your command of the Force is impressive Darth Foobar, but you cannot hope to defeat my Death Rebus"

Hmm, I don't remember them, but I guess it's been awhile.

[Another Mild Spoiler]

Anyways, the quest I'm talking about has to be played by a droid in solo mode. He has the highest intelligence out of my whole team, but it isn't making any difference. So it's up to me really. I'm sure it isn't anything, but I hate doing it. Especially after coming off the ride where I kicked an entire legion of....

Uh nevermind :)

EDIT: Silly me. Needless to say, but it's more openended than I thought. Pointless bitching on my part, sorry. Oh well, back to *mindless* button mashing for me.

No, I always wear it.  What a shitty analogy.  You don't know much about how viruses are transmitted, do you?



Yeah, have known about that site for years.  Have never gotten a virus.  My workplace has, but not my PC.  Go figure, eh?



If I don't know exactly what it is, and where it's comming from - no.  If I ever have a shred of doubt, trend is my first stop.

There are two main ways viruses spread.  One, a user stupidly runs one sent to him, usually through email.  Two, they exploit vulnerabilities in the computer.  Such vulnerabilities, when discovered, are issued a patch almost instantly from MS.  Almost every recent large virus outbreak has, in fact, resulted in the virus author looking at what the patch fixes, and then writing a virus to exploit it; thus, if you remain patched, you're fine.

I'm about 35 hours into the game and I haven't encountered a single puzzle that you were forced to do. There were a few that gave you some nifty stuff and some xp, but for thoose required ones there's always been the option to bash open the lock or blow up the terminal etc.

Yeah, I made a mistake. Maybe I am stupid after all.

I won't be playing this until a PC version arrives (solely because I refuse to pay for an out-of-date PC in a black and green box just to play games with terrible input devices on an ultra low resolution monitor).

However, the test for whether it's worthy, has to be, would the story make a better star wars film than the actual star wars films other than ESB?

I've had bowel movements that would make for better Star Wars films than Ep1 and Ep2.

Naturally, but bowel movements rarely outdo RotJ or SW itself.

RotJ before the Ewoks appear or after?

All RotJ had was a bunch of muppets.

In fairness, so did The Muppet Show and I loved that.

Indeed, everything Muppet related rules.  Especially the queen of trash.

I haven't played this yet, but I did look at the pages and pages of credits at the back of the booklet. How did Obsidian manage to credit so many designers? From the pictures and descriptions, most of the interface and game mechanics are entirely those produced by Bioware (they get a thank you).  I'm up for designing the third KoToR if you are listening, Lucasarts.

EDIT: So, anyone else finish it yet? I just clocked in about 75 hours as a Jedi Guardian/Weapon Master (Otherwise known as "ridiculously easy" mode. Or so it was to me). Almost a week of binge gaming -- I'm kind of glad MMOG's have never really given me a good story, a purpose and something to play for, like a good single player game can. I'd probably catass my life away.

Hmm...I've still got time to spare too (What can I say? Work is slow..Scratch that...Almost non-existent this month). So what next? Go back to WoW, get Bloodlines, or play again, this time as Dark Side?

One thing's for sure: If I do play again, it'll be as a Consular. Supposedly it's more challenging. And as much as I enjoyed the experience, I highly recommend not to play as a Guardian. KoToR1 had the same problem with strong lightsaber users. Combat is just too easy that way. By the end there, I could take out 10 or so Dark Jedi's and Siths without one hit point loss, all in a matter of seconds, using Stasis and Flurry. Bosses? Pathetic. It was kind of sad to see the story prop up some of these adversaries, and then watch my character strike them down in an instant.

Anyways, besides all that, the story still holds up until the end. It also addresses some issues that have never been told before in a Star Wars setting...So it's unique in it's own right. *If* this was a $100 million movie, I think it'd be just as good, if not better than ESB. But even as a simple game, with far less production value, I'm still just as entertained.

Also, as much as I wanted to hate her at first, I'd have to say that Kreia is one of the most deep and well written characters I've seen in a video game. But it wasn't just the writing. Like the first, they hired some talented people who could capture these characters perfectly. It helped that they added several recognizable actors in this one though -- Kelly Hu, Nicky Katt, Roger G. Smith, Ed Asner -- but even the unknowns were good. Roger Smith (of Spike Lee fame) stands out to me though. He plays Bao-Dur, and although the character doesn't have a whole lot to say, he makes do with it. It's subtle, but very spot on. The guy made me uncomfortable every time I heard his voice.

On a side note: There's a Republic Commando demo on the disc. This game looks and feels great, even on the X-Box. I rarely give a shit about First Person Shooters these days, let alone Star Wars (except KoToR, of course) but I'm really impressed. The "fishbowl" effect is cool too. This sounds stupid, but it's feels even more "first person" than other first person shooters.

Beat it with my Lightside Sentinel/Weaponmaster. replaying it as a darkside Consular, aiming for Sith Lord ( Mainly to get my greedy little hands on Force Crush. ).

The game just screams replay value, lot's of things I know I missed the first time, and a few things I didn't even know where there.

Am I stupid or is there no ending scene?  I just beat the game lightside and saw ....************ MILD SPOILER***************









the Ebon Hawk fly into a goldish looking black hole.  Do you have to wait for the credits to end, or is that it?

No that's it. Yeah, that part was kind of cheap. I guess the "real" ending and setup for the next sequel is the conversation with Kreia before that.

Fun glitch I noticed:

At a point relatively early in the game you get to speak with a "last handmaiden".  Be nice in conversation with her, and end dialogue with her as soon as possible and you'll get light side points. Do this over and over again until you have rainbows shooting out of your ass.

Also, there's an infinite money glitch that involves this handmaiden later on I've been told. I'm not at that point yet, so I dunno if it works.

I think there was decryption, or mathematics involved in the scenario on Tatooine, where some guy's wife had him surrounded with droids that were rigged to explode.  Of course, that had nothing to do with advancing the storyline.

When I watch ROTJ, I just edit those scenes out.  Rescuing Han Solo - FUCKING COOL!  Battle for Vader's soul on the Death Star - FUCKING COOL!

Ewoks?  Eh, no thakns, I'll just fast forward through that crap.

Did you even see those "Clone Wars" shorts on Cartoon Network?  I want to play a badass clone commando now!

i havent read any other post from this thread,but all i can say is that i liked the first one,and i wanna buy the second after i finish HL2.

So.......uhm...yeah

Okay, I confirmed it, the unlimited money trick actually works. HOO-RAY

Here's how you do it:

As soon as the "handmaiden" joins you and you're on the Ebon Hawk:

1. Spar with her and win/lose.
2. Put your armor back on.
3. Ask the handmaiden to put some clothes back on.
4. Tell her you disagree when she responds.
5. End the conversation after she puts on her robes.
6. Open the equipment menu and hit the black button until her equipment comes up.
7. Remove the robe.

Repeat 3-7 over and over and over again until you have as many as you need. The robes sell for about 2200 creds apiece.

Got this over the Christmas break.  This game is good, very good.  I don't know what it is, but Bioware just makes games that are damn near perfect for me.   If this wasn't a rehash, it'd get my Game of the Year vote for '04.  As is, it surpasses Halo 2 for best Xbox game.

Combat is good, if a tad too easy once you've got a couple Jedi swinging around lightsabers.  I never really tried out the Master Speed/Master Flurry combo in the last one.  It's like Jedi turbo ginsu.   They did a good job challenging you early on, but I just think it gets to a point where you're just too goddamn powerful to be countered by much.  At least they upped the resistance rate on stasis field.  It's only really a game over spell on dumb beasts.

The dialog is just excellent. I love it when games actually feature excellent voice acting and well/cleverly written dialog. There's a lot of it too.  Kreia is just an amazing character.  

I really love the light/dark play and the decisions you have to make.  Going dark in my next game is really going to be a big mind trip for me.  Fuck, being this good has been difficult in itself.  Trying to gain influence with some characters can be difficult as well.   Mira is proving especially difficult.  

If not for the glitches, this game would be damn near perfect. It's the first game to ever lock up my xbox.  I've also come across a lot of quest glitches, and one that's prevented me from even finishing a certain quest.

*spoilerish*

Apathy is death.  Apathy is death.  Apathy is death.  Wow, A game that fucks me over for being a big wuss.  That temple was a nice mind trip.  

Kreia is starting to creep me out too.  She goes from passive good, to indifferent, to selfish, to downright manipulative evil. I can't wait to see how this all turns out.  Just got to palace assault on Onderon, I figure I'm a little over than half in.  

I think I missed a piece of HK.  I can't find the damn whatever cluster he needs.  Pitty, but I don't think he'd fit in well with my goodie, goodie party.

*spoilerish*

Actually, it's not Bioware who did this one, some shop called Obsidian did it.  That might explain a bit of the "rehash" feel and the lockup bugs, etc.



*spoilerish*






I think I missed the same part, Rasix.  It might be the one you can buy from droid part vendors.  I never found one that I could loot, and aside from a few doors I could never open, I think I looted everything on my first playthru.

*spoilerish*

Ahh yes, Obsidian. Forgot it wasn't actually Bioware this time. And I guess that could excuse some of the buginess.  



*spoilerish*

Acutally, I just looked at a faq.  It appears I got two of the exact same part.  Or it installed one part as the other.  Because I've gotten all 4 parts from the exact 4 places this person listed.

Ohh well, I wanted to hear "meatbag" at least once.

*spoilerish*

*spoilerish*



Well over at that other site, it seems that it's possible to get him activated.  Bug?  Hrm, I guess I'll have to check the FAQ and hope that this time around, I manage to get him up and running.  Still on the first world after the mining station, working on my dark side char.  Have done the first part install from the HKs you kill on Peragus.  

Oh yeah, and btw, just wait for the Kreia stuff to get way way neater.


*spoilerish*

Just get him when you play Dark Side. You'll get more out of him that way, and leaving it undone is one more reason to look forward to when replaying.

Mira's actually pretty easy.  You can get all the influence you need just by talking to her on the Ebon Hawk.  I was lightside though, so maybe it has some effect.  I also had a persuade skill of about 20, though I can't remember if I had to use it on her or not.

For darksiders, I hear there is also benefits to be had by having extremely low influence with characters.  You want one extreme or the other.

If you mean the story is good *until* the end, then starts to fall apart, I have to agree.  The Force is something best left vague ("May the Force be with you").  When they try to start fleshing it out, it sounds more and more ridiculous.  This has been the case in Episodes I & II, and the Star Wars novels I have read.  Now I am adding KOTOR2 to that list, although the first 80% of the story is quite good.  They lost me at the end.

*Spoilers*******************



A Sith Lord kills everybody on a planet at once just by using his mastery of the force to kill everybody that is force-sensitive.  WTF?  How does that work?  And then when you go up against him, you beat him down like a red-headed step-child in about 5 seconds.

He got his power by learning the Hunger skill or something?  What in the damned hell does that mean?  The only one that made any sense was Betrayal.

I also couldn't wrap my brain around how Exile was going to be used to "kill" the force.

Am I the only one that feels this way?  I do have to say that the first 80% of the story or so was excellent.  It just kind of crumbled due to infeasibilities.  And it has nothing on KOTOR I's story, although the gameplay is much improved.

**** End Spoilers *********





"You threaten one of my friends with a lightsaber, and you expect me to just stand by and do nothing?"  Then with a threatening whisper that dripping with wrath: "No."  That's my most memorable line of spoken dialog.

I also love the smart-assed and evil comments you can make in the diolog.  "Stay here, Atton.  We need somebody to soak up the blaster fire."

"But you can't blaim me!  I was tricked!"
"Actually, I can blaim you.  Painfully.

"Thank you for saving me.  I suspected her of treachery, but was waiting for her to show her hand"
"Don't thank me.  You're next."

"Thank you for saving me!"
"You may still be in danger if you prove to be useless to me."

I think the best is when you use Mind Domination to trick some thugs into jumping to their deaths, then convincing Atton that was an act of the lightside to gain influence.

Hrm, I had all the parts I needed to activate him after just 2 of the 4 stops looking for jedi masters.  His Assasin Protocols at high level plus a keen, massive critical weapon and master critical shot skill is a joy to behold. Plus the commentary of course...Meatbag.

Not asking for any spoilers but does this game exceed level 20?  I've only done Dxun/Onderon and Nar Shadaa (current back to Dxun and the split missions) and I've got a full group of npc's at lvl 18 and up.  I should have a long ways to go yet..

Xilren

You'll max out somewhere around 27-29

Spoilers
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He fed off the force. His power was a larger version of a darkside power that is mentioned in novels and such that feeds off of life. It'll kill insects and such. His was taken to the extreme and as well he had no control over it. He was able to kill the entire planet because the entire planet was force sensitive.

The Exile is able to beat him because of his unique nature which is explicitly described by the Jedi towards the end of the game. Actually, not long before this fight.



See above for him. Pain was blatantly obvious when you look at the Sith Lord who had it. He basically drew power from pain, his own and others. Which makes a hell of a lot of sense when you think about the nature of the force as described in the movies and novels. Remember, the force reacts to emotion, and pain is one hell of a way to cause emotion.




The exiles unique power was that he focused the force around him. It's how your NPCs could become Jedi. Malachor V was  destroyed and it cuased a huge disturbance in the force. This was made worse because alot of Jedi died in its destruction. The way the Exile could destroy the force was by magnifying this disturbance. It was said that he was able to survive the destruction by essentially blindning hijmself to the force. If he were to magnify this disturbance it'd overwhelm all force users in the galaxy and none of them would be able to survive it.

All of this is again explained in great detail, it even speaks of the disturbance as waves that could be magnified and cause a sort of interference pattern throughout the force.

I don't know. I know alot of people had issues with the plot, especially with understanding it. My primary reaction was "that's freaking cool, I never thought of that before".

Spoilers
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Did anyone else here find Darth Sion's voice a little funny? I mean, I thought he was bad ass, but never before have I heard a Scotsman sound so dark and weary.



I enjoyed the story too. More than the first, because it was alot more mature and philosophical. Some people just don't like wrapping their heads around that kind of thing though, whether it be movies or music, but probably even moreso with games. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just that some people tune out when all they want is to be entertained.

I also liked how they tied the game mechanics into the actual plot. I know I've seen it before in other games, but I can't think of any off the top of my head atm. In KoToR 2's case, they use standard mechanic in all party based RPG's -- how your party attacks whoever you attack, and follows where ever you go -- to illustrate how you influence these characters in the force, how they have no will of their own around you. It's pretty clever.

Gimme a call.

********SPOILERS CAVEAT: Ok, skip this entire post if you haven't finished KOROT 2 yet.  In fact, it's probably best to stop reading this thread if you haven't already.)*******




That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  If he couldn't control his hunger, why didn't his apprentice die?  I remember the plot bringing up this question, but I don't recall it getting resolved.  And does that mean that any Jedi besides his apprentice that gets too close to him just drops dead, or what?  I know that's not the actual case because I had an all-Jedi party when I attacked him.





His special skill is that he forms bonds and is able to control the force through other force-sensitives.  That's said to be why he was able to face Darth Nihilus (or however you spell it).  What about the other Jedi (besides Visas) in the party then?  Why didn't they just keel over?





That's entirely plausible.  Good explanation.




The Exile didn't transfer the force to others.  He parasited force-use off of existing force users.  The reason they were all able to become Jedi is because they all happened to be force-sensitive to begin with.

I know how the story explained he could be used to kill the force.  But even then, it sounded whack.  I guess when trying to outdo themselves for the surpreme job they did on Revan, they really had to dig deep.  But IMHO, they did themselves a disservice.





I have to question this too.  And I'm by no means an expert, and I'm not inclined to become one.  But since I'm trying to clear up the storyline, I find it unlikely that Treia was trying to kill all force sensitive people, everywhere.  Her full discloser at the end of the game reveals Revan's mission and her desire to see him succeed.  It's highly unlikely that she would be out to destroy all force-sensitive peoples, as it would render his mission moot.  Then again, destroying the force would render his mission moot, too.  Is it a plot hole?  Or is it that it was yet another one of her tools of manipulation to get the Exile to do what she wanted him to?

I've actually been batting around the idea that Treia was acting on Revan's behalf.  (Whether this was at his behest, or her own inititive is unclear, but I believe the later to be the case.)  I believe she was training Exile to follow Revan into the outer worlds to give him any aid he required.  I believe Malachor V was less an epic confrontation with the Sith Lords than it was the completion of his training.  

Treia obviously spoke with Revan before he went on his journey.  He sought her out before he left the Order to fight in the Mandalorian wars, and I believe he did it again when he left on his unknown mission.  Treia had more knowledge of Mandalore's mission than Mandalore did (she knew that Revan would give him an assignment and then disappear, but Mandalore was surprised and felt abandoned when he did), which implies that she had some knowledge of his strategy.

Carth was charged by Revan with keeping the Republic intact.  T3 and HK-47 were given the Ebon Hawk, presumably to find somebody that could aid him in the future, possibly the Exile specifically.  (It's unlikely that Revan would have forgotten his best general, after all).  Perhaps they and the ship accompanied him originally, but some set of circumstances forced Revan to send them back to the Republic.

But Treia... was she also given a great task by Revan, the Master Strategist?  Or did her foresight tell her what needed to be done?




At least for me, it's not so much that I don't understand it, but that it sounds crazy.  They can explain away anything because they are the one writing the rules, but they should try to keep it plausible.

Out of curiosity, what did you find to be more mature and philisophical about it?  The first one is packed with both, not to mention a great dosage of irony.

More grey areas, I guess. The first one didn't have a Kreia.

To touch on your questions to Riggs about Kreia: I was under the impression that she didn't know exactly what Revan was up to, and her interests with the main character were mainly personal -- to get revenge on Sion and Nihilius.

True.  She was probaby operating at her own behest.  She was clearly fond of Revan, though.  Sion even remarked that she is seeking to train one as great as her first.  And she reveals to the Exile that she didn't follow Revan because he didn't ask her too, implying that she would have at least entertained it, though giving no specific answer.

Wait.

I know that you get Jedi NPCs (well Kreia and the Sith chick).  But are you saying that if my influence with someone is high enough, I can make them into a Jedi?

Is my using auto-level for the others hosing me here?  I mean, I finished it as a ridiculous light-side saint (with the light mastery bonus) and nobody turned into a jedi.

I played light side as well, but that has no effect on it. It comes through the dialog options. I opened up force powers in Mira and I could have opened them up with Handmaiden (but chose not to since it would have pissed off Kreia..For some reason I didn't want to bother with).

I opened up Mira's powers pretty late in the game, so her lightsaber skills were subpar. But she made one kick ass Jedi using stasis/push and duel pistols. I had no idea how well that could work.

I figured that Atton is a possible option for female characters. I'm not so sure about males. He finally started revealing some of his past experiences with Jedi, which hinted that I might have been able to, but my influence with him made him shut up at a certain point.

To answer your question about NPCs becoming Jedi:

I did it with Atton and the Handmaiden. It is possible to do with Bara-dur and Mira as well.

Only Mandalore, the droids, and probably Hanharr cannot become Jedi.

Which is a shame, because there's something to be said for a homicidally insane wookie Sith.

Well the key is that Krei said he doesn't control his power. It controls him. I saw it as blindly lashing out anytime he was hungry. As for his apprentice, remember, she followed the exile because her pain was similiar to his. My theory is that of all characters, Visas is closest to the Exile in how she interacts with the force.





Because it isn't an attack power so much as..hunger. Heh. I mean, if you played that character it wouldn't be a power you could switch on, it'd activate at certain moments without your control. You'd probably have a meter that slowly emptied that had to be refilled once in awhile. At least, that is how I took Visas explanation and Kreia's explanation.




I probably didn't explain it well enough. I didn't say he transferred it., I said he focused it. He magnified it and used it for his own ends and also sort of "Activated" other people's latent powers. As well he was sort of a magnet for force-users, at least those in his vicinity. I don't believe they "Happened" to be force sensitive, so much as he attracted those who were.

As for how he could be used, it's one of those things that you have to sort of view the force as a combination mystical energy field and scientific phenomena. You have to sort of take on faith that a person like the Exile, if placed at the right place could cause a bad "Resonance".





I'm not sure she wished that either. I think she was trying to convince the Exile of that because she wanted him to come to Malachor. It was all about him and her really. In him, she saw a chance to answer her own questions and in the end, she also wished to finish his training, one way or the other.

In fact, I found it hard to dislike her as a villain. I think she had more in mind than what the game was truly able to convey. I think she wanted to train the Exile, and send him to help Revan,. and she didn't care why the Exile did it, or what path he followed, as long as she got her "job" done.



Personally, I think Treia has a damn good idea what Revan's new mission is and she believes he needs help. I think she also wanted the Exile to plant seeds of a new order, whether Jedi or Sith, just in case. And yes, Malachor V was indeed the completion of his training. In fact, after I finished the game I was left with a definite Empire Strikes Back vibe, in that it was about the growth of this character, rather than an epic confrontation. It truly felt like the middle part of a trilogy.



Speaking of Mandalore, I love the subtle jibe at Boba Fett in Kreia's vision of the future. I think they did indeed have a further talk, and it may have been that talk that led to Kreia finding the Exile. I think Revan knew she'd teach him and was willing to take a chance that the Exile would make his own choice in the end. (light side interpretation of course)



I found T3 extremely fascinating in this game. Did you notice that he held perhaps more secrets than any other member of the crew in this game? I wouldn't be surprised if game 3 starts with T3 plotting a course for where Revan is. In fact, I think T3 knows where Revan is, though he has blocked that memory off in some manner.

Bastilla was left behind because Revan feared emotional attachments. Kreia told me that I'd leave my love interest behind for the same reason. (Hand maiden in my case).



I think she acted to help Revan on her own accord. It's just an opinion though.

That's pretty dumb if they want to stay true to the continuity.  Don't they remember Skippy the Jedi Droid?

(http://www.wizards.com/global/images/starwars_article_sw20040729counseling_pic1_en.jpg)

Either way, it sounds like the third installment may be better than the previous two. Revan and the Exile starting a war with the "real" Sith? Sounds great (let's just hope they upgrade the engine for this one).

Ok, I just finished the game.  My WoW addiction kept me at Malachor for a week or two just waiting to do it.  Now, I think I fucked up somewhere.  Was I supposed to do the entirety of Malachor solo?  It just wouldn't let others into my group at any time what-so-ever.  Ohh well, it wasn't difficult beyond having to kill Darth Zombie 4 times.

The romance thing was interesting.  I guess officially I hooked up with Visas although I spent nearly no time with her.  I thought I was actively pursuing Handmaiden through all of it and really spent the most time with her dialog options.   I guess once I decided to "look upon" Visas, the die was cast.

I never did get Mira or Bao-dur to go Jedi.  Guess I just missed the boat with them.  And I didn't get Mandalore = Canderous until the end. I don't like missing out on semi-major plot points based on some conversation trees I seemed to be locked out of.

I liked the ending to KOTOR.  This ending and end in general just left me feeling empty and unfufilled.  Fuck, it has me not wanting to immediately replay as a dark jedi.  Plus, I like Mira, I'm not sure I want to deal with having a wookie in my party.  I hate wookies.

Very similar ending for me.  I felt like I had missed several major plot points with Baro-Dur and the Shadow Generators and G0t0.  Never even heard of the things until I have to roam around as that ball droid activating engines.  WTF? Whole ending felt rushed and rather anti-climatic.

Apparently I didn't do my dialogues right either as I never got any of my henchman to go jedi, nor did I get Atton to admit he was a jedi killing bastard, nor the whole Mandalore=Canderous thing.  I thought I had talked exhaustively to ever npc each time I was on my ship but apparently not nearly enought influence.  Maybe I need to play with more npcs in party as I usually just grabbed Kreia and the astromech droid.

Still, on the whole, fun game.  Redoing it as a dark jedi force bitch now.

Xilren

FYI, Obsidian ≈ Black Isle Studios, FTW

Mandalore is Canderous... I missed that completely.  I do agree though, when Revan comes back it is going to be great.

Wow really? I never used him, so I missed that too....

Oh well, I thought Canderous was a forgettable character anyway in KotOR. My parties for that game consisted of:

Light Side: Myself-Bastilla-Carth, Myself-Bastilla-Mission, Myself-Bastilla-Jolee

Dark Side: My evil chickie-Bastilla-HK47 (Ready to serve, Master.) [I just can resist pretending to come onto Bastilla all the time, heh].

KotORII:

Light Side: Myself (Sentinel/Watchman)-Kiera-Visas/Mira/Whoever they force me to use

Plus, seeing as weapon mods were so gimp in KotOR, canderous was nigh useless to me.

I am going to get the PC version even though I already have finished the Xbox version,  in the hope that some of the bugs have been fixed.  Yes, it is pretty good, but could have spent another couple of months in the oven.

You will literally have to play the game three times to see everything.  Seriously.  Responses are different on the "legendary" third playthough.  Still working on #2 since my wife is now playing it all the time.

Also, the ending did stink.
"Ah crap, Lucass says we have to release for the holidays!  He needs a new barn to store his neck-fat!  We don't have an intro movie or an ending!"
"Let's use this promo trailer as the intro, and let's have Wrinkle Bitch do a deus-ex-machina."  Lame.

Can't be as bad as the ending of Half-Life 2. I just sat there as the credits rolled going "Really? That's it?"

Disciple makes a much better Soldier than Jedi.