f13.net

What do you think is wrong with her?

She's fucking hot... and seems like she can kick the majority of dude's, let alone women's asses. Cool with me.

This looks fucking awful.  What will be awesome is that once it's cancelled, the slobbering Wheddonites will fall over themselves to blame Fox as opposed to the show being retarded.

She's a terrible actress. I have no problem with her being in Maxim, etc.

I haven't seen her in much unfortunately.. But I thought she stood out, in a good way, in Buffy and Angel.

What do you think is wrong with her?

She's fucking hot... and seems like she can kick the majority of dude's, let alone women's asses. Cool with me.


So it's actually canceled already? I didn't even know it aired yet.

In addition to Dushku, they've also brought in Amy Acker as part of the main cast.

Oh this show is definitely going places. It's a shame the legion of Whedonites may actually be big enough to keep this shit on the air.

You know, considering how without Whedon and Firefly, Summer Glau probably would never have been cast as Cameron.

I don't owe that campy shitbag a goddamn thing.

In fact, I'd be willing to give up terminator if it meant Whedon never got another gig in Hollywood for TV or Movies.

I'm sorry you have an irrational hatred for programming that other people enjoy and which nobody is forcing you to watch.

Actually, Whedon programming is probably the most commonly inflicted programming I have no desire to see and yet is constantly forced on me. Apparently geeks are supposed to like it or some shit.

Firefly was watchable to me. Due mostly to folks I liked prior to Firefly. But Buffy, Angel, and no doubt Dollhouse, comeon! COMEON! Nobody can like that shit as much as people say they like that shit. And I mean nobody.

Buffy was pretty good, but uneven. Angel and Firefly were great with a few bad episodes in Angel's case. Sorry if you have a sandy vagina about Whedon Schild. I feel the same way about shit like Lost that people rant about and don't see the big deal about JJ Abrams myself.

I like seasons 1-3 of Buffy and the last season of Angel.

I gave up on Lost. Didn't know he was involved with and haven't seen Alias. I have Season 1 laying around and planned to get to it. I'm a fair man. I'll watch Eliza Dushku simply because she's hot... Will do the same for Jennifer Garner as well. [edit] ETA on someone saying Garner looks "manly" and I call them a faggot?

She DOES look like a man.  If you call me a faggot I'll make another incest joke at your expense.   :drill:

Eh, put a lot of chicks in dreck like that and they come off worse than they should. Not saying she's a great actress, just a normal one. Shannyn Sossamon is another gorgeous woman who's been relegated to lame horrors and thrillers as well. She should be playing more quirky stuff. While Eliza Dushku probably stand out well playing tough chick roles.

Don't compare Dushku to Sossamon. The latter is watchable.

Don't compare Dushku to Sossamon. The latter is watchable. You ONLY find Dushku tolerable because you have a huge crush on her.

In the new show's premise, Dushku's character, Echo, is an "active" — someone who has volunteered to have her personality erased. Every week, the Dollhouse installs a new personality into her and sends her out on "engagements" that involve sex, violence and, often, both.

It's a surprising show from someone who, in a 2006 acceptance speech for an award he was given from the women's human rights group Equality Now, said, "The misogyny that is in every culture is not a true part of the human condition. It is life out of balance, and that imbalance is sucking something out of the soul of every man and woman who's confronted with it."

Jacki Lyden asks Whedon to explain how a show starring a young female character who has no free will isn't the ultimate misogynistic male fantasy.

"I won't necessarily say that it isn't that," Whedon says. "The fact of the matter is that, in the wrong hands, it is a completely misogynist thing, except it's happening to men as well — but what we're trying to do is take someone's identity away in order to discuss the concept of her identity."

…and while it really doesn't appeal to me, you can't say this one has been done on TV before ;) :awesome_for_real:

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

Conflict is obviously the basis for drama, but there is also torturing your character. And accepting equality awards for it.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

I don't remember being a huge fan of anyone from Torchwood.  I didn't even like that show.  It's awful.  I vaguely remember thinking that the woman with the gap between her teeth wasn't ugly because of it. 

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

Wow, I never gave a thought to any of this. The premise is just supposed to be silly, I thought: Cheerleader turned vampire slayer. Not girl. Cheerleader.

Obvious lack of quality of obvious. Stray is just blinded by his love for Dushku. It's a shame really. And totally transparent.

Uhh, you're making it sound like I care that much about it. Not sure where in my post I indicated that. Hell yeah, she's hot. Doesn't mean I'm sold on the show. I'm afraid the plot lends itself to too much serializing, and being too focused on a single character, if you must know.

I wonder what the storyarc is then.. there was that dude at the end, searching for her, I guess?

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

Conflict is obviously the basis for drama, but there is also torturing your character. And accepting equality awards for it.

That said, must you guys always be extreme around here?

…and while it really doesn't appeal to me, you can't say this one has been done on TV before ;) :awesome_for_real:

On a sidenote, it's kind of interesting what a built-in "fanbase" does. Sarah Conner had 3.7 million viewers, but this show went to 4.7 (neither of which are great though).

The Whedon fanbase isn't just a fanbase. It's a collective of nerds living in a world where "good taste" doesn't even exist.

I loved Firefly but honestly, it was nothing more than Cowboy Bebop Redux…

Western in Space?  There were like 4 or 5 cartoon shows in the 80s with the exact same fucking premise

  Why would anyone spend an hour watching a terrible television show because some girl in it has nice tits? 

Everything Whedon's done has two major parts:

1.  Cool and quirky,  pop culture conscious, combining different genres (action and comedy, horror and comedy)
2.  Ham-handed allegory.


The worst example was the "Heart of Gold" episode of Firefly:  the supposed plot had something to do with a farmer/prostitute land dispute or love match on the wrong side of the tracks or something. 

It devolved into the mustache twirling misogynist villain forcing the prostitute-traitor to give him a blow job in front of his followers, to show his beliefs on sexual dominance and female empowerment, before he's killed by the plucky heroes.

I'm just ignoring the T&A discussion, but I don't see this lasting very long. I liked it. I like the actrons in it well enough. But how do you develop characters when you wipe someone's memory every episode. Whedon's strengths for writing character development and long term development, not episodic plot.

How does someone's looks make up for terrible acting?  Maybe for people who are brain dead or something.  These people you mention are terrible at what they say they do for a living.  It's like me hiring an incompetent plumber over and over again because he has a nice crack.  Hot girls are common as muck.  You can find them all over the place.  Why would anyone spend an hour watching a terrible television show because some girl in it has nice tits?  Geez.  Get some taste, you guys!

Space Rangers, LoneStar and Silver Hawks are the three I can think of. I loved Space Rangers.

You have the internet.  You can look at naked pictures whenever you like, all you like so I still don't get the watching bad tv for boobs thing.  You have so many options these days.  Why choose the one that kills brain cells and encourages untalented idiots to make bad tv?  That's a guy thing?  I'm glad luck was on my side during my conception.

Space Rangers, LoneStar and Silver Hawks are the three I can think of. I loved Space Rangers.

Is this a bad time to mention that Baywatch lasted for 11 seasons?

The episode seemed rushed. They didn't need to shove in quite as many elements as they did.

That's because this was actually the second episode so the stuff that seemed "shoved in" is actually stuff that started in the unaired Pilot.

Edit: is

Not exactly.  This episode was redone a while back after Whedon decided he wasn't going to use the Pilot anymore.

He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

She was all those things, yes, which I think reinforces my argument.

My memory of her is more of a misguided woman who was manipulated by a male figure to get what he wanted out of her. But it's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

How does that reinforce your argument? Nothing wrong with having all of those qualities because you even listed "inconsistent" as a criteria. :uhrr: Anyhow, you asked for more complicated version of female antagonist, and she summed it up.

Because it makes her so much more of the exception. Nevertheless, I never asked for complicated characters. What I want to see are female characters whose "evil" Whedon doesn't desperately try to motivate. Some people just have seriously wonky values. It doesn't always need motivating. It always stems from some experience, but we don't need all that spelled out.

I'm finding it exceedingly hard to give a shit about any of the characters or the story. I'm trying to like it, but the only two people I give a shit about are the cop and the Willow-like hottie with the lasagna living across from the FBI guy. Anyone want to lay odds that Willow-girl is an active? It's just that everyone on the show is so morally bankrupt - even the cop is enabling the entire dissolution of a person's personality. Hell, whoring the actives out in situations where the client is likely to want (and get) sex is akin to spiritual and physical rape. The whole concept of the dollhouse is so goddamn repugnant and yet the story is constantly rubbing our face in that. Alpha is the GOOD GUY. The FBI guy is the good guy, but thoroughly uninteresting - I don't blame the actor because the writing for him is terrible. I'm thinking one more episode is about all I can take unless it improves.

I think they are setting up the Dollhouse as the villain, There are no redeeming motivations behind the set-up and all the characters are too cold.  When Echo inevitably is rescued by the FBI guy (who will probably be kicked out of the FBI by then), probably with her minder in tow the story will begin for real. The story of a group of broken people trying to rediscover their old lives whilst trying to save other actives from the Dollhouse seems better.  Whether they take too long to get there and people lose interest I guess is the challenge.  The second episode was better than the first.

I agree with this. In particular, the number two guy is very clearly being setup as the villain. My guess is that the dollhouse started with some kind of ideal behind it but it's gotten perverted over time. I also think they must have some kind of government help and/or connection.

Problem being, as Trippy and others already pointed out - the entire goddamn world knows about Dollhouse and exactly what Dollhouse is up to. Except the FBI. It's going to take some pretty epic suspension of disbelief if the suggested plotline would become reality.

Which brings up a related question - obviously unrelated people can find them, otherwise they wouldn't be getting new clients like the guy in the latest episode. So they're really not acting from the shadows in any way.

No, it'd need to be something different entirely.

1) I suspect it's a word of mouth type of thing
2) This is also why I think they have some government connections. Come on, can't you see something like the Dollhouse as a testbed for some CIA plot?

Sure but then why you would you go around telling everybody about your technology? Wouldn't you try and keep the technology a secret and use the Actives as secret agents on discreet missions with perfect covers as they wouldn't be able to reveal who they were working for?

I tried watching it, but after Eliza opened her mouth after the motorcycle race, and then the dancing, that's about it. This is very obviously trash. The pilot is supposed to interest me, maybe when I was 14 this would've been interesting.

Also, no more Cartier heart necklaces for girlfriends. I almost feel bad for giving one to an ex 6 years ago now.

Edit: Talk about a double edged sword, I want this shit to bomb hard but I can't let it take Terminator with it. >_<

Schild, give it up. You hated it before a single roll of film was done because of who was involved with it. It's not great TV, I'm not 100% convinced it is good TV yet. But you were determined to hate it and went in excited about your hateon for it because of Joss Whedon. At least stop pretending you ever intended to give it a shot on its merits.

At least stop pretending you ever intended to give it a shot on its merits.

as it had that whole Event Horizon feel (granted it was a ripped off idea).

As for Dollhouse, I like it, but then I am the anti-Schild in that respect as I have liked everything Whedon has done and am far to biased.

Dollhouse is not an enjoyable television program.

It's true that I've used a hypertext reference to link the word "Dollhouse" directly to a place where you can watch the show, but you should not interpret this as a recommendation. Being truly granular about what makes the show an affront would require the use of holographic data storage, but in general terms the show (as delivered) doesn't work. There's plenty of people to hate, and very few people to like. It's a science fiction retelling of MTV's The Real World, and it works about as well as you would expect.

What we are told by people (almost without exception) is that

1. I don't like the show, but
2. I will keep watching it as an expression of gratitude for a better, more engaging program he made back when he was making better, more engaging programs

which as a system of thought doesn't work for me. His acolytes are breathless for the show to reach apotheosis, like some scheming cult awaiting a fortuitous celestial arrangement. It's core to their belief: it's even woven into the press tour, the idea that the show isn't bad because it's bad. It because some malevolent, external force corrupted the perfect work. Well, man was ever beset by devils, within and without. Maybe don't enter into scenarios where you're contractually obligated to jettison your creative vision anymore? I'm just throwing that shit out, dog. 

Maybe it does improve, as foretold in the ancient scrolls. That doesn't mean I have to watch this lurching, stymied thing stagger around in the interim. There are other things I can do with my Goddamned television.

Then at the end of the episode, the two girls kind of secretly acknowledge each other, and I was like...woah. I had no idea what happened...

I hated that whiny stupid singer and wanted her dead five seconds after I saw her.

Too much? :oh_i_see:

I wasn't so keen on the latest episode. It was definitely an arc episode and got us a bit more into the mythology behind the series but it wasn't well done. The "members of the public" interviewed in the news report were nearly all terrible actors.

It's just a serving of bland, accompanied by a side-order of bland.

I actually thought it was pretty good.  They're finally moving forward with the plot, and it turns out Helo kicks ass.  However, the "twist" toward the end was so obvious I facepalmed.

This.

It was better than the other episodes so far, but still not great.

Next week: "A very special Dollhouse" :awesome_for_real:

I knew it was brown, it's just always reminded me of that old sitcom in the holiday camp.

Is there some reason this guy doesn't just pitch something at scifi syfy? I can't imagine that something like Firefly wouldn't be long term hit there.

Is there some reason this guy doesn't just pitch something at scifi? I can't imagine that something like Firefly wouldn't be long term hit there.

Yeah.... it's shit, it'd fit right in there

Faux Network

*UnSub has lost 5 nerd points.*

My understanding, if correct, is that he was contractually obligated to do another Fox show.  Hence Whorehouse.  I mean Dollhouse.

Obviously there's something wrong with me in that I've really really liked the last four episodes.

I really hope that Fox avoids mangling and/or killing a Season 2.

Apparently the deal is they made 13 episodes and then because of Fox wanting stuff rearranged, they chopped up the first one and spread bits of it out inside of other episodes to make things sort of make sense kind of in the new order. I've noticed it--parts of the sportsbike bondage guy have popped up in another episode very obviously meant to be before an earlier one. That left them short an episode and the 13th episode is the other bits from the opener plus some other stuff that they strung together to meet a contract for 13 episodes for the DVD. I'm guessing they hope by not showing it the Whedonistas will buy it and earn back some of the money it undoubtedly lost.

Either way, it sure smells like CANCEL to me and I can't imagine anyone is going to be tearfully running around in redcoats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcoats_(Butlins)) or whatever it was this time.

Whedon also elaborated on the show's storied 13th episode, "Epitaph One," a post-apocalyptic story featuring his Dr. Horrible star Felicia Day, which is not part of the series that will air on Fox.

"The decision had to do with the studio saying, 'We need another episode for our package, and we can't afford one,'" Whedon said. "'Can you do a clip show? Can we show the unaired pilot?' I'm like, 'No, you can't. It wouldn't make any sense. Besides, we cannibalized it for parts. Most of it's in other episodes.' And they were like, 'Well, we really have to have 13 for foreign.' And I said, 'I'll tell you what. I'll shoot a post-apocalyptic thriller that's all on our sets in six days with a cast of four other people, then we'll pepper it with different bits from our regular cast, and we can do it all during the schedule. It'll cost you half. I can do this.' And I was so in love with the idea that I just came up with off the top of my head, and that's what it turned into. It's one of the best episodes we've ever made."

OK, I've started to get this.

With Angel & Buffy Whedon took a long time to build up the story and characters. Like, several series. In Firefly I suspect he didn't feel he had that luxury of time, plunged right in and made a much better product as a result. For some reason he's gone back to the slowly slowly method with Dollhouse, and I think it's a mistake. It *could* become something good if it got 5 series, but that ain't gonna happen and we're going to be left with something unfinished.

Still, it is improving, I quite liked episode 9.

Well, the morals have nothing to do with the quality or even appeal of the characters anyhow. Amoral characters are abundant in literature and many of them are very popular.

Also, I don't know who's uglier. The asian on this show or Sandra Oh or whatever from Gray's Anatomy.

But it's obvious Sandra is uglier, there shouldn't be any confusion.

Sandra Oh has got the coolness. I wouldn't want to see her go away, even if she isn't eye candy. Also, someone give Margaret Cho a job.

There aren't enough ugly Asians on American TV. We are not complete citizens until there is. edit - Why do you hate freedom? :awesome_for_real:

This idea that there should be no ugly people on tv is creepy enough without bringing race into it.

We can't all be angry hot bitches or kung fu masters and shit.

takes an entire series to start getting good.

Finale 1.1 share 2.75mil viewers (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/05/09/friday-ratings-numbers-for-dollhouse-finale-friday-shows-delayed/18368).

It went out with worse numbers the TSCC. It's done.

I'm fairly sure Fox said we'll go with one low-rated sci-fi show and that the potential for dvd sales pushed Dollhouse over the top of TSCC.  *sigh*

It’s the surprise pick-up of the season: Fox ordered a second season of “Dollhouse” on Friday, despite seriously low ratings.

Joss Whedon, the show’s creator, called the season order “nothing short of a gift.”

Joss Whedon is to sci fi what that crazy Twilight writer cunt is to horror.

A blight.  A hideous herpes sore who has no talent yet somehow gets hordes of morons who just worship their shit and blab on about how great it is.

Buffy was great.  Everything else he's done is shit.  But don't insult Buffy.



...Really, don't. 

His X Men comics sucked balls.

What?

What what?

Ill give you a few points why it sucked.
[snip]

Ill give you a few points why it sucked.
1: Colossus back, ruining his sacrifice.
2: Colossus back with Kitty, negating her far more interesting relationship with Pete Wisdom, plus storywise, Kit and Piotr had pretty much moved on.
3: OH NOES LETS BE BITCHY TO WHITE QUEEN.  She has pretty much been on the side of the X Men since the later 80s.  So, almost 20 years now.  Way to Childhood Circle Jerk it.  Because Generation X didn't happen I guess, right?
4: See number 2 except that little scene where apparently orgasms make Kitty phase through the floor hur hur how funny.  No.  No its not.
5: The stories were boring and I amazingly didn't give a shit.  Made worse since I read the first trade the same day I read the first Gotham Central trade.  The latter blew that X Men trade out of the water. 
6: Morisson's New X Men run was too awesome and this basically tries to ignore or shit on as many story points of that as possible. 

Fuck Astonishing.  It was ass.  Ill say its better than much of Claremont's recent X output (Like his return to New Excalibur which was AWFUL), but this is not saying much at all.

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

You mean some people around here have an irrational hate for Whedon and all of his works? Shocking.

What amazes me is how much people hate him, and then spend insane amounts of time reading his books and watching his shows. It's like someone discovered some milk was sour, so they bought ten thousand gallons of the same milk, drank it, pissed it out, put it in an enema and squirted it up their asses, then ate the feces that resulted from all of that.

After they hated Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Alien4, Toy Story, Atlantis, and all of his X-Men comics, they STILL tuned into Dollhouse!!! WHAT THE FUCK???  :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods:

It's like someone discovered some milk was sour, so they bought ten thousand gallons of the same milk, drank it, pissed it out, put it in an enema and squirted it up their asses, then ate the feces that resulted from all of that.

There's an extremely good unaired episode called Epitath 1 on the dvds, i don't want to spoil it because its pretty much the best in the series but you should definitely check it out if you are a fan.  I hope its canon, and i hope we see more like it on the second season.

I don't think it is part of canon either, but definitely one of the high points of first season.

Also, hey Whedon you fucker, was it really necessary for the entire season to make no progress along the main story arc until the last three episodes?

British ones are more often than not. Might be the shorter seasons.

I thought the first season of BSG was paced very well.

If you ever come across any shows with season long story arcs that are well paced, please let me know.

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

Fringe is really just monster-of-the-week with barely enough ham-fisted foreshadowing plot development at the end of each episode to classify it as a serial.  It does get away from that in the last quarter season though but we'll see next week if it drifts back to procedural-land.  I still eat it up, but as a whole it doesn't compares favorably to Dollhouse (or Alias, which is probably the mid-point between the two shows).

I didn't ask for season long story arcs, I just asked for well-paced, and there's no shortage of well-paced shows out there. Most notably among recent shows I'd say Fringe, Supernatural, and Californication were well-paced. Hell, the last one has season long story arcs. Dirty Sexy Money too. Oh, also True Blood.

I disagree, given how poorly stuff is typically paced, but this is too ridiculous an argument even for me given how much more TV I apparently watch so my view of well-paced is obviously going to be completely different.

I liked the sub plot between Amy Acker and the nerd. Of course, she then promptly drives away from the show.

I realized this during the first season and it's still true now: the more Dushku an episode contains, the more I dislike it.

I'm surprised some of you are still watching this. I thought I'd be one of the few who'd give it a chance.

Oddly, the character I started off disliking the most grew to be the character I kept coming back for and liking. That being the socipathic nerdy computer guy. I'm drawing a blank on his name tonight (Topher?) but he is a highly entertaining character.

If you started off disliking the only likable member of the cast, I'm not entirely sure I'm the one with the sandy vagina - ye who posts on gaming forum.

:smug:

Had this on in the background last night while I played LOTRO.  I realized that I don't like a single character.  And I think it's written that way.  Isn't that Writing 101?
Make a sympathetic protagonist?

Gina Torres (Zoe) has a healthy acting career of her own. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0868659/)  She's a female character actor, not many big parts but plenty of work.  If you haven't seen her, it's because you didn't notice or aren't watching what she does.  I wouldn't feel sorry for her unless you also feel sorry for William H. Macy and Steve Buscemi.

Jeri Ryan is someone I clump in with chicks who strike me as white trash. List also includes Tori Spelling, Ali Larter, and Jaime Pressly.

There's just something about them that screams trash. Can't be helped.

Jeri Ryan is someone I clump in with chicks who strike me as white trash. List also includes Tori Spelling, Ali Larter, and Jaime Pressly.

There's just something about them that screams trash. Can't be helped.

I didn't mind it, except the "you're special and you can save the world" part, that worked over and over again on Buffy, and could have worked on Firefly, just falls flat here..