f13.net

http://ces.gamespot.com/video.html?sid=6202973

Lots of interesting stuff here.  My minor nitpicks:

(1) Not sure I like the "respawn in 10 seconds with full health mechanic."  At a minimum, I really can't see this working on PvP servers (which the DCUO Myspace page states the game will have- yay for that at least).

(2) I want to see Gotham.  Metropolis looks like every other generic city in a superhero video game, ever.

(3) Camera work is still a bit clunky, especially for flying enemies.  

(4) I'm ambivalent about the "only eight powers at a time" thing (and only four of those are active, four are reactive- thus, you have two basic attacks outside the power set, and four clickable abilities).  I like the ability to swap power sets after every fight, though.  This makes me worry a bit about tactical depth, but see below.


My likes:

(1)  Throwing cars.  Yes, please.  Please let me fly with a car up 30 stories and drop it on a villain in PvP.  This will be tough to balance- throwing things should do major damage, but this would naturally be limited by the limited availability of things to throw.

(2)  Power customization.  Supposedly, a dozen power sets- I've read, in various places, 4 or 5- fire, ice, electricity, radiation, and light.  It doesn't look like you can have powers from multiple sets, though.

But here are the levels of customization I have seen:

(a) Power set- fire, ice, etc.  We don't know alot about how different these are.  Although (as I said above) any power set can apparently swap in powers to get more DPS-y or tank-y, I hope there are significant strengths and weaknesses to each set (I can see radiation being more about DOTs, ice being more about crowd control, etc).

What would naturally add some balance here is natural weaknesses- fire-based are weak to ice, ice weak to fire, etc.

(b) Power source- magic, meta, gadgets, etc.  This limits your costume choices- a magic-based character can't use cyborg costume parts.  From what I've read, this seems to be cosmetic only (i.e., gadget fire-based leads to same potential powers as magic fire-based).

Check out CES 2009 screenshots as well- awesome shot of a cyborg female speedster.

(c) Weapon- this is important.  Within EACH power set, you can be ranged or melee.  That's pretty damn nice and (if the powers are different enough) could really add to replayability.  

(d) Movement type- so far, they have revealed flying, superspeed, and acrobatics.  Acrobatics is featured in that video- seems a bit floaty, but you can cling to walls (which fliers and speedsters can't).  Other articles have reported that the devs have hinted at trying to get in more (line-of-sight teleportation seems the obvious choice, and would be my personal favorite- give me a Nightcrawler cloud of smoke as I pop around the top of buildings, please).  

(3) I like the graphical direction, but obviously Metropolis is easier to do right than Gotham.  If they get Gotham right, I'll never leave.

(4) PvP (see DCUO myspace page for full dev post) is robust.  PvP servers, PvP zones, actions that flag you PvP, and both static and event-based hero v. villain instances.  

Think about what an absolute hell PvP will be too balance, though-  most MMOs have 10 or 12 classes, that are naturally tanks, DPS, healers, etc.

This game- a dozen power sets, each with ranged or melee potential, AND each of those combos could have at least three possible ways of movement.  Balancing movement powers in PvP alone seems really difficult.  How does a speedster catch a flier that just goes straight up when the battle is going bad?  How does an acrobat catch a speedster?  If speedsters are the fastest (and if all movement sets are equally fast, nobody would pick speedster) how does an acrobat or a flier prevent the speedster from hitting their megarun skill (speedsters are fast, but have a cooldown ability to kick it into really high gear) from just making a straight-line sprint away?  And if you give everyone ability to ground fliers or slow speedsters, you don't get the epic rooftop to rooftop battles that you see in comics.

(5) NO MOB FIELDS ANYWHERE (supposedly).  The exact quote I saw somewhere was "you won't see demon crack dealers on one side of the street with robots from the future across from them, with cultists summoning things from cauldrons on the rooftop."  Apparently, all mobs are tied to events happening (robberies, attacks, etc).  This seems like early development dev pillow talk, but if they can pull it off its pretty revolutionary.


Overall, I'm pretty excited about this as I read more.  PLEASE don't let this suck.

1. It's a fast paced game. You have to play it to understand how that would work and how well it would probably work.

2. Metropolis was the original totally generic super hero city. New York during the day. Gotham is just New York at night. ^_^

3. I agree. When I last played, running was a problem also, really really really fast. Pretty amazing actually. But I'm sure they'll tweak both to perfection.

4. Well. It has to be playable on more than just a keyboard. :awesome_for_real:

So much of DCUO reminds me of CoH/V it isn't funny, even down to some of the animations. A faster version of it, sure, but their source is pretty obvious.

Also, I'm still yet to see more than 4 players in one area of DCUO. The whole "massively multiplayer" aspect is yet to be really shown.

I'm really interested to see how this title turns out, especially vs ChampO and CoH/V. While I've seen some players going nuts over wall running, the videos I've seen of it have just given me whiplash in trying to follow the camera.

Wow, that was really kind of cool.  Very video gamish looking and less (traditional) MMO looking, but still very cool.

Everyone keeps saying this, but I'm curious how it can be avoided.  Its a superhero MMO, set in the D.C. Universe.  People will fly and run fast and shoot fire from their hands at robots and aliens.  I suppose everyone could ride giant wombats and decide the outcome of battles through interpretive dance and a poetry jam while mashing peanut butter into their own hair, but then it wouldn't exactly be a superhero MMO.  Its like saying WoW and LOTRO remind you of Everquest since there is armor and magic. 

The point is more valid if you are talking about art direction, but again, if you want to capture that "comic book panel" look, all superhero MMOs are going to have a similar direction.     


EDIT:  Your point about superspeed is spot on though.  Some people won't be able to select it (even if they normally would for RP or its gameplay) for vomit-related reasons  :ye_gods:

DCUO's superspeed effect is very similar to CoH/V's superspeed effect (an energy wave around the feet).

The jumping pose - arms up, feed raised - is very similar too. Also the use of a few pillars (and two power sets) to customise what a character can do.

Take other superhero games - they do look different to CoH/V in a number of ways. To me it almost looks like part of the design document for DCUO was "Take CoH/V as a base model and extend it". If I didn't know better I'd swear that Cryptic was making DCUO and SOE was making ChampO.

But the only way I'll know is if I get into the DCUO beta test. How things look on video and how they play can be completely different.

I have.

I can't really say much, but I can say SOE Austin is doing some really cool shit. SWG seems to have been a really great learning experience for everyone involved, though most of those people have left and are busy polluting another game. :awesome_for_real:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised it being an SOE game and all but the animations are still incredibly assy as well as the faces still having that fucking Poser "uncanny valley" look to them.

It's nice that the death cam defaults to an upskirt shot though  :oh_i_see:

Thought the combat looked pretty crappy.  Probably doesn't help that the main character in the demo was using swords, making the combat look really similar to fantasy MMO's.  Looked like a lot of button mashing while tons of numbers pop up above everyones' heads.  Maybe it was just a shit demo?

Meh. Unimpressive.  Looks "Been there done that" + "assy" animations.

If they want to get my attention, show me something besides the same stuff I have been doing for years in CoX. I say that because IMO CoX NAILED fun combat years ago. I'm sure SoE/Cryptic can copy it just fine for the next go round.

DCUO and ChampO are going to be tested with their content and stickiness. Will I be doing anything more interesting then fighting randomly spawned groups of mobs standing around waiting for me to come SMASH them? Will there be anything reasonably fun to do other then killing arresting mobs?

Quick cheap shot: From the amount of times he died in that demo, it looks like they have already learned from Cryptic/Jack's Nerfbat Enhancement Diversification design Vision strategy.

Huh? That combat looked nothing like standard fantasy MMO combat to me. If anything, I'd say it was much more similar to a beat-em-up vibe they went for.

I'd guess that either the guy was playing it like a beat-em-up and mashing the attack button (as opposed to a series of different moves ala WoW), they spruced up the auto-attack to make it a lot more kinetic, or he had the entire combo bound as one of the four attack keys he had available.

Is it me or are they playing that on a Playstation?

 :grin:

Bah, there are too many COH/V curmudgeons in this thread  :awesome_for_real:

Seriously, though, I don't really care about PvE.  Superhero PvP in three dimensions done right would be fucking robot Jesus riding a rapture AND a raptor.  Although, it seems like it would be hard to get right without veering toward (A) continent-wide chases or (B) disabling all travel powers when people start hitting each other.  

I can see either of these options being pretty cool.

Also, were you there at CES 09, Schild?

Get off my lawn! :geezer:


I hate to say this, but it's for your own good. Don't get your hopes up.

CoX already did PvP. It ranged from broken to fairly passable. However, I do not believe "Raptor Riding Robot Jesus Awesome!" were ever used to describe it.

When it did "work" it was basically about jumping someone and either dropping them in a couple seconds before they had a chance to flee. Or using some control power to hold them in place while you did the deed.

Besides this is SOE, making a MMORPG. Not Valve / Double Fine / Team Ico / (your boner inducing developer of choice) creating a half indy, half big budget AAA title that will rock the foundations of gaming as we know it.

No, but I happen to live less than a mile from SOE Austin (and like 5 other gaming companies).

Maybe you should write about your experience there :awesome_for_real:

I can tell you that I've almost finished my "punch through the internet" machine.

I'm sure it will be the greatest thing ever too once you get collision detection working.

I liked the idle graphics. A step up from CoH is a step up.
The animations seemed good until I saw the combat. Even the green targeting rings? seemed ugly. Sliding, unnatural movements (or just standing with crappy arm animations), knockdowns or damage without a clear indication of cause, especially for enemies and the main char, it all clashed with the nice textures.
I like the mechanics of faster movement via acrobatics, the wall sticking but air dashing up? Seems lazy. Air dash seems a lot like make acrobatics a crappy flying ability.

As to balance, if you put in PVP objectives, who cares if a flier goes up to avoid combat? PVP does not have to be synonymous with deathmatch.

Interesting to hear about, I have no enthusiasm toward it.

CoH/V recently changed its PvP system to try to stop this kind of one-shot-or-run-away tactic. It wasn't a popular move among the PvPers who liked that kind of thing and I haven't tried out the new system.

DCUO is meant to be out on the PS3 and PC, but the last report was of problems in getting the PS3 and PC versions to talk to each other meaning they might need separate servers for each platform.

DCUO vs ChampO will be an interesting fight, especially since the only cross-over will be on the PC which would seem to be least friendly to "action RPGs" anyway.

I like how doomsday was camping his corps (incap, whatever).

That looks pretty cool.  Then again I never made it passed level 10 in CoX.  I spent the majority of my time making characters.

How'd you know that was my current problem?

I like the "no mob fields" bit. The combat (outside of switching modes) sounds very 'meh'

This sounds like its from SWG, AKA: mission terminals. It may also lead to the same issue, you accept mission...go to location, when you are near the location..it spawns everything, however anyone near there...just got a surprise, and potentially, just killed your targets.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier to go "punch through" with no collision detection?  ;D

It's all about timing.

I just hope they do PVE raid content better than CoH/V ... though i guess that would be like asking a chef to make something that taste better than shit.

Wow, I didn't know City of Heroes was getting a DC Universe skin server.  

Color me completely unimpressed. The gameplay looks like just about any other MMOG diku bullshit gameplay. I see no real upgrades from City of Heroes in terms of how the gameplay looks in combat.

Just sayin.

It's been shown that refinement adds enormous value.

What would you of been impressed with.  Not sure what people are looking for.  I never liked CoX.  I thought it was terribly boring and retarded.  This game looks a little more action packed and less grind?  Graphics look decent but the animations are shit.

I'm looking for something that doesn't remind of EQ-style gameplay.

There are, but I don't think they've announced them yet. They have, sort of, shown them, but you'd have to be playing to realize the major differences.

Edit: I'd say wait for game journalists to give impressions, but you know, game journalism. Lol.

The key to making a good Supers game is making sure the characters have distinct abilities, looks, powers, professions, and vices.  So far, from what I've seen of DCUO it's basically "you're all special and you all kick the same amount of carbon-copied ass."  I got no sense of originality from that demo that makes individual superheros what they really are... which is extremely unique and fatally flawed.  I mean cmon, "defense-mode?"  Are you serious?
Bah... junk

...next

p.s.
This is where Champo pwns DCUO.  ChampO stuck (hopefully) with the main tenets of supers gaming, largely since it was humpbacked on top of a proven pen/paper system more akin to traditional superheroes.  The powers and vices are customizable to the extreme, which is what it's all about really.  Otherwise, wtf are you actually playing?  WoW in pew pew spandex maybe?

What skirt  :oh_i_see:

This looks great. Actiony, fast, doesn't look like an MMO at all. No target locking, cool. Enough collision detection to let players stick to sides of buildings, nice. Looked fluid enough at this stage. No idea on what the engine can support but we'll know that in time.

Contextual buttons: about freakin' time. The only reason most WoW interface screenshots have a few dozen buttons on them is because Blizzard hasn't felt the need to put contextual hotbutton bars in. But as we've all experienced, in any given encounter, you don't need instant access to a few dozen buttons anyway. 8 buttons at a time sounds about right.

In general the UI is not alienating to MMO players while works for console players (not the edge casers, but the average ones :wink: )

Having different stances per character is nice. No idea if that applies to all archetypes in DCUO, but it should.

Full health upon respawn is probably for testing/demoing only. This is SOE we're talking about here.

Yes, that appeared to be played on a PS3. All of the UI elements showed PS3 Controller icons (though there was that one sequence early on with a floating arrow cursor in the lower right).

I agree with Trippy on the faces. Nothing a mask can't solve  :awesome_for_real:


FIFY   :grin:

I think thats the thing i like about it actually, I hated the idea in CoH/V that you had to select an archtype ... when are superheroes tanks, dps, healers and crowd control?

DCUO seems more in line with a superhero theme, being able to switch your mode and what not. I mean i guess you can say that about every MMO setting but for superheroes the idea of no classes just seems to fit. I never saw superman as a tank - high defense no offense ... or Wolverine as a DPSer, no defense all offense.

Looks interesting.  On the plus side, I like the art design much more than ChampO and the graphics look nice.  The animations and power effects, on the other hand, look like crap.  Targeting and all that green shit looks pretty bad, too.  Acrobatics, at least the wall-sticking part, looks like fun.  The mid-air 'dash' looks kind of silly.  Picking up and throwing around objects is very nice.

I always liked the Guild Wars power swapping, so I'd like to see how that works out.  Missions look more dynamic than CoX, but that's hardly a surprise considering how old the latter game is getting.  Overall though, I think it looks too console-ish for my tastes.  It looks like it could be fun as a co-op sandbox type game (a la GTA or Saints Row), but as an MMO I'm skeptical.

If you can tell the amount of grind in a MMO just by watching a dev video of an alpha build, you're a better man than I.

Again, I think this will work out better on the PS3 than PC.

This really looks a lot like CoX with only 4 powers.

I get that making a console mmog means taking some stuff out; but what gets added back in its place?

I honestly don't think the whole console MMO thing is going to work.  No ability to send /tells?  Besides, every PS3 board I've seen where DCUO was discussed had various 9-14 year olds saying over and over "OMG MONTLY FEE?  WTF U R LAME OMG OMG I NEVR SAW THAT B4!11!"  The "continuing pay" mentality just isn't ingrained in console gamers. 

Again, to all of you saying THIS IS COX- wtf could they have done to a superhero MMO to have it NOT involve people flying, running fast, and shooting ice from their hands?  I just don't get the anger. 

It isn't anger, it is apathy.

Having exactly the same super speed animation was a particularly weird moment.


What really does it is the overall art direction, which is 100% CoX.

Well, some of us don't like COX, and are more into Wonder Woman. 

I see one person woke up on the wrong side of their World of Warcraft pillow.

Fair enough, but if you don't like cox, I don't know what is attracting you to DC. Other than Wonder Woman I mean.

I'm sure you are.  You still won't be able to tie her up (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=34&Itemid=51&limitstart=3) in DCUO, though.

This is kinda what I was saying.  The game seems very dumbed down and the supers pretty much seem all the same.  Granted, it's just 1 demo but it's not very compelling so far.
Someone said prior that they didnt want the standard holy trinity of mmos in their supers games.  Well, sorry to say... the holy trinity has ALWAYS been alive in well in the superhero genre long before DIKU was a glint in some nerd's eye.  Matter of fact, aside from Tolkien, the trinity itself largely comes from comic book superheros.  So yah, basically w/o tank, healer, etc... it's not a supers game IMO.

Batman cant suddenly say, "hey, I think I'm gonna be like Superman today."  Want your Batman to be like Superman?  Make another damned character.  Concurrently, if Batman (melee dps) expects a few chinese stars in the shape of bats would be enough to kill Doomsday, he's mistaken and I'd suggest he'd go get Superman (tank) and the Green Lantern (dps caster) to help.  In DCUO's case though, seems like they can just takes turns being eachother every once and a while.

Woosh!!

I get the amusing cock joke, but didn't think you liked CoX either?

I've never played it (I tried to download a free trial the other day, but the U.S. client link on the COX website just takes you to a screen where you can download the updater, not the client).  I simply don't care how close DCUO is to it.  Even if it is iterative, if it adds new stuff, it can be an amazing game.  Or, in other words, "I can like WoW even if I didn't like EQ."

Then you may want to look at ChampO, and you can have 5 (or more) superpowers, and the nemesis thing looks cool.

Can't Superman out DPS the Green Latern and Batman combined....

Er, its a question of balance- obviously the different power sets and options have to have relatively the same power level.  There is no getting around that in an MMO.  Although it is ironic that Batman is pretty much the only guy you really CAN'T replicate in this game.  "Non-powered" individuals can be created, but they can still get meta-equivalent powers through gadgets.  Batman wasn't constantly wearing a flying suit or shooting an ice rifle, but if you didn't give that stuff to nonpowered characters in DCUO nobody would create them.

Batman has always fought with skill, intelligence, and  :drill:. No need to balance Batman, you need to be  :drill: to use him. :awesome_for_real:

How many of Batman's villains have actual powers?  I can only think of Clayface and Poison Ivy, and their abilities are relatively minor.  There is a reason you didn't often see him going 1v1 with the face-melting types Superman faced. 

It's not anger, it's "oh hey, SOE really have copied a lot of CoH/V here, haven't they?". I mean, pick two powers and a power source is very close to pick two powers and an origin - the big change is to pick your travel power at launch. If DCUO evolves CoH/V's style and improves it, then good for them (but bad for CoH/V).

Where I think it will fall down for PC gamers are the controls - four powers at once plus active movement is less convenient on keyboard and mouse than controller.

It's horses for courses. A lot of Batman's villains are enhanced humans - Bane's strength, Firebug's flame suit, Joker's poison and bombs, etc.

Plus Batman can beat anyone if he has time to plan. :oh_i_see:

Batman is a member of the alien invasion stopping, doomsday fighting, justice league. And besides how many times has Batman saved Sup's ass? Batman is  :drill:. No need to pussy him up with mmo bullshit.

The CoX updater is the client. Or rather, it downloads the client - just run it and go make a cup of tea or fifty. I was under the impression that this was how most MMOs worked.

Anyway... the swappable roles could be a bad thing if it means every character can do everything equally well, but that's not necessarily the case. It could just be a mechanic to allow you to fudge party composition to be "good enough", i.e. make it so that you're not totally screwed if you have a party of five DPS (but still not be as good as having a true tank/healer/controller/whatever).

Anything that makes it easier to PUG is a good thing in my book.

Except that it's got the tainted hands of Jack Emmert all over it, while DCUO doesn't.

I swore I'd never touch another one of his games again, and I meant it.

Will you be able to survive missing Star Trek Online?

What did Jack Emmert do? Is there a story somewhere I should read?

He dared to nerf, which is unheard of in MMOs!

He was an executive involved with MMOs.  Any executive involved with an MMO will be the subject of fanatic hatred eternally when Class X in his game has its aggro reduction coefficient reduced from .5 to .48.   Its like if you wanted to go to McDonalds with someone who liked their food, but instead the person screamed at you that the current CEO was CEO of Burger King during that one time on February 8th, 1987 when his burger had too much ketchup on it. 

It might have helped if the characters that were being shown off in the demo were fighting with superpowers rather than swords and guns.  Even the bad guys (except for Doomsday) all seemed like boring cannon fodder who just stood there firing guns.

Well, the fact that it does look like CoX, and yes it does completely remind anyone who has ever played that game of exactly the same thing with a little bit brighter coloring and a new UI, doesn't really bother me.  CoX was a ton of fun as far as character design and fighting.  The real issue is whether or not DCU will correct the huge flaws that CoX had that had nothing to do with shiny capes, superspeed or fun gameplay, and that was a horrible repetitive quest grind that had you seemingly repeating the same areas over and over.  By lvl 12 you had seen the same map so many times that any redeeming qualities the game had simply weren't worth it.  If all DCU does is fix that, it will probably be amazing.

I liked how the standard uniform for Lexcorp security forces is a blue jogging suit.  

Maybe I just have a hazy memory of CoV (never played a hero so I can't speak for that side), and that haze has a delightful strawberry aroma that makes the game seem more fun than it really was, but the movie really never made me think "That looks just like CoV." CoV combat was mainly standing in one place trying to decide which of your 20 available powers to use next; DCUO seems to have more mobility and world interaction (throwing cars) with the tradeoff of more button mashy combat.

Anyway, CoX did a lot of things that really need to become standard in MMORPGs, so even if ChampO and DCU just end up being CoX 2 and Cox 1.5 I'll be relatively happy. Better than trying to out-WoW WoW.

Combat here seems to be just standing in one place and whacking on an enemy until he's down as well.  Whenever he starts running around and attacking enemies at random he seems to get his ass kicked.  Mobility doesn't actually seem to do the characters much good as you can see them steadily take damage no matter how much they run around.

The combat certainly doesn't look anything like a bona-fide action game.

It looked like WoW combat, but sped up and with more jumping and button mashing. Maybe it feels different when you actually play it /shrug



I also wouldn't fret too much over 'only 8 skills' or whatever. Guild Wars follows a similar implementation and I'd hardly call the combat 'dumed down' or what have you. Even in WoW, most people only ever actually use half a dozen skills 90% of the time.


My question is what kind of machine will it run on for the PC? I enjoy the art style for the most part, and it looks pretty smooth, but what kind of system do you think will be required?

Jack Emmert aka "Statesman" was the lead designer on City of Heroes and was responsible for the arguably the greatest series of global nerfs in NA MMORPG history (not counting major system replacements like SWG's NGE). People like Brad McQuaid and Gordon Wrinn (aka "Abashi" aka "Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment" aka the "Nerf Bat") are total amateurs compared to the nerfing prowess of Statesman.

Now some of the nerfs were in fact necessary because of initial blunders in the game design (e.g. not having target caps on AoE powers). However the worst global nerf, aka "Enhancement Diversification" aka "ED", was put into place because Jack thought players were too powerful. This in a game of fucking *SUPER HEROES*.

The game had/has many innovative features but for every one of them there were/are equally brain-damaged design decisions to offset the innovative ones. Thanks to Jack's "Vision" for the game, though, they didn't try and fix some of the crappier parts of the game until he was out of the picture but by then it was too late to grow the game beyond a certain level.

Without knowing more about character building/advancement it's hard to say if "mode" switching is simply their way of handling the problem of how to activate powers from a set larger than can be reasonably handled by a console controller or if in fact for any character you can be a "tank" or "blaster" or "support" or whatever depending on what mode you are in a la Matrix Online.

I despise Star Trek, so this is no big loss for me.

Good thing DCUO is coming from SOE, which has no history of doing anything vaguely similar like nerfing.

In the design of CoH some basic mistake with powers we designed in. Things like no AOE caps, defence that stacked in an additive rather than multiplicative way (meaning that each bit of defence you got was substantially better than the last piece), certain ATs were nigh invulnerable, etc. The biggest issue imo was the power gap between the best and gimpiest powerset combos.

Emmert saw in a number of changes - good and bad - that angried up the blood of a lot of CoH/V players. A major issue was saying "No more nerfs to powers", but then changing how the enhancement system worked which nerfed powers (which, in Emmert's defence, he did apologise for because he saw powers and enhancements as separate systems when he made the comment).

A lot of forum warriors don't like his legacy, but a lot of things come down to inexperience and the fact that no lead dev of a MMO escapes the wrath of a character nerfed (although Positron, the current lead, avoids a lot of flack since the powers guy, Castle, posts a lot in the forums).

As was said before, it's not anger... it's angst. It's the ennui that comes with having seen it all before. The ONLY thing in there that didn't look like Yet Another Fucking DIKU (only with SUPERHEROES!) was the car tossing thing. And they didn't seem to use that very well.

It looked like "stand around and mash your special abilities while your opponent stands there and mashes his special abilities" and that was it. That can be fun, but it's certainly nothing to get excited about.

It really looked like a lot of MOTS to me.  The city-scape looks the same as CoX, Characters looked very similar to CoX, the one screen with the point assignment to powers and skills looked very similar to enhancements and etc...

The fact that you can decide to place points into stats that make a difference, the example being leveling up strength to pick up a bus, is great through.  Most MMO's play lip service to the traditional RPG character differentiators so it's nice to see someone embracing it.

Even though it looked like MOTS I'll still probably try it.  CoH, pre-nerfs, was one of the more enjoyable experiences I've had.

I'd love to see some different settings other than just a shitty city or generic lab or something.

One more thing, (and forgive me here for a moment of nerd rage) but even with Superman's help a lv. 25 hero (which they said is mid-range) with swords is expected to fight Doomsday?

Read the comis carefully.  I don't believe Doomsday has ever been killed with swords before- thus, its quite possible  :grin:

I'd rather have that than 'raid content'.

She was clearly just the distraction and Superman was supposed to blind side Doomsday. Except Superman looked to have gotten bugged out into a wall near the end.


That, or he just decided to watch her die half a dozen times. Super Dick  :grin:

In Superman vs Doomsday two, before Superman drops Doomsday into infinity, Mother Box equips him with a sword that can cut Doomsday. He does so, and it's at this point that we're clear that the latter is basically one solid biomass (no separate organs, all done through the rather extreme method of forced evolution and learning cells used to create him)*. The sword doesn't kill him, but he can be cut and therefore damaged with one.

* this is all from memory, and that itself is, what, 15 years ago now? It may have been Supermna vs Doomsday 3, but I think that was the one where the end up on Apocolyps

Welcome to the world where Batman-inspired characters will DPS Darkseid into a fine grey mist.

I don't think powers balancing will have been done yet.

And this is just a small, tame look at what the DCUO boards will look like.  An MMO using an IP with a 50+ year history.  It'll be thousands of Comic Book Guys arguing over every minutia of every established character that ends up in the game.   :awesome_for_real:

DCUO has to deal with things that comics can overlook, like how Batman isn't killed every time he faces Sinestro. The Green Lantern, armed with a power ring that can do pretty much anything his imagination wants, has trouble with Sinestro (who has his own yellow ring), so Sinestro should have no issue with a man in a bat costume.

Instead, Batman will end up with stats around the same as Superman and the forum wars will begin.

Heh, perhaps that's the reason they have that godawful Myspace page instead of a real website with forums.  Listening to "OMG GREEN LANTERN'S COSTUME HAS WRINKLES AND THE POWER RING PREVENTS THAT IN THE COMICS" would probably get tiresome. 

EDIT:  But on second thought, D.C. comic fans are used to this kind of stuff.  Every single run of even the same character has that person in a different outfit, the city looks different, his origin has been retconned, the Joker can stand toe to toe with Batman in single combat for an extended length of time and then in the next run he's down with one punch, etc.  This is the one place where saying "a wizard did it" when people whine about continuity is actually a valid response. 

He was in charge of a level based diku mmog when they corrected a few obvious balance problems.

That's all.

But you know how some people get.

DCUO doesn't have to deal with those things if Batman never fights Sinestro. I.e. you are somehow assuming that there are missions for every NPC Hero to fight every NPC Villain.

That's a helluva cross reference to put together.  I wouldn't want to be the intern that had to go research that.

There are plenty of opportunities for Batman to fight his own rogues gallery, even if you didn't repeat a villain (and of course they will), you can still create dozens of different instances. 

I just want to help Ambush Bug. 

Hmm, perhaps. Perhaps only Superman villains hang around Metropolis while Batman villains stay around Gotham.

On the other hand, Batman and Superman do team up against some odd opponents:

(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/a/a6/Superman_and_Batman_vs._Aliens_and_Predators_2.jpg/350px-Superman_and_Batman_vs._Aliens_and_Predators_2.jpg)

I'm sure that Batman-based characters will want to be able to fight everyone but not be outpowered by Superman-based characters. (It cuts both ways - Superman should be able to put the Joker in prison in about 5/10ths of a second, but doesn't).

And Tri: all of those retcons, changes, mistakes and soap operas just leaves more fertile ground for nerds to run riot. If you choose to ignore that you are arguing which fictional power fantasy can beat up which other fictional power fantasy in an explosion of testosterone and homoeroticism, the world can be your oyster.

More infos coming out of New York Comic Con!!  Here is the most comprehensive random-conventiongoer-impression I've seen written up so far:

http://dcuosource.com/index.php/topic,335.0.html

Swinging and teleportation=gud.  Power emanation points and power coloring= double plus gud. 

Also, new trailers up at Gametrailers- http://www.gametrailers.com/game/8708.html?sort=date#Content

EDIT:  new info on PvP- http://www.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=16853#comments

Having watched those videos, I see some things I think will be design flaws, like world PvP surrounding PvE missions and the how the character creation system is proposed (Origin, Power Source, Weapon, Travel Power).

But we'll see at launch. Or beta. I'm pretty sure some things are going to change markedly based on player feedback. Although, this is SOE, so history probably isn't in our favour on that...

I'm a bit skeptical about integrated PvP as well, but I'd like to see it tried again. WAR I thought had some good ideas subjugated by completely misunderstanding how players actually play. But there's still worthwhile exploration to build upon. After all this time it still Could(tm) be cool to have optional quests with each side having a competing objective in the same area.

As to the creation system, I actually like that travel power is a separate tree from the Primary/Secondary pool of CoH. This way you're not being asked to compromise your advancement along the power curve. Also means you could get a travel power right away rather than having to wait 5-10 hours of /played.

Finally, I'm just happy to see what looks like it could be* a fun game from SOE. It's been a very long time.

* usual MMO veteran conditions in place of course.

One thing to keep in mind is that if the travel powers are anything like in CO, it'll be a whole lot easier to avoid or escape pvp if you want to.

True. But it'll then run into CoH/V's PvP problem of every time one side looks like it'll lose, they run away at high speed. It's stuff like that I expect to see get changed before launch.

DCUO's death penalty sounds interesting: it has none. 10 seconds to wait for a respawn and you can choose to start where you fell or a short, safe distance away. There's been some talk of player deaths incurring time penalties on missions (so if you die, it's only 10 seconds to wait, but you might lose 60 seconds off the mission clock) but again, it is probably yet to be fully decided. However, this really just promotes the idea of a war of attrition against anything that doesn't have a penalty.

That DCUO source writeup I mentioned said that Speedsters and acrobats have ways to permanently stay with fliers (grappling cable for acrobats, "static/magnetic cling" for speedsters).  The Allakazam article also said that CC could rein in fliers (notice the dev quote in that article saying "Crowd control will play a big part in this game"  :why_so_serious:).

So, sounds like they realize the potential issues.   

Wow, it really sounds like a new world order over at SOE. No XP loss? No crushing respawn point? I can easily except time penalities, as long as not every mission isn't time-based. 10 second respawn to spawn at your location sounds better than Godeasymode WoW.

Still not at the "hope" stage yet of course. Too many years of aggressive death penalties to atone for :grin:

Both CO and DCUO seem interesting in that I do enjoy me some Super Heroes.  However, in general the DC universe is just not all that appealing to me.  I'd much prefer something else.  However, DCUO seems like is has better mechanics thus far, and a better concept.

Ah well.  Most likely I'll play both for a couple months before adding them to my ever growing shelf of "I don't play it anymore"

What differences have you identified other than 'you can only have 5 super powers in DC'?

Even the death penalty thing is meaningless other than in how it contributes to overall grind,and assumptions that DC will have little overall grind seem.... unwise.

Having no handson, I'm going only by the videos and the reports. DCUO seems much more actiony, quicker, not much in the way of target locking (though it appears to be there), more in the spirit of 1 vs 4 that was old CoH. CO meanwhile seems a bit more like what CoH became later in its life. Maybe great for CoH players, but the general audience would have shown up long ago if there was something there to attract them.

Add to that then the much more known IP and the marketing and sales support it brings, and as long as SOE isn't trying to make it 2003 again, things should work out very well for them.

If this was a few years ago I'd be waiting for DCUO to fail simply because SOE was working on it. But all of the things that have been screwed up since EQ2 weren't internally developed.

PvP mainly.  CO has none to speak of aside from an arena from what I can tell.  DCUO is still too early in development to know for sure, but they are claiming contested objectives and guild based PvP.

The screaming over contested PvP will see it reduced in scope. Guaranteed.

Unless they really don't want the mainstream MMO audience and are happy with PS3 players and DC fanbois with PCs.

Really depends on the implementation.

If it's "You kill X of Y" while your opponent is "You kill the player trying to kill X of Y", that's going to cause the screaming that causes the rethink, handsdown. Assymetrical PvP (where one side is chasing mobs while the other is chasing players) sucks.

But if it's "You attack this place to get this thing" while your opponent has" you defend", symmetrical PvP, welp that'll work just fine.

As long as it's a side quest and not something that prevents you from going from level 19 to 20.

I played both today.

DCUO is meant for a console and champo is meant for the PC.  I have videos from both games so I'll post them when I do a whole writeup sometime this week.  But in DCUO you have 8 abilities across the bottom.  You have the four PS button for your first four abilities.  Then when you want to use the second four abilities you press a button and the four PS buttons switch to the second set.

It's very actiony and plays like any other action type game in 3d.  I think one of the major issues will be in PVP and terrible camera control.

Did they have any PC playables there at all? I've heard it's only PS3 controllers. I just want to believe the PC port is going to be top shelf given its SOE.

The number of abilities don't bother me. I'm used to only needing 6-8 per specific situation anyway. As long as it's easy to shift between modes (like the offense/defense thing mentioned), it's all good.

It's always been PC playable. I played it first on the PC, but all you had to do was pick up the PS3 controller and the motion sensitive shit made the GUI switch to PS3 controls. This is all through a computer. I'll be honest, it was one of the slickest things I've seen in a long, long time.

Ah cool, forgot to consider the PS3 controller on a PC.

What will they think of next... :geezer:

Recent footage has been running on a PS3 though, so I can see the confusion, insane as it is.

I only saw PS3 controllers so I assumed it was all PS3 based at the show.

Danger Will Robinson, Danger!

At the show it might've been. Much easier to haul around a few PS3s than computers. Makes booths easier also.

I lied.  Apparently I found some footage I took with it being used with a keyboard/mouse I think, since the abilities are numbered 1-4.  Hmmm.

I've seen footage with an onscreen Windows cursor. Just didn't see it from show footage.

Regardless, it better work exceedingly well with mouselook. None of this crap about sluggish controllers for balance. It feels like it does in other games or it'll feel like a crappy port. No matter how good it looks.

But I'm still hopeful.

It works fine. In fact, last I played it, it was a bit too fast on both the keyboard/mouse and controller variants. I imagine I could've screwed around with the mouse speed options, but hey, I wasn't playing it for that.

Ok. Will need to hit the next convention that comes along then  :grin:

Just as an update (http://dcuosource.com/index.php/topic,335.15.html): swinging isn't a travel power in DCUO and power colour customisation isn't either.

EDIT: fixed the link. Look at Jens Anderson's post.

You got all that from Darniaq's last post (which you just linked)?   :oh_i_see:

I copied the wrong tag.

Ah, I see.  Well I guess that makes sense...silhouetting is all the rage these days in PvP. 

And PvP once again causes the removal of cool features.

Err, ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but Misanthrope in the first post of that thread said they're adding swinging as a movement power and that they ARE planning to have power coloring.

I took 4 videos at the comic con if you guys wanna check em out.

Edit because YouTube stinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTOswZmVOIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmY9TBNltW0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JLbZtxy2iQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDGpnB-QyZc

Then a dev came along and corrected him. The dev's name? Jens Anderson! Unfortunately I didn't see an option to link to a post, so I had to link the entire thread.

Ah, this post (http://dcuosource.com/index.php?topic=335.msg2767#msg2767) then.

Ok, well at least that's settled. :-)

I loved the old spider-man cartoons, where he'd be swinging straight down the middle of a street, shooting webs left and right.
 
I could never figure out the physics of that, since he should swing into the building.

Of course it was funnier when the buildings he passed were lower than he was...

Dumbass.  Power customization alone could have poached a significant portion of players from CoX.  Matt Miller probably had a big grin on his face when he read that.

No doubt.  That's something that's so simple to implement and goes such a long way towards player happiness I've got to think it's moronic not to allow it.

Dude, this is SPIDER MAN we are talking about.  You think he cares about the laws of physics.   SPIDER MAN. :uhrr:

Did you read and understand the reasoning? I think they made the right choice.

Depends upon your feeling about PvP impacting PvE and character customization.

To us it is the wrong choice.

Bingo.  I'd much rather be able to customize as many aspects of my character as possible rather than be able to instantly identify what another player hit me with.  Customization is what makes these games, and I always considered CoX's set power animations to be one of their big weaknesses.

It's a judgment call on the developers part, I just think they blew it.

My feelings about PvP affecting PvE would make your eyes bleed were I to type them out.  

Just to clarify, my method of playing CoH wasn't to make the most efficient build, it was to come up with a cohesive character concept.  Stuff like this doesn't help out with that goal.  Of course, if you're a munchkin you don't much care about that, but then if you're a munchkin you should die in a car fire.

It would be the most efficient car fire for dying in, however.

I do the same and agree.

I don't know if it is 'simple' to implement, but if DCUO had custom power colours it would remove one of ChampO's key selling points.

I think this shows, more than anything I've seen so far, how consolization is affecting DCUO development.  The justification they used for this in that quote was "we don't want you to read logs to figure out what you were hit with."  Translation:  12 year olds with PS3s barely have the ability to read the logs, and even if they are literate it would bore them to do so.  I am a major fanboi of this game, but if anything sinks it, it will be designing the entire game around 12 year olds with PS3s.

* I say this because every PS3 board I've seen where they discuss the game is 90% composed of two kinds of comments:

(1)  "I cant be Batman!  OMG SUCK I NO BUY!!"

(2) "Montly fee?  THATS LAME I DONT NEED THAT FOR MY OTHER GAMES, YOU SUX I NO BUY!"


Good luck getting money out of that group. 

I remember the same complaint as 2 about MMOs on PCs though. People got over it. I'm more likely to bet on consoles than PCs for the next wave of MMOs because they aren't so crowded with competing MMOs. Especially F2P ones.

The "can't be Batman" is an issue every MMO with customisation will have to face though, because someone will always find a way of impinging on copyright.

I just don't buy that MMOs on consoles will work (unless consoles start coming with keyboards, in which case the difference is mostly semantic).

I KNOW they won't work with monthly fees, because console-types simply aren't conditioned to pay them (see my post above for the typical reaction).

And I'm 99% sure they won't work with F2P and microtransactions.  Everyone is getting on this train but its destined to end in complete disaster.  Is everyone really going to buy 15 sparkly doo-dads a month at a dollar each to trick out their heroes?  Newsflash to MMO developers:  we aren't 15 year old Korean girls who will buy a dancing unicorn GIF every two weeks to make our Korean Myspace page more noticeable for the hunky mysterious boy in homeroom.  Designing your games on the assumption that we are is pure undiulated fail.

Final Fantasy XI and Phantasy Star do a pretty good job of saying otherwise.

Microtransactions won't work?

Do you even have any idea where Microsoft and Sony make their killing? It's highway robbery and people are lined up. The Horse armor on XBLA pulled in another cool Mil for Bethsoft.

That's wonderful for those companies.  Now, can they do that every month in the same game for many years?  In a way that absolutely does not give any non-cosmetic advantage to those who buy versus those who don't?

Aeria Games, Nexion, Nodiatis, et. al. say there is a huge microtrans market amongst 12-year olds that will pull in far more than a $15 a month sub.  The kids have no control and apparently as long as it keeps them out of trouble, mommy and daddy are happy to pay for it.

Lantyssa, I don't think it's actually worth talking with him about it. He's completely wrong on not only the console front but the RMT front in general. As in, he's just wrong and there's enough information out that that should he choose to actually research it, he can answer these questions himself.

What schild said. Tri, you are completely and utterly wrong when it comes to console MMOG's. Fuck, XBox Live, PSN, the Wii Virtual Console and WiiWare all prove you wrong on the "will not purchase microtransactions" front. Rock Band and Guitar Hero DLC anyone?

And who says that they have to restrict microtrans items to purely cosmetic? While most MMOG players blanch at the thought of selling useful items for money, the writing is on the wall with that. Yes, a Western male-dominated audience is different than the Korean tweener girl audience - that doesn't mean they are immune to purchasing useless shit.

Now I have doubts about DCUO, but they have little to do with monthly fees or DLC transactions. I'm actually starting to belive the game will actually come out now, though I don't believe PS3 and PC players will play together. Consoles are where the next WoW level MMOG success will come from (at least the one that doesn't have Blizzard's name on it), the game just won't look or be anything like WoW.

Agreed.  Console games need to be primarily action focused.  Something like WoW or EQ won't do the trick on consoles because for the most part we're dealing with a lot of ADD people.

Isn't the arcade, and part of the PSN one huge micro transaction?

The amount of people willing to pay deeply into the game is far south of the total amount of people registered to play the game. However, there are far more than enough of them to justify the cost of development, maintenance/expansion, and all of the infrastructure. The statement I've heard alot is something like "less people are willing to go deep into a game, but those players that do you may a LOT more on per head than you would from a flat subscription fee".

As Lantyssa said, this is a model already proven.

The complication with consoles is that Sony, MS and Nintendo are in the way and want their (not insubstantial) cut.

"In any MMO with a subscription, you are over charging 50% of your player base, and undercharging the other 50%."

The unofficial ratio I've heard used in regards to microtransaction MMO's is 1/10/89.  1% buy a ton of stuff, 10% buy a small amount, and 89% never spend money on anything.  These are by no means the actual statistics for all games across the board, but it's more or less how the devs of these games look at things.  The key is that since these games are free and get a large amount of registered users, 1% of the player base becomes a substantial number.  John Davison was talking about this in a podcast this week, and there's some Chinese MMO that was just released in the U.S. a few months back that already has over a million users here now, and something like 50 million worldwide.  That Cartoon Network MMO is apparently also doing pretty well with all the advertising it gets.

As far as Triforcer's comment, you can sell things that are non-cosmetic, but that also isn't buying gear.  One example I've heard about is fast travel from area to area for 25 cents a pop.  It doesn't make a character more powerful, but it's a time saver and those transactions can add up pretty quickly.  There's plenty of opportunities to keep people making small transactions over long periods of time.

Where a subscription-based game features ubers in uber gear to provide a push to newbs to achieve, mtx games rely on those cosmetics (wait, did someone think the cosmetics were being sold only because the devs didn't want to affect the core gameplay mechanic? No, it's because that's the most immediately visible point of differentiation between all of the otherwise sameness). Of course there's the other accroutrements like faster XP, faster travel, semi-private content, house trophies, etc.

The key is registered users, ongoing advertising and constantly finding ways to upsell mtx within the game world. So a game that merely has WoW's 11.5mil users is actually not doing all that well. That's why some of us have touted over the years the 130mil+ global registered users of Maplestory (circle mid-2008), Audition's 80mil (circa early-2008) and almost $100mil of Habbo (mid-2008). And conversely while 100mil is not really the insane number it would be for a subs-game.

Your sweet spot is that 10% number, because you know the 1-3% are the major investors. So you need ten times that in at least occasional passersby you managed to get an account from at all.

Consoles may be the future due to their huge installed base but I'll do my very best to steer clear as long as I can. It looks simplified in terms of powers available, environments and interaction (no chat box, virtually no gui at all other than a huge power bar with 4 active powers). I mean I can see that flying around brightly lit sandboxes throwing objects at mobs and other players while spamming your attack key could be fun for a while but I'd rather buy a single player console game with a script and an ending. Not that I trust SOE to avoid sucking the fun out of the game anyway.

I'd still be happy if they spruced up CoH a little and built an actual end-game onto the thing. Speed up the levelling but actually have some content and progression to keep you occupied after you have your powers. Hopefully Champions online will be like that.

You know, if we backed up a few years and replaced all the comments about microtransactions and subscription fees with talk about how gamers will never go for installing stuff on their consoles and dealing with patches... it'd be a suitable timewarp thread. The line is blurring and sooner or later, it'll be entirely nonexistant.

Jens Anderson really posts a lot at DCUO Source, and he necroed an old thread of mine there to say more about power loadouts-

http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php/topic,263.0.html

Interesting.  It looks like there will be more depth than I thought, as apparently you can now change your tactical set (offense, defense, support) in combat.

Four slots for consumables (out of the eight available to you at any moment) I find interesting.  If DCUO is actually going to make the jump to RMTing consumables that make a difference in PvP (which is what I think four item slots imply), that's a pretty big strategic break from the present AAA MMO wisdom. 

EDIT:  If you use the DevTracker function, you'll also find posts saying that more travel powers are coming.  Gogo Nightcrawler-style teleportation!

While I agree, the real difference is not consumer acceptance as much as technical capability. Years ago there weren't nearly as many consoles connected to the internet. I don't know what all the numbers are off the top of my head, but I think it's above 75% for PS3 and 80% for X360 (with Wii somewhere around 30-40%?). But it wasn't because people just decided to plug in. More it was because the console manufacturers made the online experiences so painless as to be transparent.

An MMO on X360 would in no way suffer from the install/patch process because the former is merely putting the disc in and the latter can happen automagically. PS3 would be the same. Wii would probably be more a pita, but we're not talking WoW for Wii either (though that would be the literal End of All Things).

This is quite unlock the fifth and sixth generation consoles that may or not have been connected at all and which didn't offer nearly as compelling reason to bother doing so.

I love how Triforcer is so excited about this ultra-generic game. We can all watch his little heart be crushed in real time.

Wow, that came out of nowhere.  But I had forgotten that being cynical is ultra-trendy.  Please bring up my potential DCUO sorrow the next time you go to that one club who only plays bands that haven't sold out to the fascist crypto-patriarchic capitalist neocon  machine with your fellow Nader supporters. 

Nader? Wha?

Chill dude, I was kidding around. You have to admit that you are to this game as Falconeer was to Vanguard. I'm just curious as to why you've chosen this game to get so excited about. I don't remember you being the exuberant sort.

Also predicting that a new MMO will probably under-deliver is less cynicism than sober realisim.

Ah, sorry for the unnecessary backlash.  I read that as meaner than you meant it.

Still, I don't know why I am excited this time.  This fires my imagine just as much as SWG did pre-beta.  Something about how they are designing it, the comments they make on the game makes me think that this could really be a winner.  And I love the D.C. universe much more than any fictional MMO universe IP to date.

It will probably be console-y and lame, but we all have our hopeless and doomed crushes  :oh_i_see:  And given that SWTOR is apparently not an MMO at all, this is the only thing that looks even remotely like its trying to do something different. 

You should have seen him, a lot of us to be fair, early in SWG's development. :heartbreak:

Once bitten twice shy?

Not to ascribe motivations on others, but that's probably why you're most excited by this.  To me at least, a lot of the mechanics and design decisions for this game look highly questionable.

I like the DC universe but not in the comic-geek sorta way. Just because it's cool and includes a few characters many of us would be if we ended up filthy rich or overpowered at 18  :grin:

I'm excited for DCUO mostly because it's using what-I-consider-to-be console controller inspiration to deliver a console and PC game. I'm tired of target autoattack some-button mashing. And during those times when I'm not tired of it, I don't need anything other than WoW.

It's initially why I liked TR so much. Being different at all is enough of a draw. But of course it has to work too. So I'm excited for DCUO because they're doing the different-enough, but only cautiously optimisitc that they'll make it work well.

I share this opinion.  Since I'm not particularly interested in the DC universe, the design is important to me.  It hasn't grabbed me on that level.

They have heroes based around a bunch of slacker computer gamers?

I dated myself there. I wasn't a slacker computer gamer until my late 20s  :grin:

If you had the money you would have started earlier than your late 20's because you could have afforded ENIAC. ;D

lol! Not THAT old. Maybe Space Wars with those MIT guys...

There's a lot of "ifs" here that'd need to line up for me to go from the sloth I have been to Batman... but I'm convinced in some parallel universe I did that for a bit before getting KS'd by some serious mob types. Or maybe it's the sauce and the Burn Notice season finale, whose to say?  :grin:

This. I've been around too many MMOs to get into the "isn't it awesome I can team up with Batman and wow open world PvP sounds interesting and it'll all be awesome" phase just yet. Until some hard details come out about exactly how the mechanics are going to work - probably late open beta is the only time such info is trustworthy - everything is up for change.

I also expect to see some of ChampO's design decisions change how DCUO is going to operate, simply because it'll serve as another test case for a superhero MMO.

I suspect it'll be the other way around. I don't know how well DCUO will turn out but I do think ChampO is much closer to business as usual. Which in this genre means designing for the prior generation rather than thinking forward to a new one. And it's based on the premise that CoX was "fine", going solely by how much things are not changing, at least on paper. Even setting aside the rest of the genre, I'm curious how this title is going to be anything but CoX 2.0 in the same ways WAR was a sequel to DAoC.

On that: remind me to look at that post again once ChampO's NDA drops. I have some thoughts on the matter that can wait until June.

Based on my limited knowledge of either, ChampO's power selection seems like the biggest change from what we always get.  If it work well, however, it will give future games a look at how to break away from static classes.

Nothing I've heard about either game otherwise makes me think they'll be ground breaking, so I'm not sure why you think DCUO will be so much better and revolutionary.

I really wonder if the market is large enough to support three superhero games.

I think it'll be interesting to see how the "create your own missions" aspect of CoX will play out.  That seems like the largest difference in design when these go live.  Will it be enough to keep CoX alive?  Or maybe CoX will be just fine, and the new kids will have too many launch issues.

I agree with you lantyssa, ChampO's power selection does intrigue me.  I'm really skeptical they'll pull it off with good balance though.  If they don't blow it with plain number imbalance I expect them to slip it in soft factors like avatar control or attack ranges.  And I forget whether PvP is slated to be included at launch.

There is probably enough room for 5 superhero games.

For me the question is:

Is there room for multiple generic-IP MMOs when the comic book IP worlds arrive (the first being DC and the next eventually being Marvel).

Pretty sure it's been announced that PvP is in ChampO for launch - Emmert has said he's aware of what happens when you launch without it.

As for IPs: DCUO is going to get a hell of a boost from people wanting to play in a version of the DC universe. On top of that, SOE and Warner Bros are going to get behind marketing this title like its a cure for cancer. Now, whether it keeps those players depends on the quality of the game play and some of the design decisions (the 'optional' open world PvP that opens up depending on the missions you do is one of them).

Sorry, how many games is it currently supporting that have elves?

This post demonstrates beyond doubt that there really is such a thing as a stupid question.

But are these really "superhero" games, but just normal 'ol fantasy MMORPG's with superhero skins?

Is it a superhero game where there are 3000+ superhero's running around the same city?

What are they trying to model?

Also what superhero chooses their powerset?  (Batman?)  Isn't it mostly some accident?

I will start hitting people if we have a fiction vs. function argument here too - I've seen too many "but Superman can do it, so we should be able to do it in-game" discussions in my time to cover the same ground again. It will require an expensive plane ticket and a very long flight, but I will show up and get Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back on people.  :angryfist:

The key difference in comics is that the writers can generally pass the criminals around so that everyone gets a shot and the 'accidental' powers nicely fit with a character theme. A lot of comic book tropes are writer's vanities and then driven into the ground over 40 years of monthly issues.

What makes the superhero genre? Funny costumes and property destruction. If the title has lots of costume options and the ability to break lots of things, then yes, it's a superhero title.

The market is big enough to support however superhero games as can be built... provided those games can actually differentiate between themselves. From what I've seen so far, that won't happen with the 3 superhero MMOG's out. DCUO, ChampO and COH all appear way too similar to each other.

ChampO and COH are the exact same game, mechanically.  DCUO is played like an arcade game so at least it plays different.

No, they aren't.

This.

Let's wait and see if ChampO and DCUO even end up being good games before we start worrying whether or not the market can support them all.  If they both end up being complete ass, I don't really give a shit whether the market is big enoungh to support them or not.

When I got to play ChampO it played almost exactly like CoH but more DIKU.  There was just different bars to drain for abilities I believe.

That.

You didn't play CoH much then. CO has no refresh timers and instead your spammable (as in button mashable) basic attacks charge up your "special attack" meter. Gives combat a totally different feel than CoH.

Any chance of a private forum for the champions online beta here?

I guess I really don't see it as much a difference then.

Which doesn't bode well for CO if people are having trouble distinguishing between the two combat systems.

Not even a little.

I count about 6 f13'ers in the ChampO beta. Might not be enough to sustain a private board, regardless on how much I'd like to discuss the title outside of official channels. (Which, for those Cryptic people who might be looking, I haven't been.)

Oh, I suppose I should have been more clear.

It doesn't really deserve one and I'm not going to round up Cryptic people to make it worthwhile.

If you watch videos of both games side-by-side, they have a different mechanic toolset in place. One is fixed powers that use endurance, the other is a much wider range of run-and-gun powers (little rooting in combat) that can be used to build endurance that you can then use on more powerful attacks.

Which is fine, so long as you are one of those people who see all diku-muds as EQ in a new suit.

This.  I'm still waiting for the people who insist everything is like COH to say how they would make a superhero MMO that isn't like COH.  It obviously couldn't involve superpowers or costumes since COH had them.  I'm thinking you would login and see see presidential heads photoshopped onto turkeys debating zinc mining policy while Peyton Manning stood in the background crushing saltine crackers and pouring the crumbs onto a radish.  That is probably the only way to be sure the game isn't exactly like COH. 

You guys should relax.  Better yet, fanboy it up some more for some entertainment.

Beta knocks the fanboism right out of most people. Most people.

I'd say a super hero game would be different from CoX if it wasn't "kill monsters and quests to get bellchimes so i can add another button on my ability bar." It certainly might still have some derivative features, like costume creator and what have you, but I think NOT having some CoX derived features would be a serious mistake in a super hero game.

Don't know where ChampO fits in for sure, but I'm guessing it's going to be fairly DIKU.

The Matrix Online.  :grin: :awesome_for_real:

DCUO (and The Agency) delayed until 2010.  (http://www.gametrailers.com/viewnews.php?id=577)

I don't think it counts as a delay yet, as no one takes the first date announced seriously anyway.

MMOG date changes should only count as 'delays' once you get past about 2 years later than the initially announced date.

Calendar year 2010 or fiscal year? And when does SOE's fiscal year 2010 begin? I could look it up but I don't have time right now.

Just recently ended, they're part of SCEA now.

Ok. So SCEA is in Fiscal Year 2010 as of April 1?

Yes, March 31st is the end of their fiscal year, I should've been more clear, sorry.

Hmm, if its already getting pushed back to 2010, I believe we will see holidays 2010 or early 2011.  It seems more complete than that now, but something will come up. 

"It seems more complete that that" exactly how? The single area of Metropolis they've polished for public showings? With pre-generated characters because player generated characters aren't yet possible?

Sorry, but I'm really waiting until all info about DCUO (and ChampO for that matter) is released to really judge how well it is going to work. Just looking at demos is never going to cut it.

Hmmm, what?

I believe UnSub is referring to the fact that like ChampO's early demos, they're running the same couple of characters over and over.  Pre-made characters who are built to use the powers they have feature complete for demo purposes.

I can assure you, having seen and done it myself, that player generated characters were possible AT THE VERY LEAST, before last October.

They use pre-generated ones publically to keep things simple and fast.

They might be possible, but they really haven't been showing that feature at all. Even to journalists who get more time on it in private back rooms. If it did work, they may have changed it now to fit with other design changes / system additions.

Everything I've seen has said, "Our char gen will be awesome, but it's not done yet".

Not might be, it is. I have sat at SOE and done it.



Gaming doesn't have journalists.

I'm pretty sure I saw character creation at NYCC.

You did. Full character creation, ability choosing, all that has been in for awhile. The demonstrators are just using characters they already know how to play well enough to show the hey-check-out-how-I-kick-ass functions.

Ok cool. And yea, only wanted to know because them saying "2010" could be Fiscal 2010 which means it could actually be this summer. I've never actually used fiscal year in normal conversation but am surrounded by people who do it so often they forget the average person wants to know when something is available, not when it'll appear on financial statements for tax purposes  :oh_i_see:

March 31st is the end of their fiscal year, but they'll be moving into FY 2009, not 2010.

It looks like the stage demo for DCUO on Gamespot got nixed but TTH has one, and it's from the villain's perspective..

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/69230

Holy fuck do they need to work on the animations.

Bland generic promo trailer. (http://au.ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/755358/dc-comics-mmo/videos/dc_universe_online_trl_e32009trailer_60409.html;jsessionid=4bqofh39032rm)

Flying within an instanced mission (http://au.ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/755358/dc-comics-mmo/videos/dconline_thepoweroflightnin.html) - pretty ordinary animations. Features Batman.

Throwing things (http://au.ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/755358/dc-comics-mmo/videos/dconline_barreltossing.new.html) - watch metal bounce like rubber.

Boss fight (http://au.ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/755358/dc-comics-mmo/videos/dconline_thealienturd.new.html) - really looks like you mash the buttons until the boss falls over. Features Superman, who won't shut up.

I know it is the DC IP that brings most of this title its power, but it seems you can't do a mission without tripping over a major DC character.

I think that the industry is getting the idea... that there are people tiring of WoW that may be looking for something new.  The rude awakening comes when these ex-WoW players give your game a shot only to discover that they miss the streamlined and well-crafted experience they got from WoW.  Blizzard has raised the bar and anyone offering a new title should be aware that players will no longer settle for slapped-together-wanna-bes, even if they are dressed in a new shiny.


Forgive me for repeating what others have said for some time now. 

It seems that the promo guy seems to use "action oriented combat" to describe what I would like to call "button mashing combat"

I'll base what I say only upon that which was available for the E3 audience - none of this is from the inside:

If you are mashing buttons, you are doing it wrong. It may look like that, but it does not invoke my button mashing madness (mainly brought on by DOA) when I'm playing.

Why does the presenter harp on DC celebrity characters showing up in-game all the time? Yeah, we know that. My guess is that is mainly a marketing nugget against CoX, and for the DC nosepickers who debate the color of Batman's underwear. But they won't survive on subs from just those types.

No amount of "ZOMG it's Superman... again" can save crappy gameplay. I don't care how many famous characters grace my screen. It all comes down to how it plays.

I am not saying this doesn't look promising. I like what I see. It just scares me when someone harps on something so much; it is often a sign of "Hey look over here" instead of at the fist coming at you.

Looks very much like it would be a bit of fun that fades quickly due to repetition and shallow gameplay. I'm not sure this will worry the CoX guys as much as the champions online developers who are very much aiming at the same space with an infinitely weaker IP.

New DCUO competition:     

Who's your DCUO BFF? Tell us and WIN!!! (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=170495422&blogId=500665186)


If you make people do something this lame, you should at least be handing out closed beta slots.

Aion says hi  :drill:

DCUO had a demo running at Comicon. The wife and I watched some dude play for a little bit, nothing that hasn't already been shown to my knowledge. The art was very bright and four colorish, and the animations needed some work. The one interesting thing was the demo area was FFA PVP, and I probably freaked out the marketing chick when my jaw was on the floor, but alas it was a special area only made for the demo.

We got VIP passes for a party going on at one of the hotels Saturday night which is basically a meet and greet with the devs (and Jim Lee, which the marketing chick mentioned like 12 times), so if anyone has any specific questions I'll see what I can wring out of them. Or if you have anything you want to say to Jim Lee, who's also gonna be there. Have I mentioned Jim Lee is gonna be there???   

Jim Lee is apparently a reason we should all be excited about DCUO.  :oh_i_see: I'd more more excited if he hadn't been handing the work onto his studio to do, or was actually doing the modelling and animation work.

Any questions outside of "when's beta?" don't mean anything at this point.

Ask him why Spiderman 3 was so bad and whether he thinks it has damaged his creation.

Spiderman 3 never existed. And if it did, it was actually based off the ultimate universe.

Some of the stuff coming about about DCUO from Comic-Con (and I'm going to rip the key points straight off DCUOSource.com (http://www.dcuosource.com/)):


Marv Wolfman (and Geoff Johns) creates the stories, SOE creates the missions: (http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/07/dc-universe-online/)


Video showing combat (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/sdcc-09-dc-universe/53249) and the 'rally or flee' system - on a map you can rally after death three times, each time reviving in the spot you died with less than a full HP bar. After the third, you have to flee - you get revived a short distance away with full HP.

"There will be a 2 at the beginning"

So I guess no DeLorean's nor 992 year development time frame?

The two things that stick out for me are sidekicks and a shard-less game. Wish I had time for ComicCon this year.

I also noted the "late-game armor".  Possibly loot?  At least you can keep your appearance.

Jim Lee != Stan Lee

If you see Jim Lee ask him what his brother's (Jae) been up to.

And how his uncle Bruce is going. He'll love that.  :awesome_for_real:

Finally got home. Unsub beat me to most of the stuff that was talked about but here's what I got at the VIP event (apologies if some of this is redundant/already known):

Missions will be dynamically generated. Jens said that there will be no gangs or villains on street corners - the city will appear normal but your presence will generate content. If I understand this right, there will be no "zones" in the normal sense, and that you can pretty much go anywhere at the start of the game.

Wes Yanagi said that levelling will be very fast, and the intent is to get players into the endgame as quickly as possible. A different answer about sidekicking was given at the party, that there would be no sidekicking option per se but that the power curve between levels is much less pronounced than in other games, so that a lower level character grouped with a high level character could still contribute. Also PVP-wise that a group of lower level characters can easily take down a max level character.

There willl be PVP and PVE servers, and on the PVE servers there will be areas and missions that will flag you for PVP.

There will be loot with costume pieces that give stat bonuses. You can change your look while keeping your stat bonuses - no mismatched uniforms due to gear.

Jens said that places like Metropolis and Gotham, etc will keep as close to the lore as possible. Plenty of LOTRO-esque easter eggs for the explorers.

That's about all I remember. The party itself was pretty badass, a catered afffair with a DJ. Everyone got a Catwoman poster signed by the devs, Marv Wolfman and Jim Lee.

So what is the endgame?

I asked if the game would require 20 or so of my closest friends to play at the end, the answer was: "No, but it is a social game". Take that as you will.

Ideally it's when the players stay subscribed to the game but no longer log in to use valuable computing resources.

Sounded to me like it will share more structural similarities with Guild Wars than World of Warcraft.

They should have used Christopher Lee, that would have been much more awesome, and half the internet would still think they were talking about the Spiderman guy.

I got a few questions answered a while ago.  Interesting thing about gear.

A shardless game?  How is that even possible unless you are designing Gotham to be the size of a small country?  And if you do that, and less people play, isn't that a problem too?  

Or do they mean they are using that dimensional zone bullshit from AoC?  Hai guyz, everyone is standing on X but it takes 20 minutes to get us all in the same VERSION of X!

EDIT:  wanted to say I am still more excited about this game than SWTOR or STO.  At least DCUO is trying to be an MMO, not a single-player game where you and your ten AI-generated group members pew pew away in your own private instance. 

Guild Wars has one server, potentially many instances.  Usually only a few because people are so spread out, but during holiday events there can be hundreds of districts.

The question is how many per.  Guild Wars can hold quite a few people in one.  AoC not so much, which still has servers on top of it.  CoX is kind of a middle ground between the two.

Meh.  I don't like the district model, particularly for PvP.  Unless there is a "scent dimensional trail" ability to follow people, that would be  :drill:

I am glad we are going to see PvP servers though.  I don't like STO's PvP model, which sounds like it will be a tiny sandbox of neutral zone PvP amidst a giant PvE game.  

Also, teleporting foes into one-shotting guards is of course of a must. 

schild, you should have started a DCUO fansite.

http://www.dcuosource.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47:deathstryker&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=56

I don't understand.

He was just some guy with a website, and now he has a job IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY.  He's the next Lum! 

You don't follow f13 very closely.

Wait, what?  Off to the front page once I googe its URL. 

I should totally try to get a job in the gaming industry, you're right.

You filthy sellout!

Once you do, schild, be sure to pad your payroll with friends and relatives.

Wait.  Didn't you just get a job in the gaming industry?   :ye_gods:  How many do you need?

Imagine if having a fan site about a celebrity could land you a job as their personal fluffer.

Where does he work?  His Linkedin page doesn't have anything new.  I'm honestly confused here.  Is he a WoW developer? 

I'll give you a hint.  It's somewhere under the MMO Discussion forum, and it's not in Eve.

And he lives in Austin.

No sub fees for DCUO, cross compatible servers between the PC and PS3. (http://www.onelastcontinue.com/10953/gamescom-2009-dc-universe-online-impressions/) Or so it is claimed.

Time to start my Scarlett Johansson website.

Probably a very reasonable decision when you want to pull in a massive number of console gamers who are probably more comfortable with micro-transactions. I can easily imagine them being lobby / mission based as well to keep the action up, grouping informal and the cost of servers down.

This kind of cross-platform server is actually something worth exploring first.

Wondering about subs though. Maybe FR is paying for itself with MTX? DCUO seems like the kind of high-cost investment one doesn't risk with a model that so far hasn't work in the west outside of the much lighter Flash based experiences.

I think Guild Wars only real problem wasn't the budget concerns for their expansion based system they had, they ran into apparently a game play wall. I think considering the nature of superhero games your better off not having a sub system, your content is not made to compete with the fantasy treadmills. And you will probably make more money with expansions anyway.The only problem is that the DCUO budget is probably bloated due to using the DC IP. In which case the micro transactions, something GW kinda avoided for PR reasons not for business reasons, will probably be the primary way to make money beyond the box sales before any expansions are planned.

DCUO launching November 2010. (http://pc.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-dc-universe/100701) It's in the last 10 seconds or so of that video.

To my knowledge, DCUO hasn't started any kind of public beta. Even closed.

As a title it is planned to launch on both the PS3 and PC simultaneously, although the servers may not be linked.

Now, allegedly the in-game footage used in that video is actually from 2009 and things look better now. I'm guessing this new footage will be shown off at E3. Probably Gotham.

So... 6 months to launch, including all public testing over two different platforms.  :awesome_for_real:

That is- strange.  The game still doesn't even have a real website. 

The site is beyond awful. They seem to luuurve Facebook, though.

DCUO had a weird hiatus visibility-wise. I remember SOE making all sort of noise back before Champions Online launched, but then the game sort of drifted out of sight. Didn't they have a semi-playable demo at E3 last year, with heroes and villains fighting in opposed PvE missions, or some such? If memory serves, it looked somewhat engaging, though not release-ready by any means.

Who knows, maybe it's all the cross-platform stuff that has held the launch back.

Same Jens Anderson interview, but this time with new Gotham footage. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-dc-universe/100701)

I'll leave my comic book nerd hat over there about some of the fights, but really wasn't impressed that all the melee fights were stationary affairs. As soon as players get to them, they won't be.

Meh, not that impressed by the video.  Talked a good game, but what dev video hasn't said all the same things.  If/when they actually release on the PS3 I think they'll have a good following, but I don't know about the PC, where the super hero MMOG genre is pretty saturated already.

The super hero MMOG genre has never left the "smaller game" leagues.

Not that CoH and Champions haven't had numbers in the six digit range, but really, that's only saying that they have had the attention of hardcore gamers. Not that it's reached out beyond to the potential audience.

I'm going to hazard a guess that people were tired of paying for the development and it's just being sent out to recoup whatever it can.

I could be totally wrong on that.

I can't prove it, but anecdotally CoH/V brought in a lot of first time MMO players who weren't interested in fantasy games.

DCUO might do the same, especially on the PS3. Depends on the business model and how well it plays, of course.

I just don't think there are that many people interested in a super hero MMMOG.  I mean, played a lot of Champions when it was first released and the last phrase I would use to describe the community there is "hard core gamers"  I suppose its possible that a truly exceptional super hero game could draw a bigger crowd, but I'm not convinced the market for it is all that big.

It might have had an impact if DC hadn't turned their brand to complete shit during the development period of this title.

To be fair, DC has almost played second fiddle to Marvel in my opinion.  They have batman and....well thats about it.

DC has the Trinity: Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. They make mad money on the merchandising.

Forget about the comics. The group who reads them regularly are a small, weird group that I'm not even sure that the comic book companies care about. It's about the characters and IP. There are people interested in DCUO who have never picked up a comic in their lives because they want to fight alongside Superman or spend time in Gotham.

(Not to say that SOE won't have made some decisions that will drive these folks away, but no-one cared about what was happening in Detective Comics when Batman: Arkham Asylum came out and sold 3m units.)

Hmm, perhaps.  But there is a difference between playing as Batman, and playing as a shoddy knockoff of Batman, at least in my opinion.  Also, Superman and Wonder Woman are pretty much terribly cliches at this point, I don't know who really cares about them.   Maybe you are right, but I don't see how this would draw more fans than something like Champions.  Maybe it will sell more units just based on the brand of DC being more known/popular than the brand of Champions, but I can't seeing it have any more retention past a month or two.

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/743/thedarkknight49fakebatm.jpg)

Well, aren't you all a bunch of sourpusses. It's a new mum-mum-morpeger with garish costumes, silly names and face-punching. There's absolutely nothing not-awesome about any of it. Where's the enthusiasm? And no, "because SOE is the devil and the game will most likely suck" are not valid excuses.  :yahoo:


I'm not so sure. DCUO would have to take a pretty colossal nosedive to achieve worse retention than Champions. I agree with you on the IP part, though. All licensing ever does is get you a shot at an existing audience. After that, it's up to the game to deliver the goods and convince people to stay.

For my money, if DCUO manages to nail combat and sports a bit more depth in its gameplay than CoH/V or Champions, SOE might have something here. Still, as many have already pointed out, it's the PS3 reception that will make or break this title. It'll be interesting to see what their business model is.

It's quite pretty at least. 

I never thought much of this title in the first place, so I'm not really being any more down about it than previously.  It's an IP I don't like and past videos did not inspire me in the least.

To be a little more clear, my use of the phrase "hard core gamers" is more from the everyman's vantage point than that which we share. We think of hardcore as an extreme compared to the world we know. To normal folks, even knowing what MMORPG, MMOG, MMO, MMOFPS, etc. means is an indicator that you are hardcore. WoW broke that to a point, but the average person who recognizes Batman, Supes, etc. quite likely has no tactile understanding of what a MMO really is.

Further, there was a time when the mainstream wouldn't have anticipated superhero movies breaking box office records - but they have.

Superhero MMO's have that potential, that WoW does - because the IP can have massive appeal - but the ones we have seen to date didn't have an IP that was custom built for the masses, and aren't non-gamer friendly.

DCUO has the right IP - people will understand the idea of "I'm going to play this game and help Superman." which leaves the implementation as the big question.

I would be immensely surprised if it had any depth at all. The video's I saw made it pretty clear they were designing for the twitchy console based gamers (as was champions online at the time). Very small number of powers, lots of mashing your attack powers and trying for a "pick up and play" game style with a strong solo experience.

The IP of World of Warcraft is totally worthless to someone who isn't a "hardcore gamer." Therefore if you are comparing games to WoW based on IP strength and recognition every game has the potential to be a WoW.

MMOs are all about customer retention and word-of-mouth - which are 99% game quality and 1% IP.

You're probably right. I rummaged around YouTube, but all the clips that featured hands-on gameplay (with visible UI) were almost a year old. Based solely on that one newer video I've seen, it's hard to say how combat has improved since then. The one thing that did strike me about those older vids was how flat and lacking in tactility the combat seemed. A bit cringe-worthy in a way, since one of DCUO's gimmicks is supposed to be using the environment as a weapon.

Who knows, maybe "DCUO and depth" turns out to be an oxymoron. SOE has kept quiet about non-combat activities, so it might be prudent to approach this title as an arcade action game with a multiplayer component, as opposed to a full-fledged RPG.

My enthusiasm is already waning. I have no follow-through.

I'm curious how launching with only two main zones plus a heavy level of PvP is going to hit DCUO. If it is box cost plus item shop or some other non-sub model, it might work out.

WoW is, and always has been, the exception. It is the only Western MMO that has broken out of the fold and actually hit the mainstream, and it was all about word of mouth from gamers to gamers. It has gone beyond that and is the first MMO for many a person, but it's not a national brand like Bounty paper towels (the quicker picker upper).

No MMO has done that.

So yeah, we agree, mmo's to date are about customer retention and word of mouth referrals - where we differ is how big they have reached. IMO, they simply haven't yet. They are a very viable corner of gaming, and very profitable, but they are not very mainstream.

DCUO has a shot at that, because of the IP. Stack a good, new to MMO'ers, game on top of the IP and it's entirely possible that it will bust out. Stack a standard MMO on top of it and it's going to be in the typical niche that mainstream really does not know or understand (even if it's profitable in that niche).

Didn't WoW have a very long open beta to suck people in, too? A long (literal) f2p done competently and with some polish before release didn't hurt.

Open beta was short (2 weeks). From Blizzard's perspective it really was just their final stress test (there was a FilePlanet user-specific stress test right before the open one). The closed beta starting in March didn't have an NDA, though, so people interested in the game could learn about it in detail well in advance of release.

Yep, refreshed my memory.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=52.0

 :awesome_for_real:

I seem to remember that Blizzard encouraged players to post public reports on their awesome time in closed beta, too.  I see a few at a glance in that old thread.

The DCUO E3 trailer (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/06/14/world-premier-of-the-dc-universe-online-official-e3-trailer/)

Because a fuller version of the footage is around, it is clear to see how a number of criticisms against DCUO were downplayed / hidden in this trailer by having quicker cuts between the action.

Six minutes of in-game footage. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPST4E9EEMQ&feature=player_embedded#!) I have to admit I was positively surprised. Quite a difference compared to a year ago.

Also, according to this article from Massively (http://www.massively.com/2010/06/17/e3-2010-dc-universe-online-takes-it-up-a-notch/), DCUO will launch with a standard $14.99 a month subscription fee.

That did look good.  But is the game all punching and kicking?  Where are the actual, um, powers? 

Yeah, that looked good.

However, at five months from launch it isn't a good sign that things like the 'secret identity system' can't yet be talked about.

A few tidbits I've picked up from random articles:

(1)  There will be PvP servers- good.  Only lame battlegrounds would have been stupid.  Even WHO, the ostensible "PvP" game, had carefully constructed tiers and open RvR lakes.  If these PvP servers are truly wide open (maybe they won't be, I suppose I could live with plus/minus 10 level restrictions) it'll already be a superior PvP game.  I want the PvP servers to be fucking Beirut, where you can't take a stroll down the street or do a quest without random gankers. 

(2)  3000 people per server.  Again, good.  None of this fucking stupid "all servers are one server, you enter a random instance with 98 people" shit.  YOu can't build a community or relationships that way.  

(3)  There will be a total (at least at launch) of 80-90 named heroes/villains.  EACH will have an iconic suit of endgame armor if you stick with them as your mentor.  So Batman and Superman and Joker gives stuff out, but you could end up with a Psycho Pirate or Blue Beetle set of equipment if you stuck with them instead.

Well shit.  That was kinda awesome.

I'm going to elaborate when I do my big writeup in the E3 thread but this game looked horrendous at E3, one of the worst games there.

Not sure if it is in here yet (and even some people at SOE E3's stand appear confused) but it appears pretty certain that there won't be cross-server PS3 and PC play (http://dcuosource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4707&sid=04e5d7e7a97e7caceaa5c49c1b5293f8).

Saw this and thought of APB.

Just to confirm: box cost and sub-fee model with item shop. The original plan was for it to be PvP heavy, but I'm not sure what the difference between a PvP server and a PvE server would be in that case.

That six-minute video was the first decent looking thing I've seen out of this game.

Beta keys are being given out at ComicCon if you can make it to the DCUO session on 24 July. (http://www.superherohype.com/news/articles/103749-the-comic-con-saturday-july-24-schedule)


Spare DCUO beta keys always welcome. (Not sure my PC can play it, but I can worry about that when I get the key!).

Wish I could see it right now but YouTube appears to be taking the Mickey atm. I will say from the above comments that it's preventing me from resubbing to CoX which was a fav for many years. When I see a glimmer of hope in the posts of f13...it makes my heart beat faster and I feel the world is possibly once again safe for democracy. My faith in MMOGs is beginning to renew...

This game isn't out yet? Between Cataclysm, SWTOR, and FFXIV, this thing is falling farther and farther into irrelevance.

DCUO Source fans are currently into the "They only need a month for a public stress test before launch because SOE have been doing friends and family testing for a while now" phase of launch anticipation.

DCUO announces their pre-order bonuses (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150232611185717), THEN the open beta registration notice (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150232617260717).

Seems a bit backward to me.

Can we change the name of this thread, given that it launches in a few months?

I thought this game was going to be free with micro-transactions which seemed to well suit the shallow and simplistic / PvP focused gameplay. Subscription fee plus MT means it had better be a whole lot more impressive than anything I've heard so far.

But it's SOE, so I'm going to assume it's terrible.

I'm preordering- I just pray it isn't as shallow as Champions Online.  Or that the "huge" world is empty because the real content is instanced out the ass.  Just fucking once more in my life I'd like to play an MMO that isn't addicted to instancing.  It's lazy and immersion-breaking and renders the "real" world of the game meaningless and useless. 

And THIS is the gaming your hanging that hope on?

If I can get a couple good months of open world pvp on the pvp servers out of it, that's enough for me.  Screw this fucking arena and BG shit.  What is the point of PvP if the other side expects you to be there and attack them? 

This game does not give me an MMOrection at all. I honestly cant see 1 thing that makes me want to play this. 

Men in skin-tight leotards? No?

I'll give this one a whirl, even if it turns out to be a tepid vacuous shell of an action arcade game fishing for a monthly fee. Still waiting for info on whether the PC folks can mingle with the PS3 crowd, though I have a sneaking suspicion the answer will be no. Or did they release that info already?

You do realize the missions in DC Universe Online are all instanced, right?

I honestly thought he was just trolling.  "What is the point of PvP if the other side expects you to be there and attack them?", almost made me post, "I expect better from you, have you been feeling alight?", or, "that's just lazy, I know you can troll better than this!".

Exactly, what is the point of any other kind of pvp?

I was serious.  The thrill of the hunt in PvP is what matters.  You disrupt a guy from leveling, repeatedly.  He tries to watch his back, brings friends, maybe the next night he ruins your leveling.  Grudges and blood feuds spread. 

Doing instanced PvP in MMOs is deliberately choosing to pay for something inferior to what you get in free FPSes.  The ONLY advantage of MMO PvP is the anytime, anywhere, aspect of it (assuming the game has open PvP). 

All you are saying sounds to me like "i want to fight people who have no chance to fight back".  Thrill of the hunt my ass.

2001 called, it wants its tired cliches back.  But I guess you are right.  Why do hunters go in the forest when they can just hire a company to restrain a deer in their backyard and shoot it point-blank?  Fucking forest griefers. 

Deer fight back?

Stop shitting up the thread.

DCUO originally promised that players could interfere with opposing players who were on their way to do missions via PvP - the whole 'hero versus villain' thing. Then they announced PvP servers. God knows what the end result is going to be.

I agree with Triforcer, if you want organized instanced PVP why not play a game that does it well? A game with better controls, a better combat system and less reliance on stats and gear. The main draw of MMO PvP to me is also the free form nature of it, otherwise you're getting together to play a really bad version of a different game.

Now where Triforcer is wrong is that DCUO is going to be absolutely terrible, most likely worse than any of the generic free MMOs at E3. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being one of the worst MMOs of all time. I will happily quote myself down the road if I'm right, if not Triforcer can mockingly quote me.  :awesome_for_real:

DCUO does one heck of an intro cinematic. (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/exclusive-who-dc-universe/702049)

However, this makes 3 superhero MMOs from 3 that appear to kick off with an alien invasion as the primary threat.

Plastic action figure smashem kapow! ka-bloey! bash - bash - bash...

So dull I didn't make it to the end. It was a bunch of IP based fan fiction that didn't focus on the only hero I care about... the one I'm going to be making (were I to play the game). I fear the game will be full of the same sort of thing with lots of "you get to be batman's peon! how lucky are you!".

Blizzard (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFTWDJ25zdc). and many others, are a whole heap smarter. An opening sets the scene, stirring music and "adventurers" doing cool things in cool locations. You can be one of them and visit these places.

I saw Blizzard's Starcraft II cinematic and thought it was a cliched POS, full of manly men with manly voices based on the Gears of War School of Voice Acting.

Personal preference of course - I appreciated seeing Black Adam and Superman go at it.

I thought it was one of the best trailers ever.  Not that it tells me absolutely anything about the game, but i'd be lying if i said i wasn't more interested in playing after watching it.

I think this is pretty much whats going to happen.  Its one of the reasons I bought Champions instead of waiting for this actually (as if I couldn't get both is I really wanted  :awesome_for_real:)  Champions has its share of problems, but damned if you can't make a real cool hero.

I think that part where Batman says "Cyborg shoot at Luther while I call in an air strike" is going to sum up the Hero - Player relationship.   

"Do what I say, I'm the god damned bat man"

Well, he is.

About the thread title: beta applications have opened, it's not open beta yet.

You can't be serious, right?  More like "I harass someone who can't fight back, person logs off and decides to play WoW instead."

Fixed so no one is misled and breaks down into a pile of tears.

Too late for that, my friend.

You can tell it's a very modern MMO. They've announced a complex pre-order bonus scheme before they actually start beta-testing it.

Saw something about being able to play Batman. So they're including a copy of Arkham Asylum with every preordered game?

Also, box cover art has Batman and Joker more prominently than Superman (Superman.) and Luthor. I found this amusing.

I think - not 100% sure - that some arena matches will allow you take over as key DC characters to fight it out in PvP.

For the 5 or 6 years DCUO has been in development, it really does seem a lot of things are being left to last minute. Especially beta. Again, DCUO Source has been a, well, source of amusement for the "they don't need a long beta - they've had internal friends-and-family testing" posts.

Sounds like the pre-order bonus,

Can someone help me identify some of the characters on that trailer?  Like the giant chick, the electricity shooting chick that kills Wonder Woman, the guy fighting Batman when the Joker kills them both and the guy fighting the Green Lantern (Sinestro? i thought he had a yellow ring? He does yell Shazaam! and Luthor calls him Adam).

Black Adam fought Green Lantern, big chick is Giganta...

Cool fight scene at least. OMG Joker sounds like Mark Hamill and Batman sounds like Kevin Conroy, etc!

Ah, Giganta i should have known.  Never heard of Black Adam, odd he got a starring role on the trailer.  Still don't know who the guy fighting Batman was, i think Luthor called him Destro but that's a different cartoon.  Also the robot fighting Wonder Woman, just a henchbot or is that a specific villain?

Batman was fighting Deathstroke (also known as the Terminator, at least until there was some sort of legal action I believe) who has the power to predict what his opponents will do in a fight. If you think he looks a lot like Marvel's Deadpool that's because Deadpool was a 90's rip-off/parody of him.

Black Adam is a Capt. Marvel villain, one of the few villains it would make sense to have take on Superman one on one.

I think the Robot might have been Metallo (the man with a Kryptonite heart), that's just based on all the green glowy stuff. Not really sure who the chick that killed Wonder Woman was though.

Apparently you can choose your mentor in the game from a large cast, with the end result being a special armour given to you by your main mentor (so if you picked Blue Beetle you get some rip-off Blue beetle costume, likely leading to a million people wearing Batman's costume). I think this is going to probably be like Guild Wars with an IP.

It is Hamill, and Conroy.  Not sure who the chick, or the robot were, though.

interesting design.  Hopefully this won't suck donkey balls.


So other than Free Realms, DCUO is SOE's first big MMO after EQ2?   I know the Agency is in perpertual dev, but if this is SOE's next flagship MMO I would hope they've learned from EQ2 and CoX and WoW.   Are people optimistic at all?

Myself? Cautiously. I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. I'm not head over heels have to buy it on Day One yet.

I guess so, dude took out Green Lantern, Flash and Cyborg and survived what looked like a nuclear explosion that he himself caused.  Is the character creator going to be anywhere near Champions or APB levels? the idea of getting a set of armor from your mentor makes me think this is going to be more like WoW type armor sets than a premade character look.

The woman fighting wonder Woman is Circe, from the mythological side of WW's rogue's gallery.

Any word on if they'll grow some nads and include some DC Vertigo stuff?

I got the impression that the armour is going to be a set appearance derived from (or possibly even some copy of) that mentor's look. Also Black Adam is basically evil Capt. Marvel, Supes level strength and speed but a magical power source, the nuke was him speaking his magic word, that grants it with a lightning strike. I'm kind of annoyed at armoured Flash though just because the dude is already dealing with super speed friction, the armour can only be cosmetic. Of course if that was the smallest lore issue with the whole game I doubt it would be any fun to play at all.

Apparently if you go through that trailer frame by frame you can see Green Arrow's corpse and that Harley Quinn is wearing Robin's cape.

As for character customisation: DCUO has to have been watching CoH/V and ChampO. They know a robust character creator is a basic part of the superhero MMO. Won't be as good as APB, but should still be pretty versatile (although early comments were that certain costumes would be locked to certain origins, like magic outfits for magic-based characters).

Also, you can equip armour loot and then choose to disable the appearance of it, EQ2 style.

Green arrows corpse was pretty blatant, no need to go frame by frame.

The Joker sounded ok, but Batman sounded like someone trying to mimic Conroy without having Conroy's talent.

But it is him.

Then he really phoned it in.

Or he's getting old. He's been voicing Batman for 15 years, or just about.

I thought that was excellent. Cautiously looking forward to this one.

ITS A TRAP!

It's an intro cinematic. Don't get excited about that. Warhammer had a good one, too.

This man speaks the truth.

Good trailer, was exciting.  If I draw anything from that it's, "cool, they care enough about this game to hire someone really good to create their trailers, hopefully they also care about their game".

Sounds fun but what could they put in? The Vertigo comics don't have many heroes that win battles by punching people.

Giganta, as usual, has a walk-on role. I'm not even sure what she was doing there except for "I'm going to walk idly in a war zone and get FLATTENED ON MY ASS LOL I HAVE GIANT TITS"

How did Giganta ever survive if one energy blast kills her?  She is rather a large target. 

I thought she had a thing with Gorilla Grodd...

Well to be fair to her it looked like the battle was well underway at that point.  Something had to flatten the city and Green Arrow was already toast.  What bugged me is that the heroes fared horribly in the fight.  Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Batman and Cyborg only manage to take out Giganta, the Joker killed the only other bad guy with his rocket.

Every "we desperately need your help"/What-If plot has the heroes losing horribly.

There's not much call for help from Peace World 001.

Heh. Maybe they have a jar that needs opening! Couch moved! Cat up in tree! Peace World 001 is more stressful than you think...

Nope.  In these worlds, the mad scientists have banded together to solve all those everyday problems.  Robotic furniture movers!  Rubber jar grips!  Ladders!

Damn those mad scientists! They've made the world predictable! Mundane! Boring! Our citizens need excitement! So the heck with heroes, they need villains!

So, there was an interesting reveal at the Fan Faire.  If you have never ever followed the history of MMO development, ever, prepare to replace your shattered monocle.

- ORIGINALLY: 10 powers, each with a possible Meta, Magic, or Gadget origin (I.e., you could be a fire wizard, a fire meta, or a guy shooting a fire gun)

- NOW:  6 powers.  Fire, Ice, Mental, Nature, Gadgets, and Sorcery.  Beyond the obvious that 6 is less than 10, see what they did there?


They were pimping Electric, Earth, and Light constructs (think Green Lantern) at every demo until now, but there has been a recent "massive overhaul" in the game's design  :oh_i_see:


Also, a level cap at release of 30.


EDIT:  Release is Nov. 2, in case it wasn't obvious from the above

:ye_gods:

Not surprisingly, but 6 really standard power sets is not going to cut it.

The really stupid thing about that is when you start trying to classify DC heroes into those six groups, and find out that the majority don't even make sense.

And in all probability the majority of the powers are similar in operation and differ mainly in animation and visual appearance. So all of them will have bolts, holds, stuns and maybe one or two unique functions. Certainly the guy demonstrating mental powers in the video was spending most of his time shooting headache bolts and demonstrated a "mental force sphere" to hold an opponent.

No super strength brawler type in there? What?

Yeah, I thought that was noticeably absent as well. Maybe "nature" means "Natural ability?" (strong/fast/whatever?) Thats pushing it I know.

You'll see! They'll add in stats and that will fix everything!  :grin:

EDIT: Watched the video:

- 10 weapon types, each with combo trees. Combos restore your power (endurance) you use to activate superpowers. Includes dual pistols.

- Each of those six power sets has two 'trees'.

- Iconic powers include heat vision, cold breath, GL shield bubble.

- Skill trees offer movement power advantages and other benefits. Contained within weapon trees (?). Achieve 'feats' (i.e Achievements) to buy weapon types.

- Defender, healer, controller roles, but "everybody fights" (has to fight to build combos that fuel powers).

- Travel powers are still flight, acrobatics and superspeed. You can upgrade them.

- The Big 6 are: Lex Luthor, Joker, Circe, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman. These characters are head of each origin (meta, tech, magic) for each side, and your origin picks your 'mentor' (which of the 6 your character story is most heavily involved with).

- Episodic content i.e story arcs. Plus end game content, groups, raids, alert zones (open missions that TP players into an instanced zone).

- PvP: open rule allowing players to flag their status. PvP raid experiences available. Legends PvP sees you pick pre-existing DC characters and fight it out.

- Major cities are Gotham and Metropolis. Seamless zones.

- "Business decisions are still to be made".

- Travel power 'race' mini-game.

- Launching with level 30 cap.

ADDITIONAL FROM SOMEONE WHO SAYS THE WERE THERE (http://www.dcuosource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=137678#p137678):

 - Fire and Ice are Tank powers. Nature and Sorcery are Healing powers. Mental and Gadgets are Controlling powers. Every character gets DPS.

 - UI is still the subject of a lot of work.

Best way to sum this game up is that it has me looking forward to the first month - but I have no expectation of subscribing whatsoever.

I will not be the least bit surprised if Batman / Joker are the highest of the high when it comes to people picking up them as master.

This sounds pretty awful to be honest.

It's not really a crowd puller to be honest, unless you can be a member of Batman's Outsiders or Green Lantern Corps.
This one's pretty much going under the radar unless they can show something that make City of Heroes look outdated. If all they have to show for is IP, then I'll wait for Arkham Asylum 2 instead.

They've been riding the IP hard for a while now as their key selling point.

I had a thought the other night that although it is launching on both the PC and PS3, they are treating it more like a console title release than a PC MMO release. Although I'm sure SOE wouldn't mind if DCUO sold (and maintained) big numbers on the PC, I get the impression the real focus is on the question, "can a PS3 MMO get and keep console players?".

Lol. Oh Lantyssa, you're too much. This post made my think of some Dr. Robotnic, with some crazy Rube Goldberg machine with lots of spinning wheels and crazy extendo arms, just to get him the mayonaise out of the fridge.



WTF power does superman fit into here? Or does being from a planet with a heavier sun count as 'nature'?

SOE hasn't really thought to answer that, other than to point at the iconic power tree and suggest he gets a lot of powers from there.

Sunlight is natural, right?  :grin:

Massively interview with Chris Cao. (http://www.massively.com/2010/08/28/exclusive-interview-dcuos-game-director-chris-cao/)

When asked about what powers are available for players:


It's just under two months til launch, still no announcement of a public beta date (open or closed) and large changes are going on behind the scenes regarding basic gameplay features. Ooo, launch is going to be fun.

EDIT: DCUO will also be on SOE's Station Pass.

They said beta would start first week of August.  I'm betting that's the exact time someone who actually codes said, "um, this game is 18 months from being ready for release."

So, cue the two month delay (my prediction) to get 18 months of work into about 3 months.  

Origin doesn't need to have any more impact than it did in cox.

I imagine superman and joker are considered 'meta' origin because they 'just do' have powers, and the main impact will be on mission text/cutscenes which won't refer to magic or technology.

I doubt this is SOEs biggest concern on DCUO right now.

Yeah this has fallen into the scary category.  No beta to speak of at the moment meaning OB will be too short so a lot of problems will make it to live and many systems just wont get the testing they should.  Tie into that what sounds like some fairly signifigant changes to basically one of the most important parts of any MMO(Abilities) this close to launch.  I was willing to give SOE a fair shake but so far all I see with this is the same ole same ole.  Its likely the best thing this game will ever be was that trailer. 

Beta still hasn't started in full yet? Two months away? AND they are changing fundamental aspects of the game design?

Proper fucked.

Unless they push back the release date, otherwise ......  :heartbreak:

If you know the game stinks no point in letting people have a good sniff before you've got their money.

I'd not be surprised if the open-beta is also timed (like APB), limited and primarily promotional. I also expect we'll be seeing this approach a lot more. Especially in the wake of APB exploding.

... I'm old enough I remember when SoE were relevant :(

Actually a fair amount of info in the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Online). Wall of text warning

Jens Andersen says (on Facebook) don't plan on getting into the beta, just get ready to buy the game. (Link to a forum post) (http://www.dcuosource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=162291#p162291)


EDIT: Because I think I'm a bit of a broken record on DCUO - I'm interested in it as a title, but also this is the supposedly experienced SOE publishing a title using some fairly big geek IP and going out to both PC and PS3 at (theoretically) the same time. That it appears to be going completely against the grain of what a good MMO launch cycle should be, it's piqued my interest. Piqued.

Yeah, your beta? Get ready to pay for it.  :why_so_serious:

How is this piquing your interest?  Its obvious this isn't some sort of Machiavellian revolutionary new launch strategy, its "oh shit oh shit oh shit, this REALLY is 15 months from release" panic. 

This is the same company that decided to make Clone Wars a pretty Club Penguin instead of Free Realms in Space.  If past behavior wasn't sufficient, I think we can safely say they are clueless and do not like money hats.

I like superhero MMOs.

Also, outside of the indie MMOs who were probably too stretched to afford a beta, this is the first MMO I'm aware of where just months from launch the devs are still pussyfooting around basic in-game information, such as what crafting will be in the game (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/350/feature/4519/page/1) (from Chris Cao):


WTF was that? What kind of crafting IS in DCUO? What do you get out of it? It sounds like STO's memory alpha system - find salvage trash, give it to an NPC who turns it into an item. It wasn't very popular there.

I could be completely wrong and SOE has been running a secret closed beta that was knocked out all bugs and tested the gameplay, but for a title that will be the first major MMO on a console in a long time, SOE are certainly going about things in a funny way. Beta hasn't even been confirmed as happening yet - no date set - while the marketing budget for this title appears to be less than $20, given the reliance on Facebook, Twitter and devs showing off the same areas of DCUO over and over and over again. There are no official forums.

A lot of people were disappointed with ChampO. If DCUO goes as expected, I think there will be about 10x the reaction from outraged fanbois - especially PC fanbois who find out DCUO PC version is an afterthought.

So, basically the reason we are confused is because you say "Is it obvious?!" and then list a bunch of reasons to stay away from the game like the plague.

To date, I definitely think DCUO is a title to be avoided at launch.

Not trying to confuse anyone, just watching a title I think will be a trainwreck. But then maybe everyone else is in a supa-sekret beta and DCUO is actually the best game evah.

As I said earlier, this has a shot at being the worst MMO of all time from what I've seen.

Any bets on what they will jam into their CE?  Supercape?  Ring?  Jar of lube?

A really rad mask that mysteriously removes your eyes.

A blindfold sounds like a brilliant idea!

Chris Cao releases a cool story bro video: "Jim Lee and I and Jens just played DCUO and it was awesome! Here, let me tell you about it!". (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=159248597418593)

Jens Andersen pops up on Facebook to say that console games usually don't have public betas and they work out fine.



(Post I'm pulling this from (http://www.dcuosource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164269#p164269)).

There's also a few comments in there that the internal SOE testers test "avidly" on PCs and things work fine in SOE offices spread out over the US.

 :oh_i_see:

 :argh:

That's some pretty concentrated stupid there. Badly restating the old forum chestnut of "most beta players are just there to play the game" without realizing that watching how they play the game, what they complain about and how fast they consume content (or avoid it) is valuable insight even if they don't file that many explicit reports. Also that internal testers have a lot of pressure against saying the game is shit... especially if it is.

I hope this fails because I've not seen people both deserve it and invite it to this extent for quite a while.

Oh this one's going to be fun when it launches.

It's increasingly common for multiplayer-centric games to include betas, including Reach and the new MOH.

I remember Bad Company 2 beta, and I think that game benefited a lot from the feedback they got, even though a lot of the changes actually game in the first big patch after launch anyway.

This whole "oh yeah, we got this, don't even worry about it" is, I have to imagine, just to get people to buy the box.  Remember, this isn't going to have a monthly fee, so if they manage to move lots of boxes, they're in decent shape.

What a dumbass

Stand by for Truly Epic Lulz.

Will this be an Infinite or a Final Crisis?  :grin:

So there IS a secret build that fixes everything. WHEW.

Rumours are that DCUO has sent out its initial beta invites. If you've registered for the PC, check your inbox.

Classic blame the testers line.

What feedback one chooses to act on and the execution of the change is where success or failure is going to be had.

This level of stupidity is hard to believe. I could maybe understand it from a company putting out their first MMO but this is the same company that insisted for months that the EQ Shaman ability worked fine because their own internal testers confirmed it. Hundreds of complaints later they finally figured out their internal testing methods did not work and they really did have a bug when not auto leveled.

Besides the obvious thousands of different PC hardware and software differences from real users as opposed to a console it also very hard to test 1000s of different connection speeds at the same time. I bet things run really well when your internal testers have less than 10ms ping times to the server.

Lastly I would like to point out how well EQ2 did against WoW with a tenth of the beta period time. You are supposed to learn from the past.

I can't count how many times I've seen devs say that external testing has uncovered issues nobody noticed in internal tests. I hope the NDA is enforced through launch, that would be the cherry on the trainwreck pie.

DCUO has officially been delayed until "early 2011" (http://pc.ign.com/articles/112/1124708p1.html)

Guess that limited beta thing was good for something after all. "OH SHIT, NOTHING FUCKING WORKS!"

Gamasutra article, same topic (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30770/SOE_Delays_DC_Universe_Online_Until_Early_2011.php)


I'm glad. They could have been stubborn and pushed it live in November.

We'll see if the extra development time actually makes the game better.

The number of 2011 titles is getting excessive   :popcorn:

I'm just shocked at the delay.

The devs look a bit silly now, given that they've been repeating the "DCUO will be out on November 2" for a bit now and mentioning how "high quality" the title is.

EDIT: Beta is starting in November for all those who preorder DCUO. And live in North America.

We knew this would happen when all of 1 month ago they mentioned they were still working on abilities.  Although Im a little disappointed by the move, I was hoping to watch this go down in flames from their way-too-early launch, guess I have to wait until 2011 for that enjoyment. 

To help sate the masses over the delay, DCUO has released some beta combat footage. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEA24bes2gg&feature=player_embedded)

Warning: do not watch if you think you may be epileptic.

The more I watch and hear about this game the less interested I am.

Beta key registration page up - all you need to do is send a scanned copy of your pre-order receipt by November 15 and you are guaranteed to get in. (http://www.dcuniverseonline.com/betakey/)

I do love a pay-for beta. I'm also tempted to sign up, just so I can see with my own eyes.

F this game...paid beta = fail.  This is clearly becoming a quick money grab MMO and will likely be similar to CO and STO.  I would have a different opinion if the game actually looked good

It may be a good looking game and that was just a horrible horrible demo video.

There's too much to look at. By showing a street with dozens of superheroes you're not really showing us a superhero. It looks like they're commuting or something. If you think of the great panels from Batman and Superman often there will be just one or two people. Superman flying through the sky; Batman cradling Robin's broken body - iconic. To show something you have to not hide it amidst a hundred comparable distractions. Compare and contrast the This Secret World video where a woman goes to the fridge to drink milk and then explodes into combat against a cthulhoid monster. The eye knows what to look at in that video.

Another thought is it looks incredibly like the start of Champions Online. It could practically be the same street corner.

And lastly:
Not that I was about to pre-order but if I had been then I would be thinking fuck SOE. When will game developers realise that being treated as second class customers (but generally charged more with that lovely 1:1 $:Euro exchange rate) really pisses Europeans off. It's rude. I'm sure people in other parts of the world feel the same.

While we realise that there may be genuinely good reasons (eg translating the game into French and German) often it just seems parochial. Do people at SOE realise that developers in China and Korea are much more understanding and considerate of Europeans than they are despite the similarities of our cultures?

Wow. That looks terrible, jerky, repetitive. Are they using like two frames of animation per attack?

Part of it may be the clusterfuck nature of it, but it looks like a lot of standing and trading blows with an occasional small knockback thrown in for kicks. Bravo.

Estimates that DCUO's journey from 1 to maxlevel 30 will take 60 - 70 hours. (http://au.ps3.ign.com/articles/112/1126847p1.html) It's going to have to be incredibly fun to hold onto players past the first 30 days.

I remember people saying I should wait for this instead of buying Champions, and now who has the last laugh!.... erm...I guess the people that just stuck with CoX

Muahahahahahaha!

Time to get my photoshop on.

So why not preorder online, print your recepit, cancel the order and mail the sucker in?  Take what..5 minutes?

Is 60-70 hours a lot or a little?

A little.

Because playing the system is probably more fun than playing DCUO.

The way DCUO has been explained is that there are lots of little story arcs (like CoH/V) that lead up to big boss fights (like CoH/V's later levels) with existing DC characters. This makes me wonder about things like content overlap (heroes and villains will be separate, of course, but how much overlap will there be between a character with Batman as their mentor and one with Superman as their mentor?). Plus there are public quests (called alerts, if I read them right) and PvP / PvE blends.

Plus I always find that devs overstate how long it will take to get through PvE content. That 60 - 70 hours is based off a xp-per-hour calculation that may get blown out of the water once players get hold of the game. And then there is the subscription element, where SOE will want players to keep paying to play, so at the end of that 60 - 70 hours there really needs to be some excellent end game systems (which thus far appear to be raiding and PvP).

On PvP, one of the reports made by a dev was that they found in mass tests that CC powers could make it impossible to capture certain flags - the controlling team could lock down incoming targets, pick them up and throw them away (using the physics system) so that they couldn't get access to a location. It became a battle around who could activate CC the fastest. This is going to be a key challenge of DCUO, because since you can use CC and then act on that CC object, it means players can not only get locked down, they can also get thrown away. That might not be much fun after the 25th time.

Balancing CC is hard! I'm glad they're figuring this out now.

It just seems like if you want satisfying superheroic combat (rather than DIKU + spandex re-skin), you've got to have attacks which actually feel like they have impact. Positioning. Air combat. Knocking people into buildings. There's no indication they can do this competently.

I guess maybe the way to put it is like so: is there anything, anything at all even a tiny bit interesting about this game if you take out the fact you get to meet Batman?

One of the problems is that, in comics, if someone gets blasted into a building, you generally have the guy getting up, dusting himself off and then charging the other guy. While the other guy just stands there and lets him. Because in a comic, that's dramatic, and lets the fight go on in a static area, and it fills space. It helps the story. It also helps that Supers are not sued for masses of property damage, but I digress.

In a PVP environment if someone gets blasted away the instigator wont just stand there. But if a game about Comics people are going to expect the dramatic superpower action of people getting knocked around, as that's what they see in comic books. Unfortunately once you take supers out of the controlled dramatic environment of the comic genre, of course you are going to have that kind of break with comic reality. Unless you have people bouncing off buildings right back into peoples faces, and you know how that would be received.

Knockback is arguably the most comic book of effects - sending the opponent flying.

Ironically, it is the thing that is hated most in CoH/V, because it moves targets outside of melee range. It's a perfect clash between genre and gameplay.

The funny thing, its the kind of iconic thing that happens in 1v1 fights all the time, but the gameplay problems happen when you can't knockback for fear of pulling more guys.  And then, all the 1v1 fight boss types tend to be immune..awesome!

Well, comics don't generally have hordes of minions standing around waiting to get slaughtered.  They're either all rushing a target (and thus weak enough to defeat en mass), or just a handful of guys where you can have a dramatic back and forth.  DIKU just doesn't lend itself well to dramatic combat.

I think it's right to think that slapping knockback ontop of DIKU is not likely to lead in fun directions. And obviously, design is tough, etc, etc.

But I don't think that if you start from the design of "there's going to be knockback and CC and people flying everywhere: how do we make this fun?", it's so implausible. Screw diminishing returns: CCing somebody builds up a 'rage' meter. Rage increases speed and strength. Fill it up and the person becomes immune to CC for a short while (which has a strong thematic feel). Give melee characters lenient range and lots of ways to close.  Make a superhero game where travel powers aren't just varying forms of horses.

It's not impossible.  Vindictus is quite fun and would lend itself to more super hero-ish combat if ramped up.  But combat in it is more along the lines of a fighting game than an MMO.  Until we move away from MMO == buttonmash 1-10 + shift1-10 + alt1-10 + ctrl1-10, things will remain more or less the same.

Even GW2 which I think will be somewhat revolutionary in this regard may have a ways to go.

Character Creation revealed (http://www.newsarama.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=NA_101012_dcu-online)

I don't know if revealed is quite the word I'd use. 


Which is a bummer, cause the idea of being BFF's with the Joker, and getting to hit on Harley Quinn all the time has a certain bent appeal.  Unfortunately, from what I've seen so far, I don't think I could stomach the game long enough to do so.

I just got into the closed beta without a preorder, so they must be pretty hard up for apps. I can't find an NDA anywhere but I assume there is one even though it's effectively an open beta with that preorder deal, so I'll just leave it at that.

I got the email too.

I like how they say "... or will you take inspiration from an existing DC hero?"  The sheer number of unoriginal copycat heros will be depressing. 

I may still give this game a try.  If it gives me two weeks of something to do, I'm fine with the box cost.

I remain unemailed with a DCUO beta invite. Possibly because I've been making fun of them, more likely because they aren't interested in non-NA players.

I got mine.  Installing game now.

I was going to register for the beta a while back but then decided my time was better spent picking out my belly button lint.  I could of made the wrong decision but I have doubts

If anyone gets a code they don't want, please PM with it. I promise to not get you banned.

There is no code, they're finally learning to just flag accounts to avoid exactly that sort of thing.

I can get you in "bloodline champions" though! No? OK.

I've got my own code for that, thanks.  :grin:

Not linking to it, but YouTube has a remarkable number of closed beta videos with the responsible characters being fully identified. And these videos have been up for a while. Either SOE is remarkably disorganised in getting YouTube to take them down or they are so confident that the videos look good they are leaving them up.

Looks like more Beta invites went out.  Oddly, makes me think Diablo meets EQ2.

I'm pretty sure you would have had to sign an NDA to start any beta process, so probably shouldn't comment on what you think the game is like.

Yeah, that's borderline.

So, SOE "guaranteed" that if people preordered DCUO by November 15, they'd get beta access by November 30. Right now there are a lot of players asking SOE where their beta key is - a fact not helped by SOE's submission process that didn't send out an email confirmation when people uploaded their preorder receipt.

However, I tip my hat to SOE's treatment of PS3 players. Now, there is still a chance that the PS3 beta will start today, but as of time of writing, the PS3 beta has not started and SOE's response appears to be that giving PS3 preorder players a PC beta key - if they file a support ticket in many cases - is appropriate.

(Allegedly the same key will unlock both the PC and PS3 DCUO beta, but since the PS3 beta hasn't started yet, we'll see. You'd probably need your SOE and PS3-relevant accounts linked in some way for that to work, but I don't pretend to know how those account systems might already be linked.)

I'm curious how SOE can next sabotage the launch of DCUO, but I have faith.

EDIT: Yeah, no PS3 beta starting (but it is "soon") and SOE posted on DCUO's Facebook page that PS3 users are getting a PC beta key in the meantime (http://www.facebook.com/notes/dc-universetm-online-the-official-game-page/information-regarding-the-ps3-beta/10150340012340717). SOE's general attitude appears to have been, "We always meant you'd get into PC beta because console MMOs are hard".

Much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the PS3 preorder crowd.

NDA lifted for DCUO. (http://www.facebook.com/notes/dc-universetm-online-the-official-game-page/thank-you/10150345249240717)

Heh, the overwhelming positivity of some posters must have seen SOE think they can drop the NDA to global acclaim. Either that or the amount of leaks just doesn't make it worthwhile having it up.

So...

Putting aside the unpolished / unfinished parts (e.g. voiceovers not professionally completed, a chat system that makes WAR's launch chat look sophisticated by comparison, no icons on things sent to you by mail, teaming system that is pretty much non-existent, etc) DCUO's core problem is content. There is too little of it. Less than ChampO at launch in my estimation.

I'm still under a level cap of 20 (max level 30) but the truth is that getting any character to level up will see them do missions from all 3 mentors on their side. Each mentor (i.e. Batman, Lex Luthor, etc) has some unique missions, but you'll automatically find the other missions in your journal when you hit the right level. Street grinding is basically worthless for XP, so you'll do those missions, which basically makes replayability with a character on the same side an exercise in repetition.

On top of that, heroes and villain characters also end up sharing opponents, so that both Batman and the Joker (I think) send you up against Bane.

SOE's endgame for DCUO is raids, PvP and collecting epic armour. This is despite implementing a PvP system that seems destined for trouble: you have heroes and villains sent to the same in-game areas to complete similar (sometimes opposing) tasks, such as defend medics vs destroy ambulances. Now, you don't have to flag for PvP, but hitting a PC on an opposing side currently flags you for PvP. So, if you happen to execute an AOE with an opposing PC in range, it can be blood in the water.

Also, I haven't really done any PvP, but I believe that stunlock is completely possible. You can hammer on the shift key to break out, but you'll probably be dead by then.

The weapon / power system works better for some combos than others, but you are currently limited to 6 powers per role - PS3 restriction that is grinding on a lot of PC players. Not all powers are equal, not by a long shot and notes on how they are restricted / what they do (e.g. only one flying drone pet active at a time, despite there being 3 or more that you can get) aren't detailed enough.

If DCUO launches as F2P, I think it will do very well. It is short and fun enough in bursts. It isn't worth $15 a month, especially since you will complete that trip to lvl 30 in probably 2 weeks and left with PvP / raid options to do over and over and over again.

UPDATE: Should add that their is unintended hilarity with the in-game currency system, where you take down the Scarecrow and receive $27 as a mission reward.

In other news, Champions Online going free to play early next year. :why_so_serious:

Seriously though, I think they had a real chance here to pick up on an aging genre (Super hero MMOs) because CoX is on its last legs from what I've heard and Cryptic really never had the resources to apparently do what they needed to with CO, even though their game is better than it was at launch by a fairly wide margin.

Missed opportunity by the sound of it.

It's a real shame, too. The Super Hero setting is basically perfect for your typical MMO. Who knows how long it'll be before we get a real successor to COH.

I played for like a week. They did a great job on the staff combat animations, but guns seemed so much more powerful.  Didn't like how missions were soloable then the bosses were not.

It's a Diku MMO. I played it for a day, got bored, and never touched it again. Nothing broken about it, but nothing special either, no hook.

No NDA? Good. I actually have liked what I've played so far. It's everything CO should have been IMO. My only real gripes so far are that the costume selection isn't as big yet as COH or CO (but I'm assuming that will change) and the console-y-ness of the controls. I might have to experiment with a game controller to see if I like it better. Other than that, it's still in beta so I'm hoping it's not the finished product I'm playing and the combat mechanic is great. You can hard target enemies but I like actually being able to aim and shoot, stomp, etc. The game feels good to me. If I had to go out on a limb, I'd say this is to COH what WoW was to EQ. And the graphics are still pretty good even turned way down. I was afraid at first that my system would evaporate due to the CPU and GPU overheating but I was able to tone things down and still have a good play experience. Two thumbs up SOE. You have potential fun here, don't mess it up!

The control mechanics are one of my biggest gripes with it right off the bat.  I did not like the way it controlled either via keyboard and mouse or by controller.  I don't really have any direct comments on how it could be better, and admittedly it's pretty remappable, but it's the targeting system and some of the movement that I found rather difficult to get used to.

The extreme lack of costume and appearance choices was the other major problem with it.  A lot of costume pieces appear to be earned in-game, which isn't really something I'm a fan of in this particular setting of games.  I don't mind having to earn cooler looking armor in some settings, but the superhero setting seems like I should start with exactly the costume I want right off the bat.  Beyond that is the fact that even at release, CoH had more options for both costumes and physical attributes, and I'm left incredibly underwhelmed by the costume creator.

Other than those two problems, though, I didn't really see any major issues.  A bunch of unfinished stuff like UI elements and quest dialogues and that kind of thing, but it's not going to be released for a couple months, so those can be fixed.  Unfortunately, I also didn't really see anything that really caught my attention, either.  Admittedly I didn't even try out the PVP, which might be interesting although I doubt it, but other than that, I didn't see any indication of anything that would really catch my interest.  It is probably worth checking out for anyone who thinks that this sort of game might catch their interest, though.

I didnt hate it but didnt get the hook for it either even though I did really try and spent a good 10 hours or so the first weekend.  I think the best part of what I saw was it ran very smoothly for me and was virtually lag free so its fairly polished that way.  I had no issues with controls for the most part and it didnt take long to get used to them.  The quests were ok and it was fun to interract with objects in the world both as part of quests and outside of quests.  I think for people who enjoy super hero MMO's they will probably like this. 

It struck me as basically a non-broken version of CO. It has the same action-y setup but fixes all the clunky or broken mechanics like energy building and blocking (respectively). Thing is, a non-broken version of CO still isn't very fun to me. I got more enjoyment out of playing with the superspeed physics and making cars swerve and blow up than I did from any of the questing or combat. I keep meaning to go back and give it another shot, but I just... haven't.

For the record, lumping CoX, CO, and now DCUO together as "superhero MMOs" doesn't sit right with me - DCUO and CO are very similar to each other, but very different from CoX. Could just be the fanboy in me talking though.

I would love to give you my impressions of DCUO since I was in the beta. Unfortunately, their shittastic launcher/patcher which was made in the very depths of Satan's colon, NEVER WORKED. I could never fully download the game, their beta forums were less than useless and what CM's they had on the forums were about as helpful as ball cancer.

I only played for a couple of hours back in October and quickly grew bored. I didn't hate it. I don't have any strong feelings about DCUO at all, actually. I just didn't much feel like playing any more.

Flying around cities and exploring Watchtower was neat, but the quests were pretty basic dikulikes; kill a bunch of bad guys, channel onto a thingamabob on the ground, zone into a little instance killing more mobs, repeat. Questing was all fairly streamlined, but didn't have the polish and extensive scripting seen in WOTLK. It felt like it was one (and now two) generations behind. New MMOs really need to look at the WoW DK newbie experience as a minimum quality level. That was 2 years ago.

Combat felt terrible. I just hit buttons as fast as possible, nothing had any real punch, and action on screen only felt loosely connected to the buttons I pushed. Movement also felt clunky, and while it was two months ago now, I remember hating the mouse controls as well.

If it launches F2P and markedly improved since I last played, focusing particularly on the newbie experience, I suppose it could claw its way to profitability. I don't predict great things at $15/month.

On the bright side, the intro cinematic with all the heroes and villains fighting is awesome. Definitely watch that on Youtube or something.

I got my invite today! No thanks.

I watched someone else play it for about a half hour today, and came away with a headache.

I like how fast it appears to play, but the whole screen was washed with a constantly shifting Matrix-scape of reflective gleams, particle effects, and blink-and-you-miss-it transient combat notifications. I don't know if it gets more comprehensible, but it was shoving so much eyecandy and so many numbers on the screen so quickly, I couldn't understand anything I was seeing beyond "punch the robots."

Or maybe I'm just old.

Other than that, I saw a lot of hitchy and/or missing animations. I'm dubious about the loot system. Unlike CoH which allows you to make your own appearance and dispenses with loot altogether, I saw a mob drop a cloak that changed appearance as well as stats. That seems like a big mistake in a genre where costume is the crux of character identity.

It's a nice looking game. It's just coming off a bit too much for the ADD crowd at first glance.

Equiping a lootted item gives the character the option of using that items appearance later.    Some of the appearances, I gather are unavailable at creation as they give Achievements.  You need to equip the item that's normally BOE though in order to acquire the ability to equip that appearance. 

PS3 beta keys have gone out.

Given that DCUO was about a 14GB download and SOE released an 8GB patch the other day, some PSN people are waiting a long time to see the game even ready to play.

It's out on PSN+ today too for people willing to pay.  117MB tho, wonder if its a streaming install?

That has to be the installer - some PS3 players have indicated they've had their download running for a day or more before DCUO is installed.

Three videos on why the open world PvP of DCUO is not going to gain a big audience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0LYJt6ivLg&feature=feedu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s1wYuqej8k&feature=related (low sound)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AosIHUrp5FU&feature=related

In the first video, the police station is one of the newb safehouses. Yes, it has bouncers that can send a target for 3 blocks (which the villain in the first video uses as a chance to heal back up) but it's still pretty easy for a group to form a 'cage' around the exit.

The second video shows the issue with having heroes and villains contest exactly the same spots for their missions. It sounds great in theory, but when you are a player who is just trying to activate one of the glowies you become a target, let alone fight some mobs. In order to get out of those multiple stuns you have to hammer the shift key.

The third video shows a level 12 hold off a lvl 21, but that's due to the lvl 12 having Nature self-heals which are currently considered the best in-game. Yes, they had some skill to hold off the lvl 21 (who didn't know they had to hammer the shift key to break those stuns) but the self-heals kept them alive.

DCUO has only two adventure zones - Gotham and Metropolis - plus a limited number of Arenas / instanced PvE maps. Stomping the spandex out of newbs (who can only come out of one of three safe houses) is going to be a national pass time. I'm amazed that the game designers didn't think this would be an issue so have taken so few steps to stop it. Or maybe I should just LOLPVP and move on.

Wow, that's terribad. Also, why is everyone jumping all the time?

Do you play MMOs?

A number of retailers have simultaneously indicated a mid-January release for DCUO. SOE is currently not commenting.

Confirmed - DCUO to launch January 11. (http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/12/21/soe-developer-addresses-dcuo-launch-concerns/)

Christ, SOE have just buried this - a launch with about 20 days notice, a patch where they just nerfed weapon damage across the board (a way of extending leveling time) and a chat / team system that still needs significant work. Also critical was SOE's communication to PS3 players about why they should be paying a subscription to access DCUO and they haven't done that - PS3 players will start screaming when they try to return DCUO to GameStop and suddenly find they can't. The cynic in me thinks that SOE is stealth launching this title in an effort to collect the preorder money before various players cancel it.

If DCUO launches as a F2P, it has a chance. If it launches at $15 a month, crash and burn.

UPDATE: read through more links (http://au.ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1141254p1.html). Launching at $15 a month with unspecified cash shop and a $199 lifetime sub offer (PC only). Various PS3 players are rejecting the idea of a sub fee outright and SOE's "more content is coming, we promise" isn't cutting it.

I'll stick by my 'crash and burn' statement and wonder how long it will be for Anderson and / or Cao to announce they are leaving DCUO "to spend more time with my family" (or equivalent).

Thanks for that, just reaffirms my reasons for not buying it in the first place.  The fact this game has a monthly sub is nothing short of retarded....its far from worth it.  I guess they are in a hurry to be the first poop MMO of 2011

They are fucking INSANE. Jan. 11th is way too soon. I can't even load the goddamn game, and get no help from the forums. And they want to launch?

This is going to be a trainwreck that no one will pay the slightest attention to.

Seems fitting for a DC game title for some reason.

Is Green Lantern coming out around then? They may be trying to piggy back on something like that.

Fuck that guy.  He deserves every bit of shit that gives shoveled onto his fat ass because of this shitty game.

Is it just me or does this game not having a friend's list so you konw when your buddies are online?

If it does... it sure is well hidden because I can't find it.

I don't think so.

Common forum logic is that all the GL stuff that DCUO was going to contain is being held back for the GL movie launch, which will probably be the first big expansion.

I know I'm the only one here who care about this, but it is going to be a flaming car crash of a title in about a week.

The latest patch - December 29 - added a number of new bugs that can make playing difficult. DCUO's chat system is still bare bones, probably because SOE expects everyone to use VOIP. Launch is still January 11.

If you feel like it, the pre-order PC beta forums (which will become the official forums) are open for public view if you have an SOE account (http://forums.station.sony.com/dcuopc/forums/show.m?forum_id=12&sort=lastmsg&sortDir=desc), I believe.

They are probably in full on panic mode in SOE right now.

I love the smell of a failed MMO in the morning.

I get such perverse pleasure watching these things crash and burn. I know it's terrible for the rank and file at SOE, but it really is just seeing bone-headed decisions made coming home to roost. Just desserts and all that. I love it.

I just smell poop

Somehow, I agree with both of you  :-P

It's wearing a cape though.

Must be CE poop

I finally installed this game the other day with my dormant beta key.  It wasn't that bad.  My mouse hand was cramped a bit, and I only did the newbie tutorial area.  The game felt like it was fun to play.  The UI for the character creator was terrible though.

It's much better than CHampO.

I haven't played ChampO but from what I have heard this isn't great praise...

It isn't.

Not that I'll be playing this anyway, but the 'native' Australian server is the EU one, which with money conversion rates as they are would see it cost $20 to $25 a month to play DCUO. I'd have to order a US edition to be able to pay closer to the $15 a month level.

So, it's the end of beta and a lot of people are uninstalling DCUO.

Well, trying to. The uninstaller doesn't work properly.

SOE apologised and ... oh wait, no they didn't. Don't you players understand that a correctly functioning uninstaller is an optional extra? (http://skalenda.wordpress.com/2011/01/06/back-to-play/) Manual uninstalls are just as good, really.


Oh, SOE, I await your launch day patch.

Oh that's awesome. That's one of the more clueless, jackass thing I've heard a CM say in a really long time.

Oh that's lovely. When you get a beta tester saying that at least Final Fantasy XIV has gotten better and he'd rather play that when talking about your shitty product that's going to be released in 4 days, you are SO FUCKED. I'm glad to see the fuckups I had just trying unsuccessfully to get the goddamn game installed extended to the uninstall process as well. Good job, fuckheads.

I won't be buying this at release, but I have popcorn and will enjoy reading the comments from those who do.

Oh SOE, we thought you had turned a corner and now you are shoving another crappy MMO out.
All is right with the world.

DCUO is going to be getting a launch day patch that fixes a number of bugs with powers. This patch will be untested by players since DCUO was taken out of public beta 5 days before launch.

Also, as best I can see, SOE hasn't released any server list information about DCUO. Guess they are waiting to surprise people at launch.

Reading this thread suggests there will be no surprises.  We have seen this movie too many times.

As negative as I sound about the game, it is fun in short bursts. You can get to max level is about 30 hours and it is pretty enough. But it is very shallow and lacks some basic PC functionality at this point - I had WAR flashbacks about the chat system and you only get 6 powers per loadout, for instance. (I don't want 50 powers to choose from, but 6 is too limited given the number of powers you can get and choose from.)

What I truly believe will cripple DCUO is how they are treating the PS3 launch. With a sub fee in place, there needed to be a charm offensive about what you get for that sub fee, the advantages of paying that $15 a month, what is about to be released that you'll want to sub for, etc. Instead, the line from SOE appears to be "PC players got used to paying a sub, so PS3 players will as well". PS3 players are a very different group to the PC MMO players who started getting into the genre 10 - 20 years ago.

If DCUO launched F2P with paid microtrans / DLC, I think it would be a massive success. At $15 a month for content that lasts a week? I can't see it happening.

Assuming the PC crowd will pay a sub is wrong as well, since a lot of the kids nowadays are growing up with the f2p market.  I'm surprised SOE is continuing with the idea anyways, since they were the ones to put out Free Realms.

Like I stupidly did with STO, I bought this and will be playing tomorrow.  I'm a sucker for MMO launches.  If I get a month out of it, I'll be happy.  If it is shallow as people are saying, though, I will be rather displeased with a week of content.

I predict a free-trial in 30 days.

UnSub's "week of content" is not an exaggeration. My girlfriend (who is a sucker for both MMO betas and DC Comics in general) borrowed an old FFXI guildmate's beta account a month or so ago. She was level capped in about ten days of playing 2-3 hours a night, skipping a few nights. The villain content adds maybe another four or five days of play on to that.

*popcorn munchin' pic*
 
:awesome_for_real:

It's really weird in a way. The genre as a whole works really well as a MMO foundation, even a DiKU one. DC's intellectual property is an attractive hook to boot. And yet, here we go again: subminimal functionality in some of the basics, easily broken game mechanics that very quickly spoil the pleasure of the game for most players, and such a small amount of content that most players will become bored within a few weeks.

At this point, whether I was the guy licensing intellectual property or the money suit authorizing the development of an MMO, I'd sit down with a potential development team and ask these questions:

1) Can you come up with a way to generate content rapidly, whether procedural or otherwise?
2) Can you come up with a way to make some kind of PvP work as something fun to do when players don't want to work through PvE content?
3) Can you come up with an endgame that isn't just about shittastic grind that will keep only a few hardcore obsessive catasses amused and subscribing?

If the team doesn't have detailed answers for at least one of those questions that isn't just a variation on "Yes, like that game over there only slightly better or different", I don't license the property or approve the development.

They did create an awesome intro cinematic, though, got to give them that.

Oh wait that was Blur.

Are you sure?  Their 50 million must have went somewhere.

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2011/01/11/dc-universe-online-50-million-gamble-aims-for-audience-that-world-of-warcraft-cant-touch/

Yes, that's what will set it apart and attract the masses.


:oh_i_see:

Factual inaccuracies aside, they are banking on the market of a third place console to give them that edge? There's just so many problems and comments I can make on that article.

50 million + 5.5 years -> about a week of shallow content?

There's something wrong with SoE.

It does help explain why it has to be sub-based. They need a lot of revenue coming in before the game dates and fades. I'd expect a F2P game would want a smaller investment and plan on having iterative development (and more fodder for the cash shop) over a longer lifetime. They've effectively priced themselves out of that option in a similar manner to APB.

One of the things that surprises me a lot is that DCUO basically appears dumped in January. Only 21 days notice to launch, and in very early January? I can't see what amounts to a stealth launch being a positive thing for a MMO.

The only advantage I can see is that a quiet launch won't hammer the servers as much, which helps with initial impressions and gives some time for fixes.

http://latimesherocomplex.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dc_scr_plyract_jsa_007.jpg

Do you see that?  Screw World of Warcraft: there's two people there in a deserted environment with SWORDS.

And they're going to autoattack kick each other's asses.

I saw someone say that armor drops in the game change the appearance of your character. If true that's just...  :uhrr:

I believe that you have the option to allow the equipped items to effect your appearance or not.

That's way way better then.

This makes me wonder if they will change the rate of xp gain at release (a la WAR).  I don't know if they even have enough content to get away with that.  Perhaps with it being SoE, you can just grind bad guys for levels. 

CAMP CHECK!

Joker camped, could use another dps.



MMO just sucks the soul out of everything.

Giantbomb has a livestream of DCUO gameplay going on right now, in case you want to see how the trainwreck looks.

Doesn't look like a total train wreck, but it doesn't look worth playing either unless you are really in love with DC.  If it was F2P I'd run around Gotham for a few hours.

There is much hate in this thread... knowing nothing about DCUO, I picked it up and it is quite fun to play.  Way more fun than Rift.

It is different than your standard Diku... and I am enjoying the difference. 

I'll make you a deal.  If you're still feeling this way in 30 days, I'll buy a copy and play it. 

Or if he can even explain how it is "different" that doesn't amount to "It has superheroes" or "You don't *exactly* level up".

It would be awesome though if you could loot some shoulderpads, equip them and suddenly get a "You're a 90s DC Superhero!" achievement. Maybe they could even call it, "You're ready for the Bloodlines Annuals!"

Once you equip that armor you then have that armors appearance customization available to you.

The mouselook and LMB melee, RMB ranged is quite different and you generally need to aim to hit (although you can lock onto a target and use your powers, iirc). If you haven't played superhero MMOs, the travel powers are quite a change.

It is a more dynamic combat system where you gain advantage for moving, dodging and blocking compared to (say) RIFT where hitting and missing are more based on the dice roll.

It's fun for the first few hours / the first character, but starts to bog down when missions are just repeats of 'defeat X of Y in this area' where X goes up 5 / 10 / 15 etc as you level up. You'll work out what is the best combo to take down PvE targets and just repeat that for every combat situation.

DCUO has done well in the first 24 hours, in as so far that they are launching two more PvP servers (one for the PC, one for the PS3). Looks like they've got 14 servers - 7 per platform, split into 4 PvE and (now) 3 PvP rulesets.

I am just happy to buy a game that isnt a shittier WoW.

My fear is that DCUO is a shittier COH.  I haven't seen/read anything that convinces me otherwise. 

Here's yesterday's GB stream. I missed way too much so I'm gonna watch it again. If I don't I'll be an idiot and buy the game. http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-dc-universe-online/17-3674/

 

Bah they took the video offline to re-encode it :(

Justin TV (http://www.justin.tv/fiox1) live play and answering questions from chat.

I last played CoH in around 2005.  Would be pretty hard to be shittier than that.

What does the year have to do with anything?  CoH was and is a good game. 

I beg to differ, good sir.  It was, in my opinion, a pretty awful game back then.  It may, indeed, have improved by now, though.

But these are all opinions, which is my point, I guess.  Much hate in a thread by many who have not played a game...

I'll go ahead and say that in most respects it is a shittier CoH. Not that CoH was shit (I loved that game for almost 4 years before the shiny wore off). DCUO has the potential to be on par with CoH but it seems like it's all icing and very little cake. Not as many costume or character customization choices, not nearly as immersive gameplay as CoH (IMHO), not nearly as fun as CoH. Now it could just be my own personal view of things. I compare CoH to EQ. I much preferred EQ to EQ2. EQ had horrible graphics by comparison but there was something about the gameplay and world that was more compelling for me. EQ2 seemed like a half-assed try at making a better game simply by making it prettier and in some ways more complex. I prefer CoH to CO and so far DCUO. Worse graphics but funner gameplay. I like DCUO's combat though. That part stands out and makes things feel superhero-ish (throwing cars and junk). Everything else is kinda 'meh'. I was amazed that the hero and villain tutorials were exactly the same. Come on, would it have killed them to come up with two scenarios?

As I'm writing this I think I can conclude at least partly why WoW is so successful. It's a game that isn't groundbreaking but it's polished, fun, and most importantly has a very carefully planned, well thought out, and executed world. Back in the day, both EQ and CoH could claim the same. I felt like I was part of those worlds and wanted to be in them as much as possible. Most MMOs today just don't have that draw. They're just too damn generic, always focusing on the mechanics and not the fun. I know, no real revelations here. Just me musing and trying to sound like I know what the hell I'm talking about.

It will be very interesting, though in my opinion a fairly obvious result, to see if DCUO can remain actively in development for as long as CoH.

Though CoH will remain a sad case of unrealised potential... but then isn't that the long term narrative of MMO's.

So I bought this, and I'm glad to say that there doesn't seem to be a choice for boob size.... :ye_gods:

Holy shit, someone write this down, I think he's on to something!!!!!!
 :oh_i_see:

Heh, I did say that there was nothing really new there. Just me mentally coming late to the party.

Newer MMOs are games, not worlds: that's one part of what they've drawn from WoW (get the rails on the rollercoaster laid down correctly). Even the limited "world" feeling of WoW they can't match because it takes creating more content than they can afford or understand how to make. There's a few exceptions: LOTRO keeps plugging away at making content, for example. But the more common low road to take now is the Champions/Star Trek Online road: fast development cycle, low costs, massive understaffing of live management, make your profit from box sales to people who love the genre or the intellectual property, not from builiding long-time subs. That approach is never going to lead to anything that feels remotely like a world.

I got a villain to 30 earlier today.

At 30 a good chunk of content unlocks (2 raids, 4 team instances, 4 advanced team instances, and a bunch of daily/solo stuff/gear tiers). Me and two other 30's ran one of the unlocked team instances, Arkham Asylum, and were pretty much blown away at how well done that place was. It was easily one of the best layedout zones I've seen in an MMO in recent memory (3 wings, 3 bosses, and each wing is themed around its boss).  We only managed to get up to Poison Ivy before she proceeded to roll us several times over due to a mechanic we really needed a 4th person to handle.

Team PVE mechanics were a lot tighter in comparison to the Leveling team-content. Mobs will use avoidable AoE, need to be tanked, and cc'd. Definitely a big step up from the 1-29 content. Ivy herself was considerably more involved than any other boss I've seen (multiple phases, lots of adds, lots of environmental abilities).

Lastly leveling in general seems to be replaced with a more gear/costume centric progression with tiered gear. All in all was a pleasant surprise considering I wasn't expecting much.

A friend of mine bought this on PS3.

His fiance created a bright pink cartoon rendition of herself and has been playing nonstop. Some of her friends are even into it.

They are talking about how bad-ass it is on Facebook.

This was my impression from beta. Granted I didn't get a character beyond level 10. But there was nothing at all about the game that made me want to continue.

If the game captures this audience, its a coup of epic proportions.

Maybe this will be the next big breakthrough and we don't see it because it's not our first dance with an MMO. These people probably have no pre-conceived expectations of what the game should or shouldn't be.

I see commercials for this on TV and think, man, I would have put that money into the game.

I think that about WoW too.

anyone here playing this on a PS3?  Im DC-curious.

Fuck, I can't believe I'm seriously considering buying this game. But I am.

I'm starting to think that this game may be fun in brief sessions with a set group. 

Oh wait, that's nearly every MMO. 


(Still, I may give it a try just for a week of diversion)

I'm getting the same feeling - if I can limit how much I play per week, I could probably like this game.

I feel fortunate in that I'm already playing too many other things to even consider this.  It will probably be 6 months before I'm bored of everything else, and I will think about playing on a PS3 - which will force me to limit my playtime.  Ideally in 6 months time this game will be a bit more fleshed out.  Wins all around for me!   :drill:

I was told that the PS3 and PC servers are separate... which may be the best news that I've heard about the game.

Is that confirmed? I have 0 interest in this title, and was only reading the thread to answer that very question for a friend.

It's specified in the official FAQ they are separate.

For those of you that are playing-  am I missing something here or is the character creation process limited and lame?

It starts out limited and lame with the idea that you will get new costume pieces from drops (or trade tokens for the epic armours).

So I've seen basically 1) Wall Running and 2) Gotham that make this game look like anything other than an EVEN MORE simplified CO or CoX, I'm not sure why people are getting all giddy over this all of a sudden?  I guess if you are a DC fan thats probably enough to justify it, but having played Champions a while back for a month, I can't see how this looks better at all unless you absolutely MUST be in the DC universe rather than the Champions Universe.

Granted, even at my most jaded I've been nicer to Champions that most of the folks around here, and my recent experience suggests the game has improved quite a bit since the train wreck-ish release.

There's a scroll bar in the character creator for more options.  It's easy to miss.

is there as much variety in class/power creation as CoX and CO? 

No. Three 'classes' - tank, controller and healer - and everyone can DPS. Every class has two power types - tank is fire and ice, controller is gadgets and mental and healer is nature and sorcery. Every power set has two trees plus there is a larger pool of miscellaneous powers anyone can choose from.

Weapon types are separate from powers and you have to choose one weapon type (and you can choose another one later down the line).

EDIT: Oh, and your power bar can only hold six powers at a time. DCUO has you much more dependent on your weapon than superpowers.

Yeah, I was missing it.  And the option for changing colors.  

In the end, they should have just plagiarized COs character creator.  That is the best one I've seen so far.  

Edit:  And I have to say that it is a little bit irritating that you go through the character creation process to get a cool look and then the gear you pick up changes it to something completely different.  Oh well, maybe that part will grow on me. 

There's an appearance tab, and a nifty one at that. Basically, each new piece of gear becomes an option you can turn on or off. So you can make Arachnid Person and have him stay the same until you give him an all white suit for the Public Wars.

  

I am struggling against an overwhelming sense of weariness in that I know to be a responsible asshole with asshole opinions I will probably have to try this.

I played for a couple of hours. Made an undead ice man tutored by Lex Luthor. He probably sucks, will roll something more thoughtful later. The game mechanics are kind of like a superhero diablo in three dimensions, which is atm a pretty fun thing to learn. It's been a long time since I've been completely clueless in an MMO.

 

Cool!  Thank you for mentioning that.  I probably wouldn't have looked for it otherwise.  


It's a whole lot like CO so far. 

OMG, the Legends pvp mode is awesome. 4 Harley Quinns versus 4 Robins! Also, Joker's Vault. I love Mark Hamill.

This game has made an extremely good first impression.

Are you playing on a PvE or PvP server? 

Its Batman: Arkham Asylum meets CoX/CO...only much worse than any of them.  Which is bad since that means its worse than CO. :ye_gods:

In a "I'm quitting smoking" fit, I bought this. So, who can I play with once it finishes downloading?

I'll play with you.  I'm still testing out what I want on the character creation front and haven't really gotten into the game much.  Just let me know whatever server you're on and I'll start up a character on it. 

It's not widely said, but the impression I get of DCUO is that PvP is going to be a big focus. They've got a lot of different PvP options - Legends, Arenas, etc - and the SOE interviews keep talking about how much they love PvP.

Right now it is all new and exciting, so PvP is more balanced, but once players get familiar with the mechanics I think the casual PvPers are going to be hard pressed to maintain a winning streak. Plus the FFA PvP servers are already seeing max level players camp outside safe houses to pound on the newbs.

It appears that there are PvP zones on the PvE servers.  I've been having some fun with that now that I've finally gotten through the startup quest.

Edit:  Oops.  I was on a PvP server.   :grin:

Ok, I gave it a shot.

Made me realize that evolution is working in reverse: it's worse than CoX and CO, which is really an accomplishment.

Seriously. Worse character creation process than two games where their primary strength was a character creation process. The creation UI is freaking HORRIBLE compared to CoX or CO. How can you do worse when you have two fantastic models?

A power selection and levelling process that is about as opaque as filing your taxes, and feels hobbled by the intellectual property's requirements.

It looks ok. That's about all I can say so far.

These days when I hear the phrase "we have a very strong PvP focus" I pretty much read it as "we don't have that much content".

I'm on the high pop EU pvp server. It's very gankalicious atm.

I like combat, the voiceovers, the general look of the game.  Things feel more intuitive and faster than CO.  I would really be hooked on this if it had roughly 4x the content and twice the number of powers.  Its obvious this got dumbed way down for console (6 powers only at any time).  Plus, as others have said, you are much more reliant on your weapon than your powers.

I'm starting to think that cityscapes aren't the best setting for superhero games.  All the buildings are pretty, but 95% of them have nothing on top.  Its like if a standard fantasy MMO zone had 5 minute stretches of absolutely no enemies before you came to a small clump of them.  I actually think the game would be better if the cities were shrunk considerably, but more was going on everywhere.

The lack of a ton of powers isn't typical for an MMO, but it does fit a little bit into the superhero genre.  Most superheros in comics didn't have but 2-3 things they could do that would be called "powers". 

I totally agree with the cityscape issue.  It gets pretty bland.

While true, there also tended to be a huge variety between heroes.  Not just six things.

Also true.  I suppose I thought he was referring more to the limited number of things on the action bar.  They could easily add in some new types of power categories though. 

To me, not having 20 different things to do and 4 action bars is kind of nice. 

I think a limited amount of active powers, chosen from a larger list, is the way to go for mummorpgers. However, it should be done the Guild Wars way. I feel DCUO isn't quite there, but then again I have no idea how to do a build yet. It's still very enjoyable, especially with iconic powers in the mix.

My group is up to 5/6 on the level 30 alerts, and wanted to add that powers (and definitely roles) become a much bigger deal at the higher end due to how much harder the mobs/bosses become. In retrospect I'd say the 1-29 game is mostly just an introduction to some of the lore and basic mechanics. At 30 you focus a lot more on roles, gear, and achievements (which for every 100 points net you a skill point). Right now I'm spec'd in 4 different weapons just for the passives on healing bonuses. My little 29 dmg rifle shots fall short of my 600+ hp heals ;).

The power bar itself is better to imagine being like how GW sort of works as opposed to something like CoX. The powers you're using work better with the gear you're stacking. If you want a more fleshed out weapon'y toon stack precision and pick powers that boost weapon dmg. If you want a power toon then stack might and pick more direct dmg type powers. Around the higher 20's you'll start seeing role specific gear for healer/controller/tank which makes their role related powers considerably stronger.

I want to try this game, but this thread is very 50/50 on the impressions.

I'm sure that if you wait 3 months, you'll be able to buy the game for $20 or less.

Le sigh. My daughter pronounces it awesome.

Combat's not bad, but that's always been the strength of superhero MMOs: they get the look of combat in a comics medium right. Doing the Scarecrow missions at the moment, and it's ok. Very very like CO, though, so that I can see what's coming in terms of the rest of the game not really working right.

Well poop, looks like EU login servers just went tits up. Perhaps SOE didn't expect it to be this popular?

Yes, and you'll also be able to decide what the overall consensus is by then and see if they are going to make any improvements. 

Anyone playing on one of the PVP servers?

Consider: we have several people already giving reviews of end game raiding. It's been out less than a week. Come back in 6 months when there's more than 2 weeks of content.

I couldn't get into the overall gameplay or feel of the game.  Dunno why, but I just couldn't.

I assume this did not launch with a free trial?

It had a pay-for-beta, so that'd be a no. :-)

I'd wait at least 3 months for things to settle in - there will probably be a Green Lantern expansion announced and you'll be able to see if SOE is delivering on their monthly content / quarterly major update promises. Plus you can see what the cash shop holds.

Regarding powers: my biggest bitch was that you can only have one pet out at a time, but the Gadgets / Traps (?) tree is loaded with them. It is the central line of that power tree, so if you wanted to progress you had to buy redundant powers. There never seemed any reason to use the 'lower' weapon turret if you'd got a better one, while the combat drone was weaker than the Iconic one that anyone could get.

I've seen Chris Cao out talking about how even they have less powers, they are better powers than the competitors, but DCUO is still using slightly reskinned repeat powers through a number of the trees.

Hmm.. well, it could be that I haven't played an MMO in (years?) or that it's on the console, but the game is pretty fun actually.. not sure what the naysaying is about. It feels like CoH, but with more polish in the quests.. not to mention that it's DC, which is far cooler world than CoH was. Like all mmos there's a lot of room for improvement though..

The quests do have some pretty good storytelling polish to them. If ever there was a game that needed phasing of some kind, though, this would be it--it's pretty jarring to the storytelling that's gone on that all of what I've already done is still there, because the narrative hook is not "I have to go kill ten boars in a forest full of boars", it's "I have to stop a sinister plot/set a sinister plot in motion".

I have to say that having the Joker as a mentor on the villain side is kind of a hoot, given how great Hamill's voicing of the role is.

The servers finally stabilized in the evening and I got some solid playtime. I really enjoyed it. I like the console style combat, and the feel of the locations is well done. I leveled a villain and hero to level 5. It was really cool how the two different bases really felt different.

I am hoping to meet up with some people to play. I created a Hero on Public Enemy, and a villain on the super high population pvp server, Death and something I think. Anyway, I dont mind rerolling, but I am hoping to play on a PVP server.

I don't really know how to react to the slowly emerging consensus that this is actually pretty fun.  :ye_gods:

I got a beta key without pre-ordering.

Probably should have used it.

I picked this game up and it's fun as hell.

Low expectations + honeymoon period. CO was fun for a week or two as well.

CO would have been better with some form of PvP.  

Edit: And the developers of this game will likely not pull the Cryptic trick of "hey here's a pile of shit, don't step in it" by not improving it really at all. 

Obviously not, SoE has a wonderful reputation for rapidly adding new content to their games.

I thought CO was dogshit when it came out.  I never liked COX.

I've played this game a lot over the last two days.

Just my perspective.

I just came back from a questing session that devolved into a giant pvp melee around a demon-infested police station in Metropolis. Fights are furious, death penalty is nonexistent and there's a repeatable quest for pvp kills. At one point I was ganking some lower level dudes and soon they all ganged up on me and beat me to a pulp. Ten minutes later there's a whole bunch of max level dudes clearing out everything. Emergent gameplay fuck yeah!

They have to their games that are worth a shit, e.g. Everquest 2.  Of course that's all they have right now that's any good.   Why put money into the shitty games like Vanguard?

It's fun, just not in a "I want to pay $15 a month (or US$20 a month if I live in Australia) to keep playing" kind of way. I'm sure some people will, but I'll be interested in the number of F13ers who actually play the game past the first 30 days. Cao's said that the game is designed for people who play 5 - 7 hours a week, so if you've already reached max level and spend your time in PvP, that's your likely game experience for a while.

This pretty much describes Millennium City in Champions Online, but no one heralded that as a good MMO city.   The problem is that when a city is totally busy with enemies, it sort of stops feeling like a city, its hard to justify that kind of density  of villian and still feel remotely city-like.  Its goofy to see people walking down the streets when 3 floors up in the residential district there are villains on every rooftop mulling around.

Yeah, I guess I'm just shocked that it didn't immediately crash and burn, regardless of the longevity for MMO vets.

So, is anyone playing on a PVP server. Bloodworth, where are you? This game seems right up your ally.

CoX had a better pace for the first 2 weeks it was out.. that's the CoX I was comparing this to above. I would have stuck with it longer, but for whatever reason, Statesman wanted it slowed down to typical MMO combat. Then I thought it sucked. Instead of moving away from that crap, he embraced it. They didn't set any foundation for PVP either, of course. While this game has some great ideas right off the bat, even if you're on a PvE server.

This would still be more fun though even if I didn't PvP and it had a slower pace. The button mashing is right up my alley. And all of the little cosmetic touches make it a better experience. Jim Lee is an MMO vet, just like Statesman - so there's someone who's immersed in both "genres" providing some vision for the overall feel of the game.. except he's Jim Lee. In a comic book geek fight, Jim wins.

That said, I don't exactly care about how it will develop one year from now or whatever.. I'll leave the forecasting for other people. The game is fun enough right now. I'm pretty much in the casual category, like someone mentioned above.. so maybe I'm just a good fit. I was never expecting some end-all-be-all MMO experience to replace WoW. I think that shit sucks anyways. I have two other friends who are casual as well, and this is just simple fun.. like playing any other action game online, except with more room for exploration.

No he's not.

I think you misunderstood me.. I mean he is a vet in the sense of being a longtime fan of MMOs. That he's a guy like any of us with genuine input on the genre (rather than being in it for other reasons). And Jack Emmert was just a writer/artist like he is. I think the closest he came to actual developer experience with RPGs before City of Heroes was in pen and paper. As far as creative comparisons go though, I'm just partial to Jim Lee. I suppose I've been a fan of his art since I was a little kid. I don't think we have the tools to exactly recreate a Jim Lee universe, but it's cool that there is someone like that guiding it. Second, he has a license that's more iconic. Gliding around Gotham is fucking cool.

Jim Lee was an EQ addict; first player on his server to get some kind of armour or kill something big (or something - I'm not watching YouTube videos to find it).

There's a grand irony in using Lee's EQ experience - the multi-hour sessions, the hard grind he played - and use it to help somehow sell DCUO, where you can hit max level with 1 day played.

Actually, that's been genius - the number of people I've seen post, "Jim Lee is involved, he'll make sure things are done properly!" or "Jim Lee did that artwork and Marv Wolfman did the story and Mark Hamill is voicing the Joker, so this is gonna rock!" has been astounding. And makes me worry about our future as a species. But mostly astounding.


As I said: This.

UPDATE: Not meant as a dig at Stray.