f13.net

So....

I watched the first two seasons of this when it was on.  Sort of watched the third season off and on,  before the shitty "Angel has a kid" angle drove me off completely.

Borrowed season 4 and 5 from a friend.

Season 4:

- Whedon has a knack for casting adorably attractive women.  Gwen electricity chick (might no her as Kyra from the Riddick movie) and Layla (who's been around since season 1, but gets alot of screen time here) make a fine distraction.  Fred is cute.
- Almost the whole season is one continuing storyline.  Oooo-kay.  Lots and lots of filler or slow moving episodes because we have to get through 2 episodes before we can advance to the next plotline.
- Both Cordelia and Connor (Angel's amazingly grown son) sucked.  Terribly.
- Really?  Bringing back Angelus seemed like a good fucking plan?  REALLY?

Really, the terrible seesaw between the not good romancy plotlines and the not really good extended apocalypse plotlines were bizarre.  Not to mention that the show runners flipflopped between cloying sweet and amorally ruthless in a way that leads me to believe that they wanted to piss off their viewer base.

Did I mention that Conner was terrible?  FUCKING TERRIBLE.

Charisma Carpenter just wasn't very good except for the fairly entertaining "everyone reverts back to highschool aged memories".

The last three episodes or so of the Jasmine arc was alright.  And it's always nice to see Gina Tores working.

Season 5:

-Better premise.  The team take over Wolfram and Hart,  Connor has his memory erased, ends up with a normal family and isn't a sociopath.  And isn't in the show except for a couple glorified cameos.

-Spike (from Buffy) joins the cast, and is fairly entertaining.  Adam Baldwin jumps in halfway through the season,  and you always have to love Adam Baldwin.

-Werewolf Girl and Eve fill the requisite adorable/cute eye candy.

-More of a focus on small arcs or self-contained episodes,  with character development and some overall plot going on as an aside.

The last 3 or so episodes (series finale) felt a bit rushed,  but not a bad ending.

What? The Angel turns into a puppet episode doesn't get a mention? That was my favourite!

Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia) couldn't do what she was asked to do in season four. She was fine in earlier seasons, then this time they wrote a story in which her character goes a certain way and it turned out she just couldn't do it. (I'm being a bit cryptic to avoid spoilers).

As I recall, seasons three and four are pretty much one long arc, although with a clear break in between. I watched the lot on DvD in one go, and I suspect that's the best way.

Evil Angel in Season Four made for some great stories, particularly the episode when they bring the evil version back. It was good to see Faith in the show too, although she got beat up all the time - I wanted to see her kick someone's ass.

For my money, season two is the best. Darla is a great character - even better when she teams up with Drusilla. I liked the way they told her and Angel's story in the past as well as the present (they'd already done something similar with Angel in Buffy, but not to the same extent).

My favourite character in the whole show is Wesley. The journey he goes through is absolutely brilliant. They show his friendship growing with Gunn - an unlikely pair to become best friends, but they do - and then it falls apart because of the love triangle with Fred, but nobody's to blame. You can sympathise with all of them. And then his "betrayal" of Angel, doing what he thinks is right but making a terrible mistake.

Angel was a great show, although even more inconsistent than Buffy.

Yah, that was pretty good.  Also had Werewolf Girl.


The two things that drove me completely batty:

- Lorne.  Corny lounge singer demon with a power that they had to work around EVERY FUCKING EPISODE?  He really screwed over the series.  I mean,  he was supposed to be psychic guy,  and so they used his power intelligently.  

Then the writers had to work around because every plot had massive amounts of treachery by people he had already check out, so there was always some potion or he had a headache or whatever.

And he was waaaay too campy.

- The True Love thing.  So... Angel is supposed to be love with Buffy.  No wait, Cordelia.  Wait,  Werewolf girl is pretty....  let's get with her!  And still have wierd arguing with Spike over Buffy stuff.

Charisma Carpenter is a funny chick, I think.. But I guess Cordelia was written to be more serious over time.

On the flipside, Wesley was first kind of supposed to be a funny character... but he got much cooler as he got serious.

Lorne's just too much of a dragqueen (and not in a funny Eddie Izzard way). Probably my least favorite character. Spike's my favorite either Buffy or Angel.

Adult Conner was a goddamn travesty.  They couldn't get him off the show fast enough.

They came back strong with season 5 though, which I thought was their best season.  I loved the Illyria/Wesley stuff.

One of my favorite episodes is when Lindsey comes to Spike, and acts like he's another Doyle, says he has visions of people in trouble, etc.., and that Spike needs to be a hero. Everything just sort of becomes Spike's laxidasical version of Angel's original mission.



GIRL
(stands, incredulous)
Thank you! Thank you! That thing was gonna kill me!
SPIKE
Well, what do you expect? Out alone in this neighborhood? I got half a mind to kill you myself, you half-wit.
GIRL
What?!
SPIKE
I mean, honestly, what kind of retard wears heels like that in a dark alley? Take 2 steps, break your bloody ankle.
GIRL
I was just trying to get home.
SPIKE
(pushes her shoulder, ushering her down the alley toward a lit street)
Well, get a cab, you moron.
(calling after her as she walks away)
And on the way, if a stranger offers you candy, don't get in the van!
 
(under his breath)
Stupid cow.
DOYLE
(sitting on a nearby fire escape landing)
Believe me now?
SPIKE
What, your victim vision? Please. Can't throw a bloody stone in this town without hitting some bimbo in trouble.
DOYLE
(walks down the fire escape stairs toward Spike)
Tough guy, huh? Nice work, by the way, takin' out that vamp.
SPIKE
(looking around, unimpressed)
Oh, yeah. Epic battle. My finest hour.
DOYLE
You just saved a girl's life. It's nothing to laugh off. Though you could try being a little nicer next time. You almost made her cry.



If I recall, Lindsey buys him an apartment where Spike just sits around playing an XBox.

I also like the one with the Mexican Wrestler/Mailroom clerk guy.

This! It's worth watching the entire thing just for this episode.

I do think that series 4 was the weakest but season 5 redeemed it for me. As with Buffy however, the romantic plotlines play a large part in it's appeal so if you don't like that kind of thing it's going to grate. I, however, am a giant soppy bastard, so it works for me.

Agree about the last few episodes being unsatisfying. I just don't think Whedon does endings very well - he tries for grand, epic, cataclysmic finales but it just doesn't mesh with the rest of the story because the power of his characters is in how they react to the situations. And when there's no reaction to come (cos it's ending) then you're left feeling that something's missing.

btw johnny, you forgot to mention faith/dushku. easily the hottest chick on either series. and the only one who liked sex, it seems.

Loved the series.  Might have to watch it again soon.
The reason Gina Torres made it into the last part of Season 4 and Adam Baldwin made it into Season 5 is the same reason that Nathan Fillion made it into the last season of Buffy.  Fucking Fox fucked Firefly and they were all out of a job so Whedon gave them another one.

As for Charisma Carpenter - didn't the conversation about her role in season 4 go something like:

Producers: We've got this great idea for Cordelia's story arc this season. It involves lots of running, more action, dangerous stunts and getting more involved with the main storylines.

Carpenter: I'm pregnant.

Producers: We've got this great idea for Cordelia's story arc this season. It involves a lot of sitting down.

So there was a reason she couldn't do what was asked of her. Allegedly she was working right up to the point where she was due to give birth.

What I don't get is that Wheadon still works with Fox although they have fucked him in every project he ever did for him (and Dollhouse is next)

I don't get why Whedon keeps getting work. I would have to assume he keeps working with Fox because they let him throw his shit against the wall. Dollhouse may be the end of that though as it looks like a giant piece of shit - beyond his previous projects.

He keeps getting work because everything in television is relative.  Whether or not you think he's a good writer, at least his characters are somewhat consistent, he has an idea of where he's going with his plots (even if it takes forever to get there) and his dialog, while frequently overly clever, at least isn't dull.  I could give you a laundry list of TV shows that don't even meet those lofty standards.

While some of this is hard to argue with, Lorne was also great at showing how serious the situation was. The episode "A Hole in the World" is a great example of this.


That episode is probably the best episode in any Joss Whedon show.

Oh, and put me in the camp that thinks Wesley is by far my favorite character. Which is ironic since I hated him in Buffy. This moment from the episode after A Hole in the World sums up why I like him so much.


And I have to disagree about the ending not being good. I thought the ending was the perfect sumnation of the show. My highlights:

Lorne only did that because he was a pussy.  :grin:


Spike did the same thing. Except he wasn't a pussy. In his strange way, he was able to point out how screwed things were all of the time. Always more aware than other characters. He was the first one, for example, to point out how fucked up it was for Angel to run Wolfram and Hart.

Lorne was kind of unnecessary (in that respect).

Awesome post Riggs, you just reminded me of how good a lot of Angel was. I feel a re-watching of the entire thing coming on.

The episode was probably the best from Angel, but overall The Body (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_(Buffy_episode)) was the best in my opinion of Whedon's work.

Of all of Whedon's characters, Emma Caulfield's Anya was my favorite and her melt down in the episode was about as spot on as I have seen in TV.

The Body makes me cry, every single time, nothing I can do about it.

However, Once More With Feeling is still my favourite. Simply masterful on so many levels.

Yes. And I also think he got an amazing performance out of Sarah Michelle Gellar in that episode.

Would you believe I forgot about the body. The part with Anya's meltdown is absolutely heart breaking because it sounds like what a child would say.

Favorite bit with Spike was when he showed up early in Angel (Season One, maybe) and was watching Angel from the rooftops. Angel fights off some vampires or demons or something, and saves some woman. They talk down below, and all you can hear is Spike mocking them.

It's great.

I can't resist:

Yes, Lorne had some great moments.  Hole in the World, the episode where he gets his sleep removed, and his "unsavory" actions in the finale are great.

The problem is he's an awful full cast member.

1. Camptastic dialogue.
2. The fucking lounge singing doesn't work on a constant basis.  It's funny once in a while,  but it gets old fast.
3. His read auras/destiny ability means the writers have to seriously work around him every time the plot calls for treachery. 
4. He's dead weight in fights,  and the show already had too much dead weight in fights.  Gunn and Wesley are vastly underpowered in fights,  though they make that up a bit with trickery or guns.  Having Fred and Lorne that you always had to work in somehow?  Problems.

(I mean,  Fred is a great character but let's face facts:  she was lucky if she tipped 100 lbs on the scales.  She could barely lift the plastic props.  Lorne hated violence,  but as a full cast member they had to work him in to everything despite the fact he was mostly useless in brawls)

Lorne worked much better in season 2 as a recurring character that never left his nightclub.  It didn't overuse his gimmick, and also meant that the writers didn't have to work around his powers constantly.


As for the finale:

I don't think that was lounge singing! More like some Gloria Gaynor gay karaoke shit.  :grin:

The Body was great TV.  The bit at the beginning of the episode where Buffy walks in and finds her mother collapsed on the floor is so well done,  and so heart wrenching.
"Mom?"
"Mom?"
<childlike, distraught> "Mommy?"


I liked the whole redemption and humanizing of Anya, as well....  Leave it to Whedon to then crib himself to do the same fucking thing with Spike a couple seasons later and Ilyria in Angel, though.

Fuck's sake stop it, I'm tearing up  :uhrr:

That bit at the beginning was great acting on Sarah Michelle Gellar's part. And it was probably the other part of that episode that really gets me. It's really all around just a great episode. And one I can rarely make myself watch.


Heh. Don't sweat it. You have to be made of stone not to put yourself in Buffy's place in that moment. Hell, I have a very macho friend, the kind that I can't talk politics with because he goes to "libs are just pussies!" too quickly. And he bawled in that episode.

It was sad, but I guess I'm in the minority on that one. Like Star Trek, I mostly just kept tuning in for the funny. Mostly Spike fulfills this task. The others can be funny though.

Not all that big on Buffy for eye candy or anything either. I just like Faith.

RIP Andy Hallett (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7976513.stm)...  Probably the most interesting character from the show.

Yeah, I saw that this morning.  He was only 33.  RIP

Oh wow. I just read this thread for the first time today, and to get to the end like that....

I cant believe Lorne was that young during the show. Angel was just coming into its own when it ends. I had not watched the show until it was over and i could watch it via DVD. Not holding a candle to Buffy but still a good show.

that's too bad. although i disagree with him being interesting. i didn't really like his frequent spouts of breaking-into-gloria-gaynor mode. not to be homophobic, but it was quite gay  :why_so_serious:

I feel the opposite. Buffy can't hold a candle to Angel. But YMMV and obviously does.

Technically, I believe Lorne was female.

No he was a guy, they go to his home dimension and all the people in his village are ashamed of him because he isn't a strong warrior like a man should be.

He is a male but females of his species look the same.