f13.net

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=57909



How strange.

Jesus fucking christ. Why does everything have to be an MMO these days?

Fuck you WoW. Fuck you.

It's not just WoW you can blame it on.  Piracy, "holy shit we can make money beyond the original box," and, "hey we can produce an incomplete product, and patch it later while making money instead of constantly losing it" are also driving factors.

Yes those are factors, but I don't care.

Fuck you WoW.

Actually, I would wager the company just pitched it to EA and offered them some cash and they though "why the fuck not?" That was always my personal plan with the Planescape license and Wizards.

It may be that I haven't played DK for a LONG time, but how the hell do you even go about shoe-horning it into an mmo game?

Might as well make Tetris Online. I want to play the mystical L block.

I'm assuming they are using the very loose definition of the term "MMO", like most people are doing these days. I.e. any online MP game counts as "MM" now. So you have somebody building a dungeon and inviting some online friends to try and get the phat l3wt at the end and voila you have yourself an MMO.

Its infuriating that the worst fucking buzzword-turned-acronym is used in this genre. Thankfully, I can now enjoy that cancer being spread to shit that isn't even really an MMO just because it apparently moves units.

This is SOE's fault, right? I can't remember who to be angry at.

I'll blame Smedley anyway. Fuck 'em.

Was Dungeon Keeper Diablo3-style 3D, or WoW/EQ2 et. al. style 3D?

I always thought that making DK a head to head online affair would be great.

It was what Bullfrog originally designed anyway...

Kind of in-between. It wasn't a fixed camera like Diablo I/II (dunno if III has camera restrictions) but the default view was more of a "top down" RTS-style view than WoW or EQ II, though you could zoom in/rotate and even play in first person mode if you wanted to.

It's not actually that bad an idea, any form of player created content would make a nice change from the usual.

The way I read the article is that some asian-mmo gangsters were going to pitch a new game but wanted to use a known-and-respected IP for some sweet bait-and-switch action.  What will arise will probably look a whole lot like DK but play more like Lineage.  It would be great if they hired Peter Molyneux and it ended up being called Peter Molyneux's Dungeon Keeper Online, after which he would be shot into space with some grrl-gamer eggs.  After meeting Space Jesus, he would smuggle his divinely-fecund cargo to the same Tibetan cave where Garriott is holed up and together they will breed the next echelon of gamers.

It's a strategy MMO for the Chinese market.

You know, like the Heroes of Might and Magic strategy MMO for the Chinese market that they shipped earlier this year (http://ir.netdragon.us/game/yxwd,1.shtml).  (That game was in development for years.)

I take it you are not confident in the "remarkable results overseas" portion of the article... and neither am I.

I recall that this was actually how the game was billed before it was released.  Once it finally hit the stores we found out that they weren't able to provide the multiplayer support, or even the adventurer side of the game that was talked up in the previews.

So, you had random AI heros invade your dungeon that, like most AI, were trivially simple to beat.

I still have Dungeon Keeper 2 installed!

The charm and joy of these titles is not something you can capture by slapping on your standard mmo process.  I want the creators to manage, but it would take so much effort.  I doubt very much what we get (if anything) will remind me of the games.

Why can't they just make DK 3? =(  Sure, it might be terrible, but it has a better chance of success.

ok I am going to bite.

I know Square is adding a similar system to FFXI...
I have yet to fully begin to understand how such a system even makes sense under the context that its not a main system in the game.. Are they adding it just so its possible to make perfect xp camps? *shrugs* Its the most off beat addition to the game yet by a long shot.

Now an MMOG that based purely around the idea.
MMOGs are amusement parks with everything in them not a one shot idea that gets old in one week.
How would they make this work exactly?

Perhaps what they really mean is the dungeon keeper universe is now being turned into a WoW clone?

See: Saga of Ryzom.

But with dungeon keepers humor.

Fixed it for you. There won't be any player created content, because this will not be a dungeon keeper game.

I found the Dungeon Keeper games horribly disappointing. There's so much *potential* in 'build your dungeon to kill the heroes who come to explore it' that they mostly missed out on I think.

You need a new gimmick.

Yeah, well, me and the mmog industry both, what'cha gonna do.

To some extent I agree - the problem always seemed to be that your aim was to make sure nothing interesting happens. That, and the best defence against hero attacks was always building a simple impassable killing zone, you never had an incentive to build interesting defences.

The dungeon keeper vs dungeon keeper thing never seemed that interesting because the interface for attacking with creatures was so meh.

But it still had enough character to make me buy it and play it.

Now assuming this is a MMOG with a considerable number of catasses in the population. Imagine then dungeons that are not created for fun but only to deter you to the maximum extent possible so they can maximize their own reward.

When it comes to building fun content you have to adhere to proper pacing and cater to the players experience. Proper design does not work well in an environment where your goal is to simply kill the player. One cannot reliably have a community building harder and harder dungeons and necessarily consider it a quality experience.

The only way this kind of thing could work on a larger scale is if the idea is to build the highest quality dungeon and you reward the designer for having the most people visiting. However then you have to make sure that the dungeons are created for a challenging and balanced experience and not just handing out free rewards.

Then you also have to decide how much power you give the designers as well. Will I be able to script sequences out and create almost anything I want or will my control be very limited? Either way you go will exasperate different fundamental problems with the system. Building fun content requires both control and finesse. Unless maybe the dungeons are auto-generated. That would be the easy way out hehe...

Sounds like fun to me, although the same is true of most of these games when they are on paper.

Setting people a challenge of designing a dungeon which is both fun enough to get people to come and also nasty enough to kill them could work. You get "dungeon XP" for the players you kill, allowing you to upgrade your dungeon with harder mobs etc (but that's cool because higher level players need somewhere to go).

If you create something so bad that nobody wants to go there, no XP. If you create something that players beat continously, no XP. It might even be a game where XP loss makes sense, eg if they kill your boss (but I'm only talking about "dungeon xp" here).

Everyone gets one dungeon to make, but if it's not working it's easy to change. You also play with an avatar in traditional MMO fashion, heading into other people's dungeons with friends.

Lots of community features where the website lists most popular dungeons, most lethal dungeons etc.

That's how I'd make it anyway.

Go back to the original concept (back in '95) which was Villains building Evil Keeps of Villainy and Heroes trying to do them in?

Huh. You could even do it in a 'Sporeish' manner - publish your Tomb of Horrors and have the players / heroes rate it somehow. Achievement markers for advanced widgets and whatnot.

Same. I tried to play it a year or so after it came out and thought it was crap.

Interesting take on the idea. I am mostly inclined to believe you especially this line.


I went over a bunch of meditative reasons why I feel that way but really it was just a bunch of rambling and assumptions best kept to myself. trust me it was a lot of junk. But who knows how the game will end up being in the end.

That's a lot of words for a game that have released absolutely no details. You sure are doing a lot of assuming.

It could be as simple as dungeon PvP. For example, here's how I'd do it:

You build your dungeon, but to build some of the more advanced structures, you need 'plundered gems' in addition to gold. Plundered gems are on attacking and attacked units from other players. You build your dungeon as normal, and, when you're ready, you check the "Bring it, bitches" box and that puts you and your dungeon in to an appropriate matchmaking rotation. Eventually, it finds a compatible person, joins their world/dungeon map together to yours from a random direction. Then, you tunnel outward until you hit, you fight it out, and one of you "dies" once your dungeon heart is conquered (or retreats if they leave the game).

Plundered gems are then awarded on each side, plus some extra for victory and everyone's kicked back into the single player phase to revise your dungeon for better attack or defense in the future.

The same method of combat can be done for 2v2, FFA, or maybe there could even be a team play mode where you pick one person's dungeon but have two hands to move stuff around and cast spells and such, kind of like that combo mode in starcraft.

He fancies himself as a member of the armchair design intelligentsia. Long, vacuous posts people won't read all of seems to be where he excels. Weirdly, you have now fed him. Something I hadn't expected.

I hadn't actually expected that to be as large of a post as it turned out.
Sometimes I do that.

I actually am a designer for a living however. I tend to use my outside voice more often than I should.
this is mostly a valid criticism.

edit: Question
Is it still considered armchair design intelligentsia when I apply things I talk about to content I make for games?

That might make a good flash game.

No, it's worse.  It then becomes Ivory Tower design as you try to force things to a method or theory instead of applying knowledge gained via practical testing and use.  The same thing happens in a lot of fields.  In mine, for example, you get asshats like Eisenmann and Ghery who handwave away things like 3'wide 12' deep closets, leats and maintainence issues with, "Well these buildings aren't meant to be INHABITED!  You're just another subject of the experience!"

Yeah.

Ahh fuck..
noo... LOL

Ill edit my post and keep this in mind.
Keep in mind I have no intentions of being like you describe lol.. I am really just someone who thinks way too much. I in no way want to preach these things.

Ill try from now on to keep in check when a post is for myself or when its useful for others to read.

I think it is perfectly acceptable for existing devs to talk about how they might approach something.

However, if you wish to flash your dev credentials you really need to show a CV / resume and expect us to laugh loudly when you release a title (or not) that is completely devoid of your well-executed, high-minded design ideals you like to push at other people. If we do it to Raph, we are certainly going to do it to you.

Also, from now on, whenever you post a wall of text (directed to TheCastle, obviously), I or someone else is just going to tell you to "stop masturbating." Because that's all it is. Inward navel-gazing isn't attractive, guy. That shit is for fansites.

Edit: I should add, it's OK in small doses of moderation, specifically when it's directly addressing something that's actually a current event. For example, Mark's total clusterfuck. But even then, walls of text are really almost never OK in a straight forum setting.

I am terribly sorry I am NOT trying to push high minded ideals.
That was not intended, and it is not cool. All I was doing was blabbing out loud to myself about the first things I would consider if someone came to me with that idea.
I do not see myself as gods gift to game design or anything retarded like that.


You might notice that I have been keeping myself in check now
I totally understand. Makes sense even

Whats Raphs credentials?

I don't mind if you guys laugh at my credentials I know where I stand hehe
I doubt its actually appropriate though. I have absolutely no clue what negatives are involved with saying what i have done on an internet forum.

With the kind of insight going on in this forum I kind of assumed nearly everyone here is working in the game industry at least to some extent. *shrugs*

I have no problems following these rules.
Honestly I prefer it if people say whats on their minds and explain why.

If I am being a dick say Hey Castle stop being a dick.
hehe

Raph Koster. He did some stuff, now is doing weird non-gaming stuff.

Weird non-gamey stuff that lets others do weird gamey stuff. ;D

Didn't he like write a book or something. About fun and why you should hate it.

linky (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-acquires-korean-free-to-play-developer)


Didn't see this posted anywhere.

Seriously I assumed nearly everyone in this forum is working on gamey stuff.

I am still working on gamey stuff now.
A game I worked on just was released recently.
I am tempted to get some usefully cynical commentary on that game but I am still slightly afraid of some exec having a fit of rage if the commentary is not good and taking it out on me lol... black magic mumbo jumbo and twisty mustaches!!

Mostly just AAA first person shooters but I have worked on some whacky things before that makes ME laugh let alone you guys haha...
been in the industry about 9 years now...
Personally I don't give a crap anymore. I want my shit to be good so I actually love it when someone can go "Hey man your level sucks and here is why!"
One of the reasons I started posting here actually. Really its the main reason.
I learned a HELL of a lot posting in this forum that I would not have otherwise

anyway /endderail

Why do you hit enter after every sentence? Can you please, please, please, stop doing that?

Sure thing

You don't press enter after every sentence because you like to twiddle children. I'm just gonna go ahead and suggest that you do more lurking than writing for a bit.

That was my pedobear of "sure thing". Look at my other posts since my response.

So, now we're supposed to keep track of how you arbitrarily reassign the meaning of smileys to suit you?

Do you design UI's?

That was dumb of me. hold on let me change the post to what I meant.

(http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/ratman/DerekSmart.gif)

I would play this.  Want to get together and throw up a design doc?

Also, lol ratman_tf.

Wizards as in Ralph Bakshi's Wizards? 
hmm...  I was actually talking with my brother last night about how they should've made that IP an MMO.  Kind of a no-brainer.

p.s. (oops I pressed enter)
As for the design of DK:online, my 2-cents (keep it simple):  make it just like DK1 but just send your mobs to try and break into other people's dungeons.  If they reach the Keep, that dungeon is yours (if you want it).  Ultimately it works into one big resource/land-grab.  Picture Ikariam+DK.  Requires minimal effort to Dev and minimal resources to maintain.

Wizards as in Wizards of the Coast, who owns and has shelved Planescape.

You crazy. You can't pay me enough to work on a game.

I can be paid enough to pretend like I'm working on a game...

That's why in this game you'll do if for FREE by building your own damned dungeon.

Knowing that no one knows the answer to this question, I'll ask anyway.  Do I have to be a Dungeon Keeper, or can I just be the guy that tries to break your stuff?

On player-made content: I think it's tempting to be a too sceptical about this. Games like Spore and The Sims do great for player-made content. It doesn't matter if the bad outweighs the good (and I'm not sure it does). Even if there is a lot of rubbish available for download on those games' websites, people still find it easy to find stuff they like.

The same is true of the interweb in general. If I post crappy videos to YouTube (and I do) that doesn't detract from all the fun stuff on there. The huge number of lousy bloggers doesn't stop people finding blogs they like.

I'm frequently pleasantly surprised by how good a lot of amateur "fan" stuff is out there. A game which really captured that (and wasn't Spore) would be interesting.

If they were smart, both. Make them separate systems, but with some overlap (i.e. doing one will 'reward' you in the other, but not in any way that forces you to use that system if you don't want to).

As it is, they probably don't know.

My response: Second Life.

That just proves that if you let people make penises (peni?) they will. Seriously, YouTube trumps Second Life.

Raph certainly hopes so.

You could always just not build anything and just wander around the map as the "hand of god" slapping other people's creatures and casting lightning upon them.  Actually, if there's a guild element to the game my guess is that a few keepers could team up and maybe one focus on "direct damage" stuff while the other handles the creatures.

A lot of us have. We just don't "hehe" about it.

I am in this thread a lot, for not being in this thread.  :uhrr:

Only because we care.

Hey Raph man!
Its like I already know you but we never met! :why_so_serious:

Sigh.

Here's a meta-game idea.

Online Stalker Online.

You pay people of some status, like minor celebrities (Gary Coleman?  Mark Jacobs?), to post to random internet boards, the first registered stalker to find their post gets a small prize or some points or something, maybe just a question answered?  Maybe bonus points if you can tell where the celeb posted from and what color pants they were wearing at the time?

I never played Dungeon Keeper, but really like the concept.  Is there anyone in this thread who has played both Dungeon Keeper and Evil Genius (which I mostly liked) and could compare the two?

Yes.

They both basically had the same problem.

Efficient play wasn't fun, they both centered around development of a single killing zone, which friendly minions could get past but which would wipe out enemies.

On top of that EG's hero system was incredibly unfun. James Bond and Rambo characters would wipe out your base randomly from time to time and they had no equivalent in fun-destruction for DK players.

EG was a more pure version of DK, the problems DK had were more extreme in EG, but equally the flavour DK had was even stronger in EG.

I'm totally going Hrose-spec for those hi-lewt MJ raids.

I have to warn you though that the HRose spec special endgame power:

"Wall-of-Incoherent-Text"

Which is an upgrade from the standard Wall-Of-Text is a lvl 50 power that can only be unlocked via an elaborate scheme of reoccurring micro-transactions.

It's for the children really.

For some reason "Online Stalker Online" made me imagine Raph in the role that Jimmy Caan played in Misery.  Replace psycho-literary-chic with pyscho-starwars-chick.  For some reason she thinks that he's responsible for "teh twitch!" and the downfall of the craftards (instead of killing off the lead protagonist).  She chains him to a laptop and makes him code.

Then, the hobbling scene. Very disturbing.  Really, Raph, it probably would have been best if you hadn't introduced twitch (giggle!).

Stop talking about me like I'm crazy!  I can read this thread you know. ><

It wasn't Raph who made the game twitch.  He turned around and those bastards screwed up his wonderful idea and crushed my precious pets.  I hates them!  I hates them so very much...

And please, hobbling him would be so violent.  That's not really necessary with some good quality cuffs.  Maybe I would hobble him -- with love. :heart:

/onlinestalker

So you'd just link Raph into a shard of SWG in its JtL version and have him code in your requests from there?

Yeah, they're pretty similar.  Hollow out rooms and train various classes of minion.  No "away missions" or anything in DK, though, which might be the "multiplayer" aspect in this MMO.  EG was a lot more "hands off," too, in that you couldn't really do anything directly, you just designated tasks and whoever was nearby and felt like it would do them.  In DK, you can teleport guys around your base, or cast spells, or possess your minions and fight firsthand.

Big problem I see with something like DK online is that if they let you design your own dungeons, designing a dungeon which is functional is completely different from designing a dungeon which is fun to play through.  You want something which provides, ideally, a constant level of challenge, not a gigantic instant death zergfest at the front door followed by an hour of wandering around big empty rooms trying to find where the hell the loot is.

Ideally, you would want your dungeon to be shaped like a penis, with the choke-point being at the head.  Not where it normally is.

Yep.  With the SWG emulator it'd be like heaven.

Combine this idea with a Spore-like system of building your own minions and you could have a penis-shaped dungeon full of giant, adventurer eating sperm.

This reminds me of an old Starcraft map where one side played as sperm trying to impregnate the other side; the defenders were armed with spermicide, condoms and Mountain Dew.  :drill:

Mountain Dew?

You're not familiar with the common myth (http://www.snopes.com/medical/potables/mountaindew.asp) (especially among young males) that drinking Mountain Dew lowers sperm counts?

The argument against player made dungeons or content is always basically that well, people are idiots and cannot create content that players want to play.  I think Neverwinter Nights provides a huge argument to the contrary in that not only did normal people design very fun environments to play and be apart of, but they dealt with all the same variables that a trained, paid designer would.  Through word of mouth alone people found the fun and the designers of the popular shards were rewarded with basic godhood within their own Universe.  The only true flaw is that the owner of your world could simply quit it one day and leave you homeless but even then there was often someone to pick up the torch and keep it altogether.

*edited for horrible quotation skills.

How about Little Big Planet? There's some frankly awesome user-made content there. It works for three reasons - good building tools, a large userbase and a rating system. Good levels get highly rated, bad ones don't.

I think the problem with something like DK-Online and user creeated content would be getting a large enough base of players to produce enough content that some of it was very good and getting content creation tools that were good enough.

Those same young males who currently wear tight, tight pants in the name of fashion? Nope, hadn't heard about it. Thanks.

It's an old myth.  I think it was Yellow 5 that was the supposed culprit.

Played the shit out of Dungeon Keeper back in the day, played the shit out of Dungeon Keeper 2 as well ... have it installed right now (not really sure why though). Never played Evil Genius though, should I?  Most of the problems of DK have already been listed, but I'd like to add "horrible AI" and "lackluster multiplayer", if we're keeping track. A Dungeon Keeper MMO ... I agree, it will be DK in name only, most likely.

In a similar vein, lately I've been a bit hooked on Dwarf Fortress ... great fun, steep learning curve, a bit clunky ... I hope you like ASCII (though graphic tilesets are available).