f13.net

I know we have some real lawyers here as well as the usual plethora of internet lawyers. What do you all make of this (http://arstechnica.com/journals/law.ars/2008/11/26/lori-drew-verdict-in-no-felonies-but-tos-violations-are-a-federal-crime)?

Batshit insanity. You don't bend criminal law to make it fit a behavior. Ever. It either fits perfectly, or doesn't fit at all.

Agreed, it is insane.


I wish there was something to do about behavior like that though... But I can't see how.

It was considered a misdemeanor.

Eh, not enough. I mean, bullying or deceiving people to the point of agony -- it's a very common occurrence, but there are no real laws that oversee it, that dole it back out accordingly (afaik). Really, it's probably just best left to hitman justice or something.  :why_so_serious:

Doesn't matter, Drew should've walked away completely clean.

Classic case of "bad facts make bad law." The conduct was so egregious that the system basically made shit up in order to craft a punishment.

This precedent will surely never come back to bite them* in the ass.

*us

Surely having a MySpace account should be a federal crime in itself?

How so?  She harassed someone with malicious intent.  The jury disagreed, properly, that it was a felony.  This crime is the absolute definition of a misdemeanor.  She behaved badly and caused harm to another person.  The result was heinous, but not performed by her hands.  But, without her misdemeanor - bad behavior - the larger crime of suicide would not have occurred. 

Now, if you want to argue that the feds were overzealous in their pursuit of justice, that's another story.  But choosing this case as the one to get bothered about is ridiculous.  There are countless better examples where the defendant did not cause the death of another person.  Drew is a bad person and she deserves to be punished; she bears no resemblance to a martyr.  You don't have any protection under the law to harass another person, whether its in person, over the phone, by letter or internet. 

I don't give a rat's ass about the harm she caused to the girl, even if it's "condition without which, not" <=shit sounds odd because should be in latin. If your country had a law that criminalized instigation of suicide, something that, apparently, they don't, Drew would be convicted, and I'd be fine with it.  I'd also be fine with it if she were acused of torture, since here we actually managed to fit psychological torture into the primary preceipt for that crap.
Saying that she's guilty of unauthorized acess when she wasn't even the one who created the account, and when the one that created the account obviously gave her permission to use it, is insanity, period.

You're letting morals cloud your judgement. They're covering the fact that she was convicted for something that she didn't do. That shit is wrong, and is not how sane law operates. Legislate, create an article that criminalizes the conduct, and sent the next fucker that does something similar to jail. If no law currently exists, people should walk.
-

Also, because this thing should go to politics:
So you're saying that gun manufacturers should be held liable for any deaths caused by their product? After all, without their creation, people wouldn't die.

Why do you hate america?  :why_so_serious:

The creation of guns or pie or lemonade is not a bad behavior.

But, yes, if I were talking about objects and not behaviors in a conversation about manufacturing and not law, I might have said something that I did not say here.  I cannot say what I would have had for breakfast if I hadn't toasted a bagel.

If I created a pie laced with strychnine with the sole intention of selling it on rather than giving it to someone, would that be bad? Assume for sake of argument that I don't hide the fact that I've put posion in it.

I have no idea.  But your behavior would most certainly be of the highest order, since baking while handling poisons would require strict discipline.

The woman was scum of the highest order, and richly deserves to see the inside of a prison for her actions.  However, I'm afraid as a rule of giving the government any shred of abusable power, and this opens the door for hideous abuses of justice if it stands.  I'm all for a higher court striking this down.





After this woman's been in a prison long enough for the other inmates to give her some souvenirs of her stay.  I somehow bet that female inmates aren't any kinder towards child-killers than the males are.

Yes that chick and her friends are evil. However, everyone and their opinions forget one thing. The "victim" took her own life. Nobody is at fault for her death. You see, she commited suicide.

I really think the world has gone weak.

The problem is (As I understand it, please correct me if my knowledge is erroneous.) the girl was 13 years old, on medication for her mental problems, and this nearly 50 year old woman was AWARE of this poor little girl's problems and was trying to cause her extreme harm.

The question is how do we punish this evil cunt without stomping over rights, freedoms, and common sense.  If we let mob justice take care of it that's no good either.  Mobs are stupid things who stampede over people to buy cheap television sets.

Shit, I am 34 year old man and the sort of things she did to that poor child if done to me would probably crush me and I am nowhere near the mental wreck the girl was.  I can EASILY see how such things being said to someone of that age and gender could cause them to take their own life even without the history of mental troubles!

Hell, just thinking about what was going through her head is enough to make my eyes mist up a little.

Why should this bitch get to go away scott free (and no matter what bad press she gets now in 6 months nobody will fucking remember it anyhow so its fleeting at best!) when a 13 year old now never gets to have a life?

I must be missing something. I'm confused why they even took the "Terms of Service" angle to this whole thing, or even related it to computer use. The computer was just the tool of communication used by this psycho to harass a child. It's totally deflecting the blame, or deflecting something, using MySpace.com to attract attention to the case maybe. It's all the latest to have legal problems with Internet stuff, so this is all about MySpace!

Yeah, I'm just finding out about this now and I'm quite surprised that the whole Series of Tubes stuff even came into it.

If she'd worn a disguise and done similar face to face what would have happened then ?

Also, the poison pie thing reminds me of the Law and Order I watched recently where some guy distributed Saline Water instead of Flu Vaccine and 9 people died.

He went to jail for all 9 counts consecutively.  Sure, it was a TV program, but that's where I get all my law knowledge !  Sam wouldn't LIE TO ME.

This is good. I like this.  If, through the power of NLP, auto-suggestion and jedi mind-trick I were to go all Hannibal Lecter and persuade you to swallow your own tongue or jump off a building or otherwise deliberately drive you into a state where you wanted to take your own life then I would be entirely innocent.

I've always wondered what it would be like to be a serial killer but never wanted to be caught.  Now I realise that I could prey on the emotionally vulnerable and mentally weak and get them to off themselves and never get indicted.  Splendid.

My problem isn't that she was punished for doing bad, it's that she was punished for the wrong crime. Calling this a misdemeanor HACKING case (because she created a phony account) is erroneous - it essentially sets a precedent that violating a TOS in anyway is a misdemeanor crime as opposed to a breach of private contract. So that means making a gimmick account on f13 could make you a misdemeanor hacker. Having a second account in WoW could make you a hacker.

That's retarded.

Scientology seems to have little problems with it. Perhaps you should look them up.

The reason the TOS thing came into it was because there are no "Bullying" laws that would cover this.  If it had been face-to-face she may have gotten away scott-free without even the TOS indictment.  Recall that the cops can do nothing and your only legal recourse is to get issued a restraining order if all I do is follow you around screaming about how you should off yourself all day.  Even then I can continue to do so from outside the bounds of that order.    If I do this until you off yourself, I win.

Yes, it's a very big loophole in the whole "don't be a shitbag" segment of the law.. partly because you have the legal right (in the US) to be a shitbag.

I absolutely agree.  However, the jury was faced with handing down a lesser charge or agreeing to the incorrect higher charge.  Call it the lesser of two evils.  Actually three - as some have foolishly suggested, they could have let her walk. 

You have to take into account that the American legal system is meant to be broken.  I could list hundreds of bad decisions.  Many of them are later overturned, used as a failed precedent or, one way or another, shown to be bad decisions.  That's how it works.  For God's sake, if one legal decision were written into stone for eternity, blacks would count as two-thirds of a person and have to be educated in separate schools.  Clearly, those were awful legal decisions, and they did not stand the test of time.

I think the jury saw that Drew was guilty as sin, and did what they could with what they had.  I don't blame them at all.  Your precious fake accounts are safe; trust me, this does not signal a Grand Inquisition of internet douche bags.  (I don't mean you, Haemish.  You may be a vicious cunt, but you are not a douche bag.  I say that with the greatest respect.)


And you folks that claim, "suicide isn't a crime!  She did it to herself!"  Suicide is a crime, and Drew was an accessory.  She didn't tie the noose, but she did everything that she could to drive her victim to that end.  When Drew told her, "the world would be a better place without you," she wasn't suggesting an interstellar vacation.

I will have to find my copy of the N.Y. State Penal Code (we are still unpacking from the move) but asa former cop a couple of possibilities jump out at me....

Aggravated Harassment (used an electronic device) in fact 240.30 seems to be a perfect fit and is a misdemeanor. So why even go with the TOS bullshit?
You could also get 240.45 Criminal Nuisance
and Endangering the Welfare of a Child 260.10



And the enchilada they could have reached for...

The problem? They went ahead with a federal indictment rather than letting the state handle it.

Kinda curious what y'all think of that kid who killed himself on his webcam last week? Lots of people egging him on apparently.. Many were supposedly assholes to him in other instances.

Link (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gtO167ywBhMURgOmp4ScpR7rBdvgD94KC5HG0)


+1 for Anonymous  :roll:

As I understood it, most of those people didn't think he was in any real danger, and when it started to look like he was in danger, several of them started calling cops around his area trying to get help to him.  So, very different situation.  Especially given that they didn't seek him out and fuck with him like this woman did; they were just forum members on a board that he was trolling, he came to them.

Thats not restricted to the internet or any other medium. Lots of people taunt would be suicidal jumpers on a ledge to well - jump...

Lots of jerks out there. Don't really know if its against the law to shout, "JUMP!" though. Probably the cops might grab you for, "Disturbing the Peace?"

Way to lower the tone!

Is there an equivalent Godwin's law for mentioning the S people?

His father claimed it was a "cry for help" and he was ignored. If your cry for help goes out to the internet...well, we all know how compassionate and forgiving the internet can be. Suicides are weird things because you're never sure about prevention. Would it have mattered? Could something have been done? Would they keep trying? The answer in many cases of people who say they are going to kill themselves is that they don't. They want to draw attention to the fact that they are having major issues. I've heard several people say they were going to do it.

The only two that ever did never told a soul. One was in found in his car in the garage, the other was a heroine OD.

Goddamnit, I must not be trying hard enough.  :why_so_serious:

Fuck, my mother said that almost every other weekend. Left dirty glasses in the sink? "I'm gonna kill myself and then you'll all see!". Didn't make your bed? Same thing. She even dropped that line once for not feeding the dogs.
She also routinely threatened to kill me in my sleep and poison my food.

Never actually did any of that.

Norman Bates?

No, that actually happened, and she never said it in a humorous way. Quite serious, she was.
Curious about what sort of parental abuse everyone here suffered, now.

Personally, none. My ex-girlfriends however had a regular litany of abuses. One's mother was horribly emotionally abusive. One's father supposedly smacked her around. One had a bad uncle who later ended up murdered, but nobody ever caught the person who did it.