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Title: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: khaine on November 09, 2008, 08:49:57 AM Caught this on the WAR Alliance forums , besides the fact they cannot even get the Realm War page up at all for the EU servers and players there's this nugget that just came out from the EU devs
Originally Posted by Julien Crevits Character transfers will be available, and it is one of our highest priorities at the moment. Our account management system being different from Mythic’s, an adaptation and additional tests are necessary, but they should be available before the year’s end . It's just now getting out , but from the overwhelming reaction of the EU players , even some of the most ardent defenders of the game stuck on dead servers have thrown up their hands in disgust Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 09, 2008, 12:18:08 PM It's GOA, they can't even do a decent webpage, they didn't have account management live for weeks so nobody could setup a recurring sub at game release. This isn't really a big deal, before the end of the year is a positive thing, sure they are going to lose some players due to the population issues but server merges will only have a short term positive effect anyway.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Ratama on November 09, 2008, 01:39:40 PM Quote This isn't really a big deal, before the end of the year is a positive thing ... Was that supposed to be green?And this isn't a nail in the coffin; this is graffiti on the tombstone. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Zzulo on November 09, 2008, 05:54:47 PM so glad I bought the american version
god damn why does GoA still exist Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 10, 2008, 12:58:59 AM Quote This isn't really a big deal, before the end of the year is a positive thing ... Was that supposed to be green?And this isn't a nail in the coffin; this is graffiti on the tombstone. Dry your eyes. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: GoodIdea on November 10, 2008, 02:18:40 PM EU can't do server transfers? That sucks. Server transfers have been very good for my server, the sudden infusion of players that actually want to play the game instead of whine has actually been great. Every night there is open rvr now.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 10, 2008, 03:47:28 PM Gee.
I guess all those European players who were delighted that GOA got the contract, and who congratulated Mythic on an excellent decision with NO FORSEEABLE DOWNSIDE, and who have enjoyed fantastic service right through beta and launch will be really surprised by this. OH WAIT. Fake edit, because we don't bring this up often enough given how retarded it is: nobody could setup a recurring sub at game release. I mean... fuck. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Le0 on November 12, 2008, 01:48:16 AM Gee. I guess all those European players who were delighted that GOA got the contract, and who congratulated Mythic on an excellent decision with NO FORSEEABLE DOWNSIDE, and who have enjoyed fantastic service right through beta and launch will be really surprised by this. OH WAIT. Fake edit, because we don't bring this up often enough given how retarded it is: nobody could setup a recurring sub at game release. I mean... fuck. Don't know if you are playing the same game as me but I never saw anyone say they are deligthed to see GOA get the contract. The closest I've read to that was people, giving another chance to GOA after their DAOC-FAIL fest. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Fordel on November 12, 2008, 01:57:55 AM :oh_i_see:
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Sophismata on November 12, 2008, 04:48:33 AM To be completely fair, it can be hard to convey sarcasm with text.
Of course, to be even more fair, common sense would have been all it took for that one. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Rondaror on November 13, 2008, 09:03:03 AM Post from MJ on WHA May 2007........
Folks, Our position on this question remains the same as it has ever been: 1) French Telecom (GOA) is our partner in Europe. Over the years they have been a good and true partner but, like Mythic, one that has made its share of mistakes. They are committed to WAR to an even greater degree than with DAoC due to their faith in the game and their long experience with Mythic. They have agreed to maintain a level of quality, in all aspects of their end of our partnership that meets or exceeds that of Mythic. We have no doubt, based on what we have seen so far, that they intend to honor and exceed that commitment. Like any commitment, if they fail to live up to our expectations or we fail to live up to our promises, I expect that adjustments will be made. The nice thing about being a game slated for 2008, as opposed to 2001, is that all sides recognize the true potential of WAR and of the size MMORPG market...... ..... In the end what's most important to Mythic is that GOA does a great job with hosting and managing WAR's European community. Prior to WoW's launch, for many years that they have been our partners the European community, DAoC was the #1 subscription-based MMORPG in Europe. They helped establish a large community and have, like Mythic, learned a lot over those years. These lessons we believe will allow them to continue to be a great partner for us. As I've said, their level of commitment to WAR is fabulous and I truly do expect great things from them over the next decade or so. Mark __________ Great job GOA...as usual...... Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Sophismata on November 13, 2008, 03:12:36 PM He likes the word 'fabulous', doesn't he?
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 13, 2008, 03:13:43 PM Who doesn't?
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: rk47 on November 15, 2008, 03:09:16 AM I just he stop using the word 'Folks,'
it sounds awkward. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: schild on November 15, 2008, 03:11:11 AM I'd prefer he use "My Countrymen."
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 15, 2008, 12:54:00 PM nobody could setup a recurring sub at game release. I mean... fuck. They fixed that yesterday, if we assume Europe had roughly 400,000 subscribers, with Mark Jacobs saying subscription update was about 75%. Then we get at least 100,000 people who intended to cancel their subscription in Europe, the only way of doing that was checking your subscription billing was set to the manual opt in each month option. GOA has now enabled recurring subscription (apparently as the default option) a few days before the next billing cycle. Everyone who thought they had cancelled their subscription in Europe should check they are not now set to unlimited recurring billing, I know I was. There's no way I can find to delete or change your credit card details in the account pages either. Just taking next month as an example, the total in pure profit from this change for GOA/Mythic is very roughly (depending on how many credit cards they had registered and how many accounts they did this on) $1,500,000. There's still no way of getting a cancel confirmation, they changed my account from manual billing to recurring yesterday and sent me an email that wasn't crystal clear. I don't often check that email account but now I'll be checking my WAR account daily to see if they turn my subscription back on again, in the meantime I've requested an email confirming my intention to cancel. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 15, 2008, 02:20:32 PM Pretty slick. It'll boost the subscription numbers for another month while they try to finagle investors.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 15, 2008, 02:43:00 PM Oh and one more thing, yesterday is also the day they decided to lock the GOA update thread (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88876) on warhammer alliance.
I was going to query GOA in public on yesterday's subscription billing changes on the only thread they were consistently monitoring. Looks like purely by some strange coincidence that option is no longer available. Quote R.I.P This post is no longer updated. I hope many of you have found the information in this post useful. I've learned lots from maintaining it but right now I don't think there is a need for a general thread such as this. Instead, I'll focus on being more present on a greater variety of forums together with Nic. That said, maintaining and updating a post like this is an effective means of sharing certain types of information and should the need arise, we'll create new but probably more focused information posts. Last edited by Magnus_GOA; Yesterday at 06:20 PM. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Trippy on November 15, 2008, 04:48:16 PM Just what EA needs -- another class action lawsuit :awesome_for_real:
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 16, 2008, 12:35:40 PM Andy from Mythic replied to a vn thread saying the issue had been forwarded to GOA.
GOA response (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2678685#post2678685) Quote from: Magnus_GOA Good day! Hope you're all having a good weekend! I'll address three of the issues brought up here. Subscription issue The current issue with subscriptions is as follows; players who had cancelled their accounts or who had not previously signed up for automatic subscription have had their accounts signed up for automatic renewal without their consent. This is obviously a mistake, and a serious one at that which we are investigating with urgency. I don't know how many are affected by this and I don't know if anyone has actually been charged erroneously but I hope to return with a more substantiated update on this tomorrow. For now, we offer our sincere apologies to anyone who affected by this and further advice players to log in with their account on war-europe (http://"http://www.war-europe.com/") and make sure it's set up correctly. Server stability There's recently been incidents where zones have crashed, resulting in broken or reset campaigns. This is naturally disheartening to those who fought to advance the campaign on their server and we're doing what we can to help out. Currently, this means that we can reset broken campaigns which from the perspective of players involved in these sieges understandably isn't enough. We're sending feedback to Mythic on these issues and we're working together to prevent crashes like these to occur in the first place, as well as to improve our responses to them. However, in all fairness, our servers are performing pretty well overall; there are few crashes and when they occur they're resolved swiftly. It's in those rare cases where a crash strike in an untimely way and they affect the status of a campaign on a server which we need to meet more appropriate. We're determined to get there, we're working more and more like a unit and with the assistance and additional tools from Mythic, we'll get there. Character transfers European character transfers are on the way and will be implemented in the middle of next week. The receiving servers will be given a universal 20% exp and renown bonus for some time to help newcomers feel more welcome and we're hoping to see the RvR lakes sprawling with life after these transfers. Again, apologies to those who had the status of their subscription changed erroneously; we’re on it and we’ll make it right. Cheers, Magnus Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 18, 2008, 12:32:23 PM in the meantime I've requested an email confirming my intention to cancel. Quote Dear Customer, Thank you for contacting us in relation to your query. I can confirm that your account will no longer be billed after your current subscription period expires on 25/11/08.The account itself stays on our systems for a period of 6 months to allow our players the oppertunity to resume playing in the future without loosing their saved progress. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions or queries. Regards, ----------------------------------------------- Warhammer Online European Billing Support Heh. They are going to delete accounts after 6 months? Normally I'd think it's a bluff, but GOA. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Driakos on November 18, 2008, 03:43:44 PM Loosing. :ye_gods: Oppertunity. :ye_gods:
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: palmer_eldritch on November 18, 2008, 04:41:53 PM in the meantime I've requested an email confirming my intention to cancel. Quote Dear Customer, Thank you for contacting us in relation to your query. I can confirm that your account will no longer be billed after your current subscription period expires on 25/11/08.The account itself stays on our systems for a period of 6 months to allow our players the oppertunity to resume playing in the future without loosing their saved progress. Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions or queries. Regards, ----------------------------------------------- Warhammer Online European Billing Support Heh. They are going to delete accounts after 6 months? Normally I'd think it's a bluff, but GOA. UO, WoW, Eve, EQ, EQ2 - five games I've gone back to after a break of more than six months and given them a few months more of my cash. Wouldn't have considered it if they'd deleted my characters. Actually, if they delete the *account*, does that mean you can't come back at all, unless you buy a new box? Idiots. Incidentally, I was playing today and enjoyed myself a lot doing scenarios and defending a keep. I can easily see myself getting bored and quitting, and deciding to fire it back up one day for some capture the flag fun. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Rondaror on November 19, 2008, 06:18:12 AM I remember that there was a similar statement in DAoC as well (could have been 12 months though). But they never deleted any accounts/characters. I returend to DAoC 2 years after my cancellation and all chars were still there.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 19, 2008, 11:21:22 AM Not just daoc, every game everywhere uses that exact message, though usually in smaller print.
I'm all on board with the GOA hate, but you're trying too hard. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 19, 2008, 11:54:09 AM Quote from: Magnus_GOA Subscription issue The current issue with subscriptions is as follows; players who had cancelled their accounts or who had not previously signed up for automatic subscription have had their accounts signed up for automatic renewal without their consent. This is obviously a mistake, and a serious one at that which we are investigating with urgency. I don't know how many are affected by this and I don't know if anyone has actually been charged erroneously but I hope to return with a more substantiated update on this tomorrow. For now, we offer our sincere apologies to anyone who affected by this and further advice players to log in with their account on war-europe (http://"http://www.war-europe.com/") and make sure it's set up correctly. Remember that? Absolute silence on the issue since. I'm thinking either 1. Magnus knew it wasn't a mistake and just replied to kill the story Or 2. Magnus gets into the office and someone says "We don't setup recurring credit card billing for 100,000 people by mistake you idiot, now shut up". Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 19, 2008, 11:59:02 AM Quote from: Magnus_GOA Subscription issue The current issue with subscriptions is as follows; players who had cancelled their accounts or who had not previously signed up for automatic subscription have had their accounts signed up for automatic renewal without their consent. This is obviously a Fixed for GOA. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 20, 2008, 01:16:06 PM Incoming! (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2730538#post2730538)
Quote from: takkouri Quote from: Magnus_GOA Good day! Hope you're all having a good weekend! I'll address three of the issues brought up here. Subscription issue The current issue with subscriptions is as follows; players who had cancelled their accounts or who had not previously signed up for automatic subscription have had their accounts signed up for automatic renewal without their consent. This is obviously a mistake, and a serious one at that which we are investigating with urgency. I don't know how many are affected by this and I don't know if anyone has actually been charged erroneously but I hope to return with a more substantiated update on this tomorrow. For now, we offer our sincere apologies to anyone who affected by this and further advice players to log in with their account on war-europe and make sure it's set up correctly. If this is a mistake why Have I had 2 reply emails from GOA refusing a refund? The 1st one looked like this, Dear Customer, Thank you for contacting us in relation to your issue. The subscription automatic renewal function was made active on all accounts on the 14th of November on which date an e-mail was sent to you informing you of this action. This action was taken to improve our subscription service as you will not have to renew your subscription period manually. You will now be able to avoid disruption to your game access between subscription periods. While we apologise there may be some confusion around the implementation of this policy this was a necessary action to improve our service to you. This policy can be found in the 2nd article of our General terms of Subscription which has been included since the release of WAR which states: Section 2 “For payment through the banking system, your subscription will be renewed automatically starting on the anniversary date of your subscription period for durations identical to the subscription duration that you chose.” Additional information can be also read here: http://www.war-europe.com/#/news/?id_news=fr249&lang=en Also we are unfortunately unable to process your refund request as your subscription period has already started. Section 6 “Each subscription period that has begun will be billed and non-refundable, whether in full or in part. Similarly, failure to use your subscription during a subscription period does not give you the right to any refund.” In addition to this, the e-mail sent to you informing you of the automatic renewal update was sent in order to give you adequate time in order to cancel your subscription if necessary. In order to cancel your next automatic renewal please log into your account at www.war-europe.com And the 2nd like this, Dear Customer, As per our previous mail we are unable to offer any refunds. After our investigation we are also able to confirm that all our customers with active accounts on 14th of November were informed about this change through our mailing system. Kind Regards, 2nd one (http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109504241/p1) Quote from: Aspar This is absolutely outrageous! I have been charged 13 euros from my credit card for a next month subscription, despite the fact that i have ON PURPOSE canceled my account and checked several times that automatic subscription is not activated. I am from europe and since the **** GOA their don't have official forum i came to write here. I can't belive a serious company can have so buggy software. How can i trust them to operate with my CC data at all when they can't ******** do the right thing with their charge form. Haven't logged in the game for a week, didn't wat to resubscribe and now they just charged my without me wanting that. If this is a problem with GOA - Mythic - i don't care fix it, talk to them, do whatever you want, this is unacceptable, you have to refund me. And that directly pu the last nail on it, i planned on checking the game back in couple of months, but now i do not wanna even hear about Mythic, GOA, EA or any of this ****. If i have to i will go to the bank and tell them to block any attempts from the ****** from GOA to charge my CC. I played many MMORPGS but never ever had such a profanic problem with any of them. Edit. Now getting this on the 2nd link, looks like vn pulled it instead of locking as normal. You do not have permission to access the page http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109504241/p1 Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Hindenburg on November 20, 2008, 01:20:36 PM I'd understand if a company did something like that in the United States, where they have horrible consumer rights, but in Europe? :uhrr: That mail they sent will do nothing for their protection and they damn well know it.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Sophismata on November 20, 2008, 04:06:09 PM Wow.
Class Action? Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Bismallah on November 20, 2008, 04:07:48 PM Yeah, that whole thing had baaaad written all over it when Arthur first posted here about his re-sub when he suspended the account. I knew it was gonna get messy.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: UnSub on November 20, 2008, 08:04:22 PM Wow. Class Action? It could be that every different country that has a consumer protection / credit card protection in Europe could be knocking on GOA's door if enough people complain. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 20, 2008, 09:24:21 PM If enough complain? This wouldn't fly even in the US.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Just Testing on November 21, 2008, 01:12:38 AM Certainly in the UK, there does not seem to be protection against this type of business practice.
GOA is not alone in this kind of conduct. Microsoft is possibly the easiest example to point to - easy to sign up to online services, but impossible to cancel without making a phone call to the United States. (See One Care (http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-US/3/subscribers/default.htm#)) as an example of this type of practice. Anyone paying by credit or debit card seems to have little option except to dispute the payment with their card provider, put up with the inconvenience of having no plastic for 5-8 working days, fill in a dispute form, and sucking their thumb for a couple of weeks while the request works its way through the system. For 15 euros. I think it is likely many will sit on their hands for a few weeks, accept the loss as being better than the hassle of reclaim. Good short term profit for GOA - paying customers that don't use the service. However, it takes a special kind of muppet not to understand that this will affect the games longevity and profitability. The forum hate is not overdone in this instance. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 21, 2008, 02:02:46 AM Linky (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/211869/page/5)
Quote from: nicols More email exchanges with GOA on my side... ----- Dear Customer, After reading through the forum thread we wish to advise that there is no error on your account. As previously stated in our mails and highlighted in the News Section from 17th of November on war-europe.com, switching on automatic renewal for all accounts active on the 14th of November was intentional and we proceeded according to our stated policy. Please keep an eye on the News Section and FAQ for any further updates about Warhammer Online features. ------ So I guess Magnus from GOA was 'speaking out of line when he said' Quote this is a confirmed issue and it's been escalated to the teams involved who will investigate and deal with this urgently. For now, if you've cancelled your account subscription please log in and make sure it's the case. If it's been reactivated without your consent, do cancel it again. More information will be available on this tomorrow. Apologies for anyone who's affected by this. -Magnus http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2678445#post2678445 ---------------------- By the way, theres a whole thread on this over at Alliance... basically, people have to take it up with their CC company or bank http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194660 Scott Quote from: Hazmal My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game. Never got an email about their billing changes. Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it. I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info. They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game. I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title. I can't comment on the other situation. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Fordel on November 21, 2008, 03:02:25 AM I'm not sure they make a :awesome_for_real: big enough for that.
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Trippy on November 21, 2008, 05:08:19 AM Quote from: Hazmal My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game. Never got an email about their billing changes. Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it. I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info. They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game. I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title. I can't comment on the other situation. Woohoo more fraud! Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: IainC on November 21, 2008, 05:56:31 AM Quote from: Hazmal My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game. Never got an email about their billing changes. Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it. I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info. They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game. I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title. I can't comment on the other situation. Woohoo more fraud! Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 21, 2008, 06:45:07 AM You have two accounts departments? One has access to DAoC only and one that has access to WAR only? That's the only way I see it can't have happened, even then absolutely nobody has access to both databases and therefore couldn't have copied the cc details across?
The guy didn't even comment on GOA enabling billing for everyone who cancelled, no wait, "suspended" their accounts (considering there's no cancel option), so if he's lying, he's not being obvious about it. I'm not sure it's a good idea to respond here about this Iain, I don't know what your position is at GOA but this could get nasty fast if a major news outlet picks up on it. I'm only bumping the thread with new quotes while it interests me, I'll get bored eventually, don't bill me again please. :awesome_for_real: Edit to add, there's a package deal for DAoC & WAR on GOA's website. I can subscribe to the package deal while logged in on my WAR account, so really, no connection between the two databases? Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: tolakram on November 21, 2008, 06:48:56 AM Wait a second.
People on message boards can tell lies? Can this be true? Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: IainC on November 21, 2008, 07:07:22 AM I'm not sure it's a good idea to respond here about this Iain, I don't know what your position is at GOA but this could get nasty fast if a major news outlet picks up on it. I'm only bumping the thread with new quotes while it interests me, I'll get bored eventually, don't bill me again please. :awesome_for_real: Edit to add, there's a package deal for DAoC & WAR on GOA's website. I can subscribe to the package deal while logged in on my WAR account, so really, no connection between the two databases? I originally had an explanation of why it cannot happen but I edited it out because I shouldn't be talking about that sort of thing but I've bolded an important part of your post as a partial explanation. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: khaine on November 21, 2008, 07:10:02 AM I'd have to say it's hard to believe either way for sure
Since you have the official GOA rep on WHA saying it was a mistake and should never have happened , while at the same time GOA sending emails saying it official and not a mistake That kind of miscommunication would lead one to believe there's a lot that even people inside GOA aren't sure about Either way this is a fiasco Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 21, 2008, 07:20:55 AM Edit, Ok I'm sorta convinced the DAoC guy was mistaken now, so I'm editing all this out, I'm just leaving a single sentence intact below.
I don't know why I'd even consider it upon reflection, hey it's not like you guys would ever want to bill anyone for not playing would you? Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 21, 2008, 09:11:38 AM Certainly in the UK, there does not seem to be protection against this type of business practice. The problem isn't so much the difficulty of cancelling, as the fact people had cancelled and then the only notification was an email saying their account had been re-upped. Sending an e-mail for notification is not going to be sufficient in most territories. The people did not consent to the charge. Absence of consent does not equal consent.GOA is not alone in this kind of conduct. Microsoft is possibly the easiest example to point to - easy to sign up to online services, but impossible to cancel without making a phone call to the United States. (See One Care (http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-US/3/subscribers/default.htm#)) as an example of this type of practice. Any competant lawyer will have a field day with this. Even if it can be upheld legally, it's probably a stupid enough decision to cost them a nice percentage of people who won't tolerate what they perceive as fraudulent tactics. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: acelerion on November 21, 2008, 11:21:37 AM Quote from: Hazmal My gripe with this was the fact that I never entered my billing info for this game. Never got an email about their billing changes. Didn't intend on playing past the 1 free month so never thought twice about it. I did however, play DAOC which had my billing info. They used my billing info from an older subscription to charge me for this game. I found that pretty underhanded, I had canceled DAOC and never thought they would take that old information and use it to bill me for a completely different title. I can't comment on the other situation. Woohoo more fraud! Mythic did this exact thing to me (of course i play from us). Had a daoc account that I canceled a while back. Bought war and played for free month at which point I was automatically re-uped on the card I used for daoc but had never entered for anything warhammer. This is obviously possible since they merged account management for daoc/war into one system and apparently still had my cc info on file. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Just Testing on November 21, 2008, 11:44:49 AM The problem isn't so much the difficulty of cancelling, as the fact people had cancelled and then the only notification was an email saying their account had been re-upped. Sending an e-mail for notification is not going to be sufficient in most territories. The people did not consent to the charge. Absence of consent does not equal consent. Any competant lawyer will have a field day with this. Even if it can be upheld legally, it's probably a stupid enough decision to cost them a nice percentage of people who won't tolerate what they perceive as fraudulent tactics. I think that may be part of the problem Lantyssa. GOA have never offered an option to cancel, not even a phone number. What they did do was allow users to set up a nonrecurring account. And then have set it for automatic renewal once set up. This is the same practice MS use for one-care. GOA to their credit, did send an email, from a unique no-reply address. I found it in my spam folder. Buried under 342 other interesting offers, information notices, and heartfelt requests for help in transferring bank funds. MS don't issue an email, and the small text is buried in the installation agreement, that we all read so avidly. In Europe, the distance selling regulations only apply to financial products and services. Country specific laws also apply, but the service is rendered from France. Individual consumer rights don't seem very in depth there, from the little I've been able to find out. WAR has been an expensive experience. It's a pity there no way to punish the decision makers in GOA without impacting on the peons first. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 21, 2008, 02:44:55 PM Charging a credit card without permission is illegal everywhere. Even in Europe.
Legal arrangements like this are usually much simpler than people imagine. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 21, 2008, 03:37:55 PM I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think anyone of any importance in the UK will give a shit about a £10 credit card charge. The fall out from this will be dished out by the players not the courts. GOA believe they are covered by the vague email, the Eula and the lack of a cancel button, legally they might even be right.
I don't think Mythic is in any position to kick up a real fuss about it (maybe some soothing noises), relations with GOA were strained before, but whatever GOA's many many faults, they can't be blamed for the game failing everywhere. Mythic will be benefiting from increased paper subscriber numbers, plus a cut of the income so I don't think we'll see Mark Jacobs posting here again, at least not until he's plugging his WAR expansion. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: UnSub on November 21, 2008, 11:55:01 PM How badly is GOA hurting to pull a stunt like this?
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Sophismata on November 22, 2008, 01:19:12 AM People on message boards can tell lies? Can this be true? If you read it on the internet, it must be true. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: eldaec on November 22, 2008, 03:30:33 AM I don't know about the rest of Europe, but I don't think anyone of any importance in the UK will give a shit about a £10 credit card charge. Really depends how much fuss the players choose to make, there is a point where VISA have to grumble about legalities, and then GOA would have to run scared like a little girl. But these are GOA customers we are talking about, hardly a group likely to be very discerning when it come to customer service. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 22, 2008, 11:09:10 AM But these are GOA customers we are talking about, hardly a group likely to be very discerning when it come to customer service. You're assuming they all played DAoC. They might very well have been new to the horrors of GOA with WAR.I was going to call them former GOA customers, but relized they're at best unwitting customers now. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Arthur_Parker on November 23, 2008, 04:23:13 AM Linky (http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109527188/p1/?9)
Quote I'd like to warn each one of you that has his or her credit card set to automatic renewal to CANCEL IT RIGHT AWAY if you do not want to be charged twice in 3 days. Long story short, i just purchased play time 3 days ago and this morning i get announcement from my bank and GOA that I've been charged for the same amount, yet again.There is absolutely no excuse to what happened and i hope someone in charge is gonna read this. Here's the screenie of how it looks like. http://i33.tinypic.com/w7c2z8.jpg Now, I've contacted them asap, but knowing GOA... The bottom line the money is gone down the drain , and if you don't want to have yourself in this situation, cancel the automatic renewal asap. Must be a faked screenshot. Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 23, 2008, 08:56:20 AM Does that count as one or two subscriptions when it comes to touting numbers?
Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: UnSub on November 23, 2008, 06:00:14 PM Does that count as one or two subscriptions when it comes to touting numbers? You don't need to know that; just know that WAR is doing awesomely well at retaining players. :grin: Title: Re: EU WAR - nail in the coffin ? Post by: Lantyssa on November 23, 2008, 07:32:54 PM "You're in our
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