f13.net

... and they will hang themselves.

I was going through a bunch of info about WAR and ran into quotes from Jacobs time and time again that made me wonder if Mythic is playing a completely different build to the one they launched.

Quotes like this: (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/09/02/mythic-vp-on-hellgate-and-age-of-conan/)


Remember, Jacobs never insults other MMOs, he just slaps them around with backhanded compliments and observations.


WAR and AoC has shown the MMO industry that players are completely likely to leave WoW to try something else. Then they go back to WoW because that is where they have fun. (Personally, I'm back playing CoH/V - it is less grindy than WAR and I don't have to run around hills because I can jump over them).

And from here: (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/09/18/mythic-war-vs-wow/)


O RLY? (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=15076.0)


Of all these things, the ToK is the only one that works well (although some of the unlocks are impossibly hard for anyone less than OCD sufferers - kill 5000 players as a chicken? (http://www.theburningblade.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27)). PQs are a great idea, but the implementation sucks. Open grouping is a great idea, but just exacerbates the empty server feel when no open groups exist. Crafting is a joke. PvE isn't keeping players hooked. PvP / RvR, which was meant to be the main focus of WAR, has turned out to be a pretty empty promise. Scenarios work for all the reasons RvR was meant to, minus any sense of permanence.

Finally, this one: (http://www.massively.com/2008/09/16/jacobs-warhammer-launch-interview-pt-2/)


The 'few' people is a joke, but I can't imagine a player being able to lvl up solely by doing RvR. And what exactly were the lessons learned from ToA? I'd love to know.

You left out his NDA quote which by his own criteria meant the NDA not dropping on the end game until right before release meant "big trouble" for the end game (which prophetically turned out to be true):

Also you are being kind regarding his AoC comments. You left out this part:
Gotta love his "I don't think it sucks but if people go back to WoW they think it sucks" comment.

So he felt he had to rip into AoC when Blizzard stated that people were returning to WoW from AoC but then got all hot and bothered when Blizzard said the same thing about WAR, even though WAR has the exact same problems he criticized AoC for (released too early, not good enough to keep players from going back to WoW).

heheh, it aint funny no more. it's just...sad. I feel.

On the NDA, from what I've heard from elder beta testers (if its true) they were under NDA until a few weeks into release I think.
(I wasn't in it so I cannot verify, is there truth to this?)

I guess even on his own scales the game fails, since WAR would be traveling into negative territories if its true.   :headscratch:

Players aren't talking nice about Warhammer anymore/ (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=65). Not there, not the vault, not mmorpg.com, and not the various blogs. This game is following a similar negative path that AOC followed. AOC got bashed for being buggy and incomplete. Warhammer is being bashed for being boring, bland, bad pve, bad itemization, and its core feature (RVR) being a joke.

Big problems, and continues to show that you've got to listen to your players or make big fixes fast. A lot of these problems were mentioned in beta, but were swiftly locked/crushed by mythic mods. So I guess they get what's coming to them since they didn't listen in the first place.

There are many F13 folks who thought the NDA was no big deal, and even flamed others for bring it up. My point being that a lot of long-time posters who should have known better also drank the Kool-Aide.


Some examples:

Riggswolfe “The Elder NDA is no cause for alarm”

 http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513163#msg513163

Amiable:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513187#msg513187

Draegan

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513317#msg513317

EWSpider (who felt people whining about the NDA were mentally Handicapped)

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14370.msg513716#msg513716



And these are just from one thread

WoW has already copied the ToK and if any game can make PQs work it's WoW just through sheer amount of players.

MJ seems to think he's the savior of the MMO industry. Has the thought the industry doesn't NEED one ever crossed his mind?

He's Brad McQuaid.  The industry has changed so much that time has passed him by.  He's still making games designed around grind.

There wasn't anything protected by the NDA that would have exposed the problems WAR is currently having.  The only things it prevents us from talking about are specifics with some of the high level dungeons, city invasion PQs, and the King encounters.  That's it.  The NDA has nothing to do with the current problems.  People have already explained how issues with oRvR came about and stuff like the high level gear sets weren't even in the beta that I'm aware of.

Trippy - I started down that path, looked at the length of the post and scrubbed some.

The comment about early server consolidation is mentioned in the relevant thread, but I just keep getting left with the same issue:

How did Mythic not see a good number of these things coming, then talk up the game anyway in a way that significantly differed to how the game was actually designed?

I don't have any issue with Mythic not seeing things coming, designing an RvR game is damn hard.

My issue is reaction and reaction time.  I'm being selfish here, I need more people to make the game fun and I can see the reasons people will leave.  Had a blast online last night, 2 hour skirmish in Tier 2 Troll Country.  I made, maybe, 2 bubbles (rectangle, thingy) of XP and maxed out my renown per my level early.

I'm sure they have this in the logs, I'm sure that someone competent could look at that and say 'Hey Bob, without players feeling like they progressed while having fun we might have an issue here'.   

Patch 1.1 might be the answer, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe it.   Why not?

I guess instead of opiates and posting how he cannot go to the mass company firing because he would cry , MJ would be walking in that day with the almost empty bottle of JW Red , screaming how everyone should have listened to him , it's the players fault .....

Could be as much comedy gold as the Vanguard meltdown was

I'm not sure how the elder NDA has anything to do with the problems the game is currently having.  The current issues are a result of changes made after the Beta (nerfing XP gains) and things that weren't even released in the Beta (absurd gear grinds).  While I concede I was very wrong about the direction this game is taking, it had nothing to do with the NDA.

Agreed, there was really nothing in the elder tests that have anything to do with the current problems in the game.  The vast majority of elder testing material hasn't even been accomplished in the game yet, hard to see how it could have any relevance on the current state of the game. 

Most of the complaints of the game were raised during closed and even in guild beta, though most of the guild beta "testers" were just mouth breathers looking for a free game to play.  The xp nerf a week or so before release really hurt, but at the time nobody cared because they weren't necessarily trying to level at that time. There was no use trying to power level when your chars got wiped nearly on a weekly basis and you had all  your gear given to you via templates.

I have to say I am really shocked at how bad the itemization is currently in retail.  We raised hell about it in beta and it was always met with "there will be a huge pass on itemization before retail".  Tell that to the blackguard gear I got in gunbad last night, and the weapon skill on caster and willpower on ranged dps.  The only change I can see they made to gear itemization was to get rid of the actual useful renown gear pieces.

It's very disappointing, mainly because the dev team was so transparent and agile during closed beta.  They always reacted very quickly to any problems during the beta, right up to the point when guild beta started and then it dried up.  Most of us figured it was because they were trying to clean up before release but now I'm not sure.

Mythic made a ton of good progress before release and it looked like they were working in the right direction.  I don't think anyone banked on them going retarded at release.  There have been patches that fix stuff, but some major issues have yet to be properly addressed.  You stack up the annoyances and MMO players get frustrated.  Frustrated players get angry and quit.  Throwing frustrated players into a wall of grind (T3/T4) is a great way to lose your player base.

And the grind isn't even fun. Somehow, in some strange way, the grind in DAoC seemed more enjoyable. It was probably because you knew once you got to 50 the end game RvR was pretty a lot of fun most of the time.

I think some of the smaller issues could have been fixed before release and should have been seen.

But I think a lot of the games problems are systemic in nature and not easily fixed---they may have seen issues with how spread out everyone was and how large the world was, but at that point there wasn't much they could do to change it.

man, having an NDA was not somekind of sleazy attempt to hide somekind of horrible state of the game

The game was super fun in the beta, mostly because RVR was the popular thing to do, (due to how they funneled people) and no one gave a shit about leveling.

Never go full retard.

I'm pretty sure no one said it was necessarily there to hide the flaws.  I'm just saying that it is pretty damn funny he rates games by how long their NDA goes and yet his own NDA went after release.  If he gives +1 for every week before release the NDA is lifted, I guess WAR gets what? -2? -3? -4? :ye_gods:

I know it was fun in beta, that's why I bought it.  Some how they dicked it up though.

I was going to ignore Barnett because he was just too easy, but this one article should be remembered (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=19660). The grand irony is that apparently Barnett / Mythic didn't actually learn a number of these lessons:


Despite RvR being WAR's focus, apparently Mythic didn't trust this core idea enough given what WAR is at this point.


I wonder if by not playing WoW, Barnett was unaware exactly how much of it was ending up in WAR's PvE? Because if it was all new original thinking that got us to where WAR is, god help future MMO development.

Also, WAR is a long way from being the Monkees - currently they are closer to the Archies.


... and believe me, I've seen the impact of those three-star ability people.

I like that.  Makes good business sense to ignore your competitors, including the most successful competitor of all.

I thought I read McQuaid did not play WoW either, but I can't find the source.  Anyone know?

wat

In trying to figure out if McQuaid refused to play WoW, I reread this (http://f13.net/index.php?itemid=562).  Barnett jibba jabbas like him.

To be clear, ignoring other MMO's while making an MMO is  :ye_gods:.

Another quote on the NDA.

Linky (http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=970829&#post970829)

Fuck, I could have saved $100.

Why didn't I see this.    :ye_gods:

Despite mostly doing the same scenarios over and over and over again, I'm still having fun in WAR. That mostly is due to being in a guild and alliance with people who I formerly played DAoC with. I suspect if they weren't around I'd be binning it when my first subs are due.

When WAR lost its luster for me (happened quite suddenly mid-October, one day I was playing 7 hours and the next I couldn't log in ever again) I felt free for the first time in a long time.  Nothing big on the horizon MMO-wise, I could move on with my life (although I hadn't played an MMO in the year prior to WAR, I followed WAR a lot and had much hope).  I was finally free.

Then, six days later, SWTOR was announced.   :awesome_for_real:  And dammit, I'm a fucking addict and I have to follow this now.  Couldn't they have given me more than 6 fucking days??

It's funny you mention it Tri.  I was playing WAR happily until about the third week in and BAM, I got hit in the face.  I was standing at a quest giver waiting to play the same scenario for about the 10th time that night and it just stopped being fun.  I haven't had my love for a game end this abruptly... well... ever.  It makes me sad.  I really wanted WAR to be "that game I had been waiting for".  I need a new robot Jesus. 

Sounds a lot like what happened to me and AoC.

The problem there was....."So I am grinding to get to an unfinished and shitty Endgame? Fuck you Funcom".

And that was that.

Exactly.  Sure ae/stun grinding mobs wasnt a blast but the game itself held so much to keep you coming back (meaningful Realm Abilities, rr5 abilities, relics, darkness falls, stealth wars).  As it is I havent really played this game in a couple days and didn't really miss it. 

Sad from a 5 year DAOC player. 

Almost the exact same thing happened to me Nebu, except it was t4 Scenario that did it.

In beta I HATED Serpents Passage. Like loathed it. But I couldnt remember the name, and recently a few of my guild mates invited me to do t4 scenarios (im level 30) and when I realized that Serpents was the only one that popped on my server, it instantly sucked all my will to level out of me. There is no way I can stand to do SP like 100+ times. I have been struggling to log in ever since. It just stopped being fun.

Diablo 3 *is* robot Jesus, but like regular Jesus, it involves a lot of waiting.

I suddenly stopped playing at around 27 after the millionth tor anroc queue. Just closed the game out and did something else. The next day I tried to play again, tried to do some tome unlocks, ran around the empty world and logged off again. This went off and on until I decided I'd just suck it down and force myself to get to T4 while all my other friends stopped playing.

Got to T4, did serpents passage a few times with 5+ BWs every time and then that was it. Game over, man. Game over.

Funny thing for me, I got burned out on my main and played an alt for a while and seduced by the joys of tier 1 I reupped for 3 months.  Then I spent last weekend in the mountains celebrating my anniversary. When I came back I logged in and realized that I really had no urge to play and logged out.  I haven't logged in since.  I don't hate the game but it just doesn't appeal any more.   I wish I had realized this before I reupped. 

Heh.. I was on vacation all last week.  I got back and have no desire to log in, at all.  I even made an alt and got bored after lvl 3.  I might check it out again in six months, see what's what.

My WoW guild has a handful of Mythic employees in its ranks and each of them is up to 6+ days inactivity in our WAR guild; all the while maintaining a steady presence back in WoW knocking out year old content, gearing alts and playing with new talent toys.  I suppose that's as good an proof to the 'if x sucks people will return to shittheyplayedbeforex' statement.

I don't think I did that math thing right.

In tests, eight out of ten Mythic developers preferred World of Warcraft.

WAR makes me want to reactivate my DAoC subs.  I guess that says something. 

Too bad Mythic didn't just do DAOC v. 2.

Wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper?

What I think is most sad, is the WAR subforum is full of "What went wrong" threads, while the WOW subforum is full of stuff like "OMG ZOMBIES!"

[edited - pointing out the obvious is pointless and unnecessary]

I really wish they had done that. I really loved the setting of DAoC. Although seeing them cock up WAR makes me think DAoC 2 would have some "We learned the wrong lessons from DAoC" in it that makes me sour on the whole idea.

SIGH

Plus, we would be all separated again  :sad:

Nuh uh, we're all playing Midgard. Even you.

I prefer the greenwash to the greywash!

Too bad.

You could be a bard!  :awesome_for_real:

But can Bards pick up loot bags?

In daoc, all they ever did was jump up and down, same goes for minstrels, and whatever shitty musician class the other realm had. Skald. What the fuck is a Skald anyway?

Psychologists could have carved entire careers out of the need that musician class players felt to jump up and down on the spot in DAoC. Weirdos.

This.

Actually, I loved my skald character...

That was an inside joke.

My Minstrel was very active, by the way.  I'm not sure where you're going with the 'jump up and down' thing; I never saw that when I played.  And Skalds were Viking poets.

Sure. Viking poets who jumped up and down all the time.

Not as well as I could as a skald, baby.

Also, the only people I remember jumping up and down incessantly were kobolds. Universally across class.

Nope, minstrels and bards just jumped because wtf else are they gonna do.  All of their stuff is instant and they don't melee.  So they just jump around.  Skalds didn't jump though, because they were too busy hitting stuff instead of running around in circles jumping all over the place.  They were much fun.

It's hard to see over all the trolls.  :sad:

I don't know what Minstrels you played with but I would melee with mine all the time.  Slash specced Highlander, baby!  Oh, and the ablative shield song rocked the Casbah.

After playing more modern MMOs, that game is painful to go back to.

I wonder why slowing down movement speed when strafing or jumping was considered a good idea.

Are you suggesting that players should be able to move the same speed laterally as they can forward and back?  Seems a bit unrealistic.  I know I can go a hell of a lot faster forward than I can side-to-side.

Also, I don't recall jumping altering my speed ever. 

DAoC is dated, but it is still an example of a decently made MMO that is quite enjoyable and comeptitive at the highest level.  It, like WAR, just requires groups of other players for enjoyment. 

In EQ you could run FASTER by strafing and jumping than you could straight running.  Mythic promised to avoid this bit of "BS" in their PVP game after many whines from EQ-ers who apparently didn't undersand they could to the same thing to catch the folks running from them.

( Side note: I learned last night you can run faster in wow by jumping as you go along when a Dranei in my group bunny-hopped past me as we were exiting an instance.)

Poor man's SoW.

You're absolutely sure he just didn't have a speed enchantment on his boots?

Or a run speed Meta socket.

I too have returned to WoW (part time). I found my Trinity Bars was no longer supported, cried a little on the inside, and then actually enjoyed finding a new bar mod to work on. I had more fun doing that mind numbingly UI fix then I have on my 34 WP grinding out XP because no Scenarios pop and there is very little RvR.

I cannot fathom how Mythic would allow its current RvR model to remain in game. If I was Mythic, or Mark Jacobs, I would scrap my RvR system completely in WAR deal with the crybabies and go back to your true money maker, DAOC RvR. I would yank all Scenarios post T2 (do you really need them? you should know your class role in RvR by then) implement keep siege and defense directly from your money maker DAOC and call it a day. Let folks knock holes in the keep holes. Let folks take nearby towers to siege from, DAOC RvR was a blast... even 5+ years after release through the painful ToA expansion and omgwtf artifacts.

My g/f refuses to play, she was screwed by Mythic too many times (Midgard Beserker) and I should have learned better (Midgard Shadowblade, my poor poor Shadowblade). Ah well, I am still holding out for 1.1 but not relying on it to fix anything.

I hope they fix something in the next patch, my server is slowly dying from lack of orvr and scens are hardly popping. Has anyone even attempted a fortress siege since "the fix" they did?

The longer they wait to fix zone locking and the longer they wait to increase XP (overall), the more customers they will lose and the more server balancing they will have to do later. They are working hard and fixing things quickly but showing a severe lack of foresight. Did the beta testers not clue into what could possibly happen? Sigh.

What tier are you in and what kind of pop numbers? We had massive, massive oRVR battles on Ostermark last night.

What side are you on for Ostermark?

I am T4 (34 WP) but unfortunately my computer is a slide show in keep defense/siege. I didn't want to have to do a major overhaul on a decent system just to play in massive RvR but... we'll see.

I'm on Order. And yeah, things get a bit laggy. I seem to remember DAOC did this too but I wasn't in that game long enough to know if they fixed it.

Edit: By massive I mean roughly 2 full wargroups plus some solos on the Order side and 20-30 Destro.

On a funny note, Order only won the PQ because a single destruction player repeatedly charged into our lines. We were actually cheering when we'd see him come running back onto the battlefield. The rest of destruction was just sitting back by their camp and staying out of the PQ area.

Not bad, I do want to finish my WP to 40 just in case Mythic pulls their head out of their ass in the near future, or I upgrade my machine. However I have updated my UIs for WoW and I am mixing my time between the two.

I am with Call of Fate on there, and really that's all that keeps me going is having a decent guild with folks to play with. If I was on a low pop server with a small guild I'd already have canceled.

I'm sure it's an obvious comment, but have you installed the 'buffthrottle' mod? I couldn't survive any scenario or RVR encounter without it.

I havent but I'll check it out.

Determined to avoid hypocrisy, I tried the same tactic for Order when the rest of my T1 warband decided "we're losing, let's just go home". Because I still haven't managed to complete the PQ on my main (due to destruction boycotting once the kills reach 70+), I decided to bravely charge the enemy lines until someone won the damn quest.

Sadly, I was forced to stop when a small Destruction party made a concerted effort to continually gank me on the way to the PQ zone.