f13.net

A mod might want to move this to the CoH forums, but I thought the outcome of the lawsuit might have applications on other games, so I figured I'd try here first.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1333&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041111%2F2235482241.htm&sc=1333
Sorry, I have no idea how to make text links.

Summary from the article:  


I think this is pure idiocy, since Marvel doesn't lose a dime when some uncreative 12 year old wants to make a hulk clone (although I do get sick of seeing a new 'The Instopppable Hulkk' every other day or so).  It'll be interesting to see Cryptic's response.

I'm speechless at this stupidity.

I say that as a trademark lawyer.

Couldn't Cryptic just remove the offending costume choices and tell Marvel to shove it?

It would be somewhat difficult to find every combination of costume choices that bears some resemblance to a marvel character.

Only area I have some (very limited) sympathy for marvel is the claws powerset, where the animation is an obvious rip off of the XMen films. Whether this is actionable I have no idea and care even less, since it clearly is not going to do the IP owner any actual harm whatsoever.

Other than that it's just another example of exactly why the congress of 1790 (and the British parliment of 1710) got it exactly right in limiting copyright protection to 14 years. If lobbyists had not been allowed to continually rewrite the 18th century law, then maybe anally retentive protection of franchises is not what would drive the modern entertainment industry.

The problem is that the threat of a law suit is not very directly connected to its validity. But definitely agree that the extension of copyright, and the ensuing growth of `franchise' over actually producing good products, has had no shortage of negatives.

Not just somewhat difficult, but near impossible. I guess, say, in the case of the Hulk, Cryptic could remove any combination of huge and green, but that's fucked. There are alot of characters that could be made that way without ripping off the Hulk.

Somebody needs to explain to Marvel (or better yet, a judge) what custom character creation exactly is. I don't think they understand. It's not like Cryptic has a staff of content creators making these violations.

This is almost as moronic as the nintendo/suicide girls thing.

Nobody wins here.

Trademarks, which are different from Copyrights, have to be actively protected in the US or else you risk losing the rights to them. This is why companies like Disney actively go after, say, cheapo T-shirt vendors selling unlicensed T-shirts. If they didn't, they would risk losing those trademark rights.

And where has Cryptic even come close to infringing on Marvel's copyrights?  Quick answer, they haven't.  Just because I can sort of mock up a guy to look like Spider-Man or make a big green guy doesn't mean I've infringed Marvel's copyrights.

Now if all of a sudden Doctor Doom was a new arch villain in one of the updates I'd say, yes, then they have a case.

Again it's trademark and not copyright. Without having read the suit I can't really say what justification Marvel is basing it on. However, taking a page from RIAA's current copyright (not trademark) enforcement campaign it's possible Marvel is claiming that CoH, the program, is a tool for allowing people to create trademark infringing characters. This is analgous to RIAA trying to shut down file sharing programs like Napster which they claim are just a copyright piracy tools, though again RIAA's stuff is dealing with copyrights and not trademarks so the laws are different between the two.

Edit: BTW, this trademark infringment problem is somethng Cryptic and NCSoft have been aware of since the beginning. They were banning people in beta for creating characters too similiar to exisiting comic book characters. It sounds like post-beta their enforcement of the chraracter creation agreement has been lax.

Cryptic has an ace up their sleeve: before they launched they informed Marvel (and DC and perhaps others) of their product and asked for a list of names of trademarked or copyright characters to exclude.  There are no doubt other Marvel characters that were not named which now conflict with CoH "heroes" which Cryptic can claim is now "theirs".  Expect both sides to reach a mutually amicable arrangement.

Bruce

Ummm... isn't it more like free advertising for Marvel Comics? I mean really. I wouldn't have touched a comic book with a 40 foot pole before I played CoH, but I actually bought several afterwards. Looks like Marvel is getting the boycott from me now. Dumb fucks.

This is what I mean by no-one wins.  You'd think cross selling opportunities would abound.  But no, it's all 'stay away from my pig farm...'

I can't point to a specific source for this belief, but I'm under the impression that NCSoft isn't actively searching for infringements but will take action on specific instances if they are reported.

The only thing that surpises me about this is that it didn't happen months ago. Even in beta many were asking questions about if people like marvel would sue COH for copyright infringment.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


kaid

Dear Marvel,

Stop being douchebags.

Sincerely,
Ardent

I don't see how Marvel has a leg to stand on, when Cryptic will remove characters that infringe upon copyrights. Not only my wonderous Captain A-Hole, who had issues beyond his carbon copy of Cappy, but also my Man of Iron, who was removed on trademark issues alone.

I didn't expect to play either character, but I grew up a huge Marvel fan, so I just HAD to try making a couple. Even Cosmo is based on the Silver Surfer background...

Thank you, DMCA, and Fuck You, Marvel. I don't feel at all bad about getting BitTorrent comics now.

Seriously, after the raping of the Avengers that just took place in Avengers' Disassembled, the raping of Gwen Stacy's memory for the sake of short-term shock value, and this, I'm losing all respect for Marvel. DC, a minion of AOL Time-freaking-Warner is looking better.

Been in the game lately? It's not being enforced very well if at all. Perhaps that is where the problem is.

EDIT: For the record, I dont care. I'm just giving some info on the current status within the game.

Oh hell. Who cares if it's being enforced? (Obviously only Marvel) It's a fucking game. Or is Marvel planning on making their own superhero MMOG sometime soon? I tire of businesses trying to limit the amount of variety available to consumers.

Vivendi signs deal to produce MMOG based on Marvel Universe (http://www.megagames.com/news/html/pc/vivenditommogmarveluniverse.shtml).

Kind of puts the whole thing into perspective.

Enforcement is an issue, but we all know how hard it is to enforce stupidiot names in an MMOG. Unfortunately, judges and juries probably won't.

Wasn't that supposed to be made like...years ago? I wish them luck, because the Marvel Universe is a game worth making..As for this other shit, they need to quit.

EDIT: Ah I was right. That article was dated: Thursday September 19, 2002

Hope Cryptic poops all over them.

Sure, but 2 years time is nothing in MMOG development. Most take 3-4 years. Who knows what they have produced already (if anything).

Yes, but if it is ever even going to be made in the first place, you'll never get to play as any of the comic book heroes that they've written about anyhow. Kinda like MEO, where you can meet the heroes on their journey, but you can't play them, because they don't want 800 player-made Hulks running around. So if it does get made, it'll be lousy anyhow. And it'll be too little, too late. I can already play a superhero in CoH. Bad timing for Marvel.

Exactly.

Marvel does have a good Universe for an MMOG in theory. Basically anything imagined could be added in, any type of world, dimension, powerset. This would give huge variety and limitless content.

But…

Unlike CoH, Marvel’s universe is filled with, and centered around, the well known famous characters. I should never be able to actually play as Magneto or Hulk, and likewise I should never be able to kill them in the game. So what would they be, invulnerable merchants in town?

Too much Marvel content is untouchable in this manner. Players would expect to see these characters, and yet couldn’t really do anything to them or as them without big fiction problems.

They could pretend that there are no actual deaths, like in CoH. But I can imagine it being like EQ is now, where a powerful creature or god spawns and is killed within 10 minutes because it is Uber-Guild XYZ’s turn to kill him. Rather lame situation for Marvel heroes.

Marvel should avoid the MMOG fad. Do it some other way.

I don't see how this lawsuit could even work what with Cryptic contacting Marvel before even making the game and having a strict "no ripoff" policy in regards to character creation.

I'm not entirely too worried though since NCSoft is the 800 pound gorilla here.

The most fun I ever had in Star Wars Galaxies was when my little rodian found Darth Vader. Lord Vader wouldn't do anything but stand there, so I took a number of screenshots of me saying and doing very impure things to him. He didn't seem to care.

Seeing a naked rodian doing the lambada with a passive Darth Vader tends to diminish the immersiveness of the game world.

Ran across The Incratible Hulk in CoH yesterday.   Marvel has a case that people are emulating Marvel characters in CoH.

However, if Marvel at all hurts City of Heroes with this lawsuit, I'm going to never commit another act that supports them in any way ever again.

Thing that makes that such a stupid thing to say (if a judge were to agree) is that it also gives Marvel a case against anyone who manufactures drawing pencils, inks, pens, coloring materials, Photoshop, scanner companies, copier companies, and anyone with artistic ability and a penchant for over-irradiated avatars of personal rage.

EXCELSIOR!

They won't agree, its a frivolous lawsuit for what I guess is basically a PR move. I'd put my money on it being dropped before a judge would have to rule on it.

Hmm.. who came first, Godzilla or the Hulk.. both are big, created by science, destroy things, ambigously good on occassion and create fleeing masses of pedestrians when ever they are in the city.

You think Marvel can make a case?

Don't forget the green part....

(http://mysite.verizon.net/psmerolle/godz1vw.jpg)

Looks like Marvel is covering all bases with this one.

I had that comic!

I wonder if Marvel has enough money to win. I'd think Cryptic has as much money as they do considering the state of the comics industry.

Speaking of pencils -- from www.pvponline.com (http://www.pvponline.com):

http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20041112

Edit: Crude too wide, removed direct image link.

Yeah, both good examples of crap for shock value and hype, but DC came close to crossing the same line with Identity Crisis (still one more issue to go before I can make a real judgement).  While I don't feel too bad about torrenting comics though, I do still support the writers and comics I like, which as far as Marvel goes means I'm only buying New Thunderbolts and Astonishing X-men at the moment (Supreme Power got taken off the list due to it's extremely slow pace after the first arc, and the fact that having seen JMS posting online, I've seen that he's a bit of an ass).  I'll still check out New Avengers as I don't really think Disassembled was Bendis' fault but that's a whole other discussion.

Heh, I hadn't even seen that before I posted.  I just used "pencil" because that's what the Marvel guys use before their stuff is inked and colored.

Marvel doesn't make money on comics any more, they make money on IP.

When you've got massive loads of Hollywood sugar coming in at regular intervals putting out funny papers just kind of seems silly.

Partly true, in that I don't think Marvel makes much money of the monthlies anymore, save for maybe the very top books.  I would say though that they probably make a decent amount of cash publishing TPB's since there's a lot more bookstores out there than comic book stores, not to mention that you can order them from Amazon.com (shipping costs among other factors make it a pain for a casual reader to order monthlies online).  I've heard the Ultimate Spider-man collections sell fairly well, and Essential Tomb of Dracula, Volume 1 of which came out about a year ago has done so well that Vol. 3 and 4 are already on the way.

Besides that, I wouldn't advise Marvel to get out of the "funny papers" quite yet since it would just take a couple of Batman and Robin sized flops to send superhero movies back to the cellar for another decade if the public isn't getting tired of them already.  How many more Spider-man movies do you think they really have left in them, and how many 2nd or 3rd teir characters will end up having actually successful movies like Blade?

Fantastic 4 has a scheduled release data on the master list at work, just thoughti I would let you know.

There are lots of possible Marvel movies that are still in the pipeline - have a look here (http://www.comics2film.com/) if you feel like finding out.

To add to the comics-don't-make-money idea, there was a rumour a while back that Warner Bros lets DC Comics lose money since 1) its a tax write-off and 2) its the Superman / Batman / DCU IP that really matters.

Cryptic has known this day would come for a long time - fanbois who have been in the forums since October 2001 (ie me) have seen this issue raised repeatedly for no response from Cryptic. I'm sure that they've had their legal ducks set up in a row for quite a while, just waiting for such a lawsuit.

Finally, the character I see ripped off the most is War Machine - I've seen about six different versions (ie War-Machine, WarMachine, War.Machine etc) since CoH launched, all in the gray armour.  The best rip-off I ever saw was Papa Smurf, which just shows you how versatile the CoH character creation system is.

All in all, I expect a purge to happen soon.

The question isn't how many more movies based on Marvel comics can be churned out, it's whether or not they'll be any good or make money.  Characters like Iron Fist, Namor, or Man-Thing who are getting movies are probably going to have a hard time reaching Blade's level of success let alone Spider-man or X-men.  Blade's on it's last movie, X-men lost the director that helped make it successful, and Spider-man loses Raimi after the next movie.  I've heard a lot of negativity regarding Fantastic Four (although people trashing a movie before it's released is nothing new).  Studios can aim lower like they did with Daredevil or Punisher, but if a bunch of lower quality superhero movies start getting pushed into theaters does it risk killing the audiences interest in seeing any of them?

As far as the DC thing goes, that's a partial truth from what I understand.  I don't think it would be possible for DC to survive just based on their IP alone.  They've had about as many flop movies as they've had successful ones, and Smallville, the cartoons, and videogames I don't think are pulling in so much money that DC would be allowed to flush cash down the toilet on comics that don't make profit.  Being part of Time-Warner just allows them a little more leeway when it comes canceling books.  They can allow a lower profit margin on their books than Marvel can, and have been able to take more risks, creating imprints like Vertigo.

DC also makes a lot of their money off their TPB's.  They've been pretty good about collecting issues into TPB's soon after each arc is finished.  About halfway through Preacher's run I stopped collecting the monthies in favor of waiting for the trades since there was only a short wait for them.  In fact Marvel has been playing catch-up in the TPB market, and I'd say they really only caught up within the last year or so.  Marvel does have their Essentials line though which is a 24 issue collection or so in B&W for around $12-15, which is something I haven't seen a DC equivalent of yet.

Cryptic's forum statement on the issue...

Trade paperbacks have issues of their own, the main one being that in order to get into the bookstores, you have to agree to take back unsold product. For anyone who knows anything about the comics biz, that's a mortal sin. Comic shops get stuck with all the unsold product they buy, thus the collector's market has been propped up. Of course, that same collection/speculation market almost killed the industry by choking comic stores with the "next big thing" which got bought by stores in droves and ignored by comics fans. TPB's I think are the distribution medium of the future, as the monthlies are just a PITA for the whole industry. But transitioning like that takes a lot of time.

I don't know who to blame for the Avengers Disassembled, but I'll put it squarely on Bendis and Quesada. Their choices of characters to kill REALLY pisses me off, but the whole reasoning behind the attacks was even worse. Yeah, fuck you for pissing on continuity. I'm not one to say don't try something new, but holy shit, at least make it good. It just felt arbitrary.

And fuck them if they really do put Wolverine in the Avengers.

Identity Crisis makes me feel all icky, but at least its a well-written story, and the characters aren't too far out of their selves.

Last good Avengers story I liked was the recent Avengers/Thunderbolts mini.

I don't blame Bendis (not entirely anyway) because I think Joe Q. spent more time sucking his dick and telling him what a great writer he is and letting him write pretty much whatever he wants than he did making sure that Avengers Disassembled got done properly.  Even a lot of good writers need to be edited, but I think Marvel let's Bendis get away with a lot (especially after he brought Powers over) for fear that he would start writing more for other companies if they don't give him as much creative freedom as possible.

And I like IC, probably in part the same way that I've seen some people like Avengers Disassembled.  I don't know the characters all that well, so if they act a little out of character I won't really notice so it can't affect my enjoyment.  And yeah, Wolverine in the Avengers is a terrible idea.  Like some people have pointed out, New Avengers sounds more like that Secret Defenders comic Marvel put out in the 90's where Dr. Strange randomly throws groups together for each arc.

As far as trades go, Marvel especially paces it's stories now for the eventual tpb, making a lot of their comics hard to read as monthlies.  Stores that could have been told in 2-3 issues are now padded out to the standard 6 issues.  Trades do have their own problems, I've just been saying that regardless of how much money Marvel has made off their movies lately (and with Sony's creative book-keeping I have no idea how much money they've actually seen from the Spider-man movies) they probably shouldn't stop making comics and move to Hollywood quite yet.

The Avengers just haven't been the same since Diana Rigg left.

She's still hot - just in a matronly sort of way... :)  Only TV show that made me certain I'd look good in a bowler.  Well Clockwork Orange too of course...

"... sinnnnggging in the rain <OOF!>, just siinnnging in the rain <OOF!>"