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Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Pineapple on November 11, 2004, 12:38:05 PM Sounds like Hell.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/ Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 11, 2004, 12:59:20 PM Sounds par for the course. Any big studio will make you do this. How do you think EQ2 launched with the stability it did and with the huge patches they had EVERY week? Lax hours? No.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Polysorbate80 on November 11, 2004, 01:10:52 PM After seeing "salaried", I pretty much just skimmed over the rest.
If you're not an hourly employee, then the company can bend you over like that if it wants. All you can really do is decide whether or not to quit. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 11, 2004, 01:20:09 PM Quote from: Polysorbate80 If you're not an hourly employee, then the company can bend you over like that if it wants. All you can really do is decide whether or not to quit. Legally - it can't. Get a handful of employees to threaten lawsuit, quote a couple lines of law, and they'll get their head out of their ass real quick. After 1 or 2 days of overtime computer-types don't become more productive anyway. They just work slower. It's a myth that jack or shit gets done during overtime. Cuz it doesn't. Not any faster than regular hours at least. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shannow on November 11, 2004, 01:22:05 PM Solidarity comrades.
Seriously what other option do they have outside of unionizing? Or is there an outside body they could go to with their complaint? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: MrHat on November 11, 2004, 01:23:56 PM Quote from: schild Quote from: Polysorbate80 If you're not an hourly employee, then the company can bend you over like that if it wants. All you can really do is decide whether or not to quit. Legally - it can't. Get a handful of employees to threaten lawsuit, quote a couple lines of law, and they'll get their head out of their ass real quick. After 1 or 2 days of overtime computer-types don't become more productive anyway. They just work slower. It's a myth that jack or shit gets done during overtime. Cuz it doesn't. Not any faster than regular hours at least. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Lets say that when people work overtime, they work slow. Isn't 48 hours (40reg. 8overtime at half speed) still better than 40 hours? From an employers point of view. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shannow on November 11, 2004, 01:25:36 PM I think what hes say is that if a programmer knows hes gonna be working a 12 hour day he makes sure to space that work out over the whole 12 hours...
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: kaid on November 11, 2004, 01:28:14 PM Unfortunatly things like that are about par for the course. One thing though she mentioned the people not coming close to the 90k a year exemption for pay. Frankly if I am going to be working 90 hours a week my pay better be damn close to that exemption number or above it or it simply would not be worth the bother. There comes a time when you have to simply bust out the calculator and figure out what your real hourly rate is when you add in all this on compensated over time.
I have had friends doing jobs like this and I had them sit down and figure how much they were really making per hour with these insane scheduals. Usually they wound up making less than I do per hour and while I am comfortable I by no means bring home big bucks. There comes a point when you either just sit there and take it or wake up and go wow I am making shit lets go find a job that will support me without killing me. kaid Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 11, 2004, 01:35:27 PM Quote from: Shannow Solidarity comrades. Seriously what other option do they have outside of unionizing? Or is there an outside body they could go to with their complaint? I hear the Labor Department has a passing interest in this sort of thing. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Paelos on November 11, 2004, 01:40:51 PM I figure my salary should equal roughly $1000 a year per week-hour that I put in on an average basis. That's how I standardize my worth for accounting. I figure the same should apply to equally college educated, highly skilled employees.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Pineapple on November 11, 2004, 01:48:34 PM Quote from: MrHat I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Lets say that when people work overtime, they work slow. Isn't 48 hours (40reg. 8overtime at half speed) still better than 40 hours? From an employers point of view. After being on overtime too long, people start to not perform as well even during regular hours. They make mistakes, they slow down naturally, they get tired and lose morale. They cause as many problems as they fix. Many companies wont even think twice about laying off entire teams when a project is done. Hows that for thanks. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 11, 2004, 01:52:29 PM Sounds like my last job, only worse. Have all promised rewards or reductions in work load never manifest, only to be replaced with an even higher work load. Repeat until the employee burns out, because it's cheaper to can them after they're burned out and hire a replacement then it is to reduce productivity. If they don't like it, there's a nice long line at the unemployment office waiting for them.
I'm in college now, but that job left me worried that after I get out four years from now, I'll be dropped right back into the same situation. This report from EA_Spouse does little to allieviate these worries. Unable to resist dragging politics into this, it's my belief that leaving the Republicans in charge for another four years will more or less assure everybody's job will be like this eventualy. But then, EA in particular has been screwing over their employees for awhile. Don't forget what happened to Origin and Westwood. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shannow on November 11, 2004, 01:54:13 PM Another thing would be to make sure as many games news sites, tech sites (/.) etc saw that piece then eventually you have someone from a mainstream media outlet cornering executives in the parking lot to ask really uncomfortable questions....maybe not the best journalism but always fun to watch...
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Merusk on November 11, 2004, 02:04:32 PM So.. a big industry forces its workers to do long hours. The workers feel helpless to do anything but take it? Sounds Familiar. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1593080085/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-3868096-0371860?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER)
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 11, 2004, 02:04:52 PM Quote from: geldonyetich Sounds like my last job, only worse. Have all promised rewards or reductions in work load never manifest, only to be replaced with an even higher work load. Repeat until the employee burns out, because it's cheaper to can them after they're burned out and hire a replacement then it is to reduce productivity. If they don't like it, there's a nice long line at the unemployment office waiting for them. I'm in college now, but that job left me worried that after I get out four years from now, I'll be dropped right back into the same situation. This report from EA_Spouse does little to allieviate these worries. Unable to resist dragging politics into this, it's my belief that leaving the Republicans in charge for another four years will more or less assure everybody's job will be like this eventualy. 1) This is not the politics forum. DON'T BE A JIZZTARD AND TRY AND MAKE IT A POLITICAL DISCUSSION. 2) You've said that you want me to stop bringing up your last job. If that's the case, please do the same. 3) Companies try to extract the maximum productivity from their employees for the money being earned. They aren't around so people can sit around and say "What a fun place to work! Wheee!". Though it is nice to have such an environment, it is a luxury. Bring the noise. Cheers............... Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Sobelius on November 11, 2004, 02:23:48 PM Personally, I agree with the mantra that I work to live, I do not live to work. That said, I also believe I make the choice about where I want to work, what I want to do, and what I'm willing to accept or not accept.
I've worked since I was 10, delivering newspapers; worked in libraries, bookstores, for universities, and for private companies. No one forced me to work in any of these places -- I *chose* to work and accept an offer of employment. And I've even started my own business -- a really scary and amazingly enjoyable experience. I believe it is in an employer's best interest to treat people like the complex beings we are, not like units of work-hours or a production statistic. However, no matter how an employer behaves, the most important tool/asset I have is my own perception -- when I see myself as worthy of being treated with respect, that I am my own "business" within another business, and that I am free to stay or leave any situation (depending on contracted agreements, of course), then I ultimately empower myself. We only stay in "bad jobs" because we are afraid to leave them (for whatever reason -- afraid we'll not make as much elsewhere, afraid of what others will think of us, afraid we might have to be more responsible for our work rather than sliding by ...). Though I skew left/liberal in my views, I am also a big proponent of personal responsibility for one's choices -- which includes job/business/career. I find many of us Americans at one time or another disapprove of 'socialism' and its state-will-take-care-of-you features, yet it amazes me that corporate culture and job/careers are just a different guise -- a company-will-take-care-of-you mentality. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 11, 2004, 02:34:41 PM I'll agree with you on points #1, and #2 DV, but point #3 needs an important Coveat (one that Sobelius brings up):
Workers are people, and they work best when treated like it. Putting the spurs to people trying to eeke out every last drop of productivity for months on end is bad management. It will work for short periods - a loyal worker will be willing to humor you for quite awhile (I know I did). However, there's real physical and mental limitations which cause this to backfire: People burn out, they'll inadvertantly produce inferior work that sets you back, you'll lose your most experienced workers in the process of weeding the burnt out, and in the end you're left with nothing but utter incompetance from the ground up. At least, so I've come to believe. Hell, I never managed anybody, but I've been on the recieving end of bad management and this is what I observed. Good, talented techs get frustrated and quit and/or burned out and fired. New inexperienced techs or total heels who know they can't do any better are all you have left after awhile. You can't make a quality product with those people, but they'll do their best to fake it. Management's happy, but the company's going nowhere fast because they lost their best talent. Not that I'm saying you should pay people to slack off. I'm just saying that if you rev the ol production engine at a high throttle for too long, it's bound to burn out and you're left with a lame engine that can't pull you up a slight incline. Too many managers confuse maximum production for optimal long term production. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Kageru on November 11, 2004, 02:39:58 PM With the neat additional paradox that being able to work people like this increases unemployment which makes it harder for them to leave.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Ardent on November 11, 2004, 02:47:31 PM Just quit and be a technical writer.
I am totally the guy from Office Space. I spend my first and last hour of each day cruising the Internet, catching up on all my important and life-affirming information, like f13. I leave at the stroke of 5pm, every day. The only situation I have ever left work later is because I was chatting with a co-worker. I never ever take work home with me, and I can completely shut off my brain on nights and weekends. I have a very difficult time filling up 8 hours a day with work. And yet, the people here think I'm a "professional". Got them fooled real good. Of course, there is a downside. I am so unbelievably fucking bored and filled with the sickening, empty realization that I have the talent and intelligence to be actually DOING something with my life, but instead I'm coasting. Because it's easy and they pay me. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 11, 2004, 02:59:50 PM Keep the resume prepped. Management that clueless will lose you one way or another. Maybe they'll ditch the entire department because they don't know what it does. Maybe your nagging self-doubts that you could be doing something better with your life will manifest into full-blown stress (yo). Maybe the competition will buy you out. Ect. Enjoy coasting while it lasts, but keep on your toes.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 11, 2004, 03:05:27 PM Quote from: geldonyetich Keep the resume prepped. Management that clueless will lose you one way or another. Maybe they'll ditch the entire department because they don't know what it does. Maybe your nagging self-doubts that you could be doing something better with your life will manifest into full-blown stress (yo). Maybe the competition will buy you out. Ect. Enjoy coasting while it lasts, but keep on your toes. You'd know? Didn't think so. And yes, politics stay in the masturbating monkey forum, thx. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Pineapple on November 11, 2004, 03:11:50 PM Quote from: Ardent Of course, there is a downside. I am so unbelievably fucking bored and filled with the sickening, empty realization that I have the talent and intelligence to be actually DOING something with my life, but instead I'm coasting. Because it's easy and they pay me. I was in this situation before. I didnt like it. I knew the free ride would end eventually. That and I felt like I wasnt being productive, and it felt empty. Boring, just like you said. On the plus side, it was easy. I would take this over being worked to death and not paid overtime for it. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: MrHat on November 11, 2004, 03:17:20 PM Quote from: Ardent Just quit and be a technical writer. I am totally the guy from Office Space. I spend my first and last hour of each day cruising the Internet, catching up on all my important and life-affirming information, like f13. I leave at the stroke of 5pm, every day. The only situation I have ever left work later is because I was chatting with a co-worker. I never ever take work home with me, and I can completely shut off my brain on nights and weekends. I have a very difficult time filling up 8 hours a day with work. And yet, the people here think I'm a "professional". Got them fooled real good. Of course, there is a downside. I am so unbelievably fucking bored and filled with the sickening, empty realization that I have the talent and intelligence to be actually DOING something with my life, but instead I'm coasting. Because it's easy and they pay me. I quit a job just like that because I was bored enough to agree to help my dad w/ his company. Go go half the pay for twice the work. Don't work for family. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Polysorbate80 on November 11, 2004, 03:20:51 PM Quote from: schild Legally - it can't. Get a handful of employees to threaten lawsuit, quote a couple lines of law, and they'll get their head out of their ass real quick. After 1 or 2 days of overtime computer-types don't become more productive anyway. They just work slower. It's a myth that jack or shit gets done during overtime. Cuz it doesn't. Not any faster than regular hours at least. Unfortunately, they can. Salaried employees are generally exempt from overtime laws. There are obviously some practical limitations--i.e., they can't work you 24 hours a day until everyone dies of sleep deprivation--but so long as the company can make just as 'reasonable'-sounding a case as to why everyone should work non-stop twelve hour days then they're in the clear. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Rasix on November 11, 2004, 03:32:12 PM Quote from: Ardent Just quit and be a technical writer. I am totally the guy from Office Space. I spend my first and last hour of each day cruising the Internet, catching up on all my important and life-affirming information, like f13. I leave at the stroke of 5pm, every day. The only situation I have ever left work later is because I was chatting with a co-worker. I never ever take work home with me, and I can completely shut off my brain on nights and weekends. I have a very difficult time filling up 8 hours a day with work. And yet, the people here think I'm a "professional". Got them fooled real good. Of course, there is a downside. I am so unbelievably fucking bored and filled with the sickening, empty realization that I have the talent and intelligence to be actually DOING something with my life, but instead I'm coasting. Because it's easy and they pay me. Heh, you're like the twin I never knew. While I like to not consider myself a technical writer, in essence I really am. I do planning for our future technologies, work on information design issues, run some servers and other junk, but at the core (and the bulk of my job) is technical writing. It's not one bit difficult (sad thing is that my manager knows I'm unchallenged). I get weeks to do things I can get done in a day. Being the slave of development also allows huge gaps of nothing at all to do during the week. It's a completely unchallenging job, but I work my 40 a week, telecommute once a week, and haven't had to skip out on family commitments due to work, ever. I also get paid really well (I guess that's where my degrees come in.. I think). This can vary at my company, as one group with an over ambitious manager buried his group deep enough that they've had their vacations cancelled and are on a mandatory 50 hours a week. This is why working in the game industry, at least for me is just a fantasy I had when I was young and single. Working yourself to death on something you care about seems to pale next to what level of security I can provide for myself and my family. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Polysorbate80 on November 11, 2004, 03:32:30 PM A quick Google to refresh my brain on FLSA requirements, shows that overtime-exempt employees must:
A) meet a minimum salary level. I'm not sure of what the cap is where EA operates, but I believe the feds were trying to push it down to somewhere around $60k? B) the employee has to be salaried, not hourly and C) they must be administrative, professional, or executive. Your typical programmer could probably be argued into the 'professional' category under the provided rules, even though most of us associate it with doctors/lawyers/etc. So, it's more restrictive than I was thinking, but I think these folks are still S.O.L Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Ardent on November 11, 2004, 03:48:55 PM Ah, Rasix, you know my pain. I don't have the wife or kids, so I don't have those entanglements ... or those ultimately larger reasons for enduring the boredom.
I have no fantasies to work in the game industry. I have friends that work for both SOE and Blizzard, and I see what they have endured this year. They all work longer hours than me and make less money. However, there are times they actually look forward to going to work. As good as this company is and as well as they have treated me, I can't say as I have ever felt that way. It's not the company, it's the job. Has anyone here done any kind of career counseling? I know there are interviews and tests given by "professionals" to try and point you in a direction you find fulfilling, but I've been warned that many of them can just cost a lot of money and tell you what you already know. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shockeye on November 11, 2004, 03:52:33 PM Quote from: Ardent Has anyone here done any kind of career counseling? I know there are interviews and tests given by "professionals" to try and point you in a direction you find fulfilling, but I've been warned that many of them can just cost a lot of money and tell you what you already know. Here you go. (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=Ft1ElCOASg&isbn=1580086152&itm=1) That'll be $1.995.95, please. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Ardent on November 11, 2004, 04:04:30 PM Quote from: Shockeye Here you go. That'll be $1.995.95, please. I guess everybody's job sucks, otherwise books like this wouldn't be best sellers. I suppose I just need to shut my whiney ass up and be grateful for what I already have. OR ... come up with some kind of self help nonsense I can sell. Mmmm, my inky, black heart likes this idea. Can I PayPal you the 2 grand? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 11, 2004, 04:06:46 PM A Parachute! I knew I was forgetting something.
Quote from: Ardent I suppose I just need to shut my whiney ass up and be grateful for what I already have. OR ... come up with some kind of self help nonsense I can sell. Mmmm, my inky, black heart likes this idea. Major De Ja Vu. Did I type this over a year ago? No, my option #2 was to try to generate enough motivation to find another job before I burn out completely. Ardent++. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shockeye on November 11, 2004, 04:23:02 PM Quote from: Ardent I suppose I just need to shut my whiney ass up and be grateful for what I already have. OR ... come up with some kind of self help nonsense I can sell. Mmmm, my inky, black heart likes this idea. Make sure you call it a religion (http://www.scientology.com/) for the tax benefits. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Viin on November 11, 2004, 04:25:25 PM Bah, you don't need career counseling. Just find something you like doing and figure out a way to make money doing it.
I actually do enjoy my job (enterprise level support for developers and server admins at MapQuest) but I've often considered doing something else - if only for the fact to learn something new. Which is probably why I joined the Air National Guard in a completely non-computer field (and have been to Iraq couple times already). As an example, I love flying. I'm sooo close to my pilots license but my last deployment cut that just short and I haven't picked up again. If I wanted to get into the aviation business I have a few options: a) be a flight instructor, b) go to school for an A&P (mechanic) license, c) work at an FBO (rent airplanes, etc), or d) be an airplane salesman. I'm sure there's more (including being a pilot-for-hire, but that takes $$$ and many many hours flying), but you get the idea. You probably won't make as much, but you can make ends meet. It's all a matter of lifestyle. Heck, I know guys who skydive for a living during the summer and do contract (construction, programming, etc) stuff during the winter. Anywho, my point is that you don't need a book to tell you what you like. Surely there's something you enjoy doing that you could do to make money, even if it's not as much? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: stray on November 11, 2004, 05:43:24 PM Quote from: Viin Anywho, my point is that you don't need a book to tell you what you like. Surely there's something you enjoy doing that you could do to make money, even if it's not as much? True that. The way I figure is, try to recall what you enjoyed when you were a kid, what interests or skills you put to use then. Pursue that, or at least some kind of variant of it, and you'll be happy. Some things may seem unrealistic, but that's bullshit. If you stick with it, it'll all eventually even out. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: MrHat on November 11, 2004, 06:18:53 PM Quote from: Viin Heck, I know guys who skydive for a living during the summer and do contract (construction, programming, etc) stuff during the winter. Funny. I know people who work summer, and snowboard winters. As to all the "find something you love and make money doing it." Fuck if I know what I want to be when I grow up. Only thing I like doing is procrastinating. Can I make money doing that? Or is the prerequisate of enjoying procrastinating having a job you dislike? There, I've gone and confused myself. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Viin on November 11, 2004, 07:54:28 PM Quote from: MrHat As to all the "find something you love and make money doing it." Fuck if I know what I want to be when I grow up. Only thing I like doing is procrastinating. Can I make money doing that? Or is the prerequisate of enjoying procrastinating having a job you dislike? There, I've gone and confused myself. Heh, I think you pretty much nailed it. If you are in a job that you don't like and aren't going anywhere (and don't do anything about it) then you pretty much are being paid to procrastinate. ;) It's certainly hard to know what you can enjoy doing for a living, but I think most of it stims from uncertainty and unfamiliarity. It takes a lot of guts to step out and do something new and completely different without knowing how the cards are going to fall. If you are stuck in your job and want to get out, take a chance! Go back to college full time, go to that pastry chef school, get your pilots license, join the Reserves, do _something_. What's the worse that can happen? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Resvrgam on November 11, 2004, 08:10:06 PM Quote from: Viin What's the worse that can happen? Homeless. No Health Care. Freeze to Death. End up selling oranges on the side of the road ...or worse... (http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/fallingdown.jpg) D-FENS!! ;) Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 11, 2004, 09:31:53 PM Man, even ***I*** wanted to kill Barbara Hershey in that flick.
Bring the noise. Cheers............... Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Trippy on November 12, 2004, 04:27:53 AM That sort of rant strikes me as horribly naive, but then again I've been working in Silicon Valley tech jobs all my adult life. The software "death march" is standard practice at many software companies and while EA's sounds a little extreme it's certainly not unique. At my previous job most of engineering was on a two year death march and involved like over 500 people. This sort of thing isn't unique to tech companies either -- associate lawyers are expected to bill 80 hours a week at many law firms.
There have been a lot of changes in overtime laws in the last few years in both California and at the Federal level, so it's possible she has some legitimate complaint, though the special programmer exemption she's referring to is actually $41 an hour not $90K and you get paid for all hours worked, not just 40 hours a week. That exemption, though, only applies to more senior positions. Entry level programmers and other less senior types do not qualify for that exemption. For example if her SO is just a coding monkey working from a detailed spec he might not qualify. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shannow on November 12, 2004, 06:16:25 AM Quote from: Trippy This sort of thing isn't unique to tech companies either -- associate lawyers are expected to bill 80 hours a week at many law firms. Just a point but the difference is that the lawyers are BILLING for 80 hours, not just working them and getting paid for 40. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Trippy on November 12, 2004, 06:52:07 AM Quote from: Shannow Just a point but the difference is that the lawyers are BILLING for 80 hours, not just working them and getting paid for 40. Yes that is true. That example was just to show that working very long hours on a regular basis is nothing unique to EA, the video game business, or programming in general. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Trippy on November 12, 2004, 07:48:20 AM More stuff on EA as gathered from Slashdot:
EA workers readying class action lawsuit against EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html) Blog entry from ex-EA developer (http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/368.html) Title: Re: Want to work at EA? Post by: Roac on November 12, 2004, 08:27:13 AM Being salaried does NOT mean that you can be forced to work obscene hours without overtime pay. However, if your position is listed as "Exempt" under FLSA (Fair Labor and Standards Act), you can be pushed around by your employer in that way. If you are exempt, you do not receive overtime, and may be called upon to work well beyond 40 hours per week. Whether this is a wise decision of senior management is another question, but it is entirely legal. And yes, failure to spend 40+ hours at work at your manager's request can be grounds for disciplinary action. No, you do not have legal recourse.
One exception: some states have Right to Work laws, with varying strengths. On a federal level such laws are about non-existant, especially if you are classified as exempt. State laws may be more restrictive, however, and I'm not familiar with any outside my own. About the spouse's complaint that the employees receive no "Comp time" - this is in fact outright illegal for any non-governmental employer to hand out. For those who may not know, comp time is where an employer hands out "comp time" which can be used similarly to annual leave, in lieu of overtime payment. So if I work 41 hours one week, and am non-exempt, my governmental employer can give me 1.5 (time and a half for overtime) hours comp time instead of 1.5 hours salary. My private sector employer CANNOT DO THIS. They must pay me 1.5 hours salary. Exempt employees do not get either. Worse, an employer of an exempt employee could not give their employees 1.5 hours overtime to be "nice", since that would give almost guaranteed victory of the employee to sue their employer in court for full overtime coverage, since they could qualify for non-exempt status. Regarding the spouse's reference to California law on exemption; states can be more strict about issues, but not less. Federal law under FLSA lays down the rules for exemption and non-exemption, with the protection being given to non-exempt employees. State law cannot widen the number of people who fit into exempt status, but they can narrow it. Unfortunately, federal law has a special clause for IT professionals, making the number of IT people who fit under exempt far larger than for any other profession. That category of workers are specifically named. For those interested, you should read snippets of federal FLSA law, as well as past court cases regarding it. Couple hours of reading should give you a good idea of what'sg oing on. Basically, this employee has no legal grounds to stand on. They got pissy, and his boss fired him. Maybe he had a mean boss, but unless there are California laws about Right to Work that covers his situation, he doesn't have a leg to stand on. He should've left voluntarilly when he was offered. I am an application manager, and certainly wouldn't want to hire anyone with that kind of attitude. HR was right; either fall in line, or get out. If you don't like how the game is being played where you work, leave. There are better employers out there, and you will not win that kind of fight. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 12, 2004, 08:41:14 AM As someone who is consistently bored and unchallenged at my work place, I can safely say a few things. First off, find what you know you're going to love to do and make every effort to do that, even if it means working at a shit, dead-end job to make ends meet to finance your real life.
Also, if you are young, and know it will take a while to find the job or occupation that you want to do, DO NOT RACK UP CREDIT CARD DEBT. Watch your debt very hard. Do not try to splurge. Credit cards are easy temptations for future wage slavery. Avoid them like the plague. Even if you think you are strong enough to resist bad behavior, you are fooling yourself. You'll end up 30 and in more debt than you can pay, and forced to stay at jobs you hate simply because you can't quit. I know from experience. Finally, the game industry knows the loopholes they can straddle with employee hours and abuses them to the nth degree, to an even worse degree than the rest of the software industry (which is almost as bad system-wide). They should all be ashamed of themselves. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: SirBruce on November 12, 2004, 10:06:53 AM I don't know if California law has been changed to make it more difficult or not to screw exempt employees, but I know it's pretty standard in the computer industry.
However, I do know there was a case of <mumble> v. Ingram Micro, where some IT folks managed to sue Ingram Micro to claim their jobs (tech support and the like) didn't really qualify as exempt. I am told they won but I've never been able to look up the decision. I can only conclude it was narrow enough that it didn't really apply outside their specific case. Bruce Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Roac on November 12, 2004, 10:16:35 AM Tech support would not normally fit within the IT exemtion. Job titles themselves aren't relevant for determining exemtion status, but if their job is answering the phone and tossing out level 1 support, they wouldn't qualify. Nor would going to users and helping them fix screwups in Word and such.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: SirBruce on November 12, 2004, 10:18:57 AM Everywhere I have worked in the Valley, Tech Support DID indeed qualify as exempt, or at least, employers thought so. This was, of course, under old FLSA rules, so if they've changed in the past few years, or if CA indeed has more restrictive regulations, anything is possible.
Bruce Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: shiznitz on November 12, 2004, 11:04:10 AM Quote from: HaemishM Finally, the game industry knows the loopholes they can straddle with employee hours and abuses them to the nth degree, to an even worse degree than the rest of the software industry (which is almost as bad system-wide). They should all be ashamed of themselves. I don't buy that "right to work a dream job." The working conditions in any industry are easily determined with minimal research. Awareness should be part and parcel of anyone's career plans. Knowing conditions are bad and taking the job anyway means you give up the right to whine. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 12, 2004, 11:12:24 AM Agreed. No one has the "right to work a dream job." And if you take a job in an industry you KNOW fucks over its employees on a regular basis and gets away with it, in this day and age, you're either too desperate or too stupid. That still doesn't make EA any less of a bunch of puppy-strangling sheep fuckers.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 12, 2004, 11:13:08 AM Quote from: shiznitz Knowing conditions are bad and taking the job anyway means you give up the right to whine. This assumes that you chose to take a job. There is also a rather youthful assumption that it's easy to just pick up and find another job, if you do not like the one you have. In many of these stories, a company like EA absorbs a smaller company, and the workers from the smaller company are forced into a new culture. This was not their choice -- they were essentially sold out by their greedy management, who proceed to float away on their golden parachutes. Likewise, these issues often are overlooked by young workers... Often they have no prior experience with which to compare their conditions, and they also do not have children, wives, and significant responsibilities outside work. Many of them just assume that a job in the gaming industry is a dream career, equivalent to getting paid to play sports. Notice that most of these stories involve spouses and kids. Most reputable employers understand that families are important for workers, and make allowances. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: WayAbvPar on November 12, 2004, 12:21:35 PM Quote from: SirBruce Everywhere I have worked in the Valley, Tech Support DID indeed qualify as exempt, or at least, employers thought so. This was, of course, under old FLSA rules, so if they've changed in the past few years, or if CA indeed has more restrictive regulations, anything is possible. Bruce My anecdotal evidence- I am the only non-exempt employee in my office (there was another one, but he is moving to another project). We are mostly a software development division, but I provide tech support/help desk assistance to the users of one of our software products. They would love to have me as exempt (which I wouldn't mind, if only to not have to use the shitty web-based timekeeping system in place for the hundreds of non-exempt employees at other facilities), but apparently WA law defines my job as non-exempt. The good news is I get OT if/when there are any emergency contacts outside of business hours. I get about 2 a year =P Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Margalis on November 13, 2004, 01:50:01 PM Note: I am a "Techinical Lead" at a software company, manage a couple of people, and have worked 100 hour weeks.
Something a lot of people are missing here is that technical work is not of the nature where more = better. When people get run-down they make mistakes, and those mistakes then take more time to correct. I have worked very very long hours for some periods of time, but I spent some of that time doing non-technical work like editing and writing documentation. I am 100% certain that I would accomplish less working 100 hours a week than 75 actually programming. I have worked with a number of people who tried to be heroic and pull long hours, only to screw us with things other people would have to hunt down and correct. So, regardless of whether the death march is wrong or legal of whatever, a lot of the time it is counter-productive. You end up accomplishing less, so then you have to work longer to "make up" for it, and then you introduce even more problems. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: daveNYC on November 13, 2004, 06:15:54 PM Quote from: Margalis So, regardless of whether the death march is wrong or legal of whatever, a lot of the time it is counter-productive. You end up accomplishing less, so then you have to work longer to "make up" for it, and then you introduce even more problems. Software problems are not a problem when talking about computer games. In the couple of weeks it takes the gold code to make it's way to the store shelves, there's enough time to slam out that first critical patch. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Margalis on November 13, 2004, 07:58:46 PM Quote from: daveNYC Software problems are not a problem when talking about computer games. In the couple of weeks it takes the gold code to make it's way to the store shelves, there's enough time to slam out that first critical patch. But after that you are still behind. Negative productivity is negative productivity no matter how you slice it. That critical patch that fixes the most glaring issues could have been to add polish instead if hte glaring issues had been fixed. The bottom line is that people have limits at all things that require significant brain investment, and once you cross that limit you don't just get lower productivity, you can get negative productivity. For most workers, the last 10 hours in a 100 hour work-week will actually be setting the project back. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Murgos on November 14, 2004, 06:46:22 AM IT would (specifically programmers) seem an ideal candidate for unionization. There is a high barrier to entry, you can't just hire scabs off the street to work those jobs. If all your programmers strike, and your company produces software for a living your business fails. I think the only real reason there isn't a programmers guild or union is that in the past salaries have been voluntarily high enough that it was a moot point. If you can make 70 - 90k on 4 or 5 years experience with full bennies whats a union going to get you?
Considering that software production relies ENTIRELY on the efforts of the workers I wouldn't be surprised to see the workers start to exert some more of this massive leverage they have sooner rather than later. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Resvrgam on November 14, 2004, 08:43:25 AM Quote from: Murgos IT would (specifically programmers) seem an ideal candidate for unionization. There is a high barrier to entry, you can't just hire scabs off the street to work those jobs. If all your programmers strike, and your company produces software for a living your business fails. I think the only real reason there isn't a programmers guild or union is that in the past salaries have been voluntarily high enough that it was a moot point. If you can make 70 - 90k on 4 or 5 years experience with full bennies whats a union going to get you? Considering that software production relies ENTIRELY on the efforts of the workers I wouldn't be surprised to see the workers start to exert some more of this massive leverage they have sooner rather than later. One sad factor to plug into that equation is: "So you guys are gonna strike if we don't give you benefits? Fine. I'm sure Sanjay, Rajiv, Rana & Samir over in Bombay will be more than happy to take those jobs off your hands for a lot lower pay. Thank you, come again." :( Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 15, 2004, 08:37:18 AM The fact that physical location means jack and shit to software production, and having remote locations in India actually lowers the cost of production rather than raising it makes the idea that programmers unions will form ludicrous. While the programmers may think unionizing would allow them to fight outsourcing, it'll have the exact opposite effect unless "no outsourcing" laws are put into place.
"We'll strike!" "I'll hire Samir." "Shit." Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AOFanboi on November 15, 2004, 11:12:16 AM Quote from: HaemishM "We'll strike!" "I'll hire Samir." "Shit." "Uh, Samir, how is your team coming along with our must-be-released-with-the-movie licensed game? It's awfully close to the gold milestone date..." "Why don't you take an expensive flight halfway around the world and find out, sahib? As far as you know we are working very hard here." Outsourcing development means outsorcing responsibility. Local developers can be supervised face to face. If you wish to sacrifice that option, by all means pick the cheapest route, but remember the rule: "Cheaply, quickly, reliably, pick any two." Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 15, 2004, 12:11:09 PM I think the game industry has shown over and over again that reliability is job #50,003, especially when cheaply and quickly are options.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Trippy on November 16, 2004, 12:54:50 AM Apparently the news of EA's working conditions hasn't reached Sweden as EA made an offer to suck the life out of, I mean buy Swedish developer DICE:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041115/145038_1.html DICE will soon join such previously illustrious game companies as Origin, Maxis, Bullfrog, and Westwood Studios in having all their creativity crushed out of them by the video game juggernaut that is EA. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Disco Stu on November 16, 2004, 06:02:44 AM Quote from: AOFanboi Outsourcing development means outsorcing responsibility. Local developers can be supervised face to face. If you wish to sacrifice that option, by all means pick the cheapest route, but remember the rule: "Cheaply, quickly, reliably, pick any two." Do you think game publishers like EA really give a fuck? With the type of working conditions being talked about they are almost assuredly scarping the very bottom of the barel in terms of programming talent anyway. No decent programer would ever in their right mind work under those conditions without a lot of compensation. Sure you may get a couple of guys with talent who really really really want to make games but most of the people who will stay around working in conditions like that do so because they are not good enough to go somewhere else. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Comstar on November 16, 2004, 06:47:59 AM Well, why hasn't it been outsourced already? They won't. After all, one of the hallmarks of EA is breaking up stuido's that have worked well in the past, and moving them wholesale to be closer to managerment.
When EA starts importing programmers from India, they you can worry. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Margalis on November 16, 2004, 12:20:18 PM A lot of game programmers are very poor. I interviewed at a bunch of game places a while back, it was kind of sad. At the time I was just out of college and I was better than anyone I talked to at any level. And I'm not claiming to be a programming genius.
Case in point, one of the lead programmers working on the high-profile project of a company with a lot of weight behind it was a former Turbo-Pascal programmer who had gotten fed up with his job analyzing stats for MLB. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 16, 2004, 03:27:38 PM Quote from: Trippy Apparently the news of EA's working conditions hasn't reached Sweden as EA made an offer to suck the life out of, I mean buy Swedish developer DICE: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041115/145038_1.html DICE will soon join such previously illustrious game companies as Origin, Maxis, Bullfrog, and Westwood Studios in having all their creativity crushed out of them by the video game juggernaut that is EA. Damn, I called that like 1 month after DICE had a hit with BF1942. Countdown to DICE Shutdown and Absorption: 1 year. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: WonderBrick on November 17, 2004, 08:36:47 AM http://www.igda.org/qol/open_letter.php
Quote Quality of Life Issues are Holding Back the Game Industry Despite the continued success of the games industry, the immaturity of current business and production practices is severely crippling the industry . The recent frenzy of discussion over impassioned testimony about the horrible working conditions within much of the industry attests to the reality of this often unspoken disease. As the professional association that unites the game development community and serves as its voice, the International Game Developers Association is deeply disturbed by this vicious cycle and is working to better the situation. Improving the quality of life of game developers is an IGDA priority. In tackling quality of life issues, it is important to realize that poor quality of life is symptomatic of more fundamental challenges within the industry (e.g., consolidation, ever-evolving technology, one-sided contracting, lack of project management expertise, no craft/job standards, etc), which in turn all need to be addressed in order to truly improve our work/life balance. What's more, game developers are sometimes just as much to blame for submitting themselves to extreme working conditions, adopting a macho bravado in hopes of “proving” themselves worthy for the industry. Our own attitudes towards work/life balance and production practices need to change just as much as the attitudes of the “suits.” For those who are looking to unionization as an option, it is important to note that the IGDA is not a union and cannot “become” one: the IGDA is incorporated as a non-profit professional association, which has a distinct role from that of a union. Further, as an international organization, the localized nature of unions (i.e., often requiring state by state and country by country solutions) is beyond our organizational scope. It is unfortunate that it has gotten to the point of engaging in class action lawsuits. While some industry workers choose such legal means to gain retribution, the IGDA believes that a conciliatory approach is also an option. The reality is that there are game companies that have proven that a focus on quality of life can lead to great games, AND business success: BioWare, Firaxis, Team17, Blue Fang, Cyberlore and Ensemble are just a few of the studios that put as much effort on keeping their employees happy and healthy as on their bottom line. These, and other sensible companies, realize that a strong quality of life leads to more productive and creative workers. In turn, these workers produce better games, and stay in the industry to share their experience with all the passionate new recruits - helping to avoid common mistakes and recurring pitfalls. Further, they realize that driving their people into the ground is a short-term view that is not sustainable. It is sadly ironic that those who strive for success at any cost don't realize that mature and responsible human resource and production practices will more readily bring them what they so desperately seek. That is to say, regardless of the humane imperative, maintaining a strong quality of life is just good business. The IGDA's white paper on quality of life best practices (http://www.igda.org/qol/whitepaper.php) has already served as a powerful tool, but it is only the first step. Via an upcoming “best companies to work for” initiative, the IGDA will provide awareness of enlightened companies and their practices so that others in the industry can learn from their wisdom. Similarly, the IGDA will shine a light on the wealth of research and knowledge being generated from outside the games industry. To aid in these outreach efforts, the IGDA will be hosting a full-day quality of life think-tank (http://www.cmpevents.com/GD05/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=4063) at the annual Game Developers Conference in March. Also, we'll be encouraging our 80+ chapters from all over the world to host local meetings and sessions to discuss and explore this important issue. Further, the IGDA has two special interest groups that will help in sharing knowledge and work on related issues: the Production SIG (working to formalize the production process) and the Human Resources SIG (hub for HR professionals). The efforts of these two SIGs, in addition to the ongoing work of the Quality of Life Committee, will ensure a diverse perspective on solving quality of life problems. This is only the beginning and we're still forming plans. We encourage everyone to get involved. We ask that you contact us (qol@igda.org) to volunteer, provide ideas, success stories, resources and any other relevant information. In particular, the IGDA is requesting details on active and pending lawsuits to add to our reference list online. We have no doubt that with everyone's help and contribution we can save the industry and art form we are all so passionate about. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 17, 2004, 08:46:22 AM Quote from: Margalis A lot of game programmers are very poor. I interviewed at a bunch of game places a while back, it was kind of sad. At the time I was just out of college and I was better than anyone I talked to at any level. And I'm not claiming to be a programming genius. Way back in 1995, I tried to get in with a local NC-based company, as a project leader. I had some concepts fleshed out for an early MMO idea, but they told me basically "we already have all the concepts we need, right now we just need C++ experts." Well, they proceeded to launch about 5 flops in a row, totally uncreative throwaway strat/sim titles, and they folded. Anyway I learned then and there, the industry tends to stifle creativity, and most of these companies are just copying other hits. For programmers and project leaders, they are mainly looking for people who will fit with the programme, and crank out whatever is the flavor of the moment. Fortunately, that experience helped direct me toward more stable, mature industries :) Seems to me like very few people can count on a long career in the gaming industry, nor should they expect to. There simply aren't many incentives for companies like EA to treat employees well, or encourage creativity. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Margalis on November 17, 2004, 06:57:10 PM The lack of creativity comes from two distinct forces. The guys at the top are looking for the "next big thing" and think that best way to do that is to clone the last big thing.
Meanwhile, a lot of the guys on the bottom really played and liked a certain game and are basically hoping to re-create it. That's how most game-programmer wannabes start out. (That's certainly how I started out) "Diablo was so cool man, we should make a game like Diablo!" It's funny because the guys at the top just look after the bottom line, while the guys at the bottom want to make something they genuinely think is cool - but instead of clashing they both think along the same, incorrect lines. You would think they would be at odds but the aren't. Part of that is that game programmers are often young, not very worldly, and can only conceive of "cool" in relation to existing things. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 17, 2004, 07:35:21 PM Quote from: Margalis The lack of creativity comes from two distinct forces. The guys at the top are looking for the "next big thing" and think that best way to do that is to clone the last big thing. Meanwhile, a lot of the guys on the bottom really played and liked a certain game and are basically hoping to re-create it. Haha yeah good analysis. The guys at my local game company were very much like you describe, addicted to Warcraft and wanted to copy it. Their bosses were just money men. Now, I can't say my particular idea would have saved their company, but obviously they needed concepts a little more than they thought... Anyway I would add a couple other factors. First, if you overwork your employees, creativity is almost guaranteed to suffer. And second, the really big companies like EA make a habit of buying creative ideas from smaller companies. Outsource the creativity, bring it in-house once it's a proven concept, and use your wageslave codemonkeys to create a surefire sequel or expansion. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: koboshi on November 18, 2004, 12:48:32 AM I'm a college grad who has been looking for a job in the industry since before I graduated. Now, half a year after graduation I still haven't been able to break down the steel reinforced door to this industry. How surprised I was to read that not only is the door wide open but they have been just begging for me. After slapping myself a few times ( once to see if I was dreaming and the rest just cause I've been turned on to masochism by this whole experience) I sat down to write this flame.
What Fucking Shit! Where do I sign up for the scab work? I am a 24 year old, fresh out of school and I don't know any better. I would love nothing more than to replace a more qualified professional. I haven't had a date for six years so I don't think I would miss the social life. I get paid minimum wage to fill popcorn bags then sweep them up when the infants who bought them decide they only wanted a few bites and promptly throw the rest on the floor. A minimum wage, by the way, that is one of the lowest allowed by federal law. At a game company I would work for table scraps if it would give me that "must have a minimum of 1 (2, 5, 10, N+1) years experience," I find on every fucking job listing. I guess the last hundred or so resumes I sent were all misplaced, that would explain why HR doesn't even have the decency to send a "Fuck off, we got someone ten times more qualified than you!" e-mail. OR maybe you just need to shut your fucking holes lest your silver spoons fall out! I got the IGDA open email and had to read it twice. Where's the punch line? Seriously... Quote from: IDGA "Horrible working conditions"... "Unspoken disease"... "Poor quality of life"... "Driving people into the ground" Is there a cat-o-nine-tails involved somewhere? Do they only get to drink from a communal bucket that doubles as their toilet? Are these people sleeping on the streets? I live in D.C. where people do live in the streets, and don't cry about it half as loud as these bitches. Oh, no, I have one of the most demanding and interesting jobs in the world, two women love me, my wallet's too small for my fifties, and my diamond shoes are too tight! Simply put if you're one of these Quote from: IGDA White paper on 'Quality of Life' 34% said that games were only one of many career options for them Then get the fuck out of the way and make room for those who plan on making games their whole life and don't think of this as just another paycheck. To those who are still crying about the state of the industry, get a loan, make a company, and only hire seasoned professionals (applicants must have 3 shipped titles in as many years) like everyone else does! Every good career starts with shit work and yours is no exception, but if you’re still at a company that "abuses" you after 5 years, you don't need a career counselor you need a battered women's support group. "He only forces me to do overtime because he loves me!" Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: sinij on November 18, 2004, 01:17:27 AM koboshi, you missed the point. There is no good reason to work people that hard other than for enjoyment of making their life harder. If your main concern is maximizing productivity you should stop short of 60 hours a week. That aside why do you think ‘industry’ makes it different – it is job for people that may have families and social life. Would you like to sweep your fucking popcorn for 78 hours a week?
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 18, 2004, 06:31:27 AM It's great that you are so motivated Koboshi, but there is such a thing as shitting in your own nest. Sure, right now you are willing to do anything short of drinking from a communal urine pool, to get a job in the industry. But you will not be happy, when they are still working you like a slave in 10 years, you are still single with no social life, and you are a pill-popping prematurely aged, unhealthy cubicle troll.
There are plenty of places in the world, where people can work in horrible conditions for a living wage. But few of those places even pretend to be centers of creativity or invention. The United States lives and dies by our ability to lead through example. Movies and gaming are some of our biggest exports, and they require creativity to thrive. With that said, good luck getting a code monkey position someplace, and hopefully someday you will move up to something more creative and less grinding. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Roac on November 18, 2004, 06:53:17 AM Quote from: AlteredOne Anyway I learned then and there, the industry tends to stifle creativity, and most of these companies are just copying other hits. I hear complaints along these lines a lot. It's easy to be the backseat driver and make that type of criticism, and far harder when you're the one having to put up your money for a project that no one has tried before, and with the knowledge that most "innovative" projects wind up failures. Innovation is a very expensive proposition. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 18, 2004, 07:02:25 AM Quote from: Roac I hear complaints along these lines a lot. It's easy to be the backseat driver and make that type of criticism, and far harder when you're the one having to put up your money for a project that no one has tried before, and with the knowledge that most "innovative" projects wind up failures. Innovation is a very expensive proposition. Yep in that particular case, I'm playing backseat driver with the knowledge that the company failed. But of course, there can be a million financial reasons for a company to fold, even when they have great ideas and employees. It seems like the gaming industry is rapidly becoming like Hollywood, with a similar executive culture. Sequels are seen as sure-fire moneymakers, witness EA with endlessly updated sports franchises, FIFA soccer anyone. EA's sports dominance is especially ingenious, because it is driven by simple turnover of real-life sports talent. Every year you need a new title with all the new teams, and you don't even need a ton of new coding. Just keep those databases updated with stats for all the players, and add a few new graphics, music and audio commentary in each release. Mega money! Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 18, 2004, 09:48:43 AM HELLO, MCFLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. That's not what Koboshi was saying at all. Or at least what he meant.
He's willing to work the shit hours for shit pay to get the experience required to get the good jobs. These EA employees are bitching instead of walking away. They are qualified professionals and like their job enough that they don't want to quit but they're willing to sue the pants off their company. Everyone outside of the gaming industry KNOWS about the death march, goes in applying knowing about the death march and expects nothing less than stupid hours for just under what the pay should be (or very under in my case). I don't bitch about my hours. Some days I only see my bed and my desk. There's nothing in between. And shit, I don't even get benefits. Basically - he's right. These fuckers diamond shoes don't fit and they want new ones. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 18, 2004, 10:49:17 AM Quote from: schild HELLO, MCFLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. That's not what Koboshi was saying at all. Or at least what he meant. He's willing to work the shit hours for shit pay to get the experience required to get the good jobs. These EA employees are bitching instead of walking away. Yes it's cool that he's willing to work his ass off to get started. But it's my impression that some of these stories involve relatively senior staff (i.e. the guy from Maxis), with years of experience and families. Is the answer always, "Just walk away and find another job," or should workers expect to earn some flexibility, once they've paid their dues? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 18, 2004, 11:03:38 AM If you don't like what's happening, demand better pay and walk away. Low level people are a dime a dozen. If high level, experienced people started walking away - things would change. Drastically.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: koboshi on November 18, 2004, 01:13:58 PM Quote from: Koboshi Simply put if you're one of these Quote from: IGDA White paper on 'Quality of Life' 34% said that games were only one of many career options for them Then get the fuck out of the way and make room for those who plan on making games their whole life and don't think of this as just another paycheck. To those who are still crying about the state of the industry, get a loan, make a company, and only hire seasoned professionals (applicants must have 3 shipped titles in as many years) like everyone else does! Every good career starts with shit work and yours is no exception, but if you’re still at a company that "abuses" you after 5 years, you don't need a career counselor you need a battered women's support group. "He only forces me to do overtime because he loves me!" Was I being unclear? Did I mince words? Seriously did any of you read my last paragraph! Yes its hard a nasty job market out there but if you are hireing lawyers maybe its time to conceder other companies. If you’re such a valuable member of your team leave and make the right kind of company, or shop your ass around. I mean shit, if your too over worked to do that they have people who do it for you! (http://www.mary-margaret.com) Thanks go to Schild for getting what I was saying. To the rest of you, you can all take your A for effort and shove it! The truth of the matter is that despite the bitching and moaning of the plague of scab workers all the evidence I have seen in my struggle is to the contrary, that there are little to no low level positions available. Oh and Alteredone, FUCK YOU for comparing yourself to sweatshop workers. It's that kind of shit that has me so pissed off, if for no other reason that you get FULL FUCKING HEALTH AND DENTAL AND A 401K! If worse comes to worse you wont starve so stifle that injured sparrow crap. Just say what you really mean, "I don’t want to work this hard", to which I respond, "I do!" For the living wage instead of the minimum wage, for the free games, for the health coverage that doesn’t involve dialing 911 for an appointment, for the pride of pointing to a game and saying I made that and the respect that brings, for the chance that in 10 or 20 years I might be able to say "I have an idea" and have people listen, for the chance to look on at speculation thread and chuckle at what they think is coming, for the ability to never again have to ashamedly explain that I am only doing this until I get a 'real job', and finally and most importantly, for the love of the fucking game! Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 18, 2004, 01:31:18 PM Quote from: schild If you don't like what's happening, demand better pay and walk away. Low level people are a dime a dozen. If high level, experienced people started walking away - things would change. Drastically. Yeah, you'd get promoted! /rimshot Bring the noise. Cheers............ Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 18, 2004, 01:35:21 PM Quote from: koboshi Oh and Alteredone, FUCK YOU for comparing yourself to sweatshop workers. It's that kind of shit that has me so pissed off, if for no other reason that you get FULL FUCKING HEALTH AND DENTAL AND A 401K! If worse comes to worse you wont starve so stifle that injured sparrow crap. Hold your horses. I'm not comparing either you or me to a sweatshop worker. I was simply saying that plenty of countries treat workers like dirt, and Americans try to be better than that. And don't assume that you automagically get "Full health and dental and a 401k" if you work in the industry. Schild is talking about working with no benefits. You seriously think that every senior person can just waltz out and start their own company? It takes a budget of millions to make today's game titles, which is why the gaming industry is coming to be dominated by huge companies like EA. This seems to be your idea -- if you're senior and you feel exploited, just leave. Fine, this works for some people. But why force good people out, just because they have trouble working the same hours as a 20-year-old? Isn't it perfectly conceivable that you could be a 35-year-old guy with a great resume, with a new family, and you need a little flexibility to manage all your responsibilities? In many companies, companies encourage employees to have children. Why should the game industry be so different? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 18, 2004, 01:39:22 PM Quote from: AlteredOne In many companies, companies encourage employees to have children. Why should the game industry be so different? Because this is the gaming industry, and the guys with the suits and MBAs think you guys never get laid, and are just pissed about missing Star Trek. Bring the noise. Cheers.............. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Roac on November 18, 2004, 01:47:30 PM Quote from: AlteredOne In many companies, companies encourage employees to have children. Why should the game industry be so different? Because they can get away with it. Almost every Comp. Sci. graduate wants to make video games for a living. Yet, the percent of the workforce who are actually doing that is vanishingly small. The jobs just don't exist. So, supply and demand. Game companies don't have to care. That doesn't mean some won't, but there's no market pressure to. Remember that job environment is just one more level upon which companies can compete for employees; employees generally like "pro-family" environments, because most employees are older than 21, and have or are thinking about a family. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Margalis on November 18, 2004, 01:57:48 PM The vast majority of game programmers are not high level workers. Even team leads are often not really high level with regards to the entire company.
Plus, if they leave, where do they go? Would you hire a guy to work for you when he left his last job because it was too much work, when your company expects those same sort of hours? Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: schild on November 18, 2004, 02:22:18 PM Quote from: Margalis Plus, if they leave, where do they go? Would you hire a guy to work for you when he left his last job because it was too much work, when your company expects those same sort of hours? He'd go to a company that pays their people for the time they spend working. Here's the thing, I have no problem working long hours for little pay if I enjoy what I do. But if I had a family and other priorities - I'd expect a fat fucking paycheck for leaving them at home to rot. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Merusk on November 18, 2004, 02:57:21 PM Quote from: schild Quote from: Margalis Plus, if they leave, where do they go? Would you hire a guy to work for you when he left his last job because it was too much work, when your company expects those same sort of hours? He'd go to a company that pays their people for the time they spend working. Here's the thing, I have no problem working long hours for little pay if I enjoy what I do. But if I had a family and other priorities - I'd expect a fat fucking paycheck for leaving them at home to rot. And then you're right back on the street looking for a job because people like koboshi and your current self are more than willing to do the job for less pay and a worse schedule. Face it, y'all are on a suck it up and ignore the family or lose the job career path. Accept that, plus that even if you ignore the family if you aren't stellar you're expendable and enjoy the ride as much as you can. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 18, 2004, 05:12:12 PM Let's not forget that the game industry only has two doors for entry.
1) Know someone, or 2) Be willing to work Q&A for a long goddamn time despite whatever resume positives you have. If you don't have 1, you damn well better get 2. Because I don't know of any game companies that hire programmers out of school to do anything other than the shittiest testing possible. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Comstar on November 19, 2004, 04:15:16 AM I thought intern's was the other commen way? CRS has one doing thier new buildings, and another one redoing nearly all the sounds (http://www.withresistance.com/OtherMedia/NewSounds.wav).
Working at a game company would be a dream for me, but I wouldn't be able to understand the whole "you work for hours on end and not get paid for it" bit. I always thought people get paid for working, even in dream jobs or locations. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Shmtur on November 19, 2004, 05:36:06 AM Quote from: Merusk And then you're right back on the street looking for a job because people like koboshi and your current self are more than willing to do the job for less pay and a worse schedule. Face it, y'all are on a suck it up and ignore the family or lose the job career path. Accept that, plus that even if you ignore the family if you aren't stellar you're expendable and enjoy the ride as much as you can. Wow, what a shitty attitude. Workers aren't expendable assets - if EA (and others) continue to treat workers this way, there will be a backlash, period. Lawsuits, strikes, organization of a union - whatever. And the workers will be completely 100% right to do it. They don't have to just accept it that the hours at the job they want to work at suck when those hours are worse than what you'd expect at just about any other profession, especially when combined with worse pay and sometimes a complete lack of benefits to boot. That's not a problem with the workers, it's a problem with the company. A squadron of inexperienced people wanting that job doesn't make it ok to treat the people currently there like shit. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: AlteredOne on November 19, 2004, 05:41:18 AM Quote from: Comstar I always thought people get paid for working, even in dream jobs or locations. For comparison purposes, I think the movie industry may be the closest thing to gaming now. They are both "dream jobs" which put out product on a scheduled cycle with a high budget. In fact the budgets are very similar to movies now, for big gaming titles. Game programmers are probably comparable to movie film/technical/audio/editing crew, for payscale and so forth. Difference is, most of those motion picture folks are unionized. And of course, the lion's share of the profits go to the studios in both cases. The other big difference is the lack of actors for gaming, although even that's changing with lots of games using big-name voice actors. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Aenovae on November 19, 2004, 12:03:57 PM Quote from: HaemishM Let's not forget that the game industry only has two doors for entry. 1) Know someone, or 2) Be willing to work Q&A for a long goddamn time despite whatever resume positives you have. If you don't have 1, you damn well better get 2. Because I don't know of any game companies that hire programmers out of school to do anything other than the shittiest testing possible. This is totally false. Activision, for example, is desperately hiring every programmer, artist, and designer they can get their hands on right now. They have over 100 programmer positions unfilled. 90% of the people I know in the industry were hired out-of-the-blue, without knowing anyone on the inside. It's true that it is hard to get into the industry, but that's because game companies don't hire any chump with a degree and an idea. As long as you have a useful degree and are not a moron, you're guaranteed a plush job at giant, non-game corporations that just need bodies. These are the jobs where you sit in a cubicle and read web sites half the day. THESE jobs are the ones that are easy to get for the educated person. But that ease does not apply to the game industry - hence the "it's hard to get in, and there are so few openings" illusion. In reality, most game companies are deperate for developers. REAL developers, even entry-level. They want programmers who spend half their free time working on personal projects and the other half playing games. They want artists who make pretty things in MAX and Photoshop whenever they have free time. They want designers who make major contributions to the mod community and play every game they can get their hands on. Game companies don't give two shits if you have a comp sci degree or if you have "lots of great ideas for games" or if you have a fancy art school degree. All they care about is evidence that you can actually PRODUCE WORK. Of course, all advertised openings demand "two years experience necessary," but in reality game companies regularly and often hire entry level applicants - directly into programmer, designer, and artist positions. The trick is that you need to have a real portfolio - something that only 1% of applicants actually have. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: SirBruce on November 19, 2004, 12:10:48 PM It's hard for a designer to have a "real portfolio" when game companies don't want to look at it because they don't want to be sued for stealing your designs.
Bruce Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Pineapple on November 19, 2004, 01:47:54 PM Quote from: SirBruce It's hard for a designer to have a "real portfolio" when game companies don't want to look at it because they don't want to be sued for stealing your designs. Bruce I'm betting 9 out of 10 hires in designer/programmer/artist positions are someone the hiring person knows. A buddy. I'm betting the other 1 out of 10 is someone referred to them through a friend, a buddy of a buddy. True that they also need to have some sort of skill, but the game company people know plenty with experience and skill. That's who their friends are. Plenty of them are out of work too apparently. That would make it hard to break in as a new person. Not even mentioning the stories of shitty pay, horrible overtime, and common layoffs. I have leard it is somewhat the same way within the movie industry for non-union people. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Paelos on November 19, 2004, 01:58:48 PM Dear Lord, why put up with any of that. Take an IT job at a small business or something.
Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Miguel on November 19, 2004, 02:24:50 PM You guys need to approach this topic as a beancounter would, then it all becomes clear why things are the way they are: the mathmatics and logic of business are exceedingly simple!
Profit = Income - Expenses As a beancounter, my job is to make Profit as high as possible. I have two ways of doing this: A. I need to maximize my income B. I need to minimize my expenses Income: to maximize income, I have to sell everything I produce at the highest possible price. Since price points are relatively fixed (I can't charge $250 for my game, lest nobody would buy it), the only way to increase income is to sell more units. The only way to sell units is to have them produced and available to sell. This means I need to get the product into the market as quickly as possible. Unfinished products and late products do not generate income. Allowing projects to slip directly lowers income. This is bad. to be avoided at all costs. Expenses: I need to make my expenses as low as possible. Hiring half as many people and making them work twice as hard makes my expenses less. This is good. Giving out the bare minimum of perks and benefits makes expenses less. This is good as well. Making salaries as low as possible makes expenses less. This is good. Giving people comp time or overtime pay increases expenses. This is bad. Time off for vacation cannot be legally avoided. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Pineapple on November 19, 2004, 03:38:51 PM Quote from: Miguel You guys need to approach this topic as a beancounter would... Try to factor in company morale, work environment, loyalty. You cant put a mathematical number on those, which is why beancounters miss them. However they are essential elements in a successful business, if you are talking long term. This is why I hate beancounters. No offense to you personally, but really. Do not see me as a number on a chart, and you might be suprised at what I can do for you. Look at all the projects and companies driven into the ground as failures, and you will see beancounters behind it scratching their heads and wondering what happened. That and bad management. Again, please dont take personal offense. There's just two ways of looking at it. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 19, 2004, 03:48:53 PM Quote from: Miguel Objectivist theory Thank you, Ayn Rand. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: sidereal on November 19, 2004, 04:09:55 PM The Miguel model misses two major externalities:
1. Units sold. This is the result of product quality and marketing. Product quality is a direct result of treating employees well. 2. Turnover costs. Particularly the loss of institutional knowledge. Any beancounter who doesn't factor those two numbers in is an embarassment to the bean counting profession. One barometer is whether your company drives unit sales primarily with product quality or primarily with marketing. Larger and publically owned companies tend to go with marketing, because it is safe and calculable. Generally, with a medium-quality product, you can turn x$ spent on advertising into y sales with predictability. If you rely on quality, you might get 10y if it's a great game and you might get 0 if it sucks. Large companies and companies with shareholders are risk averse. They'll take y over a gamble between 0 and 10y. In general, that means they would prefer to spend just enough money to make sure their product is mediocre, not terrible, and then use marketing to drive sales. And it means one of the major incentives for keeping employees happy goes away, leaving only reduction of turnover costs. I'm guessing that that model largely drives why big companies like EA destroy their employees and seem to make a ton of money anyway. They hypersell mediocre games built on the back of replaceable employees. And it means if you want to be treated well, pick a company that sells games based on its reputation for quality games. Edit for a follow-up: If you don't like that model, the most effective way to get rid of it is to reduce the correlation between marketing and sales as much as possible. Early, independent, hype-free game reviews. Get them out of bed with the developers. If the model was changed such that quality was the only thing driving sales, not pre-release hype and media blitzes, publishers would demand better games, and developers would have to treat their employees better. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Miguel on November 19, 2004, 04:10:52 PM Sorry I should have been clear.
I'm not a bean counter, nor do I agree with anything that I wrote above, but I understand how they think. Acknowledgement is not advocacy. I have worked with countless beancounters, and in general they tend to either discredit or outright ignore anything that cannot be tabulated on an Excel spreadsheet. This is just simple fact. However benefits, work hours, man hours/weeks, vacation, salaries, timelines, deadlines, head counts, etc, all CAN be tabulated on a spreadsheet. Hence this is why those parameters are the ones that are tweaked when the corporate machine wants to twist something to their advantage. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: SirBruce on November 21, 2004, 03:17:48 PM This story won't die... now the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/business/yourmoney/21digi.html?ex=1258693200&en=40a60cc6d7971ab2&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland) is looking into it.
I welcome the attention, but sadly, this is par for the coruse in Silicon Valley. If the rules are going to be changed, it needs to go beyond just EA and games. Bruce Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 21, 2004, 04:19:30 PM The thing that really bothers me the most about this is that crushing impact to creativity that working people this hard has. Zombified wage slaves who can barely drag themselves into work to plot down some buggy code do not good games make. Energetic, well rested people make better games because their creativity has not been destroyed by their workload.
There's a real plague infecting some corperate thinkers, and that is that they want everything now. They won't spend time making a quality product or treating their workers well to assure they have a decent QoL. It's all about getting everything now now now, because if they don't, their competitors will. Capitalism's a mess sometimes. It's enough to make a hardcore gamer foster downright Marxist thinking. Me, I'd love to work in the game industry, because I love games. I could even pass up a family, as many game developers do. However, if being chained to a desk for 80 hours a week and being told to live and breath games or be fired is all I have to look forward to, it's hardly a bright future. Game development is an attractive field because of it's potential for creative expression, not because of the resulting medium. Frankly, I'm wondering what my odds are of succeeding as an indy developer. If bigger companies are working their coders to death, my odds of producing a quality product that can knock gamer's socks off really improve. Only issue is, I'm not likely to be able to compete so far as content is concerned, and games are becoming more and more content-inclusive all the time. However, the possibility is not eliminated that game mechanic alone can overcome this. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Righ on November 22, 2004, 03:15:19 PM Quote Me, I'd love to work in the game industry, because I love games. If you are your own boss, you will do 100% of the work generating 100% of the income, the government and other leeches will chop off a decent amount of that, and you can use the rest. If you are somebody else's boss, you can cut part of their income off for your own purposes, before the leeches devalue it further. Spend money on benefits and you can further decrease the wages you offer staff. This is the price of employment. You want to go into business as a development company. It can be done, but you will want to put yourself in the position of the employer boss if you want to succeed. You need to have people at least doing other "menial" tasks so that the "talent" (yourself presumably) will have the environment to create product. Those people will need to be employed, and you will have to profit from them (get better value from them than your competitors do from their counterparts) Forgive me for saying so, but I don't think that you've adjusted to the mindset required to be an employer. You could easily work for yourself as a sole contractor. Don't live under the illusion that you will be coding any of your own designs any time soon. To be a freelance software architect, you have to have more than a name for yourself. You need citations, or at least references that pass as such. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 22, 2004, 03:32:45 PM I was thinking more along the lines of a small time indy developer gig. Richard Garriot and a few of his friends were able to get their start distributing their games via sneakerware for awhile. A bit later, ID Software made a name for itself starting with a string of shareware titles such as Commander Keen. It's not undoable in this day and age, but the rules of changed.
Content is my primary contern, as the modern game these days requires that a great deal be generated. Counterstrike and Day of Defeat are two of the more recent examples of how people get their start in the gaming industry through labors of love. They didn't develop the engine, but they were allowed to use a pre-existing codebase to develop a product that Valve ultimately came back and bought from them. Raven Software got it's start developing games that ran on the Doom engine. Basically, they got around the hurdle of all the content that needed generating by using pre-existing engines and development tools to make it easier. Though, I imagine it still wasn't a cake walk. Do my skills fit the bills yet? Nope, far from it. All I've got is over 20 years of computer game playing experience to fuel my idea game designs and a mismatched pocket full of unprfoessional Java and C++ experience. I'd need to practice long and hard at something I enjoy to get even nearly the skills needed to program professionally. The best I can look forward to in the immediate future is putting together something as simple as a NWN Module or, if I really wanted to buckle down, some rudimentary Half Life 2 mods using the distributed SDK. Even a text-based Roguelike game would suffice. If nothing else, my efforts would prove a nice portfolio for potential game developer employers. Supporting myself is unlikely something I could do from indy game development alone. The guy who started Natural Selection manages to support himself from donations, and Natural Selection is Big. Even if my games were OMG awesome, I doubt I'd be able to generate sufficient publicity to get people to actually play them over the din of the overhyped. However, it'd make for a fun hobby in addition to a Real Job (tm). Plus, you'll notice, very few of these guys did it alone. Another hurdle I'd run into is getting adequettely skilled and commited with people who actually want to commit time to my brainchild games. That's a considerable social hurdle for me. So yeah, I put a little thought into this. Willpower, per usual, is the main hurdle I'm up against. There's a million and one things that would prevent me from being successful in an already overtaxxed industry, but naysaying doesn't get labors of love made. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: daveNYC on November 22, 2004, 07:44:54 PM Quote from: sidereal The Miguel model misses two major externalities: 1. Units sold. This is the result of product quality and marketing. Product quality is a direct result of treating employees well. 2. Turnover costs. Particularly the loss of institutional knowledge. #2 is overrated. EA can probably get away with using the lowest of the low to update the 200X sports titles, put the medeocre people to work making Sims expansions, and the core group of 5-10 people who they pay good money working on actual new games. Our company had some high turnover back in 1998-2000, it had an impact, but not much of one. The young'uns left, but there was a core of three older coders who were able to pick up the slack. Our production schedule is probably a little more sane than EAs is. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: plangent on November 23, 2004, 05:48:19 AM Quote from: geldonyetich Sometimes, I wish my title was "not worthy of the pig". It should be. Nothing against you, it's just that Porco Rosso is way too fucking cool for anyone here to measure up. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Roac on November 23, 2004, 07:20:04 AM Quote from: geldonyetich I was thinking more along the lines of a small time indy developer gig. Richard Garriot and a few of his friends were able to get their start distributing their games via sneakerware for awhile. That was when games could be produced by one guy. Pick some downright rotten game off the shelf; you're looking at a good 20 people and a couple years at least to get that produced, at least. Some games more. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: HaemishM on November 23, 2004, 10:01:23 AM Quote from: daveNYC Quote from: sidereal The Miguel model misses two major externalities: 1. Units sold. This is the result of product quality and marketing. Product quality is a direct result of treating employees well. 2. Turnover costs. Particularly the loss of institutional knowledge. #2 is overrated. EA can probably get away with using the lowest of the low to update the 200X sports titles, put the medeocre people to work making Sims expansions, and the core group of 5-10 people who they pay good money working on actual new games. Actually, they don't even need that core group of 5-10 people, they just find indy developers like DICE, offer them enough money to make hats out of 100's and then buy them up once they make a hit or leave them high and dry if their game isn't a hit. Absorb enough workers to get by when you eventually close down the indy shops, rinse and repeat. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 23, 2004, 10:21:19 AM Quote from: daveNYC #2 is overrated. EA can probably get away with using the lowest of the low to update the 200X sports titles, put the medeocre people to work making Sims expansions, and the core group of 5-10 people who they pay good money working on actual new games. Despite popular belief, the EA Sports titles see a lot more change than just a roster update. Some good examples include the Tiger Woods series, NASCAR series, Fight Night, and even Madden. Now you aren't going to get anything breathtakingly dramatic, because the sports themselves don't really change all that much...but they've put some serious work into each new title, especially over the last few years. Bring the noise. Cheers.............. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: geldonyetich on November 23, 2004, 01:10:13 PM Quote from: plangent Quote from: geldonyetich Sometimes, I wish my title was "not worthy of the pig". It should be. Nothing against you, it's just that Porco Rosso is way too fucking cool for anyone here to measure up. Fully agreed. I hear the American release will be done some time in 2005. I think I'll buy it for the parents. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: daveNYC on November 23, 2004, 09:44:43 PM Quote from: Dark Vengeance Now you aren't going to get anything breathtakingly dramatic, because the sports themselves don't really change all that much...but they've put some serious work into each new title, especially over the last few years. I'd believe it, but is what they do that much that they would need more than one or two old hands, leaving the rest to a train load of 22 year olds? Oh well, anything that might take EA down a notch or two is a good thing. Title: Want to work at EA? Post by: Dark Vengeance on November 24, 2004, 05:05:06 AM Quote from: daveNYC Quote from: Dark Vengeance Now you aren't going to get anything breathtakingly dramatic, because the sports themselves don't really change all that much...but they've put some serious work into each new title, especially over the last few years. I'd believe it, but is what they do that much that they would need more than one or two old hands, leaving the rest to a train load of 22 year olds? Oh well, anything that might take EA down a notch or two is a good thing. Do me a favor...rent the last 2 NASCAR games. Or the last 2-3 Tiger Woods games. Or just for kicks, rent Madden 2002-2005. There are some very substantial differences between different versions, and with competitors like ESPN/Sega producing high-quality titles at a bargain bin price point, the pressure is even greater to produce a better product in order to justify the price differential. In short, your answer is an emphatic YES. Though I must say that EA would have been smart to keep the EA Sports Bio around. IIRC, I rented all but one of the 2004 titles...and quite frankly, it kept me pretty loyal toward EA Sports titles. It was a stroke of genius, such that it sucked to see the idea cast aside so soon. Bring the noise. Cheers............. |