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f13.net General Forums => Warhammer Online => Topic started by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 05:51:38 AM



Title: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 05:51:38 AM
...when to patch an MMORPG.

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2048444

There's really only 1 rule (which you keep breaking for seemingly no reason):  You do it as far away from your primetime usage as possible.  That means you patch on Monday or Tuesday at 5 AM EST.  Always.  Not fucking friday morning when you get into work.  BAD.

Mythic, come on now.  Stop failing MMORPG 101 class.  You've got a good game on your hands.  You have a chance to acquire a few of those Blizzard moneyhats that you long for, (represented by your cranky asocial irrational customer base*) like the geeky high school student staring across the window desperately at his hot neighbor (whom already has a boyfriend).  You'd be able to impress her with your impressive guitar mastery*, you little Malmsteem you, but you keep forgetting to fucking bathe.

Anyways Mythic, you do very little to instill any confidence in the future because somehow you seem to have not learned some of the very basic lessons in this business, despite the fact that you've been doing it for quite a long time now.

I'm just glad this shit didn't happen on our server, although we did have all sorts of scenario difficulties last night.

*This, of course, doesn't reflect me

*it's easy to get good at guitar when you have no social life


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 05:53:34 AM
I'm not big on tin-foil hats but...

Quote
This update will address issues with performance of certain in-game social elements, such as /tell, /group and guild communication.

Bullshit. No one brings servers down for that. What a crock of ass.

Real reason plz. Maybe they're fixing the Marauder ability that's firing twice each time you press it once. Yea, I saw a marauder do about 172k damage in a scenario. Was pretty damn amazing.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 10, 2008, 05:55:39 AM
I thought the guild communication thing stopped people in guilds from flying anywhere, dunno that seems a bit serious, just reading that thread is all.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Trippy on October 10, 2008, 05:58:28 AM
Some programmers like working over the weekend :awesome_for_real:

(It's quieter, less distractions...)


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: amiable on October 10, 2008, 06:01:43 AM
I'm not big on tin-foil hats but...

Quote
This update will address issues with performance of certain in-game social elements, such as /tell, /group and guild communication.

Bullshit. No one brings servers down for that. What a crock of ass.

Real reason plz. Maybe they're fixing the Marauder ability that's firing twice each time you press it once. Yea, I saw a marauder do about 172k damage in a scenario. Was pretty damn amazing.


That's nothing, I've seen screenshots showing Maruaders doing 420,000 damage per scenario.    That coupled with Chaotic Rift is GG.

Also population issues are rearing their ugly head on Volkmar, where Destruction is taking Altdorf because they can farm empty instances, there aren't enough Order players to enter them all.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
Quote
I thought the guild communication thing stopped people in guilds from flying anywhere, dunno that seems a bit serious, just reading that thread is all.

Yeah, although it's still pretty evasive to call that a guild communication bug.  It's more a bug that doesn't allow you to join scenarios, disables flying anywhere, makes your guild disappear, and disables your social window.   :drill:


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 06:19:25 AM
To be fair, the patch this morning is clearly an emergency fix patch, which you can't blame Mythic for.  However, you can certainly blame Mythic for pushing out a patch too early on Thursday morning when they strolled into work (which is exactly what they did).

Conversation was likely something like:
MBJ:  Did you guys finish the patch last night?
Lead Programmer:  Mostly, but
MBJ:  Put 'er up!
Lead Programmer:  Err....ok...

Ok ok, that's not fair.  It could have been the programmers saying everything was fine.  But you get the point.  Someone isn't being very smart here.

I could excuse a patch on thursday morning if it didn't fail horribly.  But when you do things like, say, forget to put a price on your new tradeskill item you're introducing, it's clear you rushed things, and a rushed patch on thursday is just  :ye_gods:.  Learn to wait until monday next time if you would please.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: rattran on October 10, 2008, 06:37:16 AM
Perhaps Mythic hired Gaute Godager  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: murdoc on October 10, 2008, 07:10:02 AM
Last night was easily the worst I've ever seen scenarios. My PC runs this game pretty damn good and it was a slide show. I finally just gave up.

Didn't help that the new Order tactic in Mourkain Temple is to get the artifact then have their Rune Priests run up to the front and cast their Master Rune in front of everyone.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 10, 2008, 07:15:06 AM
Last night was a mess.  The real fault is not having the elder servers up so we could bang on the new patch for a day.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Khaldun on October 10, 2008, 07:35:51 AM
See, weirdly, the T3 scenarios fired for the first time EVER on my server last night, and of course, as we all suspected, there were a fucking shitload of players ranks 22-31 who had been trying for about a week to get in. Not only did they pop, they popped constantly, with about a minute of downtime between them. And the people playing T2, where nothing but nothing but Phoenix Gate had popped for two weeks straight, said that all three scenarios were popping, clearly with some randomization of the selection.

My conclusion:

1) The code for scenario queueing had been bugged prior to Thursday.
2) Said bug is inconsistent across servers.
3) Said bug is probably the result of the complicated interaction of successive changes to the code for scenario queueing between late beta and now.
4) Whatever happened to said bug in the last patch fixed some servers and fucked others up gigantically.
5) Server queueing is tied to other subsystems in some complicated ways. For one, I think there's something truly weird about the location of the player at the time of joining the queues that has an effect on which scenarios you're placed into, and how the scenarios pop.
6) There were also bugs messing up performance in scenarios or whereever many players were gathered (I saw those too last night, but sporadically). These are probably independent.


Concern:

This reminds me a bit of how strange interactions between what should be separate subsystems really fucked SWG up royally for the first three months of live, at which point the devs introduced more things to fuck the game up.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 09:33:10 AM
I can now only queue up for one scenario at a time.

That is... what the fuck. What. The. Fuck.

Scratch that, right when I logged in, I could queue up for anything. Now that I've been in a scenario, I can only queue up for THAT ONE.

WHich is, goddamnit, Serpent's Passage.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 09:53:33 AM
Magically fixed itself, don't know how.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Hayduke on October 10, 2008, 10:00:02 AM
Last night on one of my servers I wasn't able to queue at all.  I'd press the button and there'd be no feedback whatsoever.  Switched servers and everything worked perfectly.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: slog on October 10, 2008, 10:01:39 AM
I would like to thank you all for your continued Beta testing.  I consider am buying this product in the March-April timeframe and I'm hoping all your testing efforts make for a better product for me to enjoy.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 11:58:50 AM
Well, the truth is, every patch seems to make things worse, so if you joined in April you likely would be alpha testing.

I kid.  Sort of.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Draegan on October 10, 2008, 12:35:57 PM
I had zero issues last night.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: murdoc on October 10, 2008, 01:37:59 PM
I had zero issues last night.

So... you did other stuff than play WAR?

I'm also experiencing the AoC effect. Game ran smoothly with almost no hiccups at launch and each patch it has steadily been getting worse with last night being almost unplayable in scenarios due to the video lag. :(


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: HaemishM on October 10, 2008, 01:41:09 PM
I had no problems with scenarios last night. They seemed to run fine with decent enough framerate.

I did have the problem with guilds below level 17 getting fucked in the ass by removing their use of the guild tavern. Now THAT is some douchenozzle bullshit.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Evildrider on October 10, 2008, 01:43:37 PM
That was always there though, I remember even seeing that in the guild reward list.  They pretty much just fixed a bug.  It sucks, sure.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 10, 2008, 01:47:35 PM
Apparently, i'm no longer in a guild, but im the guild leader, and still paying taxes.   

(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1614/awesomedance2qz8.gif)


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 02:42:20 PM
That's a pretty normal bug at this point. When a guild gains a level or things change while you're online, you won't be able to access the guild menu until you relaunch.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 02:44:41 PM
While Mythic is having a tough time patching thus far, this bit of news is very encouraging.  They ARE listening, they REALLY are!

Quote
As part of our ongoing effort to tweak Warhammer Online based on player play patterns, we are making some adjustments to the rate and manner of experience gain in certain parts of the game. We continually analyze the data from our in-game metrics tool and as a result, we  have made some changes to WAR.  These changes will ensure that you will see a noticeable improvement to the rate at which you gain experience in tiers 3 and 4.

We are currently in the planning stages for our next phase of experience enhancements, so expect more on this subject soon. In the meantime, we know these adjustments will make for an enhanced game experience in the later tiers as well as providing additional incentive for people to engage in open RvR action.  Again, please keep in mind that these changes are only the first step and we have some additional changes/improvements to open RvR that we can talk about next week.

Quest Experience Rewards

    * We have revised the experience awarded for completing quests in chapters 10 through 22.

New Repeatable Quests

    * We have added new repeatable PvE quests to all tier 3 chapters (chapters 10 through 14).
    * The new quests offered in chapters 10 and 11 may be completed twice each.
    * The new quests offered in chapters 12 and 13 may be completed three times each.
    * The new quests offered in chapter 14 may be completed four times each.

Skirmish RvR Experience

    * The experience earned for killing an enemy player in an RvR lake will be increased by +50%.

I'd like to think this has to do with schild's bile-fueled rants vomited in mark jacobs direction.  Well done sir!

Or perhaps it was just their in-game metric tools as they claim (in-game metric tools=their experience with attempting leveling a character up in their own game and thinking, "shit, this is slow.")

Seriously though, good for mythic.  Their stubbornness has worried me, but this is a very good sign.  Hopefully these changes are significant and help to get people through the t3 grind.



Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Khaldun on October 10, 2008, 02:49:58 PM
As a skeptic, I'll give Mythic this: they are really, really trying to be responsive to the significant issues that players are having in a really timely way. In some ways, I'd rather these kind of quick responses that occasionally screw up or overlook something than stony silence or happy-happy fanboi bullshit for months on end. In a way, I'll also give Blizzard some credit: they have put the screws to Mythic with the (I think incredibly deliberate) timing of the WotLK release. Mythic must know they have a month, no more, to make the game so "sticky" in social and game-mechanical terms that most of their subscribers will stay subscribed even if they turn their attention back to WoW. Right now, it's not sticky--I was pretty close to unsubbing three nights ago--but good for Mythic that they know it, understand it, and they're working at it. It must be almost more frantic at their offices now than it was in the three or four weeks before launch.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 10, 2008, 02:52:39 PM
Please post it.  In a spoiler if it is too big.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 02:56:52 PM
While Mythic is having a tough time patching thus far, this bit of news is very encouraging.  They ARE listening, they REALLY are!

Quote
As part of our ongoing effort to tweak Warhammer Online based on player play patterns, we are making some adjustments to the rate and manner of experience gain in certain parts of the game. We continually analyze the data from our in-game metrics tool and as a result, we  have made some changes to WAR.  These changes will ensure that you will see a noticeable improvement to the rate at which you gain experience in tiers 3 and 4.

We are currently in the planning stages for our next phase of experience enhancements, so expect more on this subject soon. In the meantime, we know these adjustments will make for an enhanced game experience in the later tiers as well as providing additional incentive for people to engage in open RvR action.  Again, please keep in mind that these changes are only the first step and we have some additional changes/improvements to open RvR that we can talk about next week.

Quest Experience Rewards

    * We have revised the experience awarded for completing quests in chapters 10 through 22.

New Repeatable Quests

    * We have added new repeatable PvE quests to all tier 3 chapters (chapters 10 through 14).
    * The new quests offered in chapters 10 and 11 may be completed twice each.
    * The new quests offered in chapters 12 and 13 may be completed three times each.
    * The new quests offered in chapter 14 may be completed four times each.

Skirmish RvR Experience

    * The experience earned for killing an enemy player in an RvR lake will be increased by +50%.

I'd like to think this has to do with schild's bile-fueled rants vomited in mark jacobs direction.  Well done sir!

Or perhaps it was just their in-game metric tools as they claim (in-game metric tools=their experience with attempting leveling a character up in their own game and thinking, "shit, this is slow.")

Seriously though, good for mythic.  Their stubbornness has worried me, but this is a very good sign.  Hopefully these changes are significant and help to get people through the t3 grind.

Wrong ANSWER, Mythic.

1-22 is fucking fine.

23-40? Nightmare. NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHTMARE.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 02:58:10 PM
wait

he says this helps with t3 and t4

but those chapters are oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh

i see

this doesn't help with t4 even a little tiny bit

ok

my keyboard is broken with stupid

also, bullshit solution, just cut exp in half plz


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: pxib on October 10, 2008, 02:59:36 PM
Every single patch has improved performance for me. I can turn the sound on now, framerate has improved, and I haven't had a screen freeze, graphic glitch, or crash to desktop in more than a week. So whatever is screwing up your game is making mine work.

Which is probably a bad sign.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 03:03:55 PM
Quote

this doesn't help with t4 even a little tiny bit

Well it helps questing in t4!  But I suppose the idea is that by funneling people into t4 faster, the players will be able to create enough content for each other that people won't feel so much of a grind to 40.  You can take part in all of the fun end game open rvr stuff just by getting to t4 (right?), although you might be a little gimpy.  So no big deal.  Just getting more people into t4 seems to be the most important part.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 03:04:43 PM
Quests in t4 give like 6k exp. There's no way to NOT feel the grind for the first few levels.

Also, the scenarios are  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 03:07:30 PM
Perhaps they will give significantly more now.  We'll have to wait and see how big of a change this is.  Regardless, I'd like to see how the open RVR end game plays out when lots of people are involved.  That's the meat of this game IMO.  I'm happy with that coming faster, and also very interested in the changes coming to RvR in the next few weeks.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 10, 2008, 03:10:26 PM
So wait, the big improvement is letting you do the same quest 3-4 times over before you have to move on?


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 03:14:51 PM


Quote
    * We have revised the experience awarded for completing quests in chapters 10 through 22.

This is the part I'm assuming will be a good sized quest XP buff.  I could be wrong.  That repeatable quest part is just...yeah, well, unless they give some decent rewards pretty meh.  The 50% buff to Open RvR kill experience should be decent as well.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Nija on October 10, 2008, 03:16:24 PM
50% in the RVR lakes is fucking huge.

Keep sieges here I come.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 10, 2008, 03:20:17 PM
There has been one time that I have found a descent xp in RvR.  +50% would have made it good.  But mostly its empty or zerged.  +50% to nothing is not so helpful.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: schild on October 10, 2008, 03:23:41 PM
Shoulda been +50% in scenarios. +50% in RvR isn't magically going to fill those lakes up.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 10, 2008, 03:27:28 PM
Ew.  No more forced scenario grinding kthx.  More equal incentive across the board yes please.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Goreschach on October 10, 2008, 04:14:58 PM
So is it time to start the 'What went wrong?' thread yet?


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Trippy on October 10, 2008, 05:34:13 PM
As a skeptic, I'll give Mythic this: they are really, really trying to be responsive to the significant issues that players are having in a really timely way.
They don't have any other choice. WotLK is launching shortly.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 10, 2008, 05:51:33 PM
So is it time to start the 'What went wrong?' thread yet?

I'm waiting at least till the free months start expiring and areas of the game turn into a ghost town.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Hawkbit on October 10, 2008, 06:31:32 PM
Mark, if you read this, please, for the love of all that is holy, realize that you can't reduce the grind in the game by putting in repeatable grind quests.  I'm serious. 

Cut the XP needed to level, increase XP in orvr and remove the grind repeatable quests. 

Look, you're even putting a limit on how many times a player can even do each of those quests - doesn't that strike you as an unneeded step in the leveling process?

I applaud some of the changes you're going with, but damn man, that's not the right answer. 

Signed,

Stuck at 25. 


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: rk47 on October 10, 2008, 06:51:03 PM
Imo, they're not really thinking this through and just going into panic mode. RvR lakes? Wtf? Are you trying to reward players by mindlessly camping a secured BO flag over and over in the RvR zone for a CORE server? It's boring and once you've levelled past that tier, you're dog food till you're 2-3 levels higher and unlock better abilities and gear. Oh, guess what Mythic, Open RVR has no bolster for RvR lakes, so the lower tier gets screwed by the tier above them. All the time. No wonder in my time levelling my toon in Tier 1 Open RVR I kept seeing destro riding horses kiling shit in Empire T1 RvR. Why not really? I'd done the same if I were them. You got mobiliy, gear, levels, and you can farm them for the turn in quest 10 kills whoopdedo. Capping BO also gives RP yay. Go Mythic Go.

Making questing easier doesn't magically remove the grind. Fuck they even got the EXP bolster wrong for the population imbalance. Quest turn in doesn't get booster, wtf? Are you telling me to PQ grind or Scenario kill spree just to take advantage of that? Cause with all these shopping list quest, go here take out 10 dark elf, go there, take out 10 wolves at T4, I don't see the EXP Booster improve me much during off-peak hours questing. Oh sorry, am I doing it wrong? Am I supposed to PVP to lvl? Then why the fuck is your PVE gear reward outshining the PVP so much with less effort?


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Phunked on October 10, 2008, 07:15:02 PM
You don't see the vision fucktards.

They envision a world where if you're unbalanced at a certain tier (knockback-less classes in t3) then you will just bend over and do the one scenario to death until you level because IT'S THEIR CONTENT AND IT'S AWESOME SO YOU MUST DO IT THE WAY THE WANT. No way in hell will you every try to go around that crap by doing PvE and then realize the PvE sucks and takes forever to level with. Play exactly how Mythic wnats you to, or gtfo and go to WoW.

With this sort of marketing strat, it is very clear that they will be very, very commercially successful. WoW killer and all.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Lantyssa on October 10, 2008, 07:38:48 PM
Why don't you tell him on their forums?


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Rasix on October 10, 2008, 07:39:50 PM
Maybe focus tests aren't such a good idea after all.  :awesome_for_real:

Still having fun. Haven't hit the unfun part yet. Hooray for the guild turtle?

Btw, anti-fanbois are just as annoying fanbois.  Someone's getting annoying. I won't say who.  

Not defending Mythic's response to all of this.  It's pretty poor.  But it's Mythic, we've seen this before.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Evildrider on October 10, 2008, 07:51:49 PM
Mark, if you read this, please, for the love of all that is holy, realize that you can't reduce the grind in the game by putting in repeatable grind quests.  I'm serious. 

Cut the XP needed to level, increase XP in orvr and remove the grind repeatable quests. 

Look, you're even putting a limit on how many times a player can even do each of those quests - doesn't that strike you as an unneeded step in the leveling process?

I applaud some of the changes you're going with, but damn man, that's not the right answer. 

Signed,

Stuck at 25. 

If you are stuck at 25 what are you doing?  Are you just doing pve?  I made it to 31 without even finishing one t3 area of quests.  Mind you I don't mind running scenario's alot though, and it in know way has felt like a grind to me.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 10, 2008, 08:06:48 PM
Maybe focus tests aren't such a good idea after all.  :awesome_for_real:

Still having fun. Haven't hit the unfun part yet. Hooray for the guild turtle?

Btw, anti-fanbois are just as annoying fanbois.  Someone's getting annoying. I won't say who.  

Not defending Mythic's response to all of this.  It's pretty poor.  But it's Mythic, we've seen this before.

*raises his hand*

in my defense though i get very very bored sometimes.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Rasix on October 10, 2008, 08:22:45 PM
Hah, I know you're a negative Nancy. I haven't forgotten AoC guild chat  ;D I did my fair share of bitching in that game also.

Not necessarily who I was referring to, but your candor is refreshing. 



Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Hawkbit on October 10, 2008, 09:53:01 PM

If you are stuck at 25 what are you doing?  Are you just doing pve?  I made it to 31 without even finishing one t3 area of quests.  Mind you I don't mind running scenario's alot though, and it in know way has felt like a grind to me.

Well, I'm not entirely stuck at 25.  I've done Chpt 10-12 in both Elf and Humans - I have goofy play hours and scenarios don't pop as often during the day.  I tend to play in multiple, short shifts over the day and that's really not conducive to big rvr times. 

I'm entirely confused as to how you're 31 and not out of quests, especially if you don't roll scenarios a lot.  Explain, please.  Anything to change the grrrrrriiiind would be awesome. 


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Evildrider on October 11, 2008, 12:23:26 AM
You misunderstand me.. I scenario alot.. but it doesn't feel like a grind to me is what I meant.  Probably because I used to play ALOT of FPS with the same damn map all the time.  lol.  I actually had fun in Tor, even when I didn't have a knockback, although knockback did it make it a bit more fun. 

The XP boosts are nice now too.. I mean if you do say, Tor, and grab the quest for that and the kill player quest you are pretty much getting like another 6-7k on top of what you get in scenario.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Azazel on October 11, 2008, 07:31:36 AM
I really hope they get it right, but threads like these simply illustrate why I haven't started yet, and don't intend to until WotLK hits the boring wall for me. Which will likely be in the first quarter of 2009 at the earliest.

The release of every MMOG that's not WoW has been a right royal clusterfuck. The release of WoW wasn't fucked per se, but they definately had their share of problems for months with server lag, freezes, and of course the queuedance. Before then, the week any EQ1 expansion pack was released, the game was a crashy, buggy mess. LOTRO seemed ok, technically, mostly.

So with this all in mind, expecting WAR to be a smooth and perfect launch was a little, let's say.. hopeful. But as a longtime MMO player and a longertime Warhammer player, I'm hoping they can work the bugs out, get past most of the technical and balance bugs in this paid beta period, and will have a pretty good game that's not especially grindy, is stable and able to do simple things like alt-tab without CTD. I bought a CE each for my wife and myself. I want the game to be at a point where I'd choose to pay for it before I crack them open and install them. If not, I'd hope I can make my money back from the limited edition excitingness of them to some Warhammer fanbois.

But a MMO on release? Not for me anymore. Ok, I'd trust Blizzard, but that's it.



Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 11, 2008, 07:46:01 AM
I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: rk47 on October 11, 2008, 07:56:46 AM
I think the devs severely overrated their own scenarios. I mean fuck, at the current rate of EXP reward and requirements for T4 levels, i think it'll take me almost 70-90 scenario wins just to level from RvR. It's not healthy, I tell ya. Even my friend whom I introduced to the game went bonkers after finishing T1 doing nothing but Nordenwatch. He gave PQ a try and told me it reminded him of grinding (we cant' finish it with just two of us anyway, what's the point?) , he tried questing and found it dull (It's like a shitty WoW, dude!) since he got no mount. So we login, me on my runepriest and he's on bright wizard. We just sat at the warcamp, picking our noses while waiting for Morkaine to pop. That's all there to it.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Phunked on October 11, 2008, 07:59:58 AM
Hah, I know you're a negative Nancy. I haven't forgotten AoC guild chat  ;D I did my fair share of bitching in that game also.

Not necessarily who I was referring to, but your candor is refreshing. 



It's me you hate isn't it.

I say it like it is though. Say it like it is.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: trias_e on October 11, 2008, 08:01:07 AM
I was thinking this game was robot jesus after the end of t1.  That's probably because all the pqs and open rvr were actually, you know, populated.  The problem your friend is having sounds like the easily forseeable problem of t1-2 being ghost towns after launch.  Or he just doesn't like the game.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Azazel on October 11, 2008, 05:13:17 PM
I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.

It was laggy, and sometimes the servers came down. But the actual client was smooth, didn't CTD, and with the exception of the rare broken quest or world server crash, I didn't have any issues playing it at all. With WoW, the grind was so heavily disguised that it felt like I was always going somewhere new and adventuring as I levelled up. I certainly wasn't repeating the same content in the same place to grind to the next level.



Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: slog on October 11, 2008, 07:28:26 PM
I'd say this game is better than WoW was at relaese tbh, but our standards for a good MMORPG release are always on the rise.  Well, our realistic standards I should say.  When WoW came out, it was technically worse than WAR, server stability was worse than WAR, and there were no battlegrounds and PvP was meaningless.  The only thing it did better was the solo grind to max level, which it did and will always do substantially better.

It was laggy, and sometimes the servers came down. But the actual client was smooth, didn't CTD, and with the exception of the rare broken quest or world server crash, I didn't have any issues playing it at all. With WoW, the grind was so heavily disguised that it felt like I was always going somewhere new and adventuring as I levelled up. I certainly wasn't repeating the same content in the same place to grind to the next level.



What's the point in comparing WAR to WoW 4 years ago?  Isn't WAR competing against WoW as it is today?  Do we have to wait 4 years before WAR fixes all it's issues?


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: rk47 on October 11, 2008, 08:16:57 PM
Eh that's a pretty fair point imo. I think Mythic should really delay the game a bit longer before releasing (I blame EA). Yes the PVP is fun, but the grind isn't. Especially when most of you abilities are tied to levels and map varieties are really lacking. I think people will suffer a burn out at T3 if all they keep doing is Tor Anroc.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Azazel on October 12, 2008, 06:34:24 PM
What's the point in comparing WAR to WoW 4 years ago?  Isn't WAR competing against WoW as it is today?  Do we have to wait 4 years before WAR fixes all it's issues?

Of course they're competing with WoW as it stands today. I wasn't talking about that aspect though.

I was talking about release issues that MMOs invariably have and not playing WAR yet to give them time to patch them out and get the game running decently (before I start paying to be playing).


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 12, 2008, 06:53:39 PM
Seems that there is a lot more T3 RvR this week end.  Maybe the +50% really did help.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: UnSub on October 12, 2008, 08:39:23 PM
(I blame EA)

Mark Jacobs' on AoC launching when it did (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/09/02/mythic-vp-on-hellgate-and-age-of-conan/):

Quote
“When they looked at ['Age of Conan'] when they were ready to launch, I can’t imagine how they didn’t see the issues that other people saw. According to their annual reports, they had plenty of money. They should’ve looked at it and said, ‘We need to delay this game.’ There are probably reasons I’m not aware of… but I think that’s their biggest sin.”

How many times was WAR delayed?

I'm all for bashing the publisher when they do something stupid, but EA held off launching WAR several times and if Jacob's is going to chat about the other competition launching too soon, he needs to take the criticism about that potentially happening for his title too.



Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Wasted on October 12, 2008, 08:53:21 PM
I was thinking this game was robot jesus after the end of t1.  That's probably because all the pqs and open rvr were actually, you know, populated.  The problem your friend is having sounds like the easily forseeable problem of t1-2 being ghost towns after launch.  Or he just doesn't like the game.

The turning point for me was when I hit level 12 and still had tonnes of teir one quests to do, and that was just in the one race area, I hadn't even barely touched the other two except to explore the rvr areas and battlecamps.  Not being able to do scenarios while questing just made the pve seem so much worse than it probably is.  So I skipped the rest of the quests and the completist/questor in me switched off.  Now I have no connection to the lore and the land and I'm wondering why the hell this is really a MMO and not just a lobby and scenario deal only with the keep areas being implemented as some type of long running scenario. That the majority of the quests quickly become, 'make sure you don't miss this PQ and this PQ' makes it all feel more shallow as well to me.
That all the 'extraneous' things that make it world like Mail and AH are laggy at best, and not working half the time further divorce me from the world.

I probably wont be subbing past the first month.  I have fun in scenarios but I don't really feel a connection with my main.  I would probably alt more, I don't mind playing through the t1 scenarios with different classes to try them again, but going through the same early quests got tedious, and I did feel the pressure to pick a class and progress otherwise I would miss out on leveling with 'the pack'.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: UnSub on October 12, 2008, 09:26:36 PM
I love the quests that take you to the PQ.

I hate finding those PQs completely empty.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Tmon on October 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM

The PQs in Tier 1 were fairly decently populated and I finished most of them with groups I found within minutes of logging in.   In tier 2 I think I completed 2 PQs.  The rest I just ground until I could pick up the influence rewards.  I just wandered into tier 3 land and I'm not sure I really want to do any PVE at all but I keep reading that the best PVP gear is not available otherwise.  If the only way I can continue to be productive in PVP is to grind out 10,000 more influence at 100 points a pop then I'm done on the 20th.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Khaldun on October 13, 2008, 05:52:31 AM
Tier 3 PQs never, ever attract spontaneous groups. It's guild groups or nothing. In fact, nothing about the gameworld is spontaneous from Tier 3 onward.

I agree that it's also increasingly baffling to me why this is a world at all. The economy doesn't matter, and if it did, the painfully bad AH interface might be important but as it stands it's irrelevant. The world itself is even less dynamic and responsive than WoW's, which is saying something--particularly because there's some reason to think that it could be, if they had implemented RvR in a very "world-like" manner. I normally read quests and find their details interesting: I don't think I've read a quest since level 1, really. None of them have any twists, their stories don't matter, and the mobs are all more or less identical. I don't think I've seen any mob behavior that mattered at all, and the name or type of the mob makes no difference: a level 27 peasant is the same fight as a level 27 warrior, which is really just a complicated variation on having to kill butterflies and rats. It's a dead, dead world that occasionally comes to life because live people show up and play against you.

RvR on my server is very weird: it comes to life for brief periods of intensity and then it dies again. Because WAR isn't a world and has such a narrow base of satisfying gameplay, if things are popping either in the world RvR or in scenarios, that's somewhat fun. If that's not happening, it's boring as hell. Since you can't predict, at least on my server, when the former condition is in play, you have a lot of boring to do while waiting for the unpredictable fun to start. In WoW, if one thing isn't happening, there's usually another thing to do. Even going shopping on the AH is kind of fun in WoW for twinking alts; for WAR even that's pointless.

With open-world RvR, another problem I see is that people are *so* hungry for it that when Order does initiate something, they often get steamrolled because swarms of Destro players show up hoping for a long, fun battle. About 15 Order players methodically turned the RvR objectives in T3 Avelorn and moved to the keep yesterday; meanwhile an alliance of 6 Destro guilds was assembling at the warcamp, about 25 players strong. We got to them just as they started with the battering ram, and they were more or less one-shotted. They gave up and went to do other things. A couple of crumbs when everyone was hoping for a meal, and I think partly because the incentive to stay and try to fight is so lacking--what would they get if they somehow managed to succeed? You can do without access to renown gear because it's so poorly itemized, and renown training only needs to be done once in a blue moon anyway.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Phunked on October 13, 2008, 11:52:45 AM
Tier 3 PQs never, ever attract spontaneous groups. It's guild groups or nothing. In fact, nothing about the gameworld is spontaneous from Tier 3 onward.

I agree that it's also increasingly baffling to me why this is a world at all. The economy doesn't matter, and if it did, the painfully bad AH interface might be important but as it stands it's irrelevant. The world itself is even less dynamic and responsive than WoW's, which is saying something--particularly because there's some reason to think that it could be, if they had implemented RvR in a very "world-like" manner. I normally read quests and find their details interesting: I don't think I've read a quest since level 1, really. None of them have any twists, their stories don't matter, and the mobs are all more or less identical. I don't think I've seen any mob behavior that mattered at all, and the name or type of the mob makes no difference: a level 27 peasant is the same fight as a level 27 warrior, which is really just a complicated variation on having to kill butterflies and rats. It's a dead, dead world that occasionally comes to life because live people show up and play against you.

RvR on my server is very weird: it comes to life for brief periods of intensity and then it dies again. Because WAR isn't a world and has such a narrow base of satisfying gameplay, if things are popping either in the world RvR or in scenarios, that's somewhat fun. If that's not happening, it's boring as hell. Since you can't predict, at least on my server, when the former condition is in play, you have a lot of boring to do while waiting for the unpredictable fun to start. In WoW, if one thing isn't happening, there's usually another thing to do. Even going shopping on the AH is kind of fun in WoW for twinking alts; for WAR even that's pointless.

With open-world RvR, another problem I see is that people are *so* hungry for it that when Order does initiate something, they often get steamrolled because swarms of Destro players show up hoping for a long, fun battle. About 15 Order players methodically turned the RvR objectives in T3 Avelorn and moved to the keep yesterday; meanwhile an alliance of 6 Destro guilds was assembling at the warcamp, about 25 players strong. We got to them just as they started with the battering ram, and they were more or less one-shotted. They gave up and went to do other things. A couple of crumbs when everyone was hoping for a meal, and I think partly because the incentive to stay and try to fight is so lacking--what would they get if they somehow managed to succeed? You can do without access to renown gear because it's so poorly itemized, and renown training only needs to be done once in a blue moon anyway.

You can get both at your capital city anyways, which makes the keeps rather useless as it stands.

Not to mention that holding one is insanely costly for no real reason. Hi2u money sink? In a game where money doesn't matter at all? What the hell are they doing with that anyways. Why even bother to have currency when the only thing you can do with it is dump it away mindlessly.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: HRose on October 14, 2008, 07:34:29 AM
Regardless, I'd like to see how the open RVR end game plays out when lots of people are involved.  That's the meat of this game IMO.
If it continues like this, it will never happen.

Or it will happen to those who endure to reach the level cap.

Someone doesn't see this as DAoC all over again? It's a different grind, but it's also a similar one.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Vinadil on October 14, 2008, 07:39:14 AM
It is different as in 1/10 as long.  So, yea, I can see a few more people going through it.  I am part of a rather casual guild, and the majority of our playerbase is nearing 28.  28 IS the End-Game.  You have access to all of the T4 content by then, especially the RvR stuff.  And, if casual players can get near 28 in 3 weeks?  Well, I would say that is a pretty low grind.  Honestly, it is the people taking LONGER to level that are generally reporting more fun on our server (Ostermark) because population balance is better for them.

Add to that the fact that End-game PvP will run Very well even if you only have ~200 per side playing in T4, and the question becomes not "will the game be fun at T4", but "can they still make money with the number of people still playing".  Honestly I hope our server DOES drop in pop.  If all of the people playing from T1-4 were to end up in T4... I don't think the servers could handle it.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 14, 2008, 07:58:41 AM
I think the burn out would less if T1-T3 RvR was even 80% as rewarding as scenerios.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Khaldun on October 14, 2008, 08:54:57 AM
Order on our server has started exclusively queueing for Black Fire Basin because they have a significant advantage when the scenario involves static defense (heavy use of engineering stuff around the flag so that they don't have to constantly watch for someone trying to take it from the rear while a big attack wave comes in the front) plus their defending wall is superior to Destruction's in that scenario. Destruction understandably hates Black Fire Basin, and not just because they have a disadvantage--because the smart play is to turtle down in response to Order turtling, and then hope to have a few more kills if and when they come to try and grab the Destro flag.

So that's pretty much it for T3 last couple of nights. No open-world RvR, just a few rounds of Black Fire Basin before Destro players take it off their queue list and then nobody has any for the rest of the night.

Unless that changes? The end.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Nebu on October 14, 2008, 08:55:26 AM
I think the burn out would less if T1-T3 RvR was even 80% as rewarding as scenerios.

Huge increases in gear drop rates and xp/rp gains in world rvr would go a long way to provide variety.  Sport pvp is fun in small doses, but not enough to keep people interested.  The pvp scenarios quickly feel like any other xp grind in the game after you've done them enough.  It's really a problem.  


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Righ on October 14, 2008, 09:43:49 AM
Destruction understandably hates Black Fire Basin

On Ulthuan at T3 everybody queues for Tor Anroc, and anything else is likely to fail due to lack of Order participation. There's really no option but to do the same scenario because everything else usually ends after a minute due to Order not making the numbers. Also, its a simple scenario, Destro enjoys a terrain advantage, and Order enjoys a punt advantage (provided they can find some tanks). So its easily winnable by both, and its usually either because of a guild team on one side, level imbalance or career match-up lottery.

Destruction loves Black Fire Basin and anything other than Tor Anroc, because its a certain victory due to lack of Order participation and a chance to clear those pesky quests. Either the scenario will close after a minute, or enough Order stragglers will slowly join (usually level 21/22s who don't know better or who want to clear those pesky quests) to keep the game open and Destro can continue to farm kills at the Order spawn for a few minutes more.

Given how much effort presumably went into making all these scenarios its a shame that the overall implementation is so awful.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Lantyssa on October 14, 2008, 11:02:10 AM
Yeah, had a group with my guild and we were severely outranked in Black Fire Basin.  They were standing at the base of the spawn hill farming us.  It was really bad.  Tor Anaroc was the only map we did decently on, because of the punting.  Which is fun, but I imagine highly frustrating for the puntees.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Vinadil on October 14, 2008, 11:03:36 AM
It is funny to see how different each server is... on our server Doomfist, The cemetary, and The Isha Temple are the 3 that pop most.  Tor Anroc pops every often... the other 2 not at all.

Of course our groups always just use the "queue all" button.  So, I suppose those people who are choosing particular scenarios are actually deciding.  Strange how even among the factions the choice of scenario changes depending on the server.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Khaldun on October 14, 2008, 11:07:22 AM
I really really think the queues may be bugged somehow, both in what pops and in whether it does.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: tazelbain on October 14, 2008, 11:21:51 AM
There really should be only one queue per tier.  And what scenario you choose is your vote.  Proportioned to the votes, random roll selects which one pops.  So if 30% vote Mourkain, then Mourkain has a 30% chance of being the one that pops.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Tmon on October 14, 2008, 12:53:46 PM
I think the burn out would less if T1-T3 RvR was even 80% as rewarding as scenerios.

Yeah, I have a blast in non-scenario  RVR when I can find some going on.  I've scaled back my playing and stopped worrying about keeping up with those folks that are powering through the game faster than I am.  I've gotten back in touch with my inner ADD and started trying random crap just to see if it unlocks something.  It has cut down on my leveling speed but I am liking the game again.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: kZZZ on October 22, 2008, 10:57:21 AM
Sentences get capitalized.


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: Signe on October 23, 2008, 02:35:20 PM
Sentences get capitalized.

What?  ALL of them???


Title: Re: Someone forgot to tell Marc Jacobs...
Post by: SuperPopTart on October 23, 2008, 07:28:51 PM
I sooo want to write a letter to Mythic.

But I won't cause the idiots can't even manage to answer their damn CSR Appeals.