f13.net

Just got an email from Amazon offering me a free Kindle trial (presumably they're doing it for Prime members).  I get to play with one for 30 days, and only if I keep it will they charge me.  Likewise, any books I buy (up to $50 worth) will be refunded to me if I decide not to keep the thing.

Shouldn't pouring money into the purse of a near monopolistic retail juggernaut make me feel bad?  'Cause really, I love dealing with these guys.

I would love a kindle, but not for $300-400. 

The Kindle is awsome for people who are voracious readers, like my SO. She can plow through a four hundred page book in a weekend. Previous to her getting a Kindle, we had mountains of paperbacks everywhere. Now, she's not bought an actual book in months.

A Kindle would be wasted on me, however, since I read slowly, most of the time just enough to get me to doze off at night.

I think it's awful for people who are voracious readers.

I lend and trade books with friends, and we all read way, way too many books to buy every single one. I often hunt around discount books and get books from swap meets and libraries; if I were to purchase every one on a kindle, my 'habit' would be more than my utility bill. Also, since I read mostly paperbacks, the pricing on books @ $10 is more expensive than the actual print edition. Plus, of course, the kindle itself is $400. And locked into their system. And contains restrictive DRM. And won't sync with my computer. And won't use my wifi.

I do have quite a lot of ebooks, however, because of the aforementioned 'book pile' problem, and if there were additional products on the market that would let me read them in bed or away from a laptop or computer, that would make me happy. I don't care for the sony one, but I expect more to be around in the future. I'm just waiting for the right one, and I can tell you the kindle ian't it.

Huh?  Last I read you could sync the Kindle to your computer and you could put your ebooks (on pdf at least) on it to read.

To me, even more than music and games, the written word is about physical medium. The weight of a hardcover. The smell of pages. Maybe it's because I grew up in libraries, and have the old fantasy reader/gamer's romance with stacks of dusty tomes. Maybe its because when I try to read on my computer for long periods of time, my eyes start to burn and I find myself more easily distracted.

I have a lot of RPG supplements only in PDF format, but - like Gamersgate and GOG games - I mainly do that because I can find obscure and out-of-print stuff for cheap. Every Al-Qadim supplement for $6 each? Hell yes. The latest Charles Stross novel or John Keegan tome? I'll wait for hardcopy.

Side track: When the hell is Amazon going to using PayPal, anyway? For a company that's supposed to represent the future of shopping, they sure seem wedded to the payment models of the previous century.

You're all old school  :awesome_for_real:

Kindle is as close as we've gotten to a "book replacement" device in my view. It's not quite there yet, but the big leap was three fold:

1. E-Ink technology. This is basically molecules on a page manipulated per "pixel". Unlock an LCD screen, this does not use as-bright-as-possible light to make white. It uses the whiteness of whatever substrate the molecules are "printed" on. So it's VERY easy on the eyes. Sony's e-reader uses the same tech.

2. Battery life. Due to how E-ink works, you basically "set" the molecules once and then use a very small power supply to ensure they stay there. This too is unlike LCDs where, like monitors, you're constantly telling it what to do.

3. Screen size. They can get much bigger screens for much less of the cost ramp up associated with LCDs.

There's a lot of applications for this technology, but last time I jerked around with it, it was expensive as heck. And color is even more so. It's good stuff, and in fact may replace organic LEDs someday. But the benefit right now is for the e-readers.

The Kindle isn't running on an LCD screen.  It's digital ink, which granted, I have no idea what that means, but it's practically indistinguishable from staring at paper.

To each his own, but I won't touch PayPal with a ten foot pole.  For that matter, I try not to touch anything eBay-related with a ten foot pole with the exception of Skype, and even then I'm conflicted about it.

You guys also know that not every book is $10, right?  That's the upper limit on pricing.  It'll also be damned nice getting the Wall Street Journal delivered electronically every day, as well as a shitload of blogs.

This is a lot more than just an ebook.

What the hell is a Kindle ?

Isn't it the chap pursuing the One Armed Man ?

See above your post :-) I pre-emptively answered the tech question I wasn't sure would ever come up, because I love the potential of e-ink enough so I didn't even care if the tech question ever game up. Of course, ithey've past through the few years I thought it'd take them to get to side-scrolling-adventure-game phase too.

I like my Sony E-Reader.

(http://www.rochester.edu/College/translation/threepercent/images/37.jpg)

The Kindle was my second choice but the damn thing was just far too ugly.

I've been a Prime member for a couple of years now, I hope they offer this to me! I'd like to check it out before putting down 350 big ones ..

I'd love to get one, but I'm not paying $400 to be locked into a Kindle. I want to be able to read whatever file I want on it.

The Sony E-reader is slick as fuck and is amazing. It looks like paper. I dunno why I'd want one but it's cool looking like most Sony products.

I'm holding out for the next generation of this technology (the e-ink stuff is very readable, definitely competitive with dead tree books), and for something with less lock-in and drm.

As I watch stupid centralized drm systems continue to fail, locking people out of the stuff they bought (see the walmart music thing for the latest example), I remain convinced that I will not pay money for content that I have no control over.  CDs work well because I get a physical disc and can easily pull the data off of it.  Books aren't trivially ripable, but at least they don't take the book back at some unspecified time in the future or prevent me from loaning or selling it.

Here's what would sell me on a kindle or the like -- give me a deal where I pay the hardcover price on the day the book is released, I immediately get the electronic version on my reader, and then get a softcover copy when that goes to print.  I get the instant gratification, portability, and easy access, as well as a real physical book to own.  The publisher gets instant cash.

I like books.

The library did the ebook thing years ago. The pseudo-tech people were all abuzz. I thought it sucked balls. We had two readers, they circed like mad. So (against my advice) we god a third. Interest died off after a month and now they sit in a closet, all the books we bought for them might as well not exist.

I'm a fucking luddite.

I like books.

Curious, but why do you always bring this up?  What's so special about PayPal?

It works, even outside the US.

I'm with Storm. For me it's because I've recently ditched my credit cards for the remainder of my college term, so for me it's about being able to draw funds from my bank and pay that way. A lot easier to keep track of my spending too because it shows up on my bank statement, paypal and I even have time to re-think my purchase because of the lag time.

I don't have credit cards, and now I can't get them. Since I'm an American living in Canada on a work visa, neither US nor Canadian banks will give me one.

When I was in the US, I used a Visa credit/debit card connected to my BoA account. I still have it, but it's difficult to use - transferring money from my Canadian bank account to BoA takes 10 days minimum. Also, the bank charges fees for using it at vendors outside the US.

I make a huge number of purchases over the internet, and 90% of them (computer and paper games, CDs, imported anime paraphernalia) go through PayPal. Log in, glance over the payment data, hit send money, done. Quick and easy, and draws direct from my bank account. No messing about with double-payments (using the card to pay, then paying the card issuer).

I assume a paypal debit card is out of the question?

Can't get them outside the US.

Oh, and: 666th post  :rock:

Try getting a canadian bank account and then getting a credit card through that bank.  That's what I did when I went to work in AU and had no issues getting a CC.   You won't get as much credit as you would with a US credit card (since credit ratings are national not international) but you should be able to get A credit card.

I tried that over four years ago. They said no.

Trust me, I've looked into this. There are two ways I could get a credit card. One is to get permanent residency (takes 18+ months and costs upwards of $1800 in fees and expenses), the other is a bank that will give you a card with a $2K limit if you give them $2K up front. While I've had $2K in the last few years, it was in retirement plans or a savings account accruing interest.

They don't sell prepaid debit cards there?  You can walk into any wal-mart, mall, porno shop, etc with cash and walk out with a prepaid visa or MC in minutes around here.

Edit: Theres got to be a site that sells prepaid credit cards in any amount and takes paypal, the internet is too big for someone not to have jumped on that.

My iPod Touch can do e books, as can my Palm Tungsten E2.
Kindle is mostly oohed and ahhed over because Amazon released it.

Get back to me with how long your iPod lasts with the backlight constantly on.  And a Palm?  Puhleeze.

Both are good devices.  Neither are ebook readers, and weren't intended to be.

(http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/11/Sony_v_AMZN_opener.jpg)

I'm not sure I have to say anything. The Sony one is a Marvel, Amazon is pretty great but I'm waiting for the second revision. They're giving a 30 day demo option simply because the eReader market isn't the greatest of markets and it's something Sony doesn't do with theirs. Both are total, total luxuries. Whenever Amazon does something like this though, they get something of the Apple effect, where people buy the product whether or not it's good or revolutionary in any way.

The only + to the Kindle is the over the air access to the store through the Sprint EVDO network. That said, it's not worth trading the sleekness and size of the sony for Amazon's horrid nasty horrendous design.

I'm puzzled by the shitty keyboard. In that amount of space you could've dropped a small qwerty with square keys rather than those 'stylish' buttons.

It's so that people older than 18 can figure things out and buy books from the Amazon/Sprint service. Mostly though, the entire thing is a victim of bad design in plastic.

I actually find the Kindle barelly big enough to comfortably hold and I love the long page turn button on the right.  The scroll wheel is also good. The keyboard is arguably a waste of space since I just don't use it that often any more - but when I want to I can. I used to buy books directly from the Kindle, but now I just buy them at Amazon.com for the Kindle and they download the next time I turn on the wireless.  The e-book model wouldn;t work for me at all without the wireless downloading though. I would find manually connecting the Sony to my PC annoying.

Lastly, the Kindle gives newspaper and magazine access. Does the Sony do that?  I get the WSJ for $10 a month. Reading the paper on the train on the Kindle > floding an actual paper all over the place. No more turning from A1 to A15 to finish a story.

I have books dated from the 50s and earlier. There's no way Kindle / Kindle DRM is going to be working and available in 2050. The only long term problem i face is the binding falling apart and yellowing pages.

The Sony has no wireless features to speak of. But I only use my EReader for novels while I'm lying in bed or at a restaurant for lunch, etc. I'm sure for some people the Kindle is more useful, but as an everyday device the design is just too horrid.


This is a stupid point to make and in no way what any discussion about an EReader should be about. But if you really want to go there, you try carrying around 200 books, see what happens. I flip flop between what I read and carrying more than one book at any given time is a nuisance since if I'm reading paper, it's a hardback.

Canadian banks are extremely stingy with credit, especially with anyone that has not lived in Canada from the day they were born.  It doesn't matter how much you earn or how many assets you have.

Unless you are a student, then they do not care how long you have been in the country.  Go figure.  Which is why there are so many University students from Hong Kong/China driving BMWs and living in Condos in the major cities.
 :awesome_for_real:

So it's an ok point when discussing gaming DRM, but not book DRM?  :oh_i_see:

Book DRM is ok, because publishers are good.

Game DRM is bad, because publishers are bad.


What part of this do you not understand?

True, but they are half the price or so, and do lots of other things.  And if we are going to a future where we never fucking OWN ANYTHING because its all easily lost 1s and 0s, we might as well have it cheaper and in all in one devices.

The zombie apocalypse cannot come soon enough I think. :(

My iPod lasted long enough for me to read a novel on the free Stanza e-book reader app, and still had juice left over.  The battery went from about 70% to about 20% in that time.  I'm a fast reader, though; the novel only took about four hours.  I also did some reading on Baen's free library site; that wound up taking a bigger toll since I was reading off of a website with corresponding wifi use.

I used to be interested in e-book readers.  Not $300+ interested, but watching in case they fell in price some day.  I'm not interested in them anymore.  The iPod fits in my nerd holster for constant carry, the display is amply good enough for reading text without any eye strain, the reader software is free and connects to online book repositories for free downloading of out-of-copyright books...  There is really no downside whatsoever for my needs.  Stanza can't read DRM-encrypted books, so I couldn't do stuff like buy Kindle files from Amazon to read on the iPod, but I think I can live with that.  (Plus, it's not like there are DRM-removal tools out there...   :oh_i_see:)

Please. If you love having a portable device, there's a good chance you're going to be near an outlet often enough to recharge it. The only it's a problem is in the sort of restaurant you wouldn't be reading it at anyway (others would give you an outlet... believe me, I know) and on an actual airplane (airports have outlets all over the place). The whole idea of battery life being the end all be all went out 15 years ago when laptops started doing more than being glorified PDAs.

The Sony device is better for younger demographics than the Amazon device, but they're both predicated on the same idea: tangible ownership is no longer a requirement. It's the same thing with movies and games. Hoarding a bunch of purchased media is a burden for those who don't want to dedicate the space to showcase it. And if you're married, in a house and don't have a whole room dedicated to your own private man-cave/office, you know exactly what I'm talking about. We want to have experiences, there are plenty of ways to continue doing so, and most of them don't forever require the one specific media they originated on. We don't have arcade machines in our houses, but play plenty of old arcade games. We don't all have zombie Nintendo 8-bits kicking around, but can still play them. Most of us probably don't have functioning turntables, but listen to music all the time.

tl;dr version: Netflix.

It's the experience that matters, not the media upon which it exists.

Now, THAT was some helpfull advice.

At least for me. :-)

You just destroyed your own point. The playstation is really the last console that you can do that with, and CDs are the last format that you'll be able to do that with.

Welcome to DRM. I hope you like the next big thing, because you won't ever get to enjoy the hits of a previous decade. Unless, of course, they were big enough hits that some exec thinks that you'll buy the game or song a second time on a new format, of course.

I don't think I'm going to be working and available in 2050 either. Kindle works for me now while I'm still breathing.

Whatever man. I would have maimed China with my bare hands to be able to load all my textbooks into something like a kindle in college.  You want to make college affordable? Sell text books in eFormat. I bought way to damn many $50+ *used* texts in the early 90's. I can't imagine what things are like now. Sell 'em at a Student rate and go for a swim in the cash.

To be honest, I agree. But compared to a mass market paperback? Give me a kindle and an eBook any day.

Err, no, that WAS my point. The idea of content ownership is why we have DRM. I'm talking about the idea of media ownership though. We're becoming media agnostic. Along the way people have realized they don't need to own that DVD or CD when they can just grab the song and movie from online/Netflix. And that's because the experience they want to have is about that moment, alone or with friends, not the braggning right of having that CD or DVD on their wall somewhere.

On DRM for a second, I get why people hate it. But I don't get how people don't connect that with all the stuff they've bought over the years for entire platforms that have gone defunct. It's probably because all of those old games can still be played... except of course that they're not played in the original format nor in the original way.

Try one generation later. And Moore's law along with the theory of Spanish Hackers Don't Want to Pay for Anything pretty much guarantees all future consoles will eventually be emulated also.

Bullshit. PS2 emulation is VERY 'meh' and I highly doubt the PS3 will be emulated at all thanks to the hypervisor.


I agree that we are moving towards subscription based rather than owned based content, in games, movies, and music. Companies are protecting these, let's call them what they really are, revenue streams, via weighty DRM. It's simple lock-in. I'm trying to explain to you all, who seem to think it's a good idea, why it is in fact a bad idea.

Extrapolate that a bit, and it takes no great stretch of the imagination to see that when the only way you can get content is through 'viewing' licensing wrapped around a very specific and secure service, there is no way to get at the bits of data for emulation, no way to develop emulation for those bits, and no way to distribute that emulation once you have it. You're trying to use emulation as an example of part of the "going to all-digital", and I'm telling you that is the one thing you will not have.

You'll be stuck with whatever modern streams will provide, and you will like it. What happens when you want to play those programs you downloaded via steam on windows xp, but now you're running windows 2020 and valve went out of business because they got sued into oblivion by the 'concerned citizens for social uplifting'?  You're fucked, that's what you are. Or, when a company that owns or buys the rights to an old but popular game and then sits on it, hoping to maybe remake it one day maybe? Since you can't legally distribute it, it won't be distributed via these streams that you are already locked into.


This all comes back to the kindle, because that is exactly the situation here. As unlikely as it sounds, let's play out a scenario. Let's say someone creates a device that emulates a book well enough, and provides features books don't (up-to-date content, convenience of huge libraries), call it the Kindle mk. 2. People will begin to switch. Let's say it becomes the next itunes for books. Eventually, due to printing costs, publishers decline to print 'dead tree' formats of many of the newest books. Then, gradually, all of them.

What happens when a book publisher has it out with kindle mk 2's content managers and they strip the content? There's no other way of getting it. What happens when "kindaloo" comes out and it's so much better that people want to switch, but it's a different company? Oh, they've lost their entire library. Don't think it can happen? Look at the battle between rock band and guitar hero - guitar hero has a pretty damn good shot of taking that particular crown. Look at HD-DVD. There are countless examples of why this should throw up red flags, even without getting into the paranoia of having a total monopoly of a single content portal from which all sorts of social manipulation can occur.

Problem with this is that textbooks are expensive, partly because they're not expected to sell in large numbers and partly because the audience they do have is fairly captive. The 'consumers' (lecturers) making the decisions aren't buying the books and so cost isn't a priority in deciding which book to put on the require reading list.

At the moment most students can get away with buying a copy a couple of years old from another student for half the price of a fresh one, quite a few publishers try to get round this by releasing a new edition every couple of years that by and large just changes the page references but replace textbooks with DRMed e-books and suddenly students all have to buy a fresh copy right off the bat. There's no second hand market.

Personally I love the sound of the technology, if there was a way of  introducing a universal file type for this and some form of DRM that permitted unlimited transfer requiring the original copy be deleted I think it would be really awesome. However I don't see any way of achieving the same level of balance between personal control and relative protection for publishers that we have in books. Of course the point about publishers no longer supporting formats is to some extent missing how much control publishers have over what you can read already from a practical standpoint. If you want to read an old book you own, whether on paper or ebook you can. If you lose your original copy then your ability to read it is limited by being able to get a copy regardless of format. If it's popular it'll have been reissued and you're fine. If not you're going to have to trawl auction and second hand shops to find a copy, or alternately trawl the net for an emulation or crack for it.