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The reviews were too good to pass up, so I went and picked the game up. While I drilled through the bugs (crash to desktop every ten minutes or so if I don't turn off the sound, fine if I do) I found I was enjoying myself. A lot. Then I went and tried some PvP, and I'm hooked. Specifically, this game is so substantially different from WoW (the last game I paid for) that it's a breath of fresh air.

If anything, gameplay reminds me of Guild Wars. Health and "energy" regenerate relatively quickly, buffs and debuffs must be frequently reapplied, downtime is almost nonexistant, and character skills have multiple purposes depending on circumstances. Pacing, even in PvE, is fast fast fast. Additionally, WoW is largely a soloer's game... WAR, like GW, is almost entirely about groups BUT UNLIKE THAT GAME it has all sorts of simple easy-to-use systems to faciliate joining groups with folks involved in whatever goal you're persuing: Regular quests, public quests, or RvR. The "open group" system even guesses what the group is doing (and is, I think, a lot more innovative and effective than the PQs.)

DAoC's RvR made PvP feel like we were "all in it together". WAR takes that ideal to PvE as well, and I think it succeeds.

Maybe the shine wears off after a few weeks... but this is a smart, well-made game. I'm having a ball.

What kind of sound card do you have?

I sorta remember hearing there is an issue if you have the creative eax or whatever it is checked in the sound options.

The topic of this post invalidates everything after.

WAR is like wow, a lot like wow. If you can't see or admit this nothing else you say counts.

Now, I will say war is good and has many things that help it stand out as not just a clone or wow but it's not apples and oranges here. More like, apples and granny smith apples. I do enjoy the tart taste of some fiery pvp myself but saying it's vastly different is well, insane.

Yeah, don't alt-tab and don't check the EAX option.

Eh, it's all relative I guess.  My grandma would say that WoW is exactly like street fighter.  I don't think it's the case that WAR is more like WoW than games like vanguard, LOTRO, AoC, etc.  In fact it's probably less like WoW than any of those, imho (AoC being pretty easily arguable there).  Obviously it's still a DIKU-style MMO and anyone not familiar with those MMOs wouldn't understand the difference, but if you consider the original statement as addressing people who play tons of MMOs, I think it is reasonable.

Man, it made me feel like "who the fuck are these people and why are computers so easy to turn on"

This.

The Everquest style of combat followed by downtime, which has been on its way out but is still largely present in WoW, is largely absent from WAR. Energy regeneration sets a pace rather than enforcing sequence of pauses. Characters live or die based on how they manage that pace, not just on how fresh they were at the start of a fight, or how many cooldowns they've left unspent.

In World of Warcraft two theoretically opposing sides with identical character classes experience a guided series quests largely related to their own internal problems. They share a single endgame related to common threats. In WAR, every single quest and storyline guides players towards the fundamental conflict between two non-identical sides... which, in turn, defines the endgame.

PvP fosters animosity between player. DAoC's RvR focused all of that fury and frustration away from the people you were playing with and towards the people you're playing against. It efforts to keep angry players from shitting where they eat. As angry as you might be at your own lousy healers or inept DPS, what you're really upset about is how overpowered that Sorceress is. In WoW, again, both sides are identical. If somebody screws up in PvP it's because they're bad at their class... because the other side just plays those same classes better. In WAR (as in DAoC) your side might still suck, but in all likelyhood you blame the OTHER side.

When I see other folks doing the same quest I am, there is very little reason not to invite them. In WoW there are a lot of gathering quests where adding people damages an already anemic drop rate... I have not run into those in WAR. Gear also explicitly belongs to a specific class, so playing a loot ninja doesn't gain particular advantage. Things just go faster and more efficiently in a group. If I see another group at a public quest or in RvR, either group can convert to a warband and INVITE THE ENTIRE OTHER GROUP. Now... somebody min-maxing for fastest possible influence/realm rank/experience gain might prefer soloing, but WAR punishes those min-maxers by robbing them of lower tier content and conflict.

The game is rich with possibilities at every level, so long as there are people around to share it with you. Like a lot of other people I'm concerned that once everyones' "mains" have advanced to the endgame things may get quieter in the lower tiers, I hope that the fact that each is distinct will continue to attract a stream of lower tier alts. Again, this isn't WoW, where lower level content only exists to drive players towards the endgame. Pace yourself, and there's a lot of fun to be had at each pause along the way.

how dependent is WAR on gear? 

Pretty intensely... if you've got good gear you'll feel the advantage over someone who doesn't. That said, at least at the beginning, quality gear is pretty easy to get. Work up your influence at public quests, nice gear rewards. Complete public quests, nice gear rewards. Get your Reknown up via PvP, inexpensive gear available from Reknown merchants. Random good-quality gear drops on enemy corpses during regular PvE AND PvP...

...and, again, it's class specific... so if you're in a large, mixed group folks are typically willing to trade it around.

I'm prepared for the endgame to be grindtastic, but in the meantime this game ISN'T JUST ABOUT THE ENDGAME.

That's what you get for being an Alb. :P

Gotta admit I'm thoroughly enjoying the lower level PvP so far - don't know if it's just early in the game's life or what but advancing to each new tier is somewhat of a tenative step as you're leaving behind everything you know about the PvP environments.  In that respect it is definetely not like WoW as there's a lot more Scenario / Battlegrounds, etc.  Doubtful there's going to be enough of a population base to sustain anything but "the most optimal renown factories" at lower levels.

Aren't all MMOs really just about the endgame?  I'm being serious here. The early content and shiny is there and gone quick.. There is a reason most MMOs 1-max level is considered a grind.

Would you level a class you know is gimped in the endgame? Leveling usually isn't all that fun. Endgame of course matters.

Halfway to max level, is the game feeling grindy at all yet? The PVP feeling 'grindy'? If not, I might consider it at the 1 month mark.

Fuck, I don't know. Its been like a week and you are already saying the endgame is going to be grindtastic...does that bode well for the game?

I say grind too much.

To be honest, if they took collision detection, let you level from PvP at a decent clip and copied the BG maps over to WoW, WoW would be an immensly better game.

Of course, that's tantamount to saying that if they took everything good about this and took it to WoW, then WoW would be superior, which is hardly a convincing argument.

The sad truth it, aside from the collision detection (which doesn't work all that great with the laggy servers), WoW is moving much closer to this state by removing PvP grind  (LWG is decently fun and amazing honor and arena points) while throwing around epix like candy.

This game isn't like WoW, but it could probably stand to get some of the same polish.

Your opinion here is highly subjective. I know many players who view things opposite of you. Lots of my friends get pissed off when the journey to end game material isnt long enough or engaging enough. You have to keep in mind not everyone shares your view about grind.

This is the first MMO I havn't felt the need to play play play as fast as I can to get to max level.  I'm actually enjoying the leveling process some.

Oh yes... find the lairs in the game.  I read somewhere that there was a lair in the empire/order maps in T1 that needed one of each race (from your side) to stand on some symbols to unlock a door to get to a quicky bossmob single room dungeon.  Get some blue lootz from it.

Interesting, I havn't seen one yet in game.

Schild tried to get us to do one in The Blighted Isles.  It was level 40. Our deaths were quick.  Looks like lairs are end game content.

The only rush I feel to level in this game is to get to level 8 for RVR. Sure, you get bumped to level 8 in any RVR zones/scenarios, but the lack of all your abilities is definitely felt. But the early game has shittons of content. Whether that holds true to 40 or not, only time will tell.

Before Warpstone went Elder, my sorcerer ran out solo content about rank 36 doing exclusively EvC.  I have no doubt that with DvG and HvD it'll be fine.  But this time around I'll probably do a lot more group content and PvP with Bat Country.

Yeah, I've had to cross-level in other areas for a while now. I don't mind it, the quests are simple enough to where it really isn't any degree of heartache.

I just wish there was a smaller-bracket competitive arena environment with the actual wagering of points, like WoW.

Right now I'm about a level or so short with the last chapter in EvC.  Just hit 18 last night and I'm doing PQs and quests against level 19-20 NPCs.  I'm going to just do some scenarios and rvr until 19 or 20 then finish it out.

I just moved into T3 last night.  What bothered me about T2 and potentially beyond is that the renown gear has several pieces that are "suck".  PQ's and normal exp'ing via PVE is pretty slow, but some of that gear is definitely worth getting. The only problem is PQ's beyond stage 1 are impossible to solo and have few people in them, so people just abandon them and keep restarting stage 1 to get their influence.

I like the game. We hit guild rank 14 a day ago and claimed out first week. It was cool, but losing it right after we all went to sleep sort of sucked.

Good to see you guys are enjoying it though.

I only mention that there'll be grinding later because I've never seen a game that avoided a grindy endgame. If WAR has avoided it, more power to them. I agree that this game needs a better way of getting people into guilds. So much of the "I can't find a group" problem would be solved by mixed-rank guilds for levelers.

Hmmm, well I'm guessing its not too far off from kill X of this and X elves! for advancement. That type of content doesn't compel me, so yes you are correct. If you hook me in a story (no MMO has really done that for me yet, AoC a bit until the bait and switch) than cool, but to just level doing repetitive shit to eventually do....well, repetitive shit....just doesn't have the same draw to me that it used to. Some things they added like PQs sound cool. Maybe I should just consider myself a Sandbox, non-diku guy and give up.

I know, MMOGs are repetitive shit and I should just get used to it. This is probably the first major release that I did not buy at launch, so I am drawn back to ask about it.

Good analysis, but the loot ninja thing is just off. I'm seeing tons of people in PUGs just click 'need' on everything. There are three reasons for that, I think. One is a lack of consequences, so far, because at the moment, guilds are not a major gateway to later content. In WoW and many other games, if you want to do much of the endgame content, you'd better be careful not to get a reputation for being a loot ninja or major asshat, otherwise, you've got no chance to be in the serious PvE raid guilds. At the moment on most Warhammer servers (and this is often true of any MMOG in its first few weeks), nobody really remembers that you ninja'ed an item that you can't even use. Second, a lot of looting in RvR has to happen in the midst of serious chaos, so there are a lot of loot windows popping up in the middle of a battle. Some people just click need because they can't even be bothered to look at the actual item. Finally, some people are trying to level up salvaging, and they need greens to do that--pretty much just like disenchant in WoW except that the failure rate with salvaging is pathetically high. 

I have a feeling a lot of people roll need on everything for the same reason Non rationalized it - Talisman making. That one fucking profession has thrown the entire system into chaos. It needs to be reworked.

Yes and no. Each zone has 2 lairs. One is a level 40 end game mob. The other is in the RVR  lakes and is a mob that will usually drop decent loot for the next tier. For instance, the level 11 lair boss in the nordland rve lake drops rank 20ish blue gear.

Quick, but GLORIOUS.

I was thinking I'd make a new thread, but screw it.

WAR has put the Trinity in PvP. Tank, Healer, DPS is alive and well and works to the point that you'd be as foolish going into a scenario with an inappropriate ratio thereof as you would going into a PQ with the same. I've seen an number of PvP encounters which go EXACTLY the same way that dungeon running goes in other games. People are trying to kill the healer, but he detaunts and the tank taunts so they change directions and start beating the tank to death... then some DPS pulls aggro and not only dies but runs the healer out of action points so he dies too.

It's uncanny.

I was gonna start a new thread for this but screw it.  I just found out the sky was blue today, thought you guys should know.

Don't understand the snark here, honestly. The 'trinity' *doesn't* translate into PVP in most other MMOs, because tanks are ineffective. (And no, an arms warrior with a skillherald is not a tank.)

I must credit mythic with their ability to integrate taunt and detaunt, normally a useless skill in PVP into something that actually has a use. 30% added bonus dmg for 15 second is huge. -50% Dmg taken is noticable as well. And having a tank and a healer draw attention before the melee dps like white lions and witch hunters hop in on the healers is also huge.

WAR is the first MMO I've ever played where tanks actually work in PVP. I love playing my black orc. Most of the time I'm protecting my group mates by blocking the opposing melee DPS to get to them. Witch hunter going after a shaman? I park my ass between them and the shaman can get range and heal up. Add taunt to that, and the bugger better hit me a few times or I'm gonna make mince meat out of him. Great way to rape healers as well. Run up to them and taunt, they're going down unless they start healing themselves or run away (or their other healers have to focus on him, letting rest of my team kill the others).

The other cool thing is the skill-that-protects-everyone-behind-you. Whenever PVP degenerates into two zergs shooting stuff at each other, get to the front row, pop the skill and hello +45% dodge to everybody behind me. It's also insanely fun In Gates of Ekrund to block the dwarf zerg in one of the narrow corridors: "You shall not pass!" And there's of course the split-damage-between-friendly-skill that helps squishy casters and melee DPS when they draw attention from the stunties.

In WoW warriors are just melee DPS in PVP, but in WAR they're tanks.

Tanks are awesome in this game, it's a damn shame Order doesn't have any cool ones.  I'd like to buy a Knight of the Burning Sun please.

I really, really like Iron Breaker.  Black Orc is my favorite on Destruction so far.

My Black Orc is a blast to play. Zealot drops regen on me and lets me off the leash to go rampage amongst the Order.

Overall my impression on Chosen has been good. I played one to 16 and the funny thing is the Destro guild I was in told me not to expect too much since Orders gets so much knockbacks mid T2 and T3 it's quite hard to stay in melee range most of the time. But I don't give a shit, the Scenario play was a blast with assist trains and spamming Taunts, Tooth of Tzeentch, Twisting Aura  and Ravage their faces. Also, Vader armor.

...another way this isn't "like WoW" is that I flamed out in the middle of tier two as the population disappeared, advancement slowed to a crawl, and fights got slower and more complicated without getting more fun. I tried a few alts in different classes and realized I couldn't even stand repeating tier one now that, again, the population is gone. After tier two, grouping feels like people are stealing the majority of what pittance of experience and influence I was getting anyway... the healers don't heal and tanks don't tank.  Keep-taking RvR was a lagfest which brought back all the 2fps and CTD problems that had largely disappeared from PvE, and suddenly I don't need to log in anymore. At all.

So I canceled my subscription, and am hoping that the game will magically improve a few months down the line and justify not only what I paid for it but an additional fifteen bucks... though I'm not holding my breath. Even if the Tier 1 experience had lasted all the way through tier 4, then I still would have run into laggy, useless RvR and zergs of awkward, unbalanced classes where we fight through the awesome PvP in order to get to THE ENDGAME PvE RAIDS?!

Done.